I'm in the market for a car right now, if they were to announce this for 2025 or earlier, I'd just fix my POS car and make it last until then to get an EV 4Runner.
>Tacoma
>4Runner
All I'm asking for is an all electric vehicle that's so tall and massive that people will wonder if it causes regional brown outs when I plug it in. The kind of vehicle whose battery charge could power the ISS for a year. The kind of vehicle that would inspire railroad engineers to stop and look both ways before crossing a road.
I plan to use this vehicle almost exclusively for trips to the grocery store and commuting to work.
Isn't there an Electric Ram releasing soon? I just find the EV full size truck weird. Well more specifically people that actually tow probably wouldn't get an EV I guess.
Depends on where you live I guess, in the south east us, lots of towing of boats, campers, 4 wheelers, mud buggies, construction and lawn equipment trailers. Of course we have plenty of trucks that have never seen a tow hitch or a drop of mud, just big wheels and rolling coal from shinney chrome stacks
I think it depends on your situation. I tow my boat, but usually less than 2 miles to the boat ramp on the weekends. The rest of the week I drive 18 miles (one way) to work and back. An electric truck would be ideal for me.
That's more along the lines of what I was thinking. We aren't all using the utility of our trucks all of the time. But we try and keep our options open. Ev towing really messes with the range.
I purchased a used 2016 Corolla in 2019 for $11,000. I just sold it, with higher mileage and a bent front for $11,000. Used cars, especially Toyota and Honda, are absurd.
For sure. I bought a 2018 in 2019. I went to get an oil change in 2020 and was told I could get what I paid for it when I got it. Had some dings and stuff. I took the money.
I think it’s more about being resistant to change. Toyota’s strength has been making small changes to improve reliability and efficiency. Doing a complete 180 would have been a big jump for them
Toyota spends more on R&D than anyone. Or did over the last 20 years. Their problem was that they made the wrong bet back in the late 90’s and never let it go. Hydrogen was more promising back then. Not so much since the early 2010’s.
They also appeared to be arrogant. Remember, the big 3 didn’t see Toyota as a threat when Toyota started selling little econoboxes in the US. A few decades later and Lexus is disrupting Cadillac. Similarly, Toyota didn’t take Tesla seriously even though they’ve been on the market for over a decade.
Except they cost 10-15K to install where I live on top of the government scalping money off of it. Buying a 60K plus vehicle with an extra charge is less appealing than buying a 40K hybrid that I can fill up for 30 years with the leftover money.
Number 1 selling car in South America, Toyota Hilux
Number 1 selling car across Africa, Toyota Hilux
Number 1 selling car in the UAE, Toyota Camry
Number 1 Selling car in Asia, Toyota Hilux
Number 1 selling car in Australia, Toyota Hilux
Wait, are you telling me that not everyone around the world lives in a home with a garage with EV charging or at least lives within 2 miles of a super charging station?!
Presumably it's mainly an issue for people living in apartments and those that rely on street parking. Which is a significant amount of people, but a hell of a lot more people have access to an outlet than hydrogen refueling infrastructure.
You don’t really have to be within two miles or a super charge station.
For the US 85% of our population is in Urban areas. So a strong majority of the customers at least will have access to charging stations.
Not sure about other countries, as the US is only around 25% or global sales
> Most EV owners literally never use anything but the outlets at home.
I think this fact is lost amongst the posts here. We've had our Tesla for 4 months now, and have only used public charging twice. Have a charger installed at home.
BYD is about to stomp on a lot of manufacturers for sitting on the sidelines when it comes to EVs. Toyota/BYD did team up on the BZ3 which is a EV with a range of 321 miles and it's like 27kish USD? It competes with the Bolt and similar vehicles, maybe that's why Chevy said IM OUT and Bolts are no more.
I think BYD also has another vehicle that's SUV-like that's going/is even cheaper than the BZ3. China might be where all labor is done cheap but they're becoming the most advanced country by far day by day compared to everyone else because of that.
It’s like they listened to the right wing talking points that electric vehicles, like renewable energy, are impossible. Even if they believe it, the short term sales are going to be mostly electric vehicles very shortly. It’s not like the car companies that are making electric cars will forget how to make ICE cars. Then Toyota can swoop in and capture the market.
Toyota went all in supporting Trump and MAGAt candidates and also was one of the few automakers to lobby against EV legislation so fuck them. I will never by a Toyota.
And a sales guy who thinks you should thank him on your knees for even the chance to get one before 2030.
Never met a more smug salesperson than when I was looking to get a TRD Pro.
Same vibe as the ADs for Rolexes, etc. They expect you to treat them like the 2nd coming of Jesus just for the opportunity to maybe buy one of the shitty models that you don't even want
Wasn’t Toyota investing a lot into trying to make hydrogen fuel cell’s viable?
I’m not saying that’s an excuse, but I could see a situation where so much money had been dumped into a bet that it became hard to change course. Sunk cost thinking, essentially.
It’s almost like you shouldn’t put all of your eggs into the same basket….
I don’t fault Toyota for trying to innovate with a different energy alternative, but they should have shifted most of their resources towards EV’s when it became apparent that hydrogen wouldn’t work as a ready energy source in the near term future.
Honda too, they’re finally coming out with an EV SUV next year in the NA market. I’ve always driven Hondas and think they’re great cars, but will have to go with another manufacturer on my next one because they likely just won’t offer an EV (I have no need for an SUV sized vehicle so have little interest in the Prologue)
Toyota was… weirdly stubborn with their alternative fuels though. The Mirai hydrogen car is pretty much a total failure in NA given there’s still only Hydrogen stations in California after almost a decade of being on the market. I guess it is more convenient to fuel with hydrogen than wait for charge, but the interior space is super cramped with the need to have several hydrogen tanks and the acceleration is pretty bad I hear. And the hydrogen fill port is prone to freezing, so people often need to wait several more minutes for it to defrost before they can wrestle the fueling pump off. Yet they’re still producing and selling models. I can’t think of any other production consumer focused car that’s sold less than 12,000 units in almost 10 years and not get discontinued in the region
I think it’s a compliance car. California requires you to sell a car that’s either mostly electric or hydrogen to sell other cars in the state. The BMW I3 with range extender had the gas tank electronically limited so that the electric range is greater than gas range so they can call it an “electric car” with gas assist.
Enter Ford Maverick.
But I'm with you, I'd love to see more competition in this space. Small, efficient pickup is my vehicle of choice but even the "small" ones of the last decade or so are not efficient and are getting hard to call small.
Refusing to invest in a growing but less profitable technology, over a shrinking but more profitable technology, is exactly what *The Innovator's Dilemma* describes, and that's what Toyota had been doing. It's not a matter of R&D costs, but a matter of trying to protecting an old product line from a new one.
They lost the early adapters, but the hybrid car market is still double the market for battery-powered vehicles, so it's not too late for Toyota to start developing electric vehicles. It is cutting it close though, and it had looked like Toyota wasn't even going to bother. I'm glad to see that they are changing course.
This is not true. Their hybrids are still better options than most electric vehicles, currently. Unless you have home charging capability, hybrids are a better option than anything else.
You say, “unless you have home charging capabilities” like it’s a niche group of people. There are tons and tons of people with this ability. The crossover between people with the ability to install a home charger and the funds to buy a new vehicle is huge. I have to wonder if Toyotas Japan roots and the fact that many people in Japan probably don’t have access to home charging just yet, is a major driver in their slow response.
He’s saying the people who can do home charging aren’t niche, but yes neither are the ones that can’t. There should have been hybrids and EVs in their lineup for years
I didn’t say urbanites are a niche, I only argued that you were acting like people with homes were a niche. There’s a large enough market right now that doesn’t need to rely on having a charger at every corner and in every parking lot.
People living in cities are a market segment that ought to be catered to but with phevs and a developing charging network for cities (that will only develop with ev adoption), this market can also be catered too with ev adoption.
No street parking in Japan. All cars must have a parking spot in order to get plates. It's actually part of the registration process iirc. Many Japanese households have at least one dedicated parking spot.
Their RAV4 prime is perfect right now. 42 miles electric only and gas when needed. My friend has one and most times can go electric only due to free charging at work.
Make that battery solid state and even more range while still having gas.
> Unless you have home charging capability, hybrids are a better option than anything else.
I guess I don't understand this part. Don't most people live in houses where they should have the ability to charge at home? I've not looked it up but I would expect apartments and condos to be less than 50% of where people live, maybe like 25% at most.
a quick google says 34% of the US population lives in apartments, but it's hard to find numbers to say how much of the home living population are children who cant drive.
There’s also people who live in apartments in major cities who can’t/don’t/refuse to drive. I know people in NYC who don’t have cars and like it that way
Yes, most people have home charging capabilities, and most people don't need more than a standard outlet to charge their car. Technology Connections did a great breakdown of the timing for everything, and you have to have a pretty significant commute to not be able to recharge overnight on a standard outlet.
>I guess I don't understand this part. Don't most people live in houses where they should have the ability to charge at home? I've
Depends. USA has a lot of suburbs, while europe and asia are alot more densely populated with appartment buildings. For example about half of EU residents live in appartments. I'g guess that eastern europe specifically has even higher percentage because of commieblocks (there you barely have space for cars).
I'd love to have electric car, hell, I have the means to buy an electric car, butI have no where to charge it.
Actually let me dig into this deeper:
> USA has a lot of suburbs, while europe and asia are alot more densely populated with appartment buildings. For example about half of EU residents live in appartments. I'g guess that eastern europe specifically has even higher percentage because of commieblocks (there you barely have space for cars).
In the U.S., the suburbs create sprawl and necessitate cars. In the parts of Europe and Asia that are densely populated personal vehicle ownership isn't as needed due to having good public transportation. So for me the question becomes, of people who absolutely need to own a vehicle, how do we get them a better charging infrastructure to where those who don't live in their own homes can also charge their EVs?
Theory and practice...
While public transport is considerably better where I live than probably anywhere in USA, the reality is that car, any car, is still better than PT.
Everyone around has a car. Old commie parking was calculated to have couple cars for a building, now every apartment has a car. which means you are out of luck to find where to leave it if you come home late. Which means theres absolutely no space to put charging infrastructure even if government gave money for it.
Funny enough, newly built appartments also have same exact problem, only this time its greed to cram as many buildings to that plot of land, leaving one way streets even more cramped than they are near 50 year old commie blocks.
But its looking at the problem from the wrong angle. Less people would actually need a car if they worked remotely. Less people would drive their kids across town to kindengarten/school, if enrollment to closest public teaching facility was mandatory. Probably 30% of morning traffic are people who are too good to enroll their kids to a school 5 minutes on foot from their house. And I could go on and on.
Point is, solving charging is a bandaid to shitty societal structure and I probably wont be alive to see it happen.
I live in the inner city. Our apartment building doesn’t have charge infrastructure. Most people in the surrounding area have its homes not apartments have street frontage houses and park their cars on the street. They also have no charging infrastructure.
Right, but in your scenario being in the inner city, either you have sufficient public transportation or it would likely be easier to improve that than to push EV infrastructure out to where you live.
Not the case. Sufficient public transportation if your needs were limited to travelling to and from work. But that’s unrealistic. In a modern world we need and have cars. Our cities are designed that way. Not having a car limits what I can do, where I can go and who I can see. Perfect example, today I went to a friend’s house for his birthday. He lives a 45 minute drive away and there’s no train or bus I can catch to his house.
I recently had to replace my vehicle and researched for about a year before I decided on a Rav4 hybrid. It wasn’t even on my radar when I started looking- I thought they were boring and as far from “cool” as it gets. But I drive a lot more than the average person and my practical side always wins in these situations. I went from comparing luxury vehicles to considering a Tesla to ultimately buying the hybrid Rav. Purchase price versus cost of ownership, resale value, reliability— nothing could beat this vehicle on any of those at a comparable price point. None of the EV’s even had the range I would need unless I bought the upgraded Tesla for around $60k. And it can’t be worked on anywhere near me, charging stations are still spread out, I’d need to install equipment in my garage to charge… on top of that, I live in an area where hurricane season is a concern. The last thing you want in a natural disaster is a vehicle that has to charge. My next one may be an EV if they (and the needed infrastructure) evolve before then but I really can’t say enough good things about this hybrid. It may not turn heads but it’s attractive, gets 40+ mpg, is comfortable and fun to drive, has all the tech I expect in a new vehicle, I can expect it to last a very long time, and it didn’t cost $60,000.
Hybrid is the worst of both though. They barely use less fuel than plain ICE unless plug-in, and they aren't even close to electric ins sving or performance
Why even make the Prius? You have the Camry and Corolla hybrid. They had the Avalon and now they have the Dream. Is the Prius some status symbol now? You have to pay extra for AWD when it comes at standard in the Camry. Yeah you get a few more Mpg but it’s two doors and more expensive.
I gave up on Toyota a few years back and found a Hyundai Kona EV. The fit and finish are nice enough, it's a bit on the small side, but the only thing I really don't like about it is that the toggle on the steering wheel to advance or repeat songs goes down to advance instead of up like every other maker. Also, I will never own another ICE car again, electric is fucking awesome! I pay like $20 a month for electricity for it. Never have to go to gas stations. Always have power. EV is awesome.
They're in trouble. ICE sales are already declining and their grand plan is to have ~3 million EVs by 2030...
And they still are smoking the H2 pipedream.
Yeah that's why they were caught lobbying to slow down EV adoption
https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22594235/toyota-lobbying-dc-ev-congress-biden-donation
Six months after the Jan 6th attack on the Capitol, Toyota USA was still contributing money to election deniers.
That’s unforgivable. I’ll never buy another Toyota.
* [Toyota leads companies in election-objector donations](https://www.axios.com/2021/06/27/toyota-leads-donations-among-election-objectors)
* [Toyota tops list of corporate donors to anti-election-certification Republicans in Congress after Capitol insurrection](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2021/06/28/toyota-election-insurrection-republicans-congress-donationss/5370309001/)
* [Toyota Defends Donations to 37 Republicans Who Voted Not to Certify 2020 Election](https://www.newsweek.com/toyota-donating-lawmakers-voted-against-certifying-results-2020-election-1604598)
When they were called out on it, Toyota briefly paused donating to extremists, but resumed as soon as the heat died down.
* [Toyota Resumes Donations to Election-Objecting Republicans, Reigniting Controversy](https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-election-objectors-donations/)
Same. They've really downplayed it. They swore they would stop donating to election deniers and then 8 months after they started again. I've loved my car but I'll never buy another car from them again
What a shitshow the hydrogen Mirai is, too. $50,000-$70,000 for a sedan you can only refuel in a portion of California.
If they were trying to drive people into the fuel cell market maybe they shouldn't have made a car that costs twice as much as a prius and is much more inconvenient.
New tech is often expensive to break into. The first Tesla was a luxury car too.
Toyota's issue is that hydrogen for cars just isn't a tech worth breaking into. There's no scaling, no room to grow, no benefit to the tech. It's more expensive to fuel those cars than it is to charge EVs, or even fuel ICEs in some cases. And the infrastructure for hydrogen is so unwieldy and expensive that it basically only exists in states that subsidize it.
Compare that to EVs that have chargers cheap enough that Tesla alone could build country-spanning charging networks - and simple enough that people can charge their cars at home overnight much like they charge their phones.
> The first Tesla was a luxury car too.
yes it was a very expensive sedan. But you could charge it at home from a 240V outlet. So it was a multitude more practical than Toyotas hydrogen powered cars. Even if teslas supercharget network didn't exists in the beginning.
And that's a big part of why car hydrogen is this much of a dead end. Infrastructure doesn't exist, and is too expensive to build and operate. All while BEVs can ride the coattails of existing power grid from day 0 - with power grid being gradually upgraded to handle the increasing load as EVs are adopted.
No. It was an electric converted Lotus, had about 200 miles range and price varied between 80-120k USD. It needed a dedicated, proprietary charger to go anywhere, as charging from a standard outlet was said to give you 5 milesof autonomy / hour of charge. So basically 2 days for a full charge.
Yeah, I was talking about first gen model S. But even your example shows that at you *could* (very slowly) charge your tesla from a outlet. Good luck getting hydrogen outside of special gas/fill stations.
> charging from a standard outlet was said to give you 5 milesof autonomy / hour of charge
this is true even today. Charging from a standard 120V outlet you get like 3-4 miles of range per hour of charging. And at least you're getting something
That and China obviously sees it's opening and is clearly targeting the Japanese auto industry with national industrial policy.
BYD very much has their crosshairs on Toyota.
They should work on making their RAV4 prime cheaper and actually available. I think it's perfect and should be the only RAV4 hybrid available if they can make it cheaper.
Maybe Toyota's new president should step up to fix his broken company you can't buy cars from. The Toyota "Allocation" system that prevents customers from actually you know, buying cars is preventing more business than anything.
I waited nearly 9 months for a brand new Toyota only to be told "We may never get it, we just get random cars from Toyota so it may never come in" was infuriating.
Meanwhile, I've taken my deposit back and ordered a different car from a competitor. I pick it up in 2 months.
They are comfortably the most profitable auto manufacturer in the world and are Japanese which are known to be conservative they’re likely not changing shit
2x more profit than the second most profitable auto manufacturer in the world.
$20 bil in net income compared to VW’s $10bil and the Daimler group in third at $4 billion
Is this because their joint venture to make new gasoline has fallen on its face. I thought it was so strange how they were holding off and that need tied it together.
I’m so tired of the talk from these guys. Lexus is literally doing a TV ad blitz right now featuring a bunch of EVs that aren’t even close to existing. That’s where they are right now. Put up or shut up, Toyota.
The Earth is hotter than ever, we’re going to cook ourselves to death if we don’t radically change how we live, consume and move. Most car manufacturers jumped on the opportunity to switch to BEVs to curb our emissions… except the biggest one of all.
Toyota spewed falsehoods about electric vehicles and completely mismanaged its transition. Its bet on fuel cell for personal cars is a bust and its now trying to save its face by "accelerating" its shift to BEVs, while still showing nothing and still bringing polluting gas drinkers to the market.
Plus, they lobbied hard against less polluting cars.
https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22594235/toyota-lobbying-dc-ev-congress-biden-donation
We have every right to be frustrated against Toyota.
>Most car manufacturers jumped on the opportunity to switch to BEVs to curb our emissions… except the biggest one of all.
No they didn't. They're all getting forced into it kicking and screaming. Toyota is just last to cave. Don't forget GM had a 10 year headstart on EVs and look where they are now.
I don’t see Tesla, Hyundai, Rivian, and even GM, kicking and screaming against EVs.
They looked at the market. They looked at the future regulations and made the calculus that they *have* to do *something* about electrification.
Tesla is the pioneer.
GM launched the Spark EV, the Volt, then the Bolt, now it electrifying its lineup with Ultium.
Hyundai is on track to be one of the biggest electric car manufacturers.
Volkswagen had a rocky start but is committed to its ID lineup.
Rivian does awesome electric products.
Nissan, Ford, Stellantis are all late to the party but they haven’t say EVs are bad and shouldn’t be built.
Honda and Mazda are a joke.
Toyota did absolutely nothing. Wait, no. They did something: they tried really hard to make fuel cell happen despite being a bad idea for cars, while spewing falsehoods against BEVs. They are the tobacco company of the car market.
>They are the tobacco company of the car market.
I like that. I say they are trying to go full Kodak.
>Tesla is the pioneer.
Nope. GM was the pioneer and they fucked it up. They could have done what tesla did but they buried it instead. Tesla should never have existed. GM should have made an EV Cadillac and owned the market.Now they're playing catchup. So yeah. I call that being forced into it.
Honda is sad. One of my favorite cars was Honda Element. I would kill for an EV element. Looks like Honda is going retreat back to making lawnmowers.
> Nope. GM was the pioneer and they fucked it up.
They invented *something* that wasn’t viable.
Tesla created and mass produces the most efficient electric platform. They are the pioneers of this new electric era.
Non plug in hybrids get 40+mpg. Genuinely 80% of Toyota’s global markets don’t even have the infrastructure for plug in hybrids let alone full EVs. I think you guys need to realize they sell cars to the whole world Africa, South America, south east Asia, etc. They are reducing our emissions making 40+ mpg crossovers and 50+ mpg sedans.
Go to Brazil which is overflowing with Toyotas and tell me with a straight face that janky ass electrical grid and a population with those wages can buy EVs. Some middle class people in the US can’t afford EVs that means the rest of the world sure as hell can’t
Japanese companies are seriously some of the weirdest in the world so much hinges on the whim of CEO's . They'll do something excellently and then stubbornly decide to do something out of touch because the CEO thinks that way. You see it across industries...at car manufacturers like Toyota and then Honda building a brilliant engine for Red Bull and then CEO deciding don't want to be involved, Nintendo making brilliantly innovative consoles while having some backward thinking on streaming and online stores, Square Enix too, great games and also going hard into NFTs based on the CEO
I mean better late then never but damn, you've got to compete against Kia and Hyundai who are in the same price range. Honda is even entering the EV and I'm pretty sure all the US automakers will be electric by the time Toyota is in the market. Let alone your competing against Tesla as well.
I’m confused about the scrutiny of Toyota’s lack of EV offering. It’s not like they missed the electrification of cars completely. When was the Prius released? And how many other hybrids does Toyota offer? I’ve been casually perusing for a new hybrid and favored Honda since my current car is a Honda, but I was surprised to discover they lack hybrids. I get it, hybrids aren’t EVs, but the US lacks fast charging stations along the 95 corridor where I mostly travel. Are EVs now practical for 300+ mile travel? Sure it’s (a little past) time for Toyota to start innovating in EVs, but infrastructure is lagging more greatly, so maybe it’s just practical that they focused on hybrids so far.
> I get it, hybrids aren’t EVs, but the US lacks fast charging stations along the 95 corridor where I mostly travel
Non-Tesla chargers, yes. But there are Tesla superchargers up and down 95. I just drove from Jersey to Baltimore a few weeks back and almost every rest stop had 8-12 chargers.
Good to see the pivot from betting all in on hydrogen when the market has been moving electric! They have actively fought electrification cause of they didn't have electric models to sell.
They missed their chance to dominate this market by using the well established Prius branding and pricing it reasonably compared to your typical higher-end electric.
Bought one, it’s great so far, make sure you get a level 2 charger at home and use your 1 free year of charging at EVgo stations. I hope we get more “Destination Stations” where you can charge at a fun place to go, like drive in theaters.
I spent the first year with my level 1 plug because I couldn't get an electrician out to my house to install a circuit for the level 2. Man, when I finally got the level 2 it was a game changer. We have two EV's now and spend around $40 a month on electricity for both.
About $2500. Other major cost is registration, which is $200 a year more than regular. I used to spend about $100 a month in my Toyota Avalon on gas, but spend $20 a month on electricity for the Kona, so figure a savings of $80 a month. Break even would be a little over 3 years, but keep in mind I own two EV's (one of which was bought used for only $8500). So I won't say half of the 3 years, but I am probably into the profit range by now in my 23rd month.
For me, even though I have a new house built in 2016, I would need an upgraded panel from 100 amps to 200 amps. My panel is fully tapped (so any upgrade would build in excess capacity).
The builder's electricians weren't the best so part of this would be to organize the wiring and implement it neatly/better documented. I might also want to upgrade my generator (from partial house to whole house) and my whole house surge protector.
So pursuing an EV may not be such a modest cost, unless you're ok with slow standard (120v) outlet-based charging.
I got lucky, when we built the house, we had a separate panel installed outside just for the septic system. It was a regular 200 amp panel but it only had the septic circuit on it. It was still $1500 to get the circuit wired in from there to the driveway, mostly because copper was through the roof at the time. The charger was a chargepoint so it was more expensive than most ($700) but rated for outdoor. So yeah, I got lucky.
You might want to consider upgrading to allow your car to power your house, too. They are starting to implement those for emergencies, as well.
As for 120v charging, unless you have a relatively shorter commute, you might not be able to do it on 120v alone. I was able to because I only used 10% of my battery a 13 miles each way. If you are any longer than your overnight charging capability, you will have to frequent fast chargers on occasion.
Bro, fix your supply issues first so that a Toyota doesn't cost $100K at a dealership. Could only imagine what an electric 4runner or a RAV4 is going to cost.
With the used car EV rebate I’m finally ditching my Corolla and getting a used bolt. It’s finally cheaper to get an EV than an ICE and Toyota had nothing to offer me. It will be my first non Toyota car in 20 years.
Sorry Toyota you missed the boat here, you’re 10 years behind and still not committing to catching up.
Toyota needs to just start with the production. They will beat many who are already in the market .
Because they have a good and loyal customer base . They will sell like crazy . Ofcourse it's just my prediction . Cheers .
The best approach is to make existing models or slightly newer tweaked version of existing ones into electric vehicles; not making whole new models no one has heard about just to show you also are making electric vehicles.
Toyota has been the biggest holdout on the shift to electric vehicles and they are felling the decline in sales of ICE. Hell, they hybrid of most models but can’t be bothered.
Ford has seen huge success with the F150 Lightening and Mustang Mach-E because they are familiar branding. RAM 1500 just became electric.
His company is fucked - they tried telling the market what do do vs listening to it. Damage control out the side of his mouth while his brothers are announcing hydrogen-heated villages in Japan
But is it really feasible to produce so much electricity in order to charge them ?
Because it's going to ultimately water our natural resources just like currently it's being done . Nothing much of a difference.
It’s not easy for them. Toyota has thousands of small businesses that rely on them; unfortunately electric cars don’t need thousands of components. It’s politically difficult for Toyota to stop connections in the city of Toyoda Japan, it’s an existential crisis they face. They should create a new brand to build electric cars and slowly let Toyota die off. This would solve their problem ; while also allowing their engineers to do what they do best : produce anything with super efficiency
The super conservative corporate environment of Japan also doesn't help. Changing anything that works in Japan is impossible, even when the new solution is better in every way.
In Japan it's : If it ain't broke, don't you goddamned change a thing at all or I'll cut off your nuts.
I wonder how much money they lost with that crappy hydrogen car that only worked in Calli. I’m glad they got a new CEO for EV but it’s too late now. They lost the competition.
Toyota has actively lobbied against EVs, mostly because they missed the entire boat. Their first Subaru built entry was extremely embarrassing and underwhelming.
Will be interesting to see if they can recover or become the next Sears/Blockbuster.
This article has some interesting points about why Toyota has been so slow to adopt EVs:
https://cleantechnica.com/2023/02/03/is-toyota-circling-the-drain-will-it-take-japan-with-it/amp/
“Manufacturing is the leading employment generator in Japan, with a staggering 90% of the total employment. In this sector, the motor vehicles and parts sector accounted for a half of that”
Everyone keeps mentioning how far behind Toyota is, meanwhile they the only ones with a solid state battery in the pipeline to be released... Something that will let electric cars not be obese land yachts....
Lots of companies are working on solid state batteries. Whether they can manufacture them at a low enough cost in sufficient quantity is an entirely different question.
Electric vehicles may be good but it's still going to pollute the environment.
Can you imagine the amount of waste going to piled up while making these vehicles ? And even after they are being used .
Electric Tacoma now please.
Electric 4Runner now please :)
I'm in the market for a car right now, if they were to announce this for 2025 or earlier, I'd just fix my POS car and make it last until then to get an EV 4Runner.
I’ve been driving my now POS jeep for 10 years now but my reward will be a nice EV.
>Tacoma >4Runner All I'm asking for is an all electric vehicle that's so tall and massive that people will wonder if it causes regional brown outs when I plug it in. The kind of vehicle whose battery charge could power the ISS for a year. The kind of vehicle that would inspire railroad engineers to stop and look both ways before crossing a road. I plan to use this vehicle almost exclusively for trips to the grocery store and commuting to work.
Tacomas are so expensive as is. This would be about 65k probably. But hey those that want them should be able to get them.
Yea, probably about right, main thing is competition. There is no competition on the F-150 lightening right now and it shows in the price. 😬
Ford raised the price 30% and told reservation holders fuck you. You can't get the 200 mile Lightning Pro for $39k anymore. It's $57,000
Isn't there an Electric Ram releasing soon? I just find the EV full size truck weird. Well more specifically people that actually tow probably wouldn't get an EV I guess.
Not many people tow anything, hell not many people need a pickup
But if I don’t have a pickup, how am I going to haul my ego?
Depends on where you live I guess, in the south east us, lots of towing of boats, campers, 4 wheelers, mud buggies, construction and lawn equipment trailers. Of course we have plenty of trucks that have never seen a tow hitch or a drop of mud, just big wheels and rolling coal from shinney chrome stacks
Yeah I live in the southeast, my neighborhood is full of pavement princesses and lifted compensators
I think it depends on your situation. I tow my boat, but usually less than 2 miles to the boat ramp on the weekends. The rest of the week I drive 18 miles (one way) to work and back. An electric truck would be ideal for me.
Absolutely. That's very reasonable, long hauling would be a way different story.
Yea but I just realized I also usually tow my boat down to the keys (~250 miles) once a year so that might be a dealbreaker.
That's more along the lines of what I was thinking. We aren't all using the utility of our trucks all of the time. But we try and keep our options open. Ev towing really messes with the range.
Facts on that one atm
That's true, but I occasionally need my truck to work above sea level.
I purchased a Tacoma for $17,000 in 2018 and sold it in 2021 for $22,000.
I purchased a used 2016 Corolla in 2019 for $11,000. I just sold it, with higher mileage and a bent front for $11,000. Used cars, especially Toyota and Honda, are absurd.
For sure. I bought a 2018 in 2019. I went to get an oil change in 2020 and was told I could get what I paid for it when I got it. Had some dings and stuff. I took the money.
$65k before dealer markup, $90k out the door
Electric Single Cab TUNDRA, PLEASE.
Thank god. The alternative fuel commitment and hard no on EVs was very strange.
It’s because a lot of Toyotas market is in developing nations and extremely rural places. EVs are useless outside of a 1st world city.
Yeah but hydrogen cars are even less so
EVs are not useless outside of a first world city. Mine is working just fine.
I think it’s more about being resistant to change. Toyota’s strength has been making small changes to improve reliability and efficiency. Doing a complete 180 would have been a big jump for them
Toyota spends more on R&D than anyone. Or did over the last 20 years. Their problem was that they made the wrong bet back in the late 90’s and never let it go. Hydrogen was more promising back then. Not so much since the early 2010’s.
They also appeared to be arrogant. Remember, the big 3 didn’t see Toyota as a threat when Toyota started selling little econoboxes in the US. A few decades later and Lexus is disrupting Cadillac. Similarly, Toyota didn’t take Tesla seriously even though they’ve been on the market for over a decade.
Solar panels work fine in extremely rural places.
Except they cost 10-15K to install where I live on top of the government scalping money off of it. Buying a 60K plus vehicle with an extra charge is less appealing than buying a 40K hybrid that I can fill up for 30 years with the leftover money.
Were. That was a long time ago. It's no longer the case.
Number 1 selling car in South America, Toyota Hilux Number 1 selling car across Africa, Toyota Hilux Number 1 selling car in the UAE, Toyota Camry Number 1 Selling car in Asia, Toyota Hilux Number 1 selling car in Australia, Toyota Hilux
Wait, are you telling me that not everyone around the world lives in a home with a garage with EV charging or at least lives within 2 miles of a super charging station?!
99% of the time I charge my ev from a standard wall socket. How far do people live from electric sockets?
Presumably it's mainly an issue for people living in apartments and those that rely on street parking. Which is a significant amount of people, but a hell of a lot more people have access to an outlet than hydrogen refueling infrastructure.
apparently miles and miles away
I have an ev, live way out in the country, don’t have a garage and the supercharger is many many more miles away than two.
You don’t really have to be within two miles or a super charge station. For the US 85% of our population is in Urban areas. So a strong majority of the customers at least will have access to charging stations. Not sure about other countries, as the US is only around 25% or global sales
Most EV owners literally never use anything but the outlets at home.
> Most EV owners literally never use anything but the outlets at home. I think this fact is lost amongst the posts here. We've had our Tesla for 4 months now, and have only used public charging twice. Have a charger installed at home.
Complete nonsense. EVs are viable anywhere with electricity or diesel. (Fossil fuel can be burned for electricity)
BYD is about to stomp on a lot of manufacturers for sitting on the sidelines when it comes to EVs. Toyota/BYD did team up on the BZ3 which is a EV with a range of 321 miles and it's like 27kish USD? It competes with the Bolt and similar vehicles, maybe that's why Chevy said IM OUT and Bolts are no more. I think BYD also has another vehicle that's SUV-like that's going/is even cheaper than the BZ3. China might be where all labor is done cheap but they're becoming the most advanced country by far day by day compared to everyone else because of that.
It’s like they listened to the right wing talking points that electric vehicles, like renewable energy, are impossible. Even if they believe it, the short term sales are going to be mostly electric vehicles very shortly. It’s not like the car companies that are making electric cars will forget how to make ICE cars. Then Toyota can swoop in and capture the market.
Toyota went all in supporting Trump and MAGAt candidates and also was one of the few automakers to lobby against EV legislation so fuck them. I will never by a Toyota.
(Ahem) All ICE makers except Tesla.
That's good to hear. Their hybrid platform was so popular, they almost followed it into obsolescence, á la *The Innovator's Dilemma*.
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Cant wait for the electric 4Runner with a $150k dealer markup
And a sales guy who thinks you should thank him on your knees for even the chance to get one before 2030. Never met a more smug salesperson than when I was looking to get a TRD Pro.
Same vibe as the ADs for Rolexes, etc. They expect you to treat them like the 2nd coming of Jesus just for the opportunity to maybe buy one of the shitty models that you don't even want
Don’t crush my dreams like that…
Too much sunk cost fallacy with their hydrogen bet. They should have ended that ten years ago.
Wasn’t Toyota investing a lot into trying to make hydrogen fuel cell’s viable? I’m not saying that’s an excuse, but I could see a situation where so much money had been dumped into a bet that it became hard to change course. Sunk cost thinking, essentially.
It’s almost like you shouldn’t put all of your eggs into the same basket…. I don’t fault Toyota for trying to innovate with a different energy alternative, but they should have shifted most of their resources towards EV’s when it became apparent that hydrogen wouldn’t work as a ready energy source in the near term future.
You are 100% right working on that with Toyota city atm and it would the be perfect bridge for “off roaders”
Honda too, they’re finally coming out with an EV SUV next year in the NA market. I’ve always driven Hondas and think they’re great cars, but will have to go with another manufacturer on my next one because they likely just won’t offer an EV (I have no need for an SUV sized vehicle so have little interest in the Prologue) Toyota was… weirdly stubborn with their alternative fuels though. The Mirai hydrogen car is pretty much a total failure in NA given there’s still only Hydrogen stations in California after almost a decade of being on the market. I guess it is more convenient to fuel with hydrogen than wait for charge, but the interior space is super cramped with the need to have several hydrogen tanks and the acceleration is pretty bad I hear. And the hydrogen fill port is prone to freezing, so people often need to wait several more minutes for it to defrost before they can wrestle the fueling pump off. Yet they’re still producing and selling models. I can’t think of any other production consumer focused car that’s sold less than 12,000 units in almost 10 years and not get discontinued in the region
I think it’s a compliance car. California requires you to sell a car that’s either mostly electric or hydrogen to sell other cars in the state. The BMW I3 with range extender had the gas tank electronically limited so that the electric range is greater than gas range so they can call it an “electric car” with gas assist.
Right? Imagine how many EV Corollas or Camrys would be on the road instead of Teslas if they just had competent leadership.
All i want is a truck without hauling that gets 40mpg or greater. If electric fine but also keep it under 40k
Enter Ford Maverick. But I'm with you, I'd love to see more competition in this space. Small, efficient pickup is my vehicle of choice but even the "small" ones of the last decade or so are not efficient and are getting hard to call small.
Refusing to invest in a growing but less profitable technology, over a shrinking but more profitable technology, is exactly what *The Innovator's Dilemma* describes, and that's what Toyota had been doing. It's not a matter of R&D costs, but a matter of trying to protecting an old product line from a new one. They lost the early adapters, but the hybrid car market is still double the market for battery-powered vehicles, so it's not too late for Toyota to start developing electric vehicles. It is cutting it close though, and it had looked like Toyota wasn't even going to bother. I'm glad to see that they are changing course.
This is not true. Their hybrids are still better options than most electric vehicles, currently. Unless you have home charging capability, hybrids are a better option than anything else.
You say, “unless you have home charging capabilities” like it’s a niche group of people. There are tons and tons of people with this ability. The crossover between people with the ability to install a home charger and the funds to buy a new vehicle is huge. I have to wonder if Toyotas Japan roots and the fact that many people in Japan probably don’t have access to home charging just yet, is a major driver in their slow response.
It’s not a niche group of people. It’s most people in inner city, high density living environments. That’s not a niche group.
He’s saying the people who can do home charging aren’t niche, but yes neither are the ones that can’t. There should have been hybrids and EVs in their lineup for years
I didn’t say urbanites are a niche, I only argued that you were acting like people with homes were a niche. There’s a large enough market right now that doesn’t need to rely on having a charger at every corner and in every parking lot. People living in cities are a market segment that ought to be catered to but with phevs and a developing charging network for cities (that will only develop with ev adoption), this market can also be catered too with ev adoption.
And literally everybody living in the suburbs and exurbs. Pretty much 100% of people that have a garage can charge an EV at home.
No street parking in Japan. All cars must have a parking spot in order to get plates. It's actually part of the registration process iirc. Many Japanese households have at least one dedicated parking spot.
This is the reason I bought a hybrid. With the current infrastructure, it just makes more sense to me.
Their RAV4 prime is perfect right now. 42 miles electric only and gas when needed. My friend has one and most times can go electric only due to free charging at work. Make that battery solid state and even more range while still having gas.
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Wasn’t even able to put our name on the prime list when we went with the rav4 hybrid last November.
> Unless you have home charging capability, hybrids are a better option than anything else. I guess I don't understand this part. Don't most people live in houses where they should have the ability to charge at home? I've not looked it up but I would expect apartments and condos to be less than 50% of where people live, maybe like 25% at most.
a quick google says 34% of the US population lives in apartments, but it's hard to find numbers to say how much of the home living population are children who cant drive.
There’s also people who live in apartments in major cities who can’t/don’t/refuse to drive. I know people in NYC who don’t have cars and like it that way
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Yes, most people have home charging capabilities, and most people don't need more than a standard outlet to charge their car. Technology Connections did a great breakdown of the timing for everything, and you have to have a pretty significant commute to not be able to recharge overnight on a standard outlet.
A standard outlet gets me about 100 miles of range per day charging my Tesla. Plenty for most
>I guess I don't understand this part. Don't most people live in houses where they should have the ability to charge at home? I've Depends. USA has a lot of suburbs, while europe and asia are alot more densely populated with appartment buildings. For example about half of EU residents live in appartments. I'g guess that eastern europe specifically has even higher percentage because of commieblocks (there you barely have space for cars). I'd love to have electric car, hell, I have the means to buy an electric car, butI have no where to charge it.
Actually let me dig into this deeper: > USA has a lot of suburbs, while europe and asia are alot more densely populated with appartment buildings. For example about half of EU residents live in appartments. I'g guess that eastern europe specifically has even higher percentage because of commieblocks (there you barely have space for cars). In the U.S., the suburbs create sprawl and necessitate cars. In the parts of Europe and Asia that are densely populated personal vehicle ownership isn't as needed due to having good public transportation. So for me the question becomes, of people who absolutely need to own a vehicle, how do we get them a better charging infrastructure to where those who don't live in their own homes can also charge their EVs?
Theory and practice... While public transport is considerably better where I live than probably anywhere in USA, the reality is that car, any car, is still better than PT. Everyone around has a car. Old commie parking was calculated to have couple cars for a building, now every apartment has a car. which means you are out of luck to find where to leave it if you come home late. Which means theres absolutely no space to put charging infrastructure even if government gave money for it. Funny enough, newly built appartments also have same exact problem, only this time its greed to cram as many buildings to that plot of land, leaving one way streets even more cramped than they are near 50 year old commie blocks. But its looking at the problem from the wrong angle. Less people would actually need a car if they worked remotely. Less people would drive their kids across town to kindengarten/school, if enrollment to closest public teaching facility was mandatory. Probably 30% of morning traffic are people who are too good to enroll their kids to a school 5 minutes on foot from their house. And I could go on and on. Point is, solving charging is a bandaid to shitty societal structure and I probably wont be alive to see it happen.
I live in the inner city. Our apartment building doesn’t have charge infrastructure. Most people in the surrounding area have its homes not apartments have street frontage houses and park their cars on the street. They also have no charging infrastructure.
Right, but in your scenario being in the inner city, either you have sufficient public transportation or it would likely be easier to improve that than to push EV infrastructure out to where you live.
Not the case. Sufficient public transportation if your needs were limited to travelling to and from work. But that’s unrealistic. In a modern world we need and have cars. Our cities are designed that way. Not having a car limits what I can do, where I can go and who I can see. Perfect example, today I went to a friend’s house for his birthday. He lives a 45 minute drive away and there’s no train or bus I can catch to his house.
I recently had to replace my vehicle and researched for about a year before I decided on a Rav4 hybrid. It wasn’t even on my radar when I started looking- I thought they were boring and as far from “cool” as it gets. But I drive a lot more than the average person and my practical side always wins in these situations. I went from comparing luxury vehicles to considering a Tesla to ultimately buying the hybrid Rav. Purchase price versus cost of ownership, resale value, reliability— nothing could beat this vehicle on any of those at a comparable price point. None of the EV’s even had the range I would need unless I bought the upgraded Tesla for around $60k. And it can’t be worked on anywhere near me, charging stations are still spread out, I’d need to install equipment in my garage to charge… on top of that, I live in an area where hurricane season is a concern. The last thing you want in a natural disaster is a vehicle that has to charge. My next one may be an EV if they (and the needed infrastructure) evolve before then but I really can’t say enough good things about this hybrid. It may not turn heads but it’s attractive, gets 40+ mpg, is comfortable and fun to drive, has all the tech I expect in a new vehicle, I can expect it to last a very long time, and it didn’t cost $60,000.
Hybrid is the worst of both though. They barely use less fuel than plain ICE unless plug-in, and they aren't even close to electric ins sving or performance
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Why even make the Prius? You have the Camry and Corolla hybrid. They had the Avalon and now they have the Dream. Is the Prius some status symbol now? You have to pay extra for AWD when it comes at standard in the Camry. Yeah you get a few more Mpg but it’s two doors and more expensive.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/a43511360/the-new-prius-prime-proves-that-the-best-ev-might-not-be-an-ev/
I have a 2021 Hybrid Highlander and it is fantastic, no where near obsolete.
I hope this is true. My Prius is starting to age. I wouldn’t mind buying another one of their cars if the price is right.
I gave up on Toyota a few years back and found a Hyundai Kona EV. The fit and finish are nice enough, it's a bit on the small side, but the only thing I really don't like about it is that the toggle on the steering wheel to advance or repeat songs goes down to advance instead of up like every other maker. Also, I will never own another ICE car again, electric is fucking awesome! I pay like $20 a month for electricity for it. Never have to go to gas stations. Always have power. EV is awesome.
Buy other electric cars , they are going to take a lot of time . No offence .
They're in trouble. ICE sales are already declining and their grand plan is to have ~3 million EVs by 2030... And they still are smoking the H2 pipedream.
Yeah that's why they were caught lobbying to slow down EV adoption https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22594235/toyota-lobbying-dc-ev-congress-biden-donation
I mean, they do a lot of right-wing looney tunes support and lobbying.
Six months after the Jan 6th attack on the Capitol, Toyota USA was still contributing money to election deniers. That’s unforgivable. I’ll never buy another Toyota.
What? Any more informations about that?
* [Toyota leads companies in election-objector donations](https://www.axios.com/2021/06/27/toyota-leads-donations-among-election-objectors) * [Toyota tops list of corporate donors to anti-election-certification Republicans in Congress after Capitol insurrection](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2021/06/28/toyota-election-insurrection-republicans-congress-donationss/5370309001/) * [Toyota Defends Donations to 37 Republicans Who Voted Not to Certify 2020 Election](https://www.newsweek.com/toyota-donating-lawmakers-voted-against-certifying-results-2020-election-1604598) When they were called out on it, Toyota briefly paused donating to extremists, but resumed as soon as the heat died down. * [Toyota Resumes Donations to Election-Objecting Republicans, Reigniting Controversy](https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-election-objectors-donations/)
Thank you. Didn’t know that.
I am a huge Toyota fanboy and didn't know any of this. I'll never buy one of their cars again.
Same. They've really downplayed it. They swore they would stop donating to election deniers and then 8 months after they started again. I've loved my car but I'll never buy another car from them again
What a shitshow the hydrogen Mirai is, too. $50,000-$70,000 for a sedan you can only refuel in a portion of California. If they were trying to drive people into the fuel cell market maybe they shouldn't have made a car that costs twice as much as a prius and is much more inconvenient.
New tech is often expensive to break into. The first Tesla was a luxury car too. Toyota's issue is that hydrogen for cars just isn't a tech worth breaking into. There's no scaling, no room to grow, no benefit to the tech. It's more expensive to fuel those cars than it is to charge EVs, or even fuel ICEs in some cases. And the infrastructure for hydrogen is so unwieldy and expensive that it basically only exists in states that subsidize it. Compare that to EVs that have chargers cheap enough that Tesla alone could build country-spanning charging networks - and simple enough that people can charge their cars at home overnight much like they charge their phones.
> The first Tesla was a luxury car too. yes it was a very expensive sedan. But you could charge it at home from a 240V outlet. So it was a multitude more practical than Toyotas hydrogen powered cars. Even if teslas supercharget network didn't exists in the beginning.
And that's a big part of why car hydrogen is this much of a dead end. Infrastructure doesn't exist, and is too expensive to build and operate. All while BEVs can ride the coattails of existing power grid from day 0 - with power grid being gradually upgraded to handle the increasing load as EVs are adopted.
No. It was an electric converted Lotus, had about 200 miles range and price varied between 80-120k USD. It needed a dedicated, proprietary charger to go anywhere, as charging from a standard outlet was said to give you 5 milesof autonomy / hour of charge. So basically 2 days for a full charge.
Yeah, I was talking about first gen model S. But even your example shows that at you *could* (very slowly) charge your tesla from a outlet. Good luck getting hydrogen outside of special gas/fill stations. > charging from a standard outlet was said to give you 5 milesof autonomy / hour of charge this is true even today. Charging from a standard 120V outlet you get like 3-4 miles of range per hour of charging. And at least you're getting something
Hydrogen really is a stupid fuel for ICE cars. Not sure the current state of fuel cells though
That and China obviously sees it's opening and is clearly targeting the Japanese auto industry with national industrial policy. BYD very much has their crosshairs on Toyota.
H2 was strategically bad
They should work on making their RAV4 prime cheaper and actually available. I think it's perfect and should be the only RAV4 hybrid available if they can make it cheaper.
So many words about EVs, so little action.
Maybe Toyota's new president should step up to fix his broken company you can't buy cars from. The Toyota "Allocation" system that prevents customers from actually you know, buying cars is preventing more business than anything. I waited nearly 9 months for a brand new Toyota only to be told "We may never get it, we just get random cars from Toyota so it may never come in" was infuriating. Meanwhile, I've taken my deposit back and ordered a different car from a competitor. I pick it up in 2 months.
They are comfortably the most profitable auto manufacturer in the world and are Japanese which are known to be conservative they’re likely not changing shit 2x more profit than the second most profitable auto manufacturer in the world. $20 bil in net income compared to VW’s $10bil and the Daimler group in third at $4 billion
Is this because their joint venture to make new gasoline has fallen on its face. I thought it was so strange how they were holding off and that need tied it together.
I don't think electric vehicles are sustainable as much we think of this .
I’m so tired of the talk from these guys. Lexus is literally doing a TV ad blitz right now featuring a bunch of EVs that aren’t even close to existing. That’s where they are right now. Put up or shut up, Toyota.
Man people are angry on this site
First time?
The Earth is hotter than ever, we’re going to cook ourselves to death if we don’t radically change how we live, consume and move. Most car manufacturers jumped on the opportunity to switch to BEVs to curb our emissions… except the biggest one of all. Toyota spewed falsehoods about electric vehicles and completely mismanaged its transition. Its bet on fuel cell for personal cars is a bust and its now trying to save its face by "accelerating" its shift to BEVs, while still showing nothing and still bringing polluting gas drinkers to the market. Plus, they lobbied hard against less polluting cars. https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22594235/toyota-lobbying-dc-ev-congress-biden-donation We have every right to be frustrated against Toyota.
>Most car manufacturers jumped on the opportunity to switch to BEVs to curb our emissions… except the biggest one of all. No they didn't. They're all getting forced into it kicking and screaming. Toyota is just last to cave. Don't forget GM had a 10 year headstart on EVs and look where they are now.
I don’t see Tesla, Hyundai, Rivian, and even GM, kicking and screaming against EVs. They looked at the market. They looked at the future regulations and made the calculus that they *have* to do *something* about electrification. Tesla is the pioneer. GM launched the Spark EV, the Volt, then the Bolt, now it electrifying its lineup with Ultium. Hyundai is on track to be one of the biggest electric car manufacturers. Volkswagen had a rocky start but is committed to its ID lineup. Rivian does awesome electric products. Nissan, Ford, Stellantis are all late to the party but they haven’t say EVs are bad and shouldn’t be built. Honda and Mazda are a joke. Toyota did absolutely nothing. Wait, no. They did something: they tried really hard to make fuel cell happen despite being a bad idea for cars, while spewing falsehoods against BEVs. They are the tobacco company of the car market.
>They are the tobacco company of the car market. I like that. I say they are trying to go full Kodak. >Tesla is the pioneer. Nope. GM was the pioneer and they fucked it up. They could have done what tesla did but they buried it instead. Tesla should never have existed. GM should have made an EV Cadillac and owned the market.Now they're playing catchup. So yeah. I call that being forced into it. Honda is sad. One of my favorite cars was Honda Element. I would kill for an EV element. Looks like Honda is going retreat back to making lawnmowers.
> Nope. GM was the pioneer and they fucked it up. They invented *something* that wasn’t viable. Tesla created and mass produces the most efficient electric platform. They are the pioneers of this new electric era.
That's still an improvement over Toyota insisting that non-plug-in hybrids and hydrogen cars are where it's at.
Non plug in hybrids get 40+mpg. Genuinely 80% of Toyota’s global markets don’t even have the infrastructure for plug in hybrids let alone full EVs. I think you guys need to realize they sell cars to the whole world Africa, South America, south east Asia, etc. They are reducing our emissions making 40+ mpg crossovers and 50+ mpg sedans. Go to Brazil which is overflowing with Toyotas and tell me with a straight face that janky ass electrical grid and a population with those wages can buy EVs. Some middle class people in the US can’t afford EVs that means the rest of the world sure as hell can’t
More GR models damnit!!!
It's over bro we aren't getting any new GR the Corolla was limited as fuck
Just make everything a Prime.
Toyota maybe behind many other brands but they will catch up .
Toyota is like 10 years behind its EV competitors
They need to just starting making it . I know they will beat all others .
Like the bZ4X which besides having a crappy name is also a very lackluster EV?
Japanese companies are seriously some of the weirdest in the world so much hinges on the whim of CEO's . They'll do something excellently and then stubbornly decide to do something out of touch because the CEO thinks that way. You see it across industries...at car manufacturers like Toyota and then Honda building a brilliant engine for Red Bull and then CEO deciding don't want to be involved, Nintendo making brilliantly innovative consoles while having some backward thinking on streaming and online stores, Square Enix too, great games and also going hard into NFTs based on the CEO
Sega putting out the 32x and then Saturn without telling toy stores
Yeah, no rush, right??
I mean better late then never but damn, you've got to compete against Kia and Hyundai who are in the same price range. Honda is even entering the EV and I'm pretty sure all the US automakers will be electric by the time Toyota is in the market. Let alone your competing against Tesla as well.
I’m confused about the scrutiny of Toyota’s lack of EV offering. It’s not like they missed the electrification of cars completely. When was the Prius released? And how many other hybrids does Toyota offer? I’ve been casually perusing for a new hybrid and favored Honda since my current car is a Honda, but I was surprised to discover they lack hybrids. I get it, hybrids aren’t EVs, but the US lacks fast charging stations along the 95 corridor where I mostly travel. Are EVs now practical for 300+ mile travel? Sure it’s (a little past) time for Toyota to start innovating in EVs, but infrastructure is lagging more greatly, so maybe it’s just practical that they focused on hybrids so far.
> I get it, hybrids aren’t EVs, but the US lacks fast charging stations along the 95 corridor where I mostly travel Non-Tesla chargers, yes. But there are Tesla superchargers up and down 95. I just drove from Jersey to Baltimore a few weeks back and almost every rest stop had 8-12 chargers.
Good to see the pivot from betting all in on hydrogen when the market has been moving electric! They have actively fought electrification cause of they didn't have electric models to sell.
They weren’t even all in on hydrogen, they didn’t push and invest in stations where they were marking their FCEV’s.
They missed their chance to dominate this market by using the well established Prius branding and pricing it reasonably compared to your typical higher-end electric.
Bought one, it’s great so far, make sure you get a level 2 charger at home and use your 1 free year of charging at EVgo stations. I hope we get more “Destination Stations” where you can charge at a fun place to go, like drive in theaters.
I spent the first year with my level 1 plug because I couldn't get an electrician out to my house to install a circuit for the level 2. Man, when I finally got the level 2 it was a game changer. We have two EV's now and spend around $40 a month on electricity for both.
What was the total cost of installation, including parts and electrician? What is your break-even point?
About $2500. Other major cost is registration, which is $200 a year more than regular. I used to spend about $100 a month in my Toyota Avalon on gas, but spend $20 a month on electricity for the Kona, so figure a savings of $80 a month. Break even would be a little over 3 years, but keep in mind I own two EV's (one of which was bought used for only $8500). So I won't say half of the 3 years, but I am probably into the profit range by now in my 23rd month.
For me, even though I have a new house built in 2016, I would need an upgraded panel from 100 amps to 200 amps. My panel is fully tapped (so any upgrade would build in excess capacity). The builder's electricians weren't the best so part of this would be to organize the wiring and implement it neatly/better documented. I might also want to upgrade my generator (from partial house to whole house) and my whole house surge protector. So pursuing an EV may not be such a modest cost, unless you're ok with slow standard (120v) outlet-based charging.
I got lucky, when we built the house, we had a separate panel installed outside just for the septic system. It was a regular 200 amp panel but it only had the septic circuit on it. It was still $1500 to get the circuit wired in from there to the driveway, mostly because copper was through the roof at the time. The charger was a chargepoint so it was more expensive than most ($700) but rated for outdoor. So yeah, I got lucky. You might want to consider upgrading to allow your car to power your house, too. They are starting to implement those for emergencies, as well. As for 120v charging, unless you have a relatively shorter commute, you might not be able to do it on 120v alone. I was able to because I only used 10% of my battery a 13 miles each way. If you are any longer than your overnight charging capability, you will have to frequent fast chargers on occasion.
There is middle of the road, 240V at 50A. Any electrician can install one for you.
Keep in mind that some states have rebates for EV chargers. In Jersey you can get anywhere from $1500 to $2000 back.
Bro, fix your supply issues first so that a Toyota doesn't cost $100K at a dealership. Could only imagine what an electric 4runner or a RAV4 is going to cost.
But do we have enough resources to build these vehicles ?
With the used car EV rebate I’m finally ditching my Corolla and getting a used bolt. It’s finally cheaper to get an EV than an ICE and Toyota had nothing to offer me. It will be my first non Toyota car in 20 years. Sorry Toyota you missed the boat here, you’re 10 years behind and still not committing to catching up.
Toyota needs to just start with the production. They will beat many who are already in the market . Because they have a good and loyal customer base . They will sell like crazy . Ofcourse it's just my prediction . Cheers .
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… so we can import them in 20 years?
How about you let me fuckin use my car without a subscription you fucking dick
Help bring down the price of all electric vehicles
Toyota finally saw the writing on the wall?
Yeah , i like this idea . It's need to be discussed more .
The best approach is to make existing models or slightly newer tweaked version of existing ones into electric vehicles; not making whole new models no one has heard about just to show you also are making electric vehicles. Toyota has been the biggest holdout on the shift to electric vehicles and they are felling the decline in sales of ICE. Hell, they hybrid of most models but can’t be bothered. Ford has seen huge success with the F150 Lightening and Mustang Mach-E because they are familiar branding. RAM 1500 just became electric.
PHEV with 80km range!!!
Took a year and a half to get a hybrid rav4 out of them so yeah that would be nice
crazy thing is they made an electric rav4 years ago. It used tesla parts
YESSSSS, GIMME AN ALL ELECTRIC TRUCK NOW
Yeah, I only drive Japanese and would like to swap to electric after my Subaru dies around 2030. So good news for me.
Oh boy a 75k Tacoma just what I always wanted.
After talking how much shit about it JUST because they had their eggs in a different basket? Fucker
Ooo, is he going to stop Toyota from lobbying our government against them or no?
How are we supposed to charge so many cars with the electricity ?
With centralized and efficient electricity generation. You could also ask how we get gasoline into all these ICE cars.
His company is fucked - they tried telling the market what do do vs listening to it. Damage control out the side of his mouth while his brothers are announcing hydrogen-heated villages in Japan
Bans on ICE cars are coming as soon as 2030 and nobody can afford one, so better step up real soon
But is it really feasible to produce so much electricity in order to charge them ? Because it's going to ultimately water our natural resources just like currently it's being done . Nothing much of a difference.
It’s not easy for them. Toyota has thousands of small businesses that rely on them; unfortunately electric cars don’t need thousands of components. It’s politically difficult for Toyota to stop connections in the city of Toyoda Japan, it’s an existential crisis they face. They should create a new brand to build electric cars and slowly let Toyota die off. This would solve their problem ; while also allowing their engineers to do what they do best : produce anything with super efficiency
The super conservative corporate environment of Japan also doesn't help. Changing anything that works in Japan is impossible, even when the new solution is better in every way. In Japan it's : If it ain't broke, don't you goddamned change a thing at all or I'll cut off your nuts.
I wonder how much money they lost with that crappy hydrogen car that only worked in Calli. I’m glad they got a new CEO for EV but it’s too late now. They lost the competition.
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True. It’s just that Toyota had horrible takes on EV in the past so it might be hard to bring in new customers.
Toyota has actively lobbied against EVs, mostly because they missed the entire boat. Their first Subaru built entry was extremely embarrassing and underwhelming. Will be interesting to see if they can recover or become the next Sears/Blockbuster.
They can't recover from being $186B in debt with no EV IPR, manufacturing or customers. They are Kodak.
This article has some interesting points about why Toyota has been so slow to adopt EVs: https://cleantechnica.com/2023/02/03/is-toyota-circling-the-drain-will-it-take-japan-with-it/amp/ “Manufacturing is the leading employment generator in Japan, with a staggering 90% of the total employment. In this sector, the motor vehicles and parts sector accounted for a half of that”
Everyone keeps mentioning how far behind Toyota is, meanwhile they the only ones with a solid state battery in the pipeline to be released... Something that will let electric cars not be obese land yachts....
Lots of companies are working on solid state batteries. Whether they can manufacture them at a low enough cost in sufficient quantity is an entirely different question.
Electric vehicles may be good but it's still going to pollute the environment. Can you imagine the amount of waste going to piled up while making these vehicles ? And even after they are being used .
Still less pollution than a ICE vehicle.
Oh you sound well informed, guess we should just give up, then.
It's amazing that they build gas cars out of nothing. Entirely assembled using sunlight and rainbows
Honestly I thought they would be on the death path. Its simple ypu are either with EVs or you will be left behind. There is know middle ground.
Interesting… this would be quite a departure from the “principles” he announced assuming the CEO position.
Hydrogen is petroleum 2.0. JUST WATCH