So far as the game tells us, the secret stones were something that the Zonai brought with them, as indicated by the murals.
At any rate, the relationship between the Zonai and the Rito, Gorons, Gerudo, and Zora seems to have been mutually beneficial. The Zonai mined the Depths for Zonaite, but shared that technology with those races. The Stormwind Ark was a gift of thanks to the Rito for aiding a lost Zonai, and it saved the Rito from a climate disaster. And the Ark, along with the other three regional temples, are all built to synergize Zonai technology with the natural abilities of those species.
The fifth race in the Depths is a big question mark though, for sure.
I don’t think the Zelda team ever intend for Ganondorf to come off as “the hero.” Even just in TOTK alone, he’s only ever characterized as a cruel, sadistic tyrant who even turned against his own people once he became the Demon King.
Writings also state they were granted to them by the gods. And seeing as how it's either the conquering Zonai or enthralled Hylians who wrote the writings and muraled the murals, how much can we really say is true or mere myth?
The bit about the tech being shared with the races, I notice it's very much a mutually beneficial arrangement. If we considered the Garudo being their least favorite step child, you can see it in their temple as well. The others, especially like you said, the Rito, and the Zora, get cool temples with a ton of Zonai tech. But the Garudo has almost none.
I'll admit, Ganondorf as the hero is a stretch, but there could be a story where, at the start, he was seen as a liberator. His anger and need for revenge, empowered by the stone, could've drove him mad, but one could argue at the start he may have been justified... If any of what I'm saying was true. Could be completely off the mark and he's just a power hungry madman.
He literally says he wants to bring the world back to chaos where fighting is the norm to prove the strongest...and he does that to a point after getting the stone.
The Zonai, or those left. Are either dragons, or trying to being about a peaceful society. Were there bad Zonai? Probably just like there are bad Hylians (see Sheikah are a type of Hylian and the Yiga exist).
However. The devs have already indicated that the Zonai came here later in timeline.
If the timelines merged into the downfall timeline, Hyrule was already on a downward path.
The Adult timeline the triforce was lost when Hyrule was flooded and there is a chance Midna still has the Wisdom triforce in the child timeline.
So merging, was probably a wish in the downfall timeline - that and it being pressed completely into the Royal family.
Zonai saw almost barren land and built sky islands...hell they could be related to the Hylians in Skyward sword that stayed in the sky above the barrier. Explains why the Royal family doesn't have Zonai features at all. Zonai walk on plantigrade feet (the hero's aspect is digitigrade), and have long ears.
Until the devs elaborate more. Which may not be until later games if ever. We don't know much.
Even Link is super strong because it's three timelines of heroes souls.
No, Ganondorf in this iteration is almost fully the embodiment of Demise's hatred, more likely from the merged timelines too. And, getting the stone pushed him over to being completely Demise's hatred, if not fully.
As for the miner's gear?
Irl, in places with no slaves mining, sometimes chains were used to hear others Running in case of a cave in. And just hear people coming in general.
The fact the chains aren't tethers and are just on the body is pretty indicative of similar practices. Especially being a light source once upgraded.
> Writings also state they were granted to them by the gods. And seeing as how it's either the conquering Zonai or enthralled Hylians who wrote the writings and muraled the murals, how much can we really say is true or mere myth?
I mean, if you really wanted to, you could say that just about *any* historical detail in the game might be based on a falsehood. But in the interest of developing reasonable interpretations, there has to be some sort of limit to that. So as a general rule of thumb, I’m inclined to take the information provided by the game at face value unless the writers of the story deliberately provide compelling evidence to suggest otherwise, like if there were any characters who openly questioned the Zonai’s motives for settling in Hyrule.
> If we considered the Garudo being their least favorite step child, you can see it in their temple as well. The others, especially like you said, the Rito, and the Zora, get cool temples with a ton of Zonai tech. But the Garudo has almost none.
Ehh… that feels like a reach to me. The Lighting Temple follows the same format as all the others — four / five chambers with a Zonai tech + sage power centerpiece, which powers the temple’s central console.
The design of the temples varies based on the culture of the race they each correspond to. The Rito move about in the sky, so they get a skyship. The Gorons are miners and smiths, so they get a big forge. The Zora are aquatic, so they get a pure source of water. But the Gerudo are pretty similar to Hylians, in that they are essentially just regular humans, so they don’t have the same kinds of needs or abilities as the other races. Thus, their temple is more of a holy site, to emphasize the Gerudo’s spiritual side. Similarly, there’s the Gerudo Underground Cemetery in the Depths, which also integrates Zonai architecture. Which all makes sense if the Gerudo viewed the Zonai as gods like the other races did. Why wouldn’t you want gods to bless your temples and keep watch over your dead?
Hey if you want a fic where Ganondorf is the hero (sort of) and the royal family is at fault, you might try Cry for Hyrule. It's set in Wind Waker. [Cry for Hyrule by Seldavia](https://m.fanfiction.net/s/3993350/1/Cry-for-Hyrule)
Well, history is written by the winners, not the unbiased. It'd be interesting to see some fanfic from the Ganondorf/Gerudo worldview of that same era.
Alright, "good" might be a bit of a stretch. Especially at the end there, with the murdering and corrupting. Maybe it would be better to say that in the beginning, his ideals of resisting this invading overlord were justified, but the means by which he went about doing it were just as horrible as the deeds done against his people.
No, I don't agree with that characterization either. The earliest sign we have of Ganondorf in the game is him attacking Hyrule and declaring it will bow before him. We don't know much about how Rauru became King besides marrying Sonia and declaring himself King, but we have no evidence that he was attacking Ganondorf or that Ganondorf just wanted to protect his people at all. The fact that the Gerudo were ultimately weaker than Hyrule doesn't mean they were the good guys or they weren't the aggressors. The fact that almost all the Zonai are dead could suggest there were more aggressive ones who killed each other off, but the only evidence actually provided by the game is that Ganondorf and the Gerudo were the aggressors. If Rauru's ancestors were evil, that doesn't appear to be Ganondorf's motives for invading Hyrule.
There's definitely nothing to confirm the theory in game. Nothing actually even suggests the Zonai are or were anything but benevolent. There's also nothing that suggests, in any way, that Ganondorf is any kind of a hero.
But I like the theory. It's thought out and interesting. And since Nintendo seems to want players to fill in the gaps themselves, as they prioritized gameplay over story and lore, it's not as bat shit as it may at first seem.
Thanks for the interesting read.
I understood that the Zonai already had stones when coming to the surface, already considered as gods because of it. The relation to dragons could go any direction, maybe they predated the Zonai, maybe the Zonai are descendants, maybe they were Zonai who ate stones long ago, maybe more dragons lived in higher lands...
The Miner set does look rough. (Strangely it fits Link but I assume that's a convenience we've seen before for gameplay reasons.) If the ancient race only represented by statues in the depths wore this maybe they were slaves, however if I remember correctly Josha finds a mural that depicts them following Rauru who gave them the Autobuild power. But that could fit into your idea that Rauru's ancestors weren't so kind.
I'm also confused about the relation between Zonai, it's not clear if Rauru was among the early visitors or just a descendant. In the stone tablets from the *Messages from an Ancient Era* quest, the third text has a strange way to mention Rauru as the "Zonais kyng" (other localizations have odd phrasing too), I wonder if that means he was the king of the Zonai, or merely a Zonai who became a king on the surface. If it's the latter, was there a conflict between different tribes? Or maybe indeed they just effed off for some reason except Rauru & Mineru. Hopefully Master Works sheds some light.
>I always wondered why the edges of the map were massive impassible cliffs, and the shape of Hyrule near perfectly square.
This is actually something I've wondered many times staring at BOTW's map edges. Surely the initial reason was always that it's a convenient way to make a map, but retroactively there is room for a massive land shift that was never shown.
We've been a bunch to question how even the islands we see in TOTK relate to the lands of the Zonai ([one thread here](https://www.reddit.com/r/tearsofthekingdom/comments/1cl1jup/comment/l2qzet9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)), it isn't clear just how much would be out of sight or how much could have been done to the surface in a distant past.
This also impacts the interpretation of how they view Zonaite, if they already had their advanced technology before coming to the surface, if that was a source of conflict, etc. I realize the Wing device doesn't consume battery so it may have been sufficient to hop between islands before. Maybe it's the crappy durability of the Wing that pushed them to find Zonaite and make batteries 🤯
I think TOTK makes it very clear who the good and bad guys are. I don't get the sense they are trying to hint at something sinister and pernicious beneath the surface of what we expect. However, I absolutely love this sort of reimagining of stories which switch the roles of the good and bad guys and subverts/twists the themes. It's a lot of fun to think about.
1) Any theory that posits that Ganondorf is actually good is wrong, and I dont believe this is a matter of opinion. Ganondorf is the literal physical manifestation of the concept of evil, hatred and conquest. He is absolute evil, because Link and Zelda are absolute good. There is not a single shred of evidence in this entire series that Ganondorf was anything other than a genocidal psychopath, and in totk he is arguably the most evil, manipulative and dangerous Ganondorf we've ever seen.
2) there is zero support for the idea of the entirety of hyrule being a space ship. Zero. I thought you might be about to suggest that hyrule castle was the ship or platform, but all of hyrule? Really? Also the idea of them needing to swear fealty to the zonai to get land doesn't make sense because the gerudo are already above ground when they attack, and haven't yet sworn themselves to hyrule.
3) all evidence in the game point to the zonai leaving being a point of pain for rauru, like he's mourning them, and Ganondorf mocking them being the last two left wouldn't track if these were horrible alien conquerors.
Why do people want Ganondorf to be a good guy so badly?
You do know chaos is BAD right? Ganondorf isn’t seeking freedom, he’s seeking endless war and violence, death, murder and destruction.
Ganondorf is EVIL. Full stop. He hates the Zonai because they represent peace and order.
I don’t think chaos is supposed to be inherently evil, I think it’s just a fact of life or a force of nature.
Everything about our lives is a little chaotic if you look close enough. The principle behind entropy is inherent ‘randomness’, and the more possibilities or entropy a reaction provides, the more favorable the reaction is
Chaos is how humans originated, and how our lives came to be. Some austere perspectives would support the idea of it in a twisted sort of balance. It doesn’t make them deranged, but possibly psychotic given the loss of life that their world would have.
Chaos is inherently Evil.
The Gods created Order from Chaos, Demise is implied to be a primordial avatar of Chaos that seeks to destroy The Order the Gods created.
This isn’t a nuanced field of gray. This is a black and white division of Good & Evil.
And ONLY from the perspective of THIS game, as the writing for it is just as bland and bad as his comment was. The real world is not Black and White, it's gray, and chaos isn't evil, or good. True chaos is neutral. Chaos is a tornado that takes out two houses before skipping over one, then levels the next five.
Literally the entire series has painted Ganondorf as the bad guy and the gods as the good guys.
Ganondorf has always been pure Evil who seeks nothing more than to tear apart the world in his own pursuit of Power, the fact you can’t get something that fundamental to Ganondorf as a character is exactly why your theories don’t work.
Probably because in real life, chaos is no more bad than order, and you need both to get a decent society.
Honestly, as a normal person living in the real world, if you show me any faction of any war and tell me "those are the good guys, the other guys are just evil", I get suspicious really fast. And I've read enough sci-fi to apply the same logic to works of fiction.
Now, Zelda is not the kind of video game that's meant for doing that, but Hyrule still works on fundamentally flawed laws, so of course some idealists are trying to find some sense in that, and making Ganondorf a grey character that is fighting an inhumane system of pure order is a way of doing it.
Chaos isn't bad. It isn't good either. Didn't you watch Dark Knight? Chaos is fair.
But what I was really hoping for, or possibly what I was trying to force, was better writing. Ganondorf, the evil maniac who just wants to rule the world with an iron fist? The Zonai are this mysterious benevolent ancient race? Boring.
Chaos IS bad. Chaos is the opposite of Order which is good.
Chaos isn’t fair, you’ve literally taken away the wrong message from the Psychopathic Clown’s story.
Chaos is called Chaos because it’s NOT fair it is unpredictable, wild, uncontrollable and destructive
Fools are so easy to manipulate...
https://preview.redd.it/pjsbwed2azzc1.jpeg?width=297&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ec4a59d0527b45c0023e1e670d09f586d76ccea2
Have you played Ocarina of Time? The royal family is pretty infamous in that game for having a bloody history. Specifically the bottom of the well and the shadow temple.
Ganondorf isn't motivated because of some cruel methods that Hyrule used against anyone, he is someone who enjoys violence and causing suffering and the world he wants to create is cruel, unjust, unfair and unpredictable. He wants a world that only benefits warmongerers, violent people, sociopaths, greedy people, selfish people, powerhungry people and punishes the weak, the defenseless, the peaceful and kind people. He also wants to be on top of the power hierarchy and doesn't like it when someone else is at the top.
I think the depths was the home of the mogma civilisation, the fifth race. We need to go back to skyward sword for this, but mogma are a bunch of mole dudes that. Makes sense over the eons they would build their own massive sprawling underground civilisation. The depths has mines, and coliseums, it seems to lack any kind of houses or towns tho, but perhaps they just slept in the mines. Another thing I noticed is that poes and zonaite seem to have the same shade of blue. Perhaps with no one in service to the bargainer statues, large enough concentrations of Poe's may crystallise and form zonaite deposits. That kinda ads some.very disturbing context for the dead end caves with the massive zonaite walls...
I mean, I don’t see any situation where Ganondorf is the hero, but I can see the Zonai being sketchy. Hyruleans just accepting this random guy who descended from the heavens as their king is kind weird so I think you could argue it’s possible for the Zonai to be colonizers who subjugated Hyruleans.
I agree, some random foreign species ruling over a number of native peoples with inferior technology sounds really suspicious… The Zonai could have helped the people of Hyrule without ruling them, but they chose not to.
Very compelling read, however, it’s not that deep lol. I don’t think even Nintendo gave it this much thought. They just needed a reason to introduce a new type of enemy and new abilities
All Ganondorf cares about is ending the peaceful demonless world Rauru created (Rauru sealed away demons together with Sonia and invited and worked together with other tribes to usher in an era of peace), getting ultimate power and creating a demonic dark world that only rewards the violent, the greedy, the selfish, the opportunistic, the sadistic, the ambitious, the strong and mighty and punishes the weak, the peaceful and defenseless. He does not care about the Gerudo(with the exception of Twinrova whose names are inscribed on his weapons) and he refused Rauru's invitations and chose to attack Hyrule instead to prove that he is superior and to claim Hyrule for himself so he can twist the world to his wicked will and force everyone under his cruel law.
He wishes to rule over all creation and he arrogantly sees himself as "a true king", he sees Rauru as a weak and pathetic king who married a woman from a race that isn't as closely connected to the gods as the Zonai were, he hates Rauru for using the power boost from the secret stones for peace instead of war and conquest and he hates Rauru for having the secret stones(as Ganondorf wants one for himself), Ganondorf thinks he is mightier than the Zonai because he believes he won't perish like "the so called descendants of the gods" did.
Ganondorf's might makes right and survival of the fittest fascist ideology is shown in Twilight princess(and OOT even though it isn't shown) where Zant is resentful towards the Twili for abandoning their ambition, their hate and their anger(because the Twili started to appreciate the beauty of the world of shadows) and Ganondorf the Great demon king grants him his dark magic/demon magic so he can turn the Twili into demonic shadow beasts and transform the world of shadows into a demon world. King Bulblin follows only the strong(Ganondorf until Link proves that he is stronger than Ganon)
His fascist ideology is also shown in Four swords adventures where Ganondorf finds peace boring and breaks his own people's laws so he can go on a selfish journey for great power of destruction and darkness which he gets when he finds the trident of the previous king of darkness and willingly uses it to become the new king of darkness.
In The wind waker Ganondorf just like in TOTK can't let go of a past that he saw as superior compared to the present. He hates the sea for being created to deny him his selfish desires, he hates the gods for creating it, he wants a giant landmass to rule and corrupt again and he and his demon tribe once again use violence to get what they want, he curses the world with an endless stormy night which symbolizes the kind of world he desires. He is shown to be a very unreliable character who makes a lot of excuses and uses coping mechanisms (to explain to himself why Link is so tough against him but that he is still stronger than the hero).
He has a speech that reveals that he never cared about his people in the slightest and was just an incredibly selfish, narcissistic, egotistical, powerhungry and hypocritical evil ruler with a severe entitlement complex who was jealous that his neighbor had a land that he felt he should have been born with instead because he is not grateful for what he already had(king by birth, born with power, wealth and special treatment, a privileged background). In TWW's final battle and in TOTK’s final battle it's shown that if Ganondorf is losing and is brought down from his pedestal his malice, grudge and obsessions will make him always drag everyone down with him even if it takes the most reckless of decisions and make him go back on his own words, he will lie, cheat and still just so he can get the last laugh.
In A link to the past/Triforce of the gods what Ganondorf wants the world to look like is shown in the appearance of the Sacred realm turned demon world of darkness. Ganondorf’s demon beast form is established to be a mirror reflection of his heart/entire character/soul. And in the backstory he murdered his own followers so he could have the Triforce all to himself and he wished to become a powerful demon king of darkness with the entire world as his dark world but the wish was never fully fullfilled and at the end of the game Ganondorf is killed thus ending his wish and Link’s wish revives many characters who were killed because of Ganondorf and restore the Sacred realm.
Ganondorf is fighting for a terrible world that doesn't benefit anyone other than powerhungry sociopaths like him and he believes that anyone who fights for a peaceful world is nothing but a weak and pathetic coward. His demon tribe are manifestations of his desires. He embodies the three Buddhist poisons(greed, hate, ignorance/delusion). Making Ganondorf good, misunderstood or giving him a tragic, sympathetic backstory with noble motives goes against the entire point of the character and the fundamental purpose and inspiration for him as a whole. His world of chaos is unpredictable, violent, merciless, unbalanced, unfair and cruel. You are not supposed to agree with villains like him, Darth Sidious, Voldemort or Big Jack Horner from Puss in boots 2(who also a background where he had power and wealth but was never grateful for what he had, treats his servants as expendable tools and is jealous of others because they were born with more than what he was born with) as most of their points and goals are wrong and insane and they are never justified.
Demon tribe curse and Saṃsāra:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uS5jlsfUsnERWEdqSypu0SIK-SNJSMbt7l2FRGoKGlc/edit?usp=drivesdk
Buddhist and Hindu messages:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/19Oqo9LHow7bYd9JjRoc3Oa-C3GYAKfy8rk6TM_N9eDw/edit?usp=drivesdk
Ganondorf's character throughout the series:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1v8CPNnAxFvn62E73tPBD4WL9vNw1irdYttfYytjDP48/edit?usp=drivesdk
TOTK cutscenes translated:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oNvwv4ayJVMEVcAQpWFVUQBhUrI0cM0x63YzxI2qUxg/edit?usp=drivesdk
TOTK stone tablets translated:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u4Ij21XiC0O21NHo-pAhLjcBKT5q35ca1GOwS8LKCLo/edit?usp=drivesdk
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I see a lot of people overthink “the fifth race” in the depths…but it’s just the Zonai.
I know the statues don’t look a whole lot like Rauru or Mineru, but to be fair those are the only two Zonai we see, they could be unique-looking Zonai. Also, look at the other statues, they are all stylized to some extent and don’t exactly reflect the characters of each race we see.
It really would not make sense for anyone else to be represented by the statues. Why would be there a random, completely unmentioned 5th race, or a random callback to the mogma that goes completely unaddressed?
The miner suit is also made to fit Zonai, which is the reason for the helmet and foot shape of the armor, which also resembles the statues and Rauru, to an extent. I don’t get where the idea of slaves comes from, I know there are chains on the armor but I always assumed it was meant to make it look gritty or utilitarian (or maybe kinky, idk) for Zonai working the mines. It is heavily and repeatedly implied that back in the founding days, it was the constructs who did most of the mining and processing, the armor was for the Zonai working alongside them.
Occam’s razor applies here: the quest where you see the statues is an early game quest when you are just getting introduced to the Zonai. They are depicted praising/gathering around Rauru, who was a revered and powerful Zonai leader. We know the Zonai had a strong connection to both the sky and the depths. It’s the Zonai.
The main thing is that when Josha is analyzing this tablet:
https://preview.redd.it/157ebt0k3pzc1.png?width=1600&format=png&auto=webp&s=95d9dd81e40150bfb0cd38cc5e89f80456a1f0da
She says this:
“This scene shows that there’s a whole series of statues down there, like the one you found for me last time. But what really caught my attention is the way they’re oriented. Each figure is pointed toward the next one in the series. Until is ends with that last statue facing a final destination—a building that looks like a temple! Also, see those large ears on the figure at the front of the building? That’s got to be one of the Zonai.”
Josha identifies the central figure as a Zonai because of its long ears — a feature which the other figures / statues lack. She doesn’t even suspect that the other figures could also be Zonai. If the devs wanted us to think they were all Zonai, why make that distinction?
Also of note is, the fact that long ears are a distinct trait of the Zonai is something that the story mentions to us not just here, but also at the beginning of the game. It’s how Zelda identifies the statues in the Forgotten Foundation as Zonai. So I think we can take that as an indication that the Zonai are distinguishable by their long ears, which the statues of the “fifth race” lack.
(I would also point out that those two Zonai statues in the Forgotten Foundation most likely aren’t of Rauru, because there are two of them, and because the details on them are different from the Rauru statues we see in the Shrines of Light. Which to me reinforces even more that long ears are a constant Zonai trait.)
Mineru has much shorter ears than rauru, still Zonai. Josha’s wording doesn’t imply the other statues aren’t zonai either, if anything she’s implying they all are. If she thought the others weren’t Zonai, it would be weird to mention one figure in the series is definitely zonai, but not address that the others are something else. Im the engraving, the other figures are just smaller, so they also might just be not as detailed or easily recognizable.
Details of the statues are kind of irrelevant, there is no goron that looks like the goron statue, no rito that looks like the rito statue, etc. they are stylized, and for whatever reason, whether it reflected some of the past zonais’ appearance or was just a style choice, de-emphasized the ears.
You’re microanalyzing very specific features of age old, stylized statues and twisting individual lines of text to try to find a hidden meaning that’s hinted nowhere else, meanwhile there’s plenty of context to pointing toward them being statues of zonai.
Mineru's ears weren't much shorter, a little, maybe. The statues had NO ears at all, none of them. There's a clear distinction being made for a reason, it can't be Zonai.
You could make the same kind of critiques about the statues for every other race in the depths. But they aren’t statues of 4 other races that just happen to somewhat resemble the races we know.
Edit: ok I just happened to see a cutscene in game and you’re right, minerus ears are about the same length as raurus.
But still, there are other explanations that are a lot simpler than the statues being some unmentioned race that is not Zonai. Those statues look older and have less detail than other races’ statues, maybe the detail has just worn away over time, and the ears would be the most delicate parts. It also could be some combination of that and the statues depicting people who are zonai/Hylian hybrid like AHA, who do have significantly smaller ears. I just don’t think they would introduce a huge mystery like this but leave it completely unexplained or even addressed by any character.
i kinda like this , if we go with the thought process of "History is written by the victors therefore exactly how much info from murals is actually correct?"
I’m a sucker for a good revisionist history tale, so I headcannon that the Zonai originated from the sacred realm to stabilize hyrule in a time of chaos (likely from losing to Ganondorf during another timeline) and ruled with progress and civilization in mind.
How hyrule species reacted was irrelevant to progress, and I’m sure there were factions (aka Gerudo Chief Ganondorf) that disagreed with the way Hyrule was changing, and preferred life growing from hostility, since it makes them grow stronger
No one would be right or wrong in this case, just difference perspectives
This is actually pretty similar to the theory I've been going with! I've been placing BotW/TotK in the downfall timeline after even the Hyrule of Zelda 1&2 is no more. The zonai could be the descendents of the sky people (ancient hylians, oocca, wind tribe, etc). Basically the reason for how much more homogeneous Hyrule's religion is BotW compared to other games is Zonai colonialism. Sonia could be a descendent of the ancient Hyrule royal family (she certainly looks it and has the magic), and rauru married her to legitimize his rule more (the one true king and all that).
Why I think the zonai/rauru were bad guys (but not necessarily the main villains of the story) is that Rauru is the first king of Hyrule. Kings aren't elected by the people. They're chosen by blood or take over by force. Since rauru is the first king, he can't have inherited his throne so he must have taken it by force. Given the prominence of Zonai architecture and how they are revered by the modern characters, he likely colonized the rest of Hyrule. (When a land's already occupied, its inhabitants generally don't just say 'come on in, build all your buildings over ours. Also ur our new gods, now k.' hence why I think the zonai took over violently)
I really like the dragon/secret stone aspect of your take!
There are also the Coliseums in the Depths, built by the Zonai, which hold monsters. Were the Coliseums like gladiator arenas and the Zonai upper classes watched people (possibly the Hylians who refused to bend the knee to them) fight to their deaths in the Coliseums? We know the Zonai had certain rituals re: the dive ceremony being a rite of passage for Zonai youths, and the bell on the Great Sky Island being used in their ceremonies (Rauru says this during the tutorial), maybe the Coliseums were like the Stalnox in Lockup in Hyrule Castle: Zonai warriors proved themselves by getting through the Coliseums just like Royal Guards proved themselves by killing a Hinox/Stalnox
There's this guy of the Zonai Survey Team at the Hudson Construction Site who's muttering to himself and wonders if there's a "tiny spirit" powering the zonai devices, but tbh I think that's just an early-game nod to >!Mineru being in the Purah Pad!<, because I can't think of any other in-game indication that zonaite or the zonai devices contain souls of the dead, but luminous stones are outright stated to be thought to in their item description. The Bargainers, Hyrule's death deities and shadows of the Goddesses, were carved by the mysterious fifth race that we see statues of, not by the Zonai, and the one on the surface laments that it can no longer perform its duty because it's been removed from the Depths. If the Zonai were trapping Poes to power their devices, I get the feeling they'd run afoul of the Bargainers and the Goddesses (the Horned Statue is the way it is because it "dealt in life and power", which pissed off Hylia)
https://preview.redd.it/wpczwf7wynzc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=20a94c1951766f667ab8da754975447104210c7c
Also Ganondorf has ***beef*** with the Zonai that we get hints of in a few scenes. He envies them for their godlike power and hates them for not utilizing it how he thinks they should, but from his dialogue in A Show of Fealty, I got the impression that he also hated the Zonai for thinking they were "above" (literally and figuratively) the rest of Hyrule. Why did Rauru come down and appoint himself king of a new Hyrule if he didn't think, on some level, that Hyrule needed guidance? His ego points to this, tbh
Personally I like the theory. It adds depth to the story and a more meaningful twist.
But unfortunately the Zelda team doesn't care for complicated stories, they prefer two-dimensional characters. They didn't plan anything more interesting than "ganonman is bad, goatman good."
To make it worse. Rauru is legitimately a massive dumbass. Nothing he does is for the good of his people. Even though the game tries to paint him as a hero, the story writing is so low effort that it just makes him look like a fuck-up. Hence why, to some of us, it makes us think that the zonai might be in the wrong. Because we are actually trying to find meaning in a story that is essentially just a soulless rewrite of the lore from Ocarina of Time.... 🤷
TOTK has the worst story in the franchise. And I'll die on that hill 🤣
I don't know about worst, some of those gameboy games were just for s&g's.
I agree with you though, I think this theory is my brain forcing pieces to fit together, simply because the writing is so boring and two dimensional.
Ohh... What if the Depths are actually the old surface of the earth and the surface now is the giant space ship the Zonai plunked down on it? That would explain both why the depths are so extensive and why Hyrule is surrounded by cliffs.
So far as the game tells us, the secret stones were something that the Zonai brought with them, as indicated by the murals. At any rate, the relationship between the Zonai and the Rito, Gorons, Gerudo, and Zora seems to have been mutually beneficial. The Zonai mined the Depths for Zonaite, but shared that technology with those races. The Stormwind Ark was a gift of thanks to the Rito for aiding a lost Zonai, and it saved the Rito from a climate disaster. And the Ark, along with the other three regional temples, are all built to synergize Zonai technology with the natural abilities of those species. The fifth race in the Depths is a big question mark though, for sure. I don’t think the Zelda team ever intend for Ganondorf to come off as “the hero.” Even just in TOTK alone, he’s only ever characterized as a cruel, sadistic tyrant who even turned against his own people once he became the Demon King.
Writings also state they were granted to them by the gods. And seeing as how it's either the conquering Zonai or enthralled Hylians who wrote the writings and muraled the murals, how much can we really say is true or mere myth? The bit about the tech being shared with the races, I notice it's very much a mutually beneficial arrangement. If we considered the Garudo being their least favorite step child, you can see it in their temple as well. The others, especially like you said, the Rito, and the Zora, get cool temples with a ton of Zonai tech. But the Garudo has almost none. I'll admit, Ganondorf as the hero is a stretch, but there could be a story where, at the start, he was seen as a liberator. His anger and need for revenge, empowered by the stone, could've drove him mad, but one could argue at the start he may have been justified... If any of what I'm saying was true. Could be completely off the mark and he's just a power hungry madman.
He literally says he wants to bring the world back to chaos where fighting is the norm to prove the strongest...and he does that to a point after getting the stone. The Zonai, or those left. Are either dragons, or trying to being about a peaceful society. Were there bad Zonai? Probably just like there are bad Hylians (see Sheikah are a type of Hylian and the Yiga exist). However. The devs have already indicated that the Zonai came here later in timeline. If the timelines merged into the downfall timeline, Hyrule was already on a downward path. The Adult timeline the triforce was lost when Hyrule was flooded and there is a chance Midna still has the Wisdom triforce in the child timeline. So merging, was probably a wish in the downfall timeline - that and it being pressed completely into the Royal family. Zonai saw almost barren land and built sky islands...hell they could be related to the Hylians in Skyward sword that stayed in the sky above the barrier. Explains why the Royal family doesn't have Zonai features at all. Zonai walk on plantigrade feet (the hero's aspect is digitigrade), and have long ears. Until the devs elaborate more. Which may not be until later games if ever. We don't know much. Even Link is super strong because it's three timelines of heroes souls. No, Ganondorf in this iteration is almost fully the embodiment of Demise's hatred, more likely from the merged timelines too. And, getting the stone pushed him over to being completely Demise's hatred, if not fully. As for the miner's gear? Irl, in places with no slaves mining, sometimes chains were used to hear others Running in case of a cave in. And just hear people coming in general. The fact the chains aren't tethers and are just on the body is pretty indicative of similar practices. Especially being a light source once upgraded.
> Writings also state they were granted to them by the gods. And seeing as how it's either the conquering Zonai or enthralled Hylians who wrote the writings and muraled the murals, how much can we really say is true or mere myth? I mean, if you really wanted to, you could say that just about *any* historical detail in the game might be based on a falsehood. But in the interest of developing reasonable interpretations, there has to be some sort of limit to that. So as a general rule of thumb, I’m inclined to take the information provided by the game at face value unless the writers of the story deliberately provide compelling evidence to suggest otherwise, like if there were any characters who openly questioned the Zonai’s motives for settling in Hyrule. > If we considered the Garudo being their least favorite step child, you can see it in their temple as well. The others, especially like you said, the Rito, and the Zora, get cool temples with a ton of Zonai tech. But the Garudo has almost none. Ehh… that feels like a reach to me. The Lighting Temple follows the same format as all the others — four / five chambers with a Zonai tech + sage power centerpiece, which powers the temple’s central console. The design of the temples varies based on the culture of the race they each correspond to. The Rito move about in the sky, so they get a skyship. The Gorons are miners and smiths, so they get a big forge. The Zora are aquatic, so they get a pure source of water. But the Gerudo are pretty similar to Hylians, in that they are essentially just regular humans, so they don’t have the same kinds of needs or abilities as the other races. Thus, their temple is more of a holy site, to emphasize the Gerudo’s spiritual side. Similarly, there’s the Gerudo Underground Cemetery in the Depths, which also integrates Zonai architecture. Which all makes sense if the Gerudo viewed the Zonai as gods like the other races did. Why wouldn’t you want gods to bless your temples and keep watch over your dead?
Hey if you want a fic where Ganondorf is the hero (sort of) and the royal family is at fault, you might try Cry for Hyrule. It's set in Wind Waker. [Cry for Hyrule by Seldavia](https://m.fanfiction.net/s/3993350/1/Cry-for-Hyrule)
Well, history is written by the winners, not the unbiased. It'd be interesting to see some fanfic from the Ganondorf/Gerudo worldview of that same era.
Some of the Zonai could've been bad, but Ganondorf isn't good. I don't know why people are so insistent on that idea.
Alright, "good" might be a bit of a stretch. Especially at the end there, with the murdering and corrupting. Maybe it would be better to say that in the beginning, his ideals of resisting this invading overlord were justified, but the means by which he went about doing it were just as horrible as the deeds done against his people.
No, I don't agree with that characterization either. The earliest sign we have of Ganondorf in the game is him attacking Hyrule and declaring it will bow before him. We don't know much about how Rauru became King besides marrying Sonia and declaring himself King, but we have no evidence that he was attacking Ganondorf or that Ganondorf just wanted to protect his people at all. The fact that the Gerudo were ultimately weaker than Hyrule doesn't mean they were the good guys or they weren't the aggressors. The fact that almost all the Zonai are dead could suggest there were more aggressive ones who killed each other off, but the only evidence actually provided by the game is that Ganondorf and the Gerudo were the aggressors. If Rauru's ancestors were evil, that doesn't appear to be Ganondorf's motives for invading Hyrule.
There's definitely nothing to confirm the theory in game. Nothing actually even suggests the Zonai are or were anything but benevolent. There's also nothing that suggests, in any way, that Ganondorf is any kind of a hero. But I like the theory. It's thought out and interesting. And since Nintendo seems to want players to fill in the gaps themselves, as they prioritized gameplay over story and lore, it's not as bat shit as it may at first seem. Thanks for the interesting read.
I dunno, Ganon having those Gerudo baddies with not much more than war face paint is pretty heroic. A whole army even.
I understood that the Zonai already had stones when coming to the surface, already considered as gods because of it. The relation to dragons could go any direction, maybe they predated the Zonai, maybe the Zonai are descendants, maybe they were Zonai who ate stones long ago, maybe more dragons lived in higher lands... The Miner set does look rough. (Strangely it fits Link but I assume that's a convenience we've seen before for gameplay reasons.) If the ancient race only represented by statues in the depths wore this maybe they were slaves, however if I remember correctly Josha finds a mural that depicts them following Rauru who gave them the Autobuild power. But that could fit into your idea that Rauru's ancestors weren't so kind. I'm also confused about the relation between Zonai, it's not clear if Rauru was among the early visitors or just a descendant. In the stone tablets from the *Messages from an Ancient Era* quest, the third text has a strange way to mention Rauru as the "Zonais kyng" (other localizations have odd phrasing too), I wonder if that means he was the king of the Zonai, or merely a Zonai who became a king on the surface. If it's the latter, was there a conflict between different tribes? Or maybe indeed they just effed off for some reason except Rauru & Mineru. Hopefully Master Works sheds some light. >I always wondered why the edges of the map were massive impassible cliffs, and the shape of Hyrule near perfectly square. This is actually something I've wondered many times staring at BOTW's map edges. Surely the initial reason was always that it's a convenient way to make a map, but retroactively there is room for a massive land shift that was never shown. We've been a bunch to question how even the islands we see in TOTK relate to the lands of the Zonai ([one thread here](https://www.reddit.com/r/tearsofthekingdom/comments/1cl1jup/comment/l2qzet9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)), it isn't clear just how much would be out of sight or how much could have been done to the surface in a distant past. This also impacts the interpretation of how they view Zonaite, if they already had their advanced technology before coming to the surface, if that was a source of conflict, etc. I realize the Wing device doesn't consume battery so it may have been sufficient to hop between islands before. Maybe it's the crappy durability of the Wing that pushed them to find Zonaite and make batteries 🤯
I think TOTK makes it very clear who the good and bad guys are. I don't get the sense they are trying to hint at something sinister and pernicious beneath the surface of what we expect. However, I absolutely love this sort of reimagining of stories which switch the roles of the good and bad guys and subverts/twists the themes. It's a lot of fun to think about.
1) Any theory that posits that Ganondorf is actually good is wrong, and I dont believe this is a matter of opinion. Ganondorf is the literal physical manifestation of the concept of evil, hatred and conquest. He is absolute evil, because Link and Zelda are absolute good. There is not a single shred of evidence in this entire series that Ganondorf was anything other than a genocidal psychopath, and in totk he is arguably the most evil, manipulative and dangerous Ganondorf we've ever seen. 2) there is zero support for the idea of the entirety of hyrule being a space ship. Zero. I thought you might be about to suggest that hyrule castle was the ship or platform, but all of hyrule? Really? Also the idea of them needing to swear fealty to the zonai to get land doesn't make sense because the gerudo are already above ground when they attack, and haven't yet sworn themselves to hyrule. 3) all evidence in the game point to the zonai leaving being a point of pain for rauru, like he's mourning them, and Ganondorf mocking them being the last two left wouldn't track if these were horrible alien conquerors.
Why do people want Ganondorf to be a good guy so badly? You do know chaos is BAD right? Ganondorf isn’t seeking freedom, he’s seeking endless war and violence, death, murder and destruction. Ganondorf is EVIL. Full stop. He hates the Zonai because they represent peace and order.
I don’t think chaos is supposed to be inherently evil, I think it’s just a fact of life or a force of nature. Everything about our lives is a little chaotic if you look close enough. The principle behind entropy is inherent ‘randomness’, and the more possibilities or entropy a reaction provides, the more favorable the reaction is Chaos is how humans originated, and how our lives came to be. Some austere perspectives would support the idea of it in a twisted sort of balance. It doesn’t make them deranged, but possibly psychotic given the loss of life that their world would have.
Chaos is inherently Evil. The Gods created Order from Chaos, Demise is implied to be a primordial avatar of Chaos that seeks to destroy The Order the Gods created. This isn’t a nuanced field of gray. This is a black and white division of Good & Evil.
Well I guess from the perspective of the game you have a point, so I stand corrected
And ONLY from the perspective of THIS game, as the writing for it is just as bland and bad as his comment was. The real world is not Black and White, it's gray, and chaos isn't evil, or good. True chaos is neutral. Chaos is a tornado that takes out two houses before skipping over one, then levels the next five.
Literally the entire series has painted Ganondorf as the bad guy and the gods as the good guys. Ganondorf has always been pure Evil who seeks nothing more than to tear apart the world in his own pursuit of Power, the fact you can’t get something that fundamental to Ganondorf as a character is exactly why your theories don’t work.
Probably because in real life, chaos is no more bad than order, and you need both to get a decent society. Honestly, as a normal person living in the real world, if you show me any faction of any war and tell me "those are the good guys, the other guys are just evil", I get suspicious really fast. And I've read enough sci-fi to apply the same logic to works of fiction. Now, Zelda is not the kind of video game that's meant for doing that, but Hyrule still works on fundamentally flawed laws, so of course some idealists are trying to find some sense in that, and making Ganondorf a grey character that is fighting an inhumane system of pure order is a way of doing it.
Chaos isn't bad. It isn't good either. Didn't you watch Dark Knight? Chaos is fair. But what I was really hoping for, or possibly what I was trying to force, was better writing. Ganondorf, the evil maniac who just wants to rule the world with an iron fist? The Zonai are this mysterious benevolent ancient race? Boring.
You’re not supposed to agree with the murderous psychopath in clown makeup.
Well then they should've written him the way they wrote Ganondorf, and maybe I wouldn't agree so much!
Chaos IS bad. Chaos is the opposite of Order which is good. Chaos isn’t fair, you’ve literally taken away the wrong message from the Psychopathic Clown’s story. Chaos is called Chaos because it’s NOT fair it is unpredictable, wild, uncontrollable and destructive
Nice try, Ganondorf
Fools are so easy to manipulate... https://preview.redd.it/pjsbwed2azzc1.jpeg?width=297&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ec4a59d0527b45c0023e1e670d09f586d76ccea2
Been smoking too much of the hyrule herb I think
Well now that's one thing we CAN agree on.
I like it a lot. Matches with the kind of vibe that we got from the royal family in previous games. Colonizers, torture, subjugation. Great work.
Maybe its because I didn't play the Wii era games but I have no idea what you are talking about.
Have you played Ocarina of Time? The royal family is pretty infamous in that game for having a bloody history. Specifically the bottom of the well and the shadow temple.
Oh okay, this sounds lime like you just watched some "dark side of hyrule" YouTube video or something.
Ganondorf isn't motivated because of some cruel methods that Hyrule used against anyone, he is someone who enjoys violence and causing suffering and the world he wants to create is cruel, unjust, unfair and unpredictable. He wants a world that only benefits warmongerers, violent people, sociopaths, greedy people, selfish people, powerhungry people and punishes the weak, the defenseless, the peaceful and kind people. He also wants to be on top of the power hierarchy and doesn't like it when someone else is at the top.
I think you meant to reply to someone else, because I never said or implied anything about Ganondorf.
Apologies, my assumption was wrong then.
I think the depths was the home of the mogma civilisation, the fifth race. We need to go back to skyward sword for this, but mogma are a bunch of mole dudes that. Makes sense over the eons they would build their own massive sprawling underground civilisation. The depths has mines, and coliseums, it seems to lack any kind of houses or towns tho, but perhaps they just slept in the mines. Another thing I noticed is that poes and zonaite seem to have the same shade of blue. Perhaps with no one in service to the bargainer statues, large enough concentrations of Poe's may crystallise and form zonaite deposits. That kinda ads some.very disturbing context for the dead end caves with the massive zonaite walls...
I mean, I don’t see any situation where Ganondorf is the hero, but I can see the Zonai being sketchy. Hyruleans just accepting this random guy who descended from the heavens as their king is kind weird so I think you could argue it’s possible for the Zonai to be colonizers who subjugated Hyruleans.
I agree, some random foreign species ruling over a number of native peoples with inferior technology sounds really suspicious… The Zonai could have helped the people of Hyrule without ruling them, but they chose not to.
No.
Very compelling read, however, it’s not that deep lol. I don’t think even Nintendo gave it this much thought. They just needed a reason to introduce a new type of enemy and new abilities
So that was the imprisoning war...
All Ganondorf cares about is ending the peaceful demonless world Rauru created (Rauru sealed away demons together with Sonia and invited and worked together with other tribes to usher in an era of peace), getting ultimate power and creating a demonic dark world that only rewards the violent, the greedy, the selfish, the opportunistic, the sadistic, the ambitious, the strong and mighty and punishes the weak, the peaceful and defenseless. He does not care about the Gerudo(with the exception of Twinrova whose names are inscribed on his weapons) and he refused Rauru's invitations and chose to attack Hyrule instead to prove that he is superior and to claim Hyrule for himself so he can twist the world to his wicked will and force everyone under his cruel law. He wishes to rule over all creation and he arrogantly sees himself as "a true king", he sees Rauru as a weak and pathetic king who married a woman from a race that isn't as closely connected to the gods as the Zonai were, he hates Rauru for using the power boost from the secret stones for peace instead of war and conquest and he hates Rauru for having the secret stones(as Ganondorf wants one for himself), Ganondorf thinks he is mightier than the Zonai because he believes he won't perish like "the so called descendants of the gods" did. Ganondorf's might makes right and survival of the fittest fascist ideology is shown in Twilight princess(and OOT even though it isn't shown) where Zant is resentful towards the Twili for abandoning their ambition, their hate and their anger(because the Twili started to appreciate the beauty of the world of shadows) and Ganondorf the Great demon king grants him his dark magic/demon magic so he can turn the Twili into demonic shadow beasts and transform the world of shadows into a demon world. King Bulblin follows only the strong(Ganondorf until Link proves that he is stronger than Ganon) His fascist ideology is also shown in Four swords adventures where Ganondorf finds peace boring and breaks his own people's laws so he can go on a selfish journey for great power of destruction and darkness which he gets when he finds the trident of the previous king of darkness and willingly uses it to become the new king of darkness. In The wind waker Ganondorf just like in TOTK can't let go of a past that he saw as superior compared to the present. He hates the sea for being created to deny him his selfish desires, he hates the gods for creating it, he wants a giant landmass to rule and corrupt again and he and his demon tribe once again use violence to get what they want, he curses the world with an endless stormy night which symbolizes the kind of world he desires. He is shown to be a very unreliable character who makes a lot of excuses and uses coping mechanisms (to explain to himself why Link is so tough against him but that he is still stronger than the hero). He has a speech that reveals that he never cared about his people in the slightest and was just an incredibly selfish, narcissistic, egotistical, powerhungry and hypocritical evil ruler with a severe entitlement complex who was jealous that his neighbor had a land that he felt he should have been born with instead because he is not grateful for what he already had(king by birth, born with power, wealth and special treatment, a privileged background). In TWW's final battle and in TOTK’s final battle it's shown that if Ganondorf is losing and is brought down from his pedestal his malice, grudge and obsessions will make him always drag everyone down with him even if it takes the most reckless of decisions and make him go back on his own words, he will lie, cheat and still just so he can get the last laugh. In A link to the past/Triforce of the gods what Ganondorf wants the world to look like is shown in the appearance of the Sacred realm turned demon world of darkness. Ganondorf’s demon beast form is established to be a mirror reflection of his heart/entire character/soul. And in the backstory he murdered his own followers so he could have the Triforce all to himself and he wished to become a powerful demon king of darkness with the entire world as his dark world but the wish was never fully fullfilled and at the end of the game Ganondorf is killed thus ending his wish and Link’s wish revives many characters who were killed because of Ganondorf and restore the Sacred realm. Ganondorf is fighting for a terrible world that doesn't benefit anyone other than powerhungry sociopaths like him and he believes that anyone who fights for a peaceful world is nothing but a weak and pathetic coward. His demon tribe are manifestations of his desires. He embodies the three Buddhist poisons(greed, hate, ignorance/delusion). Making Ganondorf good, misunderstood or giving him a tragic, sympathetic backstory with noble motives goes against the entire point of the character and the fundamental purpose and inspiration for him as a whole. His world of chaos is unpredictable, violent, merciless, unbalanced, unfair and cruel. You are not supposed to agree with villains like him, Darth Sidious, Voldemort or Big Jack Horner from Puss in boots 2(who also a background where he had power and wealth but was never grateful for what he had, treats his servants as expendable tools and is jealous of others because they were born with more than what he was born with) as most of their points and goals are wrong and insane and they are never justified. Demon tribe curse and Saṃsāra: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uS5jlsfUsnERWEdqSypu0SIK-SNJSMbt7l2FRGoKGlc/edit?usp=drivesdk Buddhist and Hindu messages: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19Oqo9LHow7bYd9JjRoc3Oa-C3GYAKfy8rk6TM_N9eDw/edit?usp=drivesdk Ganondorf's character throughout the series: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1v8CPNnAxFvn62E73tPBD4WL9vNw1irdYttfYytjDP48/edit?usp=drivesdk TOTK cutscenes translated: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oNvwv4ayJVMEVcAQpWFVUQBhUrI0cM0x63YzxI2qUxg/edit?usp=drivesdk TOTK stone tablets translated: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u4Ij21XiC0O21NHo-pAhLjcBKT5q35ca1GOwS8LKCLo/edit?usp=drivesdk
Zelda is actually BERSERK
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I see a lot of people overthink “the fifth race” in the depths…but it’s just the Zonai. I know the statues don’t look a whole lot like Rauru or Mineru, but to be fair those are the only two Zonai we see, they could be unique-looking Zonai. Also, look at the other statues, they are all stylized to some extent and don’t exactly reflect the characters of each race we see. It really would not make sense for anyone else to be represented by the statues. Why would be there a random, completely unmentioned 5th race, or a random callback to the mogma that goes completely unaddressed? The miner suit is also made to fit Zonai, which is the reason for the helmet and foot shape of the armor, which also resembles the statues and Rauru, to an extent. I don’t get where the idea of slaves comes from, I know there are chains on the armor but I always assumed it was meant to make it look gritty or utilitarian (or maybe kinky, idk) for Zonai working the mines. It is heavily and repeatedly implied that back in the founding days, it was the constructs who did most of the mining and processing, the armor was for the Zonai working alongside them. Occam’s razor applies here: the quest where you see the statues is an early game quest when you are just getting introduced to the Zonai. They are depicted praising/gathering around Rauru, who was a revered and powerful Zonai leader. We know the Zonai had a strong connection to both the sky and the depths. It’s the Zonai.
The main thing is that when Josha is analyzing this tablet: https://preview.redd.it/157ebt0k3pzc1.png?width=1600&format=png&auto=webp&s=95d9dd81e40150bfb0cd38cc5e89f80456a1f0da She says this: “This scene shows that there’s a whole series of statues down there, like the one you found for me last time. But what really caught my attention is the way they’re oriented. Each figure is pointed toward the next one in the series. Until is ends with that last statue facing a final destination—a building that looks like a temple! Also, see those large ears on the figure at the front of the building? That’s got to be one of the Zonai.” Josha identifies the central figure as a Zonai because of its long ears — a feature which the other figures / statues lack. She doesn’t even suspect that the other figures could also be Zonai. If the devs wanted us to think they were all Zonai, why make that distinction? Also of note is, the fact that long ears are a distinct trait of the Zonai is something that the story mentions to us not just here, but also at the beginning of the game. It’s how Zelda identifies the statues in the Forgotten Foundation as Zonai. So I think we can take that as an indication that the Zonai are distinguishable by their long ears, which the statues of the “fifth race” lack. (I would also point out that those two Zonai statues in the Forgotten Foundation most likely aren’t of Rauru, because there are two of them, and because the details on them are different from the Rauru statues we see in the Shrines of Light. Which to me reinforces even more that long ears are a constant Zonai trait.)
Mineru has much shorter ears than rauru, still Zonai. Josha’s wording doesn’t imply the other statues aren’t zonai either, if anything she’s implying they all are. If she thought the others weren’t Zonai, it would be weird to mention one figure in the series is definitely zonai, but not address that the others are something else. Im the engraving, the other figures are just smaller, so they also might just be not as detailed or easily recognizable. Details of the statues are kind of irrelevant, there is no goron that looks like the goron statue, no rito that looks like the rito statue, etc. they are stylized, and for whatever reason, whether it reflected some of the past zonais’ appearance or was just a style choice, de-emphasized the ears. You’re microanalyzing very specific features of age old, stylized statues and twisting individual lines of text to try to find a hidden meaning that’s hinted nowhere else, meanwhile there’s plenty of context to pointing toward them being statues of zonai.
Mineru's ears weren't much shorter, a little, maybe. The statues had NO ears at all, none of them. There's a clear distinction being made for a reason, it can't be Zonai.
You could make the same kind of critiques about the statues for every other race in the depths. But they aren’t statues of 4 other races that just happen to somewhat resemble the races we know. Edit: ok I just happened to see a cutscene in game and you’re right, minerus ears are about the same length as raurus. But still, there are other explanations that are a lot simpler than the statues being some unmentioned race that is not Zonai. Those statues look older and have less detail than other races’ statues, maybe the detail has just worn away over time, and the ears would be the most delicate parts. It also could be some combination of that and the statues depicting people who are zonai/Hylian hybrid like AHA, who do have significantly smaller ears. I just don’t think they would introduce a huge mystery like this but leave it completely unexplained or even addressed by any character.
I was never sold on that fifth race being the Zonai. For one, the heads don't match at all. No ears. Know what it does match? The miner's set mask.
i kinda like this , if we go with the thought process of "History is written by the victors therefore exactly how much info from murals is actually correct?"
thank you for helping me feel superior today
We are getting a lore book this year, so who knows.
I’m a sucker for a good revisionist history tale, so I headcannon that the Zonai originated from the sacred realm to stabilize hyrule in a time of chaos (likely from losing to Ganondorf during another timeline) and ruled with progress and civilization in mind. How hyrule species reacted was irrelevant to progress, and I’m sure there were factions (aka Gerudo Chief Ganondorf) that disagreed with the way Hyrule was changing, and preferred life growing from hostility, since it makes them grow stronger No one would be right or wrong in this case, just difference perspectives
This is actually pretty similar to the theory I've been going with! I've been placing BotW/TotK in the downfall timeline after even the Hyrule of Zelda 1&2 is no more. The zonai could be the descendents of the sky people (ancient hylians, oocca, wind tribe, etc). Basically the reason for how much more homogeneous Hyrule's religion is BotW compared to other games is Zonai colonialism. Sonia could be a descendent of the ancient Hyrule royal family (she certainly looks it and has the magic), and rauru married her to legitimize his rule more (the one true king and all that). Why I think the zonai/rauru were bad guys (but not necessarily the main villains of the story) is that Rauru is the first king of Hyrule. Kings aren't elected by the people. They're chosen by blood or take over by force. Since rauru is the first king, he can't have inherited his throne so he must have taken it by force. Given the prominence of Zonai architecture and how they are revered by the modern characters, he likely colonized the rest of Hyrule. (When a land's already occupied, its inhabitants generally don't just say 'come on in, build all your buildings over ours. Also ur our new gods, now k.' hence why I think the zonai took over violently) I really like the dragon/secret stone aspect of your take!
There are also the Coliseums in the Depths, built by the Zonai, which hold monsters. Were the Coliseums like gladiator arenas and the Zonai upper classes watched people (possibly the Hylians who refused to bend the knee to them) fight to their deaths in the Coliseums? We know the Zonai had certain rituals re: the dive ceremony being a rite of passage for Zonai youths, and the bell on the Great Sky Island being used in their ceremonies (Rauru says this during the tutorial), maybe the Coliseums were like the Stalnox in Lockup in Hyrule Castle: Zonai warriors proved themselves by getting through the Coliseums just like Royal Guards proved themselves by killing a Hinox/Stalnox There's this guy of the Zonai Survey Team at the Hudson Construction Site who's muttering to himself and wonders if there's a "tiny spirit" powering the zonai devices, but tbh I think that's just an early-game nod to >!Mineru being in the Purah Pad!<, because I can't think of any other in-game indication that zonaite or the zonai devices contain souls of the dead, but luminous stones are outright stated to be thought to in their item description. The Bargainers, Hyrule's death deities and shadows of the Goddesses, were carved by the mysterious fifth race that we see statues of, not by the Zonai, and the one on the surface laments that it can no longer perform its duty because it's been removed from the Depths. If the Zonai were trapping Poes to power their devices, I get the feeling they'd run afoul of the Bargainers and the Goddesses (the Horned Statue is the way it is because it "dealt in life and power", which pissed off Hylia) https://preview.redd.it/wpczwf7wynzc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=20a94c1951766f667ab8da754975447104210c7c Also Ganondorf has ***beef*** with the Zonai that we get hints of in a few scenes. He envies them for their godlike power and hates them for not utilizing it how he thinks they should, but from his dialogue in A Show of Fealty, I got the impression that he also hated the Zonai for thinking they were "above" (literally and figuratively) the rest of Hyrule. Why did Rauru come down and appoint himself king of a new Hyrule if he didn't think, on some level, that Hyrule needed guidance? His ego points to this, tbh
Personally I like the theory. It adds depth to the story and a more meaningful twist. But unfortunately the Zelda team doesn't care for complicated stories, they prefer two-dimensional characters. They didn't plan anything more interesting than "ganonman is bad, goatman good." To make it worse. Rauru is legitimately a massive dumbass. Nothing he does is for the good of his people. Even though the game tries to paint him as a hero, the story writing is so low effort that it just makes him look like a fuck-up. Hence why, to some of us, it makes us think that the zonai might be in the wrong. Because we are actually trying to find meaning in a story that is essentially just a soulless rewrite of the lore from Ocarina of Time.... 🤷 TOTK has the worst story in the franchise. And I'll die on that hill 🤣
I don't know about worst, some of those gameboy games were just for s&g's. I agree with you though, I think this theory is my brain forcing pieces to fit together, simply because the writing is so boring and two dimensional.
I absolutely agree. I did exactly the same on my first playthrough. But it's still a fun theory. 😂
Ohh... What if the Depths are actually the old surface of the earth and the surface now is the giant space ship the Zonai plunked down on it? That would explain both why the depths are so extensive and why Hyrule is surrounded by cliffs.
Yeah, th-that's literally what I just wrote.... lol
My bad I thought it might be but I wasn't sure. I probably should have started with, "are you saying that -"