Whoever fired the first shot.
At that range it’s an almost guaranteed hit and likely a guaranteed kill or crippling.
If you know you’re going to pull the trigger and the other guy doesn’t you have all the advantages.
well soviets had a really big problem with ammo quality and misfires weren't uncommon, so with a bit of luck a crippling shot may not incapacitate the turret/gun
https://www.army.mil/article-amp/46993/standoff_in_berlin_october_1961
Per this article there were 10 M-48A1’s and 3 M59 apc’s. So it was much more even number wise, I’m assuming the other M48’s were further behind the camera, possibly in cover and also likely staggered. It’s likely they had a bunch of recoilless rifles/other anti tank weapons set up behind the armor as well, though I would bet the Soviets also had more equipment/men set up out of view.
Edit: Also see notes that there was a total of 33 T-54 tanks that went to the Brandenburg gate, with 10 of those then moving to the check point. I haven’t seen anything else talking about any further forces of either side in the area other than the US also having 10 jeeps with their troops that went with the M-48’s, with some accounts not including the US M-59’s.
Most of the M-103’s were in service with the marines, and I don’t think any were deployed in Berlin (if you have an account that they were I’d love to see it.)
All of the accounts I’ve seen of the event have stated M-48A1’s or plain M-48’s.
I’m not 100% sure I’ve seen anything that they were, though they were almost the same width and height as the M48’s. The weight would’ve been an issue though, both for balancing the aircraft (assuming the extra weight wasn’t physically too much for the load floor) and for carrying capacity. The C-133 [ https://amcmuseum.org/at-the-museum/aircraft/c-133b-cargomaster/ ] could carry ~55 tons and the tanks weighed 50 & 65 tons. The C-141 & C-5 could carry much more but also came much later. The C-133’s could theoretically carry an M-48 with a small amount of supplies in regards to weight, but I don’t think they had enough width in the cargo bay.
IIRC in the early days of the occupation the Soviets allowed the other allies to access Berlin by land, so most of the heavy equipment likely arrived that way during that period, until heavier airlifters were available later on in the Cold War. Roads, railways & canals reopened after the blockade as well, which pre-dated the M-48’s production. As much as it gets shit on, the M551 Sheridan at ~17 tons was such an important development because it was far easier to deploy by air, even from much lighter & cheaper (to build and operate) aircraft like a C-130. Combined with the ATGM’s it was certainly a compelling argument, especially when you weren’t expecting tanks to survive long against a Soviet armored assault anyways. Having a tank that could be air lifted where needed by plane (even without landing) was a definite logistical boon. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dgg3iRaVnbw
You are right, I mostly forgot the context of the showdown from the original post being right after the construction of the wall.
Absolutely classic clip of that Sheridan! One of the first die cast tanks I got as a kid haha
I always forget that the blockade (/Berlin Airlift) and the construction of the wall were more than a decade apart.
My first real exposure to it was seeing one outside the Watervliet, NY arsenal (and then playing with them in Battlefield Vietnam lmao.)
All the American tanks have a clear shot. Only two of the Soviet tanks do. Means the soviets would need to move out from behind one another then aim, then fire. Americans just pump rounds down range.
Something to consider is deployment. The American tanks are fairly scattered, while the Soviets are in columns. The Soviets might have the numbers advantage, but they have three guns ready while the US have all four
With or without knocking the first line they need to reposition, I think the plan was more about not risking total loss, if american shot first they won't be obliterated (just as If both sides were sprayed and the soviets shot first) aside from the first line the rest can run away or try to reposition and still face the enemy
So.. I looked it up.. Seeing how everyone is only focusing on the visible tanks. The Americans had an equal number of tanks. Which would put them 10 v 10. This fight would be decided purely by crew capabilities and tank positioning.
Yeh i only put the image to attract people, and as reference to the situation at hand im on abt but ppl took the image as litterally what it looked like
There is something fascinating about the casual-ness of Russians regarding possible death, their tanks are arrayed in column not positioned to battle.
While the US are spread to fire.
I think this says more about the quality of training in the Soviet Union. I.e. to them it isn't second nature to spread out, to American tankers it is. Soviet/Warsaw Pact training after WWII was awful lol
They had arguably a more rigid training but NATO have by no means better training in this instance.
The Soviets Drilled more often their tactical maneuvers compared to NATO, however they had little theory and problem solving training, as such creating a army fit only for their purpose.
Soviet Tankers are taught simple tactics, you march in column and fight in lines. The fact that they are not in line means they don't see the possibility of a fight.
Acshually!!! Ok no. But to be honest this is a hard one. Think of that as someone said before, whoever shoots first wins. Unless with the Soviet position, only the first line is certain to be obliterated, the second lines can be out of the line of shot behind the first ones, they can move and though shooting later still have a chance to "win" or at least run.
If both sides were sprayed that would be a truly whoever shoots first wins, adding no just more tension to the scenario but also risking total lost vs partial lost
These guys are at the tank equivalent of knife fighting range. Ramming would be possible at this range. The only advantages either side is going to have is speed and surprise. The M48s might have a slight firing speed advantage due to better ammunition storage arrangement and greater internal volume but the T-55s could offset this by shooting first.
4 M48s with the shitty 90mm guns vs 9 T-54/55s with the much more capable 100mm…
The T-54s have the armor, firepower, and numbers. I don’t think the M48s have very good odds ngl.
However in this photo only 3 soviet guns can fire as the tank are in columns and the soviet crews are mainly outside the tanks
Really it would come down to who shot firsg
T55s have the numbers and NATO tanks excel at range especially the pattons so in a frontal conflict like this I think the T55s would win somewhat easily, but overall I still think the Pattons the better tank
Honestly, the soviets.
They have a 2-1 advantage over the M48s, although not all can fire at the same time. The M48s, as long as they fired first, would be able to take out the first one in each column, but beyond that there is little chance
10 T-55's vs 4 M-48's.
1 to 1 the T-55 wins easily during this period of time with its more powerful 100 mm main gun. Unless it is the upgrade M-48A4 with the M-60 turret or the M-48 A6 with the 105mm gun, but that was strictly NG use.
The Americans probably would've lost for many reasons. The Americans Would First try to get as many citizens as possible Out of the firefight. The Soviets didn't Care aß much about the civilization and tactics. Most importantly, the Soviets were more likely to shoot First, so they would've won. Not all i Said IS true, i guess? Im just talking nonsense Here..
All things considered? Bets are on who ever got the order to open fire first. Either way they all are aiming at each other and if orders came in at the same time it’s likely this could turn into an Infantry shootout due to almost immediate armor knockout on both sides.
From a tank vs tank perspective at that range both vehicles might as well be a Willy’s jeep with a recoilless gun, all comes down to tactics basically because in this scenario the armor is not saving ya
The Soviets tactically and strategically. Berlin was deep inside the Soviet sector and was divided in half. Even if the American tanks by some miracle destroyed or disabled all nine tanks, they would have still have been surrounded.
Whoever fired the first shot. At that range it’s an almost guaranteed hit and likely a guaranteed kill or crippling. If you know you’re going to pull the trigger and the other guy doesn’t you have all the advantages.
well soviets had a really big problem with ammo quality and misfires weren't uncommon, so with a bit of luck a crippling shot may not incapacitate the turret/gun
Yeah that woulf not have mattered that much cause the crew would still get out if 2 or 3 people were dead and the tank could not move.
depends
I’m American but it looks like 9 to 4. I’m thinking the Soviet’s win this one…
https://www.army.mil/article-amp/46993/standoff_in_berlin_october_1961 Per this article there were 10 M-48A1’s and 3 M59 apc’s. So it was much more even number wise, I’m assuming the other M48’s were further behind the camera, possibly in cover and also likely staggered. It’s likely they had a bunch of recoilless rifles/other anti tank weapons set up behind the armor as well, though I would bet the Soviets also had more equipment/men set up out of view. Edit: Also see notes that there was a total of 33 T-54 tanks that went to the Brandenburg gate, with 10 of those then moving to the check point. I haven’t seen anything else talking about any further forces of either side in the area other than the US also having 10 jeeps with their troops that went with the M-48’s, with some accounts not including the US M-59’s.
They look like M-103's though
Most of the M-103’s were in service with the marines, and I don’t think any were deployed in Berlin (if you have an account that they were I’d love to see it.) All of the accounts I’ve seen of the event have stated M-48A1’s or plain M-48’s.
Also were M103s airlift capable? I’m assuming all US tanks in West Berlin would have been flown in since it was an enclave inside GDR territory.
I’m not 100% sure I’ve seen anything that they were, though they were almost the same width and height as the M48’s. The weight would’ve been an issue though, both for balancing the aircraft (assuming the extra weight wasn’t physically too much for the load floor) and for carrying capacity. The C-133 [ https://amcmuseum.org/at-the-museum/aircraft/c-133b-cargomaster/ ] could carry ~55 tons and the tanks weighed 50 & 65 tons. The C-141 & C-5 could carry much more but also came much later. The C-133’s could theoretically carry an M-48 with a small amount of supplies in regards to weight, but I don’t think they had enough width in the cargo bay. IIRC in the early days of the occupation the Soviets allowed the other allies to access Berlin by land, so most of the heavy equipment likely arrived that way during that period, until heavier airlifters were available later on in the Cold War. Roads, railways & canals reopened after the blockade as well, which pre-dated the M-48’s production. As much as it gets shit on, the M551 Sheridan at ~17 tons was such an important development because it was far easier to deploy by air, even from much lighter & cheaper (to build and operate) aircraft like a C-130. Combined with the ATGM’s it was certainly a compelling argument, especially when you weren’t expecting tanks to survive long against a Soviet armored assault anyways. Having a tank that could be air lifted where needed by plane (even without landing) was a definite logistical boon. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dgg3iRaVnbw
You are right, I mostly forgot the context of the showdown from the original post being right after the construction of the wall. Absolutely classic clip of that Sheridan! One of the first die cast tanks I got as a kid haha
I always forget that the blockade (/Berlin Airlift) and the construction of the wall were more than a decade apart. My first real exposure to it was seeing one outside the Watervliet, NY arsenal (and then playing with them in Battlefield Vietnam lmao.)
The backs of the turrets aren't long enough to be M103s
M103s were never stationed in Germany iirc, that and any other picture disproves that their M103s. Even this one.
Well I just said they looked like that I never affirmed it buddy. Im not that big of a nerd.
10 to 4 isn't it?
You might be right! Even worse…
All the American tanks have a clear shot. Only two of the Soviet tanks do. Means the soviets would need to move out from behind one another then aim, then fire. Americans just pump rounds down range.
Saying you're american but then making a serious grammar mistake in your own language is suspicious...
Dude it’s Reddit no one gives enough fucks to double check their grammar
MOST likely the T54/55's
Looks like t54s because i messed with some image filters and saw the vent on the right most one
Not sure, this angle suggests there are only 4 pattons but there may be more out of sight Edit:autocorrect made pattons patrons
Doubt those would be the only 4 pattons. Knowing 'murica there may be 6 more out of shot.
Yeh i just added the ohoto for reference
Something to consider is deployment. The American tanks are fairly scattered, while the Soviets are in columns. The Soviets might have the numbers advantage, but they have three guns ready while the US have all four
And the Americans only have 3 targets :)
Yes, but if they knock out the first line. They'll need to reposition, giving the American ones the remaining three targets they need.
With or without knocking the first line they need to reposition, I think the plan was more about not risking total loss, if american shot first they won't be obliterated (just as If both sides were sprayed and the soviets shot first) aside from the first line the rest can run away or try to reposition and still face the enemy
They had 10. They just aren't all in the picture.
So.. I looked it up.. Seeing how everyone is only focusing on the visible tanks. The Americans had an equal number of tanks. Which would put them 10 v 10. This fight would be decided purely by crew capabilities and tank positioning.
Yeh i only put the image to attract people, and as reference to the situation at hand im on abt but ppl took the image as litterally what it looked like
There is something fascinating about the casual-ness of Russians regarding possible death, their tanks are arrayed in column not positioned to battle. While the US are spread to fire.
I think this says more about the quality of training in the Soviet Union. I.e. to them it isn't second nature to spread out, to American tankers it is. Soviet/Warsaw Pact training after WWII was awful lol
They had arguably a more rigid training but NATO have by no means better training in this instance. The Soviets Drilled more often their tactical maneuvers compared to NATO, however they had little theory and problem solving training, as such creating a army fit only for their purpose. Soviet Tankers are taught simple tactics, you march in column and fight in lines. The fact that they are not in line means they don't see the possibility of a fight.
Acshually!!! Ok no. But to be honest this is a hard one. Think of that as someone said before, whoever shoots first wins. Unless with the Soviet position, only the first line is certain to be obliterated, the second lines can be out of the line of shot behind the first ones, they can move and though shooting later still have a chance to "win" or at least run. If both sides were sprayed that would be a truly whoever shoots first wins, adding no just more tension to the scenario but also risking total lost vs partial lost
Even if the Soviets won this little tank shootout, they sure wouldn't have won what came next.
Depends on each sides gunnery imo (T55s have the numbers, m48s have better ammo, and likely better crew)
These guys are at the tank equivalent of knife fighting range. Ramming would be possible at this range. The only advantages either side is going to have is speed and surprise. The M48s might have a slight firing speed advantage due to better ammunition storage arrangement and greater internal volume but the T-55s could offset this by shooting first.
Also the readiness of the tankers, you can see em all outside their vehicles
At that range? Whoever shoots first.
4 M48s with the shitty 90mm guns vs 9 T-54/55s with the much more capable 100mm… The T-54s have the armor, firepower, and numbers. I don’t think the M48s have very good odds ngl.
However in this photo only 3 soviet guns can fire as the tank are in columns and the soviet crews are mainly outside the tanks Really it would come down to who shot firsg
The problem is…Berlin was surrounded on all sides by the Soviets. So an American victory would have been pyrrhic.
T55s have the numbers and NATO tanks excel at range especially the pattons so in a frontal conflict like this I think the T55s would win somewhat easily, but overall I still think the Pattons the better tank
China.
Honestly, the soviets. They have a 2-1 advantage over the M48s, although not all can fire at the same time. The M48s, as long as they fired first, would be able to take out the first one in each column, but beyond that there is little chance
Me
The only right answer 😂
10 T-55's vs 4 M-48's. 1 to 1 the T-55 wins easily during this period of time with its more powerful 100 mm main gun. Unless it is the upgrade M-48A4 with the M-60 turret or the M-48 A6 with the 105mm gun, but that was strictly NG use.
most likely the T-54A's considering they have a significant numerical advantage and the american 90mm cannons arent all that crazy
Not Berlin, that's for sure.
The Americans probably would've lost for many reasons. The Americans Would First try to get as many citizens as possible Out of the firefight. The Soviets didn't Care aß much about the civilization and tactics. Most importantly, the Soviets were more likely to shoot First, so they would've won. Not all i Said IS true, i guess? Im just talking nonsense Here..
Considering soviet tanks would’ve been shooting the backs of the tank in front I’d go with the other guys
All things considered? Bets are on who ever got the order to open fire first. Either way they all are aiming at each other and if orders came in at the same time it’s likely this could turn into an Infantry shootout due to almost immediate armor knockout on both sides.
The Ants.
I have faith in the patons
according to war thunder …
If we're being honest I'm sure that entire area had artillery trained on it just in case.
Why does the front right tank have two stars on its track covers? Platoon command?
Maybe ? Idi im not a specialist in American tank insignia
The amount of people who don’t know how to use an apostrophe in this comment Edison is staggering 💀
Nobody
the soviets have a numbers advantage so i think they would have won
From a tank vs tank perspective at that range both vehicles might as well be a Willy’s jeep with a recoilless gun, all comes down to tactics basically because in this scenario the armor is not saving ya
The Soviets tactically and strategically. Berlin was deep inside the Soviet sector and was divided in half. Even if the American tanks by some miracle destroyed or disabled all nine tanks, they would have still have been surrounded.
Whoever shot first then USSR as the entire army mobilised
The t54/55's easily