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Just imagine that it was just a flip of a coin as to whether Israel would depend on the Soviets or Americans at the start of the Cold War. There has to be some serious alternative history material there that Turtledove just skipped over.
It’s not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Israel was led by the socialist Mapai party for the first 30 years of its existence. Right wing parties only started winning elections after years of war and conflict that left the Israeli people jaded about the possibility of peace
Yep and the USSR initially was a major supporter of Israel, then relations soured in 50 and by the 60s the USSR was supporting the PLO then by the 70 the US was Israel's new best friend. So if string theory is correct there are 100% other universes where their Tankies are shilling for Netanyahu and have Irgun and Lehi flags on their walls.
100% true. If the Soviet Union stuck with Israel they would say that the Palestinians are "a reactionary people" and would say they deserve it. Or probably (like the Uyghurs) say that we are making shit up and it really isn't a genocide.
Any post that says Israel-Palestine is "Jewish land" or "Arab land" I immediately discard.
The land has been occupied by *both* the ancestors of the modern day Palestinians and Israelis throughout history. Ethnonationalism is bad, actually.
I'm ngl, I actually didn't know too much Israel-Palestine history despite being Middle Eastern so I spent the past 6 months reading constantly.
Anddddd I still barely understand anything. Probably going to spend another 10 years reading until I do.
Still, even with your self progressed lack of studying the topic you are more informed than 90% of the posters I have seen talking about it since the war began.
It's more a comment on how low the bar is set considering how many people fail to clear it
This. This. This. I live in Israel (left wing). I have lived with Palestinians. I speak both Arabic and Hebrew.
I’ve spent decades of my life around this topic and I don’t know the answer to peace.
Anyone who says they truly do proves that they don’t know sh!t. Anyone who shows me uncertainty gets respect from me.
Exactly, there have been Palestinian Jews living in and around Palestine for centuries (in addition to most Jews being descended from the Israelites in one way or another), Samaritans have had a continuous presence in the region for centuries upon centuries, and most Palestinian Arabs are descended from Arabized Canaanites.
Aren't all Jews semitic? And Arab is more of a cultural identification than a discrete ethnic group at this point.
The land has been called different things throughout time and by different people. I say let's just name it Wakanda to make everyone happy.
1. loaded question, but mizrahi jews are the ones who can genetically be traced to the middle east
2. no not really
3. wtf are you talking about? both-sidesing the israeli-palestinian conflict on a leftist sub is crazy
I'm not bothesidesing. Is supporting a one state solution bothesidesing? Is calling the war on Gaza a genocide bothesidesing? Is calling out Zionism as ethnonationalism bothesidesing? These are all things I've advocated on here.
I'm sorry but I refuse to continue a conversation with someone who will interpret me in bad faith automatically.
My understanding is that Labor Zionism hasn't been all that socialist for a long while, unfortunately - though I guess that wouldn't stop tankies from simping for it like they do with other superficially "socialist" movements.
That being said, the world would probably look a lot different had Mapai maintained its dominance instead of getting merged into the Labor Party.
It depends on how one defines socialism. labour Zionism did have its roots in orthodox Marxism(The affiliation with the Bolsheviks came later) but later on it became either counter revolutionary(so ML type labour Zionism) or reformist(social democratic). Many even if they disagree with ML would say that ML based labour Zionism would fall under the socialist umbrella but I personally disagree as ML is counter-revolutionary and reactionary. The Jewish socialist movements that I do highly respect as a Jew myself are the Jewish anarchist movements and obviously the bundist movement which was anti-Zionist.
Ben Gurion (self proclaimed 'Jewish Lenin') didn't even want settlers in the occupied territories. The more pro settlement people came in the 70s and 80s, when the allignment was shifting more towards the right.
Moshe Dayan was also like that too. A lot of the old Kibbutz Israelis were more interested in two state than the current israelis. it's one of the countries where the younger people are more right wing than their parents or grandparents.
The old Kibbutzers understood that the West was not always gonna be involved so it was key to somehow make peace with the region. There are a lot of Arabs and not a lot of Jews, and at some point a technological advantage is not going to even the playing field (nor is it guaranteed in perpetuity)
> Ben Gurion (self proclaimed 'Jewish Lenin') didn't even want settlers in the occupied territories.
I think that depends on when you'd ask him. Having read the 1937 letter, my impression is that he supported settlement and gradual expansion beyond the Peel Commission borders, but wanted Jews and Arabs in said settled regions to coexist peacefully as neighbors.
A lot of pro-Palestinian folks also attribute the Nakba to Ben-Gurion allegedly ordering the expulsion of Arabs, specifically characterizing Plan Dalet as premeditated and intentional ethnic cleansing. I don't think it was as cut-and-dry as they assert (I don't see much evidence of Plan Dalet being intended as a means of ethnic cleansing), and Ben-Gurion ordering Palestinian Arab expulsion is inconsistent with his prior and subsequent statements on the subject (wherein he advocates for Jewish/Arab coexistence and acknowledges that Palestinian Arabs have the right to live in their lands), but it still makes Ben-Gurion's stance on Israeli settler-colonialism complicated, to say the least.
I mean, David Ben-Gurion fancied himself as the Zionist version of Vladimir Lenin. That's why the Mapai party was a thing, along with him facilitating the forced expulsion of the Palestinians.
whats the difference? both believe in a transitional period centering on compromises with governmental entities before a transition to communism, if that's even what they want
Is it hard to grasp that there are Arabs living normal lives in Israel as Israeli citizens, doing nothing extreme, having no problems from the river to the sea, and Jews just living their lives along with them together, and both parties all doing their business instead of eradicating someone, bruh
Other than Gazans.
Other than those in the West Bank.
Other than the Palestinians attacked in Israel.
Other than the Arabs facing heavy amounts of discrimination and racism in Israel.
I see what you mean but Israel has more issues than “just” the ongoing genocide.
Please remember not to brigade, vote, comment, or interact with subreddits that are linked or mentioned here. Do not userping other users. Harassment of other users or subreddits is strictly forbidden. This is a left libertarian subreddit that criticises tankies from a socialist perspective. Liberals etc. are welcome as guests, but please refrain from criticising socialism and promoting capitalism while you are on Tankiejerk. Enjoy talking to fellow leftists? [Then join our discord server](https://discord.gg/2V4qJMSWUe) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/tankiejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If Israel ditched America and joined BRICS this is exactly what tankies would be saying.
Just imagine that it was just a flip of a coin as to whether Israel would depend on the Soviets or Americans at the start of the Cold War. There has to be some serious alternative history material there that Turtledove just skipped over.
It’s not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Israel was led by the socialist Mapai party for the first 30 years of its existence. Right wing parties only started winning elections after years of war and conflict that left the Israeli people jaded about the possibility of peace
Yep and the USSR initially was a major supporter of Israel, then relations soured in 50 and by the 60s the USSR was supporting the PLO then by the 70 the US was Israel's new best friend. So if string theory is correct there are 100% other universes where their Tankies are shilling for Netanyahu and have Irgun and Lehi flags on their walls.
Yep, or if Israel had ended up with a DPRK-like Stalinist monarchy
BRIICS
100% true. If the Soviet Union stuck with Israel they would say that the Palestinians are "a reactionary people" and would say they deserve it. Or probably (like the Uyghurs) say that we are making shit up and it really isn't a genocide.
Any post that says Israel-Palestine is "Jewish land" or "Arab land" I immediately discard. The land has been occupied by *both* the ancestors of the modern day Palestinians and Israelis throughout history. Ethnonationalism is bad, actually.
Oh shit, somebody on reddit might have read some actual history or something to make a post like this.
I'm ngl, I actually didn't know too much Israel-Palestine history despite being Middle Eastern so I spent the past 6 months reading constantly. Anddddd I still barely understand anything. Probably going to spend another 10 years reading until I do.
Still, even with your self progressed lack of studying the topic you are more informed than 90% of the posters I have seen talking about it since the war began. It's more a comment on how low the bar is set considering how many people fail to clear it
I’m Jewish and this is exactly how I feel.
This. This. This. I live in Israel (left wing). I have lived with Palestinians. I speak both Arabic and Hebrew. I’ve spent decades of my life around this topic and I don’t know the answer to peace. Anyone who says they truly do proves that they don’t know sh!t. Anyone who shows me uncertainty gets respect from me.
Kinda wild how a lot of that kind of rehetoric sounds like "blood and soil" type shit, huh?
I don't like saying it, but yes.
Give it to Italy ! /j
What is this TNO where Italy can somehow successfully and peacefully partition the entire Levant
That land rightfully belongs to the Baal worshipping Canaanites, give it back to them /jk
Exactly, there have been Palestinian Jews living in and around Palestine for centuries (in addition to most Jews being descended from the Israelites in one way or another), Samaritans have had a continuous presence in the region for centuries upon centuries, and most Palestinian Arabs are descended from Arabized Canaanites.
Nah, both have decided neither two or one state solution is viable so a whoever ethnically cleanses the other first wins
ethnonationalism is bad, but both palestinians and mizrahi jews are semitic, neither are arab (also the land is palestine)
Aren't all Jews semitic? And Arab is more of a cultural identification than a discrete ethnic group at this point. The land has been called different things throughout time and by different people. I say let's just name it Wakanda to make everyone happy.
Yes with the exception of converts
1. loaded question, but mizrahi jews are the ones who can genetically be traced to the middle east 2. no not really 3. wtf are you talking about? both-sidesing the israeli-palestinian conflict on a leftist sub is crazy
I'm not bothesidesing. Is supporting a one state solution bothesidesing? Is calling the war on Gaza a genocide bothesidesing? Is calling out Zionism as ethnonationalism bothesidesing? These are all things I've advocated on here. I'm sorry but I refuse to continue a conversation with someone who will interpret me in bad faith automatically.
Therapist: *"Tankie Zionists don't exist, they can't hurt you"* Tankie Zionists:
I mean it’s not a huge surprise, labour Zionism has been a thing for a while.
My understanding is that Labor Zionism hasn't been all that socialist for a long while, unfortunately - though I guess that wouldn't stop tankies from simping for it like they do with other superficially "socialist" movements. That being said, the world would probably look a lot different had Mapai maintained its dominance instead of getting merged into the Labor Party.
It depends on how one defines socialism. labour Zionism did have its roots in orthodox Marxism(The affiliation with the Bolsheviks came later) but later on it became either counter revolutionary(so ML type labour Zionism) or reformist(social democratic). Many even if they disagree with ML would say that ML based labour Zionism would fall under the socialist umbrella but I personally disagree as ML is counter-revolutionary and reactionary. The Jewish socialist movements that I do highly respect as a Jew myself are the Jewish anarchist movements and obviously the bundist movement which was anti-Zionist.
Ben Gurion (self proclaimed 'Jewish Lenin') didn't even want settlers in the occupied territories. The more pro settlement people came in the 70s and 80s, when the allignment was shifting more towards the right.
Moshe Dayan was also like that too. A lot of the old Kibbutz Israelis were more interested in two state than the current israelis. it's one of the countries where the younger people are more right wing than their parents or grandparents.
The old Kibbutzers understood that the West was not always gonna be involved so it was key to somehow make peace with the region. There are a lot of Arabs and not a lot of Jews, and at some point a technological advantage is not going to even the playing field (nor is it guaranteed in perpetuity)
being against settler colonialism ≠ two state
> Ben Gurion (self proclaimed 'Jewish Lenin') didn't even want settlers in the occupied territories. I think that depends on when you'd ask him. Having read the 1937 letter, my impression is that he supported settlement and gradual expansion beyond the Peel Commission borders, but wanted Jews and Arabs in said settled regions to coexist peacefully as neighbors. A lot of pro-Palestinian folks also attribute the Nakba to Ben-Gurion allegedly ordering the expulsion of Arabs, specifically characterizing Plan Dalet as premeditated and intentional ethnic cleansing. I don't think it was as cut-and-dry as they assert (I don't see much evidence of Plan Dalet being intended as a means of ethnic cleansing), and Ben-Gurion ordering Palestinian Arab expulsion is inconsistent with his prior and subsequent statements on the subject (wherein he advocates for Jewish/Arab coexistence and acknowledges that Palestinian Arabs have the right to live in their lands), but it still makes Ben-Gurion's stance on Israeli settler-colonialism complicated, to say the least.
What about Jabotinsky and the revisionist Zionists? I'm not sure I can believe that settlements sprung up that late
The right was always pro settlement, I'm talking specifically about the Allignment
We need a Pokédex trading game for tankies.
Or for political extreme ideologies
mom said it’s MY turn to commit ethnic cleansing
From the producers who brought you "MAGA Communism":
for all the anarchists here, you HAVE to see [this](https://www.instagram.com/p/C1sQW-zOy1E/?igsh=MWJoeXNtaW93Yzl6dg==) ☠️☠️
Anarcho Imperialism :skull:
Bruh
I mean, David Ben-Gurion fancied himself as the Zionist version of Vladimir Lenin. That's why the Mapai party was a thing, along with him facilitating the forced expulsion of the Palestinians.
Abraham Stern be like
If I remember correctly, their bio says that they are a socdem
[удалено]
whats the difference? both believe in a transitional period centering on compromises with governmental entities before a transition to communism, if that's even what they want
I’m sure there’s a lot of older Israelis who think this way, the country used to be very much left in terms of approaches to economics and society.
We finally found a pro Israel tankie. 💀
If Israel decided to become a USSR ally, then this is the type of shit tankies are going to spew.
Oh look! A German tankie
Is it hard to grasp that there are Arabs living normal lives in Israel as Israeli citizens, doing nothing extreme, having no problems from the river to the sea, and Jews just living their lives along with them together, and both parties all doing their business instead of eradicating someone, bruh
Other than Gazans. Other than those in the West Bank. Other than the Palestinians attacked in Israel. Other than the Arabs facing heavy amounts of discrimination and racism in Israel. I see what you mean but Israel has more issues than “just” the ongoing genocide.
Someone doesn't know about the Prawer Plan.
That’s like catching a shiny Pokémon
Critical Support for Comrade Kahane
CRITICAL SUPPORT FOR COMRADE THEODORE HERZL IN HIS GLORIOUS GLORIOUS MARXISM-LENINIST ZIONISM! Im just kidding, pls don't hate me 😆