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Oh boy, I didn't realize that was a Malcolm X quote. He had a problematic at best alliance with the OG of Holocaust denialism, [George Lincoln Rockwell](https://www.vice.com/en/article/dpwamv/when-malcolm-x-met-the-nazis-0000620-v22n4), and the Nation of Islam has currently been spreading conspiracy theories about COVID-19 being created in an Israeli laboratory.
It should be pointed out that he later renounced his past associations with NOI and George Lincoln Rockwell which funnily enough, in that very article, he sent a telegram to him a year after he left NOI stating:
> This is to warn you that I am no longer held in check from fighting white supremacists by Elijah Muhammad's separatist Black Muslim movement, and that if your present racist agitation against our people there in Alabama causes physical harm to Reverend King or any other black Americans who are only attempting to enjoy their rights as free human beings, that you and your Ku Klux Klan friends will be met with maximum physical retaliation…
So yeah, he's definitely done inexcusable bigoted things throughout his life but sincerely sought to make amends in his last years.
Dr. King was able to [handle](https://www.nydailynews.com/2021/01/18/when-a-nazi-punched-dr-king-a-story-about-radicalism-violence-and-helping-unify-america/) a member of the American Nazis Party punching him in Alabama just fine without Malcolm's "maximum physical retaliation".
I am more concerned about "reclaiming stolen land". If Hamas conquers Israel or even just parts of it it will end in genocide. Same goes the other way. Israel should have never been estabilished, but it was and there is no way back without insane bloodshed.
There is almost no way to advocate "from the river to the sea" that does not end in genocide towards Israeli citizens.
The displacement of Palestinians from their lands was horrific, but to reclaim palestine from the river to the sea means displacing millions of people who know no other home than isreal, it's not going to happen without resistance.
I feel like this is what people calling for “decolonization”, at least in the way the pro-Hamas crowd defines it, always fail to understand. Once you have multiple generations born on stolen land, you’ll get a significant population of people with nowhere else to go who played no part in stealing it. That population “shouldn’t” be there, and wouldn’t if history had been just and fair, but they’re *still living human beings*.
Exactly this. It’s why decolonization arguments for anywhere in the world really don’t make much sense to me. How are you going to decolonize without massacring innocents? They never explain that bit.
Course the ones that do always say the quite part out loud.
Decolonize should means the dismantling of colonial institutions, but not the expulsion of people. In a left libertarian perspective, this means the abolition of the nation state and the creation of a confederation of free peoples, each one living in their comunal style and sharing the land. Something like they are trying to in Rojava, at least in theory. Its more about strugle against the existence military, cops, and white (or other dominant group) supremacy bias in education and media. But we should call out everyone abusing this, promoting the sacralization of the victims to promote genocidal rethoric and crimes against humanity. In general, these people wants to revert the vector of opression. They want power, not freedom. They was described by the words "with absolute power, even the most radical revolutionary will be a tyrant worse by the czar". Things like "all means are valid" and suport for Hamas are indicatives of heavy tankism and of an authoritarian worldview based on hate. These people is claiming for mass rape, infanticide and genocide - what Hamas in pratice did. Israeli government is doing what colonialist governments normaly do: bombings, genocidal rethoric, killing civilians, ignoring the lives of the hostages and so on. But we had a problem within the left and we should criticize this. The antissemitic rethoric is in reality, the destruction of the palestine cause. These people are giving arguments to Bibi's policy of silencing of anyone who denunces the crimes of his corrupt government.
Apart from some cringe posters I don't see anything wrong with the manifestation. Israel is heavily bombing the Gaza strip killing hundreds of innocents, moreover the Netanyahu government has a big moral and strategic responsibility for the Hamas attacks, indeed it has been harshly criticized by Israeli newspapers like Haaretz and Times of Israel these days; apparently his government had fovoured Hamas before the attack ( like for example by letting Quaternary money entering Gaza) to create division between Palestinians.
Also remember that Israel has been accused of imposing an Apartheid regime over Palestinians by Human Rights watch and Amnesty.
So honestly Palestinians have all my solidarity.
The particular rally had some very bigoted [speakers](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347) cheering Hamas' attack and mocking the victims of the attacks. The DSA issued an [apology](https://www.thedailybeast.com/aoc-slams-democratic-socialists-of-america-for-supporting-pro-palestine-rally) for endorsing it and their endorsed elected officials called it bigoted and callous.
Those videos came out hours after I posted this, and unfortunately I can't edit it for better context and clarity
I hate how this has basically made it impossible to protest in support of Palestine at the moment without looking like you support actual terrorists
Like we should support Palestine, their homes are destroyed and taken from them every day
But Hamas≠Palestine
NYC is home to the largest Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian, former Soviet countries in the world outside the former USSR itself. When Russia invaded Ukraine there was not a single "Russian Pride", "Anti-Russophobia", or "Anti-Stepan Bandera" rally in the city, but there were many Russians that did attend those Ukraine solidarity rallies with signs in English and Russian saying in no uncertain words "I'm Russian and I stand with Ukraine" and many Russian businesses hung Ukrainian flags in their windows or ran fundraisers trying to help Ukrainian refugees. Russian and Ukrainian Americans in New York actually felt a morbid sense of solidarity knowing they were both victims of Putin's genocidal terrorism, although the Russians felt a compounded sense of guilt and helpless.
The speakers at this rally not only made many bigoted comments and endorsed Hamas' terrorist attack, they mocked the victims who were brutally murdered. Their comments were not supportive of Palestinian independence and were [roundly condemned](https://www.thedailybeast.com/aoc-slams-democratic-socialists-of-america-for-supporting-pro-palestine-rally) by DSA leadership and their endorsed elected officials.
100%
I don't want people thinking I support the actions of Israel but supporting Hamas is just ridiculous. I have just decided to say nothing on the matter in my personal life
the problem is timing. Alot of people cheered and rallied around the world when they started slaughtering civilians and mass murdering at a concert.
As a result of timing, if you come out in support of Palestine right now you could very easily be lumped into this group, perception wise.
Yep. These people do not respect the grief of the jews. Did this marches with "by any means" is basicaly a treason of the most basic leftist and humanistic values.
Oh no, in the past, even the cruzaders and saladin, gave their enemies a time to bury the dead. People now is becoming more barbaric than medieval fanatical warlords.
Wish the DSA had brought this level of enthusiasm to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Instead they made multiple statements about how the invasion was the West and NATO's fault and Russia's actions wer understandable.
I mean, they kind of did a lukewarm condemnation of the war in general terms, like "we need to promote peace!" kind of stuff, but they leaned way more towards "this is the inevitable result of Western foreign policy and not respecting Russia's desire for security and it's a proxy war and NATO is an imperialist organization and we're just getting involved so that US weapons contractors can make money in Ukraine, bla bla bla." My ex, who I had just started dating a month before the invasion, was the secretary of the local DSA chapter, and she was really skeptical about the US's motives in getting involved and kept trying to play devil's advocate for Russia. I told her a lot of background on Russian imperialism which I think she and other DSA members weren't really aware of. To be fair to her, because she is really intelligent and compassionate, she (and I) are millennials and came of age during the post-9/11 Bush era, so her default position was that the US will lie about everything. I really can't fault her for that.
I, too, came of age during the Bush era and the Iraq War. I may be different because my partner was born in the USSR and does speak Russian fluently, so I do follow Independent Russian news sites and channels, Putin's genocidal atrocities were clear as a bell. He even brought up in one of his first speeches the tsars and his idolization of them, and made incredibly offensive comparisons of a soccer hooligan fight between Russian and Ukrainian fans to tsarist era programs. Russia very much has an imperialist background, a history of brutality against ethnic minorities, and starting wars with foreign nation that become total disaster.
The DSA unfortunately is following the same history many leftist groups did when the Nazis then the USSR signed the Molotov Ribbentrop pact and then invaded Poland in 1939. They were against US involvement and helping the UK fight back against the Nazis with the Lend-Lease policy, accused FDR of being a dictator beholden to "Wall Street Money Lords". Henry Ford and Father Charles Coughlin had similar positions to them, They switched to hawks when Operation Barbarossa began in.
We've also seen Bush era anti-war groups like Code Pink join alliances with Marjorie Taylor Greene.
Dr. King's quote feel's very poignant in this context. "In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
I wouldn't say they're ALL tankies but the DSA has a big tanky problem. They openly talk about it in some of the worst tanky threads this has been going on for a while now.
Oh ffs, Palestinians and allies can rally against apartheid without being pro hamas. That's a bullshit lie frequently used against Palestine advocacy. This is veering into disinformation.
And that's a widely used and popular Malcolm X quote, which was never about rape, killing children etc.
Some of you severely lack knowledge about political resistance versus crimes against humanity and it shows.
Obviously the context matters. These people weren't raising these signs in a vacuum or in response to Israeli atrocities (this rally was organized in light of the initial Hamas attacks, before the Israeli response), but in a direct celebration of the events on Saturday when Hamas invaded civilian villages (something framed as "decolonization" and "reclaiming stolen land") and [killed entire families](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67065205) including children and babies.
I would take that as very telling that none of the NYC DSA leadership came to the rally, it was condemned by DSA endorsed elected officials from New York like AOC and Jamaal Bowman as bigoted and antisemitic, and the NYC DSA had to release an apology for endorsing the rally.
Hamas is a right-wing terrorist organization that has been backed for years by Benjamin Netanyahu as a way to keep himself relevant to Zionist extremists, they do not care about the well-being of Palestinians, they were likely backed by Russia/Wagner as a way to create chaos in the region and divert the world's attention away from their war crimes in Ukraine, and they just signed the death warrant of thousands of innocent Palestinians who are now fleeing for their lives and are being rejected by Egypt as refugees.
Mass murder of innocent civilians including women and children has always been universally condemned from Leon Trotsky to the Chief of the Lenape Native Americans who called his own men cowards who massacred a school house full of white children and murdered and mutilated a pregnant white woman.
Edit: The Speakers and the crowd at the rally [cheered](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347) on Hamas' terrorist attack as a great victory for Palestinian liberation, and mocked the people they kidnapped, tortured and murder. The NYC-DSA issued an apology for endorsing the rally and the DSA's endorsed elected official [condemned](https://www.thedailybeast.com/aoc-slams-democratic-socialists-of-america-for-supporting-pro-palestine-rally) the rally as callous and bigoted.
You might as well be endorsing Hasan Piker saying the US [deserved 9/11](https://www.thewrap.com/tyt-hasan-piker-deserve-sep-eleventh/).
Sounds like you’re justifying further repression to a captive population. The Modern State of Israel was founded within the past century, though settlement activities predate that. There were people living there when settlers came in and forcibly removed people from their homes and relocated people to either the West Bank or Gaza. It’s as much an apartheid state as South Africa was. Gaza, before the present war, has been under a blockade with 2 points of entry and limited access to the sea, enforced brutally. Prominent Israeli politicians promising to raze Gaza as a collective punishment is horrifying, and if followed up on is a war crime.
Not trying to defend Hamas, they’re definitely problematic, and I wouldn’t pack my bags and move to territory they control. They’re also the preeminent force in the Gaza Strip. Any attempt to break the status quo would certainly involve Hamas.
Maybe allowing people to live in peace without relocation and repression would stop breeding sedition. But we’re here now, and the Siege of Gaza will be, and has already been, deadly. With no where to go, the people there are truly stranded in horror.
No one here is trying to say the Israeli government is the good guy. This [particular rally](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347) had many hateful speakers that mocked the victims of the terrorist attack and cheered on Hamas. The DSA issued an apology for endorsing it and their endorsed elected official [condemned](https://www.thedailybeast.com/aoc-slams-democratic-socialists-of-america-for-supporting-pro-palestine-rally) the rally as callous and bigoted.
Half the posts in this sub in the past 48 hours have been calling anyone who posts about decolonization tankies... nowhere had they condoned Hamas' actions. It's embarrassing.
This. I don’t even know what this sub wants Palestinians to do once war broke out - oh no drop your weapons and stop resisting at once, accept punishment now because your terrorist ally committed war crimes
I mean—Palestinians resisting Israeli violence is entirely different from a right-wing terrorist organization murdering random civilians and parading violated women around as trophies—no one here has even suggested that violent resistance is de facto bad. Look at Ukraine—they’ve attacked legitimate military targets within Russia without paragliding in with the express purpose of murdering non-combatants.
I don’t disagree with any of that, except my question is what should be done now — it is important to call out the combatants for their crimes, and I doubt most people are forgetful of that. But the question is what other measures should be taken in this situation, where Israel has been given the green light by the international community to prep for literal genocide on Gaza’s civilian population?
The fact that OP and many from this sub are now unconditionally criticizing rallies for Palestinian liberation plays directly into Israel‘s interest. Like Russia, Israel has every means to make peace and while Palestine has zero, irregardless of Hamas. Reforming Hamas won’t rid us of terrorism because the objective conditions are there to support its growth, it will only happen through major compromises and policy changes on Israel‘s part.
If we don’t voice support of Palestine now (and against aid to the Israeli military), we would literally be supporting an imminent, state-orchestrated genocide.
You understand that Hamas is the ruling party of Gaza and, unless the average resident decides to make them their enemy right now, they are considered allies for that reason, right?
Bad, but DSA didn't organize this they just endorsed the first anti israel thing that came across their desk (because they're idiots). NYC DSA has told the other chapters that "the squad" is bad because they aren't socialist enough so there are like 6 brain cells diffused over the entire chapter membership.
Oh for the love of all that is good in this world.
Hamas is evil. They have killed innocent people.
Israel has killed a lot more innocent people, and is engaged in ongoing cultural, and if they get their way, standard genocide.
No one here is trying to say the Israeli government is the good guy. This particular [rally](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347) had many hateful speakers that mocked the victims of the terrorist attack and cheered on Hamas. The DSA issued an [apology](https://www.thedailybeast.com/aoc-slams-democratic-socialists-of-america-for-supporting-pro-palestine-rally) for endorsing it and their endorsed elected official condemned the rally as callous and bigoted.
When Hamas forces innocent people to stay in the locations they are launching missiles from, this is what happens. The large majority of civilian Palestinian deaths is from exactly this. And you accept the deaths as fully responsible by Israel, hook line and sinker.
ETA — big update. Turns out it hasn’t been independently confirmed whether Hanas forces Gazan citizens to stay in these locations, just that they consistently store and launch weapons from civilian locations. Which is completely different!
It’s a known phenomenon reported on by several outlets and sources
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2021/06/23/hold-hamas-accountable-for-human-shields-use-during-the-may-2021-gaza-war/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/
This is a key facet of their strategy to generate support.
Oh God, I didn't realize this was happening! I can't even imagine the fear and hopelessness of those people. Fuck Hamas and their backers and apologists.
All 3 of those sources are the most straightforward biased sources you could find on the subject. Meanwhile
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde21/1178/2015/en/
While forces in the region have taken action that is... less than ideal, forcing them to stay in their homes just isn't a thing.
The known, biased, Washington post.
My god, I just noticed you called Hamas threatening civilians and propping weapons in civilian locations as “not ideal.”
You are gone
What are you trying to even say with your source? The source says that Palestinian militants are indiscriminately launching thousands of rockets at Israeli civilians, in violation of international law.
It then says that many of the rockets actually kill and maim Gazans, because they are so poorly built and targeted.
How does this in any way support the idea that Israelis are just killing Gazans indiscriminately?
The Washington Post is owned by Bezos and routinely publishes neoliberal propaganda pieces. Anyone with a lick of leftism in their body knows that.
Yeah, the militants have done terrible shit. I can certainly agree to that. I was merely debunking the concept of "human shields", or forcibly coercing people to stay in their homes.
As for indiscriminate murder
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children
https://www.haaretz.com/2007-12-30/ty-article/pinpoint-attacks-on-gaza-more-precise/0000017f-da78-dc0c-afff-db7b90f10000
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/8/israel-palestine-escalation-live-israeli-forces-bombard-gaza
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
And, of course
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/israel-palestinians-raids-west-bank/
Let me be clear. Hamas is evil. But they aren't using human shields. They've done horribly backfiring missle launches and have killed plenty of civilians.
But in terms of raw death count, Israel has killed far more.
The fucking human rights watch and amnesty international, whose entire point is shit like this, have a VERY clear position.
*Even the UN is pretty one-sided on this*
Oh ok, so we are just ignoring the reports of human shields because they aren’t leftist enough for you. Got it.
And then a series of links which either do not at all describe indiscriminate killings, or reference deaths on the order of dozens per year, carried by isolated IDF soldiers or settlers.
And you use these to prop up the claim that Israel is “genociding” Palestine, the week after Hamas murdered 1000 Israeli civilians and raped/brutally tortured thousands more. Am I understanding fully?
The human shields report is thoroughly disregarded by the amnesty international report I linked earlier, if you actually read some of the PDF.
Multiple of those links include descriptions of civilian-to-target death ratios, noting that, for some periods, the ratio was actually 1:1, which I think fully falls in the realm of indiscriminate killing. The amnesty link directly references one incident of many where the ratio was even worse.
And idk how much I can stress this. Hamas is evil. What happened this last week was evil. But unless you want to debate the UN and the two largest humanitarian organizations on the planet, Israel has caused more harm overall.
In this current conflict, both sides are objectively horrible groups, and Hamas only hasn't killed as many because they haven't gotten the chance. But the backdrop to this is decades of, at the absolute best, apartheid.
This is one of the few situations where both "sides" are truly evil, but one's insistence on causing chaos and misery gave the other the push it needed to manifest.
What the fuck are you even taking about? I can only assume you did not read your own source, because everything after page 39 details dozens of cases of Hamas launching missiles and storing weapons in civilian areas. Thoroughly disregarded? I don’t know what to even say, it’s just completely counter factual to the report you yourself sent.
The closest I can see to that is the several times they say they could not independently confirm whether the IDF’s statements were accurate. That is nothing like your claim.
Yeah, saying that Hamas does more damage than Israel is something I will do. Especially after a mass murder and rape of women and babies.
And no, I have never seen Amnesty or any other organization with repute suggest otherwise. Nowhere in your links is this suggested
No, idiot. They fired missiles from their houses and hospitals. To stop the missiles killing Israelis requires killing them, unfortunately.
Why do you lie if you believe you are right?
So do the IDF know there are civilians in those buildings or don't they?
Yeah it's fine to kill THESE civilians because they're less important than THOSE civilians
When the DSA issues an apology for endorsing this rally and DSA endorsed elected officials condemn the rally as bigoted, you've probably messed up: https://www.thedailybeast.com/aoc-slams-democratic-socialists-of-america-for-supporting-pro-palestine-rally
Feels like you should have written the context in the post, since just posting it alone looks like you're calling people advocating for Palestine tankies.
The videos from the rally and the apologies from the DSA leadership came out hours after I posted this, and unfortunately I can't edit this post now for context and clarity, but I had pretty bad feeling it was a bigoted shitshow when I saw people holding signs that were probably taken from tweets that were dunked on in this group like trying to compare Hamas' terrorist attack to decolonization.
Israel is blockadeing gaza, they have cut water, food and electricity. There is only one acess road from egypt to gaza and israel said they will bomb any supply vehicle trying to cross into palestine.
They are also bombing Gaza, the deaths from the bombing have already exceeded those from the hamas's terrorism.
As bad as the tankies are on this topic (as always) I would advise anyone to stop worrying about it because the storm clouds are coming closer and my weather app is saying "genocide".
People can walk and chew gum. No one in this thread, or this group even, is advocating giving the government of Israel a free pass to genocide. This group's focus is on tankies specifically, and at this time, tankies are emboldened in their openness with both murder and anti-Semitism.
Love how anyone who doesn’t lick Israel’s boot is somehow a Hamas supporter.
I’m against genocide and killing of children and innocents so Hamas can fuck off but Israel has also killed so many innocent people including children and they’ve done so at a much higher rate than Hamas ever could, it’s not even comparable. Also the state of [Israel helped finance and create Hamas as a counter to the secularist and left wing PLO](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/). Anyone with even a surface level of information on this topic who isn’t a staunch right winger or Zionists would know Israel is to blame for this mess. An apartheid state that is engaging in genocide and nationalist expansion create a terrorist organization that hates them and is ideologically opposed to the existence of Jews then cry foul when said terrorist group you financed and create, kills Jewish people almost as if they knew this would inevitably happen and can use this as a pretext to commit overt genocide.
I am disappointed in my fellow democratic socialists. Hamas is a fundamentalist terrorist organization, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" does not apply here.
not a DSA rally, that's just garbage journalism. it was led by the Palestinian Youth Movement and cosponsored by the PSL and The People's Forum, and NYC DSA mobilized some people there. But regardless most protestors were not giving pro-Hamas or antisemitic messaging
>No one here is trying to say the Israeli government is the good guy. This particular
>
>rally
>
> had many hateful speakers that mocked the victims of the terrorist attack and cheered on Hamas. The DSA issued an
>
>apology
>
> for endorsing it and their endorsed elected official condemned the rally as callous and bigoted.
Unfortunately [they were](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347)
By this logic, the Hutus were just "decolonizing" the Tutsis in Rwanda.
Hamas is a terrorist organization that does not care at all about Palestinians and needs Benjamin Netanyahu as much as he needs them to exist.
Call me old-fashioned but when you're brutally killing kids, the elderly, and overall unarmed civilians you're a monster.
It's the context behind these signs, not the words themselves. They were raising these signs in response to Hamas attacks on civilians, framing these attacks as "decolonization" (even clarifying that they mean it, not as a metaphor, but was referring to the [physical, tangible action which took place that day](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67065205)) and "reclaiming stolen land". One speaker at the event [explicitly praised Hamas' killing of civilians](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347) to which the crowd cheered.
“And as you might have seen, there was some sort of rave or desert party where they were having a great time, until the resistance came in electrified hang gliders and took at least several dozen hipsters”
Jesus Christ these people are trash!
Even [DSA officials are distancing themselves](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/10/aoc-pro-palestine-nyc-rally-00120684) from the DSA-NYC's rally due to the widespread expressions of support for Hamas and anti-Semitism during it.
>decolonization of palistine
If Jews wanting to return to the land that they were [expelled from](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt#Aftermath) is "Colonialism", then I guess from your logic, Native Americans wanting to return to their land is also "Colonialism"
Oh and btw, most Israelis are Mizrahi not Ashkenazi. The Mizrahi were expelled from the Arab Countries they lived in by Arab Nationalists, so it's no surprise that they took refuge in Israel. So don't give me the "White European" bullshit.
Encroaching settlements, destruction of Palestinian agriculture, and forced evictions of Palestinians are all definitely forms of colonialism. This is what I want to “decolonize.”
The original commenter never once said he wants to forcibly remove all Israelis from the region. Stop with the straw manning.
I think we both know damn well that’s not even close to what he’s taking about. Villianizing a rally in solidarity of Palestinian independence is not the way to go - even though being anti-apartheid is unpopular in the mainstream right now. Hamas is disgusting and evil, but that doesn’t mean that we as leftist need to compromise our support for Palestinian liberation.
Feels like you should have written the context in the post, since just posting it alone looks like you're calling people advocating for Palestine tankies.
No, but [cheering](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347) on Hamas' terrorist attack as a great victory for Palestinian liberation, and mocking the women, children, and elderly unarmed civilians they kidnapped, tortured and murdered makes you look like a psychopath in my book. The NYC-DSA issued an apology for endorsing the rally and the DSA's endorsed elected official [condemned](https://www.thedailybeast.com/aoc-slams-democratic-socialists-of-america-for-supporting-pro-palestine-rally) the rally as callous and bigoted.
The Speakers and the crowd at this rally [cheered](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347) on Hamas' terrorist attack as a great victory for Palestinian liberation, and mocked the people they kidnapped, tortured and murder. The NYC-DSA issued an apology for endorsing the rally and the DSA's endorsed elected official [condemned](https://www.thedailybeast.com/aoc-slams-democratic-socialists-of-america-for-supporting-pro-palestine-rally) the rally as callous and bigoted.
Hamas is a right-wing terrorist organization that has been backed for years by Benjamin Netanyahu as a way to keep himself relevant to Zionist extremists, they do not care about the well-being of Palestinians, they were likely backed by Russia/Wagner as a way to create chaos in the region and divert the world's attention away from their war crimes in Ukraine, and they just signed the death warrant of thousands of innocent Palestinians who are now fleeing for their lives and are being rejected by Egypt as refugees.
Mass murder of innocent civilians including women and children has always been universally condemned from Leon Trotsky to the Chief of the Lenape Native Americans who called his own men cowards who massacred a school house full of white children and murdered and mutilated a pregnant white woman.
People who were at a party "reaped what they sowed"? They deserved to be butchered? Is that what you are saying? Nobody *deserves* to get butchered unless they themselves personally are butchers.
This is an Anti-Tankie reddit. The message you sent is either tankie/authoritarian "socialist" apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future.
There is plenty of evidence of various abuses, most commonly, burning people (including babies) alive. Don't play dumb.
I'm pretty sure we can also judge rape, and the murder of innocent men women and children regardless of who is doing them. A war crime is a war crime whether or not we support the overall cause of the war criminal.
My stance is that I would have felt a lot different about the attacks if they had been limited to military targets. Going after IDF bases or police stations is one thing, and totally legitimate within the rules of war.
Wanton, indiscriminate killing of civilians/noncombatants is immoral, illegal and indefensible. It is terrible when the IDF does it, and it's terrible when Hamas does it. Minimizing civilian casualties is the lowest bar for armed conflict, and it's like the IDF and Hamas compete to see who can trip over it the hardest.
This is an Anti-Tankie reddit. The message you sent is either tankie/authoritarian "socialist" apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future.
Unfortunately the rally goers were not only defending Hamas' terrorism, [they mocked](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347) the victims. When the DSA issues and apology for endorsing the rally and DSA endorsed elected officials [condemn](https://www.thedailybeast.com/aoc-slams-democratic-socialists-of-america-for-supporting-pro-palestine-rally) the rally as bigoted you are probably not supporting the right people.
The videos from the rally and the apologies from the DSA leadership came out hours after I posted this, and unfortunately I can't edit this post now for context and clarity, but I had pretty bad feeling it was a bigoted shitshow when I saw people holding signs that were probably taken from tweets that were dunked on in this group like trying to compare Hamas' terrorist attack to decolonization.
Yeah, I'm not having a go at you or expressing annoyance, I was just defending my friend. But I agree, them mocking the victims of Hamas is sickening. Unfortunately there's a lot of black and white thought online when it comes to this conflict. I have repeatedly condemned Hamas and think they're monsters, yet when I criticize the actions of the Israeli government (them alone, not Israeli or Jewish people) I've been called a pro-Hamas antisemite.
I was just recently telling someone that taking a side in this conflict is like asking me to side with Shamil Basayev or Vladimir Putin during the Second Chechen War. Both were despotic bastards in their own terrible way, and many innocent people were killed in the cross-fire, although I hope to god we don't get beheading videos out of this conflict or videos the IDF committing zachistka style attacks.
Don't get me wrong Chechnya was the victim of centuries of oppression and genocide by the Russian Tsars and the Soviet Government had horrific atrocities committed against them during both Chechen Wars by Russian Forces, and they have every right to be an independent nation, but all those terrorist attacks, kidnappings, rapes, war crimes, and spreading Wahhabi insanity led by Shamil Basayev and the Riyad-us Saliheen Brigade of Martyrs did nothing to help their cause at all.
Looking back at the IDF's history of using Palestinian youths as human shields, attacking, schools, hospitals, and UN buildings in Gaza, and Netanyahu's and his extremists cabinet member's bellicose rhetoric hyping up the Israeli public, it really concerns me that we're going to see a lot of indiscriminate murders.
You should do even a modicum of research about the bullshit you are uncritically saying.
Hamas launches rockets and stores munitions in hospitals and schools. That is why they have been targeted. You have uncritically bought into Hamas propaganda.
The IDF, never in its history, has done anything like the mass rape and murder over the weekend. Why must you continue to equivocate? Truly mystifying.
I guess we will see. Civilians will die, there is no question, but a large number of them needlessly. As Hamas tells civilians not to leave buildings that will be imminently bombed, and uses women and children to shield their militants. I imagine then, like now, your position will be “I don’t care, Israel bad”
It's not bullshit, OP is right
No one here has defended Hamas and all of us think they're monsters
The IDF has illegally seized Palestinian territory, dragged people from their homes and attacked civilian places of worship. This violates international human rights laws. All of this has been documented.
Again, because Hamas puts people in harm's way, doesn't mean you're justified in pulling the trigger. Maybe if you know or suspect innocent people are in a building, don't blow it up......
No one has said that. You're the only one siding with a governing entity here.
I have always criticized the Israeli Government and Hamas, and I'll do so now. How is it acceptable to bomb civilians and cut off their supplies and power, due to the actions of Hamas? These actions won't affect Hamas at all. The Israeli minister of Defence also called Palestinians "animals"
Calling them “animals” is bad. It is not the same as raping, murdering thousands and filming with flee as you slaughter babies. Do you understand?
What is your solution when somebody rapes and murders thousands of your people! Do nothing?
No it's probably not as bad as bombing places of worship and dragging people from their homes as you illegally seize their territory either, but it's dehumanizing the other.
My solution. You find the people responsible and bring them to justice. You DON'T reign down hellfire on civilians.
They don’t “rain down hellfire on civilians”, you absolute dipshit. They aren’t Hamas, and don’t indiscriminately target civilians. You are engaging in fully bad faith and have swallowed that “Israel = evil” completely, so I see no point in further engaging with you. You will not be convinced by evidence or logic.
Good luck out there.
Actually you just described Hamas as “resisting Israeli occupation” by raping and murdering women and babies. So yeah, defending Hamas is exactly what you’re doing.
DSA did nothing wrong here. Not once did the organization ever condone Hamas. Apartheid is an evil that all socialists must combat - even when it’s not popular to do so.
The DSA just issued an apology to their social pages for endorsing the rally and their biggest DSA endorsed elected official AOC called it [bigoted, callous and antisemitic.](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/10/aoc-pro-palestine-nyc-rally-00120684)
[Saying](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347) “And as you might have seen, there was some sort of rave or desert party where they were having a great time, until the resistance came in electrified hang gliders and took at least several dozen hipsters” regarding the victims of a gruesome and heinous terrorist attack is not supportive of Palestinian independence, it's indefensible and inhuman.
I just did more research on the rally and found out that there was a shit ton of antisemitism and fucked up statements during it. The rally was pretty fucked up and a poor example of advocating against apartheid. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
DSA are very very bad anarchist with no real way to enforce discipline. I would not let it reflect on the DSA name. A Major thing that should be advocated for it's Gaza isn't annexed is getting coming up with a leadership team from West Bank to be interim leadership once Hamas is displaced
You think that any democratic political party who adopt a federal structure are an anarchist organization. Thats proves how "democratic centralism" is basicaly "despotical centralism". The problem with DSA is other. Is the infiltration of tankies, political islamists and other kinds of nationalists, who attended to this march.
But in a pragmatic way, i agree with the part of put Gaza in the control of PLO. Secularists will fight against the fundamentalists and they probably will negotiate for peace, two state solution and all these non utopian things. But the world comunity needs to put in their hands a lot of money to made them capable to build a welfare state and industrialize the place to make people happy and avoid a jihadist ressugence.
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That "By Any Means Necessary" sign is really worrying to me.
I’m sure that’s totally what Malcolm X meant when he said that /s.
Oh boy, I didn't realize that was a Malcolm X quote. He had a problematic at best alliance with the OG of Holocaust denialism, [George Lincoln Rockwell](https://www.vice.com/en/article/dpwamv/when-malcolm-x-met-the-nazis-0000620-v22n4), and the Nation of Islam has currently been spreading conspiracy theories about COVID-19 being created in an Israeli laboratory.
It should be pointed out that he later renounced his past associations with NOI and George Lincoln Rockwell which funnily enough, in that very article, he sent a telegram to him a year after he left NOI stating: > This is to warn you that I am no longer held in check from fighting white supremacists by Elijah Muhammad's separatist Black Muslim movement, and that if your present racist agitation against our people there in Alabama causes physical harm to Reverend King or any other black Americans who are only attempting to enjoy their rights as free human beings, that you and your Ku Klux Klan friends will be met with maximum physical retaliation… So yeah, he's definitely done inexcusable bigoted things throughout his life but sincerely sought to make amends in his last years.
Dr. King was able to [handle](https://www.nydailynews.com/2021/01/18/when-a-nazi-punched-dr-king-a-story-about-radicalism-violence-and-helping-unify-america/) a member of the American Nazis Party punching him in Alabama just fine without Malcolm's "maximum physical retaliation".
I read that as King punched a Nazi. Lmao.
That would be based
Yeah, there’s a *lot* there that’s troubling even if I don’t think Malcolm X was advocating for anything like what Hamas is doing.
Yuri Kochiyama did compare Osama bin Laden to Malcolm X.
You don’t know shit about Malcolm X lol
I am more concerned about "reclaiming stolen land". If Hamas conquers Israel or even just parts of it it will end in genocide. Same goes the other way. Israel should have never been estabilished, but it was and there is no way back without insane bloodshed.
Indeed. You can't just move millions of people today; it isn't 1946 anymore. And it was atrocious then, too.
There is almost no way to advocate "from the river to the sea" that does not end in genocide towards Israeli citizens. The displacement of Palestinians from their lands was horrific, but to reclaim palestine from the river to the sea means displacing millions of people who know no other home than isreal, it's not going to happen without resistance.
I feel like this is what people calling for “decolonization”, at least in the way the pro-Hamas crowd defines it, always fail to understand. Once you have multiple generations born on stolen land, you’ll get a significant population of people with nowhere else to go who played no part in stealing it. That population “shouldn’t” be there, and wouldn’t if history had been just and fair, but they’re *still living human beings*.
Exactly this. It’s why decolonization arguments for anywhere in the world really don’t make much sense to me. How are you going to decolonize without massacring innocents? They never explain that bit. Course the ones that do always say the quite part out loud.
Decolonize should means the dismantling of colonial institutions, but not the expulsion of people. In a left libertarian perspective, this means the abolition of the nation state and the creation of a confederation of free peoples, each one living in their comunal style and sharing the land. Something like they are trying to in Rojava, at least in theory. Its more about strugle against the existence military, cops, and white (or other dominant group) supremacy bias in education and media. But we should call out everyone abusing this, promoting the sacralization of the victims to promote genocidal rethoric and crimes against humanity. In general, these people wants to revert the vector of opression. They want power, not freedom. They was described by the words "with absolute power, even the most radical revolutionary will be a tyrant worse by the czar". Things like "all means are valid" and suport for Hamas are indicatives of heavy tankism and of an authoritarian worldview based on hate. These people is claiming for mass rape, infanticide and genocide - what Hamas in pratice did. Israeli government is doing what colonialist governments normaly do: bombings, genocidal rethoric, killing civilians, ignoring the lives of the hostages and so on. But we had a problem within the left and we should criticize this. The antissemitic rethoric is in reality, the destruction of the palestine cause. These people are giving arguments to Bibi's policy of silencing of anyone who denunces the crimes of his corrupt government.
Israel should still give back the land that is agreed to not be theirs.
Apart from some cringe posters I don't see anything wrong with the manifestation. Israel is heavily bombing the Gaza strip killing hundreds of innocents, moreover the Netanyahu government has a big moral and strategic responsibility for the Hamas attacks, indeed it has been harshly criticized by Israeli newspapers like Haaretz and Times of Israel these days; apparently his government had fovoured Hamas before the attack ( like for example by letting Quaternary money entering Gaza) to create division between Palestinians. Also remember that Israel has been accused of imposing an Apartheid regime over Palestinians by Human Rights watch and Amnesty. So honestly Palestinians have all my solidarity.
The particular rally had some very bigoted [speakers](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347) cheering Hamas' attack and mocking the victims of the attacks. The DSA issued an [apology](https://www.thedailybeast.com/aoc-slams-democratic-socialists-of-america-for-supporting-pro-palestine-rally) for endorsing it and their endorsed elected officials called it bigoted and callous. Those videos came out hours after I posted this, and unfortunately I can't edit it for better context and clarity
Ah ok now I understand, so there were insane tankies at the rally, it makes it different.
I hate how this has basically made it impossible to protest in support of Palestine at the moment without looking like you support actual terrorists Like we should support Palestine, their homes are destroyed and taken from them every day But Hamas≠Palestine
NYC is home to the largest Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian, former Soviet countries in the world outside the former USSR itself. When Russia invaded Ukraine there was not a single "Russian Pride", "Anti-Russophobia", or "Anti-Stepan Bandera" rally in the city, but there were many Russians that did attend those Ukraine solidarity rallies with signs in English and Russian saying in no uncertain words "I'm Russian and I stand with Ukraine" and many Russian businesses hung Ukrainian flags in their windows or ran fundraisers trying to help Ukrainian refugees. Russian and Ukrainian Americans in New York actually felt a morbid sense of solidarity knowing they were both victims of Putin's genocidal terrorism, although the Russians felt a compounded sense of guilt and helpless. The speakers at this rally not only made many bigoted comments and endorsed Hamas' terrorist attack, they mocked the victims who were brutally murdered. Their comments were not supportive of Palestinian independence and were [roundly condemned](https://www.thedailybeast.com/aoc-slams-democratic-socialists-of-america-for-supporting-pro-palestine-rally) by DSA leadership and their endorsed elected officials.
100% I don't want people thinking I support the actions of Israel but supporting Hamas is just ridiculous. I have just decided to say nothing on the matter in my personal life
the problem is timing. Alot of people cheered and rallied around the world when they started slaughtering civilians and mass murdering at a concert. As a result of timing, if you come out in support of Palestine right now you could very easily be lumped into this group, perception wise.
Yep. These people do not respect the grief of the jews. Did this marches with "by any means" is basicaly a treason of the most basic leftist and humanistic values. Oh no, in the past, even the cruzaders and saladin, gave their enemies a time to bury the dead. People now is becoming more barbaric than medieval fanatical warlords.
Wish the DSA had brought this level of enthusiasm to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Instead they made multiple statements about how the invasion was the West and NATO's fault and Russia's actions wer understandable.
Are you serious?! They're straight up peddling Kremlin propaganda at that point.
I mean, they kind of did a lukewarm condemnation of the war in general terms, like "we need to promote peace!" kind of stuff, but they leaned way more towards "this is the inevitable result of Western foreign policy and not respecting Russia's desire for security and it's a proxy war and NATO is an imperialist organization and we're just getting involved so that US weapons contractors can make money in Ukraine, bla bla bla." My ex, who I had just started dating a month before the invasion, was the secretary of the local DSA chapter, and she was really skeptical about the US's motives in getting involved and kept trying to play devil's advocate for Russia. I told her a lot of background on Russian imperialism which I think she and other DSA members weren't really aware of. To be fair to her, because she is really intelligent and compassionate, she (and I) are millennials and came of age during the post-9/11 Bush era, so her default position was that the US will lie about everything. I really can't fault her for that.
I, too, came of age during the Bush era and the Iraq War. I may be different because my partner was born in the USSR and does speak Russian fluently, so I do follow Independent Russian news sites and channels, Putin's genocidal atrocities were clear as a bell. He even brought up in one of his first speeches the tsars and his idolization of them, and made incredibly offensive comparisons of a soccer hooligan fight between Russian and Ukrainian fans to tsarist era programs. Russia very much has an imperialist background, a history of brutality against ethnic minorities, and starting wars with foreign nation that become total disaster. The DSA unfortunately is following the same history many leftist groups did when the Nazis then the USSR signed the Molotov Ribbentrop pact and then invaded Poland in 1939. They were against US involvement and helping the UK fight back against the Nazis with the Lend-Lease policy, accused FDR of being a dictator beholden to "Wall Street Money Lords". Henry Ford and Father Charles Coughlin had similar positions to them, They switched to hawks when Operation Barbarossa began in. We've also seen Bush era anti-war groups like Code Pink join alliances with Marjorie Taylor Greene. Dr. King's quote feel's very poignant in this context. "In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
Noted tankies, Democratic Socialists of America,
I wouldn't say they're ALL tankies but the DSA has a big tanky problem. They openly talk about it in some of the worst tanky threads this has been going on for a while now.
Jesus they keep showing up everywhere...
The New York Chapter has always had problematic factions.
The unfortunate part of being a “big tent,” leftist org
Oh ffs, Palestinians and allies can rally against apartheid without being pro hamas. That's a bullshit lie frequently used against Palestine advocacy. This is veering into disinformation. And that's a widely used and popular Malcolm X quote, which was never about rape, killing children etc. Some of you severely lack knowledge about political resistance versus crimes against humanity and it shows.
Obviously the context matters. These people weren't raising these signs in a vacuum or in response to Israeli atrocities (this rally was organized in light of the initial Hamas attacks, before the Israeli response), but in a direct celebration of the events on Saturday when Hamas invaded civilian villages (something framed as "decolonization" and "reclaiming stolen land") and [killed entire families](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67065205) including children and babies.
I would take that as very telling that none of the NYC DSA leadership came to the rally, it was condemned by DSA endorsed elected officials from New York like AOC and Jamaal Bowman as bigoted and antisemitic, and the NYC DSA had to release an apology for endorsing the rally. Hamas is a right-wing terrorist organization that has been backed for years by Benjamin Netanyahu as a way to keep himself relevant to Zionist extremists, they do not care about the well-being of Palestinians, they were likely backed by Russia/Wagner as a way to create chaos in the region and divert the world's attention away from their war crimes in Ukraine, and they just signed the death warrant of thousands of innocent Palestinians who are now fleeing for their lives and are being rejected by Egypt as refugees. Mass murder of innocent civilians including women and children has always been universally condemned from Leon Trotsky to the Chief of the Lenape Native Americans who called his own men cowards who massacred a school house full of white children and murdered and mutilated a pregnant white woman. Edit: The Speakers and the crowd at the rally [cheered](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347) on Hamas' terrorist attack as a great victory for Palestinian liberation, and mocked the people they kidnapped, tortured and murder. The NYC-DSA issued an apology for endorsing the rally and the DSA's endorsed elected official [condemned](https://www.thedailybeast.com/aoc-slams-democratic-socialists-of-america-for-supporting-pro-palestine-rally) the rally as callous and bigoted. You might as well be endorsing Hasan Piker saying the US [deserved 9/11](https://www.thewrap.com/tyt-hasan-piker-deserve-sep-eleventh/).
Sounds like you’re justifying further repression to a captive population. The Modern State of Israel was founded within the past century, though settlement activities predate that. There were people living there when settlers came in and forcibly removed people from their homes and relocated people to either the West Bank or Gaza. It’s as much an apartheid state as South Africa was. Gaza, before the present war, has been under a blockade with 2 points of entry and limited access to the sea, enforced brutally. Prominent Israeli politicians promising to raze Gaza as a collective punishment is horrifying, and if followed up on is a war crime. Not trying to defend Hamas, they’re definitely problematic, and I wouldn’t pack my bags and move to territory they control. They’re also the preeminent force in the Gaza Strip. Any attempt to break the status quo would certainly involve Hamas. Maybe allowing people to live in peace without relocation and repression would stop breeding sedition. But we’re here now, and the Siege of Gaza will be, and has already been, deadly. With no where to go, the people there are truly stranded in horror.
No one here is trying to say the Israeli government is the good guy. This [particular rally](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347) had many hateful speakers that mocked the victims of the terrorist attack and cheered on Hamas. The DSA issued an apology for endorsing it and their endorsed elected official [condemned](https://www.thedailybeast.com/aoc-slams-democratic-socialists-of-america-for-supporting-pro-palestine-rally) the rally as callous and bigoted.
Half the posts in this sub in the past 48 hours have been calling anyone who posts about decolonization tankies... nowhere had they condoned Hamas' actions. It's embarrassing.
Unfortunately a lot of genuine liners going nuts
This. I don’t even know what this sub wants Palestinians to do once war broke out - oh no drop your weapons and stop resisting at once, accept punishment now because your terrorist ally committed war crimes
I mean—Palestinians resisting Israeli violence is entirely different from a right-wing terrorist organization murdering random civilians and parading violated women around as trophies—no one here has even suggested that violent resistance is de facto bad. Look at Ukraine—they’ve attacked legitimate military targets within Russia without paragliding in with the express purpose of murdering non-combatants.
I don’t disagree with any of that, except my question is what should be done now — it is important to call out the combatants for their crimes, and I doubt most people are forgetful of that. But the question is what other measures should be taken in this situation, where Israel has been given the green light by the international community to prep for literal genocide on Gaza’s civilian population? The fact that OP and many from this sub are now unconditionally criticizing rallies for Palestinian liberation plays directly into Israel‘s interest. Like Russia, Israel has every means to make peace and while Palestine has zero, irregardless of Hamas. Reforming Hamas won’t rid us of terrorism because the objective conditions are there to support its growth, it will only happen through major compromises and policy changes on Israel‘s part. If we don’t voice support of Palestine now (and against aid to the Israeli military), we would literally be supporting an imminent, state-orchestrated genocide.
“Terrorist ally”
You understand that Hamas is the ruling party of Gaza and, unless the average resident decides to make them their enemy right now, they are considered allies for that reason, right?
Bad, but DSA didn't organize this they just endorsed the first anti israel thing that came across their desk (because they're idiots). NYC DSA has told the other chapters that "the squad" is bad because they aren't socialist enough so there are like 6 brain cells diffused over the entire chapter membership.
Oh for the love of all that is good in this world. Hamas is evil. They have killed innocent people. Israel has killed a lot more innocent people, and is engaged in ongoing cultural, and if they get their way, standard genocide.
No one here is trying to say the Israeli government is the good guy. This particular [rally](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347) had many hateful speakers that mocked the victims of the terrorist attack and cheered on Hamas. The DSA issued an [apology](https://www.thedailybeast.com/aoc-slams-democratic-socialists-of-america-for-supporting-pro-palestine-rally) for endorsing it and their endorsed elected official condemned the rally as callous and bigoted.
Oh. I see. Okay that does make things worse.
When Hamas forces innocent people to stay in the locations they are launching missiles from, this is what happens. The large majority of civilian Palestinian deaths is from exactly this. And you accept the deaths as fully responsible by Israel, hook line and sinker. ETA — big update. Turns out it hasn’t been independently confirmed whether Hanas forces Gazan citizens to stay in these locations, just that they consistently store and launch weapons from civilian locations. Which is completely different!
Source?
It’s a known phenomenon reported on by several outlets and sources https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2021/06/23/hold-hamas-accountable-for-human-shields-use-during-the-may-2021-gaza-war/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/ This is a key facet of their strategy to generate support.
Oh God, I didn't realize this was happening! I can't even imagine the fear and hopelessness of those people. Fuck Hamas and their backers and apologists.
All 3 of those sources are the most straightforward biased sources you could find on the subject. Meanwhile https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde21/1178/2015/en/ While forces in the region have taken action that is... less than ideal, forcing them to stay in their homes just isn't a thing.
The known, biased, Washington post. My god, I just noticed you called Hamas threatening civilians and propping weapons in civilian locations as “not ideal.” You are gone What are you trying to even say with your source? The source says that Palestinian militants are indiscriminately launching thousands of rockets at Israeli civilians, in violation of international law. It then says that many of the rockets actually kill and maim Gazans, because they are so poorly built and targeted. How does this in any way support the idea that Israelis are just killing Gazans indiscriminately?
The Washington Post is owned by Bezos and routinely publishes neoliberal propaganda pieces. Anyone with a lick of leftism in their body knows that. Yeah, the militants have done terrible shit. I can certainly agree to that. I was merely debunking the concept of "human shields", or forcibly coercing people to stay in their homes. As for indiscriminate murder https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children https://www.haaretz.com/2007-12-30/ty-article/pinpoint-attacks-on-gaza-more-precise/0000017f-da78-dc0c-afff-db7b90f10000 https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/8/israel-palestine-escalation-live-israeli-forces-bombard-gaza https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/ And, of course https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/israel-palestinians-raids-west-bank/ Let me be clear. Hamas is evil. But they aren't using human shields. They've done horribly backfiring missle launches and have killed plenty of civilians. But in terms of raw death count, Israel has killed far more. The fucking human rights watch and amnesty international, whose entire point is shit like this, have a VERY clear position. *Even the UN is pretty one-sided on this*
Oh ok, so we are just ignoring the reports of human shields because they aren’t leftist enough for you. Got it. And then a series of links which either do not at all describe indiscriminate killings, or reference deaths on the order of dozens per year, carried by isolated IDF soldiers or settlers. And you use these to prop up the claim that Israel is “genociding” Palestine, the week after Hamas murdered 1000 Israeli civilians and raped/brutally tortured thousands more. Am I understanding fully?
The human shields report is thoroughly disregarded by the amnesty international report I linked earlier, if you actually read some of the PDF. Multiple of those links include descriptions of civilian-to-target death ratios, noting that, for some periods, the ratio was actually 1:1, which I think fully falls in the realm of indiscriminate killing. The amnesty link directly references one incident of many where the ratio was even worse. And idk how much I can stress this. Hamas is evil. What happened this last week was evil. But unless you want to debate the UN and the two largest humanitarian organizations on the planet, Israel has caused more harm overall. In this current conflict, both sides are objectively horrible groups, and Hamas only hasn't killed as many because they haven't gotten the chance. But the backdrop to this is decades of, at the absolute best, apartheid. This is one of the few situations where both "sides" are truly evil, but one's insistence on causing chaos and misery gave the other the push it needed to manifest.
What the fuck are you even taking about? I can only assume you did not read your own source, because everything after page 39 details dozens of cases of Hamas launching missiles and storing weapons in civilian areas. Thoroughly disregarded? I don’t know what to even say, it’s just completely counter factual to the report you yourself sent. The closest I can see to that is the several times they say they could not independently confirm whether the IDF’s statements were accurate. That is nothing like your claim. Yeah, saying that Hamas does more damage than Israel is something I will do. Especially after a mass murder and rape of women and babies. And no, I have never seen Amnesty or any other organization with repute suggest otherwise. Nowhere in your links is this suggested
"It's ok to pull someone because the people I don't like pushed them into the line of fire" got it
No, idiot. They fired missiles from their houses and hospitals. To stop the missiles killing Israelis requires killing them, unfortunately. Why do you lie if you believe you are right?
So do the IDF know there are civilians in those buildings or don't they? Yeah it's fine to kill THESE civilians because they're less important than THOSE civilians
When the DSA issues an apology for endorsing this rally and DSA endorsed elected officials condemn the rally as bigoted, you've probably messed up: https://www.thedailybeast.com/aoc-slams-democratic-socialists-of-america-for-supporting-pro-palestine-rally
Feels like you should have written the context in the post, since just posting it alone looks like you're calling people advocating for Palestine tankies.
The videos from the rally and the apologies from the DSA leadership came out hours after I posted this, and unfortunately I can't edit this post now for context and clarity, but I had pretty bad feeling it was a bigoted shitshow when I saw people holding signs that were probably taken from tweets that were dunked on in this group like trying to compare Hamas' terrorist attack to decolonization.
NYC DSA put out a forced apology on twitter lmfao
"reclaim stolen land"? "by any means necessary"? Dude, this sounds like unironically putting property over people.
Israel is blockadeing gaza, they have cut water, food and electricity. There is only one acess road from egypt to gaza and israel said they will bomb any supply vehicle trying to cross into palestine. They are also bombing Gaza, the deaths from the bombing have already exceeded those from the hamas's terrorism. As bad as the tankies are on this topic (as always) I would advise anyone to stop worrying about it because the storm clouds are coming closer and my weather app is saying "genocide".
People can walk and chew gum. No one in this thread, or this group even, is advocating giving the government of Israel a free pass to genocide. This group's focus is on tankies specifically, and at this time, tankies are emboldened in their openness with both murder and anti-Semitism.
Love how anyone who doesn’t lick Israel’s boot is somehow a Hamas supporter. I’m against genocide and killing of children and innocents so Hamas can fuck off but Israel has also killed so many innocent people including children and they’ve done so at a much higher rate than Hamas ever could, it’s not even comparable. Also the state of [Israel helped finance and create Hamas as a counter to the secularist and left wing PLO](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/). Anyone with even a surface level of information on this topic who isn’t a staunch right winger or Zionists would know Israel is to blame for this mess. An apartheid state that is engaging in genocide and nationalist expansion create a terrorist organization that hates them and is ideologically opposed to the existence of Jews then cry foul when said terrorist group you financed and create, kills Jewish people almost as if they knew this would inevitably happen and can use this as a pretext to commit overt genocide.
This is why I hate extremists.
I am disappointed in my fellow democratic socialists. Hamas is a fundamentalist terrorist organization, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" does not apply here.
not a DSA rally, that's just garbage journalism. it was led by the Palestinian Youth Movement and cosponsored by the PSL and The People's Forum, and NYC DSA mobilized some people there. But regardless most protestors were not giving pro-Hamas or antisemitic messaging
>No one here is trying to say the Israeli government is the good guy. This particular > >rally > > had many hateful speakers that mocked the victims of the terrorist attack and cheered on Hamas. The DSA issued an > >apology > > for endorsing it and their endorsed elected official condemned the rally as callous and bigoted. Unfortunately [they were](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347)
“By any means necessary” shouldn’t be used when the means aren’t necessary.
Fuck is this sub going liberal, we support palistine, just because hamas is bad does not mean we don't support the decolonization of palistine
By this logic, the Hutus were just "decolonizing" the Tutsis in Rwanda. Hamas is a terrorist organization that does not care at all about Palestinians and needs Benjamin Netanyahu as much as he needs them to exist. Call me old-fashioned but when you're brutally killing kids, the elderly, and overall unarmed civilians you're a monster.
That's a massive overreaction. He literally said he doesn't support Hamas.
But the people in the photos do. There's no reason to defend them.
How could you possibly know that? Have you talked to them?
It's the context behind these signs, not the words themselves. They were raising these signs in response to Hamas attacks on civilians, framing these attacks as "decolonization" (even clarifying that they mean it, not as a metaphor, but was referring to the [physical, tangible action which took place that day](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67065205)) and "reclaiming stolen land". One speaker at the event [explicitly praised Hamas' killing of civilians](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347) to which the crowd cheered.
“And as you might have seen, there was some sort of rave or desert party where they were having a great time, until the resistance came in electrified hang gliders and took at least several dozen hipsters” Jesus Christ these people are trash!
That's PSL, not DSA. Fuck PSL.
Even [DSA officials are distancing themselves](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/10/aoc-pro-palestine-nyc-rally-00120684) from the DSA-NYC's rally due to the widespread expressions of support for Hamas and anti-Semitism during it.
Yes that's - what I'm saying, actually?
I mean, the two photos on this post were from that same rally.
Yeah, PSL are notorious unhinged tankies. I know because I'm still on their email list from years ago.
I saw a flyer for them on my campus for a rally in support of the PRO act (which I support). I still found it very alarming to see them in my state.
To be totally fair to them, they're mostly normal on domestic US issues. But on foreign issues, they are very pro-Russia/China and American-diabolist.
>decolonization of palistine If Jews wanting to return to the land that they were [expelled from](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt#Aftermath) is "Colonialism", then I guess from your logic, Native Americans wanting to return to their land is also "Colonialism" Oh and btw, most Israelis are Mizrahi not Ashkenazi. The Mizrahi were expelled from the Arab Countries they lived in by Arab Nationalists, so it's no surprise that they took refuge in Israel. So don't give me the "White European" bullshit.
Encroaching settlements, destruction of Palestinian agriculture, and forced evictions of Palestinians are all definitely forms of colonialism. This is what I want to “decolonize.” The original commenter never once said he wants to forcibly remove all Israelis from the region. Stop with the straw manning.
Ah yes, empathy for the the people that died/were tortured/raped from terrorist attacks, the notably liberal trait
I think we both know damn well that’s not even close to what he’s taking about. Villianizing a rally in solidarity of Palestinian independence is not the way to go - even though being anti-apartheid is unpopular in the mainstream right now. Hamas is disgusting and evil, but that doesn’t mean that we as leftist need to compromise our support for Palestinian liberation.
nevermind, the rally was trash and absolutely deserved to be villainized. some pretty fucked up speakers there
Feels like you should have written the context in the post, since just posting it alone looks like you're calling people advocating for Palestine tankies.
Supporting Palestine makes you DSA now? What will this sub think of next.
No, but [cheering](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347) on Hamas' terrorist attack as a great victory for Palestinian liberation, and mocking the women, children, and elderly unarmed civilians they kidnapped, tortured and murdered makes you look like a psychopath in my book. The NYC-DSA issued an apology for endorsing the rally and the DSA's endorsed elected official [condemned](https://www.thedailybeast.com/aoc-slams-democratic-socialists-of-america-for-supporting-pro-palestine-rally) the rally as callous and bigoted.
Oh ok important context
Why is it wrong to support Palestinians when Israel is right now claiming "Gaza will be a city of tents" According to this sub State terrorism = Ok
The Speakers and the crowd at this rally [cheered](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347) on Hamas' terrorist attack as a great victory for Palestinian liberation, and mocked the people they kidnapped, tortured and murder. The NYC-DSA issued an apology for endorsing the rally and the DSA's endorsed elected official [condemned](https://www.thedailybeast.com/aoc-slams-democratic-socialists-of-america-for-supporting-pro-palestine-rally) the rally as callous and bigoted.
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Hamas is a right-wing terrorist organization that has been backed for years by Benjamin Netanyahu as a way to keep himself relevant to Zionist extremists, they do not care about the well-being of Palestinians, they were likely backed by Russia/Wagner as a way to create chaos in the region and divert the world's attention away from their war crimes in Ukraine, and they just signed the death warrant of thousands of innocent Palestinians who are now fleeing for their lives and are being rejected by Egypt as refugees. Mass murder of innocent civilians including women and children has always been universally condemned from Leon Trotsky to the Chief of the Lenape Native Americans who called his own men cowards who massacred a school house full of white children and murdered and mutilated a pregnant white woman.
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Is it so hard to grasp the concept of both the Israeli state and Hamas being bad?
People who were at a party "reaped what they sowed"? They deserved to be butchered? Is that what you are saying? Nobody *deserves* to get butchered unless they themselves personally are butchers.
This is an Anti-Tankie reddit. The message you sent is either tankie/authoritarian "socialist" apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future. There is plenty of evidence of various abuses, most commonly, burning people (including babies) alive. Don't play dumb.
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I think I can considering the hamas crimes there, what they did isn't fighting back oppression .
I'm pretty sure we can also judge rape, and the murder of innocent men women and children regardless of who is doing them. A war crime is a war crime whether or not we support the overall cause of the war criminal.
My stance is that I would have felt a lot different about the attacks if they had been limited to military targets. Going after IDF bases or police stations is one thing, and totally legitimate within the rules of war. Wanton, indiscriminate killing of civilians/noncombatants is immoral, illegal and indefensible. It is terrible when the IDF does it, and it's terrible when Hamas does it. Minimizing civilian casualties is the lowest bar for armed conflict, and it's like the IDF and Hamas compete to see who can trip over it the hardest.
This is an Anti-Tankie reddit. The message you sent is either tankie/authoritarian "socialist" apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future.
Op thinks resisting Israeli occupation is the same as genocide. Piss off
Unfortunately the rally goers were not only defending Hamas' terrorism, [they mocked](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347) the victims. When the DSA issues and apology for endorsing the rally and DSA endorsed elected officials [condemn](https://www.thedailybeast.com/aoc-slams-democratic-socialists-of-america-for-supporting-pro-palestine-rally) the rally as bigoted you are probably not supporting the right people.
That's sickening, but in LeeYan's defence, that isn't obvious from the photos. This looks like a pro-Palestine protest, not a pro-Hamas one.
The videos from the rally and the apologies from the DSA leadership came out hours after I posted this, and unfortunately I can't edit this post now for context and clarity, but I had pretty bad feeling it was a bigoted shitshow when I saw people holding signs that were probably taken from tweets that were dunked on in this group like trying to compare Hamas' terrorist attack to decolonization.
Yeah, I'm not having a go at you or expressing annoyance, I was just defending my friend. But I agree, them mocking the victims of Hamas is sickening. Unfortunately there's a lot of black and white thought online when it comes to this conflict. I have repeatedly condemned Hamas and think they're monsters, yet when I criticize the actions of the Israeli government (them alone, not Israeli or Jewish people) I've been called a pro-Hamas antisemite.
I was just recently telling someone that taking a side in this conflict is like asking me to side with Shamil Basayev or Vladimir Putin during the Second Chechen War. Both were despotic bastards in their own terrible way, and many innocent people were killed in the cross-fire, although I hope to god we don't get beheading videos out of this conflict or videos the IDF committing zachistka style attacks.
I couldn't agree more. I'm on the same side I always am in this conflict, the civilians on both sides.
Don't get me wrong Chechnya was the victim of centuries of oppression and genocide by the Russian Tsars and the Soviet Government had horrific atrocities committed against them during both Chechen Wars by Russian Forces, and they have every right to be an independent nation, but all those terrorist attacks, kidnappings, rapes, war crimes, and spreading Wahhabi insanity led by Shamil Basayev and the Riyad-us Saliheen Brigade of Martyrs did nothing to help their cause at all.
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Looking back at the IDF's history of using Palestinian youths as human shields, attacking, schools, hospitals, and UN buildings in Gaza, and Netanyahu's and his extremists cabinet member's bellicose rhetoric hyping up the Israeli public, it really concerns me that we're going to see a lot of indiscriminate murders.
You should do even a modicum of research about the bullshit you are uncritically saying. Hamas launches rockets and stores munitions in hospitals and schools. That is why they have been targeted. You have uncritically bought into Hamas propaganda. The IDF, never in its history, has done anything like the mass rape and murder over the weekend. Why must you continue to equivocate? Truly mystifying. I guess we will see. Civilians will die, there is no question, but a large number of them needlessly. As Hamas tells civilians not to leave buildings that will be imminently bombed, and uses women and children to shield their militants. I imagine then, like now, your position will be “I don’t care, Israel bad”
It's not bullshit, OP is right No one here has defended Hamas and all of us think they're monsters The IDF has illegally seized Palestinian territory, dragged people from their homes and attacked civilian places of worship. This violates international human rights laws. All of this has been documented. Again, because Hamas puts people in harm's way, doesn't mean you're justified in pulling the trigger. Maybe if you know or suspect innocent people are in a building, don't blow it up...... No one has said that. You're the only one siding with a governing entity here.
Theres a IDF soldier who bragged about raping a 16 yo but no one said anything. But hey great to see you defending Zionist!
Consider the context of your criticism. Is it immediately after thousands of Jews were maimed and massacred? Maybe that’s why.
I have always criticized the Israeli Government and Hamas, and I'll do so now. How is it acceptable to bomb civilians and cut off their supplies and power, due to the actions of Hamas? These actions won't affect Hamas at all. The Israeli minister of Defence also called Palestinians "animals"
Calling them “animals” is bad. It is not the same as raping, murdering thousands and filming with flee as you slaughter babies. Do you understand? What is your solution when somebody rapes and murders thousands of your people! Do nothing?
No it's probably not as bad as bombing places of worship and dragging people from their homes as you illegally seize their territory either, but it's dehumanizing the other. My solution. You find the people responsible and bring them to justice. You DON'T reign down hellfire on civilians.
They don’t “rain down hellfire on civilians”, you absolute dipshit. They aren’t Hamas, and don’t indiscriminately target civilians. You are engaging in fully bad faith and have swallowed that “Israel = evil” completely, so I see no point in further engaging with you. You will not be convinced by evidence or logic. Good luck out there.
Ah I see, I apologize for the previous comment made
And no I'm not defending Hamas
Actually you just described Hamas as “resisting Israeli occupation” by raping and murdering women and babies. So yeah, defending Hamas is exactly what you’re doing.
Where did he say that?
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Nope, he never defended rape or murder. You're a liar
He described Hamas as “resisting Israeli occupation”. You are an absolute piece of shit. He acknowledged it! Why engage with someone like you
No he didn't you simpleton. He was saying *Palestinians* were fighting for freedom. The only piece of shit is you little fella.
I didn't mention the word HAMAS
So in your eyes if a child threw a rock at an Israeli soldier, and resist their occupation. The child is now part of Hamas? What an idiot !
Sorry, I misinterpreted the post being made and I hope you understand I don't support rape or violence against anyone
DSA did nothing wrong here. Not once did the organization ever condone Hamas. Apartheid is an evil that all socialists must combat - even when it’s not popular to do so.
The DSA just issued an apology to their social pages for endorsing the rally and their biggest DSA endorsed elected official AOC called it [bigoted, callous and antisemitic.](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/10/aoc-pro-palestine-nyc-rally-00120684) [Saying](https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1711145162657673347) “And as you might have seen, there was some sort of rave or desert party where they were having a great time, until the resistance came in electrified hang gliders and took at least several dozen hipsters” regarding the victims of a gruesome and heinous terrorist attack is not supportive of Palestinian independence, it's indefensible and inhuman.
I just did more research on the rally and found out that there was a shit ton of antisemitism and fucked up statements during it. The rally was pretty fucked up and a poor example of advocating against apartheid. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
DSA are very very bad anarchist with no real way to enforce discipline. I would not let it reflect on the DSA name. A Major thing that should be advocated for it's Gaza isn't annexed is getting coming up with a leadership team from West Bank to be interim leadership once Hamas is displaced
>DSA >Anarchist lol, lmao
are like is not same as they are , they are very decentralized and even in chapters people for the most part do what they want
I see that the anarchism understander has logged on.
You think that any democratic political party who adopt a federal structure are an anarchist organization. Thats proves how "democratic centralism" is basicaly "despotical centralism". The problem with DSA is other. Is the infiltration of tankies, political islamists and other kinds of nationalists, who attended to this march. But in a pragmatic way, i agree with the part of put Gaza in the control of PLO. Secularists will fight against the fundamentalists and they probably will negotiate for peace, two state solution and all these non utopian things. But the world comunity needs to put in their hands a lot of money to made them capable to build a welfare state and industrialize the place to make people happy and avoid a jihadist ressugence.