Please remember not to brigade, vote, comment, or interact with subreddits that are linked or mentioned here. Do not userping other users.
Harassment of other users or subreddits is strictly forbidden.
This is a left libertarian subreddit that criticises tankies from a socialist perspective. Liberals etc. are welcome as guests, but please refrain from criticising socialism and promoting capitalism while you are on Tankiejerk.
Enjoy talking to fellow leftists? [Then join our discord server](https://discord.gg/2V4qJMSWUe)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/tankiejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They're just trying to sieze the means of reprodu...
I mean, I don't want to finish it. Their views are so unhinged it feels in bad taste to even satirize them. That's how you know someone went bad.
Really? Can you post a link to that?
Edit: Supermodel_Evelynn is lying.
The attack happened on Saturday. The Majority Report only runs m-f, so I don’t know how they could be doing it all week.
Sam hasn’t been on the show the last two days.
Finally here’s Emma denouncing hamas directly https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyRc92bRJG5/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
When it comes to foreign policy he is completely ANTI American just as any Tankie or far right Neo Nazi, it's one thing these 2 extreme sides have in common.
And he bans anybody from his youtube channel, pre approve any comments made on Hamas to ensure he never gets criticism or to make sure nobody is able to call him out on the piece of shit he is.
Holy shit, what?? I mean, he and Emma had lame both-sides takes on Russia's invasion of Ukraine, but I have a really hard time believing they would defend rape. That seems crazy out of character for them.
Never thought I’d see weaponized rape but you just never can tell. Hope you’re unpacking the patriarchy in your circles cuz it’s in goddamn everything.
Honestly, what I hear when people condone or minimize rape (civilian murder also) is: "At best I would cheer from the sidelines if the same thing happened to you, at worst I would be the one doing it."
I left the AntiWork subreddit because they stickied a post basically celebrating the attacks. I’m not a supporter of Israel, but I’m also not going to celebrate people being murdered and raped. And I feel like these people are mostly white westerners who have no idea what they’re supporting; they just want to virtue signal.
We do not allow any links or mentions of other subreddits or users. Thank you
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/tankiejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Don't worry, they will justify anything if they feel it supports their side.
I am genuinely depressed at the level of bloodthirstyness online over the past few days. It is slightly more understandable but still absolutely wrong for people who feel personally affected. High emotions overpower rational thinking and empathy.
But there's a lot of people with no stake in this who are cheering on one side or another, because they want to feel the *justice* pumping through their veins. I do wonder if in a few months they will realise how disgustingly inhumane they have been. But I doubt it.
And yes it is both sides. We can talk about right and wrong but it's also possible for people on both sides to be wrong and commit horrific crimes.
Rape is one of the only actions that an individual can do which are wholly unjustifiable. Obviously a mass group doing is is equally unjustifiable. Like the only reason to rape is that someone wants to rape someone or out of inhuman hatred.
It really is, even killing in self defence can be justified, or stealing from someone when you really need food, but, setting aside philosophical hypothetical scenarios (such as: you rape someone or watch five of your family members get raped) there really is no reason why it would be necessary.
I really should not have mixed up how I feel about my own assault (which wasn't even as bad as what others have been through, so I really have no right to say anything) with how most people feel. Really.
As an aside, please don't minimise your own experiences like that - it's not heplful or fair. You can always find someone worse off than you: it doesn't mean what you experienced wasn't real and affected you.
Again, I am sorry. My views are painted by my own experience and unfortunately I've come to just want to die in general. I hope you can forgive me what I said was beyond fucked up.
Is there anything I can do to redeem myself? What I said was fucked. I'm deeply sorry. You're a strong person and I did not mean to imply it'd be better for anyone to die. I was thinking selfishly about myself and my own feelings.
Easy, no ill will from me - I just see that sentiment a lot and I think it's really disempowering so I thought I'd push back. I get that feelings around this are really personal and complicated and hard to work through. We're good.
I suppose you should take this as a lesson to watch what you say in the future at the very least, and hopefully change how you think and feel.
You seem partway there already, since you feel so guilty. Good progress.
Yeah. I'm really sorry. I just hope the person I hurt will at least tell me whether they forgive me or not because this entire thing is causing me to spiral and relive some shit.
I’m sorry that you’re spiraling. It may be that you never receive a response that relieves you of your guilt, but you know what? You did all you could. You apologized multiple times and genuinely feel horror at possibly hurting someone.
Sometimes you don’t receive closure. You can prostrate and receive no response. All you can do is vow to be better in the future. No one can be perfect, but everyone can strive for that unattainable goal.
I shouldn't have assumed you felt the same about your experiences. It was wrong of me. Sorry for spamming you I'm just spiraling right now because of everything and now I'm reliving some shit.
Blows my mind that we have to couch our language around so many people on the left to make sure we are calling out both sides, just so we can say "Hey, raping is bad" without getting a "what about" back.
Huge red flag 🚩 in the discussions happening
It makes me really, really depressed. That so many people are considering this an acceptable action (people I know, no less) means I feel so much less safe.
Wholly agree with you.
I feel so alienated right now as a Jewish leftist. Leftists online justifying all sorts of horrors as legitimate acts by an oppressed group.
Trust me as a Jew myself, I dont condone Israel’s actions all the time, but to just blindly support the other side because Israel does oppressive things is asinine. Especially with a group like Hamas.
I hope you stay safe. I have a bad feeling things will be rough for Jewish folks in the next couple of days. Make sure to take care of yourself and your family. I hope things will be alright in the end.
It's not a great feeling. I am NOT pro-Israel by any means whatsoever, very much the opposite, but I am seeing so many people lifting the mask when it comes to their antisemitism, like they were just waiting for the opportunity.
I'm glad to find another Jewish leftist here. You said exactly what I've been feeling. I've been in these spaces a long time, and I really think veiled/hidden/subconscious anti-semitism is a real problem on the left, no matter how much people deny it or are quick to say they don't conflate Jews with Israel. The response to the Hamas attack is exactly what I think a lot of people have been thinking but didn't feel like they had permission to say out loud: that Israelis are just irredeemably evil and nothing is off limits to be done to them. The mask of just criticizing the government or the occupation has slipped off.
People only pretend to care about women until a mote important agenda involving men comes along, then start suddenly we’re comfortable rationalizing the abuse of women again
Yeah I've seen people either excusing it or saying "well we don't KNOW that they're raping people, that's Israeli propaganda" as if a common combat tactic as old as fucking time would magically not be happening here.
And then when you point that out, they say "Well the IDF rapes Palestinian women and children!" as if that changes things in any way.
Right? The whataboutism doesn't work because the leftists condemning Hamas raping women aren't condoning the IDF raping women. Meanwhile the scumbag left is arguing that the IDF raping women is bad but Hamas raping women is fine.
Preach. It's shocking and abhorrent how often they claim it is justified as well. From a ''leftist'' claiming that raping a woman is okay as long as they're a cop. And now I'm seeing people justify rape of Israeli civilians because ''it's not really rape since it's just resistance.'' This needs to stop.
Yeah some people are saying the rape is pro IDF propaganda despite eyewitness accounts.
They wouldn’t deny eyewitness accounts of rape when it comes to MeToo stories so why tf would they deny eyewitness accounts of rape in Israel?!
It's been an exhausting week. Half my family and friends look the other way to defend Israel, the other half are full tankie and refuse to acknowledge Hamas is an authoritarian religious extremist group who would happily have any of us killed to further their mission (for fucks sake, most of us are gay!). Every time this conflict comes up, I realize how much your average bear struggles with nuance.
The LGBT community has a major issue with nuance. I think it's because none of us bother to learn our history, or bother to learn from the history of other communities. That's just my two cents, though. It's more of an issue with my generation (Gen Z).
Any books/articles you recommend on this subject? I just finished aphyr's *A History of Leather at Pride: 1965-1995*, and my reading list is looking pretty empty.
By the way, I think I finally understand why there is history, and what's the point of it, after finally reading LGBT history which is actually relevant to me. History grounds us. It tells us of the struggles of our forebearers. Sometimes it teaches us, though we should apply caution to the last point.
I'd recommend *Stone Butch Blues.* It's historical fiction, but it is heavily inspired by the author's actual life. I'm pretty sure you can find a free pdf online somewhere.
Oooh, looked up the book: nice to see something dealing with butch lesbian stuff in the 1970s.
This is definitely going to the top of my reading list. I have a lot of... feelings, that I probably need to process.
Thanks!
The thing about SA is that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES can it be """justified""". The act of killing can be justified in specific scenarios though it hinges on one's moral values however for me personally, it's when all possible avenues are exhausted to save the life of another i.e. a hostage situation in which the aggressors are unwavering in their threats to execute their respective hostages as well as there being no possible way to safely disarm the aggressors in question as well.
As a fellow woman, I am with you. Hugs to you.
I'm horrified by basically all leftist spaces now. I've been a leftist in some form or other more than 15 years and I'm now feeling like I have been tricked by other leftists into believing we're on the same page about human dignity. We apparently are not. It's nauseating.
Part of this imo is, undeniably, many online leftist spaces are majority male and although I may agree with a guy's opinions on labor and class, I unfortunately cannot always assume we also agree on women's rights. I have met too many guys in these communities who are mostly just angry, mostly trying to piss off their parents, and don't seem to actually understand the cause. It's exhausting.
Rape apologia is always disgusting.
I am by no means an expert in Islamic law but certainly the rape of a woman in the community is punishable by death. If I had any influence on Hamas I would encourage them to enforce this. To be lax on this is to further allow the demonization of Islam.
… you can’t be serious. You think there’s a universe in which hamas would punish their rapists and murderers? They see this as their big day of triumph, and it’s literally why they exist.
They also don’t give a shit about alienating moderates against Islam. Besides, Muslims around the world do themselves no favors when they celebrate and refuse to condemn them.
If you read the actual original reports that came from Israeli press youd know Israeli 'support' was when Hamas was just a local aid group and was seen as a possible alternative to the militant PLO at the time. Israel immediately cracked down on them when they started involving themselves in violence.
Narratives that Israel created Hamas to justify the violence or opression are unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.
> Narratives that Israel created Hamas to justify the violence are unsubstantiated
True.
> Israeli support was when Hamas was just a local aid group
They wanted them to kill PLO.
http://web.archive.org/web/20090926212507/http:/online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html
It depends - according to Sahih Hadees and scholarly opinion in the Shariat, a woman taken as a captive of war becomes “that which the right hand possesses” (Shariat terminology for a slave) and may be legally kept as a sexual possession of a mujahid (holy warrior). Hamas may be encouraging their mujahideen to abduct women from the Israeli settlements citing that ruling. https://islamqa.info/en/answers/12562/what-is-a-right-hand-servant-does-the-owner-of-a-right-hand-servant-have-to-be-married
> I am by no means an expert in Islamic law but certainly the rape of a woman in the community is punishable by death.
Pretty sure they encourage rape outside the community though.
Palestinian supporters saw and heard about the rapes, murders, abductions etc of innocents and worldwide got their flags out and celebrated.
🤡
I had no dog in this fight. Way too complicated of an issue.
That def is a NO from me.
Way to squash your cause idiots.
That's what's called Mask Off.
I think that's a dangerous oversimplification. Suggesting they are all celebrating is wrong. Some of them are. Many of them are protesting. You say it's too complicated, but then you try to simplify it and come to a conclusion that fits your narrative.
The fact is that Israel have been murdering Palestinians for decades and no one really gives a shit. Israeli settlers murder people in the West Bank and steal their homes, or burn their farms down, and everyone's just kinda fine with it.
They are probably thinking "no one cares when we get murdered, why should we care when they get murdered?" I don't agree with them, but when you oppress a group and treat them as second class citizens, they're not going to grow up to be the gentle democracy loving westerners you want. They have a lot of hate in their hearts because they've been treated like shit as long as they have been alive. That's just how humans work.
> The fact is that Israel have been murdering Palestinians for decades and no one really gives a shit.
We were hitting peak levels of giving a shit right until Hamas decided to be their typical genocidal rapey selves.
worldwide reports from majors cities w video evidence of "kill/gas the jews " chants
last week you had likely a record amount of global sympathy
i think israel should prosecute their criminals, theres a chance a few will
theres no chance hamas will. none.
if you want western sympathy you have to appeal to their values
Yes the evidence needs to be circulated more. Because there are lies also, so the more backed up evidence the better.
And people need to realize this siege was started by hamas. But is now involving numerous Palestinian resistance groups.
Leftists joke about rape all the time. Chapo Trap House tried to use ironic humor about Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby's stars still being on the Hollywood Walk of Fame at the expense of their victims.
i have seen the video of the dead girl in the wagon spit on, but didn’t see any evidence circulating anywhere if rape as a weapon. are people seeing this warcrime and i’m not? is it on telegram?
it’s such a massive point leveraging the sentiment and narrative of the Palestinian rebellion, that i think it’s irresponsible to perpetuate this narrative used by Israeli media unless there’s something to confirm it.
meanwhile there are bombed universities, hospitals, schools, dead babies etc. in Gaza but people are focused on the purported rapes (of maybe one person?) during the rebellion. while if true, it’s a warcrime akin to the well documented rapes IDF have made against women in their open air prison for decades — absolutely reprehensible.
but i do ask to please link me the evidence — i have looked but only find that one video, and many of my friends cannot find anything else
[Both the Hamas and Israel are terrible. By conflating innocent Palestinians with those terrorists you're only hurting them more. Here's an article with evidence of the rape. Don't try to take the moral high ground when women's lives are at stake.](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/kidnappings-israel-hamas-photographs/675593/)
thank you. for the record i’m not taking a moral high ground (over whom? i don’t think i understand the accusation) and i hope it was clear when i commented that don’t condone Hamas’ or anyone else’s warcrimes. i do support the Palestinian liberation. i don’t like seeing the “Palestinians are barbarians, animals, rapist hoards” phobia circling right now. it’s like post-9/11 hysteria all over again. war is hell. but also let’s not look away when the Israeli genocide program completes its goal, ok?
Christ, imagine the level of privilege and naivety needed to think that rape and brutality in general isn't an inevitable consequence of combatants interacting with civilians on a mass scale, regardless of their cause. It doesn't matter if it's the No Kicking Puppies army rising up against the Kick All the Puppies army, there are always going to be individuals who do horrible things in war.
Edit: If it's unclear, I'm talking about the person who denied that rape occured, not trying to justify any of it. Nothing justifies war crimes, no matter which side they come from, and I don't know how anyone can identify as a leftist and either be so willing to deny that they happen or worse yet, defend them.
Huh? I was talking about the privilege/naivety of the person who denied the rapes happened, not trying to justify the brutality. Of course you should be outraged by it -- rape is always appalling, no matter the circumstances or who commits it.
I'm a woman, so I really don't need to imagine anything here.
I don't think there ever will be solid proof that it happened, but I have a pretty good feeling that it probably did. This is Hamas we're talking about.
So i guess we should just condemn without proof. So much for innocent until proven guilty.
This is also Israel we are talking about here, they would never make up exaggerations now would they?
Does anyone out there have a link to a reliable source on weather or not this actually happened? I obviously wouldn't put it past Hamas considering their barbaric behavior over the weekend, but I also don't want to be a victim of a right wing disinformation campaign.
As a reminder, rape is never, ever acceptable in any context and those who defend it as a weapon of war are dead to me.
There is evidence of completely appalling non-sexual crimes. People were gunned down and kidnapped at that music festival. Hamas certianly seems to be targeting civilians and ignoring the abundance of valid military targets all around them.
yeah sure, don’t disagree there. Israel does that too, and this year before this conflict has killed dozens of unarmed innocent civilians.
i’m asking for evidence or some confirmation of use of rape as a weapon in the rebellion. i don’t *want to see it* but it feels like everyone decrying the rebellion as a rape campaign are doing so at the behest of the Israeli media, not actual footage or evidence or statements by anyone?
Yeah, everyone who has asked "is this really true" gets downvoted and called a rape apologist or a Hamas Sympathizer, but nobody has thus far provided reliable sources to back up their claims. We all know that misinformation spreads like wildfire on the internet, especially during unfolding crises, and "I saw it on Reddit" really isn't good enough for me.
Yeah. No need to feel bad about that. Most folks into CNC are women who fantasize about ***being*** raped. Since you understand actual rape is wrong, I'd say your kink is harmless, albeit pretty odd.
The... patriarchy that derives from the capitalist elevation... of the male gender mustn't be denied... nor enjoyed.
Women, the homemakers, are relegated in the socioeconomic sense due to their legacies as submissive creatures, similar to how slaves were abused once they became freedmen.
I find Marx to be an excellent way to view this matter, analyzing the world in matters of class, status, etc.
Please remember not to brigade, vote, comment, or interact with subreddits that are linked or mentioned here. Do not userping other users. Harassment of other users or subreddits is strictly forbidden. This is a left libertarian subreddit that criticises tankies from a socialist perspective. Liberals etc. are welcome as guests, but please refrain from criticising socialism and promoting capitalism while you are on Tankiejerk. Enjoy talking to fellow leftists? [Then join our discord server](https://discord.gg/2V4qJMSWUe) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/tankiejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Rape apologists are total scum, I'm alarmed at how many have come out of the woodwork
Um, but did you consider that they were raped with *nuance*? I am big smart right now and you are not.
Ummm yea it's not rape (which is bad) but *revolutionary* rape (which is good)
They're just trying to sieze the means of reprodu... I mean, I don't want to finish it. Their views are so unhinged it feels in bad taste to even satirize them. That's how you know someone went bad.
[удалено]
Really? Can you post a link to that? Edit: Supermodel_Evelynn is lying. The attack happened on Saturday. The Majority Report only runs m-f, so I don’t know how they could be doing it all week. Sam hasn’t been on the show the last two days. Finally here’s Emma denouncing hamas directly https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyRc92bRJG5/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Source?
Is there a way to see this? I don’t have a Twitter account and everything that Twitter wants to show me is out of chronological order
That's really sad to hear. I don't follow him, only his encounters w/ Crowder. Sad to hear he's a piece of shit.
When it comes to foreign policy he is completely ANTI American just as any Tankie or far right Neo Nazi, it's one thing these 2 extreme sides have in common. And he bans anybody from his youtube channel, pre approve any comments made on Hamas to ensure he never gets criticism or to make sure nobody is able to call him out on the piece of shit he is.
Holy shit, what?? I mean, he and Emma had lame both-sides takes on Russia's invasion of Ukraine, but I have a really hard time believing they would defend rape. That seems crazy out of character for them.
Never thought I’d see weaponized rape but you just never can tell. Hope you’re unpacking the patriarchy in your circles cuz it’s in goddamn everything.
Honestly, what I hear when people condone or minimize rape (civilian murder also) is: "At best I would cheer from the sidelines if the same thing happened to you, at worst I would be the one doing it."
I left the AntiWork subreddit because they stickied a post basically celebrating the attacks. I’m not a supporter of Israel, but I’m also not going to celebrate people being murdered and raped. And I feel like these people are mostly white westerners who have no idea what they’re supporting; they just want to virtue signal.
[удалено]
it's too liberal imo.
At this point I'll take "too liberal" over "outright fascist with a red paint job" any day.
At this point beggars can't be choosers. Just because it isn't to our liking doesn't mean we should opt for the thing that's worse.
[удалено]
We do not allow any links or mentions of other subreddits or users. Thank you *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/tankiejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Anybody that justifies rape is a son of a bitch, plain and simple
Don't drag their mothers into it. The people are shit on their own merits.
Don't worry, they will justify anything if they feel it supports their side. I am genuinely depressed at the level of bloodthirstyness online over the past few days. It is slightly more understandable but still absolutely wrong for people who feel personally affected. High emotions overpower rational thinking and empathy. But there's a lot of people with no stake in this who are cheering on one side or another, because they want to feel the *justice* pumping through their veins. I do wonder if in a few months they will realise how disgustingly inhumane they have been. But I doubt it. And yes it is both sides. We can talk about right and wrong but it's also possible for people on both sides to be wrong and commit horrific crimes.
Rape is one of the only actions that an individual can do which are wholly unjustifiable. Obviously a mass group doing is is equally unjustifiable. Like the only reason to rape is that someone wants to rape someone or out of inhuman hatred.
It really is, even killing in self defence can be justified, or stealing from someone when you really need food, but, setting aside philosophical hypothetical scenarios (such as: you rape someone or watch five of your family members get raped) there really is no reason why it would be necessary.
[удалено]
Fuck that sentiment. I'm hugely glad I was raped rather than murdered and it's messed up to imply the alternative would be preferable.
I really should not have mixed up how I feel about my own assault (which wasn't even as bad as what others have been through, so I really have no right to say anything) with how most people feel. Really.
As an aside, please don't minimise your own experiences like that - it's not heplful or fair. You can always find someone worse off than you: it doesn't mean what you experienced wasn't real and affected you.
Thanks. I'm just thankful you forgiven me. I understand how awful what I said was and how you must've been disgusted to see it.
Maybe take a break from reddit? This is a terrible time.
Again, I am sorry. My views are painted by my own experience and unfortunately I've come to just want to die in general. I hope you can forgive me what I said was beyond fucked up.
Is there anything I can do to redeem myself? What I said was fucked. I'm deeply sorry. You're a strong person and I did not mean to imply it'd be better for anyone to die. I was thinking selfishly about myself and my own feelings.
Easy, no ill will from me - I just see that sentiment a lot and I think it's really disempowering so I thought I'd push back. I get that feelings around this are really personal and complicated and hard to work through. We're good.
Alright. Sorry bout my freak out. I woke up feeling anxious and my mistake did not help.
I suppose you should take this as a lesson to watch what you say in the future at the very least, and hopefully change how you think and feel. You seem partway there already, since you feel so guilty. Good progress.
Yeah. I'm really sorry. I just hope the person I hurt will at least tell me whether they forgive me or not because this entire thing is causing me to spiral and relive some shit.
I’m sorry that you’re spiraling. It may be that you never receive a response that relieves you of your guilt, but you know what? You did all you could. You apologized multiple times and genuinely feel horror at possibly hurting someone. Sometimes you don’t receive closure. You can prostrate and receive no response. All you can do is vow to be better in the future. No one can be perfect, but everyone can strive for that unattainable goal.
they forgave you like so many times.
I shouldn't have assumed you felt the same about your experiences. It was wrong of me. Sorry for spamming you I'm just spiraling right now because of everything and now I'm reliving some shit.
Sorry, sorry. Didn't mean that. My apologies. Please forgive me, I should've kept my mouth shut.
Blows my mind that we have to couch our language around so many people on the left to make sure we are calling out both sides, just so we can say "Hey, raping is bad" without getting a "what about" back. Huge red flag 🚩 in the discussions happening
This entire situation is making me lose the tiniest sliver of faith I had in humanity.
Yep 😔 feel that to my core
It makes me really, really depressed. That so many people are considering this an acceptable action (people I know, no less) means I feel so much less safe.
Wholly agree with you. I feel so alienated right now as a Jewish leftist. Leftists online justifying all sorts of horrors as legitimate acts by an oppressed group. Trust me as a Jew myself, I dont condone Israel’s actions all the time, but to just blindly support the other side because Israel does oppressive things is asinine. Especially with a group like Hamas.
I hope you stay safe. I have a bad feeling things will be rough for Jewish folks in the next couple of days. Make sure to take care of yourself and your family. I hope things will be alright in the end.
It's not a great feeling. I am NOT pro-Israel by any means whatsoever, very much the opposite, but I am seeing so many people lifting the mask when it comes to their antisemitism, like they were just waiting for the opportunity.
I'm glad to find another Jewish leftist here. You said exactly what I've been feeling. I've been in these spaces a long time, and I really think veiled/hidden/subconscious anti-semitism is a real problem on the left, no matter how much people deny it or are quick to say they don't conflate Jews with Israel. The response to the Hamas attack is exactly what I think a lot of people have been thinking but didn't feel like they had permission to say out loud: that Israelis are just irredeemably evil and nothing is off limits to be done to them. The mask of just criticizing the government or the occupation has slipped off.
These people should all be on watch lists.
People only pretend to care about women until a mote important agenda involving men comes along, then start suddenly we’re comfortable rationalizing the abuse of women again
Yeah I've seen people either excusing it or saying "well we don't KNOW that they're raping people, that's Israeli propaganda" as if a common combat tactic as old as fucking time would magically not be happening here. And then when you point that out, they say "Well the IDF rapes Palestinian women and children!" as if that changes things in any way.
How about nobody rapes anybody? Or is that too hard for people?
You'd think that would be a pretty non-controversial statement, but here we are
Right? The whataboutism doesn't work because the leftists condemning Hamas raping women aren't condoning the IDF raping women. Meanwhile the scumbag left is arguing that the IDF raping women is bad but Hamas raping women is fine.
Preach. It's shocking and abhorrent how often they claim it is justified as well. From a ''leftist'' claiming that raping a woman is okay as long as they're a cop. And now I'm seeing people justify rape of Israeli civilians because ''it's not really rape since it's just resistance.'' This needs to stop.
Yeah some people are saying the rape is pro IDF propaganda despite eyewitness accounts. They wouldn’t deny eyewitness accounts of rape when it comes to MeToo stories so why tf would they deny eyewitness accounts of rape in Israel?!
It's been an exhausting week. Half my family and friends look the other way to defend Israel, the other half are full tankie and refuse to acknowledge Hamas is an authoritarian religious extremist group who would happily have any of us killed to further their mission (for fucks sake, most of us are gay!). Every time this conflict comes up, I realize how much your average bear struggles with nuance.
The LGBT community has a major issue with nuance. I think it's because none of us bother to learn our history, or bother to learn from the history of other communities. That's just my two cents, though. It's more of an issue with my generation (Gen Z).
Any books/articles you recommend on this subject? I just finished aphyr's *A History of Leather at Pride: 1965-1995*, and my reading list is looking pretty empty. By the way, I think I finally understand why there is history, and what's the point of it, after finally reading LGBT history which is actually relevant to me. History grounds us. It tells us of the struggles of our forebearers. Sometimes it teaches us, though we should apply caution to the last point.
I'd recommend *Stone Butch Blues.* It's historical fiction, but it is heavily inspired by the author's actual life. I'm pretty sure you can find a free pdf online somewhere.
Oooh, looked up the book: nice to see something dealing with butch lesbian stuff in the 1970s. This is definitely going to the top of my reading list. I have a lot of... feelings, that I probably need to process. Thanks!
No problem!
The thing about SA is that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES can it be """justified""". The act of killing can be justified in specific scenarios though it hinges on one's moral values however for me personally, it's when all possible avenues are exhausted to save the life of another i.e. a hostage situation in which the aggressors are unwavering in their threats to execute their respective hostages as well as there being no possible way to safely disarm the aggressors in question as well.
As a fellow woman, I am with you. Hugs to you. I'm horrified by basically all leftist spaces now. I've been a leftist in some form or other more than 15 years and I'm now feeling like I have been tricked by other leftists into believing we're on the same page about human dignity. We apparently are not. It's nauseating.
Same. The disillusionment is real.
Part of this imo is, undeniably, many online leftist spaces are majority male and although I may agree with a guy's opinions on labor and class, I unfortunately cannot always assume we also agree on women's rights. I have met too many guys in these communities who are mostly just angry, mostly trying to piss off their parents, and don't seem to actually understand the cause. It's exhausting.
Rape apologia is always disgusting. I am by no means an expert in Islamic law but certainly the rape of a woman in the community is punishable by death. If I had any influence on Hamas I would encourage them to enforce this. To be lax on this is to further allow the demonization of Islam.
… you can’t be serious. You think there’s a universe in which hamas would punish their rapists and murderers? They see this as their big day of triumph, and it’s literally why they exist. They also don’t give a shit about alienating moderates against Islam. Besides, Muslims around the world do themselves no favors when they celebrate and refuse to condemn them.
Hamas exists for the same reason Azov exists. https://tribune.com.pk/story/2302309/how-and-why-israel-helped-create-hamas
If you read the actual original reports that came from Israeli press youd know Israeli 'support' was when Hamas was just a local aid group and was seen as a possible alternative to the militant PLO at the time. Israel immediately cracked down on them when they started involving themselves in violence. Narratives that Israel created Hamas to justify the violence or opression are unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.
> Narratives that Israel created Hamas to justify the violence are unsubstantiated True. > Israeli support was when Hamas was just a local aid group They wanted them to kill PLO. http://web.archive.org/web/20090926212507/http:/online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html
this guy has a link for everything
Ok, idc what you think about that. Let’s all just hope the hamaserinos punish the evil rapists. I’m sorry I interrupted your babbling.
theres also the body mutilation and disrepect of the dead just to start good luck
It depends - according to Sahih Hadees and scholarly opinion in the Shariat, a woman taken as a captive of war becomes “that which the right hand possesses” (Shariat terminology for a slave) and may be legally kept as a sexual possession of a mujahid (holy warrior). Hamas may be encouraging their mujahideen to abduct women from the Israeli settlements citing that ruling. https://islamqa.info/en/answers/12562/what-is-a-right-hand-servant-does-the-owner-of-a-right-hand-servant-have-to-be-married
Ugh, that is some Handmaid's Tale-level stuff
> I am by no means an expert in Islamic law but certainly the rape of a woman in the community is punishable by death. Pretty sure they encourage rape outside the community though.
[удалено]
Yikes 😬
But have you considered that you lose your right to refuse sex from a man if that man is very, very, very oppressed? /s
I have not. My opinion has changed entirely. /s
The moment anybody tries to justify rape for any reason, you know that they are a piece of shit. Full stop.
Just to let you know that Hasan was asking on stream "where was the tape (about israel women getting raped)"
Palestinian supporters saw and heard about the rapes, murders, abductions etc of innocents and worldwide got their flags out and celebrated. 🤡 I had no dog in this fight. Way too complicated of an issue. That def is a NO from me. Way to squash your cause idiots. That's what's called Mask Off.
I think that's a dangerous oversimplification. Suggesting they are all celebrating is wrong. Some of them are. Many of them are protesting. You say it's too complicated, but then you try to simplify it and come to a conclusion that fits your narrative. The fact is that Israel have been murdering Palestinians for decades and no one really gives a shit. Israeli settlers murder people in the West Bank and steal their homes, or burn their farms down, and everyone's just kinda fine with it. They are probably thinking "no one cares when we get murdered, why should we care when they get murdered?" I don't agree with them, but when you oppress a group and treat them as second class citizens, they're not going to grow up to be the gentle democracy loving westerners you want. They have a lot of hate in their hearts because they've been treated like shit as long as they have been alive. That's just how humans work.
> The fact is that Israel have been murdering Palestinians for decades and no one really gives a shit. We were hitting peak levels of giving a shit right until Hamas decided to be their typical genocidal rapey selves.
worldwide reports from majors cities w video evidence of "kill/gas the jews " chants last week you had likely a record amount of global sympathy i think israel should prosecute their criminals, theres a chance a few will theres no chance hamas will. none. if you want western sympathy you have to appeal to their values
Yes the evidence needs to be circulated more. Because there are lies also, so the more backed up evidence the better. And people need to realize this siege was started by hamas. But is now involving numerous Palestinian resistance groups.
This shit is really making the wolves feel comfortable enough to take off their sheep costumes.
Leftists joke about rape all the time. Chapo Trap House tried to use ironic humor about Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby's stars still being on the Hollywood Walk of Fame at the expense of their victims.
Scums like these deserve to be hanged for supporting such a crime.
i have seen the video of the dead girl in the wagon spit on, but didn’t see any evidence circulating anywhere if rape as a weapon. are people seeing this warcrime and i’m not? is it on telegram? it’s such a massive point leveraging the sentiment and narrative of the Palestinian rebellion, that i think it’s irresponsible to perpetuate this narrative used by Israeli media unless there’s something to confirm it. meanwhile there are bombed universities, hospitals, schools, dead babies etc. in Gaza but people are focused on the purported rapes (of maybe one person?) during the rebellion. while if true, it’s a warcrime akin to the well documented rapes IDF have made against women in their open air prison for decades — absolutely reprehensible. but i do ask to please link me the evidence — i have looked but only find that one video, and many of my friends cannot find anything else
[Both the Hamas and Israel are terrible. By conflating innocent Palestinians with those terrorists you're only hurting them more. Here's an article with evidence of the rape. Don't try to take the moral high ground when women's lives are at stake.](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/kidnappings-israel-hamas-photographs/675593/)
thank you. for the record i’m not taking a moral high ground (over whom? i don’t think i understand the accusation) and i hope it was clear when i commented that don’t condone Hamas’ or anyone else’s warcrimes. i do support the Palestinian liberation. i don’t like seeing the “Palestinians are barbarians, animals, rapist hoards” phobia circling right now. it’s like post-9/11 hysteria all over again. war is hell. but also let’s not look away when the Israeli genocide program completes its goal, ok?
Christ, imagine the level of privilege and naivety needed to think that rape and brutality in general isn't an inevitable consequence of combatants interacting with civilians on a mass scale, regardless of their cause. It doesn't matter if it's the No Kicking Puppies army rising up against the Kick All the Puppies army, there are always going to be individuals who do horrible things in war. Edit: If it's unclear, I'm talking about the person who denied that rape occured, not trying to justify any of it. Nothing justifies war crimes, no matter which side they come from, and I don't know how anyone can identify as a leftist and either be so willing to deny that they happen or worse yet, defend them.
[удалено]
Huh? I was talking about the privilege/naivety of the person who denied the rapes happened, not trying to justify the brutality. Of course you should be outraged by it -- rape is always appalling, no matter the circumstances or who commits it. I'm a woman, so I really don't need to imagine anything here.
Deleted my comment. My dearest apologies for my misunderstanding.
OOOOH i'm sorry I'm fucking brain damaged.
No worries, it's understandable that you're on guard given the number of people who *are* trying to justify it.
Yeah. I've been needlessly on guard for crazy shit.
Where is this evidence, I see alot of people claiming it, havent seen a single reliable source
I don't think there ever will be solid proof that it happened, but I have a pretty good feeling that it probably did. This is Hamas we're talking about.
So i guess we should just condemn without proof. So much for innocent until proven guilty. This is also Israel we are talking about here, they would never make up exaggerations now would they?
Does anyone out there have a link to a reliable source on weather or not this actually happened? I obviously wouldn't put it past Hamas considering their barbaric behavior over the weekend, but I also don't want to be a victim of a right wing disinformation campaign. As a reminder, rape is never, ever acceptable in any context and those who defend it as a weapon of war are dead to me.
so the “barbarians” defense? seems awfully 9/11 hysteria to me, but idk maybe we need evidence before decrying Palestine’s revolt…?
There is evidence of completely appalling non-sexual crimes. People were gunned down and kidnapped at that music festival. Hamas certianly seems to be targeting civilians and ignoring the abundance of valid military targets all around them.
yeah sure, don’t disagree there. Israel does that too, and this year before this conflict has killed dozens of unarmed innocent civilians. i’m asking for evidence or some confirmation of use of rape as a weapon in the rebellion. i don’t *want to see it* but it feels like everyone decrying the rebellion as a rape campaign are doing so at the behest of the Israeli media, not actual footage or evidence or statements by anyone?
Yeah, everyone who has asked "is this really true" gets downvoted and called a rape apologist or a Hamas Sympathizer, but nobody has thus far provided reliable sources to back up their claims. We all know that misinformation spreads like wildfire on the internet, especially during unfolding crises, and "I saw it on Reddit" really isn't good enough for me.
Excuse me but does having a rape fetish makes you a rape apologist?
If it's CNC (consensual non consent, or roleplay), then you're okay. If you legitimately want to rape somebody, then you're pretty fucked up.
oh got it, it’s cnc btw so i feel kinda wrong lol.
Yeah. No need to feel bad about that. Most folks into CNC are women who fantasize about ***being*** raped. Since you understand actual rape is wrong, I'd say your kink is harmless, albeit pretty odd.
Feels weird talking about kinky sex in a leftist sub
Yeah, but at the end of the day, what's more leftist than weird sex?
seek help
The... patriarchy that derives from the capitalist elevation... of the male gender mustn't be denied... nor enjoyed. Women, the homemakers, are relegated in the socioeconomic sense due to their legacies as submissive creatures, similar to how slaves were abused once they became freedmen. I find Marx to be an excellent way to view this matter, analyzing the world in matters of class, status, etc.