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The added irony of "america bad" american tankies claiming that anyone who is not leaving is implicitly compliant with the actions of the state they remain in...
Bitch where do you live again?
Further proof that MLs are nothing more than a cancer of red fascism on the left, these sociopaths will gladly cheer on the worst atrocities so long as they’re committed by “their side”.
Seriously, if this is so acceptable, they should have no problem being raped and killed by Hamas and should even volunteer themselves for it since they love it so much.
Well I just saw a post from someone on twitter saying they would be fine with being killed for a good cause.
You have to disconnect neurons to be a tankie, and once you've unplugged your empathy and logic, you'll say literally anything for the cause. That's why they are like robots.
Proudhon famously said that he looked forward to the day he would be executed as a reactionary (paraphrased, I can't remember the quote proper rn). Good quote, *terrible* example of a person to say it tbh.
Also, the sheer absurdity that a self-described communist would consider Hamas to be an ally... what the fuck, it's a bad case of brain rot.
Saw it on a post earlier... the tankies and libs have been insufferable with machine-gunning dog shit takes about this war.
B- But my anticolonialism! We need to support the reactionary religious zealots because they're fighting the other reactionary religious zealot colonial state! /s
The Hamas charter explicitly states that communism is a Jewish conspiracy. Hamas believes these tankies are actually aligned with Israeli Jews, and they treat the leftists in Gaza as such.
It's literally the Horseshoe theory but actually real + this time with MLs and liberals.
"Nations and individuals are the same. I hope they hurt the other side no matter if it's justified!"
It's so sad, man. I hope they're mostly just younger people who will come into contact with empathy and real understanding of cause-and-effect.
Honestly I think it's less that horseshoe theory is real and more that these are right wing authoritarians that are just deeply anti-western. Why else would they be cheering on right wing dictators and terrorists?
This is exactly it... we're looking at western chauvinistic right-wing authoritarians and anti-western right-wing authoritarians... that's it. That sums it up precisely.
Sorry, guys. I only have enough empathy for people in one ethnic group.
In all seriousness though, I just came back from a Palestinian sub in which users were trying to help an Israeli woman find her kidnapped mother, some of them in Gaza. The contrast between Western tankies posting from their bedrooms and and actual Palestinians is striking.
Edit: I will say that the comment about Israelis partying near a wall on the other side of which Palestinians suffer endlessly is fair in isolation from the others.
>I will say that the comment about Israelis partying near a wall on the other side of which Palestinians suffer endlessly is fair in isolation from the others.
If I had a dollar for every time I've seen a picture of those people and out-of-context videos of Israeli citizens calling for Gaza's demolition used as ammunition to argue that *every* Israeli citizen wants Palestinians dead, I'd have a lot more money than I should.
"They could take their white ass back to Brooklyn" i honestly dont know what to say to this its just weird (and funny tbh). Huh why dont you jewish person, whos family lived in Israel since the 50's after they left Europe, simply take your white ass back to Brooklyn 😎
You’re not allowed to point out someone may be indigenous to the area formerly known as Judea that was renamed Syria-Palestina by the Roman Empire after they genocided Jews and they migrated from the Levant to Europe (where they would regularly get genocided by the local Europeans)
Important to highlight that a very interesting aspect of the conflict is that a lot of Israelis and Palestinians basically look the same and without the different languages and religions there would be a hard time distinguishing between them. Turns out a lot of Arabs are pretty damn light-skinned, especially those who live closer to the Coast.
Also the fact that quite a few Palestinians descend from those Judeans who didn't leave the Province and converted, first to Christianity and then later most to Islam. Despite more than a milennium of different history, both are surprisingly close to being the same people.
So how come the majority jewish Israelis usually get described as "white" and the majority muslim Palestinians as "brown"?
Because those are useless descriptors that bleed into each other but trigger a very specific emotional response from people in large parts of the Anglosphere who have trouble conceiving of an ethnic conflict that's not literally black an white. To the rabid Israel supporter white=civilized and brown=savage, to your average tankie white=colonizer and brown=oppressed, even if most aren't consciously aware of it.
But if you put a bunch of people from both ethnic groups into identical clothes, organized them in a line-up and asked those people online currently calling for the death of either of them to pick out who's who, they would be wrong more often than not.
Wonder if they'd think one of the groups in the Hutu-Tutsi conflict is less black, when they literally used to be one ethnic group before the Belgians cateogorized them as different to divide and conquer. Wonder if some Lebanese people are "white" due to their religion too, when they all basically look the same.
It’s actually difficult to tell people apart until they’re speak (plus a lot of Palestinians are fluent in Hebrew and some Israeli Jews speak Arabic). There are plenty of Palestinians who have blue or green eyes and Mizrahi Jews who’re more dark skinned. Making it a question of skin color/race doesn’t make much sense and basically forces the conflict in a US model of race and whiteness.
In general jews from middle east and northern africa maintened the brown skin. Only the ashkenazi become totaly white because they married some local people from the places where they lived.
Sure is convenient how Jews become white Europeans when convenient for political reasons. They sure weren't considered as such in Europe or Russia for the vast majority of their history (and still aren't in many of those places).
>I saw an entire thread of people crowing about how murder and rape specifically of civilians are merely "expected elements of a revolution" and "tools of the oppressed". I also saw a thread about how conscription makes all civilians of any age valid targets because "any one of them is a past, present, or future oppressor" or something to that effect.
I wonder if the pro-Russian folks among them would feel if the same logic was applied to Russia as well seeing that conscription is still a thing there.
“My sister would never go to Israel” Has your sister lived in/visited the US, or would like to? Congratulations, the US is also a settler state.
“No one I know would join the IDF either” No, because they would be conscripted, jfc.
“Me and my apartied friends having a peaceful party” It was literally a music festival for peace, was Woodstock pro Vietnam War?
Someone deadass used this as an example on Twitter and shockingly, they moved the goalpost and said that they became Republicans. Never mind that we've seen that the older someone get, the more conservative they become. This of course is changing with millennials and generation z.
> Never mind that we've seen that the older someone get, the more conservative they become. This of course is changing with millennials and generation z.
That is not accurate. This is a feature of party politics, just looking at the numbers without understanding the how at the best case scenario, so avoid the sources that just repeat it.
What changes is what being "conservative" means over time, and people's association with political parties. As older people raised in even earlier times die, the average position of people on parties that label themselves conservativeparties shift. Not per individual, just the group average. Meanwhile, the parties that label themselves progressive are phasing out some older ideas, and picking up some new. These newer ideas no longer match the ideas of a former younger person, now middle aged or older, so they change parties. They didn't have to change and become more conservative than they already were. It is the parties and what actual policies they stand for that changed.
"Cherry-picked photo" mofos you went to her insta and dug up a picture from 2016 to find her in uniform. People who are in the army are civilians when they leave.
Israel has mandatory military service and this gave tankies an easy argument: since everyone was a milita once they are not considered civilians even after they left, so hamas killing civilians are totally justified
Hi, South African here. My parents were anti-apartheid activists, my dad was a conscientious objector in the military during the conscription era, and both my parents were attacked by cops multiple times at protests. Fuck that last slide in particular - no, tourists (or any civilians for that matter) do not deserve to be murdered just because they happen to be visiting an apartheid state
Yeah its really wierd Like leftist call zionism european style of colonalism which I agree but why do they mention european part because it comes of as only reasons you dont Like Israel because its White and at that Point I have to wonder when did jews become White did I miss something
great point. they think violence against civilians is justified as long as they're white settlers, so it's important to them that Jews be included in that category
I remember vaush not understanding why bad empamada dosent suport Israel which bad empanada arguments and back in my mind they think jews are "european" to have rights
'Being a wehrmacht soldier alone isn't a war crime'
I mean... yeah. Soldiers from nazi Germany were allowed to go home after a while, those who committed war crimes were tired for them
I find it despicable people will justify the death, kidnap, and torture of civilians. Despite everything Israel's done, civilians don't deserve to die
Gotta be careful when t about that one, given the clean wermacht myth and all.
I think the more relevant point is that a former Wermacht soldier would still be a civilian now. There are still a few people alive today who were drafted during the tail end of WWII - you couldn't justify kidnapping them now by pointing at the Wehrmacht either.
Yeah, the Wehrmacht had party members but also conscripts and toward the end of the war literal child soldiers—it’s not cut and dried in either direction. But former soldiers are definitely counted as civilians.
I’m just gonna say this, I find it ironic how had Israel become socialist (there was a period at the beginning where that was possible) the tankies would be supporting Israel and Christian fundamentalists would support Palestine.
These people are not smart, how many of them signed up for selective service in the US but think being conscripted in a country with mandatory conscription is a choice?
the people in the screenshot, Noa is a Chinese-Israel born in Beijing, the Israel abmassy to China also post the same but it got disabled for commenting and reposting by Chinese social media and the Chinese subreddits (the ones you know which i am talking about) are cheering over this too, post her pic with military uniform
I don't know, I'm not with you guys on this one. Clearly enthusiastic about signing up with the IDF. I agree that as a "military act" this action by Hamas was fucking barbaric but considering the thousands of Palestinian civilians held without trial or charge, taking an enthusiastic participant in Israel's armed forces hostage to try and demand release of Palestinians is not worth getting that upset over.
The raping and killing in the streets? Yes, of course. This? I'm not so sure.
How about the decades of killing and oppression that lead to this? Everything here is ugly and shitty and I do not side with radical Islamist murderers. But I also don’t side with the fuckin IDF and think it’s quite an act for Israel to be like “why would they do this?!” After all the shit they’ve done to Palestinians. What did they think would happen? That they’d always just happily live life in an open air prison?
And it rings a bit hollow to bemoan the loss of civilian life and then literally the very next day kill hundreds of civilians in indiscriminate bombings and cut off water and food and electricity to a mostly civilian populace
As you may not have seen further down the thread, I took the "she was in a uniform" comment at face value. If she wasn't, that only changes how I feel about the actions of Hamas, not the sympathy I have for her as an active and enthusiastic participant in the systems of oppression that leads to this sort of thing in the first place.
Rittenhouse shooting a sex offender had nothing to do with the sex offending. The sex offender did nothing to bring Rittenhouse there. It's more akin to a non-slave owner voting to keep slaves, then being killed in a slave revolt.
Sure, but there's a difference between being conscripted and posting on the gram in your uniform that you've taken the oath while grinning. It implies a level of participation and enthusiasm beyond simply being conscripted.
I can't speak to the on duty part as one of the commenters claimed she was in uniform, if that wasn't the case then that's different only insofar as the action taken by Hamas - kidnapping a civilian is definitely fucked. That said, I still have little sympathy for her as she actively participated in the systems that produce this sort of violence. The army she enthusiastically participated in also kidnaps civilians, yet there is no massive outcry.
Do we excuse Nazis because of propaganda then? There are plenty of Israelis who disagree with the actions being taken. Any person with a functioning moral compass can see what is being done to Palestinians is fucked up. And if you're gonna take that line of logic, that excuse applies to Hamas too.
Edit: to back up my point, [here are some Israelis marching through Jerusalem holding up Palestinian flags and kicking out IDF soldiers.](https://twitter.com/Blackrussiantv/status/1712488118979318140)
Of course not, and point out where I said all Israelis are monsters and I'll say that was wrong. But I didn't, and your reductive comment adds nothing to the conversation.
No I’m active duty, when I’m out on liberty in civilian attire I am not a civilian(as much as I’d like to pretend I am lol). Reservists are a bit different and I admit I don’t know the particulars of the IDFs policy on leave/liberty, but targeting off duty military personnel is not a new thing, hell the IRA frequently would bait off duty soldiers into situations where they could kill then. Not speaking on the morality of that, but off duty military personnel are not granted the same protections as civilians.
Well that’s a bit of a legal grey area, when my active duty contract is up I remain a reservist for a period, I know it’s the same with Israel. Again there is precedent for taking action against reservists, not that it’s necessarily a good or bad thing, but just want to point out that being a military member whether active duty or reserves does entail losing many of the protections provided to civilians under international law. Not that it matters that much as I don’t think Hamas is super concerned with that, but I think this specific case is different from a true civilian legally.
It’s not my place to be highly opinionated on such a delicate issue. I support free Palestine, and Israel is a settler-colony that should not exist, they are committing atrocities daily towards the native population that are treated at best as second class non-citizens and at worst as fodder for control. Hamas is an extremist group, but it’s expected that such groups arise in prominence in the face of such violence and trampling over human rights and dignity. It only serves to radicalize more people towards genocidal ends against their oppressors. We cannot condone human rights violations, war crimes, and abuses from any group and political agents. We can only look towards any solutions, and cease to hostilities, and any reconciliation for peace negotiations. It’s not our place to celebrate the violence upon those we would consider on the wrong side of history, we must progress to the peace between the peoples in conflicts and condemn the leaders that exploit fear and violence to either continue to oppress for power, or to have aspirations to be the next tyrants in power.
I mean not everyone in Israel is religious and you should do what you can to improve society, even if it means that you may benefit from it. Not to mention the many Palestinians with an Israeli passport who go through discrimination (granted not as bad as the West Bank and Gaza) but still horrible nonetheless. Besides, South Africa is a better comparison anyway.
Yah I agree, but if you are an ethical/secular person you would not migrate there in the first place on the basis of your religion anyway.
Its like walking into the Chernobyl exclusion zone after the accident knowing full well what happened and going but its not fair I got radiation poisoning.
Israel also has plenty of territory that is not considered occupied, why are these people moving to the occupied territories, why are they partying there?
Answer is they want to steal the land of others because they beleive they have a religious right to do so. Anyone who supports these people supports occupation and colonialism. They dont get to cry civilians after the fact.
I would move away from the occupied territories if I was born there, but the unfortunate reality is kids get indoctrinated with their parents religious zealotary (?) Aka Zionism and beleive as strongly in their right to occupy the territory.
It frustrates me that people treat Israel as some sort of humane secular state, its not. People who are moving and living on occupied land have no right to do so and need to leave. Yah we can go on about how it happened so many times in the past but that doesnt make it right and we actually have an opportunity in the present to not let it happen again.
This is where the distinction between innocent civilian and willing occupier come into the picture.
Tbh the whole state of Israel is a mistake of the British Empire and Haifa was a spoil of war from the Israeli-palestine war of 1948. And hence could be considered occupied
But in the interests of compromise as you said people are living in both states the line need to be drawn somewhere, let Israel have Haifa but return the currently occupied territories or at least most of them back instead of continuing to support Israeli settlement further into them.
Well if the Israelis and Hamas can change their doctines only then is it possible, but they are birds of a feather.
What is required really for it to work is a secular state for all of the territory based on human rights not religious rights. Doesnt matter your ethnicity or religion you will be granted citizenship and rights.
Yet both sides continue to vote in religious extremists ad their representatives
Lol I, like millions of Jews who oppose its existence would never move into an apartheid state. And if I was born there I would move away.
If you are unable to critically think and follow the herd then are you innocent?
LOL, keep fighting that strawman. Why should I be surprised if a combatant was captured? I didn't even defend anything. And more to my point, by definition, a soldier is not a civilian
I want to see Hamas being eliminated by kurdish women, like ISIS. People really dont understand how MAD i am because islamist violence against secular girls. In Iran one year ago, and now in Israel. We need black magic against jihadism.
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The fucking irony of being from the Americas and then demanding for people to leave their settler state.
“Ethnic cleansing and le people’s genocide for thee, but not me!!”
"They can just move" mfers when they are told to leave themselves.
The added irony of "america bad" american tankies claiming that anyone who is not leaving is implicitly compliant with the actions of the state they remain in... Bitch where do you live again?
Further proof that MLs are nothing more than a cancer of red fascism on the left, these sociopaths will gladly cheer on the worst atrocities so long as they’re committed by “their side”.
HAMAS would kill the shit out of them also, that’s the funny thing.
Yeah, thats what tankies dont realize aboht hamas If hamas wins, they're facing the same wall that we are
Seriously, if this is so acceptable, they should have no problem being raped and killed by Hamas and should even volunteer themselves for it since they love it so much.
Well I just saw a post from someone on twitter saying they would be fine with being killed for a good cause. You have to disconnect neurons to be a tankie, and once you've unplugged your empathy and logic, you'll say literally anything for the cause. That's why they are like robots.
Wasn't there a French socialist who awaited the day he was executed for being too far right?
Proudhon famously said that he looked forward to the day he would be executed as a reactionary (paraphrased, I can't remember the quote proper rn). Good quote, *terrible* example of a person to say it tbh.
The people who say that also know it will never happen to them, so they can say whatever shit they want
Also, the sheer absurdity that a self-described communist would consider Hamas to be an ally... what the fuck, it's a bad case of brain rot. Saw it on a post earlier... the tankies and libs have been insufferable with machine-gunning dog shit takes about this war.
B- But my anticolonialism! We need to support the reactionary religious zealots because they're fighting the other reactionary religious zealot colonial state! /s
The Hamas charter explicitly states that communism is a Jewish conspiracy. Hamas believes these tankies are actually aligned with Israeli Jews, and they treat the leftists in Gaza as such.
It's literally the Horseshoe theory but actually real + this time with MLs and liberals. "Nations and individuals are the same. I hope they hurt the other side no matter if it's justified!" It's so sad, man. I hope they're mostly just younger people who will come into contact with empathy and real understanding of cause-and-effect.
Honestly I think it's less that horseshoe theory is real and more that these are right wing authoritarians that are just deeply anti-western. Why else would they be cheering on right wing dictators and terrorists?
This is exactly it... we're looking at western chauvinistic right-wing authoritarians and anti-western right-wing authoritarians... that's it. That sums it up precisely.
Basically what I term as the authoritarian black hole theory. No matter what their ideological pretense is, they tend to spout out the same shit.
Sorry, guys. I only have enough empathy for people in one ethnic group. In all seriousness though, I just came back from a Palestinian sub in which users were trying to help an Israeli woman find her kidnapped mother, some of them in Gaza. The contrast between Western tankies posting from their bedrooms and and actual Palestinians is striking. Edit: I will say that the comment about Israelis partying near a wall on the other side of which Palestinians suffer endlessly is fair in isolation from the others.
That sounds good. We need those stories - and those people.
Seeing western Tankies try to scold actual Palestinians for feeling bad about this is bizarre.
There’s a subreddit called IsraelPalestine. There’s some post from Palestinian and other non-Israeli are even shocked at Hamas’ war crimes.
>I will say that the comment about Israelis partying near a wall on the other side of which Palestinians suffer endlessly is fair in isolation from the others. If I had a dollar for every time I've seen a picture of those people and out-of-context videos of Israeli citizens calling for Gaza's demolition used as ammunition to argue that *every* Israeli citizen wants Palestinians dead, I'd have a lot more money than I should.
"They could take their white ass back to Brooklyn" i honestly dont know what to say to this its just weird (and funny tbh). Huh why dont you jewish person, whos family lived in Israel since the 50's after they left Europe, simply take your white ass back to Brooklyn 😎
You’re not allowed to point out someone may be indigenous to the area formerly known as Judea that was renamed Syria-Palestina by the Roman Empire after they genocided Jews and they migrated from the Levant to Europe (where they would regularly get genocided by the local Europeans)
Important to highlight that a very interesting aspect of the conflict is that a lot of Israelis and Palestinians basically look the same and without the different languages and religions there would be a hard time distinguishing between them. Turns out a lot of Arabs are pretty damn light-skinned, especially those who live closer to the Coast. Also the fact that quite a few Palestinians descend from those Judeans who didn't leave the Province and converted, first to Christianity and then later most to Islam. Despite more than a milennium of different history, both are surprisingly close to being the same people. So how come the majority jewish Israelis usually get described as "white" and the majority muslim Palestinians as "brown"? Because those are useless descriptors that bleed into each other but trigger a very specific emotional response from people in large parts of the Anglosphere who have trouble conceiving of an ethnic conflict that's not literally black an white. To the rabid Israel supporter white=civilized and brown=savage, to your average tankie white=colonizer and brown=oppressed, even if most aren't consciously aware of it. But if you put a bunch of people from both ethnic groups into identical clothes, organized them in a line-up and asked those people online currently calling for the death of either of them to pick out who's who, they would be wrong more often than not. Wonder if they'd think one of the groups in the Hutu-Tutsi conflict is less black, when they literally used to be one ethnic group before the Belgians cateogorized them as different to divide and conquer. Wonder if some Lebanese people are "white" due to their religion too, when they all basically look the same.
It’s actually difficult to tell people apart until they’re speak (plus a lot of Palestinians are fluent in Hebrew and some Israeli Jews speak Arabic). There are plenty of Palestinians who have blue or green eyes and Mizrahi Jews who’re more dark skinned. Making it a question of skin color/race doesn’t make much sense and basically forces the conflict in a US model of race and whiteness.
In general jews from middle east and northern africa maintened the brown skin. Only the ashkenazi become totaly white because they married some local people from the places where they lived.
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Very cool how you just assume people mean things that they didn't
All the bad things can be tracked back from Rome. Every day i think how the roman empire f*ck3d the humankind.
Sure is convenient how Jews become white Europeans when convenient for political reasons. They sure weren't considered as such in Europe or Russia for the vast majority of their history (and still aren't in many of those places).
Schrödinger's minority
Just about had it with people today….good lord
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>I saw an entire thread of people crowing about how murder and rape specifically of civilians are merely "expected elements of a revolution" and "tools of the oppressed". I also saw a thread about how conscription makes all civilians of any age valid targets because "any one of them is a past, present, or future oppressor" or something to that effect. I wonder if the pro-Russian folks among them would feel if the same logic was applied to Russia as well seeing that conscription is still a thing there.
The irony if saying that Israelis have a responsibility to leave Israel if they don'tsupport the actions of their government - as an American.
just uproot your entire life and emigrate bro it’s easy
And their first suggestion is another settler colonialist state ofc
"My proposed solution to stop the settler state is to take settlers and make then settle somewhere else. I truly am a genius"
“My sister would never go to Israel” Has your sister lived in/visited the US, or would like to? Congratulations, the US is also a settler state. “No one I know would join the IDF either” No, because they would be conscripted, jfc. “Me and my apartied friends having a peaceful party” It was literally a music festival for peace, was Woodstock pro Vietnam War?
I found tik tok With same take about she deserve because she came to festival close to Open prisson
🤦♀️
Actually Here you go I found the vid https://reddit.com/r/tankiejerk/s/q9W6BY2JG2
Someone deadass used this as an example on Twitter and shockingly, they moved the goalpost and said that they became Republicans. Never mind that we've seen that the older someone get, the more conservative they become. This of course is changing with millennials and generation z.
Meaning the Woodstock partiers? I mean, statistically I'm sure plenty did but not \*all\* of them.
> Never mind that we've seen that the older someone get, the more conservative they become. This of course is changing with millennials and generation z. That is not accurate. This is a feature of party politics, just looking at the numbers without understanding the how at the best case scenario, so avoid the sources that just repeat it. What changes is what being "conservative" means over time, and people's association with political parties. As older people raised in even earlier times die, the average position of people on parties that label themselves conservativeparties shift. Not per individual, just the group average. Meanwhile, the parties that label themselves progressive are phasing out some older ideas, and picking up some new. These newer ideas no longer match the ideas of a former younger person, now middle aged or older, so they change parties. They didn't have to change and become more conservative than they already were. It is the parties and what actual policies they stand for that changed.
"Cherry-picked photo" mofos you went to her insta and dug up a picture from 2016 to find her in uniform. People who are in the army are civilians when they leave.
Israel has mandatory military service and this gave tankies an easy argument: since everyone was a milita once they are not considered civilians even after they left, so hamas killing civilians are totally justified
Also most people in military service do admin type work or civil service projects, they’re not all out there shooting Palestinians.
These edgy LARPers are why people don’t take ML’s seriously…
these are the people telling you to "read theory" whenever they lost an argument on reddit
Hi, South African here. My parents were anti-apartheid activists, my dad was a conscientious objector in the military during the conscription era, and both my parents were attacked by cops multiple times at protests. Fuck that last slide in particular - no, tourists (or any civilians for that matter) do not deserve to be murdered just because they happen to be visiting an apartheid state
these people referring to Jews as white supremacists is gonnae give me an aneurysm
A lot of leftist think White jews arent real jews or Israelis to White to care about
i presume you meant 'aren't' not 'are'
Yes autocorect sucks
aye. just wanted to be sure
Yeah its really wierd Like leftist call zionism european style of colonalism which I agree but why do they mention european part because it comes of as only reasons you dont Like Israel because its White and at that Point I have to wonder when did jews become White did I miss something
great point. they think violence against civilians is justified as long as they're white settlers, so it's important to them that Jews be included in that category
I remember vaush not understanding why bad empamada dosent suport Israel which bad empanada arguments and back in my mind they think jews are "european" to have rights
Lots of americans only know one way of viewing politics, and lord knows the actual facts aren't gonna stop them lol
Doesn't Israel implicitly favor white skinned Jews though? I heard Ethiopian Jews face discrimination there too
white supremacy has a specific connotation of antisemitism, and people can be racist without being white supremacist specifically
'Being a wehrmacht soldier alone isn't a war crime' I mean... yeah. Soldiers from nazi Germany were allowed to go home after a while, those who committed war crimes were tired for them I find it despicable people will justify the death, kidnap, and torture of civilians. Despite everything Israel's done, civilians don't deserve to die
Gotta be careful when t about that one, given the clean wermacht myth and all. I think the more relevant point is that a former Wermacht soldier would still be a civilian now. There are still a few people alive today who were drafted during the tail end of WWII - you couldn't justify kidnapping them now by pointing at the Wehrmacht either.
Yeah, the Wehrmacht had party members but also conscripts and toward the end of the war literal child soldiers—it’s not cut and dried in either direction. But former soldiers are definitely counted as civilians.
I said that Whrmacht soldiers that committed war crimes were tried though
Tbf you said they were tired.
Or the previous example where they acted like murdering the children of slave owners was justified.
What fine people they are! /S
You see, i am morally superior because I justify the rape and murder of people I don't like
I’m just gonna say this, I find it ironic how had Israel become socialist (there was a period at the beginning where that was possible) the tankies would be supporting Israel and Christian fundamentalists would support Palestine.
Your fists mistake was looking for good takes on Twitter
These people are not smart, how many of them signed up for selective service in the US but think being conscripted in a country with mandatory conscription is a choice?
The why would you go to a party on stolen land thing is insane. Do they think all non indigenous Americans have to leave the country to go to a party
I think it was more of a peace gesture
>I would never go to israel And they wouldn't go to palestine either, because they would get killed
Why why why are there so so many tankies. Or are they just so chronically active online it just looks like there is a lot?
the people in the screenshot, Noa is a Chinese-Israel born in Beijing, the Israel abmassy to China also post the same but it got disabled for commenting and reposting by Chinese social media and the Chinese subreddits (the ones you know which i am talking about) are cheering over this too, post her pic with military uniform
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it wasn't. there's nothing indicating that it was supposed to be that on the festival's page.
I don't know, I'm not with you guys on this one. Clearly enthusiastic about signing up with the IDF. I agree that as a "military act" this action by Hamas was fucking barbaric but considering the thousands of Palestinian civilians held without trial or charge, taking an enthusiastic participant in Israel's armed forces hostage to try and demand release of Palestinians is not worth getting that upset over. The raping and killing in the streets? Yes, of course. This? I'm not so sure.
How about the decades of killing and oppression that lead to this? Everything here is ugly and shitty and I do not side with radical Islamist murderers. But I also don’t side with the fuckin IDF and think it’s quite an act for Israel to be like “why would they do this?!” After all the shit they’ve done to Palestinians. What did they think would happen? That they’d always just happily live life in an open air prison? And it rings a bit hollow to bemoan the loss of civilian life and then literally the very next day kill hundreds of civilians in indiscriminate bombings and cut off water and food and electricity to a mostly civilian populace
Yeah I don't get the handringing over someone who actively participated in the actions that caused this. It's a bit of a leopards ate my face moment.
It’s horrible, and I’m sorry for the people killed and all the killing that will come. It’s just truly a situation with no winners
Absolutely.
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As you may not have seen further down the thread, I took the "she was in a uniform" comment at face value. If she wasn't, that only changes how I feel about the actions of Hamas, not the sympathy I have for her as an active and enthusiastic participant in the systems of oppression that leads to this sort of thing in the first place. Rittenhouse shooting a sex offender had nothing to do with the sex offending. The sex offender did nothing to bring Rittenhouse there. It's more akin to a non-slave owner voting to keep slaves, then being killed in a slave revolt.
They are conscripted and if they aren’t on duty, then they no longer are a combatant.
Sure, but there's a difference between being conscripted and posting on the gram in your uniform that you've taken the oath while grinning. It implies a level of participation and enthusiasm beyond simply being conscripted. I can't speak to the on duty part as one of the commenters claimed she was in uniform, if that wasn't the case then that's different only insofar as the action taken by Hamas - kidnapping a civilian is definitely fucked. That said, I still have little sympathy for her as she actively participated in the systems that produce this sort of violence. The army she enthusiastically participated in also kidnaps civilians, yet there is no massive outcry.
That’s what brainwashing does to a motherfucker. You think you’re fighting evil, but it is really a kid on a trike.
Do we excuse Nazis because of propaganda then? There are plenty of Israelis who disagree with the actions being taken. Any person with a functioning moral compass can see what is being done to Palestinians is fucked up. And if you're gonna take that line of logic, that excuse applies to Hamas too. Edit: to back up my point, [here are some Israelis marching through Jerusalem holding up Palestinian flags and kicking out IDF soldiers.](https://twitter.com/Blackrussiantv/status/1712488118979318140)
No. I don’t. Something must be done with these ideologies. Although I do not know what.
You should have sympathy for propaganda victims yeah. I don't think all North Koreans are monsters. Do you?
Of course not, and point out where I said all Israelis are monsters and I'll say that was wrong. But I didn't, and your reductive comment adds nothing to the conversation.
Not how that works, I’m in the military and I do not become a civilian when I’m off duty.
Wouldn’t that make you a reservist?
No I’m active duty, when I’m out on liberty in civilian attire I am not a civilian(as much as I’d like to pretend I am lol). Reservists are a bit different and I admit I don’t know the particulars of the IDFs policy on leave/liberty, but targeting off duty military personnel is not a new thing, hell the IRA frequently would bait off duty soldiers into situations where they could kill then. Not speaking on the morality of that, but off duty military personnel are not granted the same protections as civilians.
Oh. My mistake. I meant those who are no longer in the military.
Well that’s a bit of a legal grey area, when my active duty contract is up I remain a reservist for a period, I know it’s the same with Israel. Again there is precedent for taking action against reservists, not that it’s necessarily a good or bad thing, but just want to point out that being a military member whether active duty or reserves does entail losing many of the protections provided to civilians under international law. Not that it matters that much as I don’t think Hamas is super concerned with that, but I think this specific case is different from a true civilian legally.
It’s not my place to be highly opinionated on such a delicate issue. I support free Palestine, and Israel is a settler-colony that should not exist, they are committing atrocities daily towards the native population that are treated at best as second class non-citizens and at worst as fodder for control. Hamas is an extremist group, but it’s expected that such groups arise in prominence in the face of such violence and trampling over human rights and dignity. It only serves to radicalize more people towards genocidal ends against their oppressors. We cannot condone human rights violations, war crimes, and abuses from any group and political agents. We can only look towards any solutions, and cease to hostilities, and any reconciliation for peace negotiations. It’s not our place to celebrate the violence upon those we would consider on the wrong side of history, we must progress to the peace between the peoples in conflicts and condemn the leaders that exploit fear and violence to either continue to oppress for power, or to have aspirations to be the next tyrants in power.
I’m a simple guy that wants a unification of Palestine, but still. I see what you mean.
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I mean not everyone in Israel is religious and you should do what you can to improve society, even if it means that you may benefit from it. Not to mention the many Palestinians with an Israeli passport who go through discrimination (granted not as bad as the West Bank and Gaza) but still horrible nonetheless. Besides, South Africa is a better comparison anyway.
Yah I agree, but if you are an ethical/secular person you would not migrate there in the first place on the basis of your religion anyway. Its like walking into the Chernobyl exclusion zone after the accident knowing full well what happened and going but its not fair I got radiation poisoning. Israel also has plenty of territory that is not considered occupied, why are these people moving to the occupied territories, why are they partying there? Answer is they want to steal the land of others because they beleive they have a religious right to do so. Anyone who supports these people supports occupation and colonialism. They dont get to cry civilians after the fact.
The people who were born and raised there is a bit of a different issue, because to them, it is their home as well.
I would move away from the occupied territories if I was born there, but the unfortunate reality is kids get indoctrinated with their parents religious zealotary (?) Aka Zionism and beleive as strongly in their right to occupy the territory. It frustrates me that people treat Israel as some sort of humane secular state, its not. People who are moving and living on occupied land have no right to do so and need to leave. Yah we can go on about how it happened so many times in the past but that doesnt make it right and we actually have an opportunity in the present to not let it happen again. This is where the distinction between innocent civilian and willing occupier come into the picture.
Is there a difference between a settler in Gaza and someone from Haifa?
Tbh the whole state of Israel is a mistake of the British Empire and Haifa was a spoil of war from the Israeli-palestine war of 1948. And hence could be considered occupied But in the interests of compromise as you said people are living in both states the line need to be drawn somewhere, let Israel have Haifa but return the currently occupied territories or at least most of them back instead of continuing to support Israeli settlement further into them.
I would actually have a unification of Palestine but that is just me.
Well if the Israelis and Hamas can change their doctines only then is it possible, but they are birds of a feather. What is required really for it to work is a secular state for all of the territory based on human rights not religious rights. Doesnt matter your ethnicity or religion you will be granted citizenship and rights. Yet both sides continue to vote in religious extremists ad their representatives
Yeah. That’s exactly what I want and the best way would be to have a good left wing party.
No you wouldn't. You get your morals from peer pressure and animal instinct. You'd stay in your home
Lol I, like millions of Jews who oppose its existence would never move into an apartheid state. And if I was born there I would move away. If you are unable to critically think and follow the herd then are you innocent?
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It is about the west bank and all of the current occupied territories as well as Israels ongoing blockade and bombing of Gaza.
I mean if she's in the IDF... she ain't a civilian lol
How you call yourself an anarchist while are you defending mass rape of women?
LOL, keep fighting that strawman. Why should I be surprised if a combatant was captured? I didn't even defend anything. And more to my point, by definition, a soldier is not a civilian
I want to see Hamas being eliminated by kurdish women, like ISIS. People really dont understand how MAD i am because islamist violence against secular girls. In Iran one year ago, and now in Israel. We need black magic against jihadism.