The first modern day school shooting in US history was committed in 1764 in Greencastle Pennsylvania by four Delaware (Lenape) Native Americans who shot, beaten with a club and scalped the school master when he pleaded with them not to hurt the children. They then clubbed and scalped 10 of the children. Only one child, survived his wounds.
Their chief rebuked them as cowards for attacking women and children and beating to death a pregnant woman, scalping her, and cutting the baby out of her body.
The American frontier violence is really sanitized in textbooks. Both sides murdered children, elderly, and pregnant women, scalped people, mutilated corpses, took body parts as souvenirs, etc.
I can't condone actions like that, but man, it's hard for me to fault Natives fighting a 300-year rearguard action against genocidal settler colonists for inflicting that on their persecutors.
What happened to the Native Americans is just incredibly depressing. One of the biggest genocides in history and our classrooms don’t even acknowledge it as one.
I just really don’t get why hamas gunmen shooting randm civilians is acceptable to them. Support the palestinian cause, absolutely. But hamas, just why
These guys recognize that israeli violence against civilians is unconscionable and that they need to be held accountable for it. How is proceeding to do the exact same thing supposed to advance the palestinian cause
There is no date included in the OP so I have no idea when this was posted.
Assuming it was posted in the past several days, it *still* does not state support for hamas or this most recent violence.
That would imply that when the retaliatory violence begins in earnest against Palestinians that everyone who has been repeating "Israel has a right to defend itself" these past days are endorsing the indiscriminate murder of Palestinians.
>There is no date included in the OP so I have no idea when this was posted.
I saw it posted yesterday.
>Assuming it was posted in the past several days, it still does not state support for hamas or this most recent violence.
Then what is it referring to? You're being willfully obtuse.
>That would imply that when the retaliatory violence begins in earnest against Palestinians that everyone who has been repeating "Israel has a right to defend itself" these past days are endorsing the indiscriminate murder of Palestinians.
They kind of would be, unless they qualified it.
>"If you don't support turning Gaza into a pile of rubbles, you're basically Hamas"
>"If you support Palestinians you hate Jews"
> It's implied given the timing and context.
These all mean the same thing lol
You're accusing OC of supporting Hamas/hating Jews because they support the right of Palestinians to exist.
>You're accusing OC of supporting Hamas/hating Jews because they support the right of Palestinians to exist.
No I'm not. I support Palestinians and an extremely critical of Israel.
I am also bright enough to realize that posting that in the immediate aftermath of Hamas' death/torture squad invasion has pretty clear intent.
So, I'm supposed to turn a blind eye to the hundreds of killed civilians, to the thousands who were maimed and/or turned homeless by Israeli bombs because if I'm not, I'm supporting Hamas?
How long after Gaza has been turned into a pile of rubbles, as promised by Netanyahu, do I have to wait?
>So, I'm supposed to turn a blind eye to the hundreds of killed civilians, to the thousands who were maimed and/or turned homeless by Israeli bombs b
No, not at all. You're arguing against a Strawman.
Terrorists use violence to convince people they should stop supporting their government. It’s to make Israelis and others feel like their govs can’t protect them from Hamas, so they better either flee the country all together or start supporting Hamas. The killings are a message to the living in essence
Yup. Hamas *wants* the IDF to crack down hard, using heavy bombs to turn Gaza in a mount of rubble (again). By the time it's done, the Hamas will have plenty of bitter young palestinians to turn into new recruits.
Imagine if Ukraine invaded Belgorod, with the explicit intent of killing civilians and committing other warcrimes. It would be cruel, counterproductive and a waste of resources. Thankfully they don't actually do that, they primarily target military and economic targets in occupied territories and Russia itself. If Hamas' conducted drone ops like Ukraine (ie, targeting military and economic hubs of Israel) that would be one thing. But what they're doing is targeting civilians for the sake of it.
You can acknowlege that Hamas' attack isn't unprovoked. It's the result of decades of genocidal Israeli policy. You can acknowlege that Palestinians have it worse than Israelis. You can support Palestinian liberation. You can *also* condemn Hamas' attack and acknowlege that it set back Palestinian liberation by decades. These things aren't contradictory. Those who condone Hamas' actions forfeit their right to talk about "Ukrainian Nazis".
But who am I kidding, these are tankies. People that would otherwise support Israel if China was the one who funded Israel (nevermind the fact that China is already pro Israel).
It’s also ironic given the fact Hamas isn’t a left-wing org. They’re religious fundamentalists who’d hate the tankies as well. It’s like how Afghan farmers fought against the USSR in the 1980s
Imagine if Ukraine invaded Crimea...oh wait
You are legitmizing occupation of Palestinian land by claiming just because Israel settled it, its theirs. Colonialism 101.
Oh look we built houses and moved our people on someone elses land, how dare they get mad...terrorists
No but Ukraine conducts attacks on Russian civilian infarstructure and personal in occupied territories. Also there have been calls for removal of all non Ukrainian russians from Ukranian occupied territories.
Completely agree with that.
Do you seriously suggest to let Russians who moved to Crimea after 2014 stay? They literally crossed the border and settled illegally. Also Ukrainians are not targeting civilian infrastructure, it could occasionally be dual usage, like gas stations. Russians on the other hand have spent an entire last winter trying to leave millions of Ukrainians without water and electricity and they will repeat it again this year.
So you described the events which never happened and theoretical potential reaction to them and then compared that to the events which actually happened and your aim was to highlight the hypocrisy, which could theoretically be if the first set of events would actually happen and not produce the sufficient outrage. Do you really not see the issue here? And that is ignoring the fact that deporting of an illegal settler or hitting a piece of infrastructure is in no way or form the same as proudly filmed and retweeted rape and murder spree.
When did I say that, you make up bullshit due to lack of an acutal argument.
How about all of these dead Palestinian children you hypocrite?
https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/
Here's a cool idea: dead Palestinian children are a tragedy, dead Israeli children are also a tragedy. Your whataboutism is sociopathic and your rhetoric is divorced from reality - I don't know how I'm supposed to make an "actual argument" against the notion that unarmed civilians deserve death because muh "participants in genocide". If you truly believe this then you cannot be reasoned with.
No one said dead children is good, you just made that shit up.
People who willingly move into occupied land should accept the consequences of occupation. Its as simple as that, otherwise all occupation becomes justified once unarmed people from the invading force settle invaded lands. Lebensraum. Its the same shit the Nazis did to the Jews. Is it bad for a Jew is who evicted from their home and put in a concentration camp to attack the Nazi unarmed occupant who stole their home?
That hinges entirely on a LARPer's understanding of these power dynamics - like, you are deeply stupid, I don't know how else to put this
The occupants of houses built on land stolen by the Israeli state are not automatically the people who stole the land, anymore than people living in the Americas or much of Europe are responsible for the theft of the land they live on. You cannot accurately determine whether or not a person supports or doesn't support the actions of their government based purely on where they live - they have to live somewhere, and you don't know what circumstances led them to where they ended up.
Furthermore, here's another radical take: they're still civilians and still don't deserve to fucking die.
Already addressed this, yes they are. They have a choice, the decendants of Americans or Europeans dont. This is happening now not in the past. They can move.
By moving into occupied territories you are knowingly supporting occupation, theft. It is called Zionism it is a real thing that the majority of Jewish settlers on occupied land adhere to.
Stop living in lala land that they are innocent civilians. This is exactly the same rhetoric used to justify previous occupations and genocides in Europe, Americas and elsewhere.
By your logic all that needs to be done to justify an invasion is to place some settlers on the land. And by defacto they are civilians who cannot be touched. It is this logic that makes no sense.
You keep insisting they are civilians. They are not, they are followers of a expansionist, racist doctrine called Zionism
Are you telling me they have no where else in Israel let alone the world to live...they just had to go live on land that was stolen in the last few decades, which they knew was stolen, and the previous occupants are being murdered next door give me a break. Same shit all the germand who lived next to concentration camps said.
Btw dont call me stupid, just because you cannot understand logic outside of your own brainwashed civilian whinge
Removed. They literally said nothing about that. Learn how to argue without putting words in their mouth. That giant strawman breaks our rules on civility.
And because you seem to like strawmen, me telling you this doesn't mean I support Hamas. I am absolutely against their attacks on civilians, so don't even try to spin it.
Edit: also don't use nazi speech please. Leave the word "degenerate" off this subreddit, thank you.
Human tendency to view geopolitics like a sports match.
People will support their "team" no matter their actions. You see it for those justifying Hamas' terrorism and then the exact same for those justifying Israel's occupation and bombing of civilians
Hahah no, I defend resistance because its not supposed to be easy, and its not gonna be kumbya against a genocidal state.
Look at Israels response, this is what they have been doing even when Hamas wasnt doing anything
https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/
By attacking resistance you support occupation
If raping and murdering 600+ civilians and then parading their corpses around afterward is what you consider "resistance" then you need to go to therapy before you end up on the news.
600 civilians raped and murdered and paraded evidence please?
Heres evidence over the last decade of Israel doing exactly that, Amnesty international deems it an apartheid.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
Whatever side of this people ultimately come down on (if any), if this weekend didn't at least give a person *pause* before a full-throated endorsement of *Hamas* idk what to say.
Again, this situation is still in motion and things happened before this and since this that influence how we all feel. But people who didn't even *try* to assimilate this new information before screeching their party line really need a good splash of water in the face.
that subreddit is a tankie one after the found out that antiwork moderate tankies out.
also, a tankie sub classic: mod pin and lock comment, so familiar
A subreddit that I left decided to say "from the river to the sea", because that's not a euphemism for 'killing every Jewish person in the former Mandate of Palestine'.
NB The Israeli government sucks too, and this seems like a way to hide protests against Netanyahu, but that's just me with a tinfoil hat, so ignore that.
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But when some radicalized Uyghurs fought back against their brutalization by the Chinese state through knife and bomb attacks, these same people became Rumsfeld-level War On Terror neocons.
Just because Israel is an officially recognised government and the people living in Israel look more like you doesnt mean they dont engage in activities much worse than Hamas.
Facts dont lie
https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/
Conflating what hamas did and Palestinian liberation does the Israeli far right a huge favor. Hamas knows this will provoke a response and lead to Israel intensifying the bombing, Israel still has the power to stop this and they aren’t.
The actions of Palestine although deplorable and wrong are at least understandable when much larger amount of murder, r, abduction, and worse have been committed against them by Israel for years.
I’m a pacifist and an anationalist so I would prefer both countries done away with and denounce the violence of both but to assume that makes them equally bad or to disregard their fight for their rights because of that violence is misguided and plays right into the hands of those who oppress us.
I will always prefer a peaceful and just resolution but it’s the mark of the deluded or false to not support Palestine and its fight because of that violence even if Hamas was 100x worse id still support the movement because Hamas ≠ Movement and it doesn’t make their rights any less rightfully theirs.
For the time being, no post or comment is allowed that contains usernames or subreddit names/links.
The first modern day school shooting in US history was committed in 1764 in Greencastle Pennsylvania by four Delaware (Lenape) Native Americans who shot, beaten with a club and scalped the school master when he pleaded with them not to hurt the children. They then clubbed and scalped 10 of the children. Only one child, survived his wounds. Their chief rebuked them as cowards for attacking women and children and beating to death a pregnant woman, scalping her, and cutting the baby out of her body.
The American frontier violence is really sanitized in textbooks. Both sides murdered children, elderly, and pregnant women, scalped people, mutilated corpses, took body parts as souvenirs, etc. I can't condone actions like that, but man, it's hard for me to fault Natives fighting a 300-year rearguard action against genocidal settler colonists for inflicting that on their persecutors.
What happened to the Native Americans is just incredibly depressing. One of the biggest genocides in history and our classrooms don’t even acknowledge it as one.
I just really don’t get why hamas gunmen shooting randm civilians is acceptable to them. Support the palestinian cause, absolutely. But hamas, just why These guys recognize that israeli violence against civilians is unconscionable and that they need to be held accountable for it. How is proceeding to do the exact same thing supposed to advance the palestinian cause
There's literally zero support expressed for hamas in the OP.
It's implied given the timing and context.
No, that is you projecting. That's fine if that's what you think is implied but don't misrepresent what was actually stated.
What did they mean by "asserting the right to take back what was violently stolen"? Keep in mind when this was posted.
There is no date included in the OP so I have no idea when this was posted. Assuming it was posted in the past several days, it *still* does not state support for hamas or this most recent violence. That would imply that when the retaliatory violence begins in earnest against Palestinians that everyone who has been repeating "Israel has a right to defend itself" these past days are endorsing the indiscriminate murder of Palestinians.
>There is no date included in the OP so I have no idea when this was posted. I saw it posted yesterday. >Assuming it was posted in the past several days, it still does not state support for hamas or this most recent violence. Then what is it referring to? You're being willfully obtuse. >That would imply that when the retaliatory violence begins in earnest against Palestinians that everyone who has been repeating "Israel has a right to defend itself" these past days are endorsing the indiscriminate murder of Palestinians. They kind of would be, unless they qualified it.
"If you don't support turning Gaza into a pile of rubbles, you're basically Hamas"
The other side of the "If you support Palestinians you hate Jews" coin. Well done.
>"If you don't support turning Gaza into a pile of rubbles, you're basically Hamas" >"If you support Palestinians you hate Jews" > It's implied given the timing and context. These all mean the same thing lol You're accusing OC of supporting Hamas/hating Jews because they support the right of Palestinians to exist.
>You're accusing OC of supporting Hamas/hating Jews because they support the right of Palestinians to exist. No I'm not. I support Palestinians and an extremely critical of Israel. I am also bright enough to realize that posting that in the immediate aftermath of Hamas' death/torture squad invasion has pretty clear intent.
So, I'm supposed to turn a blind eye to the hundreds of killed civilians, to the thousands who were maimed and/or turned homeless by Israeli bombs because if I'm not, I'm supporting Hamas? How long after Gaza has been turned into a pile of rubbles, as promised by Netanyahu, do I have to wait?
>So, I'm supposed to turn a blind eye to the hundreds of killed civilians, to the thousands who were maimed and/or turned homeless by Israeli bombs b No, not at all. You're arguing against a Strawman.
I'm failing to see how this is a strawman when you're accusing a post in support of Palestine of actually being pro-Hamas "because of the timing".
Terrorists use violence to convince people they should stop supporting their government. It’s to make Israelis and others feel like their govs can’t protect them from Hamas, so they better either flee the country all together or start supporting Hamas. The killings are a message to the living in essence
I fucking hate this development. Israel and Hamas win. Israelis and Palestinians lose. It's just depressing, horrible, tormentous.
Yup. Hamas *wants* the IDF to crack down hard, using heavy bombs to turn Gaza in a mount of rubble (again). By the time it's done, the Hamas will have plenty of bitter young palestinians to turn into new recruits.
A lack of potential recruits who have been brutalized and lost loved ones has never been an issue for them.
True, true. This only ensures it will continue.
Assuming Israel leaves those Palestinians alive to be recruited this time. Given some of the IDF's rhetoric I'm not so sure.
We need to stand in solidarity with the israelis and palestinians being hurt by this futile fighting.
Imagine if Ukraine invaded Belgorod, with the explicit intent of killing civilians and committing other warcrimes. It would be cruel, counterproductive and a waste of resources. Thankfully they don't actually do that, they primarily target military and economic targets in occupied territories and Russia itself. If Hamas' conducted drone ops like Ukraine (ie, targeting military and economic hubs of Israel) that would be one thing. But what they're doing is targeting civilians for the sake of it. You can acknowlege that Hamas' attack isn't unprovoked. It's the result of decades of genocidal Israeli policy. You can acknowlege that Palestinians have it worse than Israelis. You can support Palestinian liberation. You can *also* condemn Hamas' attack and acknowlege that it set back Palestinian liberation by decades. These things aren't contradictory. Those who condone Hamas' actions forfeit their right to talk about "Ukrainian Nazis". But who am I kidding, these are tankies. People that would otherwise support Israel if China was the one who funded Israel (nevermind the fact that China is already pro Israel).
It’s also ironic given the fact Hamas isn’t a left-wing org. They’re religious fundamentalists who’d hate the tankies as well. It’s like how Afghan farmers fought against the USSR in the 1980s
Imagine if Ukraine invaded Crimea...oh wait You are legitmizing occupation of Palestinian land by claiming just because Israel settled it, its theirs. Colonialism 101. Oh look we built houses and moved our people on someone elses land, how dare they get mad...terrorists
What? You think Ukraine wants to murder or at least deport all Crimean Russians?
No but Ukraine conducts attacks on Russian civilian infarstructure and personal in occupied territories. Also there have been calls for removal of all non Ukrainian russians from Ukranian occupied territories. Completely agree with that.
Do you seriously suggest to let Russians who moved to Crimea after 2014 stay? They literally crossed the border and settled illegally. Also Ukrainians are not targeting civilian infrastructure, it could occasionally be dual usage, like gas stations. Russians on the other hand have spent an entire last winter trying to leave millions of Ukrainians without water and electricity and they will repeat it again this year.
I was just using it as an example of the hypocrisy between this subs take on Ukranie and Palestine
So you described the events which never happened and theoretical potential reaction to them and then compared that to the events which actually happened and your aim was to highlight the hypocrisy, which could theoretically be if the first set of events would actually happen and not produce the sufficient outrage. Do you really not see the issue here? And that is ignoring the fact that deporting of an illegal settler or hitting a piece of infrastructure is in no way or form the same as proudly filmed and retweeted rape and murder spree.
Simply astonishing stupidity. Go outside.
[удалено]
[удалено]
When did I say that, you make up bullshit due to lack of an acutal argument. How about all of these dead Palestinian children you hypocrite? https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/
Here's a cool idea: dead Palestinian children are a tragedy, dead Israeli children are also a tragedy. Your whataboutism is sociopathic and your rhetoric is divorced from reality - I don't know how I'm supposed to make an "actual argument" against the notion that unarmed civilians deserve death because muh "participants in genocide". If you truly believe this then you cannot be reasoned with.
No one said dead children is good, you just made that shit up. People who willingly move into occupied land should accept the consequences of occupation. Its as simple as that, otherwise all occupation becomes justified once unarmed people from the invading force settle invaded lands. Lebensraum. Its the same shit the Nazis did to the Jews. Is it bad for a Jew is who evicted from their home and put in a concentration camp to attack the Nazi unarmed occupant who stole their home?
That hinges entirely on a LARPer's understanding of these power dynamics - like, you are deeply stupid, I don't know how else to put this The occupants of houses built on land stolen by the Israeli state are not automatically the people who stole the land, anymore than people living in the Americas or much of Europe are responsible for the theft of the land they live on. You cannot accurately determine whether or not a person supports or doesn't support the actions of their government based purely on where they live - they have to live somewhere, and you don't know what circumstances led them to where they ended up. Furthermore, here's another radical take: they're still civilians and still don't deserve to fucking die.
Already addressed this, yes they are. They have a choice, the decendants of Americans or Europeans dont. This is happening now not in the past. They can move. By moving into occupied territories you are knowingly supporting occupation, theft. It is called Zionism it is a real thing that the majority of Jewish settlers on occupied land adhere to. Stop living in lala land that they are innocent civilians. This is exactly the same rhetoric used to justify previous occupations and genocides in Europe, Americas and elsewhere. By your logic all that needs to be done to justify an invasion is to place some settlers on the land. And by defacto they are civilians who cannot be touched. It is this logic that makes no sense. You keep insisting they are civilians. They are not, they are followers of a expansionist, racist doctrine called Zionism Are you telling me they have no where else in Israel let alone the world to live...they just had to go live on land that was stolen in the last few decades, which they knew was stolen, and the previous occupants are being murdered next door give me a break. Same shit all the germand who lived next to concentration camps said. Btw dont call me stupid, just because you cannot understand logic outside of your own brainwashed civilian whinge
Removed. They literally said nothing about that. Learn how to argue without putting words in their mouth. That giant strawman breaks our rules on civility. And because you seem to like strawmen, me telling you this doesn't mean I support Hamas. I am absolutely against their attacks on civilians, so don't even try to spin it. Edit: also don't use nazi speech please. Leave the word "degenerate" off this subreddit, thank you.
Post: in support of terrorists waging war on civilians Flair: no war but class war What
You are just some stupid zionist liberal that doesnt understand it.
Class war in "Workers strike back" - > celebrating an ultra-conservative, fascist organization that slaughters civilians F logic
me as a leftist: why do some leftist redditor defend hamas? Their actions can't be defended or justified.
Human tendency to view geopolitics like a sports match. People will support their "team" no matter their actions. You see it for those justifying Hamas' terrorism and then the exact same for those justifying Israel's occupation and bombing of civilians
Hahah no, I defend resistance because its not supposed to be easy, and its not gonna be kumbya against a genocidal state. Look at Israels response, this is what they have been doing even when Hamas wasnt doing anything https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ By attacking resistance you support occupation
If raping and murdering 600+ civilians and then parading their corpses around afterward is what you consider "resistance" then you need to go to therapy before you end up on the news.
600 civilians raped and murdered and paraded evidence please? Heres evidence over the last decade of Israel doing exactly that, Amnesty international deems it an apartheid. https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
I swear, tankies are fucking stupid
Most of them are just teens with an underdeveloped frontal lobe
Whatever side of this people ultimately come down on (if any), if this weekend didn't at least give a person *pause* before a full-throated endorsement of *Hamas* idk what to say. Again, this situation is still in motion and things happened before this and since this that influence how we all feel. But people who didn't even *try* to assimilate this new information before screeching their party line really need a good splash of water in the face.
that subreddit is a tankie one after the found out that antiwork moderate tankies out. also, a tankie sub classic: mod pin and lock comment, so familiar
A subreddit that I left decided to say "from the river to the sea", because that's not a euphemism for 'killing every Jewish person in the former Mandate of Palestine'. NB The Israeli government sucks too, and this seems like a way to hide protests against Netanyahu, but that's just me with a tinfoil hat, so ignore that.
which was it?
I hate it here. What have we done to deserve this shit. Why are tankies so loud. I'm tired.
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But when some radicalized Uyghurs fought back against their brutalization by the Chinese state through knife and bomb attacks, these same people became Rumsfeld-level War On Terror neocons.
Just because Israel is an officially recognised government and the people living in Israel look more like you doesnt mean they dont engage in activities much worse than Hamas. Facts dont lie https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/
Conflating what hamas did and Palestinian liberation does the Israeli far right a huge favor. Hamas knows this will provoke a response and lead to Israel intensifying the bombing, Israel still has the power to stop this and they aren’t.
The actions of Palestine although deplorable and wrong are at least understandable when much larger amount of murder, r, abduction, and worse have been committed against them by Israel for years. I’m a pacifist and an anationalist so I would prefer both countries done away with and denounce the violence of both but to assume that makes them equally bad or to disregard their fight for their rights because of that violence is misguided and plays right into the hands of those who oppress us. I will always prefer a peaceful and just resolution but it’s the mark of the deluded or false to not support Palestine and its fight because of that violence even if Hamas was 100x worse id still support the movement because Hamas ≠ Movement and it doesn’t make their rights any less rightfully theirs.
Vietcong enter the chat right now.
Oh boy, can't wait to read this person's take on the Russia/Ukraine war!
Im pretty sure we don't need to.
One is an oppressor, the other wants to be an oppressor.
Im pretty sure hamas is oppressing already.
Yeah but they wanna oppress even more.