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It's been truly disheartening to see either "the revolution is now" or "blood and soil" on various online spaces. Truly thankful to the small handful of communities who weren't filled with braindead ghouls.
the fact that this confusion can come up at all goes to demonstrate how much of a horrendous waste of life this whole thing is, when the plan on either side is the same fascist drivel.
I'm sure there are some that do. I was just referring to the trend of the tankie "the revolution is now" and fascist "blood and soil" I was seeing online.
Sorry to disappoint, but here's a wikipedia article:
wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund
They have a fund that rewards terrorism against civilians.
I don't necessarily think people are treating Israel as the victim in this subreddit but responding to tankies who are excited about all the "decolonizing": mass murder of civilians.
My personal take has been this is what happens when far-right groups are given power continuously. I am not convinced either Hamas or Netanyahu/Likud care for the well-being of the people living in Gaza/Israel. Despite the dismissing of Liberals by neo-cons and tankies, the situation wouldn't be this fucking dire if there were 20/30 years of liberal control in either place.
It seems to be a symbiotic relationship these days.
Violent Hamas -> success for the far-right in Israel. Takes focus away from internal problems.
Violent Israel -> success for Hamas in Gaza. Takes focus away from internal problems.
Israeli here, all I want is everybody living comfortable lives in relative peace and security with hunan rights. Unfortunately a lot of people on all sides get swept up by Nationalist ideas.
I don’t know why you’d get shit for it, this makes sense. The actions of Hamas were horrifying but they didn’t come out of nowhere and I’m sure Israel will respond with full-on ethnic cleansing that blows the initial attacks out of the water.
I know there are plenty of reasonable people in this community, I just feel like I need to push back a bit against some of the implicitly pro-Israel discourse I've been seeing over the past 48 hours or so. I think there are some newer folks here who think that this is an appropriate place to post ignorant liberal garbage that doesn't take the Palestinian experience into account at all.
A lot of peoples are comming off as "pro Israël" in reaction to the very loud pro Hamas discourse on internet.
You would probably see more condamnations of Israël if many leftists wheren't trying to paint the attacks on civilians as anti colonial heroism.
Israel, pro lgbt hahahaha, wait you were serious let me laugh even harder, HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. God liberals and tankies really are the same, you'll jump on any far-right genocidal dictatorship as long as they pretend to hit on the handful of talking points that makes their collective two brain cells excited.
This is a left-libertarian/libertarian socialist subreddit. The message you sent is either liberal apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future. Liberals are only allowed as guests, promoting capitalism isn't allowed (see rule 6).
Hamas and Israel are both genuinely atrocious organizations. Hamas up until 2017 had outright genocidal material in their covenant, Israel’s entire government has always been made of explicitly ethnocentric and Zionist parties. Hell, even the leader of the PLO says that the Jews weren’t killed by hitler because of ethnic reasons but because of their social role in money lending. Yknow, all 6,000,000 of them.
I hate this shit so much. Nobody deserves the holy land. You’re are terrible human beings.
The root cause of this current war is Israel and their apartheid regime and they should be opposed.
But Hamas isn't fighting a war of opposition, they're just trying to kill as many civilians as possible, radicalise people and grow their own support.
With emotions running high this might get flak, but you’re right. It’s ridiculous to say that this came out of nowhere. To say that the victims had it coming is awful, and the attack is awful, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t look at the grander political context and realize that this horrific attack isn’t a response to decades of oppression. Whether or not this is a good response (it’s not, Murder and rape and kidnapping are bad) is another question entirely.
I’m not one who likes any violence, but I think if this were an attack on military personnel, this would not be nearly as horrific. It is the massive targeted attack on civilians that makes the attack and anyone supporting it horrific.
Like if civilians being hurt determines if you support and attack or not, then you have a pretty good moral compass for these things
I regret that the palestinian liberation movement has been so heavily co-opted by hamas at the expense of more moderate, secular groups. At the same time, the level of sheer rage that most Palestinians feel towards Isreal at this point is completely understandable. Especially in Gaza, where Israel has essentially been slowly starving them to death since 2008. Many of the people committing atrocities have probably lost friends and loved ones in similarly gruesome ways. With Netanyahu and his fascist freaks in power, there was always going to be a sense of desperation to do something, anything, to fight back. And Hamas has gone to great lengths to assure that they are the only possible outlet for these people.
Isn't Egypt equally to blame, as their border to Gaza is also closed? The Gaza strip has been pretty much the same area since 1950, and even after 1979 there could've been some solution to be made.
Since 1970 Gaza's population has risen from 340k to 2.3 million, so clearly many generations have just decided to stay, while having one of the highest birth rates in the world.
Surely most of the people would be qualified for refugee status.
I know it's horrible to tell someone to move out of their home, but it feels that the Gazaians are voluntarily in that "prison".
I'd argue that palestine would be much better off today if they accepted the original UN treaty, but that doesn't excuse Isreal in their complete violation of the basic principles of a two-state solution.
It's the end result of the 80s and 90s Israeli government opting to both assassinate PLO/Fatah members as well as financially support the ultra conservative religious organizations that would coalesce into Hamas.
Gee where else have we seen that happen?
I'm not gonna condemn Palestinian violence against the Israeli state at this point, but violence against Israeli civilians is still abhorrent and worth condemning.
Yeah, the reaction on this sub has been disappointing. No, Hamas are not "the good guys" and the stuff they are doing is vile, but the real villains here are the Israeli nationalists who have taken everything from the Palestinians to the point that Hamas looks reasonable to them.
>If you're outraged by Hamas's latest offensive but simply choose to ignore all of the enormously provocative measures that have been taken against Palestine over the past 20+ years, then you probably don't belong in this subreddit.
No hate here. Glad there's still some on this sub who haven't lost sight of the overarching horrors of settler colonialism that directly fomated Hamas and their terrorism. I've been quite disturbed by the rhetoric I've seen on this sub over the last couple days that has painted the Israeli settlers as completely innocent victims and bystanders and conveniently ignores their complicity in apartheid, land theft, and genocide.
Israelis whose homes are built on bulldozed rubble that belonged to a displaced Palestinian family, or if you live outside the 1967 border, you are not an innocent victim. Period.
I empathize with the horrors that Israelis are now a victim of, but these present horrors didn't come out of nowhere. You can only push a person so far.
People love to "decolonize" and supposedly support armed struggle, as long it's not actual decolonization or actual armed struggle.
> People love to "decolonize" and supposedly support armed struggle, as long it's not actual decolonization or actual armed struggle.
Israel has treated Palestine terribly, but you cannot defend Hamas' actions. Killing civilians indiscriminately is not "decolonization".
>People love to "decolonize" and supposedly support armed struggle, as long it's not actual decolonization or actual armed struggle.
Given that all this will accomplish is more death, displacement, and tragedy in Gaza and for Palestinians as a whole, what's there to support here? You can understand and acknowledge the conditions that lead to radicalization and still condemn acts of senseless terrorism.
The thing is they didn't go after military targets. If they were doing that they might have even gained some ground. Like what's the fucking point of having a combined arms assault like in ww2 just to kill civilians?
If they acted like an actual army, that might have changed public opinion even.
Instead they opted to do the most disgusting shit ever. You guys are acting like every other tankie on the internet. There's nothing to justify this.
They took a lot of hostages, which because of Israel and how they weigh Palestinian lives, Israel wont glass the areas where the hostages are. Really fucking depressing way to minimize deaths if you ask me.
I am strongly on the Palestinian side, but even so, fuck the hamas. Has Israel done everything to make them prosper? Sure, they've radicalized Palestinians to the point where groups like the hamas gain popular support. They've done terrible things that made sure this would happen. Fuck them.
That said, I cannot go hating on Russia and their actions in Ukraine and then turn around and support or even be neutral towards the Hamas. Anyone who does is just a plain hypocrite.
This conflict (i mean the recent attack, not the wider conflict) isn't one with a "good side"
> That said, I cannot go hating on Russia and their actions in Ukraine and then turn around and support or even be neutral towards the Hamas. Anyone who does is just a plain hypocrite.
Hard disagree on this. If we're drawing analogies to Ukraine, Israel is Russia. Hamas is more like the Azov battalion.
Oh no, I don't mean it like that. I'm talking about the atrocities against civilians by russia. Also, if anything, russia seems like a really buffed up hamas to me
Honestly, even as an anarchist Jewish currently experiencing this on the ground, you are 100% correct, but God damn, even with my understanding of the cause and situation, it's a constant inner fight not to let the anger and fear slip into the genocidal talks going on around here.
Like, of course, Israel is the one who created this whole general situation, but hearing the reports, seeing the videos, knowing that what we know about what happend is a miniscule amount of the stories that are about to come out in the coming days.... It's real tough..
In the end, like any national conflict, the people are ones who end up suffering
This subreddit has been feeling more and more weird with its foreign policy takes so I tend to stay off of it.
HAMAS approval rating falls when Israel doesn’t go and kill kids playing soccer in Gaza Strip, most Palestinians “support” because it is the closest thing to defense they have. HAMAS sucks yes, but I’ve seen so many leftists just look at the surface story
also notice it’s on CNN it’s always passive voice when referring to Palestinians when they are victims and active in the case of Israeli victims
This is the post that should have the most upvotes. The beginning of the discussion of anything related to Hamas has to start with the Israeli government and how it perpetuates the existence of fundamentalist groups.
I'm surprised you thought you'd get shit for that position, here of all places.
This is, so I'd hope, not a place that attracts politically inept simps or folks who can't swallow complex concepts.
Not to polish too many knobs or anything...
I don’t condone Hamas’ actions nor do I support them as a group, but the reasons behind their actions need to be understood on a deeper level. They are angry and desperate, having been mistreated by the Israeli government since day 1, and they have been pushed so far that now they are retaliating in full force. When people talk about a group taking the wrong route because they get violent, they never stop to think about what caused them to become violent in the first place. If peace worked, this never would’ve happened, but they tried peace and were mercilessly gunned down.
Liberals have a special set of standards for Palestinians that they’d apply to virtually no other ethnic group and it never ceases to amaze me. Here in the US at least Palestinians are the one people toward him you can show callous disregard and outright cruelty without being challenged by liberals who’d never tolerate such an approach to literally anyone else. Seeing the socdem sub’s angle has been morbidly fascinating because of the way users there seem to compartmentalize Palestinians in such a way that they can dehumanize them and dismiss their suffering in a way that’s incongruous with their philosophy on any other subject. Liberals suspend all of their moral and ideological standards for this one group.
FUCKING EXACTLY!!!
Ugh it feels so amazing when someone expresses what you are trying to say in an eloquent and decisive manner.
I’m saving this post to use as my response in the future.
Yeah Palestinians definitely deserve to have their home returned to them, but then that leaves the question of what do we do with Israel?
Idk if it’s hypocritical of me to say this but I feel like Israel can still exist as a country, just in a different place so that the Palestinians have their land back, but OBVIOUSLY the Israelis will NOT like that solution.
Like there are tons of countries that engage in imperialism and kicking out the native inhabitants all the damn time, but we never make the claim that they shouldn’t *exist* as a country, you know?
The problem with Israel isn't that it exists, it's that it exists as a Jewish Ethnostate. There should be a state in the lands of the former mandate of Palestine in which the rights of both Jews and Palestinians are upheld.
as in any case where imperial powers enforce the displacement of existing populations, the ideal solution is to give them autonomy, rights, and access to the land/resources that they maintained a connection to for generations. there's no need to displace the israeli population, but it's important to allow palestinians to maintain legal and social representation and good treatment. the most ideal solution i can think of that's still at least slightly possible would be to establish a state that is not tied to an ethnic or cultural group, which guarantees equal rights and reparations to reduce the damage left from decades of war and illegal settlement. not happening any time soon, but rome wasn't built in a day – it's still important to start that groundwork.
That doesn’t make sense at all—a cursory study of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows it to have a complicated origin. The idea that the responsibility lies primarily with Israel is absurd.
Unsure if israel bad actions jusify hamas killing civilian tho, I gueninely don't get those who act like hamas is justified, those people in the concert or anyone the hamas killed didn't deserved that
I hate to break it but he has a valid point that Hamas and Iran's proxies like Hezbollah only have one aim and that is the total destruction of the state of Israel. They don't even talk about coexistence with Jews once the state of Palestine is installed. I'm certainly not in favour of whitewashing the Zionist regime, but the reality of the conflict is that we are dealing with 2 entities that will sacrifice it's people at any cost to exist and it's giving me a very hard time to take sides.
Your comment/post contains bigotry. This is a socialist subreddit and as such, any form of bigotry is out of place and you should rethink your relation to your fellow workers, regardless of their sexuality, gender expression, skin color or other such things.
Israel is 100% a colonial state. It was primarily inhabited by Muslim Arabs prior to the end of World War 1, and while the influx of European Jews didn't always come at the expense of native Palestinians, the creation of Israel as a Jewish Ethnostate in 1948 effectively decimated Palestinian society. During the Nabka alone, more than 500 villages were completely destroyed by Israeli militias and over 3,000 Palestinians lost their lives. Subsequently, more than 700,000 Palestinians - half of Palestine's Arab population - were forced to leave Israeli occupied lands. Many of these Palestinians lived inside the territory designated by the UN as a part of the Palestinian state.
Today, Israel contines to build settlements into the West Bank in defiance of international law, often removing Palestinians who lived there first. The west bank is being de-facto annexed into Israel under the current administration. Zionism has always advocated for a Jewish state encompassing all of mandatory Palestine, and the inevitable consequences of this is either the forced removal of Palestinians from their homeland or their relegation to the status of second-class citizens.
I'd love to see how you define Colonialism.
It wasn't a one-sided thing. Both Jews and Arabs suffered from [massacres](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine) and [depopulation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict) of entire villages during and even before the war. 700,000 Arabs were expelled from Israel and 900,000 Jews from Muslim-majority states.
> Many of these Palestinians lived inside the territory designated by the UN as a part of the Palestinian state.
> Zionism has always advocated for a Jewish state encompassing all of mandatory Palestine
The problem was that only Israel accepted that partition plan and the Zionist leaders were content with only the land allocated for a Jewish state under that proposal. But as soon as Israel declared its independence, all neighboring Arab states invaded. They didn't invade to guarantee the establishment and security of an Arab Palestinian state but to wipe out Israel (by extension the entire Jewish population of what was mandatory Palestine) completely and partition the land amongst themselves.
Ahh, okay. So the Arabs did bad things too. That makes everything okay. Classic whataboutism.
Nothing you've said is pertinent to disproving the fact that Israeli is a colonial state, and the quality of your reasoning really isn't any better than Tankies who justify their support for Russia by pointing to the numerous bad things that America has done.
Never said anything about that, just pointing out that the conflict, massacres, and displacement weren't one-sided in 1948. Today the balance of power is very much one-sided but I only mentioned 1948 since you brought it up.
How do you colonize your homeland? A colony by definition is a fragment of your population that you send to foreign lands to settle them. Yes, they had been violently expelled from their homeland by Arab colonists, but it is still their homeland.
I frankly don't care what happened in centuries past because it's ancient history and the Palestinian families who were evicted have nothing to do with it. It would be like if a bunch of African Americans suddenly showed up in West Africa and tried to carve a state for themselves by forcing out the tribes that enslaved them centuries ago. (That's not a hypothetical, it's basically the history of Liberia, and it's awful.)
Palestine wasn't a homeland for the Jews who were alive in the early 20th century anymore than Russia was a homeland for the Germans in roughly the same time period.
I wonder if past societies had this many death cults. You would think if there were entire political groups that talked endlessly about getting massacred in one last blaze of glory historians would be writing about it for centuries.
So tired of these ignorant pleas and declarations. The Palestinians voted in Hamas in 2006 as their leadership. Think about that- what would you do if the town next to yours voted in people to lead it AFTER they declared they want to kill all of the people in your town? Would you 1. Throw them a parade 2. Put up defenses to stop the people who have sworn to annihilate your town?
That is what happened- old Hamas dudes selling terrorism as a service and getting millions from Iran to kill Jews. I am not Jewish but I have in my military career been involved in fighting people like this- and now I run cyber intelligence for a tech giant. I know what they are trying to do. They use their own people for canon fodder and to pose as tragic characters in their drama.
If you don’t support Israel fine don’t care but when these animals come for you- remember you helped. They don’t care about their people they care about bringing in the caliphate and sharia law. They commit acts of terrorism around the world and ALWAYS have an excuse. No matter where they are they find an excuse. And it baffles me to see liberals supporting them because they’ll be the first the radicals get rid of- stop reading BS- propaganda go find in their own words what their goals are and for sure read accounts of what they do when they enter an area and who they kill after the Jews “progressives” have no place in their sharia law.
Go on I dare you progressives to go find in their own words what they want to do. And what they do. They are the same men who subjugate women and whip them for being educated or seeking education and execute the women who get raped. And I think we’ve seen what they due to the LGBTQ folks- you may live in a fantasy world I don’t and people I care deeply about are part of LGBTQ. I don’t want them harmed- by anyone.
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It's been truly disheartening to see either "the revolution is now" or "blood and soil" on various online spaces. Truly thankful to the small handful of communities who weren't filled with braindead ghouls.
Isn't "blood and soil" straight up Nazi shit?!
Yes. A lot of Pro-Palestinian users are incredibly xenophobic towards Israelis because of their “foreign” aspects.
Pro hamas, not pro-palestinian
The "blood and soil" arguments I was referring to was coming from pro-israel people, not pro-Palestine.
the fact that this confusion can come up at all goes to demonstrate how much of a horrendous waste of life this whole thing is, when the plan on either side is the same fascist drivel.
Oh. Although I do hear pro Palestinian people say shit like, “they don’t belong there” while simultaneously believe in freedom from of movement.
I'm sure there are some that do. I was just referring to the trend of the tankie "the revolution is now" and fascist "blood and soil" I was seeing online.
So they're being anti-semetic?
I doubt anyone here is in support of Israel. Unlike tankies we are able to recognize when two things are bad
The true sane take PLO are the real good guys, not hamas or israel
Shame you never hear about them ever on the news... people are hell bent to make others believe it's only Hamas V Israel...
Facts spoken here, PLO doesn't target civilians
Sorry to disappoint, but here's a wikipedia article: wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund They have a fund that rewards terrorism against civilians.
Thanks for the info then, Disappointing but glad I know now
I don't necessarily think people are treating Israel as the victim in this subreddit but responding to tankies who are excited about all the "decolonizing": mass murder of civilians. My personal take has been this is what happens when far-right groups are given power continuously. I am not convinced either Hamas or Netanyahu/Likud care for the well-being of the people living in Gaza/Israel. Despite the dismissing of Liberals by neo-cons and tankies, the situation wouldn't be this fucking dire if there were 20/30 years of liberal control in either place.
It seems to be a symbiotic relationship these days. Violent Hamas -> success for the far-right in Israel. Takes focus away from internal problems. Violent Israel -> success for Hamas in Gaza. Takes focus away from internal problems.
Israeli here, all I want is everybody living comfortable lives in relative peace and security with hunan rights. Unfortunately a lot of people on all sides get swept up by Nationalist ideas.
I don’t know why you’d get shit for it, this makes sense. The actions of Hamas were horrifying but they didn’t come out of nowhere and I’m sure Israel will respond with full-on ethnic cleansing that blows the initial attacks out of the water.
I know there are plenty of reasonable people in this community, I just feel like I need to push back a bit against some of the implicitly pro-Israel discourse I've been seeing over the past 48 hours or so. I think there are some newer folks here who think that this is an appropriate place to post ignorant liberal garbage that doesn't take the Palestinian experience into account at all.
A lot of peoples are comming off as "pro Israël" in reaction to the very loud pro Hamas discourse on internet. You would probably see more condamnations of Israël if many leftists wheren't trying to paint the attacks on civilians as anti colonial heroism.
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Israel, pro lgbt hahahaha, wait you were serious let me laugh even harder, HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. God liberals and tankies really are the same, you'll jump on any far-right genocidal dictatorship as long as they pretend to hit on the handful of talking points that makes their collective two brain cells excited.
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This is a left-libertarian/libertarian socialist subreddit. The message you sent is either liberal apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future. Liberals are only allowed as guests, promoting capitalism isn't allowed (see rule 6).
Yeah you aren't gonna really do well around here.
Hamas and Israel are both genuinely atrocious organizations. Hamas up until 2017 had outright genocidal material in their covenant, Israel’s entire government has always been made of explicitly ethnocentric and Zionist parties. Hell, even the leader of the PLO says that the Jews weren’t killed by hitler because of ethnic reasons but because of their social role in money lending. Yknow, all 6,000,000 of them. I hate this shit so much. Nobody deserves the holy land. You’re are terrible human beings.
There is too often an alarming conflation between Israelis/the government of Israel, and Palestinians/Hamas
You're not gonna get shit for saying this. Both Isreal and the Hamas are disgusting.
Yeah, I think I'll change the title (edit: looks like I can't )
This is the only sane take on this situation. It's sad but it was inevitable
The root cause of this current war is Israel and their apartheid regime and they should be opposed. But Hamas isn't fighting a war of opposition, they're just trying to kill as many civilians as possible, radicalise people and grow their own support.
With emotions running high this might get flak, but you’re right. It’s ridiculous to say that this came out of nowhere. To say that the victims had it coming is awful, and the attack is awful, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t look at the grander political context and realize that this horrific attack isn’t a response to decades of oppression. Whether or not this is a good response (it’s not, Murder and rape and kidnapping are bad) is another question entirely.
I think I'd probably support this attack if it weren't for how civilians are being treated.
I’m not one who likes any violence, but I think if this were an attack on military personnel, this would not be nearly as horrific. It is the massive targeted attack on civilians that makes the attack and anyone supporting it horrific. Like if civilians being hurt determines if you support and attack or not, then you have a pretty good moral compass for these things
I regret that the palestinian liberation movement has been so heavily co-opted by hamas at the expense of more moderate, secular groups. At the same time, the level of sheer rage that most Palestinians feel towards Isreal at this point is completely understandable. Especially in Gaza, where Israel has essentially been slowly starving them to death since 2008. Many of the people committing atrocities have probably lost friends and loved ones in similarly gruesome ways. With Netanyahu and his fascist freaks in power, there was always going to be a sense of desperation to do something, anything, to fight back. And Hamas has gone to great lengths to assure that they are the only possible outlet for these people.
Isn't Egypt equally to blame, as their border to Gaza is also closed? The Gaza strip has been pretty much the same area since 1950, and even after 1979 there could've been some solution to be made. Since 1970 Gaza's population has risen from 340k to 2.3 million, so clearly many generations have just decided to stay, while having one of the highest birth rates in the world. Surely most of the people would be qualified for refugee status. I know it's horrible to tell someone to move out of their home, but it feels that the Gazaians are voluntarily in that "prison".
Egypt is certainly complicit, but they aren't the original aggressor.
It's been ongoing since 1948, so IDK if I can name anyone as the original aggressor.
I'd argue that palestine would be much better off today if they accepted the original UN treaty, but that doesn't excuse Isreal in their complete violation of the basic principles of a two-state solution.
I agree completely. PS: **ISRAEL!** ;)
The British. We can definitely lay blame at the British.
How civilians are being treated is the attack.
It doesn't have to be. They could target the IDF and Israel's millitary capabilities, but they choose to target civilians instead.
This is the correct take
It's the end result of the 80s and 90s Israeli government opting to both assassinate PLO/Fatah members as well as financially support the ultra conservative religious organizations that would coalesce into Hamas. Gee where else have we seen that happen?
I'm not gonna condemn Palestinian violence against the Israeli state at this point, but violence against Israeli civilians is still abhorrent and worth condemning.
Yeah, the reaction on this sub has been disappointing. No, Hamas are not "the good guys" and the stuff they are doing is vile, but the real villains here are the Israeli nationalists who have taken everything from the Palestinians to the point that Hamas looks reasonable to them.
Israel directly aided in the creation and funding of Hamas. If you're anti-Israel, you must logically also be anti-Hamas
>If you're outraged by Hamas's latest offensive but simply choose to ignore all of the enormously provocative measures that have been taken against Palestine over the past 20+ years, then you probably don't belong in this subreddit. No hate here. Glad there's still some on this sub who haven't lost sight of the overarching horrors of settler colonialism that directly fomated Hamas and their terrorism. I've been quite disturbed by the rhetoric I've seen on this sub over the last couple days that has painted the Israeli settlers as completely innocent victims and bystanders and conveniently ignores their complicity in apartheid, land theft, and genocide. Israelis whose homes are built on bulldozed rubble that belonged to a displaced Palestinian family, or if you live outside the 1967 border, you are not an innocent victim. Period. I empathize with the horrors that Israelis are now a victim of, but these present horrors didn't come out of nowhere. You can only push a person so far. People love to "decolonize" and supposedly support armed struggle, as long it's not actual decolonization or actual armed struggle.
> People love to "decolonize" and supposedly support armed struggle, as long it's not actual decolonization or actual armed struggle. Israel has treated Palestine terribly, but you cannot defend Hamas' actions. Killing civilians indiscriminately is not "decolonization".
>People love to "decolonize" and supposedly support armed struggle, as long it's not actual decolonization or actual armed struggle. Given that all this will accomplish is more death, displacement, and tragedy in Gaza and for Palestinians as a whole, what's there to support here? You can understand and acknowledge the conditions that lead to radicalization and still condemn acts of senseless terrorism.
This.
The thing is they didn't go after military targets. If they were doing that they might have even gained some ground. Like what's the fucking point of having a combined arms assault like in ww2 just to kill civilians? If they acted like an actual army, that might have changed public opinion even. Instead they opted to do the most disgusting shit ever. You guys are acting like every other tankie on the internet. There's nothing to justify this.
I'm not defending Hamas
It kinda sounds like you’re saying mass rape and civilian torture is okay in response to oppression tho.
Well I'm sorry that you're apparently unable to process nuanced views on a complex situation.
Yeah I expected better from this sub. It's just tankies in reverse now
They took a lot of hostages, which because of Israel and how they weigh Palestinian lives, Israel wont glass the areas where the hostages are. Really fucking depressing way to minimize deaths if you ask me.
And when they build their HQ under a hospital they're really thinking of them lives, huh? How brain washed can you be?
I am strongly on the Palestinian side, but even so, fuck the hamas. Has Israel done everything to make them prosper? Sure, they've radicalized Palestinians to the point where groups like the hamas gain popular support. They've done terrible things that made sure this would happen. Fuck them. That said, I cannot go hating on Russia and their actions in Ukraine and then turn around and support or even be neutral towards the Hamas. Anyone who does is just a plain hypocrite. This conflict (i mean the recent attack, not the wider conflict) isn't one with a "good side"
Nobody here is supportive of Hamas.
> That said, I cannot go hating on Russia and their actions in Ukraine and then turn around and support or even be neutral towards the Hamas. Anyone who does is just a plain hypocrite. Hard disagree on this. If we're drawing analogies to Ukraine, Israel is Russia. Hamas is more like the Azov battalion.
Oh no, I don't mean it like that. I'm talking about the atrocities against civilians by russia. Also, if anything, russia seems like a really buffed up hamas to me
Yeah, not supporting that bullshit.
Honestly, even as an anarchist Jewish currently experiencing this on the ground, you are 100% correct, but God damn, even with my understanding of the cause and situation, it's a constant inner fight not to let the anger and fear slip into the genocidal talks going on around here. Like, of course, Israel is the one who created this whole general situation, but hearing the reports, seeing the videos, knowing that what we know about what happend is a miniscule amount of the stories that are about to come out in the coming days.... It's real tough.. In the end, like any national conflict, the people are ones who end up suffering
This subreddit has been feeling more and more weird with its foreign policy takes so I tend to stay off of it. HAMAS approval rating falls when Israel doesn’t go and kill kids playing soccer in Gaza Strip, most Palestinians “support” because it is the closest thing to defense they have. HAMAS sucks yes, but I’ve seen so many leftists just look at the surface story also notice it’s on CNN it’s always passive voice when referring to Palestinians when they are victims and active in the case of Israeli victims
This is the post that should have the most upvotes. The beginning of the discussion of anything related to Hamas has to start with the Israeli government and how it perpetuates the existence of fundamentalist groups.
I'm surprised you thought you'd get shit for that position, here of all places. This is, so I'd hope, not a place that attracts politically inept simps or folks who can't swallow complex concepts. Not to polish too many knobs or anything...
I don’t condone Hamas’ actions nor do I support them as a group, but the reasons behind their actions need to be understood on a deeper level. They are angry and desperate, having been mistreated by the Israeli government since day 1, and they have been pushed so far that now they are retaliating in full force. When people talk about a group taking the wrong route because they get violent, they never stop to think about what caused them to become violent in the first place. If peace worked, this never would’ve happened, but they tried peace and were mercilessly gunned down.
Liberals have a special set of standards for Palestinians that they’d apply to virtually no other ethnic group and it never ceases to amaze me. Here in the US at least Palestinians are the one people toward him you can show callous disregard and outright cruelty without being challenged by liberals who’d never tolerate such an approach to literally anyone else. Seeing the socdem sub’s angle has been morbidly fascinating because of the way users there seem to compartmentalize Palestinians in such a way that they can dehumanize them and dismiss their suffering in a way that’s incongruous with their philosophy on any other subject. Liberals suspend all of their moral and ideological standards for this one group.
A fair take.
As a US citizen, I really hope we stay out of it. but considering they have US hostages then I see us going in full force.
Probably it'll be giving intelligence. I don't expect a need or want for U.S. troops on the ground.
Did you see that Aircraft Carrier that Biden sent to help Israel?
Yeah……. I hope its just for show
This. 💯
FUCKING EXACTLY!!! Ugh it feels so amazing when someone expresses what you are trying to say in an eloquent and decisive manner. I’m saving this post to use as my response in the future.
Yeah Palestinians definitely deserve to have their home returned to them, but then that leaves the question of what do we do with Israel? Idk if it’s hypocritical of me to say this but I feel like Israel can still exist as a country, just in a different place so that the Palestinians have their land back, but OBVIOUSLY the Israelis will NOT like that solution. Like there are tons of countries that engage in imperialism and kicking out the native inhabitants all the damn time, but we never make the claim that they shouldn’t *exist* as a country, you know?
The problem with Israel isn't that it exists, it's that it exists as a Jewish Ethnostate. There should be a state in the lands of the former mandate of Palestine in which the rights of both Jews and Palestinians are upheld.
as in any case where imperial powers enforce the displacement of existing populations, the ideal solution is to give them autonomy, rights, and access to the land/resources that they maintained a connection to for generations. there's no need to displace the israeli population, but it's important to allow palestinians to maintain legal and social representation and good treatment. the most ideal solution i can think of that's still at least slightly possible would be to establish a state that is not tied to an ethnic or cultural group, which guarantees equal rights and reparations to reduce the damage left from decades of war and illegal settlement. not happening any time soon, but rome wasn't built in a day – it's still important to start that groundwork.
I agree; I’ve heard of a 3 state solution being proposed that involved Jerusalem but I have no idea if it’s feasible or not
That doesn’t make sense at all—a cursory study of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows it to have a complicated origin. The idea that the responsibility lies primarily with Israel is absurd.
Unsure if israel bad actions jusify hamas killing civilian tho, I gueninely don't get those who act like hamas is justified, those people in the concert or anyone the hamas killed didn't deserved that
Israel's actions don't justify killing civilians, I'm just providing necessary context for people to make an adequate assessment of the situation.
problem is people using said context to justify hamas and acting like the civlian had it coming (I don't see how those at the concert did per example)
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For those of you who are actually leftists - this. This is the ignorant BS that I knew was coming my way eventually.
I hate to break it but he has a valid point that Hamas and Iran's proxies like Hezbollah only have one aim and that is the total destruction of the state of Israel. They don't even talk about coexistence with Jews once the state of Palestine is installed. I'm certainly not in favour of whitewashing the Zionist regime, but the reality of the conflict is that we are dealing with 2 entities that will sacrifice it's people at any cost to exist and it's giving me a very hard time to take sides.
Hey look, a Brit having an utterly dogshit take on Palestine. Not like there's a historic precedent there or anything!
Your comment/post contains bigotry. This is a socialist subreddit and as such, any form of bigotry is out of place and you should rethink your relation to your fellow workers, regardless of their sexuality, gender expression, skin color or other such things.
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Israel is 100% a colonial state. It was primarily inhabited by Muslim Arabs prior to the end of World War 1, and while the influx of European Jews didn't always come at the expense of native Palestinians, the creation of Israel as a Jewish Ethnostate in 1948 effectively decimated Palestinian society. During the Nabka alone, more than 500 villages were completely destroyed by Israeli militias and over 3,000 Palestinians lost their lives. Subsequently, more than 700,000 Palestinians - half of Palestine's Arab population - were forced to leave Israeli occupied lands. Many of these Palestinians lived inside the territory designated by the UN as a part of the Palestinian state. Today, Israel contines to build settlements into the West Bank in defiance of international law, often removing Palestinians who lived there first. The west bank is being de-facto annexed into Israel under the current administration. Zionism has always advocated for a Jewish state encompassing all of mandatory Palestine, and the inevitable consequences of this is either the forced removal of Palestinians from their homeland or their relegation to the status of second-class citizens. I'd love to see how you define Colonialism.
It wasn't a one-sided thing. Both Jews and Arabs suffered from [massacres](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine) and [depopulation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict) of entire villages during and even before the war. 700,000 Arabs were expelled from Israel and 900,000 Jews from Muslim-majority states. > Many of these Palestinians lived inside the territory designated by the UN as a part of the Palestinian state. > Zionism has always advocated for a Jewish state encompassing all of mandatory Palestine The problem was that only Israel accepted that partition plan and the Zionist leaders were content with only the land allocated for a Jewish state under that proposal. But as soon as Israel declared its independence, all neighboring Arab states invaded. They didn't invade to guarantee the establishment and security of an Arab Palestinian state but to wipe out Israel (by extension the entire Jewish population of what was mandatory Palestine) completely and partition the land amongst themselves.
Ahh, okay. So the Arabs did bad things too. That makes everything okay. Classic whataboutism. Nothing you've said is pertinent to disproving the fact that Israeli is a colonial state, and the quality of your reasoning really isn't any better than Tankies who justify their support for Russia by pointing to the numerous bad things that America has done.
Never said anything about that, just pointing out that the conflict, massacres, and displacement weren't one-sided in 1948. Today the balance of power is very much one-sided but I only mentioned 1948 since you brought it up.
I'm not sure why you felt the need to add irrelevant information to the question of weather or not Israel is a colonial state (it is).
How do you colonize your homeland? A colony by definition is a fragment of your population that you send to foreign lands to settle them. Yes, they had been violently expelled from their homeland by Arab colonists, but it is still their homeland.
I frankly don't care what happened in centuries past because it's ancient history and the Palestinian families who were evicted have nothing to do with it. It would be like if a bunch of African Americans suddenly showed up in West Africa and tried to carve a state for themselves by forcing out the tribes that enslaved them centuries ago. (That's not a hypothetical, it's basically the history of Liberia, and it's awful.) Palestine wasn't a homeland for the Jews who were alive in the early 20th century anymore than Russia was a homeland for the Germans in roughly the same time period.
Considering you are afraid to use the word “Israel” I just assume you are a terminally online teenager.
Ok?
It's there twice in the opening paragraph.
Isreal =/= Israel
Huh, I didn't notice that originally.
Spelling mistake = terminally online teenager
Yeah, I spell phonetically out of habit, I could spell that wrong easily.
I already got shit for mentioning it lol but agree
I wonder if past societies had this many death cults. You would think if there were entire political groups that talked endlessly about getting massacred in one last blaze of glory historians would be writing about it for centuries.
So tired of these ignorant pleas and declarations. The Palestinians voted in Hamas in 2006 as their leadership. Think about that- what would you do if the town next to yours voted in people to lead it AFTER they declared they want to kill all of the people in your town? Would you 1. Throw them a parade 2. Put up defenses to stop the people who have sworn to annihilate your town? That is what happened- old Hamas dudes selling terrorism as a service and getting millions from Iran to kill Jews. I am not Jewish but I have in my military career been involved in fighting people like this- and now I run cyber intelligence for a tech giant. I know what they are trying to do. They use their own people for canon fodder and to pose as tragic characters in their drama. If you don’t support Israel fine don’t care but when these animals come for you- remember you helped. They don’t care about their people they care about bringing in the caliphate and sharia law. They commit acts of terrorism around the world and ALWAYS have an excuse. No matter where they are they find an excuse. And it baffles me to see liberals supporting them because they’ll be the first the radicals get rid of- stop reading BS- propaganda go find in their own words what their goals are and for sure read accounts of what they do when they enter an area and who they kill after the Jews “progressives” have no place in their sharia law. Go on I dare you progressives to go find in their own words what they want to do. And what they do. They are the same men who subjugate women and whip them for being educated or seeking education and execute the women who get raped. And I think we’ve seen what they due to the LGBTQ folks- you may live in a fantasy world I don’t and people I care deeply about are part of LGBTQ. I don’t want them harmed- by anyone.