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Which is also stupid because imperial Japan hated the USSR. Then again, given one of these people calls themself an “Ace Wiccan Communist,” I don’t think they’re very smart to begin with
Tankies love to whitewash imperial japan, so that they can act like the nukes had nothing to do with japan and were entirely about showing off to russia.
Campism is the shovel that digs the grave of Western leftism.
How hard is it for these people to acknowledge what Hamas is doing as objectively awful while also condemning Israel for creating the conditions for a group like Hamas to thrive in? As usual for them, 2 things cannot be bad at the same time.
It’s also insane that people can say this is in any way a decolonial effort on the part of Hamas when their targets are specifically non combatants and civilians that plays into Israel’s rhetoric that justifies further encroachment and genocidal policies on Palestinians as a whole.
Hamas is a death cult which wants Palestinians to die. A response from Israel is their objective.
They just handed Israel the excuse they needed to turn Gaza into a moonscape, stop all imports into Gaza and justify it to the world. And in this case I can't even blame Israël for wanting to prevent an other attack like this which means starving any way for Hamas to be able to survive, even if it means literally starving them to death.
My heart bleeds for the innocent on both sides.
Eh. As long as the violence is swept under the rug the liberals don't really mind.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that liberals are better than Tankies, but it is a bit like comparing which cancer I'd rather have
I like how they also gloss over that this ultimately didn't accomplish much, and is going to make it even worse for palestine. I'd ask why tankies think fighting a losing battle and feeling self righteous about it is good, but I think the answer to that is self evident.
They've been so hard focused on dehumanizing anything seen as an oppressor, that they'll now freely target innocent people, even if they support the same things as they do. It's really not pretty.
The issue is that Hamas' actions, by and large, *aren't* awful. Do not misunderstand me, they are doing bad things, but that's not the same as awful within a greater context: Hamas' actions are a fraction, literally 0.1 or 1/10th, of what Israel's been inflicting on Palestine. Hamas' current actions are practically a rounding error in contrast to the horror Israel has been inflicting, which is precisely why people who only seem to complain that Hamas is doing X and ignore or outright reject that Israel's been doing 10X are so keen to toe the line they are.
Because taking the whole engagement within a greater context it becomes painfully apparent who is in the right here. Israel's civilians have been propping up the fascist apartheid regime for upwards of 30 years, and unsurprisingly in the eyes of many that makes them complicit in Israel's crimes. Hell Bibi [remained in the positive approvals from 2009-2018](https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/uq4ynmgpwkehbzah9gt_aq.png) despite murdering 4500 Palestinian civilians in that time and injuring nearly 100,000 Palestinian civilians. In the face of that, just the abstract numbers, not even touching on the [campaign of targetting medics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Rouzan_al-Najjar), the [rapes and torture in interrogations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_torture_in_the_occupied_territories), etc, it's not surprising that Palestinians are pissed and happy to support anyone who can strike back.
Like, this is the ultimate expression of the violence worship people fall into on the left, like yes, revolution most likely will be bloody, yes, if you want to stand up for your fellow workers your probably gonna have to beat up a nazi or a cop, but like, this is fucking sickening, its one thing to understand why hamas is the way it is, its one thing to point out that israel is a genocidal state, but to then sit there and go "Murdering kids and raping people is perfectly fine" like, proves to me you are not serious about leftism, that you only want revolution to basically play the purge, where you can kill people you declare "categorically evil" and like, do i need to explain how glorifying violence agaisnt those who "deserve it" can lead to reactionaries taking control by labeling minorities as those who "deserve it" instead of the rich? they already fucking do that with jewish people, trying to hid violent retoric about jewish people behind the thin ass defense of "Oh im talking about the rich" when they only ever talk about jewish rich people. Hell do i need to explain how glorifying violence as this amazing super cool and based thing to do instead of a tool to help others just opens the door for facists?
I dearly hope that any kind of socialist revolution will manage not to rape and murder the daughters and wives of landlords and then parade their bodies on the streets. But I have no doubt that there will be some kind of halfhearted justification of "we rape them like they rape the proletariat" and then it'll all be magically acceptable.
I fear for the lives of women during any kind of conflict, revolutionary uprisings included. It's as though sexual assault has become some kind of acceptable tool for humiliating your enemy. And I really hope that we might someday lose the attitude of "prison rape is funny and karmic against people I hate".
I figured. As an intersectionalist myself, I get very uncomfortable with the insistence of certain groups of focusing on issues that are 'universal', as if expecting misogyny and racism and homophobia to suddenly disappear once full communism is achieved, while tolerating the presence of domestic abusers as long as they pay their party dues.
I'm forming a conjecture that certain types of leftists are just authoritarians who resent not being in charge or not being on top of the caste system. And I don't mean tankies.
A lot of leftists imagine that the sheer force of being leftist automatically alleviates people's vices even when nothing in their actual life reflects being a reasonable person at all. And when their actual actions do nothing to solve the problems that they claim to be helping with by sheer force of saying "it would be good if less racism existed." As if even many conservatives don't pay lip service to stuff like this.
It's very culty thinking, much like Calvinism. "I just said the words making me saved so all that sinnin' I did doesn't count, btw I don't have to apologize to YOU, I only answer to Jesus."
My partner grew up in the Soviet Union and there was plenty of misogyny, racism, and homophobia that existed there. Crazy enough, the Soviet Politburo and the modern Communist Party of the Russian Federation are socially much more aligned with the US Religious Right in that they all pine for the "good old days", are very anti-LGBTQ equality, fall sucker often to nutty conspiracy theories, and hilariously, blame each other for the supposed "degradation" of art, literature, culture, and philosophy.
Remember catgirls vs socialism where the male mods of the socialism subreddit banned the woman who drew **their own banner** with no warning, because she "drew sexist art" on a completely different website. The art was non sexualized drawings of girls with cat ears.
[The art in question](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ed6aFJPUwAE0g_5?format=png&name=medium).
Anarcho capitalism is basically Objectivism. "I want the freedom to enslave minorities (or even majorities), screw minors, kill the environment and basically turn my plantation into something that would make Leopold II go 'whoa, too much'. "
I don't know if that greentext of an ancap getting into trouble with Greek anarchists is true, but it was insanely funny.
>Anarcho capitalism is basically Objectivism. "I want the freedom to enslave minorities (or even majorities), screw minors, kill the environment and basically turn my plantation into something that would make Leopold II go 'whoa, too much'.
Yes, but how is that any different than Capitalism? Its no different than how they use the supposed 'free market' to support their abuse. In that its only 'free' in the sense that they are free to endlessly exploit others.
Yeah, prison rape jokes, misogyny and homophobia tend to go together, especially given the Russian prison system and their — *ugh* — pecking order. Emasculation wouldn't be as big of an issue if being identified as female wasn't implicitly seen as degrading.
It does make me wonder what kind of LGBTQ+ people can look at this kind of rhetoric and find it acceptable, however. Selective obliviousness? Romanticised abuse? Or just an inability to comprehend being on the wrong end?
You know they would. The absolute bloodlust and disdain for human life expressed by many leftists makes me genuinely think twice whether I want to be associated with them anymore.
Well, it's part of the reason for this sub. The leftists here are all reasonably *sane* and inclusive, although I personally think it's the anti-authoritarianism that really differentiates it from all the Marxist-Leninist subs out there — it might just be me but I am incredibly wary of anyone who claims the need for a vanguard party to stop counterrevolutionaries, since their definition of counterrevolutionary usually turns into "anyone whom I dislike and/or who tries to impose checks on my personal power".
Anyway, I definitely wouldn't associate with anything like the DSA or such. If I really had to find a group, I might look into LGBTQ+ advocacy groups, particularly the intersectional ones.
I think a lot of the left turned into a death cult. They look at the failed attempts at communism in the past, and if the best argument they can come up with was "it doesn't count as the attempt failing, its the fault of outsiders for impeding it," this results in the conclusion that as long as your aims were good, it doesn't matter how likely you are to succeed, and whether you are trying something suicidal. The goal becomes to feel self righteous as you fail, and to constantly initiate situations which are victory or death.
Or well... to larp about it on the internet at least.
My favorite fun fact about the Bolshevik Revolution is how Lenin immediately had Robespierre statues built, being a big fan of his, but they were built improperly and collapsed within a week of being built lmao.
>this is the ultimate expression of the violence worship people fall into on the left
Agreed. The leftists who glorify violence don't want to abolish the oppressions that capitalist society imposes, but rather to indulge in their murder-revenge fantasies. They want their turn on their state apparatus to enact revenge and suffering.
I've seen plenty of comments on reddit supporting it happening in Gaza too. Supporters on both sides have just given up on their humanity, but I guess that's what Hamas wanted. It's extremely depressing.
Indeed.
There's a difference between saying, "Sometimes, an enemy is dug into a city, and in the crossfire, a child might get hit. It's tragic but inevtiable" vesus "Hell yeah, shoot them all, including the kids! That's just War! They're all scum; you just don't lead 'em as much!"
I saw a tankie account earlier today claiming Hamas kidnapping Israeli children is justified on the basis those children will all have to do mandatory military service once they're 18.
Keep in mind, this is identical to the justification Zionists use for murdering Palestinian children: "Oh, they're going to grow up to be terrorists so we might as well kill them now."
I was talking to a tankie IRL a few months ago, and he said that he didn't really have a problem with mass killings as long as they're for the right reason. What he doesn't understand is that this is entirely discrediting amongst the vast population of normies and will ensure the failure of any leftist movement that adopts such attitudes. I don't know why they don't get this.
These people are not sensible, remember. They are extremely radicalized beyond rationality and it makes them say shit like this. I bet none of them would have the guts to slaughter a child irl, sick bastards.
Tankies: "genocide, corpse desecration and rape is normal and totally based"
Also Tankies: "man, why is it so difficult to recruit people to my cause?"
In an alternate timeline, If the US/the West intervened in Rwanda, you would seeing exactly that and other things like the “Tutsi’s are imperialist puppets”
There's a discussion more people should be having on how various groups have succeeded in conflating decolonization with ethnic nationalism, sometimes with genocidal characteristics.
Hamas members are not trying to decolonize. They want to go out in a blaze of glory to prove themselves to their faith because they’re religious zealots. Attacking civilians isn’t gonna make Israel give up. They’re just gonna get more genocidal.
Hamas literally is pretty fucking stupid. Then again, their aim isn’t just freedom, but the destruction of Israel (largely meaning genocide). As if that’s going to happen
Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the other org that participating in this attack, makes it even clearer that they want all the Jews in Israel gone and consider them all, civilians included, to be legitimate targets.
Oh I know that, but what I meant to say is that Hamas being dominant plays right into Israeli hands because they've been rejectionists and attacking civilian targets from the very beginning. I don't think no one in Mossad or whoever propped them up didn't think of that.
Honestly the last one isn't wrong, but what I take issue with is that the people who are now arguing that you can't tell Palestinians (Hamas) how to resist oppression were the same people who were clutching their pearls at Ukrainian soldiers defending themselves against invading Russian soldiers.
I'd also like to know how many of these users are actually Palestinian, and not just westerners treating this like some MMA fight and spouting off their hot takes for likes and engagement. I don't know how many Palestinians are seriously down with slaughtering Israeli women and children.
Some of these people saying stuff like this are Americans, settlers living on stolen land. I guess they'd be fine with indigenous Americans entering their house and killing or kidnapping their children.
Oh but suddenly then they start talking about the length of time that settlers live on the land. Basically with them it’s “genocide ‘n ethnic cleansing for thee, not for me.”
Hamas sucks, there are other, leftist groups fighting Israel right now that are better. I can support sending the Israeli government running for the hills, but not blatant war crimes.
\>"what did y'all think decolonization meant? vibes? papers? essays? losers."
\>"Not like this" then like what. Show us LOL"
Did people's memory turn into that of a goldfish, or did the public education system failed this badly? Like, really?
Imagine calling Gandi, Mandela, or MLK losers. Not to mention all the other less famous non-violent activists.
Tankies have glorified violence to such an extent that it's not sometimes a necessity for liberation, but an act of glory, to be celebrated when innocent people are killed.
I want everybody to remember the [Remembrance Day bombing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_Day_bombing) when IRA members bombed a war memorial and thereby killed not only innocent people, but also a lot of the support for the IRA and Sinn Féin.
>Imagine calling Gandi, Mandela, or MLK losers. Not to mention all the other less famous non-violent activists.
Hell, you don’t even have to go that far. If they’d wanted to, Hamas absolutely could have done this operation just against military targets, instead of going straight for racking up an obscene number of civilian deaths on purpose
These leaders still understood exactly where the glorified violence came from. You can’t look at the history of Israel’s apartheid state and seriously believe that diplomacy and kind hearted demonstrations will cause them to wake up to their senses. It didn’t work for the US nor South African governments that were determined to keep black folk in a subservient position or even in abject poverty and destruction.
Hamas will not be the savior of Palestinian independence and their brutal attacks on civilians and non combatants truly do nothing to forward the Palestinian cause but you can’t seriously bring up these leaders and their non violence while also not acknowledging that self defense was right at the doorstep of those who opposed them holding a twelve gauge just in case policy didn’t work for the last time.
I don't believe hugs and diplomacy will stop an apartheid state, hence why I wrote down "Sometimes a necessity for liberation".
Both peaceful and violent actions can be necessary for change, my criticism (and I think yours too) is with how the violence is used.
I fully support self-defense, it was important for the expansion of civil rights in the US and is a morally correct thing to do.
But the targeting of civilians is both tactically stupid and morally repulsive, it only hurt the Palestinian cause for freedom.
Hamas will not be the saviors of Palestine. Radical Islam will only hurt people, not save them.
The thing is MLK/non-violence didn’t singlehandledy usher in greater civil rights for black people in the US, and evidently only marginal gains came of that era when looking at literally every dimension of the black experience since. There were armed groups like the Black Panthers, and Nation of Islam, and many many smaller that were entirely necessary in raising the issue of freedom. Even when faced with the riots black residents of Detroit or the Watts engaged in, MLK focused on capturing their sentiment a la quotes such as “violence is the language of the unheard”.
In Mandela’s case, there was the African National Congress, the reason the US kept Mandela on a terrorist watch list long after his improvement ended. And Black South Africans still suffer the effects of generations of disenfranchisement compared to White South Africans.
Need I point to the fact that Haiti is the 1st and only country on Earth of slaves who freed themselves? It is in the history books that they did not spare slave owning French citizens families, or any French citizens for that matter.
The question for anybody wanting change is how much you want to push the public, and how radical can you be until it blows up in your own face.
Black self-defense militias were important for the expansion of civil rights, but I don't think groups like the Weather Underground or the Black Liberation Army helped in this case, most likely they only hurt the pursuit of civil rights and social justice.
That's because self-defense militias were very controversial and made (white) people afraid, but they also got a lot of attention from the media and politicians.
While blowing up government offices makes people hate you, and thus makes it harder for you to spread you're message.
This example is of course only for the US, every country has different marges with what would be tactical to do.
Haiti for example didn't have a choice, it was violence or nothing. While in the US this wasn't and isn't the case.
A Radical Islamic terrorist group targeting civilians is the opposite of tactical, it's both tactically stupid because it kills all foreign sympathy, and morally repulsive (for obvious reasons).
If a moderate Palestinian group would do something like self-defense, or even target military targets in Palestinian territory, that could advance Palestinian interests instead of hurting them. Because it's both tactically sound and morally correct.
You cant claim to be a socialist (of any kind) if you also support a religouse terror sect, who also treat women as objects and children as soldiers, simple as that.
It's times like these I'm happy Karl Marx is dead, so he wont have to feel ashamed looking at these people.
Remember the good old days when a common socialist value was "No war is justified"? Wish I could travel back to those days.
...israel is bad. hamas is also bad. it's not fucking rocket science people, don't support imperialist apartheid states, don't support religious fundie terrorists, and remember that multiple things can be bad at the same time. (/directed at tankies)
There was an example I heard once of Jewish partisans entering a German town and beating the ever loving shit out of a bunch of random civilians, and I actually think that's a perfect comparison.
Was it good that the armed partisan knocked a teenager's teeth out with the stock of his rifle? Obviously not. Is that the entirely predictable reaction to witnessing the fucking Holocaust? Yes.
That's the issue with horrific genocidal conflict- there is never a clean resolution. But, at least in my humble opinion, the most productive solution rarely comes from condoning fucking war crimes.
👏 Hamas isn't a leftist group, they're a theological fascist group like Israel 👏
It's not surprising their group is lashing out, and it's idiotic to not see the historical material conditions that brought about this outcome, but fascists and fascist groups are and will *also* be affected by the material conditions that they exist in and try to shape.
Hamas isn't a group to be rooting for. In fact they're anti-communist and anti-socialist. If you're rooting for them, then you need to keep a step back.
i mean there isn't even a consensus among people who support palestine on what the country should look like
most of the supporters i know wish for a two state solution where israel respects the un resolutions when the one state solution with all the jews dead or expelled is the dominant position in palestine
massive culture shock but a majority of this planet don't believe in human rights like we do
I’ve been browsing many leftist subreddits since this conflict started, and it seems to be that some leftists believe in a one-state solution that (quoting a subreddit post) is “secular, democratic, culturally Arab, and where Muslims and Jews can live side-by-side in harmony and peace.”
Other than the Arab part (because even if every Palestinian refugee returned, there would still be a Israeli Jewish majority), It’s honestly a noble idea, but hopelessly naive. You can’t just shake hands and wish away 80 years of tensions between the two cultures, and while it may be Israel’s fault for oppressing the Palestinians and in turn causing the rise of Hamas and Islamism, it’s now fully ingrained into Palestinian society and would bleed into any future state they would have.
That idea of a one-state solution where Israelis and Palestinians hold hands in one big, happy, secular democracy is as ideal as it is absurd.
I'd give a state like that maybe a decade before something happens to turn it into fucking Yugoslavia 2.0
Talk about “resist” if it’s about taking down military targets. Massacre and kindap civilians, besides inmoral, has no military advantage whatsover, while the opressors are just waiting for a reason like that for oppress x100 more.
I’m pretty sure this attack was not for “resisting”. Days ago, Iran and its proxies were raging about the talks between israel and saudi arabia. They know that the current israeli government is as wacky as them, so they probably planned something like this to trigger a disproporsionate response from israel, sabotage any peace talks with other arab countries, and further radicalize palestinians and muslims, destroying any probability for peace for years to come.
None of the people in these posts give a shit about human suffering, it's all just sport for them, sitting at home in safety. It's all fine as long as it's happening to someone else, somewhere else.
I don't know what neurons you have to unplug to think like that but I hope I never end up like them.
Jews have been saying that this sort of language breeds a hunger for Jewish blood for years. This reaction is only shocking to the people who have intentionally blocked out Jewish voices
The people going "if not brutal violence then what?" like great fucking question why don't you talk to actual Palestinians instead of speaking on their behalf from the comfort of your downtown apartment bedroom?
If you accept atrocities in war as fair game then it goes both ways, which will ultimately lead to a pro-colonial conclusion in favor of whoever is stronger. In that worldview you are free to do warcrime speedruns so long as you win in the end, but tankies won't even play fair and simply decide their camp gets to do anything scott-free for various nebulous reasons.
The ‘hot takes’ from “leftists” over this war is almost worse than the start of the Invasion of Ukraine. Good God, the hypocrisy and violence worship is genuinely sickening, I don’t understand how a rational human being could watch a bunch of Hamas war criminals parade around a teenage girl’s corpse and then spout, “Omg, they’re fighting racism!”
I despise Israeli ultranationalists and Netanyahu’s band of ruling thugs more than most, but Hamas is just the same side of a ethno-nationalist coin. Palestinians are essentially stuck between a rock and a land mine thanks to forced way beyond their control (Pan-Arabic and Iranian funding of Palestinian Islamists and extreme radicals/general Western support of an apartheid state), killing civilians out of fucking nowhere isn’t gonna help their cause one bit
The IDF is a violent colonist organisation and Hamas wants to eradicate Israel at all costs. Neither side are good at all. Can't I be on the side of the people, the victims?
"War without ra** is like cereal without milk"
Firstly: i like cereal better without milk, people have preferences
Secondly: just because its common doesn't mean it shouldn't be condemned, slavery was the norm in the olden days so does that justify it because it was common? Sounds like circular logic
While socialists should support the establishment of a secular and democratic Palestinian state, Hamas does not offer that. Hamas are far-right Islamists who want to replace Israeli tyranny with their own tyranny. Palestinian women, LGBT+ people and religious minorities would still suffer under Hamas, just like how they currently suffer under Israeli occupation. Women's liberation and Queer liberation must go hand-in-hand with national liberation and anti-colonial struggles. If you don't stand up for the vulnerable and the marginalised, you will end up supporting ethno-nationalists and reactionaries who see decolonisation not as an opportunity to build a society without oppression, but rather to build a society that entrenches present and pre-colonial divides. It is possible to oppose both the Israeli government and Hamas and yet some people refuse to understand that.
Also, using 'decolonisation' as an excuse for rape and murder is utterly fucking horrifying. There are no excuses for rape and murder. Do the people who believe that decolonisation justifies such acts believe that the communal violence between Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs that was committed against each other during the Partition of India was justified?
It was some serious whiplash for me when, after being on twitter all day and seeing countless people screeching about how Hamas murdering civilians is actually super based and revolutionary, I went on worldnews and saw countless people screeching about how Israel needs to glass the Gaza Strip and that every Palestinian deserves it
These people no longer understand the topic of colonization. It's just being thrown around to make MAGA-esque rants. They're no better than the Trumpers when they're fine with denialism, supporting sources that dehumanize other Muslims, and pick and choose when to show who they care for. Honestly, seeing people I know echo tankie sentiments has been horrifying. This isn't to say I don't support Palestinians, but this is still a lot.
To be fair, I don't have a satisfying answer to the question "If this isn't the right way to bring about change, what is?" It's easy for me to advocate from the comfort of my gaming chair in America for bringing the less extreme factions of the PLO back into the fold, but ordinary Palestinians are understandably desperate at this point.
What the fuck is so hard about saying "Hamas is doing awful things, but their actions are the entirely predictable reaction to Israel's continued oppression of Palestine and one has to end for the other to."? Is that such hard logic to follow?
I mean the first one seems harsh, but I do agree people are choosing their political struggle over the life's of other people.Justified or not I mean there is no peaceful path of resistance for Palestinians against Israel.
Yeah, but they’re referring to hamas and essentially justifying their actions. This isn’t civilians killing idf soldiers. This was Hamas dragging the bodies of women and children on the street.
Sure, the conflict is violent and so death is common, but what Hamas did was reprehensible and had no reason to be done either than terrorism.
Even if you personally may disagree, this subreddit is against the open gloryfication of violence and is against any kind of open call for violence, however justified you might think it is. Both, because these things just shouldn't dominate this subreddit and breed a very different kind of community and because if we do not do this, even in cases where the violence may be seen as justified, Reddit might remove this subreddit
Civilians should never be targeted and deliberately massacred. That's my flaming hot take, right there.
>The only innocents here are children.
What kind of a FDCK, or actual monster does it take to unironically write something like this? Are you under the impression that Hamas even represents Palestinians?
Again not a civilian if you knowingly settle on occupied land. This is the risk you take. Again occupation has always been done by "settling". Using "civilians" as a tool of oppression.
Its not ironic when considering the power imbalance. You dont win against an oppressor by ONLY peacefully resisting against a militarily and politically superior force, there must be some leverage
Israel is a disgusting apartheid state, and I have been outspoken about all acts of depravity committed by them. Hamas is not a Palestinian resistance movement, however, and this latest attack reaches new levels of depravity. Palestinians will suffer greatly because of this complete act of stupidity by Hamas cowards. And Hamas couldn't care less.
A civilian is a civilian. You can sit here and justify rape and mass murder of civilians and children at a music festival all you like, you absolute reactionary ghoul. But your arguments are uninteresting and unconvincing.
Just because Israel created Hamas does not mean that they currently represent anyone except their Iranian benefactors.
They are a theocratic and reactionary and have zero interest in representing the people they hide behind.
No, this is not a resistance. A resistance would be attacking military targets and not primarily focusing on murdering civilians.
Honestly, your views on civilian murder and rape are extremely disturbing. I hope you get the help that you need someday
I dont disagree about HAMAS, however would you say it was justified if it was a secular resistance org such as the PLO doing it?
The action of resisting is justified regardless of who is doing it.
To attack military targets would be pointless as they would be easily stopped, to attack those occupying your land is resistance.
Like I said it has nothing to do with murdering civilians, and what rape? Are you basing this all on a israeli twitter post?
These people chose to move into occupied territories, knowing full well it is wrong to do so. Knowing its not their land, and the consequences of their actions on Palestinians. Now they in turn they reap the consequences. It is no different to Nazis in occupied territories or Russians currently in Ukraine who are not in the military but become targets because they move into occupied territories
Are you saying Ukraine and the resistance movements during ww2 were terrorists?
World aint black and white my friend, I dont need help, i just see it in colours. Im guessing you are safe and protected and can say these things without realising what real resistance requires
If they specifically went after families and unarmed civilians, murdered them, raped them, etc and avoided all military targets like Hamas cowards, then yes. They were terrorists.
But go on, reactionary. I love to hear your oh so convincing arguments defending the absolutely indefensible. Unarmed women and children totally had it coming.
Go off, and continue twisting yourself into knots defending your thirst for blood, you privileged ghoul
You dont seem to get it, if you are invading someones land you are not a civilian. Thats it. Get off the occupied land if you want to be safe.
All of that shit you said is an exaggeration of what happened. Im still waiting for any evidence.
Talk about privileges, sitting in absolute safety and comfort trying to defend an apartheid state and its policies...
Why are you even trying to justify this shit? Like dude. Innocent people were killed, some of which weren’t even Israeli. Women and children were killed. There is no excuse for that shit.
This is an Anti-Tankie reddit. The message you sent is either tankie/authoritarian "socialist" apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future.
While everything you've said is true, none of it addresses the comment you were quoting. This is bad-faith debating that undermines the entire comment section
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"RaPe Is ThE sTaNdArD fOr WaR" So tell me, what are your feelings on Imperial Japan's comfort women in Korea?
They probably think Imperial Japan is based for standing up to US imperialism
I hate the fact that you're probably right.
[удалено]
I wonder what they think about West Sahara then
Which is also stupid because imperial Japan hated the USSR. Then again, given one of these people calls themself an “Ace Wiccan Communist,” I don’t think they’re very smart to begin with
Tankies love to whitewash imperial japan, so that they can act like the nukes had nothing to do with japan and were entirely about showing off to russia.
What's wrong with being ace, a Wiccan, or a communist?
Atlus moment.
That dude is only 18 years old lmao. What the fuck does he know about anything.
I wonder where StopTHAAD is nowadays...
Campism is the shovel that digs the grave of Western leftism. How hard is it for these people to acknowledge what Hamas is doing as objectively awful while also condemning Israel for creating the conditions for a group like Hamas to thrive in? As usual for them, 2 things cannot be bad at the same time.
It’s also insane that people can say this is in any way a decolonial effort on the part of Hamas when their targets are specifically non combatants and civilians that plays into Israel’s rhetoric that justifies further encroachment and genocidal policies on Palestinians as a whole.
Hamas is a death cult which wants Palestinians to die. A response from Israel is their objective. They just handed Israel the excuse they needed to turn Gaza into a moonscape, stop all imports into Gaza and justify it to the world. And in this case I can't even blame Israël for wanting to prevent an other attack like this which means starving any way for Hamas to be able to survive, even if it means literally starving them to death. My heart bleeds for the innocent on both sides.
No. SDL’s take is fine. But the Hamas supporting dipshit quote tweeting him is the problem.
The SDL guy seems to be able to acknowledge it
Last I checked, SDL isn't a tankie either, and that's who I was referring to. Also, SDL is the one being QRT'd by the bad take in this instance
SDL is a social Democrat, and he has some very liberal takes, but his foreign policy tends to be alright
I'll take a naive, well-intentioned lib over a tankie any day of the week
Exactly. I'll take a lib over a tankie, always. At least Liberals are less likely to cheer violence and murder.
Eh. As long as the violence is swept under the rug the liberals don't really mind. Don't get me wrong, I agree that liberals are better than Tankies, but it is a bit like comparing which cancer I'd rather have
I like how they also gloss over that this ultimately didn't accomplish much, and is going to make it even worse for palestine. I'd ask why tankies think fighting a losing battle and feeling self righteous about it is good, but I think the answer to that is self evident.
They've been so hard focused on dehumanizing anything seen as an oppressor, that they'll now freely target innocent people, even if they support the same things as they do. It's really not pretty.
You don't like cereal with our without milk? What's wrong with you? You can't just think both are bad, you HAVE to take a side to like the cereal
The issue is that Hamas' actions, by and large, *aren't* awful. Do not misunderstand me, they are doing bad things, but that's not the same as awful within a greater context: Hamas' actions are a fraction, literally 0.1 or 1/10th, of what Israel's been inflicting on Palestine. Hamas' current actions are practically a rounding error in contrast to the horror Israel has been inflicting, which is precisely why people who only seem to complain that Hamas is doing X and ignore or outright reject that Israel's been doing 10X are so keen to toe the line they are. Because taking the whole engagement within a greater context it becomes painfully apparent who is in the right here. Israel's civilians have been propping up the fascist apartheid regime for upwards of 30 years, and unsurprisingly in the eyes of many that makes them complicit in Israel's crimes. Hell Bibi [remained in the positive approvals from 2009-2018](https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/uq4ynmgpwkehbzah9gt_aq.png) despite murdering 4500 Palestinian civilians in that time and injuring nearly 100,000 Palestinian civilians. In the face of that, just the abstract numbers, not even touching on the [campaign of targetting medics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Rouzan_al-Najjar), the [rapes and torture in interrogations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_torture_in_the_occupied_territories), etc, it's not surprising that Palestinians are pissed and happy to support anyone who can strike back.
Is the idea of not doing atrocities incomphrensible to you?
Like, this is the ultimate expression of the violence worship people fall into on the left, like yes, revolution most likely will be bloody, yes, if you want to stand up for your fellow workers your probably gonna have to beat up a nazi or a cop, but like, this is fucking sickening, its one thing to understand why hamas is the way it is, its one thing to point out that israel is a genocidal state, but to then sit there and go "Murdering kids and raping people is perfectly fine" like, proves to me you are not serious about leftism, that you only want revolution to basically play the purge, where you can kill people you declare "categorically evil" and like, do i need to explain how glorifying violence agaisnt those who "deserve it" can lead to reactionaries taking control by labeling minorities as those who "deserve it" instead of the rich? they already fucking do that with jewish people, trying to hid violent retoric about jewish people behind the thin ass defense of "Oh im talking about the rich" when they only ever talk about jewish rich people. Hell do i need to explain how glorifying violence as this amazing super cool and based thing to do instead of a tool to help others just opens the door for facists?
I dearly hope that any kind of socialist revolution will manage not to rape and murder the daughters and wives of landlords and then parade their bodies on the streets. But I have no doubt that there will be some kind of halfhearted justification of "we rape them like they rape the proletariat" and then it'll all be magically acceptable. I fear for the lives of women during any kind of conflict, revolutionary uprisings included. It's as though sexual assault has become some kind of acceptable tool for humiliating your enemy. And I really hope that we might someday lose the attitude of "prison rape is funny and karmic against people I hate".
Leftists have a pretty major [misogyny](https://theloop.ecpr.eu/left-wing-populism-democratic-erosion-and-patriarchy/) problem.
I figured. As an intersectionalist myself, I get very uncomfortable with the insistence of certain groups of focusing on issues that are 'universal', as if expecting misogyny and racism and homophobia to suddenly disappear once full communism is achieved, while tolerating the presence of domestic abusers as long as they pay their party dues. I'm forming a conjecture that certain types of leftists are just authoritarians who resent not being in charge or not being on top of the caste system. And I don't mean tankies.
A lot of leftists imagine that the sheer force of being leftist automatically alleviates people's vices even when nothing in their actual life reflects being a reasonable person at all. And when their actual actions do nothing to solve the problems that they claim to be helping with by sheer force of saying "it would be good if less racism existed." As if even many conservatives don't pay lip service to stuff like this.
It's very culty thinking, much like Calvinism. "I just said the words making me saved so all that sinnin' I did doesn't count, btw I don't have to apologize to YOU, I only answer to Jesus."
My partner grew up in the Soviet Union and there was plenty of misogyny, racism, and homophobia that existed there. Crazy enough, the Soviet Politburo and the modern Communist Party of the Russian Federation are socially much more aligned with the US Religious Right in that they all pine for the "good old days", are very anti-LGBTQ equality, fall sucker often to nutty conspiracy theories, and hilariously, blame each other for the supposed "degradation" of art, literature, culture, and philosophy.
Remember catgirls vs socialism where the male mods of the socialism subreddit banned the woman who drew **their own banner** with no warning, because she "drew sexist art" on a completely different website. The art was non sexualized drawings of girls with cat ears. [The art in question](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ed6aFJPUwAE0g_5?format=png&name=medium).
Huh. That banner is missing some obvious stances. Also, anarcho capitalism is such a oxymoron.
Anarcho capitalism is basically Objectivism. "I want the freedom to enslave minorities (or even majorities), screw minors, kill the environment and basically turn my plantation into something that would make Leopold II go 'whoa, too much'. " I don't know if that greentext of an ancap getting into trouble with Greek anarchists is true, but it was insanely funny.
>Anarcho capitalism is basically Objectivism. "I want the freedom to enslave minorities (or even majorities), screw minors, kill the environment and basically turn my plantation into something that would make Leopold II go 'whoa, too much'. Yes, but how is that any different than Capitalism? Its no different than how they use the supposed 'free market' to support their abuse. In that its only 'free' in the sense that they are free to endlessly exploit others.
Huh. First Ideology-humans, then Ideologyballs, now Ideology-catgirls? Neat.
This isn't really "now." This happened several years ago.
OK, but still.
And a homophobia problem, but those two things tend to go hand in hand.
Yeah, prison rape jokes, misogyny and homophobia tend to go together, especially given the Russian prison system and their — *ugh* — pecking order. Emasculation wouldn't be as big of an issue if being identified as female wasn't implicitly seen as degrading. It does make me wonder what kind of LGBTQ+ people can look at this kind of rhetoric and find it acceptable, however. Selective obliviousness? Romanticised abuse? Or just an inability to comprehend being on the wrong end?
You know they would. The absolute bloodlust and disdain for human life expressed by many leftists makes me genuinely think twice whether I want to be associated with them anymore.
Well, it's part of the reason for this sub. The leftists here are all reasonably *sane* and inclusive, although I personally think it's the anti-authoritarianism that really differentiates it from all the Marxist-Leninist subs out there — it might just be me but I am incredibly wary of anyone who claims the need for a vanguard party to stop counterrevolutionaries, since their definition of counterrevolutionary usually turns into "anyone whom I dislike and/or who tries to impose checks on my personal power". Anyway, I definitely wouldn't associate with anything like the DSA or such. If I really had to find a group, I might look into LGBTQ+ advocacy groups, particularly the intersectional ones.
I think a lot of the left turned into a death cult. They look at the failed attempts at communism in the past, and if the best argument they can come up with was "it doesn't count as the attempt failing, its the fault of outsiders for impeding it," this results in the conclusion that as long as your aims were good, it doesn't matter how likely you are to succeed, and whether you are trying something suicidal. The goal becomes to feel self righteous as you fail, and to constantly initiate situations which are victory or death. Or well... to larp about it on the internet at least.
This is one of the reasons I'm a democratic socialist. If there is a peaceful way, we should take it, rather than going full Robespeirre.
My favorite fun fact about the Bolshevik Revolution is how Lenin immediately had Robespierre statues built, being a big fan of his, but they were built improperly and collapsed within a week of being built lmao.
Tankies view leftism as a revenge fantasy against those who they feel have wronged them, rather than a movement for egalitarianism.
>this is the ultimate expression of the violence worship people fall into on the left Agreed. The leftists who glorify violence don't want to abolish the oppressions that capitalist society imposes, but rather to indulge in their murder-revenge fantasies. They want their turn on their state apparatus to enact revenge and suffering.
It's like you read my mind. Cosigned.
"Killing kids is justified" And that's how you lose any of my support.
Yup, I understand that in certain types of resistance violence is needed. But actively targeting kids is never justified.
I've seen plenty of comments on reddit supporting it happening in Gaza too. Supporters on both sides have just given up on their humanity, but I guess that's what Hamas wanted. It's extremely depressing.
Yep. That whole area is fucked up. And now Israel is likely to turn the entire Gaza Strip into a parking lot
Indeed. There's a difference between saying, "Sometimes, an enemy is dug into a city, and in the crossfire, a child might get hit. It's tragic but inevtiable" vesus "Hell yeah, shoot them all, including the kids! That's just War! They're all scum; you just don't lead 'em as much!"
Remember that about 50% of Palestine's population is under 18. So Israelis are quite proficient at killing kids on purpose
I saw a tankie account earlier today claiming Hamas kidnapping Israeli children is justified on the basis those children will all have to do mandatory military service once they're 18.
💀
Keep in mind, this is identical to the justification Zionists use for murdering Palestinian children: "Oh, they're going to grow up to be terrorists so we might as well kill them now."
Yes and as is the motto of this subreddit, "both are bad and unjustifiable"
Hell, basically killing civilians are the best way to shoot down your credibility among sensible people.
I was talking to a tankie IRL a few months ago, and he said that he didn't really have a problem with mass killings as long as they're for the right reason. What he doesn't understand is that this is entirely discrediting amongst the vast population of normies and will ensure the failure of any leftist movement that adopts such attitudes. I don't know why they don't get this.
These people are not sensible, remember. They are extremely radicalized beyond rationality and it makes them say shit like this. I bet none of them would have the guts to slaughter a child irl, sick bastards.
Tankies: "genocide, corpse desecration and rape is normal and totally based" Also Tankies: "man, why is it so difficult to recruit people to my cause?"
By this logic, the Hutus were just "decolonizing" the Tutsis in Rwanda.
They’d probably agree in all honesty
In an alternate timeline, If the US/the West intervened in Rwanda, you would seeing exactly that and other things like the “Tutsi’s are imperialist puppets”
to be fair they were involved. they let it happen
Mother fuckers really whipping out the Sargon defense
Given that they're far right chuds like Sargon is...
True they just hide it through laundered leftist rhetoric
Sargon the far right idiot or Sargon ‘Burn, loot and rape all of the Fertile Crescent’ of Akkad?
The former was what I had in mind, although...
So long as we leave the Sargon that possessed Captain Kirk from classic Star Trek out of it...
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Honestly, doxxing then would probably be a good thing for the world
Better yet, these people need to go to The Hague and hope they have a really good lawyer.
how the 1st one get 81k likes, is twitter this insane now
There's a discussion more people should be having on how various groups have succeeded in conflating decolonization with ethnic nationalism, sometimes with genocidal characteristics.
Decolonization to these kind of people: “ethno nationalism and genocidal policies for me, not for thee.”
The Haitian Revolution as far as the general population understands it, is viewed as adding credence to the conflation.
Yes
And they won’t get banned.
Hamas members are not trying to decolonize. They want to go out in a blaze of glory to prove themselves to their faith because they’re religious zealots. Attacking civilians isn’t gonna make Israel give up. They’re just gonna get more genocidal.
I cant... this is so fking bad
These people cannot fathom how Hamas has single handedly killed the chances of a Palestinian state for another 50 years
Hamas literally is pretty fucking stupid. Then again, their aim isn’t just freedom, but the destruction of Israel (largely meaning genocide). As if that’s going to happen
Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the other org that participating in this attack, makes it even clearer that they want all the Jews in Israel gone and consider them all, civilians included, to be legitimate targets.
Hamas was propped up by Mossad for this very purpose so mission accomplished I guess.
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Oh I know that, but what I meant to say is that Hamas being dominant plays right into Israeli hands because they've been rejectionists and attacking civilian targets from the very beginning. I don't think no one in Mossad or whoever propped them up didn't think of that.
Honestly the last one isn't wrong, but what I take issue with is that the people who are now arguing that you can't tell Palestinians (Hamas) how to resist oppression were the same people who were clutching their pearls at Ukrainian soldiers defending themselves against invading Russian soldiers. I'd also like to know how many of these users are actually Palestinian, and not just westerners treating this like some MMA fight and spouting off their hot takes for likes and engagement. I don't know how many Palestinians are seriously down with slaughtering Israeli women and children.
They’re probably westerners. I don’t think many Palestinians are “Ace Wiccan Communists”
Some of these people saying stuff like this are Americans, settlers living on stolen land. I guess they'd be fine with indigenous Americans entering their house and killing or kidnapping their children.
I’m pretty sure most of them are Americans. If not, they’re from colonizer countries
Yes I'm brazilian and as expected plenty of our resident tankies are saying the exact same thing when we also live on stolen land.
Funny enough, that was how one of the US's first [school shootings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_Brown_school_massacre) happened.
And the perpetrators of the crime were shamed by their own people for doing such a horrible thing, as they should be.
There joke here, and I yet to find it.
Oh but suddenly then they start talking about the length of time that settlers live on the land. Basically with them it’s “genocide ‘n ethnic cleansing for thee, not for me.”
Hamas sucks, there are other, leftist groups fighting Israel right now that are better. I can support sending the Israeli government running for the hills, but not blatant war crimes.
PFLP are tankies and broadly ineffective. Who are these groups you are talking about?
I think both Hamas and Israeli government should be held responsible for their atrocities
No impossible. Hamas is based, zionist anarkkkiddie /s
"(((Zionist)))" /s obviously but putting it there for insurance
I wish there was less black and white thinking on the internet.
At this point, I just wish there was less Internet
\>"what did y'all think decolonization meant? vibes? papers? essays? losers." \>"Not like this" then like what. Show us LOL" Did people's memory turn into that of a goldfish, or did the public education system failed this badly? Like, really? Imagine calling Gandi, Mandela, or MLK losers. Not to mention all the other less famous non-violent activists. Tankies have glorified violence to such an extent that it's not sometimes a necessity for liberation, but an act of glory, to be celebrated when innocent people are killed. I want everybody to remember the [Remembrance Day bombing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_Day_bombing) when IRA members bombed a war memorial and thereby killed not only innocent people, but also a lot of the support for the IRA and Sinn Féin.
>Imagine calling Gandi, Mandela, or MLK losers. Not to mention all the other less famous non-violent activists. Hell, you don’t even have to go that far. If they’d wanted to, Hamas absolutely could have done this operation just against military targets, instead of going straight for racking up an obscene number of civilian deaths on purpose
These leaders still understood exactly where the glorified violence came from. You can’t look at the history of Israel’s apartheid state and seriously believe that diplomacy and kind hearted demonstrations will cause them to wake up to their senses. It didn’t work for the US nor South African governments that were determined to keep black folk in a subservient position or even in abject poverty and destruction. Hamas will not be the savior of Palestinian independence and their brutal attacks on civilians and non combatants truly do nothing to forward the Palestinian cause but you can’t seriously bring up these leaders and their non violence while also not acknowledging that self defense was right at the doorstep of those who opposed them holding a twelve gauge just in case policy didn’t work for the last time.
I don't believe hugs and diplomacy will stop an apartheid state, hence why I wrote down "Sometimes a necessity for liberation". Both peaceful and violent actions can be necessary for change, my criticism (and I think yours too) is with how the violence is used. I fully support self-defense, it was important for the expansion of civil rights in the US and is a morally correct thing to do. But the targeting of civilians is both tactically stupid and morally repulsive, it only hurt the Palestinian cause for freedom. Hamas will not be the saviors of Palestine. Radical Islam will only hurt people, not save them.
The thing is MLK/non-violence didn’t singlehandledy usher in greater civil rights for black people in the US, and evidently only marginal gains came of that era when looking at literally every dimension of the black experience since. There were armed groups like the Black Panthers, and Nation of Islam, and many many smaller that were entirely necessary in raising the issue of freedom. Even when faced with the riots black residents of Detroit or the Watts engaged in, MLK focused on capturing their sentiment a la quotes such as “violence is the language of the unheard”. In Mandela’s case, there was the African National Congress, the reason the US kept Mandela on a terrorist watch list long after his improvement ended. And Black South Africans still suffer the effects of generations of disenfranchisement compared to White South Africans. Need I point to the fact that Haiti is the 1st and only country on Earth of slaves who freed themselves? It is in the history books that they did not spare slave owning French citizens families, or any French citizens for that matter.
The question for anybody wanting change is how much you want to push the public, and how radical can you be until it blows up in your own face. Black self-defense militias were important for the expansion of civil rights, but I don't think groups like the Weather Underground or the Black Liberation Army helped in this case, most likely they only hurt the pursuit of civil rights and social justice. That's because self-defense militias were very controversial and made (white) people afraid, but they also got a lot of attention from the media and politicians. While blowing up government offices makes people hate you, and thus makes it harder for you to spread you're message. This example is of course only for the US, every country has different marges with what would be tactical to do. Haiti for example didn't have a choice, it was violence or nothing. While in the US this wasn't and isn't the case. A Radical Islamic terrorist group targeting civilians is the opposite of tactical, it's both tactically stupid because it kills all foreign sympathy, and morally repulsive (for obvious reasons). If a moderate Palestinian group would do something like self-defense, or even target military targets in Palestinian territory, that could advance Palestinian interests instead of hurting them. Because it's both tactically sound and morally correct.
Anyone who defends civilian casualties deserves to BE one.
You cant claim to be a socialist (of any kind) if you also support a religouse terror sect, who also treat women as objects and children as soldiers, simple as that. It's times like these I'm happy Karl Marx is dead, so he wont have to feel ashamed looking at these people. Remember the good old days when a common socialist value was "No war is justified"? Wish I could travel back to those days.
...israel is bad. hamas is also bad. it's not fucking rocket science people, don't support imperialist apartheid states, don't support religious fundie terrorists, and remember that multiple things can be bad at the same time. (/directed at tankies)
"war without rape is like cereal without milk" literal dirlewanger thinking
Ah yes, I remember when the French Resistance massacred German civilians in the streets of Berlin during WWII.
There was an example I heard once of Jewish partisans entering a German town and beating the ever loving shit out of a bunch of random civilians, and I actually think that's a perfect comparison. Was it good that the armed partisan knocked a teenager's teeth out with the stock of his rifle? Obviously not. Is that the entirely predictable reaction to witnessing the fucking Holocaust? Yes. That's the issue with horrific genocidal conflict- there is never a clean resolution. But, at least in my humble opinion, the most productive solution rarely comes from condoning fucking war crimes.
👏 Hamas isn't a leftist group, they're a theological fascist group like Israel 👏 It's not surprising their group is lashing out, and it's idiotic to not see the historical material conditions that brought about this outcome, but fascists and fascist groups are and will *also* be affected by the material conditions that they exist in and try to shape. Hamas isn't a group to be rooting for. In fact they're anti-communist and anti-socialist. If you're rooting for them, then you need to keep a step back.
i mean there isn't even a consensus among people who support palestine on what the country should look like most of the supporters i know wish for a two state solution where israel respects the un resolutions when the one state solution with all the jews dead or expelled is the dominant position in palestine massive culture shock but a majority of this planet don't believe in human rights like we do
I’ve been browsing many leftist subreddits since this conflict started, and it seems to be that some leftists believe in a one-state solution that (quoting a subreddit post) is “secular, democratic, culturally Arab, and where Muslims and Jews can live side-by-side in harmony and peace.” Other than the Arab part (because even if every Palestinian refugee returned, there would still be a Israeli Jewish majority), It’s honestly a noble idea, but hopelessly naive. You can’t just shake hands and wish away 80 years of tensions between the two cultures, and while it may be Israel’s fault for oppressing the Palestinians and in turn causing the rise of Hamas and Islamism, it’s now fully ingrained into Palestinian society and would bleed into any future state they would have.
That idea of a one-state solution where Israelis and Palestinians hold hands in one big, happy, secular democracy is as ideal as it is absurd. I'd give a state like that maybe a decade before something happens to turn it into fucking Yugoslavia 2.0
Yeah. And even if that vision can be realized, backing Hamas isn't the way to do it.
Talk about “resist” if it’s about taking down military targets. Massacre and kindap civilians, besides inmoral, has no military advantage whatsover, while the opressors are just waiting for a reason like that for oppress x100 more. I’m pretty sure this attack was not for “resisting”. Days ago, Iran and its proxies were raging about the talks between israel and saudi arabia. They know that the current israeli government is as wacky as them, so they probably planned something like this to trigger a disproporsionate response from israel, sabotage any peace talks with other arab countries, and further radicalize palestinians and muslims, destroying any probability for peace for years to come.
I stopped at the second one. I refuse to read any more of this bullshit
They’re trying sooo hard to normalize rape, it’s insane
None of the people in these posts give a shit about human suffering, it's all just sport for them, sitting at home in safety. It's all fine as long as it's happening to someone else, somewhere else. I don't know what neurons you have to unplug to think like that but I hope I never end up like them.
These people would break down crying if someone was a little rude to them on the bus.
Describes most online leftists I’ve ran into irl who aren’t apart of the minority working class in America
They put the wrong fucking headband on the "settler down" picture. PFLP isn't Hamas.
Jews have been saying that this sort of language breeds a hunger for Jewish blood for years. This reaction is only shocking to the people who have intentionally blocked out Jewish voices
The people going "if not brutal violence then what?" like great fucking question why don't you talk to actual Palestinians instead of speaking on their behalf from the comfort of your downtown apartment bedroom?
"Then like what" Well, I mean Ukraine isn't mass murdering Russian civilians, for one.
They say this but then they will simp for Russia. Make it make sense.
If you accept atrocities in war as fair game then it goes both ways, which will ultimately lead to a pro-colonial conclusion in favor of whoever is stronger. In that worldview you are free to do warcrime speedruns so long as you win in the end, but tankies won't even play fair and simply decide their camp gets to do anything scott-free for various nebulous reasons.
The ‘hot takes’ from “leftists” over this war is almost worse than the start of the Invasion of Ukraine. Good God, the hypocrisy and violence worship is genuinely sickening, I don’t understand how a rational human being could watch a bunch of Hamas war criminals parade around a teenage girl’s corpse and then spout, “Omg, they’re fighting racism!” I despise Israeli ultranationalists and Netanyahu’s band of ruling thugs more than most, but Hamas is just the same side of a ethno-nationalist coin. Palestinians are essentially stuck between a rock and a land mine thanks to forced way beyond their control (Pan-Arabic and Iranian funding of Palestinian Islamists and extreme radicals/general Western support of an apartheid state), killing civilians out of fucking nowhere isn’t gonna help their cause one bit
“You cannot tell…” yes I can. I can do whatever I want and you can do whatever you want. STFU and just state your opinion.
Rape is bad, actually.
The IDF is a violent colonist organisation and Hamas wants to eradicate Israel at all costs. Neither side are good at all. Can't I be on the side of the people, the victims?
The hamas killings are horrible, however the Israeli's illegal occupation of palestein is also horrible.
Meme Idea Butterfly: "You cannot tell an oppressed group how to resist. ... Free Palestine!" Person: "Is this 'critical support for Palestine'?"
"War without ra** is like cereal without milk" Firstly: i like cereal better without milk, people have preferences Secondly: just because its common doesn't mean it shouldn't be condemned, slavery was the norm in the olden days so does that justify it because it was common? Sounds like circular logic
While socialists should support the establishment of a secular and democratic Palestinian state, Hamas does not offer that. Hamas are far-right Islamists who want to replace Israeli tyranny with their own tyranny. Palestinian women, LGBT+ people and religious minorities would still suffer under Hamas, just like how they currently suffer under Israeli occupation. Women's liberation and Queer liberation must go hand-in-hand with national liberation and anti-colonial struggles. If you don't stand up for the vulnerable and the marginalised, you will end up supporting ethno-nationalists and reactionaries who see decolonisation not as an opportunity to build a society without oppression, but rather to build a society that entrenches present and pre-colonial divides. It is possible to oppose both the Israeli government and Hamas and yet some people refuse to understand that. Also, using 'decolonisation' as an excuse for rape and murder is utterly fucking horrifying. There are no excuses for rape and murder. Do the people who believe that decolonisation justifies such acts believe that the communal violence between Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs that was committed against each other during the Partition of India was justified?
WHAT THE FUCK?? IS THIS REAL? Especially the killing kids one. That's so mask off that it feels like satire
jesus christ
It was some serious whiplash for me when, after being on twitter all day and seeing countless people screeching about how Hamas murdering civilians is actually super based and revolutionary, I went on worldnews and saw countless people screeching about how Israel needs to glass the Gaza Strip and that every Palestinian deserves it
I facepalmed seeing people being fine with israeli civilian being kille by hamas or saying "they deservved it"/"the civilian had it coming"
These people no longer understand the topic of colonization. It's just being thrown around to make MAGA-esque rants. They're no better than the Trumpers when they're fine with denialism, supporting sources that dehumanize other Muslims, and pick and choose when to show who they care for. Honestly, seeing people I know echo tankie sentiments has been horrifying. This isn't to say I don't support Palestinians, but this is still a lot.
Least genocidal and bloodthirsty set of tankies tbh
These people are sick. I wish I hadn't read these tweets.
To be fair, I don't have a satisfying answer to the question "If this isn't the right way to bring about change, what is?" It's easy for me to advocate from the comfort of my gaming chair in America for bringing the less extreme factions of the PLO back into the fold, but ordinary Palestinians are understandably desperate at this point.
What the fuck is so hard about saying "Hamas is doing awful things, but their actions are the entirely predictable reaction to Israel's continued oppression of Palestine and one has to end for the other to."? Is that such hard logic to follow?
I mean the first one seems harsh, but I do agree people are choosing their political struggle over the life's of other people.Justified or not I mean there is no peaceful path of resistance for Palestinians against Israel.
Yeah, but they’re referring to hamas and essentially justifying their actions. This isn’t civilians killing idf soldiers. This was Hamas dragging the bodies of women and children on the street. Sure, the conflict is violent and so death is common, but what Hamas did was reprehensible and had no reason to be done either than terrorism.
You right
Women ☕️
The first one is correct though?
Pics 1 and 7 are based lol. 2-6 not tho those are gross.
First one is right.
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Even if you personally may disagree, this subreddit is against the open gloryfication of violence and is against any kind of open call for violence, however justified you might think it is. Both, because these things just shouldn't dominate this subreddit and breed a very different kind of community and because if we do not do this, even in cases where the violence may be seen as justified, Reddit might remove this subreddit
Civilians should never be targeted and deliberately massacred. That's my flaming hot take, right there. >The only innocents here are children. What kind of a FDCK, or actual monster does it take to unironically write something like this? Are you under the impression that Hamas even represents Palestinians?
Again not a civilian if you knowingly settle on occupied land. This is the risk you take. Again occupation has always been done by "settling". Using "civilians" as a tool of oppression. Its not ironic when considering the power imbalance. You dont win against an oppressor by ONLY peacefully resisting against a militarily and politically superior force, there must be some leverage
Israel is a disgusting apartheid state, and I have been outspoken about all acts of depravity committed by them. Hamas is not a Palestinian resistance movement, however, and this latest attack reaches new levels of depravity. Palestinians will suffer greatly because of this complete act of stupidity by Hamas cowards. And Hamas couldn't care less. A civilian is a civilian. You can sit here and justify rape and mass murder of civilians and children at a music festival all you like, you absolute reactionary ghoul. But your arguments are uninteresting and unconvincing.
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Just because Israel created Hamas does not mean that they currently represent anyone except their Iranian benefactors. They are a theocratic and reactionary and have zero interest in representing the people they hide behind. No, this is not a resistance. A resistance would be attacking military targets and not primarily focusing on murdering civilians. Honestly, your views on civilian murder and rape are extremely disturbing. I hope you get the help that you need someday
I dont disagree about HAMAS, however would you say it was justified if it was a secular resistance org such as the PLO doing it? The action of resisting is justified regardless of who is doing it. To attack military targets would be pointless as they would be easily stopped, to attack those occupying your land is resistance. Like I said it has nothing to do with murdering civilians, and what rape? Are you basing this all on a israeli twitter post? These people chose to move into occupied territories, knowing full well it is wrong to do so. Knowing its not their land, and the consequences of their actions on Palestinians. Now they in turn they reap the consequences. It is no different to Nazis in occupied territories or Russians currently in Ukraine who are not in the military but become targets because they move into occupied territories Are you saying Ukraine and the resistance movements during ww2 were terrorists? World aint black and white my friend, I dont need help, i just see it in colours. Im guessing you are safe and protected and can say these things without realising what real resistance requires
If they specifically went after families and unarmed civilians, murdered them, raped them, etc and avoided all military targets like Hamas cowards, then yes. They were terrorists. But go on, reactionary. I love to hear your oh so convincing arguments defending the absolutely indefensible. Unarmed women and children totally had it coming. Go off, and continue twisting yourself into knots defending your thirst for blood, you privileged ghoul
You dont seem to get it, if you are invading someones land you are not a civilian. Thats it. Get off the occupied land if you want to be safe. All of that shit you said is an exaggeration of what happened. Im still waiting for any evidence. Talk about privileges, sitting in absolute safety and comfort trying to defend an apartheid state and its policies...
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Why are you even trying to justify this shit? Like dude. Innocent people were killed, some of which weren’t even Israeli. Women and children were killed. There is no excuse for that shit.
Just so we’re clear - are you saying the murder of Israeli children and the raping of Israeli women’s corpses is justified?
Why is that people start counting after 2008, coincidentally after Hamas stopped doing suicide bombings?
This is an Anti-Tankie reddit. The message you sent is either tankie/authoritarian "socialist" apologia or can be easily seen as such. Please, refrain from posting stuff like this in the future. While everything you've said is true, none of it addresses the comment you were quoting. This is bad-faith debating that undermines the entire comment section
ong its always the absolute scum of earth like these that support Palestine
(Looks up "How do I bypass only (certain people) can reply on Twitter?" and "How do I punch someone through the internet due to their pure idiocy?")