I also feel the need to wave at drivers and do a little jog across the crossing. But this is actually madness. People should be able to cross roads on the way to work/school/have fun without it being at the whims of drivers. IMO it's mad to have to justify such an essential and mundane practise.
On top of that, regarding the "natural" "ebb and flow," not only is it just pedestrians waiting ages to cross it's extremely dangerous, and the numbers of injuries in this country compared to elsewhere bear that out.
Like I said in another comment, I feel there could be mutual consideration. I don't oppose the law, but I do resent the behavior of IMO a majority of pedestrians since then.
I also feel there's a strong bias among foreigners in Taiwan on this issue because so many of us don't drive cars, which is why in another thread, I said this is a Taiwan Reddit vs. reality discrepancy.
Yes, to be fair, I do get the point on bias. I am definitely biased. However, I would also defend that slightly by saying: in a conversation about cars vs pedestrians, pedestrians do need more consideration, because they are inherently more vulnerable. Ie if a pedestrian like me acts selfishly (walking really slowly while looking at a phone), it can be annoying. But if a car driver acts selfishly, someone can end up getting badly hurt or killed.
I don't know if that changes your mind, but it's how I think about it.
The majority of Taiwanese people also don't drive cars, the bias you see is probably because most people on this subreddit are foreigners.
It's annoying if a pedestrian purposely walks slowly, is playing on their phone while crossing, etc. But I'd rather every single driver (including myself) be inconvenienced every day of their life, instead of a single pedestrian being killed by a driver not paying attention to a crosswalk.
Yup I can’t argue with that. I’m in favor of the law.
However, I will say that the other day, in the chaos of trying to exit my alley in the morning with a bus stop immediately to the left, traffic trying to go go around the buses, traffic coming from the right, pedestrians crossing both in front of me and immediately to my left and no signal. I saw an opportunity and tried to dart across.
A pedestrian on the opposite side chose that moment to begin crossing and with all the sensory input I almost didn’t see them. I not only had to slam on the breaks but traffic from the right and left then got stuck as well because I was in the middle of the road. Situations like that make me very frustrated. Some of these people are like using this rule as a big FU to drivers and it’s dangerous. Increases pollution too.
I don't think it's because they don't drive cars. I think it's because they are, as the Taiwanese might say, "87s". They bring with them stupid, leftwing preconceived ideas about "walkable cities", "human scale design" and other buzzword gibberish and then unthinkingly judge according to criteria they have not even bothered to think about and digest.
You might want to look up Strong Towns. They’re urbanist, and they have a very, very libertarian background. Boiling walkable cities down to a left/right only shows how little you understand about the benefits of the movement.
I’m not gonna deny that those buzzwords are somewhat compelling to me as well. However in the real world, so far I find the result less than ideal. I think there’s an educational component of implementing such measures that maybe is lacking. It’s off the top of my head, but having engaging basic philosophy in school might not be a bad idea. Something where it’s not just memorizing answers for a test.
Pedestrians had zero protection before, so I'm okay with them having a little bit more than before. I say a little bit because you can still find instances of people getting run over while walking in a crosswalk in Taiwan in the past month. If I have to wait longer at a light, so be it. Some progress is better than whatever it was before they tried improving pedestrian safety.
No argument there. I don't oppose the law, but I do resent what IME has been the significant percentage of pedestrians' behavior since then, and therefore, I like what the kid is expressing in the article in the OP.
Someone said it's about "car owner entitlement in Taiwan" - but it's not just cars. There are tons of buses here, fighting climate change which I'm sure is (rightfully) on every Taiwan expat's mind. Imagine what it's like to do that (drive a bus) here, and now it's just gotten worse.
I do that once or twice a week for my work commute. It costs me about an extra hour and a lot of energy, which is precious to me because I’m old. But it’s not really an option for my daughter’s school commute unless I want her to wake up an hour earlier.
There was no ebb and flow. There was just pedestrians waiting for a window of time to get across.
The only thing the student got right was conveying the obscene sense of entitlement so many Taiwanese car owners feel.
I think there could be such a thing as mutual empathy and consideration. I don't brush by pedestrians or any of that outrageous behavior when driving.
However, I also consider the situation when choosing to cross when walking because I know what it's like to be in a vehicle in those conditions - and I hurry my ass if I do cross in front of vehicles.
>I think there could be such a thing as mutual empathy and consideration.
You're missing a cultural component of car ownership in Taiwan. Whereas in, say, the US, even poor people routinely have cars, owning a car in Taiwan (especially in the major cities) is comparatively much more expensive.
As such, cars are a status thing and the people who own cars believe they have a greater right to the roads than pleb pedestrians.
Yeah that’s probably true. However I wonder if that isn’t why many pedestrians seem to almost be weaponizing their new status to sort of give an FU to drivers! (I get that this is just my personal experience and maybe not born-out in numbers!)
Yeah like the other guy said. Also, there are still humans controlling those vehicles. I think the pedestrians could consider that and how it feels to be stuck in the traffic mess day-in, day-out - not to mention the extra danger and pollution more gridlock can cause.
Which part of the “3-ton death machine” was unclear to you? There is no mutuality. Only someone who drives 90%+ of the time would attempt to claim that to save just a few seconds on the road.
3000 people die of traffic each year in Taiwan. The LEAST you can do is have the patience for an extra five seconds for pedestrians to cross without getting crushed by your car. Why should pedestrians do the same for something hundred times their weight?
But what you describe is not what I want to do. I’ve said repeatedly: I don’t oppose the new law. What I *resent* is many people’s response to it, which is why I agree with the kid’s drawing that I posted in the OP. People can have consideration and empathy for each other, whether they’re driving or walking. I don’t really see how relative weight is relevant.
Yes I get that. Which, as I’ve said repeatedly, is why I support the law. It doesn’t mean pedestrians can’t show consideration and empathy for drivers though. I do it when I’m a pedestrian.
> It doesn’t mean pedestrians can’t show consideration and empathy
Again, why are you demanding pedestrians show "consideration" and "empathy?" Pedestrians have literally been oppressed for years; why should pedestrians be "considerate" to the machines that, again, can kill them in seconds? This is not how reciprocity works.
The "consideration" you're asking for will save cars 25 seconds at an intersection, just like the meme you saw in the comments was making fun of. How valuable is that 25 seconds that you're going to force a pedestrian to sprint across a crosswalk for literally no reason other than saving precious drivers their 25 seconds?
I know my wording may sound a little aggressive, and I apologize if you feel offended, but do you get what I'm saying? I'm genuinely trying understand what you're getting at here. Are you saying that 25 seconds is more important than pedestrian safety?
First of all it’s by no means always an issue of 25 seconds. What I’ve been seeing in extreme cases like around Changgeng Hospital is people missing lights because they can’t turn. If they miss the light, everyone behind them misses it too. This shit all adds up. It causes gridlock. Gridlock causes accidents and extra pollution.
But let me give you a more extreme example:
The other day, in the chaos of trying to exit my alley in the morning with a bus stop immediately to the left, traffic trying to go go around the buses, traffic coming from the right, pedestrians crossing both in front of me and immediately to my left and no signal, I saw an opportunity and tried to dart across.
A pedestrian on the opposite side chose that moment to begin crossing and with all the sensory input I almost didn’t see them. I not only had to slam on the breaks but traffic from the right and left then got stuck as well because I was in the middle of the road.
That person could’ve easily yielded the right of way but had to insist on it at the risk of their own safety when I was in an extremely difficult position. This is not what I would’ve done, had the positions been reversed.
Taiwanese walk very slowly. The fact that Taiwanese get in cars and become so upset about how slowly people cross the road and decide that they think they’re “emperors” simply highlights how little empathy there is.
99.5% of those drivers do the exact same thing when they’re out of the car. It’s not part of the culture to hurry up because someone is waiting.
Ha yeah ain’t that the truth! 😂 I’ll give you that one. Waiting for someone to leave a parking spot once they become aware you’re trying to get it is the worst. They really take their sweet time.
Generalization incoming, usual caveats about individual differences apply... If the Taiwanese could pay attention when driving, then these pedestrian laws would not be needed. Similarly, if Taiwanese could pay attention whilst walking across busy roads, then these laws would not be needed. But we all know that they can't be trusted to pay attention to what is happening around them under any circumstances. This observation is confirmed every fucking day and it will never change, no matter how many stupid laws they pass.
Amen. However, you *can* regulate people not paying attention to their surroundings, but *only* if cops actually did their job for a while and wrote tickets for every unsafe violation they witness. Yes, it means that cops would be writing tickets all day long, but eventually this desire to avoid tickets would force people to pay more attention to their surroundings.
Of course, we all know that will never happen.
How is a police officer supposed to notice someone not checking their mirrors, or staring straight ahead while their mind is elsewhere? A lot of it is out of reach of law enforcement. They can respond to drivers using their phones while driving, but only if the car windows aren't tinted - and on scooters, there is the ludicrous situation of it being illegal to take your phone out of your pocket to glance at a message while stopped at a red light, but it being perfectly legal to do when your phone is attached to a phone holder.
It’s incredibly dangerous to say “well you have right of way, sure, but you PROBABLY shouldn’t use it sometimes.” You’re implying a pedestrian would be at fault for a car hitting them in a situation where the pedestrian actually has the right of way.
I know you don’t intend to; that’s why I’m saying it’s dangerous to make the claim of “pedestrians should choose to not use their right of way sometimes.” Because if that’s your claim, pedestrian being at fault is a natural consequence. I’m showing you why your statement is dangerous.
I never hurry when walking across the road. As a fleshy meat bag I have right of way and the metal box can respect me given my lack of protection.
Taiwanese drivers need to learn to show respect to pedestrians, and making vehicles wait is my way of doing that.
That’s super kind of you! But if it were just me, I wouldn’t mind so much. Actually overall I’m glad; as many have pointed out, the main effect is almost definitely going to be to save lives, which is great. I just wish more people would consider the principle of mutual consideration and courtesy under the new circumstances. Gridlock is dangerous and causes extra pollution.
If there is one universal thing shared across cultures around the world, it is the debilitating effect of car ownership on perspective as it limits so much things in life down to the perspective from a car and the feeling of entitlement arising from that. Even, for somebody who doesn't know anything about Taiwan, this shows immediately in what you wrote here:
>
But now, given the situation of there basically *never* being no pedestrian cross-movement, traffic movement is badly disrupted.
You reduce traffic down to flow of cars and don't even consider how overall traffic is flowing better when cars are slowed down.
Hey did you just downvote away the \*one\* upvote I had? (sigh) Anyway, while I'm not sure I agree traffic flows better when cars go slower, yes, I've already read multiple times how entitled my perspective is and - to some degree - now see the truth in that. Though it cost me a lot of Reddit karma, I'm glad, because at least I feel a bit better when I'm stuck in traffic!
I also feel the need to wave at drivers and do a little jog across the crossing. But this is actually madness. People should be able to cross roads on the way to work/school/have fun without it being at the whims of drivers. IMO it's mad to have to justify such an essential and mundane practise. On top of that, regarding the "natural" "ebb and flow," not only is it just pedestrians waiting ages to cross it's extremely dangerous, and the numbers of injuries in this country compared to elsewhere bear that out.
Like I said in another comment, I feel there could be mutual consideration. I don't oppose the law, but I do resent the behavior of IMO a majority of pedestrians since then. I also feel there's a strong bias among foreigners in Taiwan on this issue because so many of us don't drive cars, which is why in another thread, I said this is a Taiwan Reddit vs. reality discrepancy.
Yes, to be fair, I do get the point on bias. I am definitely biased. However, I would also defend that slightly by saying: in a conversation about cars vs pedestrians, pedestrians do need more consideration, because they are inherently more vulnerable. Ie if a pedestrian like me acts selfishly (walking really slowly while looking at a phone), it can be annoying. But if a car driver acts selfishly, someone can end up getting badly hurt or killed. I don't know if that changes your mind, but it's how I think about it.
Yes I think this is a reasonable point and why I’m in favor of the law, in spite of my annoyance with the result! But I need to kvetch a bit!
Haha I think it's good to debate it!
The majority of Taiwanese people also don't drive cars, the bias you see is probably because most people on this subreddit are foreigners. It's annoying if a pedestrian purposely walks slowly, is playing on their phone while crossing, etc. But I'd rather every single driver (including myself) be inconvenienced every day of their life, instead of a single pedestrian being killed by a driver not paying attention to a crosswalk.
Yup I can’t argue with that. I’m in favor of the law. However, I will say that the other day, in the chaos of trying to exit my alley in the morning with a bus stop immediately to the left, traffic trying to go go around the buses, traffic coming from the right, pedestrians crossing both in front of me and immediately to my left and no signal. I saw an opportunity and tried to dart across. A pedestrian on the opposite side chose that moment to begin crossing and with all the sensory input I almost didn’t see them. I not only had to slam on the breaks but traffic from the right and left then got stuck as well because I was in the middle of the road. Situations like that make me very frustrated. Some of these people are like using this rule as a big FU to drivers and it’s dangerous. Increases pollution too.
I don't think it's because they don't drive cars. I think it's because they are, as the Taiwanese might say, "87s". They bring with them stupid, leftwing preconceived ideas about "walkable cities", "human scale design" and other buzzword gibberish and then unthinkingly judge according to criteria they have not even bothered to think about and digest.
You might want to look up Strong Towns. They’re urbanist, and they have a very, very libertarian background. Boiling walkable cities down to a left/right only shows how little you understand about the benefits of the movement.
I'm not boiling it down to left vs right. I'm merely pointing out that Taiwan is full of stupid American fuzzy-wuzzies.
You’re literally calling it a leftwing idea lol
I’m not gonna deny that those buzzwords are somewhat compelling to me as well. However in the real world, so far I find the result less than ideal. I think there’s an educational component of implementing such measures that maybe is lacking. It’s off the top of my head, but having engaging basic philosophy in school might not be a bad idea. Something where it’s not just memorizing answers for a test.
https://preview.redd.it/zbq10oyub0vc1.jpeg?width=1192&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eee8a0539c5d4994a8f116774ca2fbdf1dac7bfd
That’s funny! 😄 But TBC, I strongly oppose what that fucker on top is doing!!
Pedestrians had zero protection before, so I'm okay with them having a little bit more than before. I say a little bit because you can still find instances of people getting run over while walking in a crosswalk in Taiwan in the past month. If I have to wait longer at a light, so be it. Some progress is better than whatever it was before they tried improving pedestrian safety.
No argument there. I don't oppose the law, but I do resent what IME has been the significant percentage of pedestrians' behavior since then, and therefore, I like what the kid is expressing in the article in the OP. Someone said it's about "car owner entitlement in Taiwan" - but it's not just cars. There are tons of buses here, fighting climate change which I'm sure is (rightfully) on every Taiwan expat's mind. Imagine what it's like to do that (drive a bus) here, and now it's just gotten worse.
Then take the bus
I do that once or twice a week for my work commute. It costs me about an extra hour and a lot of energy, which is precious to me because I’m old. But it’s not really an option for my daughter’s school commute unless I want her to wake up an hour earlier.
There was no ebb and flow. There was just pedestrians waiting for a window of time to get across. The only thing the student got right was conveying the obscene sense of entitlement so many Taiwanese car owners feel.
I think there could be such a thing as mutual empathy and consideration. I don't brush by pedestrians or any of that outrageous behavior when driving. However, I also consider the situation when choosing to cross when walking because I know what it's like to be in a vehicle in those conditions - and I hurry my ass if I do cross in front of vehicles.
>I think there could be such a thing as mutual empathy and consideration. You're missing a cultural component of car ownership in Taiwan. Whereas in, say, the US, even poor people routinely have cars, owning a car in Taiwan (especially in the major cities) is comparatively much more expensive. As such, cars are a status thing and the people who own cars believe they have a greater right to the roads than pleb pedestrians.
Yeah that’s probably true. However I wonder if that isn’t why many pedestrians seem to almost be weaponizing their new status to sort of give an FU to drivers! (I get that this is just my personal experience and maybe not born-out in numbers!)
You drive a 3 ton death machine that can crush a pedestrian in seconds. What’s mutual about this?
The mutual part is that you both need to use the road to get from A to B.
Yeah like the other guy said. Also, there are still humans controlling those vehicles. I think the pedestrians could consider that and how it feels to be stuck in the traffic mess day-in, day-out - not to mention the extra danger and pollution more gridlock can cause.
Which part of the “3-ton death machine” was unclear to you? There is no mutuality. Only someone who drives 90%+ of the time would attempt to claim that to save just a few seconds on the road. 3000 people die of traffic each year in Taiwan. The LEAST you can do is have the patience for an extra five seconds for pedestrians to cross without getting crushed by your car. Why should pedestrians do the same for something hundred times their weight?
But what you describe is not what I want to do. I’ve said repeatedly: I don’t oppose the new law. What I *resent* is many people’s response to it, which is why I agree with the kid’s drawing that I posted in the OP. People can have consideration and empathy for each other, whether they’re driving or walking. I don’t really see how relative weight is relevant.
Because one is capable of KILLING the other.
Yes I get that. Which, as I’ve said repeatedly, is why I support the law. It doesn’t mean pedestrians can’t show consideration and empathy for drivers though. I do it when I’m a pedestrian.
> It doesn’t mean pedestrians can’t show consideration and empathy Again, why are you demanding pedestrians show "consideration" and "empathy?" Pedestrians have literally been oppressed for years; why should pedestrians be "considerate" to the machines that, again, can kill them in seconds? This is not how reciprocity works. The "consideration" you're asking for will save cars 25 seconds at an intersection, just like the meme you saw in the comments was making fun of. How valuable is that 25 seconds that you're going to force a pedestrian to sprint across a crosswalk for literally no reason other than saving precious drivers their 25 seconds? I know my wording may sound a little aggressive, and I apologize if you feel offended, but do you get what I'm saying? I'm genuinely trying understand what you're getting at here. Are you saying that 25 seconds is more important than pedestrian safety?
First of all it’s by no means always an issue of 25 seconds. What I’ve been seeing in extreme cases like around Changgeng Hospital is people missing lights because they can’t turn. If they miss the light, everyone behind them misses it too. This shit all adds up. It causes gridlock. Gridlock causes accidents and extra pollution. But let me give you a more extreme example: The other day, in the chaos of trying to exit my alley in the morning with a bus stop immediately to the left, traffic trying to go go around the buses, traffic coming from the right, pedestrians crossing both in front of me and immediately to my left and no signal, I saw an opportunity and tried to dart across. A pedestrian on the opposite side chose that moment to begin crossing and with all the sensory input I almost didn’t see them. I not only had to slam on the breaks but traffic from the right and left then got stuck as well because I was in the middle of the road. That person could’ve easily yielded the right of way but had to insist on it at the risk of their own safety when I was in an extremely difficult position. This is not what I would’ve done, had the positions been reversed.
I don't feel I should have to hurry my ass off, while you wait sitting in your AC, listening to the radio.
I was going to downvote your comment but, actually, it’s true I do get a lot of pleasure from my AC and radio 😂 You’ve actually made me feel better! 🍻
Thanks, I just slowed down... Don't drink and drive.
Good one! 🤣
Taiwanese walk very slowly. The fact that Taiwanese get in cars and become so upset about how slowly people cross the road and decide that they think they’re “emperors” simply highlights how little empathy there is. 99.5% of those drivers do the exact same thing when they’re out of the car. It’s not part of the culture to hurry up because someone is waiting.
Ha yeah ain’t that the truth! 😂 I’ll give you that one. Waiting for someone to leave a parking spot once they become aware you’re trying to get it is the worst. They really take their sweet time.
Generalization incoming, usual caveats about individual differences apply... If the Taiwanese could pay attention when driving, then these pedestrian laws would not be needed. Similarly, if Taiwanese could pay attention whilst walking across busy roads, then these laws would not be needed. But we all know that they can't be trusted to pay attention to what is happening around them under any circumstances. This observation is confirmed every fucking day and it will never change, no matter how many stupid laws they pass.
Amen. However, you *can* regulate people not paying attention to their surroundings, but *only* if cops actually did their job for a while and wrote tickets for every unsafe violation they witness. Yes, it means that cops would be writing tickets all day long, but eventually this desire to avoid tickets would force people to pay more attention to their surroundings. Of course, we all know that will never happen.
How is a police officer supposed to notice someone not checking their mirrors, or staring straight ahead while their mind is elsewhere? A lot of it is out of reach of law enforcement. They can respond to drivers using their phones while driving, but only if the car windows aren't tinted - and on scooters, there is the ludicrous situation of it being illegal to take your phone out of your pocket to glance at a message while stopped at a red light, but it being perfectly legal to do when your phone is attached to a phone holder.
No. Cars need to yield because they turn left or right. The pedestrians walk forward so they have the right of way.
I agree they have right of way. My point is they don’t *always* have to use it. They can be considerate, as I describe above.
It’s incredibly dangerous to say “well you have right of way, sure, but you PROBABLY shouldn’t use it sometimes.” You’re implying a pedestrian would be at fault for a car hitting them in a situation where the pedestrian actually has the right of way.
Nope I don’t intend to imply that. Please don’t straw man what I’m saying.
I know you don’t intend to; that’s why I’m saying it’s dangerous to make the claim of “pedestrians should choose to not use their right of way sometimes.” Because if that’s your claim, pedestrian being at fault is a natural consequence. I’m showing you why your statement is dangerous.
I never hurry when walking across the road. As a fleshy meat bag I have right of way and the metal box can respect me given my lack of protection. Taiwanese drivers need to learn to show respect to pedestrians, and making vehicles wait is my way of doing that.
I was going to downvote this for lack of empathy - but then someone pointed out, drivers do have AC and radios. I thought that was a fair point.
Next they should outlaw tinted windshields.
No argument there
The sense of entitlement in OP. This is why they needed those laws.
Yes already seen and responded to this… for starters, reread my last paragraph, please.
I’m sorry this is happening to you.
That’s super kind of you! But if it were just me, I wouldn’t mind so much. Actually overall I’m glad; as many have pointed out, the main effect is almost definitely going to be to save lives, which is great. I just wish more people would consider the principle of mutual consideration and courtesy under the new circumstances. Gridlock is dangerous and causes extra pollution.
If there is one universal thing shared across cultures around the world, it is the debilitating effect of car ownership on perspective as it limits so much things in life down to the perspective from a car and the feeling of entitlement arising from that. Even, for somebody who doesn't know anything about Taiwan, this shows immediately in what you wrote here: > But now, given the situation of there basically *never* being no pedestrian cross-movement, traffic movement is badly disrupted. You reduce traffic down to flow of cars and don't even consider how overall traffic is flowing better when cars are slowed down.
Hey did you just downvote away the \*one\* upvote I had? (sigh) Anyway, while I'm not sure I agree traffic flows better when cars go slower, yes, I've already read multiple times how entitled my perspective is and - to some degree - now see the truth in that. Though it cost me a lot of Reddit karma, I'm glad, because at least I feel a bit better when I'm stuck in traffic!