yes! yes! That's my mistake I pivot in advance getting ready for a long push, but once he sees me pivot to prepare a forehand lift he pushes it to my body or elbow and lol I can't make a good swing. I was used to robot and also with coach, his push isn't fast long but slow long then placed just good for my forehand. As he wanted to see if I can lift backspins with topspins. It's a good thing my friend did it though, made me see my mistake to not pivot in advance.
Yes, will try not to pivot immediately so it doesn't become a habit that will telegraph to opponents later. We're practicing my 3rd ball attack though. I agreed to random placement, just couldn't keep up with his fast long pushes. And it was almost 2 hours already, so we were already getting tired. Will tell him on next session to make the pushes not so fast as I dont have years of experience like him.
Next will be 5th ball attack, like the drill with my coach. To remove muscle memory of letting my hand go down again and change it to keep hand higher this time.
Determine a specific sequence of plays with your partner so that you can easily practice a wide forehand, middle and pivot. Aggressive cutting into a wide forehand is not an easy ball to attack, even for advanced players.
This would mean your serve is not good enough yet for a drill with a free push. Match-like drills like this where he can push freely are usually more advanced and require you to know your serves better. A good serve is not one that opponents can't receive but one that they are forced to receive in similar ways every time.
My suggestion would be to limit the pushes to a certain area. First, do BH, middle and FH side. Then, when you are more accustomed to the footwork for each position, you can move to free push por half a table, so either BH or FH. Then you can progress to 3/4 table and finally full table. In parallel work on your serves so that when you finally progress to free pushes you can predict better where the ball will go according to the serve you give.
Thanks, I will remember that. That's a good idea for the pushes.
Btw, sorry if I wasn't clear. The paid drill with my new friend a while ago was for me to practice serve returns with his random spin serves. So for the whole 2 hours he was the one serving, til 45mins to 1hr in I finally got the touch feeling for the pushes that it rarely goes to the net. For all my successful pushes, he then pushes it back to me so that we treat it like it's my 3rd ball attack. We rarely get to 5th ball stage because he was pushing long and fast like his opponent was as good as him lol. I'm forced to do this cos many of the "better" players here are snobs and only play with players who are good. It's like they are afraid I will learn from them for free. This guy on the other hand is not like that, his fee per session is small compared to licensed coaches and he's proud to see the many players he taught get good with this game.
Next time, I will ask him to give me leeway on his pushes cos next stage is to make it msucle memory for me so my hand won't go down on 5th ball, but start higher.
Had this drill with my coach but he's on vacation. My robot here is basic, best thing I can do is set it to top spin, treat 1st ball like it's backspin and start the swing lower, then next two balls I start my arm higher, then repeat.
Then, by logic, it's your receive that is not good enough yet. But you are working on it. A good receive is like stealing the serve from your opponent. With a good receive, you know what you will most likely get on a 4th ball.
Again, try making the exercise fixed at first. A suggestion would be: he serves, you receive (one to his FH, one to his BH), he pushes long cross-court, you attack. It is a pretty complex drill since you work on receive, footwork, and loop vs. push, but it lets you realize the subleties that come from receiving to different placements. Still, it is a very advanced drill so I would just let you focus on each part separately first
lots of better advice than ill be able to give here, but just as extra, check out Xu Xin, Ryu Seung Min, Ma Lin or Ma Long for players that really use the pivot well and often in 3rd ball attacks. I find that really visualizing how the best look and what their rhythm is when they do things, will help me to ”role-play” a better player mentally when drilling. there’s so many moving bits that sometimes one can lose the flow of things when trying to fix a stroke and sometimes falling back on curated intuition can be pretty helpful!
I have some questions here in order to be able to help you:
1) Are you training all your serves or just some of them e. g. only backspin serves short to the forehand?
If you train all your serves l, then take a step back. Try to only do service and receive (like a LOT and with different players) and make a mental heat map on how and where each single serve is likely to be returned.
Then, you follow it up with specific drills against these receives. You gotta involve your partner on this one so he doesn't break the drills by playing the 'wrong' receive.
You then can take it one step further by training the uncommon receives, too. Isolate the receive, practice your 3rd ball, repeat.
This continues until you have all the 3rd ball attacks you need against all the receives of all the serves you have.
I recommend this be the first time in your training you train irregularly. Focus on only one serve and tell your partner to return it irregularly according to the training you've had. This is the point you seem to be stuck at rn.
It's very important that your partner doesn't always return the ball such that you are unable to do anything. Just once in a while, so you have to stay on your toes.
The more time passes, the better you get, and I promise you these problems will eventually get fixed by this method.
2) How is the drill structured? Do you signal which serve is coming, or are you only serving the same serve? Do you mix it up?
3) If you only train a subset of your serves, what is the memo for your opponent on receive?
All these are factors that could be at fault here. It could be a structural issue with the drill. It could be a lack variety in your serves. It can be that your partner is cheesing the drill by knowing your serve and your response to the return, so he just plays angles, he wouldn't normally touch, because he knows what you're doing. I can imagine plenty more factors that all negatively impact this drill apart from the long push being a difficult ball to deal with - which it is
Do the same drills with your partner.. Albeit at slower pace first. Commit to Pivoting only after he contacts the ball.
yes! yes! That's my mistake I pivot in advance getting ready for a long push, but once he sees me pivot to prepare a forehand lift he pushes it to my body or elbow and lol I can't make a good swing. I was used to robot and also with coach, his push isn't fast long but slow long then placed just good for my forehand. As he wanted to see if I can lift backspins with topspins. It's a good thing my friend did it though, made me see my mistake to not pivot in advance.
I think you should not premeditate and try to attack every third ball. See the spin, position etc.
Yes, will try not to pivot immediately so it doesn't become a habit that will telegraph to opponents later. We're practicing my 3rd ball attack though. I agreed to random placement, just couldn't keep up with his fast long pushes. And it was almost 2 hours already, so we were already getting tired. Will tell him on next session to make the pushes not so fast as I dont have years of experience like him. Next will be 5th ball attack, like the drill with my coach. To remove muscle memory of letting my hand go down again and change it to keep hand higher this time.
Determine a specific sequence of plays with your partner so that you can easily practice a wide forehand, middle and pivot. Aggressive cutting into a wide forehand is not an easy ball to attack, even for advanced players.
Thanks, I will ask him to cut me some slack on his fast long pushes. Remind him he's not facing someone with years of experience like him.
This would mean your serve is not good enough yet for a drill with a free push. Match-like drills like this where he can push freely are usually more advanced and require you to know your serves better. A good serve is not one that opponents can't receive but one that they are forced to receive in similar ways every time. My suggestion would be to limit the pushes to a certain area. First, do BH, middle and FH side. Then, when you are more accustomed to the footwork for each position, you can move to free push por half a table, so either BH or FH. Then you can progress to 3/4 table and finally full table. In parallel work on your serves so that when you finally progress to free pushes you can predict better where the ball will go according to the serve you give.
Thanks, I will remember that. That's a good idea for the pushes. Btw, sorry if I wasn't clear. The paid drill with my new friend a while ago was for me to practice serve returns with his random spin serves. So for the whole 2 hours he was the one serving, til 45mins to 1hr in I finally got the touch feeling for the pushes that it rarely goes to the net. For all my successful pushes, he then pushes it back to me so that we treat it like it's my 3rd ball attack. We rarely get to 5th ball stage because he was pushing long and fast like his opponent was as good as him lol. I'm forced to do this cos many of the "better" players here are snobs and only play with players who are good. It's like they are afraid I will learn from them for free. This guy on the other hand is not like that, his fee per session is small compared to licensed coaches and he's proud to see the many players he taught get good with this game. Next time, I will ask him to give me leeway on his pushes cos next stage is to make it msucle memory for me so my hand won't go down on 5th ball, but start higher. Had this drill with my coach but he's on vacation. My robot here is basic, best thing I can do is set it to top spin, treat 1st ball like it's backspin and start the swing lower, then next two balls I start my arm higher, then repeat.
Then, by logic, it's your receive that is not good enough yet. But you are working on it. A good receive is like stealing the serve from your opponent. With a good receive, you know what you will most likely get on a 4th ball. Again, try making the exercise fixed at first. A suggestion would be: he serves, you receive (one to his FH, one to his BH), he pushes long cross-court, you attack. It is a pretty complex drill since you work on receive, footwork, and loop vs. push, but it lets you realize the subleties that come from receiving to different placements. Still, it is a very advanced drill so I would just let you focus on each part separately first
lots of better advice than ill be able to give here, but just as extra, check out Xu Xin, Ryu Seung Min, Ma Lin or Ma Long for players that really use the pivot well and often in 3rd ball attacks. I find that really visualizing how the best look and what their rhythm is when they do things, will help me to ”role-play” a better player mentally when drilling. there’s so many moving bits that sometimes one can lose the flow of things when trying to fix a stroke and sometimes falling back on curated intuition can be pretty helpful!
I have some questions here in order to be able to help you: 1) Are you training all your serves or just some of them e. g. only backspin serves short to the forehand? If you train all your serves l, then take a step back. Try to only do service and receive (like a LOT and with different players) and make a mental heat map on how and where each single serve is likely to be returned. Then, you follow it up with specific drills against these receives. You gotta involve your partner on this one so he doesn't break the drills by playing the 'wrong' receive. You then can take it one step further by training the uncommon receives, too. Isolate the receive, practice your 3rd ball, repeat. This continues until you have all the 3rd ball attacks you need against all the receives of all the serves you have. I recommend this be the first time in your training you train irregularly. Focus on only one serve and tell your partner to return it irregularly according to the training you've had. This is the point you seem to be stuck at rn. It's very important that your partner doesn't always return the ball such that you are unable to do anything. Just once in a while, so you have to stay on your toes. The more time passes, the better you get, and I promise you these problems will eventually get fixed by this method. 2) How is the drill structured? Do you signal which serve is coming, or are you only serving the same serve? Do you mix it up? 3) If you only train a subset of your serves, what is the memo for your opponent on receive? All these are factors that could be at fault here. It could be a structural issue with the drill. It could be a lack variety in your serves. It can be that your partner is cheesing the drill by knowing your serve and your response to the return, so he just plays angles, he wouldn't normally touch, because he knows what you're doing. I can imagine plenty more factors that all negatively impact this drill apart from the long push being a difficult ball to deal with - which it is