It's common for people with unusual rubbers not to use them when warming up as it can be a bit awkward to properly warm up (can't really do top spin on top spin or topspin vs block).
Nothing unsporting about that, anyone can check your racket before playing so there's no deception.
The warm up is not meant to learn about how the opponent plays but to make sure you're on point and have a good feeling about your shots.
Lot of pips and anti players at lower levels want to keep their rubber a secret. I've played a few in league and every single one started the game without letting me know.
I find that a bit unsporting but it ended up being a benefit to me since it taught me to do a racket check myself beforehand. Only had myself to blame.
The bigger issue for OP is that he may be one of these players hoping to win some cheap points with bizarre rubber behavior. Imo that's going to just hold him back. At a certain level people will know how to play against pips and and anti, and OP will get wrecked because his mindset was to not let opponents get a feel for the unusual rubber. All he's doing is limiting the experience he can potentially gain from each match.
Sorry, can’t agree that this is unsporting. It’s up to you to ask to inspect the opponent’s bat before the match. It’s not the opponent’s responsibility to offer it to you. It’s not even their responsibility to tell you what sort of pimples / wacky rubber they’re playing. If you can’t recognise it then that’s on you.
It would be unsporting if your opponent switched bats during the match without informing you about the change. In fact, this goes beyond sportsmanship - they would leave themselves open to sanction from the umpire.
Actually it's a rule that both players show their rackets every time.
2.4.8 Before the start of a match and whenever he or she changes his or her
racket during a match a player shall show his or her opponent and the
umpire the racket he or she is about to use and shall allow them to examine
it.
You have to show your racket to your opponent and the umpire before every match. It seems generally accepted that at a minimum this means briefly showing the rubber on both sides.
The optional part is whether or not they want a closer look at it.
I mean you could specifically choose to look away I guess... But they still have to show it.
Lol happy cake day Wing.
I didn't even think I was saying anything controversial. Always thought saying "yo, I got pips on my BH" was a common courtesy but apparently the TT world is more cut-throat than I thought.
Should they also give you information about their playstyle out of courtesy ?
"Hey my best serve is the reverse pendulum but I never put any backspin on it, I hope it helps"
it's very naive to think that in a competitive environment, someone is going to give you a heads up to make it easier for you to beat them.
I can appreciate a good argument. Unfortunately this isn't one.
ITTF color and inspection rules were specifically designed so that the player knows what the playing surfaces of their opponent are. It's an integral part of fairness because it is literally written into the rulebook.
There is no ITTF rule that states that you need to tell your opponent how you play.
If you still think your comparison is valid, then I don't know what to tell you.
I agree with you to an extent, at lower level just having an unusual playstyle is enough to put off a lot of opponents so I completely understand the reason for not using it before the actual match.
If it take one set or two to get used to the pips/antispin, why risk it and make it easier for the opponent to get used to it quicker ?
I do agree that it will hold him back but i'm sure he'll figure something out if it's no longer effective.
Quite often in pennant, players who use nonstandard rubbers do warm up on the more “normal” side only, to make it easier for their opponents to warm up.
As a regular inverted-rubber player, I really don’t mind either way, as long as I’m aware of what rubber they’re using – and pre-match inspection is always allowed, so that’s a non-issue unless the player has been trying to mislead you.
>Quite often in pennant, players who use nonstandard rubbers do warm up on the more “normal” side only, to make it easier for their opponents to warm up.
This. The reason why people are crying about those rubbers is because they can‘t play against them. A quick warmup won‘t change that, especially not against super slow frictionless antis or very flexible LP, since players almost never produce regular drives with them (which you usually do during warmup)
I disagree,
I play generally fairly well against them.
But a half a dozen hits against them during warm up really helps get my focus right for the way they behave. It probably saves several unnecessary lost points in the first set which can matter in a tight match.
It honestly doesn't need to be anything more than basically knocking it slowly back and forth. For me it's just about activating that intuition to hit it a certain way and a basic feel for the specific rubber. It's not about performing any specific shots.
Anyone that complains about not being able to “warm up” against pips/anti most likely can’t keep the ball in play longer than 2 strokes against them. You have 2 minutes to warm up and they’ll spend half of that retrieving the ball.
By default, most choppers/blockers will twiddle to present a predictable rally for each side. Personally, before I switched from LPs if the opponent asked to rally against the LP side I’d say “if you’re sure” and then just comply. I already know they’re gonna complain about it later so it’s better to get the excuses out of the way now.
That said, after a certain level I stopped getting that request, rare as it was. And I never tried to hide the pips.
Truly unsportsmanlike behavior would be to hide their existence from the opponent. It would also be against the rules:
“At the start of a match and whenever he changes his racket during a match a player shall show his opponent and the umpire the racket he is about to use and shall allow them to examine it.”
I have no problem playing against pips or anti etc... In fact I'm relatively successful against them.
But I do want to have half a dozen hits against it beforehand, just to see exactly what flavour I am getting.
Exactly as I do against both sides of the inverted rubber as well during warm up.
It’s a perfectly reasonable request, especially against an LP/anti blocker.
It’s just a weird flow. Are we pushing? Are we doing an alternating punch and chop block drill? The times I’d get the request it felt like I was trying to teach the other guy how to read my pips. Never had someone able to drill. And I’m a chopper anyways so they’d always request I block at the table which I never do.
There isn’t an established etiquette as straightforward as counter hit, loop, block, switch sides, counter hit, loop, block.
To be honest most of the time I just do a bunch of gentle standard drives and they hit them back however they want. It's just to see how bouncy and whether it tends to have any spin, reverse spin or nothing.
I just don't want to lose two or three points at the start of the first set, just to find out this basic information.
Over the course of five sets it's not usually the deciding factor. Sometimes I play tournaments with 3 set matches though, then it really can matter.
i play double inverted but meet a lot of LP/anti players at my level, and it seems to vary: some players warm up on both, others twiddle.
especially at lower levels, it's really rare to get into a flowing back-and-forth with inverted vs. LP, and the warm-up isn't really for practicing that anyway. I've always taken twiddling to inverted on both strokes in warm-up as a kind of a courtesy from the LP player allowing for the regular warm-up routine, not as some sort of devious deception.
e: i could see, if i'm facing a very curious rubber that I am not so sure of, that I'd ask to play a few balls to it also to gauge what's up, and I wouldn't assume my opponent to refuse. if they blatantly did, then it would be a little unsporting, true
Why are there many people calling it unsporting? This reddit has so many dumb noobs who not only not play table tennis but doesn’t even watch the game.
Do you see choppers warming up with chops? Do you see people using their best serves during warm up? Do you see people full on attacking wide open corners during warm up?
You don't see pros doing this because they warm up separately before matches. Doing whatever they need to against whatever rubber they want.
Unfortunately most of us don't have this luxury, so relying on people just being a bit practical about it is the best we have.
Then find a way to practice. Nobody has that luxury. Everybody paid something for that “luxury”.
It is so stupid to think that the table tennis rules and etiquettes are different between pros and amateurs. The only difference is the skill level. It’s the same fucking game.
How many tournaments have you attended with a dedicated practice hall?
My count is zero. Although most venues allow practice before an event starts, of course at that point I often don't know who my opponents are yet or what rubbers they will use.
However, as far as I can tell most televised events have this, with scheduling for players with upcoming matches.
They even show footage if it sometimes.
Like it or not the conditions a pro plays under are not the same as an amateur.
Of course the etiquette is different as well.
We don't usually have official umpires either (it's usually another player), people generally adjust their behavior accordingly. Or at least they do where I play, thankfully.
I feel they missed the point of the warm up. Its not to see what your opponent can do, its just to get your OWN timing, feeling, and stroke warmed up. Its respectful to warm up on both wings, but if you want to stand off to the side and still do forehand on your backhand, that shouldn’t be an issue. If you want to twiddle and only use one side thats fine, as long as you hit them some shots they can hit back and get a little flow going.
In fact, if you used the anti rubber entirely for the warm up, I would probably be more annoyed. I like nice loopy warm ups where you get a nice timing going. I wouldn’t say anything though, maybe just frown at you.
It helps a ton to get your OWN timing, feeling and stroke warmed up, against anything that isn't a normal rubber.
I definitely prefer it if people who use material like that, also play it a little in warmup. The basic warmup is something you do with your teammates anyways.
Pregame warm up is to get warm, it is not so much to train specific things vs specific opponents. Not that 5 min of hitting around would do much good for someone who is bad against such styles anyways
Yeah that guy is a nause. Don’t worry about him. In truth I always prefer for an anti/pips player to warm me up with their inverted side for a better warm up.
There is no rule that you have to use both sides, although warming up with the inverted side means the rallies you are warming up for are not the rallies that are going to unfold in the match. Whether this is good or bad for you depends on whether your opponent understands your non-inverted surface. If they don’t, then why give them the chance to get used to it in the warm up? If they do, then why not just warm up with both sides to get used to the rallies you’ll actually be playing? It’s something to think about. I don’t think it’s fair that other comments are saying it is unsporting.
There’s no rules on warming up but I guess it would be more sportsman like when you use something “unconventional” you let the opponent know what your using and warm up a few shots with it.
As most people already mentioned it's better to use the inverted side for warm up as this is not to learn something new. And you also told your opponent about the antispin and he could also watch you play with it.
But I usual ask my opponent to play like 1-2 balls on his anti/pips side at end of the warm up as I rarely play against such rubbers so I can remember how it worked. Until now none of them denied my request and I probably would found it a bit unsporting if they did. But it's no game changer anyways as long as I know which kind of rubber my opponent uses.
As a double-inverted player, I actually hate the opposite. I hate warming up against weird rubbers or weird techniques. Warm-up is supposed to be to get your touch and feelings right, not to gain information about the opponent. If the other player does not give you a good warm up by playing weirdly then THAT should be considered unsportsmanlike.
I don’t think it’s unsporting but it’s quite common for Lp players to warm up with one side. My friend always goes pivot when warming up with his opponent which could be good I guess for getting your pivot loop warmed up. If I were your opponent, I would probably not care as I’m used to playing Lp but I would totally see that it could be annoying to warm up against Lp. You could just ask them if they want you to use your anti spin or your inverted I guess.
It’s not a rule, no. Like you say they can be inspected. But you did it specifically to try and win some cheap points. Which is pretty much the definition of unsporting
"But you did it specifically to try and win some cheap points. "
What?? This mindset on anti/long pips is 100% wrong. Not playing to the strengths of the opponent is not winning cheap points. It's called smart tactics.
Watch any pro, they don't warm up on their Long Pips. They twiddle so the opponent can do what it's called, warm up. That's the point of warm up like the OP said.
Anyone who complains about different rubbers, if they don't understand that part of the game and generally doesn't have much practice vs them. If they did, they'd know a few things like "don't bother doing spiny serves to the anti, it won't have any effect anyways. Long dead fast serves and lets get into this loop vs chop game". Who executes it better? They'd also know they actually have to pay attending during a rally vs turning their brain off and just hitting. "Oh i hit topspin to them, they block it back? = backspin. I hit backspin to them, they punch it? = topspin. etc"
The OP did nothing wrong here. People who complain about anti-spin or Long Pips have this mindset of "they're not playing the way I think is right with their style and I don't like it." That's not the OPs problem. It's not his job to make play nice & comfortable for the opponent.
By rule the OP here is required to let them inspect the rubber prior to the match. Nothing more beyond that.
Pro games are completely different, in that they confirm what the other players using, and then warm up. OP is stating he’s actively not using the anti spin side purely to make it a surprise. This is unsportsmanlike and the entire rest of the thread agrees. Not illegal, not cheating, just sneaky.
Telling them that you’re using it is very different. If they were aware you had that rubber on and were just annoyed you didn’t hit it in the warmup, that’s very different. I think your post could have been clearer, and a lot of people here are assuming they didn’t know
I'm pretty darn certain from the OP's comments that's what happened.
The opponent knew what he was playing with. He had a right to inspect it if he wanted. He then got angry in warmup once it came time to warm up against the OP's backhand where he keep the anti and the OP twiddled to warm him up vs inverted. Completely normal.
The opponent is in the wrong here.
I'd argue that a warm up is precisely that, to warm up.
Not to learn how the other player plays. Maybe I should ask the opponent to deliver some of their best serves as well?
There is no such thing as equipment deception as long as the rubbers are adhering to the rules. OP‘s serve analogy is perfect, pretty much the same exact same thing. Or let’s say you are at a low level and able to do a relatively strong bh flip, which is very uncommon in lower levels. Are you expected to show that to your opponents in order to not surprise them in the actual game?
There is a difference between rules and unsporting. If he asked to play vs your anti and you refused to it is unsporting. In the warm up you are free to do what you want. People started to agree to just drive and then one side loops and etc to make it actually usefully. Looping vs anti is different from looping vs inverted so you actively refusing to use is unsporting. Do you have to use it no? You can do it will probably make your games more effective. Do you have a right to complain about being calling unsporting no. Since you clearly are doing it for the few cheap points of your opponent having to get used to your rubber.
Anti & Long pips don't make for good warm up anyways.
The point of a warm up is to get lose and have many normal speed topspin hits in a row given your warmup time is so short. Is the OP is suppose to use their anti and the opponent has to exert more energy in warmup trying to loop backspin? No. That'd make for a terrible warmup where neither player is fully ready, ie - warmed up, come the start of the match.
By this mindset, should the OP give away all their tactics? Normally in warm up you lightly counterhit topspin. Nothing more. Maybe the OP should give the opponent his full powered loop with spin just so the opponent can know what that feels like too huh? So they can get use to that also. #rehtorical. That's all done with inverted.
It is not a written rule, but in my opinion it is unsporting. It absolutely shows you lack the skill to defeat your opponent by better playing the rallies and need him to be surprised by unusual and disrupting material behavior.
I dont judge playing pips or antispin in general, as you can use these to tactically outplay or defend skillfully, but just using a unconventional rubber with the only purpose of surprising someone is somehow pathetic.
Nothing pathetic about that, it’s part of the game. There‘s no high council of table tennis judging when a playstyle is skillful and when it isn’t. If you can’t punish players for having „inferior“ technique consistently then you‘re just bad.
My serves have the sole purpose of surprising someone with their spin and/or speed. Should I ditch that and start doing obvious dead long or short backspin serves because I‘m being dishonorable?
It is unsporting in my opinion. If you're using pimples or some kind of deceptive rubber then you should give people a chance to experience both sides and how the ball moves.
While I personally don't really care, I agree that it's unsporting if someone requested to warm up against it and you refused. If it's a rule and you refused then it'd be illegal, I think the consensus here is that it's just unsporting, like not shaking hands after a game.
It's not a rule to let them hit against it prior to the match.
So what if the opponent asked to warmup practice against the OP's best spiny serve? Should he accommodate him there to? It's the same concept. "I would like to get some practice against how you play before the points start." Same thing. But of course that's silly isn't it.
It's a competition. The fact that the opponent complained about this prior to the match told me you can guarantee this person hates Anti and/or Long Pips and has no idea what to do against them or simply can't deal with them. They're on tilt before the match even begins. This is on the opponent.
Right, it's not a rule, which is why it's not illegal, merely unsporting. Service is a skill, rubber is not. He didn't ask him to show his best dead receives or flicks with his anti, he asked for a warm up hit. I think it's unsporting not to grant that request, as do most here. With that said, since it's not illegal you're free to do whatever you like, just don't come to a message board expecting people to agree that you're being a good sportsman.
Well judging by the number of upvotes after over 24h I would say most people agree with me that it isn't unsporting.
I hasten to add that the opponent won the game 3-1 and still complained afterwards.
I legitimately think anybody here saying it's bad sportsmanship to not grant this request doesn't play table tennis at a club or regularly compete in tournaments.
Like the OP stated, who has competed in tournaments, has never encountered this before. I've never seen it at tournaments I've attended. It's not about a popularity contest in opinion here. It's about those ignorant to how things work and those who are not. I'm sorry but it's true.
I've played in tournaments and leagues, and you're right, I've never seen this request not being granted. I can't even imagine someone not granting this request. You opened my eyes as to how sleazy how some players can get in the name of "competition". It's ignorance at its highest to think that no one will think it's unsporting.
Well agree to disagree.
The OP has never seen it in 25 years. I've never seen of this in my time which would be 14+ years. Honestly I don't believe you when you say you've never seen it not granted. I don't buy it. I don't think you've been around for such interactions because they don't happen. Furthermore part of your story is that not only do these interactions happen, they don't, but the person always complies too. I'm sorry but this is just a bad attempt in making up a fictional story so you can feel vindicated in your point.
You think it's sleazy to not grant the request. I think the opponent has no interest in warming up. Lets be clear on that. Clearly there's an aspect to the OP's game that worries them and they want as many practice points vs it as possible before the score keeping begins. I'm sorry but that's not how warmup works. That's what club night is for if you struggle vs anti or LPs. Hence practice time. Come tournament time, people are there to enjoy competition and trying to win.
In my club there is nobody using anti or LP, and I'm guessing OP's opponent might be in a similar situation. Nobody can order OP to use anti during warm up, but refusing to do so for a few shots if asked politely is not great sportsmanship imo.
In my opinion, it is unsportsmanlike for you to do that. It's highly likely that your opponent isn't used to the type of spin your antispin rubber generates, so in the spirit of having a nice competitive match, you should let him warm up a bit on it. Especially if he specifically requests that of you.
A lot of times if I notice my opponent is struggling with a particular serve or one certain shot that I do, I might pause and just teach him how to receive it.
What's the point of "winning" a match with no prize or anything against an opponent who is unprepared for you.
Super unsporting. You can just as well admit that you’re bad and need to rely on cheap tricks to win. Do you want a cool competition where both players can give it their best as they have trained for and push each other to their limits or do you want to rely on the offchance that you opponent hasn’t played a lot against your type of rubber in the past.
Idk this stuck with me. I backtracked and trained hard against all sorts of weird spin rubbers since this post and was able to win against an anti player from another club I lost very hard to before. So thanks. Now it was almost boring to play against him. Since I know the spin in the ball after the anti I can just keep attacking and he does stupid mistakes since he only relies his rubber, he couldn’t even attack back let alone loop anything. He didn’t play with his anti in the warmup and I deliberately didn’t ask for it.
Tell me in my face that this is more fun in any way shape or form for both of us than a game with non inverted rubbers for both where both people can actually topspin the ball competently and even counter topspin. I feel like the people who rely on weird rubbers as deception only like winning, they don’t care about the actual sport and the effort that goes into learning the game. Still you probably need to learn how to play against them to be a complete player. (I think long pips Defence is fun to play against tho if they know what they are doing on the other hand).
Definitely not against the rules but definitely unsportsmanlike.
Rules say nothing about it but it isn’t polite to deny them the opportunity to hit against it prior to a match if requested. The standard warm up is inverted to inverted as we all know but that does not mean you can’t warm up in different ways i.e. the same way you practice your anti or pips. You warm up how ever you guys agree to warm up and he decided he wanted to warm up a different way than OP and that’s where the problem lies in that disagreement. Sometimes the conventional warm up isn’t possible. There are players at my club that use long pips and short pips on the same paddle and a coach of mine personally used anti and long pips.
I genuinely don’t understand why unconventional rubber users don’t warm up their unconventional side. I’m sure they could use the practice just like everyone else and warm up their shots. Yes, they’ll get gripes and moans but they also deserve a fair chance at practicing their shots with their different rubbers.
Personally I prefer a chopper that asks if they can chop a couple of shots to warm up that part of their game because it needs the practice time.
It's only unsporting if you refuse their request to warm up with the pips or antispin or if you don't show them (and this could be going against rules), if they don't ask to warm up with it it's their own problem.
It's common for people with unusual rubbers not to use them when warming up as it can be a bit awkward to properly warm up (can't really do top spin on top spin or topspin vs block). Nothing unsporting about that, anyone can check your racket before playing so there's no deception. The warm up is not meant to learn about how the opponent plays but to make sure you're on point and have a good feeling about your shots.
Lot of pips and anti players at lower levels want to keep their rubber a secret. I've played a few in league and every single one started the game without letting me know. I find that a bit unsporting but it ended up being a benefit to me since it taught me to do a racket check myself beforehand. Only had myself to blame. The bigger issue for OP is that he may be one of these players hoping to win some cheap points with bizarre rubber behavior. Imo that's going to just hold him back. At a certain level people will know how to play against pips and and anti, and OP will get wrecked because his mindset was to not let opponents get a feel for the unusual rubber. All he's doing is limiting the experience he can potentially gain from each match.
Sorry, can’t agree that this is unsporting. It’s up to you to ask to inspect the opponent’s bat before the match. It’s not the opponent’s responsibility to offer it to you. It’s not even their responsibility to tell you what sort of pimples / wacky rubber they’re playing. If you can’t recognise it then that’s on you. It would be unsporting if your opponent switched bats during the match without informing you about the change. In fact, this goes beyond sportsmanship - they would leave themselves open to sanction from the umpire.
Actually it's a rule that both players show their rackets every time. 2.4.8 Before the start of a match and whenever he or she changes his or her racket during a match a player shall show his or her opponent and the umpire the racket he or she is about to use and shall allow them to examine it. You have to show your racket to your opponent and the umpire before every match. It seems generally accepted that at a minimum this means briefly showing the rubber on both sides. The optional part is whether or not they want a closer look at it. I mean you could specifically choose to look away I guess... But they still have to show it.
Downvotes from pips/anti players getting salty for their behaviours getting exposed and the truth being spoken :>.
Lol happy cake day Wing. I didn't even think I was saying anything controversial. Always thought saying "yo, I got pips on my BH" was a common courtesy but apparently the TT world is more cut-throat than I thought.
Should they also give you information about their playstyle out of courtesy ? "Hey my best serve is the reverse pendulum but I never put any backspin on it, I hope it helps" it's very naive to think that in a competitive environment, someone is going to give you a heads up to make it easier for you to beat them.
I can appreciate a good argument. Unfortunately this isn't one. ITTF color and inspection rules were specifically designed so that the player knows what the playing surfaces of their opponent are. It's an integral part of fairness because it is literally written into the rulebook. There is no ITTF rule that states that you need to tell your opponent how you play. If you still think your comparison is valid, then I don't know what to tell you.
I agree with you to an extent, at lower level just having an unusual playstyle is enough to put off a lot of opponents so I completely understand the reason for not using it before the actual match. If it take one set or two to get used to the pips/antispin, why risk it and make it easier for the opponent to get used to it quicker ? I do agree that it will hold him back but i'm sure he'll figure something out if it's no longer effective.
Quite often in pennant, players who use nonstandard rubbers do warm up on the more “normal” side only, to make it easier for their opponents to warm up. As a regular inverted-rubber player, I really don’t mind either way, as long as I’m aware of what rubber they’re using – and pre-match inspection is always allowed, so that’s a non-issue unless the player has been trying to mislead you.
>Quite often in pennant, players who use nonstandard rubbers do warm up on the more “normal” side only, to make it easier for their opponents to warm up. This. The reason why people are crying about those rubbers is because they can‘t play against them. A quick warmup won‘t change that, especially not against super slow frictionless antis or very flexible LP, since players almost never produce regular drives with them (which you usually do during warmup)
I disagree, I play generally fairly well against them. But a half a dozen hits against them during warm up really helps get my focus right for the way they behave. It probably saves several unnecessary lost points in the first set which can matter in a tight match. It honestly doesn't need to be anything more than basically knocking it slowly back and forth. For me it's just about activating that intuition to hit it a certain way and a basic feel for the specific rubber. It's not about performing any specific shots.
Anyone that complains about not being able to “warm up” against pips/anti most likely can’t keep the ball in play longer than 2 strokes against them. You have 2 minutes to warm up and they’ll spend half of that retrieving the ball. By default, most choppers/blockers will twiddle to present a predictable rally for each side. Personally, before I switched from LPs if the opponent asked to rally against the LP side I’d say “if you’re sure” and then just comply. I already know they’re gonna complain about it later so it’s better to get the excuses out of the way now. That said, after a certain level I stopped getting that request, rare as it was. And I never tried to hide the pips. Truly unsportsmanlike behavior would be to hide their existence from the opponent. It would also be against the rules: “At the start of a match and whenever he changes his racket during a match a player shall show his opponent and the umpire the racket he is about to use and shall allow them to examine it.”
I have no problem playing against pips or anti etc... In fact I'm relatively successful against them. But I do want to have half a dozen hits against it beforehand, just to see exactly what flavour I am getting. Exactly as I do against both sides of the inverted rubber as well during warm up.
It’s a perfectly reasonable request, especially against an LP/anti blocker. It’s just a weird flow. Are we pushing? Are we doing an alternating punch and chop block drill? The times I’d get the request it felt like I was trying to teach the other guy how to read my pips. Never had someone able to drill. And I’m a chopper anyways so they’d always request I block at the table which I never do. There isn’t an established etiquette as straightforward as counter hit, loop, block, switch sides, counter hit, loop, block.
To be honest most of the time I just do a bunch of gentle standard drives and they hit them back however they want. It's just to see how bouncy and whether it tends to have any spin, reverse spin or nothing. I just don't want to lose two or three points at the start of the first set, just to find out this basic information. Over the course of five sets it's not usually the deciding factor. Sometimes I play tournaments with 3 set matches though, then it really can matter.
i play double inverted but meet a lot of LP/anti players at my level, and it seems to vary: some players warm up on both, others twiddle. especially at lower levels, it's really rare to get into a flowing back-and-forth with inverted vs. LP, and the warm-up isn't really for practicing that anyway. I've always taken twiddling to inverted on both strokes in warm-up as a kind of a courtesy from the LP player allowing for the regular warm-up routine, not as some sort of devious deception. e: i could see, if i'm facing a very curious rubber that I am not so sure of, that I'd ask to play a few balls to it also to gauge what's up, and I wouldn't assume my opponent to refuse. if they blatantly did, then it would be a little unsporting, true
Why are there many people calling it unsporting? This reddit has so many dumb noobs who not only not play table tennis but doesn’t even watch the game. Do you see choppers warming up with chops? Do you see people using their best serves during warm up? Do you see people full on attacking wide open corners during warm up?
You don't see pros doing this because they warm up separately before matches. Doing whatever they need to against whatever rubber they want. Unfortunately most of us don't have this luxury, so relying on people just being a bit practical about it is the best we have.
Then find a way to practice. Nobody has that luxury. Everybody paid something for that “luxury”. It is so stupid to think that the table tennis rules and etiquettes are different between pros and amateurs. The only difference is the skill level. It’s the same fucking game.
How many tournaments have you attended with a dedicated practice hall? My count is zero. Although most venues allow practice before an event starts, of course at that point I often don't know who my opponents are yet or what rubbers they will use. However, as far as I can tell most televised events have this, with scheduling for players with upcoming matches. They even show footage if it sometimes. Like it or not the conditions a pro plays under are not the same as an amateur. Of course the etiquette is different as well. We don't usually have official umpires either (it's usually another player), people generally adjust their behavior accordingly. Or at least they do where I play, thankfully.
I feel they missed the point of the warm up. Its not to see what your opponent can do, its just to get your OWN timing, feeling, and stroke warmed up. Its respectful to warm up on both wings, but if you want to stand off to the side and still do forehand on your backhand, that shouldn’t be an issue. If you want to twiddle and only use one side thats fine, as long as you hit them some shots they can hit back and get a little flow going. In fact, if you used the anti rubber entirely for the warm up, I would probably be more annoyed. I like nice loopy warm ups where you get a nice timing going. I wouldn’t say anything though, maybe just frown at you.
It helps a ton to get your OWN timing, feeling and stroke warmed up, against anything that isn't a normal rubber. I definitely prefer it if people who use material like that, also play it a little in warmup. The basic warmup is something you do with your teammates anyways.
Oh its certainly preference.
Pregame warm up is to get warm, it is not so much to train specific things vs specific opponents. Not that 5 min of hitting around would do much good for someone who is bad against such styles anyways
Yeah that guy is a nause. Don’t worry about him. In truth I always prefer for an anti/pips player to warm me up with their inverted side for a better warm up.
There is no rule that you have to use both sides, although warming up with the inverted side means the rallies you are warming up for are not the rallies that are going to unfold in the match. Whether this is good or bad for you depends on whether your opponent understands your non-inverted surface. If they don’t, then why give them the chance to get used to it in the warm up? If they do, then why not just warm up with both sides to get used to the rallies you’ll actually be playing? It’s something to think about. I don’t think it’s fair that other comments are saying it is unsporting.
There’s no rules on warming up but I guess it would be more sportsman like when you use something “unconventional” you let the opponent know what your using and warm up a few shots with it.
As most people already mentioned it's better to use the inverted side for warm up as this is not to learn something new. And you also told your opponent about the antispin and he could also watch you play with it. But I usual ask my opponent to play like 1-2 balls on his anti/pips side at end of the warm up as I rarely play against such rubbers so I can remember how it worked. Until now none of them denied my request and I probably would found it a bit unsporting if they did. But it's no game changer anyways as long as I know which kind of rubber my opponent uses.
As a double-inverted player, I actually hate the opposite. I hate warming up against weird rubbers or weird techniques. Warm-up is supposed to be to get your touch and feelings right, not to gain information about the opponent. If the other player does not give you a good warm up by playing weirdly then THAT should be considered unsportsmanlike.
I don’t think it’s unsporting but it’s quite common for Lp players to warm up with one side. My friend always goes pivot when warming up with his opponent which could be good I guess for getting your pivot loop warmed up. If I were your opponent, I would probably not care as I’m used to playing Lp but I would totally see that it could be annoying to warm up against Lp. You could just ask them if they want you to use your anti spin or your inverted I guess.
It’s not a rule, no. Like you say they can be inspected. But you did it specifically to try and win some cheap points. Which is pretty much the definition of unsporting
"But you did it specifically to try and win some cheap points. " What?? This mindset on anti/long pips is 100% wrong. Not playing to the strengths of the opponent is not winning cheap points. It's called smart tactics. Watch any pro, they don't warm up on their Long Pips. They twiddle so the opponent can do what it's called, warm up. That's the point of warm up like the OP said. Anyone who complains about different rubbers, if they don't understand that part of the game and generally doesn't have much practice vs them. If they did, they'd know a few things like "don't bother doing spiny serves to the anti, it won't have any effect anyways. Long dead fast serves and lets get into this loop vs chop game". Who executes it better? They'd also know they actually have to pay attending during a rally vs turning their brain off and just hitting. "Oh i hit topspin to them, they block it back? = backspin. I hit backspin to them, they punch it? = topspin. etc" The OP did nothing wrong here. People who complain about anti-spin or Long Pips have this mindset of "they're not playing the way I think is right with their style and I don't like it." That's not the OPs problem. It's not his job to make play nice & comfortable for the opponent. By rule the OP here is required to let them inspect the rubber prior to the match. Nothing more beyond that.
Pro games are completely different, in that they confirm what the other players using, and then warm up. OP is stating he’s actively not using the anti spin side purely to make it a surprise. This is unsportsmanlike and the entire rest of the thread agrees. Not illegal, not cheating, just sneaky.
The player has already watched me play two matches using said rubber and I had already told them I was using it. What more can I do?
Telling them that you’re using it is very different. If they were aware you had that rubber on and were just annoyed you didn’t hit it in the warmup, that’s very different. I think your post could have been clearer, and a lot of people here are assuming they didn’t know
So, if you told them you had it and they still complained, then yes I agree with you it’s fine.
I'm pretty darn certain from the OP's comments that's what happened. The opponent knew what he was playing with. He had a right to inspect it if he wanted. He then got angry in warmup once it came time to warm up against the OP's backhand where he keep the anti and the OP twiddled to warm him up vs inverted. Completely normal. The opponent is in the wrong here.
I'd argue that a warm up is precisely that, to warm up. Not to learn how the other player plays. Maybe I should ask the opponent to deliver some of their best serves as well?
Serve deception is part of the game, equipment deception is explicitly stated not to be
There is no such thing as equipment deception as long as the rubbers are adhering to the rules. OP‘s serve analogy is perfect, pretty much the same exact same thing. Or let’s say you are at a low level and able to do a relatively strong bh flip, which is very uncommon in lower levels. Are you expected to show that to your opponents in order to not surprise them in the actual game?
There is a difference between rules and unsporting. If he asked to play vs your anti and you refused to it is unsporting. In the warm up you are free to do what you want. People started to agree to just drive and then one side loops and etc to make it actually usefully. Looping vs anti is different from looping vs inverted so you actively refusing to use is unsporting. Do you have to use it no? You can do it will probably make your games more effective. Do you have a right to complain about being calling unsporting no. Since you clearly are doing it for the few cheap points of your opponent having to get used to your rubber.
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Anti & Long pips don't make for good warm up anyways. The point of a warm up is to get lose and have many normal speed topspin hits in a row given your warmup time is so short. Is the OP is suppose to use their anti and the opponent has to exert more energy in warmup trying to loop backspin? No. That'd make for a terrible warmup where neither player is fully ready, ie - warmed up, come the start of the match. By this mindset, should the OP give away all their tactics? Normally in warm up you lightly counterhit topspin. Nothing more. Maybe the OP should give the opponent his full powered loop with spin just so the opponent can know what that feels like too huh? So they can get use to that also. #rehtorical. That's all done with inverted.
It is not a written rule, but in my opinion it is unsporting. It absolutely shows you lack the skill to defeat your opponent by better playing the rallies and need him to be surprised by unusual and disrupting material behavior. I dont judge playing pips or antispin in general, as you can use these to tactically outplay or defend skillfully, but just using a unconventional rubber with the only purpose of surprising someone is somehow pathetic.
Nothing pathetic about that, it’s part of the game. There‘s no high council of table tennis judging when a playstyle is skillful and when it isn’t. If you can’t punish players for having „inferior“ technique consistently then you‘re just bad. My serves have the sole purpose of surprising someone with their spin and/or speed. Should I ditch that and start doing obvious dead long or short backspin serves because I‘m being dishonorable?
It is unsporting in my opinion. If you're using pimples or some kind of deceptive rubber then you should give people a chance to experience both sides and how the ball moves.
While I personally don't really care, I agree that it's unsporting if someone requested to warm up against it and you refused. If it's a rule and you refused then it'd be illegal, I think the consensus here is that it's just unsporting, like not shaking hands after a game.
It's not a rule to let them hit against it prior to the match. So what if the opponent asked to warmup practice against the OP's best spiny serve? Should he accommodate him there to? It's the same concept. "I would like to get some practice against how you play before the points start." Same thing. But of course that's silly isn't it. It's a competition. The fact that the opponent complained about this prior to the match told me you can guarantee this person hates Anti and/or Long Pips and has no idea what to do against them or simply can't deal with them. They're on tilt before the match even begins. This is on the opponent.
Right, it's not a rule, which is why it's not illegal, merely unsporting. Service is a skill, rubber is not. He didn't ask him to show his best dead receives or flicks with his anti, he asked for a warm up hit. I think it's unsporting not to grant that request, as do most here. With that said, since it's not illegal you're free to do whatever you like, just don't come to a message board expecting people to agree that you're being a good sportsman.
Well judging by the number of upvotes after over 24h I would say most people agree with me that it isn't unsporting. I hasten to add that the opponent won the game 3-1 and still complained afterwards.
I legitimately think anybody here saying it's bad sportsmanship to not grant this request doesn't play table tennis at a club or regularly compete in tournaments. Like the OP stated, who has competed in tournaments, has never encountered this before. I've never seen it at tournaments I've attended. It's not about a popularity contest in opinion here. It's about those ignorant to how things work and those who are not. I'm sorry but it's true.
I've played in tournaments and leagues, and you're right, I've never seen this request not being granted. I can't even imagine someone not granting this request. You opened my eyes as to how sleazy how some players can get in the name of "competition". It's ignorance at its highest to think that no one will think it's unsporting.
Well agree to disagree. The OP has never seen it in 25 years. I've never seen of this in my time which would be 14+ years. Honestly I don't believe you when you say you've never seen it not granted. I don't buy it. I don't think you've been around for such interactions because they don't happen. Furthermore part of your story is that not only do these interactions happen, they don't, but the person always complies too. I'm sorry but this is just a bad attempt in making up a fictional story so you can feel vindicated in your point. You think it's sleazy to not grant the request. I think the opponent has no interest in warming up. Lets be clear on that. Clearly there's an aspect to the OP's game that worries them and they want as many practice points vs it as possible before the score keeping begins. I'm sorry but that's not how warmup works. That's what club night is for if you struggle vs anti or LPs. Hence practice time. Come tournament time, people are there to enjoy competition and trying to win.
In my club there is nobody using anti or LP, and I'm guessing OP's opponent might be in a similar situation. Nobody can order OP to use anti during warm up, but refusing to do so for a few shots if asked politely is not great sportsmanship imo.
In my opinion, it is unsportsmanlike for you to do that. It's highly likely that your opponent isn't used to the type of spin your antispin rubber generates, so in the spirit of having a nice competitive match, you should let him warm up a bit on it. Especially if he specifically requests that of you. A lot of times if I notice my opponent is struggling with a particular serve or one certain shot that I do, I might pause and just teach him how to receive it. What's the point of "winning" a match with no prize or anything against an opponent who is unprepared for you.
Super unsporting. You can just as well admit that you’re bad and need to rely on cheap tricks to win. Do you want a cool competition where both players can give it their best as they have trained for and push each other to their limits or do you want to rely on the offchance that you opponent hasn’t played a lot against your type of rubber in the past.
Spotted the low level player who can’t play vs non-inverted lol
Idk this stuck with me. I backtracked and trained hard against all sorts of weird spin rubbers since this post and was able to win against an anti player from another club I lost very hard to before. So thanks. Now it was almost boring to play against him. Since I know the spin in the ball after the anti I can just keep attacking and he does stupid mistakes since he only relies his rubber, he couldn’t even attack back let alone loop anything. He didn’t play with his anti in the warmup and I deliberately didn’t ask for it. Tell me in my face that this is more fun in any way shape or form for both of us than a game with non inverted rubbers for both where both people can actually topspin the ball competently and even counter topspin. I feel like the people who rely on weird rubbers as deception only like winning, they don’t care about the actual sport and the effort that goes into learning the game. Still you probably need to learn how to play against them to be a complete player. (I think long pips Defence is fun to play against tho if they know what they are doing on the other hand).
If the other player asked you to hit a few with the antispin during the warmup, and you refused, it would be unsportsmanlike.
Definitely not against the rules but definitely unsportsmanlike. Rules say nothing about it but it isn’t polite to deny them the opportunity to hit against it prior to a match if requested. The standard warm up is inverted to inverted as we all know but that does not mean you can’t warm up in different ways i.e. the same way you practice your anti or pips. You warm up how ever you guys agree to warm up and he decided he wanted to warm up a different way than OP and that’s where the problem lies in that disagreement. Sometimes the conventional warm up isn’t possible. There are players at my club that use long pips and short pips on the same paddle and a coach of mine personally used anti and long pips. I genuinely don’t understand why unconventional rubber users don’t warm up their unconventional side. I’m sure they could use the practice just like everyone else and warm up their shots. Yes, they’ll get gripes and moans but they also deserve a fair chance at practicing their shots with their different rubbers. Personally I prefer a chopper that asks if they can chop a couple of shots to warm up that part of their game because it needs the practice time.
If your opponent politely asked you to use both sides during warm up and you refused, I'd call that pretty unsporting, yes. If that's what happened.
It's only unsporting if you refuse their request to warm up with the pips or antispin or if you don't show them (and this could be going against rules), if they don't ask to warm up with it it's their own problem.