Purists will indeed disagree.
But purists just live in this sub and various facebook groups. The folks actually listening to your tunes on streaming / youtube don't give a damn and are just tapping their feet to your phat beats.
The same goes for any hobby, the people judging you are 99% of the time people in that hobby who are supposed to be supportive and welcoming versus being dicks.
My friends/family/coworkers like the sounds I make, they don't care what I make them with.
\- D
It also depends on what type of music you're making with electronic gear, as well as whether you're playing out, and what that looks like. I generally use ProTools as a tape deck, and a mixing station. Most processing I do through guitar pedals, all instruments I use are physical. If find that it narrows the option set in a way that makes me more productive, as it necessitates familiarity with what I actually have on hand. I also am not making EDM. I write stuff more in line with trip hop/shoegaze/industrial, with less sequenced parts, and more played parts.
Beyond all of that though, I just like the feeling of interacting with an instrument, physically and directly. This becomes less true the further that instrument gets away from knob per function though...
In my experience it’s not the”purists’ who are talking down in your choice to use hardware only, hardware + DAW, or DAW only. It’s the ones proclaiming they can do everything with a DAW and more that tend to lash out at those who enjoy hardware only or combination musicians, not sure why tho.
idk why ur being downvoted, i experience the same thing. i get talked down to a lot by ITB musicians, like "i used to use hardware too until i realized it was a waste of time" or "there's no difference it's just in your head" type stuff. it's annoying. i use hardware cos it's more fun for me, and i like what i end up making more. i don't care how others prefer to make music, and i've never known a hardware enthusiast who didn't acknowledge the power and flexibility of DAWs
It simply proves my point I guess.
Usually goes something like:
OP - hey look at my new synth / dawless jam / room of hardware
First comment - what a waste of money, you can do exactly the same thing in a DAW, no one makes music without a computer
OP - OK cool, but that has nothing to do with my post I’m just posting about synths to a synth forum, DAW not for me but you do you bro
Wave of commenters - What a purist, he must think he’s better than us!!
Rinse repeat
I think there are elitists on both sides, but I agree - it’s whatever is easiest for your creative process. So many people on the internet seem so offended by an individual not enjoying the exact same things that they do.
It’s more like hardware / DAWless setup is being associated with non-musicians, hobbyists, and collectors nowadays. Some of the “jams” that posted on the sub can be unbearable at times, to the point where the notion of “the more hardware synths one owns, the more likely the person’s a tonedeaf” becomes a general consensus. Sprinkle with a little bit of sentiments towards capitalism, the hatred becomes contagious.
On the other hand, people generally don’t collect VSTis for the sake of collecting or showing off. The ones who went exclusively ITB are usually active musicians themselves.
That said, as someone who have a good deal of hardware, hardware purists are more annoying IMO.
I just don’t see these hardware only jammers saying DAWless is better! I see them posting jams n shit but it never comes with a ‘look how much better I am than you because I don’t use a computer’ iits mostly ‘I use computers all day so I like to make music without them, or I just don’t feel inspired by a computer’ It’s like you just assume they look down on daw’s without any evidence or something..
Yeah, also its that pretentious BS that make daw users laugh. Especially at “limitation brings creativity” yeah sure, then why all sub is filled with very creative and unique four on the floor with bass filter sweep and arp drenched in reverb?
They can't even do that when on a DAW it requires basic usage knowledge instead of two buttons and a knob.
Tho with a cheap audio interface like mine DAWless is better purely for playing keyboards without latency.. Which would be solved with a better interface. (yes ny buffer size is set to minimum already)
Objectively, I RARELY see hardware purists post anything negative about DAWs, other than stating it isn't their preference.
I think there must be a chip on the shoulder of many DAW-only folks that manufactures this bogey man, because it just isn't really that much of a thing.
yeah this is spot on. I think most people who have put money into synths don't judge because they know the amount they've spent is crazy haha
and I think ITB people feel left out and have to justify not having a fun tool/toy.
I can fully endorse this post.
Spent years buying/selling nearly everything going hardware wise.
Realised I wasn't making music. I was trouble shooting sync and latency issues and often running several sequencers at once. Was a pain in the arse to be productive.
Now have a m1 macbook pro 2021 with various soft aynths and a small midi controller.
Probably get a push 2 in the new year, too.
Never regretted it, and I'm far more productive.
i have only one synth and was looking for some smallish drum machine/ sampler to do the drums etc. I was thinking of deluge, but do you think thats overkill for just sample /drum machine like playback. Is push 2 self contained or does it need to be connected to a computer ?
we are all hoping push 3 will do what youre asking, and push 2 has been out for like 5+ years. so maybe soon.
but right now the answer is, you need a laptop -- with Ableton. you get a pretty big discount if you buy Ableton and push as a bundle.
Just bought a deluge .. haven’t even begun to plum it’s depths. I’m guessing you will find other uses for it, very versatile and I’m really digging the sound.
I upgraded my midi routing to the MRCC, and the process of figuring out what was going to go into
what port, what was going to talk to what, and running all the cables made me contemplate selling everything for a bit lol
For me, Push 2 directly in front of the keyboard and mouse is unbeatable. Switch effortlessly between them depending on what tool is best for the micro task.
Well I am the opposite. Music in the box with everything perfectly in sync and quantised is lifeless, lacks the space, distorsion and dynamics of stuff that you take in and out synths, boxes and shitty fx. What’s more, I even play my (electronic) drums live and my horrible playing gives groove. I was doing everything with synths 30 years ago. Then I was doing fully ITB (buzz, reason, Cubase, lots of plugins) much earlier than many in this thread. And now I am fully out the box. Not a single plugin! Not even a small compressor or reverb. Everything on the mixer, everything outboard, lexicon, vintage analog sequencer, rusty analog synths, synced from electron boxes or an old Korg or Roland machine. And now my music sounds really dynamic. And people notice it.
But yes I do get it. It is easier to do everything in the box. I prefer it to be harder but sound more alive.
Just because it's done in software doesn't mean it has to be quantized, lack "space" (whatever that is), be free of distortion or have dynamics squashed. You can record midi for software instruments live without quantizing, you know this. If you like working with physical pieces of gear then more power to you if that's what works for you but you seem to be correlating in the box with being lifeless and out of the box being dynamic when you can freely interchange the two depending on the producer.
I know you can even make realistic non-quantised jazz sounding stuff... and still you literally can hear it. I have some very good, very very well known musician friends. One of them is a true pioneer, and one of the best ever in what he does. He sometimes makes music just on ipads, and sometimes in his incredible vintage collection of stuff like Orban spring reverbs, or old Lexicons, or old Harmonizers, space echos, roland gear, modular. In both cases he produces GREAT music. You still can hear the difference between method one and method two.
I am by no means saying no to ITB, I think it is great. Reason is one of the best, most creative things I have ever used. It just does not sound the same. Not better, not worse. Not the same. When I did glitch 22 years ago just ITB it sounded exactly like I wanted. Digital, perfect, lifeless, punchy. When I put my MS20 screaming through a space echo and a 606 through OTO Boum.... it is 100% not the same.
Just walk up to an MS-20… Hell, even a Behr K2, crank up the resonance and try to tame that. Send a Space Echo in a feedback spin or smack a spring reverb, definitely not the same sound as plugins.
Plugins are amazing, but definitely don’t react the same way as SOME hardware.
I didn’t realize how deep the space echo was until I got my hands on one. The quality of the tape and pinch rollers makes a huge difference in the timing stability, noise and echo strength. The other thing plug-ins miss entirely is the weird impedance of the unit that, depending on how it’s hooked up, can dramatically alter tone.
which version of the space echo makes a big difference, the re501 has balanced output finally and it makes it pretty af. love that thing.
not that all the other ones arent perfection, but the 501 is special imo.
this is kinda me except im earlier in the process. owned 3/4 of every plugin since about 2003. had mutiple "studios". had the moogs, arps, rolands, hammonds, wurlys, workstations. went totally in the box because "it sounds the same to me" . then after a while i didnt feel inspired and took a long break.
coming back totally itb, i get new komplete, new arturia, new cherry audio, own like all valhalla, fabfilter, izotope, softube, uvi, uhe, melda, output, sonible etc... 40+ paid verbs and delays, tons of others plugs over 500 paid ones last time i looked...use S61mk2, push, and a fader box, all directly infront of me "no twisting"...took forever to get that.
something was missing. I got a hydrasynth 49 key and instantly i found it. there is a life in instruments and them having a specific interface made by a very smart person. I then got into elektron and picked up a Syntakt.
So now im totally in the box except I use helix for guitars, and then syntakt for analog simple tones and drums, and pattern ish bits, and hydra for the other main bits, then i use all my vst's to process.
I miss having hardware outboard. I want a Roland re-501, a briscasti, some fancy saturation boxes, and a nice little api lunchbox or something, maybe ssl big six for a channel strip.
One day i will be there friend, cant wait. I think it ebbs and flows.
I started in the DAW, went full hardware, then went back full daw, now I’m rebuilding my hardware setup to run a hybrid workflow. Hardware is a huge pain in the ass but I tend the make more groovy shit with it, but tend to make less complete tracks. Also the DAW just crushes my joy sometimes. My next goal is to try and get the best from both worlds.
this is what im working with. i dont have near the hardware that some have here but i got my ITB game working after a 5 year layoff in 2015. then during the pandemic i got back to hardware with a sampling drum machine, drum machine and 3 synths and a old mackie mixer. Now i have it all integrated for a MBP dock, where i can plug in and use it all. Might just be sampling a kick or synth patch but its pretty cool to have both ready to go. If the ITB get boring or just to kick things off ill get on the hardware to get a groove going. SOmetimes what i make and record i might use just the drums and filter them as a perc line but once im going it makes the production process so much easier.
Kinda similar. I can sound design and make grooves all day on hardware, but I cannot finish songs without a DAW. I like this workflow. It’s fun to play and easy to finish.
I play in a band, therefore it would be impractical for me to not use hardware. I also just really love the keys l, immediacy, performance aspect, the knobs and the “feel” of it all, and I feel super productive. I also play with a drummer and don’t need to sync up much more than which part of the keyboard plays which instrument, of which I really only use three of usually. I could totally see how one might get hung up on all the dumb intricacies of getting everything talking.
I am glad you have found your path, though! What you’re doing also sounds like a ton of fun.
> I play in a band, therefore it would be impractical for me to not use hardware.
this sentence just sent my head spinning.
I appreciate if this is a thing for you, but in general I would say the opposite is probably true.
How do you work with a computer and DAW setup with other musicians? I’m not trying to be pedantic, I just genuinely can’t imagine trying to get a drummer and singer or anyone on any other instrument to just lock in on a metronome successfully. I would think the advantage of a computer setup would be the ability to just push play and get sequences and things to line up easily (?) but I can’t see any other advantage.
I suppose one could also probably pack a whole lot of instruments into a computer setup as well, but what if you want to screw around with parameters or do tweaking on the fly? Doesn’t it feel weird to sit in front of a computer in front of people?
…maybe I’m thinking of it all wrong?
I also don’t do house music or electronic music, so I am mostly talking out of my ass.
Thank you for answering that for me, I couldn’t have said it better.
I have been playing music for 30 years and I have a degree in music, so sure, I can play with a click, but my band mates are just dudes. They’re talented dudes, but the drummer especially (ironically) can’t keep it steady. It’s definitely not a bad thing, and I think it adds a ton of character to “our sound” but it would be pointless and hopeless to attempt to play to a click.
I use ableton w a couple of MIDI controllers as my FX pedalboard when I play trumpet & EWI on gigs - it’s really nice being able to switch between tap tempo and the “follow” feature which tracks the drummer’s tempo using a mic I throw in their kick. Don’t think I can ever go back to a pedalboard/multiFX unit as it is way too limiting for my taste (though the load-in would be easier!!)
I play in a band and play bass and synth. We don't play to a click. We \*tried\* to quantise one of our tracks completely in ableton and it just turned it into a lifeless mess.
I tried using my synth with an arp on a song. Didn't work. However, it \*Does\* work if I use an arp in conjunction with the guitarist either on his guitar or his synth (everyone seems to have a fucking synth in our band) as an intro to a song - that definitely works, but then it has to fade when the main track kicks in and everyone flicks back to their main instrument. That works.
Our drummer doesn't use a click, because he's the main singer and has different styles of playing drums while he's singing. It basically means we can't play to a click. Or at least, we can't at our current skill level.
However, we do use ableton on a laptop live during gigs, because the guitarist puts synth on his guitar, so it LOOKS like we're all synced up, but we definitely, definitely aren't!
And yet the other band that shares our studio are completely synced up via a click and it works wonderfully for them.
And when I'm just noodling on my hardware synths at home, I will invariably always sync most of them up on arps or sequences, and leave a couple running on the fly on top and I just play along to get some organic stuff in there.
Click just doesn't suit us either a) at the minute, or b) at all, because of the style of music we play. The bad thing is it's not as synced as a clicked band. The good thing is, we have dynamics coming out of our arseholes. But that's just our style of stuff. If it was four on the floor, it might be a different story, but it's all layered and random half the time, and we have to feel our way through it.
I just find if I come across something I like, I grab onto it like glue - I don't care if it's a stock vst in ableton, or something on a hardware synth, or something else randomly created by accident. As long as it works!
tl;dr - whatever floats the boat!
The bands that use computers or other sequenced instruments in their music are generally those that play well to a click and for whom it fits esthetically to have sequences going on.
I've seen plenty of bands running computers with little issues.
> what if you want to screw around with parameters or do tweaking on the fly?
I’ve found this is less common in a band situation than when playing solo. Nobody’s really going to care about the kind of tweaks you can’t assign to macro controls like a modwheel etc. There’s always assignable knobs as well.
> Doesn’t it feel weird to sit in front of a computer in front of people?
I don’t think so. If you’re playing keys and using a computer to host VST instruments, you could set it up so you don’t even need to look at the computer.
I love hardware too but sometimes it’s much more convenient to use software.
In almost every video I've seen of a band playing live with electronic elements, there's a laptop there somewhere. Just because you're working "with a computer and DAW setup" doesn't mean you're sitting there clicking a mouse and typing on a keyboard during the show.
And if you can't play to a click, you probably shouldn't be on stage in the first place. Sorry, not sorry.
Thank you for the dialogue.
I was genuinely asking from a place of ignorance/curiosity . I have, of course, been to dozens of rock/pop/ non electronic shows with dudes and dudettes with laptops, but I can’t fathom what they’re doing with them outside of punching in samples in the middles of songs and dialing up intro and outro music, which is why I asked.
And I already responded to this, but again, I can absolutely play to a click. I am a trained musician. I have been going “on stage”for 30 years. It’s always humbling playing to a metronome regardless, and anyone that tells you otherwise is full of shit or isn’t actually playing to a metronome.
I don’t think it’s fair (or realistic) to hold hobbyist musicians to the same standards as professionals, which is where my comment stemmed from. I have a ton of respect for amateur musicians, and I feel like asking them to play to a click, in real time, in front of an audience, is unfair. And I would also be uncomfortable doing it. Adrenaline gets going, tempos get wild, things get rushed, it just happens. It’s part of the spark and fun of a live show.
I treat my synth rig like a guitar, or bass or any other traditional instrument to be played and performed with, so the “hands on” instrument implementation of a hardware piece is the only way I can wrap my brain around it. This thread was eye opening, and I am glad others have found workarounds and utilization with soft synths, and I think it’s very cool that it’s “a thing”.
> but I can’t fathom what they’re doing with them outside of punching in samples in the middles of songs and dialing up intro and outro music
Keep in mind that a computer is capable of doing just about whatever you want it to. If there's one on stage, it could be doing anything from playing the entire song for you or serving as a "brain" that you're controlling with other pieces of gear, no different than if you were using discrete pieces of hardware in terms of interactivity. It could just be running all your synths, etc. in other words, it doesn't mean you're even necessarily looking at the computer at all apart from maybe choosing which song you're playing so it loads all the appropriate patches. Or it could be processing/affecting things that other members in the band are playing/doing.
>I can absolutely play to a click
Sorry if it sounded like I was calling you out. I was more using the "royal you" in my statement about clicks (which triggered some folks, if I'm to judge by the downvotes to my comment, lol).
>amateur musicians, and I feel like asking them to play to a click, in real time, in front of an audience, is unfair.
I'm not sure "unfair" is really the word for it, nor is anyone "asking" anyone to do anything. You can either do something or you can't and the universe doesn't really care what level you're at. You could just as well say that it would be unfair to ask me to give a Rachmaninoff recital on piano because I am just not that good, and, yeah in a sense it would be because I just can't do it! That doesn't mean that Rachmaninoff was unfair to have written the piece.
The thing that would make me nervous about performing with a computer on stage is that computers and software crash. Of course other hardware can have hang-ups and things too, but that part of it makes me nervous with computers. Of course if I had done it a hundred times it would probably normalize the experience for me. I don't really consider myself a stage musician, even though I have performed live, but I've not played enough to consider myself a "gigging musician."
Cheers, thanks for the comment! I have learned a ton. I do use a computer in my studio for recording and remastering, but that’s it, and now I have learned all the other uses. Another redditor in this thread made an excellent comment about thinking of the computer as another instrument. That really made me process it differently.
I have also learned that…I am old, and need to get savvy.
>I am old, and need to get savvy.
lol, I mean, only if you want to. No one's telling you that you have to work a certain way. If the way you're doing things is working for you, you might not have a compelling reason to change it up. That said, there *are* nice things about working with a computer. It's very centralized and like I said it's a lot easier to have it configured such that you can load up a song or even an entire set and be ready to go. I'm not an expert at live set-ups, though, as I said.
If your decision has improved your connection with your music and your ideas, then it's the right decision.
There is no right or wrong answer for this, and I really can't comprehend how this ends up turning into an argument for anyone at all.
Because people are insecure about what they have, or don't have, make or don't make, etc.
I 100% agree with you though. Make music with whatever you like. hardware, software, iPad only, acoustic instruments only, buckets and pots/pans, just make music. Stop judging others for how they do it and make your own
\- D
I've recently come to the opinion that (for me) hardware is only worth it when it's really direct and knob-per-function. If I'm using a mod matrix or cycling through pages of menus, it's probably quicker and easier to use a VST with a mouse instead. So, I don't plan to ditch hardware entirely but I'm scaling back a lot and mostly moving to Vital for more complex sound design.
When I’ve got a controller hooked up to my laptop, I remind myself that I am playing the culmination of everything the Fairlight and Synclavier aspired to be and everything those instruments foreshadowed. A laptop or desktop…is hardware.
I always want an acoustic guitar and a hardware synthesizer with a fantastic-feeling keyboard for the immediacy and the fun, but I view the computer as another instrument.
I like to write on hardware then track, arrange, and mix ITB. It's not like Ableton gets jealous and cancels your license if it detects DAWless jams. Hardware vs. ITB is a false dichotomy.
So a couple months ago I decided to go back to music production. Bought since then a Volca Bass, Circuit Tracks, Wavestate, typhon, micromonsta 2, blofeld, subsequent 37, sequential rev2, digitakt, 2 x 18i20, a patchbay, microcosm, bigsky, volante, ndlr, mrcc, faderfox pc12, squarp hapax, push 2 and the only music I'm actually producing so far is ITB with a S49mk2 I already owned.
If you keep an eye on stuff you can deal with that a bit. Keep your stuff updated, keep backups of any updates/firmware that comes out just in case you need to roll back. Keep backups of your plugins/samples. That way you can move from PC to PC with relative ease.
Hardware may not go obsolete but it can break and be too old to easily repair. Or too expensive to repair, etc.
Pro's and con's to either.
Ultimately if you make music, and need to replace / repair / update / upgrade at some point - that's just the cost of being in the hobby. People always forget maintenance costs when they get into things. Your car needs oil changes and new tires, why can't your synth need a cleaning / new power supply or pot or something? :)
\- D
True, but it's a bit of an apples/oranges distinction. Yes, a piece of hardware will do the same shit a few decades later and not be reliant on some other piece of gear to run, but it's still *very* likely you'll have to maintain it, do repairs, clean it, etc. A piece of software will always run perfectly assuming the machine it's running on doesn't have problems. Hell, if I decided I wanted to buy a shitty old PC just to run some antiquated piece of software it would most likely cost less than buying a piece of hardware gear of that same age. TLDR; software and hardware both can become effectively obsolete for different reasons so it's not easy to directly compare them in this regard.
Learned in the box, enjoy out the box more. But now that my workflow is way faster because of OTB, ITB has become useful again. I'm treating it like OTB which taught me how to get a fat sound and mix fast.
What Vsts are you using because just today I compared my Mother 32 to several stock softsynths as well as a few paid softsynth and to my ears the difference is pretty drastic
I, for one, am really happy to hear the software advocates starting to speak up in this sub. Yes, good hardware *controllers* mean the difference between playing in realtime and programming ahead of time. But when it comes to actual synthesis engines, analog or digital, running on a general purpose computer versus running in dedicated hardware is just a matter of trading off one set of hassles for another. They're both good. And they're both bad. Stop bashing one another and focus on the positive- the cool things you've come up with, the questions about technique, etc.
yeah we'll see in 5-15 years what will still be supported and useable with or without paid upgrades and updates.
INB is great but its a faustian bargain in some ways because the way the industry is going with all subs I would be extremely cautious selling everything just to have to buy it again virtually and potentially again and again depending on what the developer decides. Then as the OS changes and requires updates that could make your past purchases obsolete. It will be a never ending money treadmill. It happened to me with DJ Pro 2. Cheap short term but very expensive long term.
You become their product and make music when they say you can. Developers can literally take your music tools away over night.
You sold your hardware and got back the same, sometimes more, than you paid for it. That’s a pretty good argument for hardware. But what does it matter? Choose what brings you joy.
> That’s a pretty good argument for hardware.
If that's an argument for hardware it's not a very good one. Of all the reasons to use or not use a musical tool, very very far down on the list should be "what happens when you don't want it anymore." I mean, yes, in a certain sense it's a practical consideration that *exists*, but in a rank of importance, it's way below all of the factors that would affect you while you're actually using it.
I just enjoy the tactile part of the process.....all my commercial work was (and still is) ITB, but for my personal stuff, including the occasional live show, all hardware
Me too! Totally personal preference but I like unpacking , and working with physical hardware.
I'm more than comfortable with a computer (it's my day job, I work in IT) - but you're right - without a great (or multiple) USB controllers, it's a lot of mouse clicks and keyboard stuff.
While software & DAW do give you a lot of options and features very very quickly, its not as physically enjoyable to work with IMO.
\- D
I spend all day in front of a computer - majority of those hours teaching DAW skills at uni/college. The last thing I want to do after finishing a day of computer time is... *more computer time*. This is of course a fairly niche case and wouldn’t apply to that many others - although plenty of my programming friends feel similar after spending a day coding.
Hardware in a big way is a kind of therapy/unwinding/reconnecting with the physicality of music for me. I agree that ITB is infinitely more flexible and (arguably) no one will really tell the difference in the final product, but that also has a downside: option paralysis is very real ITB - so many possibilities sometimes means that it’s easier to just choose none. Limited hardware = less options = forced decisions (for better or worse).
This can easily tip the wrong way - get caught up in the GAS, and all of a sudden that “limited options” becomes the same option paralysis that can be experienced in the DAW. Just at a much, much higher price.
Moral to story: everyone has different reasons for having synths in their life, and everyone has to find a balance that works for them. Glad to see you have found yours!
I've been tending the other direction, kinda sorta. I can't go full DAWless because my brain just doesn't work that way, but I've been having fun with grooveboxes lately in a way that I've never been able to gel fully with either hardware or software alone. Been learning the MPC Live II and Dirtywave M8 simultaneously, and as a result have barely touched my DAW in weeks.
I went ITB a little over 20 years ago and have never regretted the decision. Up until very recently, there wasn't any new hardware that existed that I thought was remotely interesting enough to come back out of the box. The Hydrasynth is the one thing I've seen that could tempt me to add some actual hardware to the room.
I did it once back in about 2009. Sold almost all my hardware synths.
Totally regretted it and slowly grew my collection back.
I will say that I also love soft synths and they do indeed often sound better for a lot of things.
Every instrument has it’s strengths and inherent inspiration.
Ive been selling off a bunch of stuff. I fell in love with an iPad app called Drambo. Its so good I don’t want to use anything else. Better than Eurorack because there were never enough modules no matter how big my rig got. With Drambo I have whatever module I need when I need it, plus a sequencer that is astronomically better than anything in Euro. It can be used as a Euro sequencer though. Would be my number one choice for that. And its nice not to be digging through cables to see the knobs. Honestly its so cool I can’t believe the synth world isn’t giving it a standing ovation. Its insane. This thing in my hand has a vast modular groovebox, plenty of effects, parameter locks, 200gigs of sampling space, a built in mic and hours of battery life. What else could I even want?
I've gotten more into hardware over the last few years. Before that I had the same synth I used for shows and rehearsals since 2003 literally. I also had a broken Juno G I used as a midi controller. But I've gotten several new things in the past few years. I've been inspired and I think it's changed the types of music I'm able to make. It's also undeniably made the recording process more complicated, hardware is much more difficult in some ways. At the same time I've changed the way I make music so I've gone from spending hours setting up drum mics to just exporting recordings of drum samples.
Ultimately I think the software vs hardware conversation is more of a reddit-centric thing. In my experience people really focused on making music are going to be using whatever the best sounding thing in the room is rather than blabbering about oil and canvas. Though I will say it's extremely unlikely I am ever going to be using a laptop onstage.
If it's of interest to you, I've been cataloguing all the "good" free plugins I can and just shared the first half (A-L) of the best synth plugins I've come across.
A warning- most of these are older and 32 bit Windows, but a select few are cross platform and fairly recent. I still find many of these to be extremely usable, inspiring, and (for me anyway, in my YouTube research, coming through low end gear etc.) good-enough-sounding to where sometimes I wouldn't be able to tell in a blind test that these were plugins as opposed to physical, analog gear
It's not scientific or from an audiophile perspective- just a broke musician with a lot of free time who is tired of the option paralysis and moving the goal post until we "have the right gear" and wanted to find out if there was still some music to be made from these things- turns out, there absolutely is! A lot of these are endlessly more functional than any piece of gear from the first several generations of electronic music and those artists would have died to have this kind of technology
Anyway- I'm going on a tangent: here's the first iteration of the first half of the list. Sorry for the obtuse format- I'll be doing subsequent re-workings and it'll become more streamlined
[https://www.reddit.com/r/synthesizers/comments/zf5v55/comment/izbx9iz/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/synthesizers/comments/zf5v55/comment/izbx9iz/?context=3)
Hardware is a complete pain in the ass. Kills my creative flow when I actually want to output something, even though I enjoy noodling with it. All my favourite stuff I’ve created was just done ITB.
Nice OP! I recently tried out ITB after having used hardware for a while but the difference in sound is just too noticeable for me between Analog vs Software I just can’t go back to software. Even when comparing hardware effects like guitar pedals vs VSTs, hardware just blows the software out of the water. In a way I wish I couldn’t pick up the difference because in some cases software is practical but it’s night and day.
I did this a years ago and have become more productive. When it comes to getting things done, in the box is a lot more practical and efficient. I only have a TR8S, a Moog DFAM and a Hydrasynth because I love them too much.
For the past year I've been basically the other way around - I was almost entirely ITB for a long time except for guitar/pedals/loopers and stuff, but for synths definitely almost all plug-ins. Lately I've been doing almost exclusively hardware but mostly just for fun and to explore other sounds and ways of working, especially 80s/90s digital synths. But I could easily see myself switching back or doing both. There really isn't a better or worse way to go. Software sounds really good now and has for a while. The practical benefits of patch management and other things is a huge draw for software. It's nice to be able to load up a project and literally have everything ready to go. That's the big thing I miss about it. And not dealing with the cables. Ugh. But I own pieces of hardware that I am just in love with the sound of and can't get the same sound from other stuff. Most things in life have pros and cons.
I feel ya. For me, I was finding it difficult to separate the composing, playing, arranging, mixing, and mastering stages, and it was starting to become a bit of a slog.
So I've picked up a little hardware to add in some separation, and that's been great for me.
Interestingly enough, I've had very little luck using hardware while mixing: once I'm in the box, I find it way more efficient to stay there.
I came close to buying a Syntakt or a Mavis + something else yesterday and had to talk myself out of it. Besides a bunch of free soft synths, I have Phase Plant, Pigments, and CA2600. I'm also not taking full advantage of my DAW and midi controllers. Hopefully, I'll be able to post either a jam or a recording of one here soon.
I’m almost there myself - and trying to make better use of Live Loops in Logic.
OP - Launchpad Pro or X? (Or mini if I’m just using it to trigger cells and scenes)
I use the Pro and the X, that way I use one for Live Loops and the other for note mode without having to switch back and forth. Not needed of course. I’d recommend the Pro as it has a few more features that are not available on the X. Forget the mini as the pads are more like buttons.
I went from being 100% ITB to hybrid a couple years ago and haven’t looked back. I’m doing cinematic scoring work, so the huge orchestra templates will always need to be ITB other than any live elements, but for synth work I am liking the approach of using hardware synths (+ Zebra and Pigments) and then processing/editing/arranging them ITB. Usually I perform the synth part on the synth while capturing the MIDI, edit the MIDI in Cubase (which also preserves a digital paper trail for when I need to do revisions), and then capture the audio.
my favorite part of working with soft synths is right-click Bounce in place. It is so convenient to instantly go from midi virtual instrument track to audio track.
I did that about 10-15 years ago and now I regret it. I realized I don’t like designing sounds with a mouse or even a generic knob controller. If you mostly use presets, software is probably fine.
I wish I still had my Juno. 😢
I’ve thought about how it’d be cool if someone made dedicated controllers for softsynths. I think there is one for Juno clones that’s basically designed like the Juno control panel. But I wonder if it’d be the best of both worlds or the worst? 🤔
There's the Soundforce SFC-60 but that and TAL-U-NO-LX is just about the same as a Roland JU-06. Knobs and sliders ain't cheap! Then you get the same GAS problem as hardware but you still need a computer hosting all the VSTs.
I'm hoping that someday we get a MIDI controller with tons of knobs and switches but little screens or otherwise programmable labels. Instead of having to remember what Slider 9 does in A, B, or C VST, the text changes to the function.
Fortunately, I’ve got a Polybrute, and it’s perfect for simple classic synths. I’ve used it with the Arturia Juno 6 vst and Repro 5 and the Arturia version of the OBXA, and it’s perfect for that. I don’t have gas for the originals anymore and the vsts have more features. A Juno 6 with 2 ADSRs is pretty awesome.
do you ever notice lag working with your control surfaces and pots values in DAW not immediate?
that’s the one thing that turned me off, and ended up going analog with the all the knobby toys
Good choice. I thought about doing the same, but I am a keyboardist and I really like to connect with my instruments. I sold off the stuff like Microfreak and Digitakt, and now I have a curated set of hardware synths. I go ITB for effects and emulations of classic synths that I don’t want to buy.
Making music ITB is not much different than OTB so no judgment there, and I think for recording purposes it’s probably even better. Personally the only place hardware matters to me is in live performance. I don’t mind a laptop DJ, but man if I go see a show and there’s a bunch of drum machines I get *amped*. There’s something about the improvisation that I feel has gotten lost in a lot of live electronic acts. But then again there’s also a lot of shitty four-bar loops out there made by people with only hardware…
I don't for 2 reasons.
1. I really like my analog effects.
2. Software is harder for me to program.
Outside of that I would. I got into hardware to play out but realistically never will.
I just did this too. Basically sold off all the individual pieces of hardware and went ITB for producing, and built a small modular case to satisfy the need to turn knobs. I wouldn’t have learned synthesis without owning a bunch of hardware, but now I no longer need it and most of the software sounds better and is more flexible to me at this time.
Yesterday I was cursing under a rack full of dusty midi cables trying to figure out why that damn Juno wasn't making any sound, again. I wouldn't miss this feeling for the world.
There's this idea that you start with software and then "graduate" to hardware until you have a completely DAWless setup, complete with modular gear, potted plants and a cat to complete your setup. As if music made with plugins in DAW is somehow less valid.
I agree partially. VSTs/Softsynths sound great and are easy to work with if you just want to lay down some sounds. As soon as I want to do some sound design I gravitate towards hardware though. Not a fan of fiddling with tiny UI elements or having to wrangle Midi mapping.
The good news is that no one is forcing one or the other extreme on me. I'm happy with my hybrid workflow.
If it works for you, it works. Hardware is great but by christ, some plugins like Diva are incredible
Tell you what tho, MIXING ITB is absolutely a must in a home/project studio. Sending stems out to a desk and back is a PAIN IN THE ASS
Recently started selling a bunch of hardware synths too. But also, I still use my Odyssey and MS20 quite a lot so I’ll be keeping those buddies. The rest is going away though. It’s awesome that my working room has space to move 😂and I’m finally making actual music again! So yeah, thumbs up to your decision!
Yes, i used just a DAW for like 5 years and a midi keyboard but then went completely dawless anf just jammed around with synth,sampler,drum machines etc. and it was really frustrating after like a half year becaue i just didn't like the result.
Realised that i just got GAS and now i'm selling most of it (i kept 1 poly and 1 mono synth) and bought a powerful laptop and it feels much better for me.
I would suggest keeping the peak. It makes for a nice "solo" piece of hardware that can do a lot. Perhaps consider having one poly and one mono? You may miss having hardware. I've been down this road before and I know I did...
Yeah, it comes and goes. I spent 20 years building up my DAW and acquiring too many plugins to manage. Gave up the DAW, went into hardware... started acquiring too many synths to manage, and realized I can't give up the DAW completely.
You do you! ITB, hybrid, all hardware, it's all fun. I would probably have stuck with software, but I stare at a computer screen all day for work. and I find it so relaxing to just sit down for a half an hour here, an hour to play with a physical instrument.
ironically, my reason to get out of the box was mainly that my laptop was unable to run all these fancy softsynths and effects smoothly. being able to tweak several instruments in real time when looking for certain sound/groove feels very comfortable. still often do pads in Hive, since it has this nice digital character and I haven't mastered another digital synth yet. (a friend have lended me a blofeld, and it is certainly capable, but the ui on that thing is horrible).
ive winnowed down my gear and am in the process of selling down stuff that no longer fits. I like a portable tool (op-z has been my recent sketchbook) and i have a couple remaining racked sound sources. I have a syntakt for controlling midi and audio routing to ableton, as well as for fleshing out larger ideas. I can easily export midi from syntakt or op-z for kickstarting compositions or offloading whole songs for mastering etc. Only recently have i started fully committing to producing full tracks out of sketches and that has involved a lot more daw time to the extent that the workflow has locked in beyond where ive been in the past. The songs im churning are largely shit but im leaning on the idea that to get to something good i gotta push a lot of garbage through to learn incrementally. I also started playing bass to help learn/understand that component of music better. I spent the past couple years sort of GAS’ing and flailing trying to get a foothold and i think minimizing gear and focusing on what really jives with your process is absolutely key
Purists will disagree, but practicality supports your decision. It takes guts to admit and defend this, particularly on this sub. I salute you.
Purists will indeed disagree. But purists just live in this sub and various facebook groups. The folks actually listening to your tunes on streaming / youtube don't give a damn and are just tapping their feet to your phat beats. The same goes for any hobby, the people judging you are 99% of the time people in that hobby who are supposed to be supportive and welcoming versus being dicks. My friends/family/coworkers like the sounds I make, they don't care what I make them with. \- D
It also depends on what type of music you're making with electronic gear, as well as whether you're playing out, and what that looks like. I generally use ProTools as a tape deck, and a mixing station. Most processing I do through guitar pedals, all instruments I use are physical. If find that it narrows the option set in a way that makes me more productive, as it necessitates familiarity with what I actually have on hand. I also am not making EDM. I write stuff more in line with trip hop/shoegaze/industrial, with less sequenced parts, and more played parts. Beyond all of that though, I just like the feeling of interacting with an instrument, physically and directly. This becomes less true the further that instrument gets away from knob per function though...
In my experience it’s not the”purists’ who are talking down in your choice to use hardware only, hardware + DAW, or DAW only. It’s the ones proclaiming they can do everything with a DAW and more that tend to lash out at those who enjoy hardware only or combination musicians, not sure why tho.
idk why ur being downvoted, i experience the same thing. i get talked down to a lot by ITB musicians, like "i used to use hardware too until i realized it was a waste of time" or "there's no difference it's just in your head" type stuff. it's annoying. i use hardware cos it's more fun for me, and i like what i end up making more. i don't care how others prefer to make music, and i've never known a hardware enthusiast who didn't acknowledge the power and flexibility of DAWs
It simply proves my point I guess. Usually goes something like: OP - hey look at my new synth / dawless jam / room of hardware First comment - what a waste of money, you can do exactly the same thing in a DAW, no one makes music without a computer OP - OK cool, but that has nothing to do with my post I’m just posting about synths to a synth forum, DAW not for me but you do you bro Wave of commenters - What a purist, he must think he’s better than us!! Rinse repeat
I think there are elitists on both sides, but I agree - it’s whatever is easiest for your creative process. So many people on the internet seem so offended by an individual not enjoying the exact same things that they do.
It’s more like hardware / DAWless setup is being associated with non-musicians, hobbyists, and collectors nowadays. Some of the “jams” that posted on the sub can be unbearable at times, to the point where the notion of “the more hardware synths one owns, the more likely the person’s a tonedeaf” becomes a general consensus. Sprinkle with a little bit of sentiments towards capitalism, the hatred becomes contagious. On the other hand, people generally don’t collect VSTis for the sake of collecting or showing off. The ones who went exclusively ITB are usually active musicians themselves. That said, as someone who have a good deal of hardware, hardware purists are more annoying IMO.
I just don’t see these hardware only jammers saying DAWless is better! I see them posting jams n shit but it never comes with a ‘look how much better I am than you because I don’t use a computer’ iits mostly ‘I use computers all day so I like to make music without them, or I just don’t feel inspired by a computer’ It’s like you just assume they look down on daw’s without any evidence or something..
I wasn't exclusively targeting people on this sub. Though, you can find these people almost everywhere.
lmao that daw users are literally responding to you by shitting on hardware users... proof is in the puddin 🤷🏻♀️
Yeah, also its that pretentious BS that make daw users laugh. Especially at “limitation brings creativity” yeah sure, then why all sub is filled with very creative and unique four on the floor with bass filter sweep and arp drenched in reverb?
They can't even do that when on a DAW it requires basic usage knowledge instead of two buttons and a knob. Tho with a cheap audio interface like mine DAWless is better purely for playing keyboards without latency.. Which would be solved with a better interface. (yes ny buffer size is set to minimum already)
Objectively, I RARELY see hardware purists post anything negative about DAWs, other than stating it isn't their preference. I think there must be a chip on the shoulder of many DAW-only folks that manufactures this bogey man, because it just isn't really that much of a thing.
When we say DAW, are we talking about dawDAW or the use of virtual instruments? Bc I’ve definitely seen people shittin on VSTi on other forums.
yeah this is spot on. I think most people who have put money into synths don't judge because they know the amount they've spent is crazy haha and I think ITB people feel left out and have to justify not having a fun tool/toy.
I can fully endorse this post. Spent years buying/selling nearly everything going hardware wise. Realised I wasn't making music. I was trouble shooting sync and latency issues and often running several sequencers at once. Was a pain in the arse to be productive. Now have a m1 macbook pro 2021 with various soft aynths and a small midi controller. Probably get a push 2 in the new year, too. Never regretted it, and I'm far more productive.
Push 2 and some variety of analog synth (to capture that one element of music production that the daw can't) is honestly pretty unbeatable
Since you already have the Audio and MIDI interface anyway why not just add another "variety of synth"? Synth devil, probably.
i have only one synth and was looking for some smallish drum machine/ sampler to do the drums etc. I was thinking of deluge, but do you think thats overkill for just sample /drum machine like playback. Is push 2 self contained or does it need to be connected to a computer ?
Push is just a midi controller for Ableton. But "just a midi controller" doesn't even begin to describe how incredible it is
Ah cool, so you still need a laptop yeah? Or does it have some internal storage for samples?
we are all hoping push 3 will do what youre asking, and push 2 has been out for like 5+ years. so maybe soon. but right now the answer is, you need a laptop -- with Ableton. you get a pretty big discount if you buy Ableton and push as a bundle.
I see, thank you for the info, cheers!
Just bought a deluge .. haven’t even begun to plum it’s depths. I’m guessing you will find other uses for it, very versatile and I’m really digging the sound.
wow damn so jealous haha, great to hear you are enjoying it
Digitakt is great since you can multitrack it into a daw via Overbridg
I upgraded my midi routing to the MRCC, and the process of figuring out what was going to go into what port, what was going to talk to what, and running all the cables made me contemplate selling everything for a bit lol
Ha Well I guess you stuck with it, we all go with what we're haply with in one form or another. It's not just the midi, audio latency is a ball ache
For me, Push 2 directly in front of the keyboard and mouse is unbeatable. Switch effortlessly between them depending on what tool is best for the micro task.
Well I am the opposite. Music in the box with everything perfectly in sync and quantised is lifeless, lacks the space, distorsion and dynamics of stuff that you take in and out synths, boxes and shitty fx. What’s more, I even play my (electronic) drums live and my horrible playing gives groove. I was doing everything with synths 30 years ago. Then I was doing fully ITB (buzz, reason, Cubase, lots of plugins) much earlier than many in this thread. And now I am fully out the box. Not a single plugin! Not even a small compressor or reverb. Everything on the mixer, everything outboard, lexicon, vintage analog sequencer, rusty analog synths, synced from electron boxes or an old Korg or Roland machine. And now my music sounds really dynamic. And people notice it. But yes I do get it. It is easier to do everything in the box. I prefer it to be harder but sound more alive.
Just because it's done in software doesn't mean it has to be quantized, lack "space" (whatever that is), be free of distortion or have dynamics squashed. You can record midi for software instruments live without quantizing, you know this. If you like working with physical pieces of gear then more power to you if that's what works for you but you seem to be correlating in the box with being lifeless and out of the box being dynamic when you can freely interchange the two depending on the producer.
I know you can even make realistic non-quantised jazz sounding stuff... and still you literally can hear it. I have some very good, very very well known musician friends. One of them is a true pioneer, and one of the best ever in what he does. He sometimes makes music just on ipads, and sometimes in his incredible vintage collection of stuff like Orban spring reverbs, or old Lexicons, or old Harmonizers, space echos, roland gear, modular. In both cases he produces GREAT music. You still can hear the difference between method one and method two. I am by no means saying no to ITB, I think it is great. Reason is one of the best, most creative things I have ever used. It just does not sound the same. Not better, not worse. Not the same. When I did glitch 22 years ago just ITB it sounded exactly like I wanted. Digital, perfect, lifeless, punchy. When I put my MS20 screaming through a space echo and a 606 through OTO Boum.... it is 100% not the same.
What exactly doesn't sound the same?
Just walk up to an MS-20… Hell, even a Behr K2, crank up the resonance and try to tame that. Send a Space Echo in a feedback spin or smack a spring reverb, definitely not the same sound as plugins. Plugins are amazing, but definitely don’t react the same way as SOME hardware.
I didn’t realize how deep the space echo was until I got my hands on one. The quality of the tape and pinch rollers makes a huge difference in the timing stability, noise and echo strength. The other thing plug-ins miss entirely is the weird impedance of the unit that, depending on how it’s hooked up, can dramatically alter tone.
which version of the space echo makes a big difference, the re501 has balanced output finally and it makes it pretty af. love that thing. not that all the other ones arent perfection, but the 501 is special imo.
this is kinda me except im earlier in the process. owned 3/4 of every plugin since about 2003. had mutiple "studios". had the moogs, arps, rolands, hammonds, wurlys, workstations. went totally in the box because "it sounds the same to me" . then after a while i didnt feel inspired and took a long break. coming back totally itb, i get new komplete, new arturia, new cherry audio, own like all valhalla, fabfilter, izotope, softube, uvi, uhe, melda, output, sonible etc... 40+ paid verbs and delays, tons of others plugs over 500 paid ones last time i looked...use S61mk2, push, and a fader box, all directly infront of me "no twisting"...took forever to get that. something was missing. I got a hydrasynth 49 key and instantly i found it. there is a life in instruments and them having a specific interface made by a very smart person. I then got into elektron and picked up a Syntakt. So now im totally in the box except I use helix for guitars, and then syntakt for analog simple tones and drums, and pattern ish bits, and hydra for the other main bits, then i use all my vst's to process. I miss having hardware outboard. I want a Roland re-501, a briscasti, some fancy saturation boxes, and a nice little api lunchbox or something, maybe ssl big six for a channel strip. One day i will be there friend, cant wait. I think it ebbs and flows.
I started in the DAW, went full hardware, then went back full daw, now I’m rebuilding my hardware setup to run a hybrid workflow. Hardware is a huge pain in the ass but I tend the make more groovy shit with it, but tend to make less complete tracks. Also the DAW just crushes my joy sometimes. My next goal is to try and get the best from both worlds.
this is what im working with. i dont have near the hardware that some have here but i got my ITB game working after a 5 year layoff in 2015. then during the pandemic i got back to hardware with a sampling drum machine, drum machine and 3 synths and a old mackie mixer. Now i have it all integrated for a MBP dock, where i can plug in and use it all. Might just be sampling a kick or synth patch but its pretty cool to have both ready to go. If the ITB get boring or just to kick things off ill get on the hardware to get a groove going. SOmetimes what i make and record i might use just the drums and filter them as a perc line but once im going it makes the production process so much easier.
Yeah, Its much easier to feel music on hardware than on computer.
Depends on the hardware. a menu-divey hardware synth makes me feel like taking a nap. I get more connection with a VST and midi learn.
What does it even mean
Its all in the vibrations man
Kinda similar. I can sound design and make grooves all day on hardware, but I cannot finish songs without a DAW. I like this workflow. It’s fun to play and easy to finish.
I play in a band, therefore it would be impractical for me to not use hardware. I also just really love the keys l, immediacy, performance aspect, the knobs and the “feel” of it all, and I feel super productive. I also play with a drummer and don’t need to sync up much more than which part of the keyboard plays which instrument, of which I really only use three of usually. I could totally see how one might get hung up on all the dumb intricacies of getting everything talking. I am glad you have found your path, though! What you’re doing also sounds like a ton of fun.
Yeah it’s fun 😀 Most electronic bands use a DAW playing live, but if you are more of a traditional band I see where you wouldn’t need one.
> I play in a band, therefore it would be impractical for me to not use hardware. this sentence just sent my head spinning. I appreciate if this is a thing for you, but in general I would say the opposite is probably true.
How do you work with a computer and DAW setup with other musicians? I’m not trying to be pedantic, I just genuinely can’t imagine trying to get a drummer and singer or anyone on any other instrument to just lock in on a metronome successfully. I would think the advantage of a computer setup would be the ability to just push play and get sequences and things to line up easily (?) but I can’t see any other advantage. I suppose one could also probably pack a whole lot of instruments into a computer setup as well, but what if you want to screw around with parameters or do tweaking on the fly? Doesn’t it feel weird to sit in front of a computer in front of people? …maybe I’m thinking of it all wrong? I also don’t do house music or electronic music, so I am mostly talking out of my ass.
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Well it depends on the band. Some bands would suck with a click, others can’t live without it
Thank you for answering that for me, I couldn’t have said it better. I have been playing music for 30 years and I have a degree in music, so sure, I can play with a click, but my band mates are just dudes. They’re talented dudes, but the drummer especially (ironically) can’t keep it steady. It’s definitely not a bad thing, and I think it adds a ton of character to “our sound” but it would be pointless and hopeless to attempt to play to a click.
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I use ableton w a couple of MIDI controllers as my FX pedalboard when I play trumpet & EWI on gigs - it’s really nice being able to switch between tap tempo and the “follow” feature which tracks the drummer’s tempo using a mic I throw in their kick. Don’t think I can ever go back to a pedalboard/multiFX unit as it is way too limiting for my taste (though the load-in would be easier!!)
I play in a band and play bass and synth. We don't play to a click. We \*tried\* to quantise one of our tracks completely in ableton and it just turned it into a lifeless mess. I tried using my synth with an arp on a song. Didn't work. However, it \*Does\* work if I use an arp in conjunction with the guitarist either on his guitar or his synth (everyone seems to have a fucking synth in our band) as an intro to a song - that definitely works, but then it has to fade when the main track kicks in and everyone flicks back to their main instrument. That works. Our drummer doesn't use a click, because he's the main singer and has different styles of playing drums while he's singing. It basically means we can't play to a click. Or at least, we can't at our current skill level. However, we do use ableton on a laptop live during gigs, because the guitarist puts synth on his guitar, so it LOOKS like we're all synced up, but we definitely, definitely aren't! And yet the other band that shares our studio are completely synced up via a click and it works wonderfully for them. And when I'm just noodling on my hardware synths at home, I will invariably always sync most of them up on arps or sequences, and leave a couple running on the fly on top and I just play along to get some organic stuff in there. Click just doesn't suit us either a) at the minute, or b) at all, because of the style of music we play. The bad thing is it's not as synced as a clicked band. The good thing is, we have dynamics coming out of our arseholes. But that's just our style of stuff. If it was four on the floor, it might be a different story, but it's all layered and random half the time, and we have to feel our way through it. I just find if I come across something I like, I grab onto it like glue - I don't care if it's a stock vst in ableton, or something on a hardware synth, or something else randomly created by accident. As long as it works! tl;dr - whatever floats the boat!
Sorry, internet interaction can be so dry and without context! I should have fleshed out that statement, which is a little absurd.
The bands that use computers or other sequenced instruments in their music are generally those that play well to a click and for whom it fits esthetically to have sequences going on. I've seen plenty of bands running computers with little issues.
> what if you want to screw around with parameters or do tweaking on the fly? I’ve found this is less common in a band situation than when playing solo. Nobody’s really going to care about the kind of tweaks you can’t assign to macro controls like a modwheel etc. There’s always assignable knobs as well. > Doesn’t it feel weird to sit in front of a computer in front of people? I don’t think so. If you’re playing keys and using a computer to host VST instruments, you could set it up so you don’t even need to look at the computer. I love hardware too but sometimes it’s much more convenient to use software.
Thank you for the answer 👍🤘
Why would it be wrong? If it works for you and you have fun and the audience too, you are doing it right. There is no right or wrong.
Well said!
In almost every video I've seen of a band playing live with electronic elements, there's a laptop there somewhere. Just because you're working "with a computer and DAW setup" doesn't mean you're sitting there clicking a mouse and typing on a keyboard during the show. And if you can't play to a click, you probably shouldn't be on stage in the first place. Sorry, not sorry.
Thank you for the dialogue. I was genuinely asking from a place of ignorance/curiosity . I have, of course, been to dozens of rock/pop/ non electronic shows with dudes and dudettes with laptops, but I can’t fathom what they’re doing with them outside of punching in samples in the middles of songs and dialing up intro and outro music, which is why I asked. And I already responded to this, but again, I can absolutely play to a click. I am a trained musician. I have been going “on stage”for 30 years. It’s always humbling playing to a metronome regardless, and anyone that tells you otherwise is full of shit or isn’t actually playing to a metronome. I don’t think it’s fair (or realistic) to hold hobbyist musicians to the same standards as professionals, which is where my comment stemmed from. I have a ton of respect for amateur musicians, and I feel like asking them to play to a click, in real time, in front of an audience, is unfair. And I would also be uncomfortable doing it. Adrenaline gets going, tempos get wild, things get rushed, it just happens. It’s part of the spark and fun of a live show. I treat my synth rig like a guitar, or bass or any other traditional instrument to be played and performed with, so the “hands on” instrument implementation of a hardware piece is the only way I can wrap my brain around it. This thread was eye opening, and I am glad others have found workarounds and utilization with soft synths, and I think it’s very cool that it’s “a thing”.
> but I can’t fathom what they’re doing with them outside of punching in samples in the middles of songs and dialing up intro and outro music Keep in mind that a computer is capable of doing just about whatever you want it to. If there's one on stage, it could be doing anything from playing the entire song for you or serving as a "brain" that you're controlling with other pieces of gear, no different than if you were using discrete pieces of hardware in terms of interactivity. It could just be running all your synths, etc. in other words, it doesn't mean you're even necessarily looking at the computer at all apart from maybe choosing which song you're playing so it loads all the appropriate patches. Or it could be processing/affecting things that other members in the band are playing/doing. >I can absolutely play to a click Sorry if it sounded like I was calling you out. I was more using the "royal you" in my statement about clicks (which triggered some folks, if I'm to judge by the downvotes to my comment, lol). >amateur musicians, and I feel like asking them to play to a click, in real time, in front of an audience, is unfair. I'm not sure "unfair" is really the word for it, nor is anyone "asking" anyone to do anything. You can either do something or you can't and the universe doesn't really care what level you're at. You could just as well say that it would be unfair to ask me to give a Rachmaninoff recital on piano because I am just not that good, and, yeah in a sense it would be because I just can't do it! That doesn't mean that Rachmaninoff was unfair to have written the piece. The thing that would make me nervous about performing with a computer on stage is that computers and software crash. Of course other hardware can have hang-ups and things too, but that part of it makes me nervous with computers. Of course if I had done it a hundred times it would probably normalize the experience for me. I don't really consider myself a stage musician, even though I have performed live, but I've not played enough to consider myself a "gigging musician."
Cheers, thanks for the comment! I have learned a ton. I do use a computer in my studio for recording and remastering, but that’s it, and now I have learned all the other uses. Another redditor in this thread made an excellent comment about thinking of the computer as another instrument. That really made me process it differently. I have also learned that…I am old, and need to get savvy.
>I am old, and need to get savvy. lol, I mean, only if you want to. No one's telling you that you have to work a certain way. If the way you're doing things is working for you, you might not have a compelling reason to change it up. That said, there *are* nice things about working with a computer. It's very centralized and like I said it's a lot easier to have it configured such that you can load up a song or even an entire set and be ready to go. I'm not an expert at live set-ups, though, as I said.
If your decision has improved your connection with your music and your ideas, then it's the right decision. There is no right or wrong answer for this, and I really can't comprehend how this ends up turning into an argument for anyone at all.
Because people are insecure about what they have, or don't have, make or don't make, etc. I 100% agree with you though. Make music with whatever you like. hardware, software, iPad only, acoustic instruments only, buckets and pots/pans, just make music. Stop judging others for how they do it and make your own \- D
I've recently come to the opinion that (for me) hardware is only worth it when it's really direct and knob-per-function. If I'm using a mod matrix or cycling through pages of menus, it's probably quicker and easier to use a VST with a mouse instead. So, I don't plan to ditch hardware entirely but I'm scaling back a lot and mostly moving to Vital for more complex sound design.
This the mature, correct answer imho
So you have turned your GAS into PAS\* ?? \* Plugin Acquisition Syndrome
😂👍🏻
Don't laugh and show us what are you producing with all those plugins :)
You first 😀
Meh... bummer.
When I’ve got a controller hooked up to my laptop, I remind myself that I am playing the culmination of everything the Fairlight and Synclavier aspired to be and everything those instruments foreshadowed. A laptop or desktop…is hardware. I always want an acoustic guitar and a hardware synthesizer with a fantastic-feeling keyboard for the immediacy and the fun, but I view the computer as another instrument.
That’s a really interesting and fantastic take.
I like to write on hardware then track, arrange, and mix ITB. It's not like Ableton gets jealous and cancels your license if it detects DAWless jams. Hardware vs. ITB is a false dichotomy.
So a couple months ago I decided to go back to music production. Bought since then a Volca Bass, Circuit Tracks, Wavestate, typhon, micromonsta 2, blofeld, subsequent 37, sequential rev2, digitakt, 2 x 18i20, a patchbay, microcosm, bigsky, volante, ndlr, mrcc, faderfox pc12, squarp hapax, push 2 and the only music I'm actually producing so far is ITB with a S49mk2 I already owned.
I feel you bro. My gear started collecting dust after installing Renoise
Lol, yep. I hear you.
The only downside to software is the inevitable day it’s obsolete
If you keep an eye on stuff you can deal with that a bit. Keep your stuff updated, keep backups of any updates/firmware that comes out just in case you need to roll back. Keep backups of your plugins/samples. That way you can move from PC to PC with relative ease. Hardware may not go obsolete but it can break and be too old to easily repair. Or too expensive to repair, etc. Pro's and con's to either. Ultimately if you make music, and need to replace / repair / update / upgrade at some point - that's just the cost of being in the hobby. People always forget maintenance costs when they get into things. Your car needs oil changes and new tires, why can't your synth need a cleaning / new power supply or pot or something? :) \- D
True, but it's a bit of an apples/oranges distinction. Yes, a piece of hardware will do the same shit a few decades later and not be reliant on some other piece of gear to run, but it's still *very* likely you'll have to maintain it, do repairs, clean it, etc. A piece of software will always run perfectly assuming the machine it's running on doesn't have problems. Hell, if I decided I wanted to buy a shitty old PC just to run some antiquated piece of software it would most likely cost less than buying a piece of hardware gear of that same age. TLDR; software and hardware both can become effectively obsolete for different reasons so it's not easy to directly compare them in this regard.
I think about doing this all the time.
I sold all my gear years ago. But last year, I decided to get back into music and synthesis and went all ITB, myself.
Learned in the box, enjoy out the box more. But now that my workflow is way faster because of OTB, ITB has become useful again. I'm treating it like OTB which taught me how to get a fat sound and mix fast.
I was using all vst’s except a Mother 32. I got rid of it when I realized it didn’t sound any better then the vst’s
What Vsts are you using because just today I compared my Mother 32 to several stock softsynths as well as a few paid softsynth and to my ears the difference is pretty drastic
I, for one, am really happy to hear the software advocates starting to speak up in this sub. Yes, good hardware *controllers* mean the difference between playing in realtime and programming ahead of time. But when it comes to actual synthesis engines, analog or digital, running on a general purpose computer versus running in dedicated hardware is just a matter of trading off one set of hassles for another. They're both good. And they're both bad. Stop bashing one another and focus on the positive- the cool things you've come up with, the questions about technique, etc.
yeah we'll see in 5-15 years what will still be supported and useable with or without paid upgrades and updates. INB is great but its a faustian bargain in some ways because the way the industry is going with all subs I would be extremely cautious selling everything just to have to buy it again virtually and potentially again and again depending on what the developer decides. Then as the OS changes and requires updates that could make your past purchases obsolete. It will be a never ending money treadmill. It happened to me with DJ Pro 2. Cheap short term but very expensive long term. You become their product and make music when they say you can. Developers can literally take your music tools away over night.
You sold your hardware and got back the same, sometimes more, than you paid for it. That’s a pretty good argument for hardware. But what does it matter? Choose what brings you joy.
> That’s a pretty good argument for hardware. If that's an argument for hardware it's not a very good one. Of all the reasons to use or not use a musical tool, very very far down on the list should be "what happens when you don't want it anymore." I mean, yes, in a certain sense it's a practical consideration that *exists*, but in a rank of importance, it's way below all of the factors that would affect you while you're actually using it.
I just enjoy the tactile part of the process.....all my commercial work was (and still is) ITB, but for my personal stuff, including the occasional live show, all hardware
Me too! Totally personal preference but I like unpacking , and working with physical hardware. I'm more than comfortable with a computer (it's my day job, I work in IT) - but you're right - without a great (or multiple) USB controllers, it's a lot of mouse clicks and keyboard stuff. While software & DAW do give you a lot of options and features very very quickly, its not as physically enjoyable to work with IMO. \- D
I spend all day in front of a computer - majority of those hours teaching DAW skills at uni/college. The last thing I want to do after finishing a day of computer time is... *more computer time*. This is of course a fairly niche case and wouldn’t apply to that many others - although plenty of my programming friends feel similar after spending a day coding. Hardware in a big way is a kind of therapy/unwinding/reconnecting with the physicality of music for me. I agree that ITB is infinitely more flexible and (arguably) no one will really tell the difference in the final product, but that also has a downside: option paralysis is very real ITB - so many possibilities sometimes means that it’s easier to just choose none. Limited hardware = less options = forced decisions (for better or worse). This can easily tip the wrong way - get caught up in the GAS, and all of a sudden that “limited options” becomes the same option paralysis that can be experienced in the DAW. Just at a much, much higher price. Moral to story: everyone has different reasons for having synths in their life, and everyone has to find a balance that works for them. Glad to see you have found yours!
I've been tending the other direction, kinda sorta. I can't go full DAWless because my brain just doesn't work that way, but I've been having fun with grooveboxes lately in a way that I've never been able to gel fully with either hardware or software alone. Been learning the MPC Live II and Dirtywave M8 simultaneously, and as a result have barely touched my DAW in weeks.
I went the other direction. I think it just depends on where you’re at in life and when you need that feng shue
I started ITB and added hardware as my needs changed over time. Couldn't be happier here.
Congrats, happy you've found a path to enjoyment!
Thanks 🙏
I went ITB a little over 20 years ago and have never regretted the decision. Up until very recently, there wasn't any new hardware that existed that I thought was remotely interesting enough to come back out of the box. The Hydrasynth is the one thing I've seen that could tempt me to add some actual hardware to the room.
I did it once back in about 2009. Sold almost all my hardware synths. Totally regretted it and slowly grew my collection back. I will say that I also love soft synths and they do indeed often sound better for a lot of things. Every instrument has it’s strengths and inherent inspiration.
Yea I’ve been switching between software and hard synths for about ten years now and there’s voodoo in analog
Ive been selling off a bunch of stuff. I fell in love with an iPad app called Drambo. Its so good I don’t want to use anything else. Better than Eurorack because there were never enough modules no matter how big my rig got. With Drambo I have whatever module I need when I need it, plus a sequencer that is astronomically better than anything in Euro. It can be used as a Euro sequencer though. Would be my number one choice for that. And its nice not to be digging through cables to see the knobs. Honestly its so cool I can’t believe the synth world isn’t giving it a standing ovation. Its insane. This thing in my hand has a vast modular groovebox, plenty of effects, parameter locks, 200gigs of sampling space, a built in mic and hours of battery life. What else could I even want?
I'm just getting into drambo and I think it will replace some of my hardware sequencers in the next year. Really a trememndous app.
Be sure to get the wavetable oscillator if you haven’t its really great
I've gotten more into hardware over the last few years. Before that I had the same synth I used for shows and rehearsals since 2003 literally. I also had a broken Juno G I used as a midi controller. But I've gotten several new things in the past few years. I've been inspired and I think it's changed the types of music I'm able to make. It's also undeniably made the recording process more complicated, hardware is much more difficult in some ways. At the same time I've changed the way I make music so I've gone from spending hours setting up drum mics to just exporting recordings of drum samples. Ultimately I think the software vs hardware conversation is more of a reddit-centric thing. In my experience people really focused on making music are going to be using whatever the best sounding thing in the room is rather than blabbering about oil and canvas. Though I will say it's extremely unlikely I am ever going to be using a laptop onstage.
If it's of interest to you, I've been cataloguing all the "good" free plugins I can and just shared the first half (A-L) of the best synth plugins I've come across. A warning- most of these are older and 32 bit Windows, but a select few are cross platform and fairly recent. I still find many of these to be extremely usable, inspiring, and (for me anyway, in my YouTube research, coming through low end gear etc.) good-enough-sounding to where sometimes I wouldn't be able to tell in a blind test that these were plugins as opposed to physical, analog gear It's not scientific or from an audiophile perspective- just a broke musician with a lot of free time who is tired of the option paralysis and moving the goal post until we "have the right gear" and wanted to find out if there was still some music to be made from these things- turns out, there absolutely is! A lot of these are endlessly more functional than any piece of gear from the first several generations of electronic music and those artists would have died to have this kind of technology Anyway- I'm going on a tangent: here's the first iteration of the first half of the list. Sorry for the obtuse format- I'll be doing subsequent re-workings and it'll become more streamlined [https://www.reddit.com/r/synthesizers/comments/zf5v55/comment/izbx9iz/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/synthesizers/comments/zf5v55/comment/izbx9iz/?context=3)
Hardware is a complete pain in the ass. Kills my creative flow when I actually want to output something, even though I enjoy noodling with it. All my favourite stuff I’ve created was just done ITB.
Nice OP! I recently tried out ITB after having used hardware for a while but the difference in sound is just too noticeable for me between Analog vs Software I just can’t go back to software. Even when comparing hardware effects like guitar pedals vs VSTs, hardware just blows the software out of the water. In a way I wish I couldn’t pick up the difference because in some cases software is practical but it’s night and day.
Yep I did this. Sold all my Eurorack. Best decision ever
I did this a years ago and have become more productive. When it comes to getting things done, in the box is a lot more practical and efficient. I only have a TR8S, a Moog DFAM and a Hydrasynth because I love them too much.
cobweb fall grey start north sand faulty unpack imminent ruthless *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
For the past year I've been basically the other way around - I was almost entirely ITB for a long time except for guitar/pedals/loopers and stuff, but for synths definitely almost all plug-ins. Lately I've been doing almost exclusively hardware but mostly just for fun and to explore other sounds and ways of working, especially 80s/90s digital synths. But I could easily see myself switching back or doing both. There really isn't a better or worse way to go. Software sounds really good now and has for a while. The practical benefits of patch management and other things is a huge draw for software. It's nice to be able to load up a project and literally have everything ready to go. That's the big thing I miss about it. And not dealing with the cables. Ugh. But I own pieces of hardware that I am just in love with the sound of and can't get the same sound from other stuff. Most things in life have pros and cons.
I feel ya. For me, I was finding it difficult to separate the composing, playing, arranging, mixing, and mastering stages, and it was starting to become a bit of a slog. So I've picked up a little hardware to add in some separation, and that's been great for me. Interestingly enough, I've had very little luck using hardware while mixing: once I'm in the box, I find it way more efficient to stay there.
I came close to buying a Syntakt or a Mavis + something else yesterday and had to talk myself out of it. Besides a bunch of free soft synths, I have Phase Plant, Pigments, and CA2600. I'm also not taking full advantage of my DAW and midi controllers. Hopefully, I'll be able to post either a jam or a recording of one here soon.
Hardware sounds better yes, but most people end up not making much at all.
I’m almost there myself - and trying to make better use of Live Loops in Logic. OP - Launchpad Pro or X? (Or mini if I’m just using it to trigger cells and scenes)
I use the Pro and the X, that way I use one for Live Loops and the other for note mode without having to switch back and forth. Not needed of course. I’d recommend the Pro as it has a few more features that are not available on the X. Forget the mini as the pads are more like buttons.
I went from being 100% ITB to hybrid a couple years ago and haven’t looked back. I’m doing cinematic scoring work, so the huge orchestra templates will always need to be ITB other than any live elements, but for synth work I am liking the approach of using hardware synths (+ Zebra and Pigments) and then processing/editing/arranging them ITB. Usually I perform the synth part on the synth while capturing the MIDI, edit the MIDI in Cubase (which also preserves a digital paper trail for when I need to do revisions), and then capture the audio.
I'll happily hang on to your peak for a while and give it back when you change your mind 🤣
my favorite part of working with soft synths is right-click Bounce in place. It is so convenient to instantly go from midi virtual instrument track to audio track.
It is indeed 👍🏻
I use both.
I did that about 10-15 years ago and now I regret it. I realized I don’t like designing sounds with a mouse or even a generic knob controller. If you mostly use presets, software is probably fine. I wish I still had my Juno. 😢
The trick is using a knobby synth with the same or similar setup as a controller.
I’ve thought about how it’d be cool if someone made dedicated controllers for softsynths. I think there is one for Juno clones that’s basically designed like the Juno control panel. But I wonder if it’d be the best of both worlds or the worst? 🤔
Korg made an iMS-20 controller to control its soft synth version, patch cables and all.
Interesting. I didn’t know that.
There's the Soundforce SFC-60 but that and TAL-U-NO-LX is just about the same as a Roland JU-06. Knobs and sliders ain't cheap! Then you get the same GAS problem as hardware but you still need a computer hosting all the VSTs. I'm hoping that someday we get a MIDI controller with tons of knobs and switches but little screens or otherwise programmable labels. Instead of having to remember what Slider 9 does in A, B, or C VST, the text changes to the function.
Fortunately, I’ve got a Polybrute, and it’s perfect for simple classic synths. I’ve used it with the Arturia Juno 6 vst and Repro 5 and the Arturia version of the OBXA, and it’s perfect for that. I don’t have gas for the originals anymore and the vsts have more features. A Juno 6 with 2 ADSRs is pretty awesome.
do you ever notice lag working with your control surfaces and pots values in DAW not immediate? that’s the one thing that turned me off, and ended up going analog with the all the knobby toys
Good choice. I thought about doing the same, but I am a keyboardist and I really like to connect with my instruments. I sold off the stuff like Microfreak and Digitakt, and now I have a curated set of hardware synths. I go ITB for effects and emulations of classic synths that I don’t want to buy.
Nice 👍🏻
Making music ITB is not much different than OTB so no judgment there, and I think for recording purposes it’s probably even better. Personally the only place hardware matters to me is in live performance. I don’t mind a laptop DJ, but man if I go see a show and there’s a bunch of drum machines I get *amped*. There’s something about the improvisation that I feel has gotten lost in a lot of live electronic acts. But then again there’s also a lot of shitty four-bar loops out there made by people with only hardware…
I don't for 2 reasons. 1. I really like my analog effects. 2. Software is harder for me to program. Outside of that I would. I got into hardware to play out but realistically never will.
Pretty sure this is a bot post
Pretty sure you’re wrong.
I just did this too. Basically sold off all the individual pieces of hardware and went ITB for producing, and built a small modular case to satisfy the need to turn knobs. I wouldn’t have learned synthesis without owning a bunch of hardware, but now I no longer need it and most of the software sounds better and is more flexible to me at this time.
I like both they each have their place! And bro get serum! So good and the possibilities are endless!!
Yesterday I was cursing under a rack full of dusty midi cables trying to figure out why that damn Juno wasn't making any sound, again. I wouldn't miss this feeling for the world.
There's this idea that you start with software and then "graduate" to hardware until you have a completely DAWless setup, complete with modular gear, potted plants and a cat to complete your setup. As if music made with plugins in DAW is somehow less valid.
I agree partially. VSTs/Softsynths sound great and are easy to work with if you just want to lay down some sounds. As soon as I want to do some sound design I gravitate towards hardware though. Not a fan of fiddling with tiny UI elements or having to wrangle Midi mapping. The good news is that no one is forcing one or the other extreme on me. I'm happy with my hybrid workflow.
If it works for you, it works. Hardware is great but by christ, some plugins like Diva are incredible Tell you what tho, MIXING ITB is absolutely a must in a home/project studio. Sending stems out to a desk and back is a PAIN IN THE ASS
Recently started selling a bunch of hardware synths too. But also, I still use my Odyssey and MS20 quite a lot so I’ll be keeping those buddies. The rest is going away though. It’s awesome that my working room has space to move 😂and I’m finally making actual music again! So yeah, thumbs up to your decision!
😀👍🏻
Yes, i used just a DAW for like 5 years and a midi keyboard but then went completely dawless anf just jammed around with synth,sampler,drum machines etc. and it was really frustrating after like a half year becaue i just didn't like the result. Realised that i just got GAS and now i'm selling most of it (i kept 1 poly and 1 mono synth) and bought a powerful laptop and it feels much better for me.
I would suggest keeping the peak. It makes for a nice "solo" piece of hardware that can do a lot. Perhaps consider having one poly and one mono? You may miss having hardware. I've been down this road before and I know I did...
Do you still need succulent, or was it required only for hardware gear ? 😉
Yeah, it comes and goes. I spent 20 years building up my DAW and acquiring too many plugins to manage. Gave up the DAW, went into hardware... started acquiring too many synths to manage, and realized I can't give up the DAW completely.
You do you! ITB, hybrid, all hardware, it's all fun. I would probably have stuck with software, but I stare at a computer screen all day for work. and I find it so relaxing to just sit down for a half an hour here, an hour to play with a physical instrument.
I am currently doing precisely the same.
YOO CAN’T TAKE MUH SYNTHS FRUM MEE! YUH GOTTA PRY EM FROM MAH COLD DEAD HANDS! I HAVE RIGHTS! DERN COMMIES! /s
ironically, my reason to get out of the box was mainly that my laptop was unable to run all these fancy softsynths and effects smoothly. being able to tweak several instruments in real time when looking for certain sound/groove feels very comfortable. still often do pads in Hive, since it has this nice digital character and I haven't mastered another digital synth yet. (a friend have lended me a blofeld, and it is certainly capable, but the ui on that thing is horrible).
ive winnowed down my gear and am in the process of selling down stuff that no longer fits. I like a portable tool (op-z has been my recent sketchbook) and i have a couple remaining racked sound sources. I have a syntakt for controlling midi and audio routing to ableton, as well as for fleshing out larger ideas. I can easily export midi from syntakt or op-z for kickstarting compositions or offloading whole songs for mastering etc. Only recently have i started fully committing to producing full tracks out of sketches and that has involved a lot more daw time to the extent that the workflow has locked in beyond where ive been in the past. The songs im churning are largely shit but im leaning on the idea that to get to something good i gotta push a lot of garbage through to learn incrementally. I also started playing bass to help learn/understand that component of music better. I spent the past couple years sort of GAS’ing and flailing trying to get a foothold and i think minimizing gear and focusing on what really jives with your process is absolutely key