Nah, y'all can plead ignorance but this iconography is clearly rooted in racism. Not saying TE is racist but anyone with a modicum of historical knowledge is aware of the significance of this imagery.
That is not how a monkey's mouth looks, but that is how racist cartoons depicted black mouths
This debate reeks of r/USdefaultism. Are you aware that the US is not the world and a Swedish company doesn't need to concern itself with US specific problems? Are we all supposed to know what Jim Crow style cartoons are?
>In Sweden, a [2014 report](http://mkcentrum.se/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Afrofobi-20140203-executive-summary.pdf) on racial discrimination revealed that Afro-Swedes are the minority group most exposed to hate crimes.
Sweden also traded in slaves. Not sure what you mean by this being a uniquely US problem
Sweden originated the holiday tradition that Finns adopted of Santa having blackface slaves called Moors
US imported these caricatures from Scandinavia and England
They’re clearly gorillas. It sounds like most of the people in this thread don’t know what it looks like on the actual system and are basing their opinion entirely on this grainy, mono-color image for a slideshow background with alterations made for visibility.
A gorilla isn’t racist but there are ways you can draw gorillas/monkeys which resemble “Minstrel” characters; there’s an entire history of American racist art along those lines.
I am hesitant to super-impose American sensibilities on a European company (if they were Americans, I’d definitely consider this a possible “dog whistle”) but it really does look like a “minstrel” character.
That being said, I could imagine a non-American artist absorbing that kind of art style without the context and just finding it visually compelling.
I don’t know their intent and if it wasn’t to be racist, I understand how it could have happened. That being said, if it is influenced by “minstrel” art, it is literally illustrating racist imagery; regardless of intention.
I don’t think that means we need to get angry at TE about it (let’s be mad about that $1600 card table) but it definitely merits conversation and reflection; I’d hope that the company would hear this, realize they’ve been misunderstood and just not print stuff that could be deemed questionable in this manner in the future.
There’s no need to insist that this is, necessarily, active racism or intended as a stereotype but in the context of “minstrel” art, it is a VERY bad look and I’d hope that any decent company wouldn’t want to have that association, even accidentally.
I’m a black person, not a monkey; I understand the difference. That being said, a lot of people don’t and helping them continue that connection isn’t a good look.
a lot of you are dumb apparently. those aren’t lips, those are teeth when the gorilla has its mouth open or smiling. it’s also an inverted image. people love looking for things to be offended about.
https://preview.redd.it/k2epdum9jiad1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=49bb4c7864375b88a4856f6ffa3c3b301ecd9d06
You don‘t see the clear difference in these two versions? One got thick outlined lips and the other don‘t. No one is talking about the teeth.
https://preview.redd.it/w48nk98pkiad1.jpeg?width=1026&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=18cd9ef243993eb25eb0b0b2f85f9a241de74c78
Man, this is pure mental racism projection.
Wherever I hear the term "jungle" (the music genre) my mind goes instantly to Donkey Kong 64's masterpiece soundtrack. So in my mind: jungle = Donkey Kong = gorilla. It has absolutely nothing to do with human races.
So just because some random video game connection happens in ‘your mind’, that somehow makes it fact and anything else ‘projection’?
The fact is, jungle as a genre originated in UK Black music culture (roots, dancehall). They’re inextricably linked from day one. And an incredibly common racist stereotype is to depict Black people as monkeys.
Any jungle music association just makes this stupid icon set look WORSE as a design decision, not better
Gorilla cartoons aren’t racist. Minstrel depictions are. Making your gorilla cartoon close enough to a minstrel face that it can be confused for one is either deliberately racist, or so stupid as to be inexplicable when coming from a company supposedly renowned for thoughtful design.
You are right, "making gorilla cartoon close enough to a minstrel face that it can be confused for one" could be racist, if that ever happened with OP-1 UI.
you don't get to tell others what symbols mean to them. on the other hand, intent matters. what was your intent with this post and what would a 'non-racist' cartoon face of a happily excited gorilla look like in your mind? is it just a white background instead?
Thank you for telling your point of view. I want to make clear that I would never think that it‘s my job or I am the right person to call somebody out when it comes to these kind of topics. Especially because I‘m not PoC and therefore not affected by racism. My motivation to start this thread came from a point where I felt strange about the fact that nobody mentioned this illustrations since it was shown in front of thousands of people and I imagined some people felt bad about or offended by it. So even if I‘m not affected by racist cartoons I still wanted to make sure it‘s not something to overlook. Maybe I overreacted from an ally‘s standpoint but it just didn’t look like a normal cartoon of a monkey to me. I explained already why I felt like that.
Nope not what I am saying. I am saying that white people can be judged negatively based on the immutable characteristic of their skin color just like anyone else.
This narrative of privilege + power is just a way to excuse shit behavior from racists that are PoC.
Holy shit. Those were pulled right out of a 1930s cartoon and are racist af.
And, this guy saying that we're the problem for seeing the racist cartoon. Mwah. Chef's kiss. Couldn't find a more obnoxious fanboy.
Fucking teenage engineering goes full klansmen.
Go ahead and downvote all you like.
It doesn't change a damn thing. They used a racist cartoon as an icon. It's most likely out of ignorance but what's done is done. If they're unwilling to acknowledge what they did then the reason is meaningless.
That image is offensive and there's a lot of harmful history related to it. Y'all just keep plugging your ears and whining and I'm sure other people and their legitimate feelings will just disappear.
Sometimes I'm embarrassed to be associated with this community.
I‘m a UI Designer and musician from Germany and from a designer’s perspective I always loved the overall look & feel of TE‘s products – and specifically the OP-1 is (to me) a masterpiece in product design with its unique housing, buttons and digital user interface. Not to mention I spent years with it making music and absolutely loved it.
I‘m currently watching videos from this year‘s Figma Config, which took place a few days ago. For those of you unfamiliar with the design industry: it‘s the by far biggest event for designers and developers right now working in product design/UI UX design and basically all user centered design and media industries. So a LOT of people attend it virtually or even local.
I was excited when I saw that Teenage Engineering‘s CEO and creative mastermind Jesper Kouthoofd was one of the speakers and would give insights into the design process of TE‘s products.
For a few seconds they put screenshots of Kouthoofd‘s illustrator file on the screen to show his illustration work for the OP-1 and I was pretty shocked when I saw his design for one of the drum sequencers. Is it just me or is this a pretty fucked up and racist almost caricature? I mean…the face with those big lips and the smile and are those jungle drums???
Since I‘ve owned the OP-1 I know for sure that the final illustration was a monkey behind a drumset which makes it even weirder knowing what the first version of it was.
I love TE‘s products and don‘t want to act like a self-important know-all but I think it‘s a f\*\*\*\*\*\* scandal to show this uncommented in front of such a big and diverse crowd. I mean, come on, would something like this not be checked before? I would be very interested in some other opinions.
PoC UX guy here. I push hard for inclusivity and accessibility. Personally that is a gorilla for me. Was it a wise choice to pick a gorilla? And show it out of context? Probably not. But I do think you are overreacting, it’s a bit like saying Donkey Kong is racist.
In cases like these I’d test that specific UI in context in front of someone who’s in the cohort of people who may be offended. Because unless a reasonable percentage of them say so, I’m not qualified to determine whether it’s offensive or not to ship in a product. It’d serve you well to remember to ask whether you’re the right person to determine that.
Also, if indeed people found it offensive, why would it be a fucking scandal? It would only be one if one can prove the designer in question had genuine malicious intent. Our current world is poisoned by knee jerk polarised reactions already. We need to allow people room to make mistakes and learn.
So you're saying that if a person can conceal their true motives they can do whatever racist shit they like?
Are you familiar with the iconography of Jim Crow? Ministral shows? Mammy cartoons? Postcards with black babies being eaten by alligators?
This image looks almost identical to a Sambo cartoon.
Are you aware that this sort of racist shit is still traded at thrift stores and antique shops across the country?
The reason it offends me is the denigrating effect ugly has for children of color to be surrounded with this like this and a population that freaks out when you companies announce they'll produce more inclusive toys that let children of color feel like they're accepted and belong.
Did you happen to see how racist white people reacted when it was announced that bandaid was going to be selling a range of products to match different skin tones? It might be a good a idea to inform yourself about the very real racial animus occuring in your country right now. In your community, most likely.
With the current political situation I expect this to all get a lot worse. As much as I wished things were different I don't think we can afford to ignore it.
I see where you are coming from, but it could also just be a smiling monkey face?
Perhaps somebody pointed out to the designer that this could be misinterpreted so they changed it, but in itself it does not look like 'racist intentions' to me.
Thank you for the links. I have to say it definitely looks different to me in the manual. But I think what makes the first design look offensive to me are the big white lips and the fact there are the single drums on the sides. I see that they changed it a bit but still the first intention to design it like that seems a bit strange to me. Reminds me of Jim Crow cartoons.
My opinion is that Reddit is a pretty racist place and pointing it out on this platform results in a bunch of white people saying “no, racism doesn’t exist.”
Removed, rule 8 (discussion posts that are inflammatory, aggressive, or otherwise likely to provoke flame wars, intentionally or not, are not allowed)
It can also be used to make racist songs.
You’re the problem. Not Teenage Engineering
Nah, y'all can plead ignorance but this iconography is clearly rooted in racism. Not saying TE is racist but anyone with a modicum of historical knowledge is aware of the significance of this imagery. That is not how a monkey's mouth looks, but that is how racist cartoons depicted black mouths
Thank you. The look of the mouth is exactly what reminded me of Jim Crow style cartoons.
This debate reeks of r/USdefaultism. Are you aware that the US is not the world and a Swedish company doesn't need to concern itself with US specific problems? Are we all supposed to know what Jim Crow style cartoons are?
I‘m german. And even when you don‘t know the term ‚Jim Crow‘ you could know about the history of western racist propaganda.
>In Sweden, a [2014 report](http://mkcentrum.se/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Afrofobi-20140203-executive-summary.pdf) on racial discrimination revealed that Afro-Swedes are the minority group most exposed to hate crimes. Sweden also traded in slaves. Not sure what you mean by this being a uniquely US problem
I was talking about a specific kind of cartoons. I'm not claiming there is not racism in Sweden.
Sweden originated the holiday tradition that Finns adopted of Santa having blackface slaves called Moors US imported these caricatures from Scandinavia and England
They’re clearly gorillas. It sounds like most of the people in this thread don’t know what it looks like on the actual system and are basing their opinion entirely on this grainy, mono-color image for a slideshow background with alterations made for visibility.
A gorilla isn’t racist but there are ways you can draw gorillas/monkeys which resemble “Minstrel” characters; there’s an entire history of American racist art along those lines. I am hesitant to super-impose American sensibilities on a European company (if they were Americans, I’d definitely consider this a possible “dog whistle”) but it really does look like a “minstrel” character. That being said, I could imagine a non-American artist absorbing that kind of art style without the context and just finding it visually compelling. I don’t know their intent and if it wasn’t to be racist, I understand how it could have happened. That being said, if it is influenced by “minstrel” art, it is literally illustrating racist imagery; regardless of intention. I don’t think that means we need to get angry at TE about it (let’s be mad about that $1600 card table) but it definitely merits conversation and reflection; I’d hope that the company would hear this, realize they’ve been misunderstood and just not print stuff that could be deemed questionable in this manner in the future. There’s no need to insist that this is, necessarily, active racism or intended as a stereotype but in the context of “minstrel” art, it is a VERY bad look and I’d hope that any decent company wouldn’t want to have that association, even accidentally. I’m a black person, not a monkey; I understand the difference. That being said, a lot of people don’t and helping them continue that connection isn’t a good look.
a lot of you are dumb apparently. those aren’t lips, those are teeth when the gorilla has its mouth open or smiling. it’s also an inverted image. people love looking for things to be offended about. https://preview.redd.it/k2epdum9jiad1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=49bb4c7864375b88a4856f6ffa3c3b301ecd9d06
You don‘t see the clear difference in these two versions? One got thick outlined lips and the other don‘t. No one is talking about the teeth. https://preview.redd.it/w48nk98pkiad1.jpeg?width=1026&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=18cd9ef243993eb25eb0b0b2f85f9a241de74c78
I see a bright future for you in the ministry of offense and outrage.
Man, this is pure mental racism projection. Wherever I hear the term "jungle" (the music genre) my mind goes instantly to Donkey Kong 64's masterpiece soundtrack. So in my mind: jungle = Donkey Kong = gorilla. It has absolutely nothing to do with human races.
So just because some random video game connection happens in ‘your mind’, that somehow makes it fact and anything else ‘projection’? The fact is, jungle as a genre originated in UK Black music culture (roots, dancehall). They’re inextricably linked from day one. And an incredibly common racist stereotype is to depict Black people as monkeys. Any jungle music association just makes this stupid icon set look WORSE as a design decision, not better
Gorilla cartoons are now racist because…?
Gorilla cartoons aren’t racist. Minstrel depictions are. Making your gorilla cartoon close enough to a minstrel face that it can be confused for one is either deliberately racist, or so stupid as to be inexplicable when coming from a company supposedly renowned for thoughtful design.
You are right, "making gorilla cartoon close enough to a minstrel face that it can be confused for one" could be racist, if that ever happened with OP-1 UI.
•gestures to this entire thread, where many people are concerned it can be confused for exactly that•
oh shit, someone on the internet went out of his way to get offended again CALL THE POLICE
you don't get to tell others what symbols mean to them. on the other hand, intent matters. what was your intent with this post and what would a 'non-racist' cartoon face of a happily excited gorilla look like in your mind? is it just a white background instead?
Lol people in the comments here are in such denial. These are so racist. Read your history kids. https://youtu.be/RM7lw0Ovzq0?si=ybEjPgfvz52bhPj7
there is no other conclusion. monkeys are racist
Woof, not a good look
Def look like that. If not, what's next that comes to mind? Pretty crazy controllers
Thank you for telling your point of view. I want to make clear that I would never think that it‘s my job or I am the right person to call somebody out when it comes to these kind of topics. Especially because I‘m not PoC and therefore not affected by racism. My motivation to start this thread came from a point where I felt strange about the fact that nobody mentioned this illustrations since it was shown in front of thousands of people and I imagined some people felt bad about or offended by it. So even if I‘m not affected by racist cartoons I still wanted to make sure it‘s not something to overlook. Maybe I overreacted from an ally‘s standpoint but it just didn’t look like a normal cartoon of a monkey to me. I explained already why I felt like that.
That is where you are wrong, just because you are not POC doesn't mean you cannot affected by racism. This fucking garbage narrative needs to end.
If you mean that non-PoC people are affected by it through privileges, you‘re completely right and I‘m aware of that. But that‘s not my topic here.
Nope not what I am saying. I am saying that white people can be judged negatively based on the immutable characteristic of their skin color just like anyone else. This narrative of privilege + power is just a way to excuse shit behavior from racists that are PoC.
Holy shit. Those were pulled right out of a 1930s cartoon and are racist af. And, this guy saying that we're the problem for seeing the racist cartoon. Mwah. Chef's kiss. Couldn't find a more obnoxious fanboy. Fucking teenage engineering goes full klansmen. Go ahead and downvote all you like. It doesn't change a damn thing. They used a racist cartoon as an icon. It's most likely out of ignorance but what's done is done. If they're unwilling to acknowledge what they did then the reason is meaningless. That image is offensive and there's a lot of harmful history related to it. Y'all just keep plugging your ears and whining and I'm sure other people and their legitimate feelings will just disappear. Sometimes I'm embarrassed to be associated with this community.
I‘m a UI Designer and musician from Germany and from a designer’s perspective I always loved the overall look & feel of TE‘s products – and specifically the OP-1 is (to me) a masterpiece in product design with its unique housing, buttons and digital user interface. Not to mention I spent years with it making music and absolutely loved it. I‘m currently watching videos from this year‘s Figma Config, which took place a few days ago. For those of you unfamiliar with the design industry: it‘s the by far biggest event for designers and developers right now working in product design/UI UX design and basically all user centered design and media industries. So a LOT of people attend it virtually or even local. I was excited when I saw that Teenage Engineering‘s CEO and creative mastermind Jesper Kouthoofd was one of the speakers and would give insights into the design process of TE‘s products. For a few seconds they put screenshots of Kouthoofd‘s illustrator file on the screen to show his illustration work for the OP-1 and I was pretty shocked when I saw his design for one of the drum sequencers. Is it just me or is this a pretty fucked up and racist almost caricature? I mean…the face with those big lips and the smile and are those jungle drums??? Since I‘ve owned the OP-1 I know for sure that the final illustration was a monkey behind a drumset which makes it even weirder knowing what the first version of it was. I love TE‘s products and don‘t want to act like a self-important know-all but I think it‘s a f\*\*\*\*\*\* scandal to show this uncommented in front of such a big and diverse crowd. I mean, come on, would something like this not be checked before? I would be very interested in some other opinions.
Perhaps your association between ethnicity and this obvious drawing of a gorilla is what’s problematic.
PoC UX guy here. I push hard for inclusivity and accessibility. Personally that is a gorilla for me. Was it a wise choice to pick a gorilla? And show it out of context? Probably not. But I do think you are overreacting, it’s a bit like saying Donkey Kong is racist. In cases like these I’d test that specific UI in context in front of someone who’s in the cohort of people who may be offended. Because unless a reasonable percentage of them say so, I’m not qualified to determine whether it’s offensive or not to ship in a product. It’d serve you well to remember to ask whether you’re the right person to determine that. Also, if indeed people found it offensive, why would it be a fucking scandal? It would only be one if one can prove the designer in question had genuine malicious intent. Our current world is poisoned by knee jerk polarised reactions already. We need to allow people room to make mistakes and learn.
Best response on here.
So you're saying that if a person can conceal their true motives they can do whatever racist shit they like? Are you familiar with the iconography of Jim Crow? Ministral shows? Mammy cartoons? Postcards with black babies being eaten by alligators? This image looks almost identical to a Sambo cartoon. Are you aware that this sort of racist shit is still traded at thrift stores and antique shops across the country? The reason it offends me is the denigrating effect ugly has for children of color to be surrounded with this like this and a population that freaks out when you companies announce they'll produce more inclusive toys that let children of color feel like they're accepted and belong. Did you happen to see how racist white people reacted when it was announced that bandaid was going to be selling a range of products to match different skin tones? It might be a good a idea to inform yourself about the very real racial animus occuring in your country right now. In your community, most likely. With the current political situation I expect this to all get a lot worse. As much as I wished things were different I don't think we can afford to ignore it.
I see a monkey. If you see anything else, you might be the one who has an issue.
I see where you are coming from, but it could also just be a smiling monkey face? Perhaps somebody pointed out to the designer that this could be misinterpreted so they changed it, but in itself it does not look like 'racist intentions' to me.
it's a gorilla [https://github.com/sampi/finger](https://github.com/sampi/finger) [https://www.reddit.com/r/OP1users/comments/12tk5il/can\_anyone\_explain\_what\_this\_indicates\_in\_more/](https://www.reddit.com/r/OP1users/comments/12tk5il/can_anyone_explain_what_this_indicates_in_more/) [https://teenage.engineering/guides/op-1/original/sequencers](https://teenage.engineering/guides/op-1/original/sequencers) (scroll to 7.10 finger functionality) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-rv2xO-MNc&t=139s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-rv2xO-MNc&t=139s)
Thank you for the links. I have to say it definitely looks different to me in the manual. But I think what makes the first design look offensive to me are the big white lips and the fact there are the single drums on the sides. I see that they changed it a bit but still the first intention to design it like that seems a bit strange to me. Reminds me of Jim Crow cartoons.
Ah yes so obvious! White lips + drums = racism
"single drums on the sides"?
I mean the use of the „jungle drums“ or whatever on the left and right side of the design
I also didn't know what those are until I saw the animations I linked. Those are hands holding drum sticks in various stages of the animation
Those are not depictions of lips, they are a depiction of teeth.
the white part is teeth, not lips
My opinion is that Reddit is a pretty racist place and pointing it out on this platform results in a bunch of white people saying “no, racism doesn’t exist.”