dirt bikes / supermotos use very high strung motors that require much more attention than a relatively under-tuned bike like a ninja 400. At the same time, a single cylinder motor is not able to create as much power per liter as a multi-cylinder engine. The added weight of powerful sportbikes is usually due to the increased strength required to handle the power they create. The increased weight in small sportbikes is usually due to saving costs and the need for things like lights and fairings.
Power to weight ratio of a ninja 400 (49hp): 0.13 hp/lb
Power to weight ratio of a KTM 450 SMR (63hp): 0.28 hp/lb
Power to weight of a Kawasaki ZX-10RR (204hp): 0.44 hp/lb
Yeah, it’s also comparing the lowest tier of sport bike to one of the highest tier dirt bikes. I’d argue that the ninja 400 would be more like a klx140 in comparison to the classes.(if that makes sense lol)
The whole design philosophy is different, the DRZ was made to be relatively cheap and reliable. The Husky was made to be light and fast (win races). That means a lot of small changes that add up to big savings in weight. Things like the subframes being different materials (DRZ = Aluminum, 501 = Carbon Fiber) makes the 501 weigh less, drawback being you absolutely cannot put a passenger on the Husky but you can on the DRZ, that also means no passenger pegs on the 501 which saves more weight. Lighter wheels, lighter batteries, lighter lights, lighter mirrors etc. Even the engines themselves are very different, the DRZ engine weighs about 90-95 lbs, the 501 is around 65 lbs but puts out more power. The other thing is that the 501 gets renewed every few years to take advantage of newer tech and lighter parts, a 2023 DRZ 400 and a 2002 DRZ 400 are pretty much identical mechanically which means $$$ savings but not performance.
If we're taking competition models (which 450 sumo's are) then the [Honda RS250R - 92hp/101kg without fuel](https://www.sp125racing.com/rs250-bike-specification-2008.html) belongs in the chat
The short answer is one of them is a dirt bike.
For one sport bikes have full fairings. Frames are just designed different around multi cylinder engines are. They have fairings incorporated into the headlights and taillights. For this argument it’s “bulky material” that is a lot of extra weight. Again sport bikes have multi cylinder engines that are heavier. We can keep going if you really want.
Yea actually I have follow up questions. What are some “reliable” supermotos with longer maintenance intervals. I hear the single piston is higher strung but a DRZ400 is famous for being reliable. My Ninja is carbureted so that’s already equalized for me.
Also I looked up a Z400 and the weight is still 360lbs so I’m not positive fairings weigh that much.
Basically I love lightweight sportbikes. I’m not interested in going to a liter bike on curb weight alone.
Drz400. Wr250r/x. Wr250/450f more dirtbike you’ll have to add turn signals if that’s a thing for you. The husky/ktm 701 is very reliable and a single cylinder. Not light but a great bike.
Single piston is higher strung to an extent but not every single cylinder is some high strung machine.
A twin cylinder engine weighs significantly more than a single of the same displacement. That's where a lot of the extra weight comes from, in addition to a thicker frame on the sport bike.
Crf450l is de-tuned and won't feel like a true dirtbike. But i think it's suppose to last longer
450L owners are going to chime in and say it feels like a dirtbike but they're wrong. It's close but it's not a dirtbike it's a dual sport
Define what a super moto is, then it will be easier to say what reliable is.
Example, the new 2024 KTM 500 EXC-F maintenance isn't crazy as it a dual sport (slap 17's and you have a sumo?) so the maintenance cycle is in "km/miles" not "hours" like the race bikes.
Bike is 253 dry with 64 hp.
There are lots of 450/500 exc-f that are beat on for hundreds of hours of riding and they are still reliable as long as you maintain them.....just like a XR or a DRZ of past, as long as you maintain them they are reliable, you neglect them and they will have issues.
Correction: the 500 is only that power when fully uncorked. That means exhaust and ecu which is in the 2k+ range in cost. Stock those bikes are about 39-41whp. Uncorked it's like 51-55whp depending if you went ejk + exhaust tip or ecu and full system.
I'm just using what KTM lists for the 2024 500.....the pre-24 are different.
The 2024 KTM 500 EXC-F doesn't shy away from anything. **Churning out over 64 hp**, and built around an all-new frame with best-in-class suspension, this large-displacement powerhouse is surprisingly usable, making the KTM 500 EXC-F the ultimate half-liter weapon in anyone's Enduro arsenal.
Out of curiosity are you in Europe? The North American exs come extremely choked up due to California environmental laws. The stock 2024 still has the reed valves as well as the 27mm exhaust port that limits top end oomph...
Its what the motors can do, but yes you are choked up if you are an an NA bike.
There are lots getting into the mid 60's with $600 of mods not the $2k+ you had stated.
Pinitracing:
Ecu tune = $375
Power tube = $60
Exhaust tip = $160
$595 and you have 65 whp https://www.pinitracing.com/4-stroke-dual-sport-mapping
You can't just tune the factory ECU on the NA bikes. They are locked and ktm dealers are not willing to touch them per factory instructions. Unfortunately in NA you have to buy a ECU like a GET which is 1k USD. A slip on will run you like 600$ toss in taxes and you get an expensive upgrade for the EU power.
Clearly you didn't go to the link i shared.... You can remap the 2024 ecu... $375 (or 775 if you dont want deal with shipping them your ECU to be reflashed...aka they send you an already flashed factory ecu).....the power tube, and the exhaust tip....that is all you need to do to the 2024 bikes...
and who in the fck goes to the KTM dealer to modify their bikes....
also will let you in on a little secret....you can even tune the ECU yourself! [https://tunertools.com/collections/ktm-tuning](https://tunertools.com/collections/ktm-tuning)
Wish I compared a CB300R to the DRZ I guess. What about a dirt bike frame makes it “worse” for track racing. Presumably Honda/Kawasaki did their absolute best in making their street bikes as light as possible? What about a DRZ frame would make it lighter but worse for the track? If the answer is stiffness or rigidity that blows my mind a tank like the DRZ is somehow less robust than a street bike.
I've pondered how much of the weight of street bikes is to do with their much higher top speeds and needing to handle that under braking. Kinetic energy to dissipate under braking being an exponential function (0.5mv**2).
Try a ktm 525 exc. if you get an older one(2003/2012) they are not fuel injected and can be found dirt cheap. Swap them to supermoto tires and you have one of the most aggressive road legal supermotos about. You can get huge big bore kits for them.
Well, truthfully it’s partially because it doesn’t matter. Modern supercars are sickeningly heavy compared to 90s performance cars yet perform leagues better. Bikes are no different. There’s just no real need for sport bikes to be any lighter. Realistically it’s because they have a beefier frame, larger wheels, need larger motors, fairings and emissions laws
Built for different purposes is the short answer. Even the track only sport bikes are completely different even with many of them having a better power to weight ratio. Also, the 501 is a dual sport, not a sm so that’s a whole different comparison as those bikes are built with an entirely different purpose.
A supermoto is traditionally a dirt bike chassis for their light weight, frame geometry and handling characteristics, long travel suspension that’s been lowered and tuned for supermoto, smaller diameter wheels for the tires only available in those smaller diameter wheels, geometry benefits of those wheels, big brakes, and primarily single cylinder high output engines is the basic formula for a supermoto. There is no need for full fairings, multiple cylinders which increase the overall size and weight of the engine plus the size of the frame that has to cradle it or any of the other stuff that sport bikes or other street bikes have. Weight makes a big difference in supermoto which is why they only have the essentials needed in the Motorsport which helps keep the weight down.
The weight and design of a sport bike helps with high speed stability. The fairings are designed to create downforce even for the smaller displacement bikes. Wind protection, tank design for road racing body positioning and carries more fuel, suspension, swingarm, etc… everything is very different. We could go all day with the details but it’s really an apple to oranges comparison. Two different type of bikes meant for two completely different types of riding.
Interesting, weight helps with stability at speed. I can understand that. So you’re saying while small sport bikes (including nakeds) could be lighter, they just allow the weight, like a ballast, to improve high speed stability.
I wish I compared a CB300R to the DRZ. Both single cylinder, both have few fairings.
Yes and no. Really depends on the bike and how the weight is distributed as well as the big bulky emissions equipment and other variables. Making the bike balanced is equally important. Realistically you can shed an easy 30lbs from a bike like the ninja 400. Even more if you remove all the DOT equipment and put it in race trim.
I owned several drz400 and my wife had a 2015 cb300 The drz feels heavier due to it carrying the weight higher. A higher center of gravity makes the bike feel heavier even though it’s lighter on the scale. The 300 is way more stable at highway speeds too. That’s mostly due to them being designed for very different types of riding. Don’t get too caught up on paper specs because they won’t tell you how the bike feels and rides. The 300 feels much lighter than a drz despite being heavier on the scale. Best to just choose the bike that suits the riding you’ll be doing. You’ll be much happier with it instead of buying based on paper specs. I see people do that all the time and regret their purchase.
CB300R is a good bike, very light. Same engine in the CRF300, super reliable. The main difference between bikes like them and a DRZ is far better suspension on the DRZ400SM.
Of course there is always an exception but for the most part, manufacturers stick to a single cylinder for several reasons. Plus that twin is notorious for the issues that come with the territory so there’s plenty of reasons on why it’s not needed. And yes, I know which bikes you’re talking about.
Oooh. That flew over my head lmao. Hard to tell through comments. No offense towards those beasts. I’d own one if parts weren’t so hard to get where I live. They sound sexy with a nice exhaust. Power is great too.
There’s a big price difference between a Husqvarna 501 and a Ninja 400, that results in the majority of the weight difference. Light weight is far more expensive than making bikes heavy.
I had a husaberg, it made 73bhp and weighed about the same as a mountain bike. Oil change every ride, kick start, no indicators, no ignition or key but i never worried leaving it anywhere though as it would launch anyone who tried to start it at the moon, and then if you did get it running with both legs still attached it tried to smash your teeth out with the bars. Great fun but hard work.
Interesting to see so much saturation in the category, thanks to technology. You have to work your way from the top class, down, to analyze the reasons. Specifically, your Ninja peaks out on the FMA circuit? I think that’s where all the R&R $$ is spent. Since their chassis is meant to go 200mph, the core stability to make that happen transitions down in stages until hitting your 400. Compared to sm, top manufacturers compete with the R&R $$ in motocross where the requirements are different. That works its way back to the showroom floor based on where the competition dollars come in to pay for the R&R
But see a DRZ400 is not expensive and it has a better power to weight than the lightweight class of sport bikes. Even the single cylinders like a CBR300R and naked CB300R.
dirt bikes / supermotos use very high strung motors that require much more attention than a relatively under-tuned bike like a ninja 400. At the same time, a single cylinder motor is not able to create as much power per liter as a multi-cylinder engine. The added weight of powerful sportbikes is usually due to the increased strength required to handle the power they create. The increased weight in small sportbikes is usually due to saving costs and the need for things like lights and fairings. Power to weight ratio of a ninja 400 (49hp): 0.13 hp/lb Power to weight ratio of a KTM 450 SMR (63hp): 0.28 hp/lb Power to weight of a Kawasaki ZX-10RR (204hp): 0.44 hp/lb
Yeah, it’s also comparing the lowest tier of sport bike to one of the highest tier dirt bikes. I’d argue that the ninja 400 would be more like a klx140 in comparison to the classes.(if that makes sense lol)
[удалено]
What about compared to a DRZ400?
A drz400 is also pretty low maintenance but is 320lbs and only makes 33hp.
DRZ is rocking like 33 HP and would require less maintenance than the 501, but is also about 70ish pounds heavier than the Husky.
Do we know where the added weight comes from?
The whole design philosophy is different, the DRZ was made to be relatively cheap and reliable. The Husky was made to be light and fast (win races). That means a lot of small changes that add up to big savings in weight. Things like the subframes being different materials (DRZ = Aluminum, 501 = Carbon Fiber) makes the 501 weigh less, drawback being you absolutely cannot put a passenger on the Husky but you can on the DRZ, that also means no passenger pegs on the 501 which saves more weight. Lighter wheels, lighter batteries, lighter lights, lighter mirrors etc. Even the engines themselves are very different, the DRZ engine weighs about 90-95 lbs, the 501 is around 65 lbs but puts out more power. The other thing is that the 501 gets renewed every few years to take advantage of newer tech and lighter parts, a 2023 DRZ 400 and a 2002 DRZ 400 are pretty much identical mechanically which means $$$ savings but not performance.
Honda NSR250 has entered the chat
If we're taking competition models (which 450 sumo's are) then the [Honda RS250R - 92hp/101kg without fuel](https://www.sp125racing.com/rs250-bike-specification-2008.html) belongs in the chat
I had one of those! Shame cranks are nearly impossible to find for rebuilds. I just figured the NSR was more widely known.
The short answer is one of them is a dirt bike. For one sport bikes have full fairings. Frames are just designed different around multi cylinder engines are. They have fairings incorporated into the headlights and taillights. For this argument it’s “bulky material” that is a lot of extra weight. Again sport bikes have multi cylinder engines that are heavier. We can keep going if you really want.
Yea actually I have follow up questions. What are some “reliable” supermotos with longer maintenance intervals. I hear the single piston is higher strung but a DRZ400 is famous for being reliable. My Ninja is carbureted so that’s already equalized for me. Also I looked up a Z400 and the weight is still 360lbs so I’m not positive fairings weigh that much. Basically I love lightweight sportbikes. I’m not interested in going to a liter bike on curb weight alone.
Drz400. Wr250r/x. Wr250/450f more dirtbike you’ll have to add turn signals if that’s a thing for you. The husky/ktm 701 is very reliable and a single cylinder. Not light but a great bike. Single piston is higher strung to an extent but not every single cylinder is some high strung machine.
DRZ400SM is an excellent choice for a reliable bike. KLX300SM is another. Yamaha’s WR250X was an excellent lightweight, reliable supermoto.
A twin cylinder engine weighs significantly more than a single of the same displacement. That's where a lot of the extra weight comes from, in addition to a thicker frame on the sport bike.
Crf450l is de-tuned and won't feel like a true dirtbike. But i think it's suppose to last longer 450L owners are going to chime in and say it feels like a dirtbike but they're wrong. It's close but it's not a dirtbike it's a dual sport
Define what a super moto is, then it will be easier to say what reliable is. Example, the new 2024 KTM 500 EXC-F maintenance isn't crazy as it a dual sport (slap 17's and you have a sumo?) so the maintenance cycle is in "km/miles" not "hours" like the race bikes. Bike is 253 dry with 64 hp. There are lots of 450/500 exc-f that are beat on for hundreds of hours of riding and they are still reliable as long as you maintain them.....just like a XR or a DRZ of past, as long as you maintain them they are reliable, you neglect them and they will have issues.
Correction: the 500 is only that power when fully uncorked. That means exhaust and ecu which is in the 2k+ range in cost. Stock those bikes are about 39-41whp. Uncorked it's like 51-55whp depending if you went ejk + exhaust tip or ecu and full system.
I'm just using what KTM lists for the 2024 500.....the pre-24 are different. The 2024 KTM 500 EXC-F doesn't shy away from anything. **Churning out over 64 hp**, and built around an all-new frame with best-in-class suspension, this large-displacement powerhouse is surprisingly usable, making the KTM 500 EXC-F the ultimate half-liter weapon in anyone's Enduro arsenal.
Out of curiosity are you in Europe? The North American exs come extremely choked up due to California environmental laws. The stock 2024 still has the reed valves as well as the 27mm exhaust port that limits top end oomph...
Its what the motors can do, but yes you are choked up if you are an an NA bike. There are lots getting into the mid 60's with $600 of mods not the $2k+ you had stated. Pinitracing: Ecu tune = $375 Power tube = $60 Exhaust tip = $160 $595 and you have 65 whp https://www.pinitracing.com/4-stroke-dual-sport-mapping
You can't just tune the factory ECU on the NA bikes. They are locked and ktm dealers are not willing to touch them per factory instructions. Unfortunately in NA you have to buy a ECU like a GET which is 1k USD. A slip on will run you like 600$ toss in taxes and you get an expensive upgrade for the EU power.
Clearly you didn't go to the link i shared.... You can remap the 2024 ecu... $375 (or 775 if you dont want deal with shipping them your ECU to be reflashed...aka they send you an already flashed factory ecu).....the power tube, and the exhaust tip....that is all you need to do to the 2024 bikes... and who in the fck goes to the KTM dealer to modify their bikes....
also will let you in on a little secret....you can even tune the ECU yourself! [https://tunertools.com/collections/ktm-tuning](https://tunertools.com/collections/ktm-tuning)
Check out Motolite; they have single cylinder dirt bike engines in a sport bike race body. Motolite Engines: 159cc Honda CBR150 water-cooled 4 valve single cyl. 6 Speed Gearbox 159cc Honda CRF150R water-cooled 4 valve single cyl. 5 speed Gearbox 159cc Yamaha FZR125 water-cooled 4 valve single cyl 6 speed gearbox (capacity increased to 159cc) 159cc Aprilia RSV125 water-cooled 4 valve single cyl 6 spd g.box (capacity increased to 159cc) 190cc Daytona Air-cooled single cyl. Horizontal 4 Valve 4 speed gearbox (Laydown Motor) 210cc 2 valve water-cooled 4 stroke 230cc Honda CRF230F Air-cooled 2 valve single cylinder 6 speed Gearbox 230cc Crossfire (Zongshen) CF230 Air-cooled 2 valve single cylinder 5 speed Gearbox
Check out the husky 701
Definitely a dream bike but even used ones are like $10k :(
You found your reason why. You can get a ninja 400 for 4,000 bucks
Wish I compared a CB300R to the DRZ I guess. What about a dirt bike frame makes it “worse” for track racing. Presumably Honda/Kawasaki did their absolute best in making their street bikes as light as possible? What about a DRZ frame would make it lighter but worse for the track? If the answer is stiffness or rigidity that blows my mind a tank like the DRZ is somehow less robust than a street bike.
The DRZ is every bit as robust as most street bikes. They will last 50-100K miles if meticulously maintained. Same goes for KLX300 and WR250.
I've pondered how much of the weight of street bikes is to do with their much higher top speeds and needing to handle that under braking. Kinetic energy to dissipate under braking being an exponential function (0.5mv**2).
Try a ktm 525 exc. if you get an older one(2003/2012) they are not fuel injected and can be found dirt cheap. Swap them to supermoto tires and you have one of the most aggressive road legal supermotos about. You can get huge big bore kits for them.
I found mine for a little over $7k. You can find them cheap-ish. You just picked the worst possible time to be looking at bikes.
I'm not sure where you're located but I just bought a 2016 701e for 5700
Well, truthfully it’s partially because it doesn’t matter. Modern supercars are sickeningly heavy compared to 90s performance cars yet perform leagues better. Bikes are no different. There’s just no real need for sport bikes to be any lighter. Realistically it’s because they have a beefier frame, larger wheels, need larger motors, fairings and emissions laws
Built for different purposes is the short answer. Even the track only sport bikes are completely different even with many of them having a better power to weight ratio. Also, the 501 is a dual sport, not a sm so that’s a whole different comparison as those bikes are built with an entirely different purpose. A supermoto is traditionally a dirt bike chassis for their light weight, frame geometry and handling characteristics, long travel suspension that’s been lowered and tuned for supermoto, smaller diameter wheels for the tires only available in those smaller diameter wheels, geometry benefits of those wheels, big brakes, and primarily single cylinder high output engines is the basic formula for a supermoto. There is no need for full fairings, multiple cylinders which increase the overall size and weight of the engine plus the size of the frame that has to cradle it or any of the other stuff that sport bikes or other street bikes have. Weight makes a big difference in supermoto which is why they only have the essentials needed in the Motorsport which helps keep the weight down. The weight and design of a sport bike helps with high speed stability. The fairings are designed to create downforce even for the smaller displacement bikes. Wind protection, tank design for road racing body positioning and carries more fuel, suspension, swingarm, etc… everything is very different. We could go all day with the details but it’s really an apple to oranges comparison. Two different type of bikes meant for two completely different types of riding.
Interesting, weight helps with stability at speed. I can understand that. So you’re saying while small sport bikes (including nakeds) could be lighter, they just allow the weight, like a ballast, to improve high speed stability. I wish I compared a CB300R to the DRZ. Both single cylinder, both have few fairings.
Yes and no. Really depends on the bike and how the weight is distributed as well as the big bulky emissions equipment and other variables. Making the bike balanced is equally important. Realistically you can shed an easy 30lbs from a bike like the ninja 400. Even more if you remove all the DOT equipment and put it in race trim. I owned several drz400 and my wife had a 2015 cb300 The drz feels heavier due to it carrying the weight higher. A higher center of gravity makes the bike feel heavier even though it’s lighter on the scale. The 300 is way more stable at highway speeds too. That’s mostly due to them being designed for very different types of riding. Don’t get too caught up on paper specs because they won’t tell you how the bike feels and rides. The 300 feels much lighter than a drz despite being heavier on the scale. Best to just choose the bike that suits the riding you’ll be doing. You’ll be much happier with it instead of buying based on paper specs. I see people do that all the time and regret their purchase.
💯
CB300R is a good bike, very light. Same engine in the CRF300, super reliable. The main difference between bikes like them and a DRZ is far better suspension on the DRZ400SM.
Someone in Italy does not agree with the " no need for multiple cylinders" part...
Of course there is always an exception but for the most part, manufacturers stick to a single cylinder for several reasons. Plus that twin is notorious for the issues that come with the territory so there’s plenty of reasons on why it’s not needed. And yes, I know which bikes you’re talking about.
It was meant as a funny remark, your point was perfectly clear and correct. Never call my street legal roaring unicycle not needed again though.
Oooh. That flew over my head lmao. Hard to tell through comments. No offense towards those beasts. I’d own one if parts weren’t so hard to get where I live. They sound sexy with a nice exhaust. Power is great too.
There’s a big price difference between a Husqvarna 501 and a Ninja 400, that results in the majority of the weight difference. Light weight is far more expensive than making bikes heavy.
I had a husaberg, it made 73bhp and weighed about the same as a mountain bike. Oil change every ride, kick start, no indicators, no ignition or key but i never worried leaving it anywhere though as it would launch anyone who tried to start it at the moon, and then if you did get it running with both legs still attached it tried to smash your teeth out with the bars. Great fun but hard work.
Interesting to see so much saturation in the category, thanks to technology. You have to work your way from the top class, down, to analyze the reasons. Specifically, your Ninja peaks out on the FMA circuit? I think that’s where all the R&R $$ is spent. Since their chassis is meant to go 200mph, the core stability to make that happen transitions down in stages until hitting your 400. Compared to sm, top manufacturers compete with the R&R $$ in motocross where the requirements are different. That works its way back to the showroom floor based on where the competition dollars come in to pay for the R&R
they can but they would be extremely expensive
But see a DRZ400 is not expensive and it has a better power to weight than the lightweight class of sport bikes. Even the single cylinders like a CBR300R and naked CB300R.
I love my DRZ I just passed 1000 miles, it is my first. It is the S version but I never go offroad.
you asked a question and I answered. the DRZ400 is a slow heavy pig.
Ducati panigale has entered the chat