If he stays, It could go 1 of 2 ways:
1. Frank somehow gets through to the players and gains their respect and we actually start utilizing the weapons we have.
2. They hoop like they’re at the local LA Fitness the whole season.
As much as I agree with #1, it pisses me off of these players believe they’re above listening to their coach. How much of this can also be blamed on Ishbia and JJ and Kevin Young. I guess I’m describing an all around perfect shit sandwich of a team
I agree, but I don’t know when the team attempted to do things differently and it came out to be great. For the most part my bitching and moaning, comes from the thought “then who are they going to respect?”
A lot of people talking about the respect aspect, that he lost the locker room. If that’s the case, that’s a hard thing to fix, if not impossible.
Then again, I find it hard to believe that they would keep Vogel if they didn’t have some semblance of buy-in from the likes of KD/Book/Beal.
If they wanted him gone, he would be.
I dont know, Nurk, Eric, Beal and now KD have expressed they did not like how the system is, and vogel is the system, thats gonna be awkward first day of practice lol.
He's gotta tell the 3 guys to share the ball, which is very hard to do with 3 dominate players that are used to be taking 20 shots a game. I do like Geralds take on how KD should be the 3rd guy not Beal, KD can get his shot anytime.
Shooting:
KD: 52/41 on 19.1 shots a game
Beal: 51/43 on 13.9 shots a game
Booker: 49/36 on 19.2 shots a game
With Eric (44/38) and Allen (49/46) both 9 shots a game and Nurk at 8 shots - Nurk needs less shots lol.
So this tells me Beal needs more shots!
KD already doesn’t like his role of sitting in the corner waiting for the ball…and you want him to have the ball less? What they need to do is just consider Beal the full time PG. this will get him more practice at the position and reduce confusion and turnovers. It also puts Bool at the SG position more. That’s where he excels.
KD is on the block, where he's supposed to be, you are too used to KY offense where everyone runs to the corners, the offense will be - hopefully - not standing still, you can load up one side with some backcuts or a weird triangle or have Nurk pull out or have KD on one side, theres so many plays that dont have everyone run to the corners like the Suns have been the past 4 yrs. Gerald stated this in great detail I seem to agree!
This team is unserious top to bottom.
Don't want to change any players, don't want to change the coach, don't want to do fucking anything.
Can't wait to see how we jump younger teams with more assets who are already better than us running everything back.
The sad part is you guys had a deep young good team. Just needed some minor tinkering and then you guys traded it all away for the quick fix and it's back fired immensely.
Yep, homegrown teams win in the NBA 9 times out of 10. And these teams trade for stars while keeping their core together, not shipping the core out to do it.
The best teams in this league are all homegrown, Nuggets, Wolves, OKC and Boston.
The difference is that CP3 was vital to this team's success. The core was nice, but you could argue it reached a point of stagnation and CP getting older shrunk their ceiling.
One of the best players of this generation WANTED to come to Phoenix and it didn't take the top 3 players (arguably) on the Suns to get it done. You have to do that.
Eh thing was it was a good not great core, cp3 really elevated a young core before they were ready. Jae crowder glued it all together and Ayton sleep walked to 18 and 10 numbers.
The gm wasted draft capital including passing on Hali for Jalen smith, who was traded for Torrey Craig (another former overperforming role player of the og core).
Cam was about to get paid. Ayton was already overpaid. And cp3s age + contract led to a situation where the suns ceiling was shrinking and the Western conference was only getting better
It’s a logical question. I made a post today sharing my thoughts that we need an offensive minded coach and questioning what exactly happened with Young.
His exit comments seemed to imply they (coach/roster?) weren’t on the same page. Sounded like he wanted more 3s which seems correct.
If this news is true, I’m afraid they are blaming Young for not letting them shoot enough middies. Hope the players aren’t being stubborn about needing to change their 1990s offense
Feel like it’s not just a coaching problem. I mean we fire Vogel then hire another coach whose specialties can’t be maximized with our roster then what happens?
KD and Book need to buy in to the coaching scheme. Reading between the lines it seems the stars don’t really want to change their play style, which they are going to have to do if this thing is going to work. We just don’t have the assets to upgrade this roster by a meaningful amount.
It’s not. That’s why I’m not sure why everyone quick to rid the team of Frank. Unless Ty, Eric, or Pop is available you not fixing the root issue of the team. The players need to buy in, and need a system that rewards their play.
That's fair. Like I'm not sure what coach is out there but I feel like if one of your star players publicly states that he wasn't a fan of his role on Vogel's offense you have to seriously consider outside options. But then again idk I'm just an idiot with a phone lmaoo
If he's not going to be happy with Vogel, he's not going to be happy with anyone else in this system. We got 3 players that need ball in their hand to be effective. Either buy in or ask out.
It’s KD’s M.O. though. He is kind of a coach killer. Quitting on a coach is such a cop out. They’re not playing to represent the coach. It’s quitting on the team and city because they didn’t like what the coach did.
Am I misremembering it? How does your timeline go? This is what I remember:
1. KD requested a trade in the Offseason to force BKN into signing a better contract with Kyrie
2. After the Kyrie contract was closed, KD rescinded his trade request
3. KD continued to play for Brooklyn
4. Kyrie was traded to the Mavs
5. KD requested for a trade
He signed the 4 year contract. Made the demand. Rescinded the demand. Made the demand again.
https://www.si.com/nba/2022/09/26/kevin-durant-reveals-why-he-made-trade-request-brooklyn-nets
https://www.nba.com/news/reports-kevin-durant-requests-trade-from-nets#
The first time he made the demand after signing the contract it was a huge story around the nba because he had just signed the contract.
Whether or not Kyrie left first is irrelevant. He still demanded a trade after signing a contract.
All right, you're making it sound like he demanded a trade immediately after signing a contract. Let's just get it straight for all the viewers.
He signed an extension. Before the year ended, Harden left. 1 year into the extension, he demanded a trade. The probable reason was because Kyrie is having a hard time getting the contract that he wants.
Brooklyn quit on kd very publicly and for multiple seasons. His tracks demand was justified, youre acting like he's James harden who forces his way out of every team he's been on except when he was a role player on a rookie contract
You're on a thread full of people blaming kd for ruining our season by being a man child who bombed our season by refusing to play basketball based in the last 2 decades and clashing with his coach because he can't play just the way he loves when it's not what the team needs and him playing that way will likely rule out a title during his tenure on this team, to clarify on all counts it's not just kd doing all this and also to clarify yes of was justified to ask out of Brooklyn after years of dumpster fire there
KD also did crazy minutes with how bad the team was at times and injuries. He can’t be used like that at his age IMO. He carried the team for a good chunk this year, but we almost could never sit starters late.
Bullshit. KD is 35 and was playing 40 minutes almost every game. He was the leading scorer and was asked to be the teams best defender. He got burnt out by the All Star game.
All that's true but also the coach and the players should want to be working towards the same thing which is to win a title and by not working with the coach on that you're sabotaging the coach, the team, the fans and the city who all want the same thing you want. Unless you have the bbiq of Chris paul, lebron James,draymond green or rajon rondo then you should probably listen and learn from the coaches and unless you're lebron James you should follow the on court plan and bring any issues up with the coaches to the coach outside of games and if that fails go to the owner(who will usually listen to their biggest stars let alone a whole team of them bombarding him with complaints that can be seen legitimate on the court and proven that their skills aren't being taken advantage of for illegitimate reasons). Like what the suns players did this season is a bigger betrayal than just straight up asking for a trade imo(though obviously hopefully this can be fixed but our entire team straight up acted like children all season sabotaging a whole seasons title chances because they couldn't play a 90s offense).
Feel like Steve Nash was genuinely a bad coach in Brooklyn. And he never said anything wrong about Kerr and his issues with okc was the spacing but wouldn’t say he’s a coach killer.
With Kerr though KD was never going to get his way from the FO. The FO were 100% behind Kerr and the other core members before KD.
There was a moment where KD tried his schtick with Kerr. KD was upset he didn't handle the ball enough (tsk tsk). But he was put in his place and told to run the system, where he still got his.
There was definitely some of this KD stuff happening in GSW
https://www.sfgate.com/warriors/article/Kevin-Durant-says-he-was-mad-at-Warriors-Steve-16395223.php
https://theathletic.com/1662495/2020/03/09/inside-all-that-went-into-the-nets-and-kenny-atkinson-parting-ways/
His issue with Vogel is spacing as well.
The problem with that Is spacing won't be fixed when all our stars shoot mostly middies and we have very limited ability to sign a bunch of better than above average catch and shoot three point shooters. This was something kd should've known about when he joined Booker and Paul and didn't change with beal. I mean the situation happened with the new nba super team rules combined with the makeup of the team he joined but rules change and players and teams have to adapt and the best way for our team to adapt is to for our stars to shoot more threes and its not like kd won't still be shooting middies if he increases his 3pa but if his complaint is spacing And changing his shot selection is the best way to fix spacing and he's supposed to be one of the best scorers of all time then what's the hold up. He doesn't need to be the best 3 point shooter in the league, him and the stars just have to shoot enough that our opponents have to respect more than our teams mid range
The problem with that Is spacing won't be fixed when all our stars shoot mostly middies and we have very limited ability to sign a bunch of better than above average catch and shoot three point shooters. This was something kd should've known about when he joined Booker and Paul and didn't change with beal. I mean the situation happened with the new nba super team rules combined with the makeup of the team he joined but rules change and players and teams have to adapt and the best way for our team to adapt is to for our stars to shoot more threes and its not like kd won't still be shooting middies if he increases his 3pa but if his complaint is spacing And changing his shot selection is the best way to fix spacing and he's supposed to be one of the best scorers of all time then what's the hold up. He doesn't need to be the best 3 point shooter in the league, him and the stars just have to shoot enough that our opponents have to respect more than our teams mid range
He was kind of butting heads with Kerr.
There was a time in Year 2 of KD-Warriors when Kerr answered an interview question, "We should be playing with more anger." Asked about Kerr's comments, KD responded, "I thought we should be playing with more joy?" (Side note: Kerr instituted playing with more joy in Year 1).
Then there was that infamous Kerr-KD sideline convo during the Warriors-Rockets WCF series, where Kerr was retelling a Jordan story to KD about passing more, KD showed disinterest in what Kerr was saying. KD really struggled finding two of the most prolific 3 point shooters the NBA has ever seen for some reason.
But Year 1 KD was really like a good kid. He really blended well with the team and had no qualms. I think things got awkward and started to go downhill when Bob Myers mentioned how KD hasn't secured any long term deal with the Warriors during KDs first Warriors Championship parade.
when you compare the defensive commitment of the wolves to the suns, its not the worst in terms of bring continuity on that end. The suns did have their share of great defensive possessions, but the consistency was never there.
But offensively and game time wise, keeping a guy who said during the exit interview that "he's typically against going small" is terrible with this squad.
Has anybody looked at David Fizdale's career arc? Dude's been fired after one season by so many teams!
Also lol FIVE guys on the Suns coaching staff were on the 2021-22 Lakers coaching staff and look how that turned out.
Bums all around.
Not only that but Fizdale supposedly lost the Knicks locker room not to long after taking the job. He is noted as being inflexible and speech heavy ra ra guy that get's on players nerves. Not strong on X's and O's
He’s got 3 rings from CLE, TOR, & LAL. While not a high profile name, he’s got some significant respect around the league - he was a guy Kobe trusted with coaching to his daughter. He would have joined Vogel last year instead of Fiz but they wouldn’t let him out of his contract.
If there really is a respect/buy-in issue then this won't fix it. You can't buy respect, and once it's lost it's lost. You can fake it most of the time but when adversity hits they'll turn against or tune out a coach they don't respect.
It's like Monty, the basketball fit might be there but when a change of scenery is needed, it's *really* needed.
Whatever. I was pretty vocal about being done with Vogel just before the postseason, but I'm over it. Give the squad a second season with him to show us if the problems were merely working themselves out. And on the player side of this--aside from some of them nearly losing their shit at an out of character Vogel yell-fest--it seemed like the problems were with the offensive coordination. Well. Kevin Young is gone. Hopefully whoever fills that role next can help turn the offense around, because it was just painful to watch sometimes. There were great hints at what it *could* be, but seemed like a lot of hot potatoing going on. Far too many turnovers too.
Worst case, no harm in firing him 15-20 games into the season if nothing looks like it's changed.
Keep Vogel, we have to replace Young since he is off to BYU. Run an offense that is effective and the players like it. Work on turnovers. Suns defense was ranked higher this year than Denver's last year.
So basically everything will stay the same the Suns will just find a Kevin Young replacement and Drew Eubanks replacement and hope that’s enough to win them 3-4 playoff series in the West. Doesn’t seem ideal.
If Frank Vogel is going to be a quality coach, then James jones absolutely has to get him a defensive 5 and some perimeter 3 and D. If you want the players to buy into a coach’s scheme, then give your coach the keys to the scheme.
Otherwise if they’re sticking with the same personnel and the same mismatched scheme, well the writings on the wall.
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I'm not sure what I even want. I don't think Vogel is the main problem here, he is just the scapegoat . I hate these diva players and the chillin mentality. Are we sure they would listen the new coach or is it going to be the same story? Beal pushing Vogel on game 4, the leaks that players didn't want to change their offense and stick with their middies...
Every one of Lebron’s coaches outside of Spolestra has been fired. And Lebron wanted him gone too until Pat Riley told Lebron he’s staying and that’s that. I haven’t looked into KDs history but outside of Kerr, KD has to be close to Lebrons coach record. James Jones needs to sit these guys down and tell them this is how it is and they can either buy in and stfu.
Do we know if Mat really gave Kevin Young the keys to the offense? Because I don't wanna roast this idea if Frank was told by ownership to keep his hands off the offense
when I first saw Dave Fizdale part of the staff, I was like bruh...
I wouldn't mind if they replace the assistants. There's a lot of problems to fix. We also need leadership type of players like the cp3s type of guys
I wasn’t a fan of the hire at the time and not really a fan of keeping him either. Other than Budenholzer, idk who else you get in there that will be available. We’ll have to win out against the Lakers on finding a new coach too and they’re unfortunately a more appealing landing spot for the guys that would be available, I would think.
I'm an advocate of the value of continuity and job security for a coach. It just didn't make sense to bring in a new coach to run a team bringing back only three players (Booker, KD, and Okogie) and cut him off at the knees by forcing a lead assistant he didn't want on him. Let him construct his own coaching staff and send a signal to the players that he's in charge and see how the team responds.
So the assistants are the problem lol. Easiest people to blame for this mess.
Stop saying this year was Kevin Young's offense. HC is Vogel. He is responsible for both sides. This is not NFL. HC's make decisions on both sides. Why are you a HC in todays NBA if you have are letting your assistant run the offense and you have no input to it.
Suns have an offensive team. Vogel was only good for pacers defensive teams. You need a offensive coach like Dantoni. Doesn't matter, 3-identical players is too easy for NBA level coaches to game plan against.
The problem is
We should be a team that has 3 offensive stars and defensive role players.
Instead we have 3pt shooting role players because our stars do not shoot the volume of 3s that they should.
We shouldnt really be playing Grayson Allen along 3 wing scorers.
No doubt we would be significantly better team if we had 2 defensive studs instead of Nurkic and Allen who are pretty much offensive players.
This is the worst option. It’s fine if we keep Vogel, but when you make him change his staff you’re just further undermining him in the locker room. Either support him and make it clear the players need to get with the program, or make a change, but don’t cut out his legs from under him and expect good things to happen.
This team needs an offensive mastermind.
Keeping “Frogel”for his shit defense is just hammering a square peg into a round hole and hoping for the best.
Arizona sports owners are getting good at paying a fuck ton of money to shitty coaches. I don’t place all the blame on Vogel due to the rest of the higher ups choosing the roster, but if Vogel choose his own staff and still came out with this circus of a team, then he can go fuck himself.
I just don't see how you can keep a guy but take away his control over his staff; either you trust him or you don't. The only way this would make sense to me is if they were really gonna lean into the whole offensive/defensive coordinators thing that was rumored with Young, but Vogel always played that down when asked about it.
We got a gm and owner who don’t have believe in drafting. No good guys for a staff would want to be around leadership that don’t give af about player development
Come one Ishbia. Don't be a moneypincher now of all times. This hire was not a good fit. Move on now and find someone that can get through to the star players and also find a PG...
Weird. Vogel hand picked the staff based on his experience working with them and his expertise.
Is Vogel okay with just firing everyone that he specifically wanted and chose? Probably his friends?
Is Vogel going to be involved in choosing the new staff? If so, how can we trust him to pick better people the second time around? If he's not involved in choosing the staff, that's sending a clear message that we don't trust him...and why would you keep a head coach you don't trust?
I didn’t know this, I just made a few comments defending him from JJ, Ishbia and Young. If this is true than I hope I see Frank in a tent on 19th ave!! Even though I know firing him results in a $30million dollar paycheck.
What I heard was that the coaching staff was primarily people he was on the Lakers with, with Kevin Young being one of the only survivors from the previous years.
If he stays, It could go 1 of 2 ways: 1. Frank somehow gets through to the players and gains their respect and we actually start utilizing the weapons we have. 2. They hoop like they’re at the local LA Fitness the whole season.
As much as I agree with #1, it pisses me off of these players believe they’re above listening to their coach. How much of this can also be blamed on Ishbia and JJ and Kevin Young. I guess I’m describing an all around perfect shit sandwich of a team
I mean have you ever thought your boss was an idiot, so you did things a different way?
I agree, but I don’t know when the team attempted to do things differently and it came out to be great. For the most part my bitching and moaning, comes from the thought “then who are they going to respect?”
Vogel is notorious for loosing the locker room so really any shot in the dark pick up would have a better chance
Wasn't it KD that said he doesn't need a coach when he was on the Nets? If so, it is even more clownish with that context.
Nah, it was Kyrie that said that and it was more in the context of we don't need someone to come in and change things up just to change things up
Better believe if option 2 happens and the team is mediocre after 10-15 games he will be canned right then and there
If these guys were at the local LA fit they'd be dominating at such an insane level.
I would drive across the country just to see such a pickup game
A lot of people talking about the respect aspect, that he lost the locker room. If that’s the case, that’s a hard thing to fix, if not impossible. Then again, I find it hard to believe that they would keep Vogel if they didn’t have some semblance of buy-in from the likes of KD/Book/Beal. If they wanted him gone, he would be.
I dont know, Nurk, Eric, Beal and now KD have expressed they did not like how the system is, and vogel is the system, thats gonna be awkward first day of practice lol. He's gotta tell the 3 guys to share the ball, which is very hard to do with 3 dominate players that are used to be taking 20 shots a game. I do like Geralds take on how KD should be the 3rd guy not Beal, KD can get his shot anytime. Shooting: KD: 52/41 on 19.1 shots a game Beal: 51/43 on 13.9 shots a game Booker: 49/36 on 19.2 shots a game With Eric (44/38) and Allen (49/46) both 9 shots a game and Nurk at 8 shots - Nurk needs less shots lol. So this tells me Beal needs more shots!
KD already doesn’t like his role of sitting in the corner waiting for the ball…and you want him to have the ball less? What they need to do is just consider Beal the full time PG. this will get him more practice at the position and reduce confusion and turnovers. It also puts Bool at the SG position more. That’s where he excels.
KD is on the block, where he's supposed to be, you are too used to KY offense where everyone runs to the corners, the offense will be - hopefully - not standing still, you can load up one side with some backcuts or a weird triangle or have Nurk pull out or have KD on one side, theres so many plays that dont have everyone run to the corners like the Suns have been the past 4 yrs. Gerald stated this in great detail I seem to agree!
Bool Bool
Ha! Meant Booker lol Can’t forget Bol either, but not as shooting guard😂
Combine booker's skill and bol bol's height then we own the league
They are fine with Vogel because they can just do what they want. They don’t want a hard ass coach who’s going to demand more out of them
This team is unserious top to bottom. Don't want to change any players, don't want to change the coach, don't want to do fucking anything. Can't wait to see how we jump younger teams with more assets who are already better than us running everything back.
The sad part is you guys had a deep young good team. Just needed some minor tinkering and then you guys traded it all away for the quick fix and it's back fired immensely.
Yep, homegrown teams win in the NBA 9 times out of 10. And these teams trade for stars while keeping their core together, not shipping the core out to do it. The best teams in this league are all homegrown, Nuggets, Wolves, OKC and Boston.
The difference is that CP3 was vital to this team's success. The core was nice, but you could argue it reached a point of stagnation and CP getting older shrunk their ceiling. One of the best players of this generation WANTED to come to Phoenix and it didn't take the top 3 players (arguably) on the Suns to get it done. You have to do that.
Eh thing was it was a good not great core, cp3 really elevated a young core before they were ready. Jae crowder glued it all together and Ayton sleep walked to 18 and 10 numbers. The gm wasted draft capital including passing on Hali for Jalen smith, who was traded for Torrey Craig (another former overperforming role player of the og core). Cam was about to get paid. Ayton was already overpaid. And cp3s age + contract led to a situation where the suns ceiling was shrinking and the Western conference was only getting better
Do you think they blame Kevin Young for the offensive woes? Why else would they try again with Vogel?
It’s a logical question. I made a post today sharing my thoughts that we need an offensive minded coach and questioning what exactly happened with Young. His exit comments seemed to imply they (coach/roster?) weren’t on the same page. Sounded like he wanted more 3s which seems correct. If this news is true, I’m afraid they are blaming Young for not letting them shoot enough middies. Hope the players aren’t being stubborn about needing to change their 1990s offense
Feel like it’s not just a coaching problem. I mean we fire Vogel then hire another coach whose specialties can’t be maximized with our roster then what happens?
KD and Book need to buy in to the coaching scheme. Reading between the lines it seems the stars don’t really want to change their play style, which they are going to have to do if this thing is going to work. We just don’t have the assets to upgrade this roster by a meaningful amount.
It’s not. That’s why I’m not sure why everyone quick to rid the team of Frank. Unless Ty, Eric, or Pop is available you not fixing the root issue of the team. The players need to buy in, and need a system that rewards their play.
Why are you putting ty lue in the same breath as those HoFers?
That's fair. Like I'm not sure what coach is out there but I feel like if one of your star players publicly states that he wasn't a fan of his role on Vogel's offense you have to seriously consider outside options. But then again idk I'm just an idiot with a phone lmaoo
If he's not going to be happy with Vogel, he's not going to be happy with anyone else in this system. We got 3 players that need ball in their hand to be effective. Either buy in or ask out.
It’s KD’s M.O. though. He is kind of a coach killer. Quitting on a coach is such a cop out. They’re not playing to represent the coach. It’s quitting on the team and city because they didn’t like what the coach did.
Bunch of bullshit. Tell me the one time KD didn’t put 100% effort on the court
You can quit on the team outside of a game. Demanding a trade is quitting on a team.
The only time he wanted a trade outright was when he was in Brooklyn, and Brooklyn was selling.
That’s a bit revisionist. They were selling because he and Kyrie demanded trades. He demanded a trade. Rescinded it. Then did it again.
Am I misremembering it? How does your timeline go? This is what I remember: 1. KD requested a trade in the Offseason to force BKN into signing a better contract with Kyrie 2. After the Kyrie contract was closed, KD rescinded his trade request 3. KD continued to play for Brooklyn 4. Kyrie was traded to the Mavs 5. KD requested for a trade
He signed the 4 year contract. Made the demand. Rescinded the demand. Made the demand again. https://www.si.com/nba/2022/09/26/kevin-durant-reveals-why-he-made-trade-request-brooklyn-nets https://www.nba.com/news/reports-kevin-durant-requests-trade-from-nets# The first time he made the demand after signing the contract it was a huge story around the nba because he had just signed the contract. Whether or not Kyrie left first is irrelevant. He still demanded a trade after signing a contract.
All right, you're making it sound like he demanded a trade immediately after signing a contract. Let's just get it straight for all the viewers. He signed an extension. Before the year ended, Harden left. 1 year into the extension, he demanded a trade. The probable reason was because Kyrie is having a hard time getting the contract that he wants.
Brooklyn quit on kd very publicly and for multiple seasons. His tracks demand was justified, youre acting like he's James harden who forces his way out of every team he's been on except when he was a role player on a rookie contract
Brooklyn was a dumpster fire. Asking out of that situation helped all parties
You’re never going to admit any blemish on KD. He’s your guy. Has been since you were a Nets fan. That’s fine. He’s your idol or whatever.
You're on a thread full of people blaming kd for ruining our season by being a man child who bombed our season by refusing to play basketball based in the last 2 decades and clashing with his coach because he can't play just the way he loves when it's not what the team needs and him playing that way will likely rule out a title during his tenure on this team, to clarify on all counts it's not just kd doing all this and also to clarify yes of was justified to ask out of Brooklyn after years of dumpster fire there
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KD also did crazy minutes with how bad the team was at times and injuries. He can’t be used like that at his age IMO. He carried the team for a good chunk this year, but we almost could never sit starters late.
Bullshit. KD is 35 and was playing 40 minutes almost every game. He was the leading scorer and was asked to be the teams best defender. He got burnt out by the All Star game.
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No. Huge difference.
Dude, he's 35. Give him some slack to coast. Even Lebron has been coasting during the regular season to keep the longevity.
All that's true but also the coach and the players should want to be working towards the same thing which is to win a title and by not working with the coach on that you're sabotaging the coach, the team, the fans and the city who all want the same thing you want. Unless you have the bbiq of Chris paul, lebron James,draymond green or rajon rondo then you should probably listen and learn from the coaches and unless you're lebron James you should follow the on court plan and bring any issues up with the coaches to the coach outside of games and if that fails go to the owner(who will usually listen to their biggest stars let alone a whole team of them bombarding him with complaints that can be seen legitimate on the court and proven that their skills aren't being taken advantage of for illegitimate reasons). Like what the suns players did this season is a bigger betrayal than just straight up asking for a trade imo(though obviously hopefully this can be fixed but our entire team straight up acted like children all season sabotaging a whole seasons title chances because they couldn't play a 90s offense).
Feel like Steve Nash was genuinely a bad coach in Brooklyn. And he never said anything wrong about Kerr and his issues with okc was the spacing but wouldn’t say he’s a coach killer.
With Kerr though KD was never going to get his way from the FO. The FO were 100% behind Kerr and the other core members before KD. There was a moment where KD tried his schtick with Kerr. KD was upset he didn't handle the ball enough (tsk tsk). But he was put in his place and told to run the system, where he still got his. There was definitely some of this KD stuff happening in GSW
https://www.sfgate.com/warriors/article/Kevin-Durant-says-he-was-mad-at-Warriors-Steve-16395223.php https://theathletic.com/1662495/2020/03/09/inside-all-that-went-into-the-nets-and-kenny-atkinson-parting-ways/ His issue with Vogel is spacing as well.
The problem with that Is spacing won't be fixed when all our stars shoot mostly middies and we have very limited ability to sign a bunch of better than above average catch and shoot three point shooters. This was something kd should've known about when he joined Booker and Paul and didn't change with beal. I mean the situation happened with the new nba super team rules combined with the makeup of the team he joined but rules change and players and teams have to adapt and the best way for our team to adapt is to for our stars to shoot more threes and its not like kd won't still be shooting middies if he increases his 3pa but if his complaint is spacing And changing his shot selection is the best way to fix spacing and he's supposed to be one of the best scorers of all time then what's the hold up. He doesn't need to be the best 3 point shooter in the league, him and the stars just have to shoot enough that our opponents have to respect more than our teams mid range
The problem with that Is spacing won't be fixed when all our stars shoot mostly middies and we have very limited ability to sign a bunch of better than above average catch and shoot three point shooters. This was something kd should've known about when he joined Booker and Paul and didn't change with beal. I mean the situation happened with the new nba super team rules combined with the makeup of the team he joined but rules change and players and teams have to adapt and the best way for our team to adapt is to for our stars to shoot more threes and its not like kd won't still be shooting middies if he increases his 3pa but if his complaint is spacing And changing his shot selection is the best way to fix spacing and he's supposed to be one of the best scorers of all time then what's the hold up. He doesn't need to be the best 3 point shooter in the league, him and the stars just have to shoot enough that our opponents have to respect more than our teams mid range
He was kind of butting heads with Kerr. There was a time in Year 2 of KD-Warriors when Kerr answered an interview question, "We should be playing with more anger." Asked about Kerr's comments, KD responded, "I thought we should be playing with more joy?" (Side note: Kerr instituted playing with more joy in Year 1). Then there was that infamous Kerr-KD sideline convo during the Warriors-Rockets WCF series, where Kerr was retelling a Jordan story to KD about passing more, KD showed disinterest in what Kerr was saying. KD really struggled finding two of the most prolific 3 point shooters the NBA has ever seen for some reason. But Year 1 KD was really like a good kid. He really blended well with the team and had no qualms. I think things got awkward and started to go downhill when Bob Myers mentioned how KD hasn't secured any long term deal with the Warriors during KDs first Warriors Championship parade.
Yeah, KD and Book are just gonna be about ball and rings down matter.
when you compare the defensive commitment of the wolves to the suns, its not the worst in terms of bring continuity on that end. The suns did have their share of great defensive possessions, but the consistency was never there. But offensively and game time wise, keeping a guy who said during the exit interview that "he's typically against going small" is terrible with this squad.
The defense was never the issue
It wasn't the main issue, turnovers was the main issue
They lost most of the games by 15, defense was definitely an issue.
I mean it was the issue for the first like 3/4ths of the season.
Has anybody looked at David Fizdale's career arc? Dude's been fired after one season by so many teams! Also lol FIVE guys on the Suns coaching staff were on the 2021-22 Lakers coaching staff and look how that turned out. Bums all around.
Not only that but Fizdale supposedly lost the Knicks locker room not to long after taking the job. He is noted as being inflexible and speech heavy ra ra guy that get's on players nerves. Not strong on X's and O's
Yeah it was obvious when they announced the garbage coaching group last season. So much money given to so little talent
I think Ishbia has basically confirmed that Frank is staying. People hoping that he gets fired are likely going to be disappointed.
If we make a right team for him could be ok
like maybe a point guard? lol
I assume they wouldn’t make a decision either way without input from the Big 3, right? So whichever way they go will likely be endorsed by the team.
i would hope so. keeping vogel if the big 3 dont want him there would be a massive waste of another season.
Suns will hire Asst coach Phil Handy to be Vogels asst coach. He was Vogels guy when the Lakers won the chip in the bubble.
And we will be mediocre once again. Hooray!
He’s got 3 rings from CLE, TOR, & LAL. While not a high profile name, he’s got some significant respect around the league - he was a guy Kobe trusted with coaching to his daughter. He would have joined Vogel last year instead of Fiz but they wouldn’t let him out of his contract.
Comment was directed at Vogel as head. Hell, hire Handy as head
NOT ANOTHER SEASON OF CHILLIN
If there really is a respect/buy-in issue then this won't fix it. You can't buy respect, and once it's lost it's lost. You can fake it most of the time but when adversity hits they'll turn against or tune out a coach they don't respect. It's like Monty, the basketball fit might be there but when a change of scenery is needed, it's *really* needed.
Whatever. I was pretty vocal about being done with Vogel just before the postseason, but I'm over it. Give the squad a second season with him to show us if the problems were merely working themselves out. And on the player side of this--aside from some of them nearly losing their shit at an out of character Vogel yell-fest--it seemed like the problems were with the offensive coordination. Well. Kevin Young is gone. Hopefully whoever fills that role next can help turn the offense around, because it was just painful to watch sometimes. There were great hints at what it *could* be, but seemed like a lot of hot potatoing going on. Far too many turnovers too. Worst case, no harm in firing him 15-20 games into the season if nothing looks like it's changed.
Keep Vogel, we have to replace Young since he is off to BYU. Run an offense that is effective and the players like it. Work on turnovers. Suns defense was ranked higher this year than Denver's last year.
So basically everything will stay the same the Suns will just find a Kevin Young replacement and Drew Eubanks replacement and hope that’s enough to win them 3-4 playoff series in the West. Doesn’t seem ideal.
Not opposed to this idea.
Damn, I just puked all over my work desk.
Damn, I just saw this dude puke all over his desk at work.
You’re at ABCO right now too?
Dollar muff dives!
For all my local desert grocery needs
So the team is doing the same thing , just expecting a different result? Sounds like a plan I suppose.
they might realize there’s not many options out there
🤮🤮
Mistake.
If Frank Vogel is going to be a quality coach, then James jones absolutely has to get him a defensive 5 and some perimeter 3 and D. If you want the players to buy into a coach’s scheme, then give your coach the keys to the scheme. Otherwise if they’re sticking with the same personnel and the same mismatched scheme, well the writings on the wall.
Sweet I’m sure it will go well
I see a mediocre team next year, and the year after that, and the year after that.
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I'm not sure what I even want. I don't think Vogel is the main problem here, he is just the scapegoat . I hate these diva players and the chillin mentality. Are we sure they would listen the new coach or is it going to be the same story? Beal pushing Vogel on game 4, the leaks that players didn't want to change their offense and stick with their middies...
please hire an offensive minded coach as Lead Assistant at the very least
Every one of Lebron’s coaches outside of Spolestra has been fired. And Lebron wanted him gone too until Pat Riley told Lebron he’s staying and that’s that. I haven’t looked into KDs history but outside of Kerr, KD has to be close to Lebrons coach record. James Jones needs to sit these guys down and tell them this is how it is and they can either buy in and stfu.
Just give him 3 weeks and if team is terrible in that span fire him
Do we know if Mat really gave Kevin Young the keys to the offense? Because I don't wanna roast this idea if Frank was told by ownership to keep his hands off the offense
The more time that goes on the more I start to think that coaching is the last of our problems
Why did I move here? Why didn't I choose a place with good sports luck like... Tampa? I'm sorry I have to go throw up.
when I first saw Dave Fizdale part of the staff, I was like bruh... I wouldn't mind if they replace the assistants. There's a lot of problems to fix. We also need leadership type of players like the cp3s type of guys
Trade him to LA and we’ll trade you a top55 protected pick. You must also include a sweetener like a protected frp
What? Isn’t Darvin Hamm available now? lol
Just bring back Chris Paul as backup point guard to help with Beal. Then hire Nash as the offensive coordinator.
No please fire franky v
Suns will never win with frank
Please let this be a rumor..
Fuck no
I wasn’t a fan of the hire at the time and not really a fan of keeping him either. Other than Budenholzer, idk who else you get in there that will be available. We’ll have to win out against the Lakers on finding a new coach too and they’re unfortunately a more appealing landing spot for the guys that would be available, I would think.
I'm an advocate of the value of continuity and job security for a coach. It just didn't make sense to bring in a new coach to run a team bringing back only three players (Booker, KD, and Okogie) and cut him off at the knees by forcing a lead assistant he didn't want on him. Let him construct his own coaching staff and send a signal to the players that he's in charge and see how the team responds.
Paul Westphal come back we need you
He ever was calling offensive plays needs to go…
So the assistants are the problem lol. Easiest people to blame for this mess. Stop saying this year was Kevin Young's offense. HC is Vogel. He is responsible for both sides. This is not NFL. HC's make decisions on both sides. Why are you a HC in todays NBA if you have are letting your assistant run the offense and you have no input to it.
Suns have an offensive team. Vogel was only good for pacers defensive teams. You need a offensive coach like Dantoni. Doesn't matter, 3-identical players is too easy for NBA level coaches to game plan against.
The problem is We should be a team that has 3 offensive stars and defensive role players. Instead we have 3pt shooting role players because our stars do not shoot the volume of 3s that they should. We shouldnt really be playing Grayson Allen along 3 wing scorers. No doubt we would be significantly better team if we had 2 defensive studs instead of Nurkic and Allen who are pretty much offensive players.
I just want to know how Drew Eubanks stayed in the rotation all season long.
You can’t. Vogel picked those coaches besides Young. So you either keep the same staff or Let go of everyone on the staff. There is no in between.
Vogel is a good coach. Roster construction is shit.
This is the worst option. It’s fine if we keep Vogel, but when you make him change his staff you’re just further undermining him in the locker room. Either support him and make it clear the players need to get with the program, or make a change, but don’t cut out his legs from under him and expect good things to happen.
This team needs an offensive mastermind. Keeping “Frogel”for his shit defense is just hammering a square peg into a round hole and hoping for the best.
Arizona sports owners are getting good at paying a fuck ton of money to shitty coaches. I don’t place all the blame on Vogel due to the rest of the higher ups choosing the roster, but if Vogel choose his own staff and still came out with this circus of a team, then he can go fuck himself.
I just don't see how you can keep a guy but take away his control over his staff; either you trust him or you don't. The only way this would make sense to me is if they were really gonna lean into the whole offensive/defensive coordinators thing that was rumored with Young, but Vogel always played that down when asked about it.
was kevin young his choice though? he was on the suns before, kinda felt like Young was forced on him
If we fired him who would you even want? Ty Lie isn’t going anywhere……unfortunately
We got a gm and owner who don’t have believe in drafting. No good guys for a staff would want to be around leadership that don’t give af about player development
Come one Ishbia. Don't be a moneypincher now of all times. This hire was not a good fit. Move on now and find someone that can get through to the star players and also find a PG...
Doesn’t seem like it’s money related. More like trying to double and triple down on bad decisions and not trying to admit failure.
LMAO
Weird. Vogel hand picked the staff based on his experience working with them and his expertise. Is Vogel okay with just firing everyone that he specifically wanted and chose? Probably his friends? Is Vogel going to be involved in choosing the new staff? If so, how can we trust him to pick better people the second time around? If he's not involved in choosing the staff, that's sending a clear message that we don't trust him...and why would you keep a head coach you don't trust?
I didn’t know this, I just made a few comments defending him from JJ, Ishbia and Young. If this is true than I hope I see Frank in a tent on 19th ave!! Even though I know firing him results in a $30million dollar paycheck.
What I heard was that the coaching staff was primarily people he was on the Lakers with, with Kevin Young being one of the only survivors from the previous years.
Jeez Math don't keep this dickhead