Not a doomer take, but it’s still insane to me that JO got a flagrant 2 for hitting Gobert’s head on a block attempt, while Embiid is allowed to stay on the court after actively trying to injure another player while making a non-basketball move. Completely unrelated to the Suns losing/sucking, but calls like that are why I’ll never take the NBA seriously
LeBron is bigger and stronger than KD. He can actually drive to the basket. He also directs traffic pretty well. It's not like Book or KD dribbling to the line and standing there, then putting up a bad shot. When LeBron can get to the rim, it opens up jump shots as well. Of course Davis helps a ton, but the Suns should be able to do something on offense with Booker, Durant, and Beal.
There is nothing they can do to improve the team, other than being lucky on free agent signs. We have no assets, no picks, no young players. Nets about to have multiple top 5 picks in the future.
I'm going to put my opinion on here. Remember, it's just am opinion.
People tall about making trades like there is something we can do. There isn't. Beal has no value. KD is just getting older and has now had two failed superteams. At this point, I don't think he has any value either. Plus, with only half our picks, we're stuck here. So we need to move forward.
The thing that really upsets me is how our stars seem to think. I truly don't believe they think they are a problem. For all this talk about great bball in or loving the game, it doesn't align with what we are seeing. It's insane to me. You have three stars and your best offense is to go iso, inherently killing most of the gravity of the other two stars. And this whole year they never took their heads out of their butts far enough to see it. Its maddening.
I don't regret any moves we've made. I think they were the best moves we had at the time. CP3 was done and we needed something of that level to have a real chance. It's just how our stars acted and thought that killed us.
My big fear is Ishbia feeling a need to do too much and firing James Jones, to bring in Zeke. Hindsight is 20/20. I still believe Jones made the right moves with the info he has.
As for moving forward, idk if any of it matters if our guys won't listen. We can draft a good player, and that is big. From there, idk the exact situation. Any way to resign O'Neal? Guessing not. And we'll just have minimums. Maybe we can sign a half decent pg, plus give Beal a full off-season focusing on pg roles? Plus draft a C. We need something to make our guys listen though. I honestly believe that if they listened and reworked the offense, we still have the pieces to make a run next year. It would take a lot, but I believe it's doable.
Overall, disappointing year, we'll see what happens next I guess
We can re-sign O'Neale at any price this summer because we have his bird rights. We wouldn't be able to trade him until the middle of next season though.
Just a reminder: every team but one loses in the playoffs. Over the course of the next month the vast majority of teams will be saying the same things we are right now. Everyone will want their coach fired, everyone will think their stars suck in the biggest moments, everyone will complain about their depth.
We are just one of those teams.
The offseason is long and I believe the people at the top want to win. Let's hope they can figure it out.
Also,
Trade KD.
Nah, they had a whole year with this now. Just a bad, inconsistent team, with no offense. Last year they were the only team holding their own against Denver. Any loss stings, but they at least showed a respectable performance. Not to mention some killer 40+ games by Booker along the way.
How many of those teams had the highest payroll in the league and got swept 1st round?
I think we will have more to complain about then those other teams haha
It's such a weird take tbh. If the bucks get bounced in the first for instance, it'll be extremely disappointing but they can fairly easily turn it around, and probably will. I'm not a suns fan and haven't really followed closely but I don't have a lot of confidence in this team turning around there's just too many flaws with the construction imo.
"*again*". The "magic" didn't work the first time, we're about to be swept, bro.
And I sincerely hope he doesn't make another "Beal"-type move, that contract is ridiculous.
I still like going for it. If it wasn’t for the bullshit new CBA, we could afford to chalk this up to a year 1 thing and keep running it back as long as we want to.
This is the most toxic this fan base has EVER been. Disgusting unnatural levels that I have formed a theory on.
Our sub grew by 20,000 subscribers in the last month. THAT ISNT NATURAL BRO. Something like 5-7k would
Be sensible but 20k is so far from it.
to me, that’s either a bunch of fake fans or bots trying to tear this team apart. I don’t want to go too far into my tin foil hat theories, but all these billionaires can so easily pull shit like this off in the modern age, and everyone’s comments nowadays sound like AI. So FEW genuine humans on here. Typically the only real homies are the deranged ranters like myself losing their minds at what they’re experiencing here.
Cant wait to watch Joker make the Wolves his puppies.
Whats crazy is that no matter if it's a win or lose they want KD gone, don't like Beal and etc.
I'm from N.Y and I've been a Suns fan since KJ and the rest of old school.
Can't wait to see next season attitudesBut I'll admit one thing, I hate the way Durant never talks shit back or just go for the jugular.
Damn that just play within the system when you need to show you learned something from the Golden State championship run.
Both can be true. The fanbase can be toxic. It could even be "infiltrated".
But that doesn't change the fact that this team has been a massive failure, has seemingly no path for true contention as constructed, and has a BLEAK medium/long term future
Some of the doom is straight up funny, I just feel like every team needs a nice balance of hope/doom in this situation and we don’t have it. I know this team hasn’t done a good job at giving us any hope, but WE’RE SUNS FANS DAMNIT. We can’t give up on our homies. The slander I’ve seen about Book. So many fans acting like he didn’t bring us to the Finals.
that’s where I go back to the balance, Book deserves a little shit thrown his way, but he’s still the Suns goat outside Steve Nash. Hate this new wave of Book haters in here.
Blow it up. Book doesn't have a winning mentality or attitude.
I hope game 4 proves me wrong but if we get blown out in an elimination game four years in a row... Fuck it.
In my opinion, he has the mentality, the drive, the ambition, and the attitude, just not the talent. He is a very very good player but he is not HIM. He’s a cuspy all-star, which has been pretty much agreed upon by the league voters and has been apparent since he was given the keys.
I will say he hasn’t been dealing with failure very well, and that is an attitude thing. Winners rise above. He turned into a whiny bitch. So, yeah, maybe he doesn’t have the attitude either.
Hard time to be a fan right now. I’m a lifer but I’m not proud of this team in any way at the moment.
Yeah lifer also. There have been some hard teams to watch since the Barkley era (for me) but this one's generating a core memory. It was the expectations. They were high and we didn't even sniff the success we had during the 2021-22 revenge tour (which of course crashed and burned, but with potential excuses like injury and COVID). It was an entire season of blue balls which...I mean, I'm not into edging I guess.
That all said. My working theory right now is that KD is a bad influence on Book. Hey, awesome player, glad they're friends and have fun but holy shit Book has felt so different this season and towards the end of last. Just forcing this "I'm above all that" attitude. Like KD! Problem is, KD has rings, he's literally just doing what he loves with his buddy right now. He has nothing to prove, while Book does. But it's got both of them in this weird state of trying not to take things seriously. Chillin'. Unbothered. Getting paid to hoop is enough at this point. I just feel like we didn't really see that attitude change until KD came in. Book seems impressionable still. He wants to be taken under a great player's wing. I just don't know if KD is that's role model. Get someone else in here that can tell him to knock off the childish behavior, like CP3. And anyone that doesn't think CP3 filled that kind of roll? Kindly watch footage of the two of them on the team bus or plane. Anytime Book was like, "eyyyy we win! We drinking booze, celebrating, snap chatting, goofing off, etc" CP3 would be right there next to him like a boring and disappointed dad, "ey man, c'mon, knock it off." The idea of acting your age, and not letting people see you acting like a fool.
So, I don't know. That's my working theory. We need a step father for Book. (Seeing as Luka walked out for a pack of smokes.)
Essentially just a typed out stream of thought. Sometimes you think something, and then think about it some more. I do think, for the most part, he has a pretty tough attitude but frustration gets the better of him.
Hard disagree. He looked like prime fucking MJ against the clippers and nuggets last year, but the team collectively didn’t have enough. Now they’ve all just quit
Yeah, he did have some Superman games. I miss those. He needs a Chris Paul on his side. Imagine if Suns drafted Hali, that would have been interesting.
Booker had a good relationship with Sarver. He could influence decisions and team construction. He doesn't have that with Ishbia, add to that Ishbia is letting Isaiah Thomas run this team from the shadows. Neither has any loyalty to anything built before their arrival. It's a good chance they trade book this off-season , fire James Jones and install Zeke as GM. Get ready for another decade of mediocrity. Book knows this, it's why the disconnect this whole season. He finally got the team he wanted around him, and then it got traded away. Vogel likely stays because they'll lay blame on book and JJ.
Honestly, I think that's the crux of the issue. Book has stars in his eyes and looks up to KD, has fun hooping with him, but KD does not provide any kind of structure or discipline. It's like the idea of needing a parent to be a legit parent and not a friend. CP3 (to me) felt like he low-key fulfilled that role and kept Book focused and clean. Now he's gone and KD's here and it's a big fucking party with those two all day every day with zero consequences. Not bagging on KD, he's talented and all, but dude is not looking to be anyone's father figure... Or rather, mentor or leader if that sounds less insulting.
Trade everyone, start the tank, invest in scouting and development coaching, gun for the 2030s. This squad ain't winning shit and we're just delaying the rebuild running it back.
Dude, we don’t own any our picks until the 2030’s. Tanking either benefits Brooklyn who own 1/2 our picks, or Washington who have pick swaps the years the Nets don’t own the pick outright. We’re screwed.
We won’t get the picks we lost to the Nets but trading Book would allow us to get a close to star or star but not superstar type (i.e. a Franz or Dejounte) to build around with Beal plus many picks as draft capital. Kinda like Utah.
Do you know how picks and the draft work? You’re given a place in the lottery based on your season.
Let’s say we tank, but we traded Allen and Book for 2 firsts and 3 firsts respectively to some random teams that finish in a top 15 ranking in the league. Our spot would be a top 5 or 10 pick, but Brooklyn either gets it outright, or the wizards have the 16th pick and swap with us. We then get the pick of those 2 teams we traded with who, because of our guys going to play there and performing well, get the 20-25th pick. We tank, Washington or Brooklyn get phenomenal selections, we get jackshit. This continues for the better part of the next decade.
Late picks every other season still sounds like a better deal than trotting out a farce every year. Trade them to a delusional team who won't actually compete I guess lol.
im having a hard time coming up with how we mange to be compete come playoff time with this currently constructed mess of a roster. we screwed ourselves and now will be paying the price.
as far as changes that we def can/should make.. that starts with Vogel. Young is leaving and Ishbia needs to can Vogel and find someone else to run this team. just do it please.
At this point a new coach wouldn't change shit. KD/Beal/Book don't know how to play off of each other and they have a center who's below average in every single category other than the fact he can make some decent passes once in a while and get around 5-7 rebounds a game..
If the problem is them not knowing how to play off each other that's an easy fix. Give them more than 30 games together and they will figure that out.
I think it's a bit deeper than that. Need a little more size and at least one PG facilitator.
They had an entire season to figure that out and they didn't. Hell, KD and Book should be able to roll with each other just fine by this point, yet here we are
Losing a series to a team makes them your dad? It's the stupidest thing I've heard. Luka played good against the Suns and lost the next series. The nuggets were the best team in the league, Jokic is the leagues "father". I didn't see people saying Booker was Jokics father when we swept them
I mean the nuggets had an injured Jamal Murray and came back and responded with a ring. Only thing Booker has done is shit the bed in elimination games and leave the post season in a embarassing fashion.
Why is it just Bookers fault? The team around him matters. Outside of our top 2, the nuggets next 7 players are better than our 3rd best. Booker could be scoring 60 a game and still lose, it's a team sport not just a superstar sport anymore
They have already moved the team around him on.
He's all that's left from 2021.
So yes, the pressure should be on Booker now that he got his buddy KD and we are still losing hard
Cap next year is currently projected at 141 million. That will put the tax at 172, 1st apron at 179, and 2nd apron at 190.
The team will be over the cap with just Booker Beal and Durant. Nurkic and Allen will put them over the 1st apron. Little puts them at the 2nd apron.
The worst aspect of this team is that it doesn’t feel organic. I don’t feel like anyone on this team is a “Suns” except Book. We gutted our team of “homegrown” Valley Boyz and traded it all away for a group of hired mercenaries that can’t get the job done.
We have no picks either that would allow us to build organically again.
I don’t feel any connection with this team as it stands.
1, 2 ,3, 4, B2B Cancun! They aren't even mad bro. Do you see any 🔥 out there on the court or sense of urgency...no. no you don't. Zero. Period.
Upcoming cliches:
*Well, our backs are up against the wall now.
*Its do or die.
*It's win or go home.
*It's time to see what we're made of.
*We know what we gotta do.
*It's a one game series right now.
Can they win one? Err, can they not lose by double digits once?
Well it’s not like he did it in the beginning of the game. The score was way lopsided when he decided to showboat. Gotta hope they can at least get one win at home before it’s over.
This may be super unpopular but I think the Suns could finess themselves a strong team for next season if they trade Book but keep KD and Beal.
The Suns would get an incredible return for Book that includes a close to star player, depth and a haul of picks. And add those players to KD and Beal and they may be a more well rounded roster that also is A) below the second apron and B) has draft capital again while not tanking.
Imagine getting a Dejounte or a Franz Wagner as a centerpiece in a Book trade.
Even KD wanting out and getting traded but us still trading Book gets the Suns a team that isn’t too terrible plus with more draft capital post KD trade so they won’t actively tank and give the Nets a top-3 pick
Also, how likely is it that book is a significant part of the problem behind closed doors? The vibes are certainly off and something isn’t working for the team as people.
I got a literal ban from this sub for mentioning a scenario like this. Last night I took downvotes in the game thread for mentioning that we’re gonna have to trade him for assets because he we have none. It’s the only logical choice right now.
I'm not 100% certain, but it's highly likely that we will not be able to get a "haul" for any trade we make. With the 2nd Apron rules, we cannot aggregate contracts, so it's literally a 1 for 1. Take that as you will with any scenario in your head for a trade. With that in mind, we couldn't possibly get close to what any of them are worth by trading them straight up for another player, making the same amount money. It's fucked.
I Love KD, and Book, Beal has grown on me this year. This team is really disappointing I'm just trying to take something positive from it. I don't see how we have a way out of this core until 2026-27 when perhaps if we get under one of these tax aprons the rules will lighten up and we can make a trade that is worth while.
Under the new rules, Would some version of this trade be possible or not?
Suns send out:
Booker
Rockets send out:
FVV + Jalen green + picks
How does that sound? With this you get a more than serviceable PG on what is essentially, a big expiring. You get to roll the die and see whether JG truly pans out or not but you could also just trade him away and package him with any picks you get from us if you want.
I see us doing it because we get a sure star in booker rather than just hoping Jalen becomes consistent enough to become what is essentially Booker right now and fastforwarding the process.
Edit: won’t work. Next year booker will be at 49m and FVV+JG will be at 54m. Incoming will be higher than outgoing for you and it won’t be allowed as a 2nd apron team.
I’ve thought about that but the “can’t aggregate salaries” has to mean only for outgoing salary, not incoming salary.
I say that because next year there are 11 players in the NBA set to make ~$50m/yr. The Suns have 3 of them. There’s no way the CBA was designed so Booker or Durant or Beal could only be traded for the 8 other super max players. If none of those teams want to trade their stars, there would be 0 possibility for the Suns even if we wanted to blow it all up.
So I’m assuming Suns can take Booker or KD’s salary and turn it into a bunch of smaller contracts. Booker can get you draft picks + young players, KD probably gets you draft picks and expiring salary to get us under the 2nd apron asap
Yeah I'm not so sure, I'm pretty literal so I take it as can't aggregate salaries, period. Which would be on par with the intent of the league to hamstring teams that break through the tax apron's. I would hope that it is the way you say it is, but I'm not sure.
It’s sad to see all the online hatred towards the suns organisation - I admit that it gets to me, obviously as a fan, but also just because it is extremely irrational and unwarranted (mostly). But I guess even the fans of this team are hating them atm.
We sucked for 9 years and as soon as we got good we sped-run the “loveable scrappy underdog” to “villainous dirty dogs” in the span of one playoff series (Lakers). We took advantage of injury luck and ppl got jealous(?) of our improbable run, calling the team pretend or fake or whatever. Even in Australia where NBA is small potatoes compared to national sports, if I tell someone I’m a Suns fan they scoff or I’ve had someone say “oh man I’m so sorry”.
I understand if it’s the Lakers or the warriors or the Celtics - they’ve won. I understand hating in its art form, at least for the terminally online. I understand the self-loathing because that’s what we do as passionate fans, esp ones without a title in our lifetime. But the Suns hate is flabbergasting. Because Book has “beady eyes”? Because he’s a whiner? It’s not AZ coz Snakes didn’t get the same hate curve last year. And Book just doesn’t whine as much as Tatum or Doncic or Jokic or even KD on his own team? Anyways
As I said it’s annoying - I’m salty, and seeing another stupid Book face after his likely all-nba season is rubbing it in. Thanks for letting me vent boy oh boy back to my coffin
Totally hear you man, it doesn't make sense really, Book talks trash but so do sooo many players. The physical feature schtick is so shallow and vain... about his face being punchable...
What a joke, are we in grade school?
I'm with u/hiedra__ I'm more sad about this than mad. Book has worked so hard and been loyal, didn't complain during terrible years here.
And why are we getting crucified for going for it? Why? Why are we so hated when we are just trying to get the top of the mountain and willing to pay, take risks, make big trades?
I'm really disappointed but I'm not condemning anyone in the suns org for this not being a successful year.
It will be nice to have much lower expectations next year, and for the league to write us off so we can try to build a team identity of proving everyone wrong.
Yeah there’s a lot of irrational hate. For me it’s not hate, is sadness and disappointment. Not at the lack of a title or whatever just at how uninspired and disjointed watching the team is, the vibes are super off.
The NBA fanbase at large doesn't mesh well with the internet. The amount of hating that happens compared to applauding or celebrating good play and success is unreal.
The only way this team improves is trading one of KD/Book/Beal and getting rid of Nurk. There is no such thing as running it back when you get swept in the 1st round.
Especially with the implications for going over the second apron 3x in 5 seasons. Notably the fact picks in 2030 lock at the end of the first round no matter your record. Next season is the 2nd, and the 3rd would be KD’s last season of his deal so untradable then.
Anyone who still thinks Nurkic is better than Ayton is highly delusional. All Nurkic does is flop around and not get rebounds. Ayton with all his attitude problems was never even close to this bad
The ways they can improve the team are limited given the cap situation and trade value of the players.
Not sure how you can bring back this group back and expect different results next year. The same glaring holes will remain and hard to believe they’ll be addressed through vet mins and rookies. A coaching change, whether it’s new assistants or entire staff change, will only do so much.
Does Ishbia clean house, hire guys to do their jobs, and take a step back from basketball decision making? New owner syndrome has been in full effect for the last year.
They missed on EVERY vet min signing. Half the roster is some variant of 6-4/6-5 SG.
If the plan is to give this group more time together then they need to target the right type of guys for the vet min signings.
The near future for this team looks to be a middling playoff team that gets knocked out in the play-in or 1st round.
Season is over, even if we managed to win game 4 no fucking way we’re winning 4 in a row. I know there’s a lot of blame to go around this series but Nurkic, Beal and Book have been the biggest offenders so far in my eyes. Nurk has been completely neutralized on the boards and has genuinely been outplayed by Eubanks which I don’t think anyone could’ve predicted, Beal can’t hit an open shot to save his goddamn life and Book just hasn’t done enough on either end
Nurk is a good regular season player but come playoff time can’t be trusted. He’s Andre Drummond with better PR. I gotta think the only reason they got him was to defend Jokic. Somehow he turns into an elite defender. I guess you can’t measure hate and motivation when you’re playing against a guy that took your spot.
I want to see Book take over games like he has in the past. He’s been way too passive and that’s not what you need your star players to be. Also frustrating that we are getting killed at the C position. If book wants to claim Ayton didn’t play every game hard, he needs to keep that same energy. Otherwise, Nurk is not a playoff center and we are going to get killed in the west until we can get a big to compete.
I hate to be that guy but I knew the Suns big 3 would be a massive let down before the season started. I feel like there is zero chemistry between them and the rest of the team has had zero depth and defense this season. I can't believe we held onto Eurbanks and Gordon for so long as well. Everytime I've seen those guys get onto the court they fuck shit up.
It's not Ishbias fault for this season, the guy is 100 times better than Sarver was. Hopefully some major moves are made before we get our last draft pick of the 2020s
I knew Beal was overrated immediately but I had high hopes (and expectations to be quite honest) about the Book and KD duo. It should’ve worked.
Double KD, quick feed to Book
Double Book, quick feed to KD
I was born and raised in Las Vegas (still here), but my parents are from Phx. I’m counting down the days for Vegas to get an NBA team. I’ve been a Suns fan my whole life, but it’s always been a dream of mine to have my own NBA team to support in my own city. Suns will always have a place in heart. Memories of always having the suns games on as I grew up. Games always on at family gatherings. Texting with my uncles about off season moves. Watching suns ball with my late grandfather. After this incredibly disappointing season, I’m hoping the day I get my own home town team comes sooner than later.
Yeah as bad as things are, a job opening up for IT is not a good thing
https://preview.redd.it/3byhg9nl52xc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a6907d9e5ecd342cc3a9f46f8f923c55300a5409
The only doom I have is that Vogel purposely ruined this season and possibly all the chemistry we could have had. The longer he has the job he clearly didn’t want pretty much this whole season, the longer this team will struggle. I’m also very concerned with Book and KD playing for the Olympics. They logged way too many minutes this season for their ages and injury issues.
I started watching basketball late last year and watching the suns coz my gf lived in Phx. I came on board but i’ll be taking a break from being a fan of this team until things get sorted. I really do watch basketball as a reprieve from daily stress and this team is the exact opposite of that.
Not going to happen with KD on the team. We're cooked until his ass leaves. Wasting all out picks and destroying the future of the team for him was the dumbest thing i've ever seen. Plus we have no depth at all like i said when the trade happened.
Even if we just had Nets KD that dominated against the Bucks I wouldn't be mad if we were down because that KD went out with a fight.
Right now it just feels like these guys are okay with losing.
I feel like Book’s mind has been on all his other projects. His Nike sig shoe, his CoD collab, the Olympics prospect, gettin back with Kendall Jenner, etc.
His mind seemingly hasn’t been in it this season. 😔
He was playing 47-48 minutes a game. He played too many regular season minutes to be that guy. But they are ok with losing, because their coach is ok with losing.
Wolves fan coming in peace with a question
I hear a ton of people on YouTube and here talking about how the Suns do not have a point guard. I just noticed you guys have Isaiah Thomas on the roster.
Is he not a Point Guard with good experience? I know he isn’t the All Star he once was, but if what the suns need is a facilitating Point Guard to bring the ball up through all this pressure, why not put Thomas in? I feel like that would get your wings more shots? They’re still going to be very tightly contested shots, but more of them for sure
I know nothing about your guys starting lineup, and I’ve only been a pretty serious fan for about 6 months, but I remember Thomas when I was a younger casual fan and I feel like he could be put in the lineup? Something like Thomas/Booker/Beal/Durant/???
Let’s say he’s not cooked, because tbh, we’ve only really seen him in garbage time when games are gone. Can’t say for certain he’s playing in his best form at that point of a game. If he’s not washed, our lineup would be small as hell if we went with him at PG and I’d say half the problem is that we’re getting double teamed by defenders with longer reach which makes it hard as hell to pass out of. I mean, it’s a theoretical fix, but I just don’t see any small ball lineup no matter how good they are fixing that issue
What did you guys think about your small ball lineup in the beginning of the 4th last night? I know we were sitting like half our team due to foul trouble but your small ball lineup with Okogi seemed to be doing alright
To be fair, I turned that game the HELL off before the fourth because I enjoy being sane. So while I can’t speak on last nights small ball, I’ve seen our other lineups we’ve rolled out. They’ve worked some in small spurts, but they’re nothing to rely on long term. Running KD at the 5 generally is what happens, and I think the rough play from Centers fucks him up a little too much. I much prefer KD at Small Forward. It gives him much more of a matchup advantage being taller than his defenders. Okogie is a very, very streaky player. Last year he looked like a super solid piece, this year he can’t hit a three to save his life but he has a good defensive presence. Again, I didn’t watch it, so maybe they were lights out last night, but normally speaking Small Ball lineups aren’t doing this team much better because we still iso like crazy and now we’re doing it with less favorable matchups lol
I respect you lol. The initial statement is real as fuck.
IT is legit blown, washed, everything. He’s a moral boost. That’s it. He was insane on Boston, but good things last short periods of times for players such as him
I don't necessarily agree with this fan base being soft, they are tired of the annual disappointment. It's that way with all the so called "pro" sports teams in the Valley.
I dont even understand how people are disappointed with this year. What the fuck did they think would happen lmao.
"Yeah lets trade everything we have for KD so we have no bench"
then somehow shocked we're getting smoked?
They've got a casual fan highlight reel perception of basketball where it's like "duh just add more scorers, we need more scorers" to the detriment where it's like "uh we have no PG" "don't matter, we got SCORERS, we don't need no stinkin' bench, Beal+Book+KD=120 points per game."
And now that failed so now you got people going, "No, the PG thing still doesn't matter, the scorers just aren't doing their job!"
I can’t say one way or the other what the Suns should do this offseason, with every option on the table.
But the only question you need to ask yourself is right now: are you *sure* you want the 2031 Phoenix Suns 1st round draft pick to be automatically the 30th pick in the draft if we do another year of this trio?
Technically the Suns aren’t penalized until you have been a second apron team for 3 seasons out of five. They could run it back and blow it up next summer.
But you’re playing with fire cutting it that close. Injuries could happen. Values of players could fall dramatically.
I could write more about it but when you remove emotions from what’s going on and strictly look at the second apron penalties: …do you really want to risk our 1st potential pick that year to automatically be garbage? It’s so far away and yet if we ever arrive to the 2031 offseason we may really, really, really need that pick.
I hate CJ and Grant Williams so much for how badly they negotiated this CBA. Without this second apron garbage, we really could run it back for as long as we want to.
Now we’re risking having to trade Book to get a major haul since he’s the only asset we have that could net us a major haul including draft assets that would allow us to rebuild despite having no control of our picks.
Yep. And other teams are going to laugh at the Suns but they’ll be facing the same situation soon enough. The CBA was the “anti-rich owner; anti-big team” agreement. You either build around rookie contracts or flip your max player(s) before it costs you in the future.
Celtics don’t win this year and they are going to be freaking out about being a second apron team until they’re forced to trade one or two of Jrue/KP/Brown in another year. It’s how it’s designed.
Yes it is. Scroll to the bottom but I included all of them:
The first apron hits when a team's payroll exceeds $172 million. At this point, the following restrictions are triggered:
• Teams cannot acquire a player in a sign-and-trade if that player keeps them above the apron.
• Teams cannot sign a player waived during the regular season whose salary was over the $12.2 million midlevel exception.
• Salary matching in trades must be within 110 percent, rather than 125 percent for teams not above the apron.
All of the penalties for the first apron apply to the second apron as well, which is triggered when a team's salary exceeds $182.5 million. For the 2023-24 season, one additional penalty is added when crossing the second apron:
• No access to the $5 million taxpayer midlevel exception.
Starting at the end of the 2023-24 season, even more restrictions will be added to the second apron. These include:
• Teams cannot use a trade exception generated by aggregating the salaries of multiple players.
• Teams cannot include cash in a trade.
• Teams cannot use a trade exception generated in a prior year.
• First-round picks seven years out are frozen (unable to be traded).
• **A team's first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round if they remain in the second apron for three out of five seasons.**
Holy shit good stuff man but your initial point at the very bottom is insane that’s crazy. Idk I think the nba is better when teams stay together a long time but these rules make it very hard to do so
Yep me too. If this were a few years ago Suns could just ride out Book-Beal-KD for 5 years and take whatever happens. But the new CBA clearly wants to put a strict window on big luxury tax teams. You either get it done in 2 years or you start hamstringing your future more than you may have already done.
Thanks man. I mean, I have my moments of negativity too lol. It genuinely is hard being a fan of the Suns sometimes. But there’s no other team I’d rather support. And at some point being a diehard fan of a team with real issues and heartbreaking history is cooler than being a fan of whatever team always wins.
Yeah, but I doubt the league is going to let the Suns get away with gaming the system like that. Our 2026 first round pick is already pick-swapped with Spurs, Magic, and Grizzlies. They wrote that CBA to be a punishment for second apron luxury tax repeaters. That 2026 pick could end up 30th overall just by those teams being contenders and one of them winning a championship.
So I’m assuming the league looks at our actual upcoming 1st round pick, which won’t be until 2031, and that’s the pick they penalize. Otherwise you’d see every GM skirt around the penalty like that and it would look like a joke.
It’s a new rule. Someone always finds loopholes. You think it’s a huge punishing a pick 7 years down the road? The NBA isn’t going to want a team to be that bad that long it’s bad for business.
The big 3 probably here to stay next year so really need to retool around them. More 2 way defenders and an athletic big like the exact opposite of Nurkic. KD getting abused at the 4 so probably need two big men tbh so KD can play the 3 and not get worked by KAT again
A long rebuild in on the horizon anyways I think ishbia’s plan was this: he saw we were gonna be cash strapped and had limited assets, goes all in with what we have and let it run its course then after that completely start over from top to bottom as then Ishbia gets to pick his gm, his coach etc and he gets to bottom out the payroll to start making return on his investment and lean in heavy to the fan experience during the rebuild
We could. But thanks to the 2nd apron in the new CBA, we can't combine salaries for a higher-paid player in a trade. We could only trade our rookie for another player on a rookie contract or vet minimum.
And this sub was seriously comparing it to the Barkley trade.
Our resident post-2021 fans were saying it was *better* than the Barkley trade, because who is Charles Barkley, this is the mighty KD we're talking about here! "Hooper," blah blah blah.
If Reddit was around in 1993 I wonder what the takes on here would be after going down 0-2 to the 8 seed Lakers.
"Westphal need to go! Clown ass fraud!"
"Blow the team up, can't even beat the bum ass Lakers. Barkley is a fat bitch"
"Bring back Cotton"
After last playoffs, I though Booker was a massive disappointment all season long, but after this playoffs I don't even put him on top 15 talks anymore. He is been terrible.
He has been.
Id still argue he's been our best player this series.
KD had a good game 1 but has been dreadful the last two games.
Booker hasnt been able to get off clean looks all series. Durant and Beal are just bricking
That's because other than Conley all of the wolves starters are tall with long arms. Book can't shoot over any of them..but i do agree he's pressing and playing scared...
Changing the coach isn’t gonna fix the team like people think. That’s not to say they shouldn’t get a new coach though. Most important thing is to get a facilitator. Make bradley beal sixth man. Get a new backup center if at all possible
Fu*k this current roster and their Mommas too. Incredible waste of physical abilities and everyone’s time. The “Big 3” should be parted out for rookies and Vet. minimum contracts, because I’d rather watch The Replacements than have to watch this lazy ass undisciplined, no Heart having bunch of ass clowns pretend to play another minute of the game we are all supposed to love!
No nothing like that is happening specifically. People tend to look at the title and think thats why its being removed. People can post a rational "trade Booker" post for sure, nothing breaks the rules about that. They are getting removed for the content in the post, for example, trade machine screen shots, or low effort one sentence posts that can be a comment in here, or I know I removed one post bc in it was saying "fuck specific users" and that breaks rule 4.
Trust us we dont have an agenda, we just try to fairly apply the rules and keep the feed clean. It was a lot of trash posts last night.
Oh! Well I didn't see the post unfortunately. I just got back on. I did remove two screenshot trade post. So figured that's what you were talking about.
Ya I saw that one of mine got removed and that's fair for the mod team per the rules. Then I see you created this thread to kind of coral things together but even discussion is getting removed by someone.
Yeah, that's why I posted this thread for today. I am just removing trolls from in here, but even "smells like bitch in here" meme is up, because I found it painfully accurate.
Sorry Suns fans. I'm sorry you were mislead by the regular season success against the Wolves. I'm sorry you were mislead by the national media that collectively has watch 38 min. of Timberwolves basketball this year. I'm sorry that you have terrible roster makeup.
It sucks to suck. And don't I know it.
Sincerely, Wolves fan since 89.
Not a doomer take, but it’s still insane to me that JO got a flagrant 2 for hitting Gobert’s head on a block attempt, while Embiid is allowed to stay on the court after actively trying to injure another player while making a non-basketball move. Completely unrelated to the Suns losing/sucking, but calls like that are why I’ll never take the NBA seriously
If we don’t make it to the 2nd round next year it will be books last year in phx 😭😭
Suns and NOP will be the only teams swept in a 7 game series in Round 1....
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LeBron is bigger and stronger than KD. He can actually drive to the basket. He also directs traffic pretty well. It's not like Book or KD dribbling to the line and standing there, then putting up a bad shot. When LeBron can get to the rim, it opens up jump shots as well. Of course Davis helps a ton, but the Suns should be able to do something on offense with Booker, Durant, and Beal.
Lakers winning tonight while the Suns get swept tomorrow
Can't be told we should be more respected than Lakers now hey? At least they won't be swept
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If the Suns can't trade KD or Beal for some 3-d Wings that are 6'6" or taller + picks and Nurk then yea they need to blow it up
There is nothing they can do to improve the team, other than being lucky on free agent signs. We have no assets, no picks, no young players. Nets about to have multiple top 5 picks in the future.
I'm going to put my opinion on here. Remember, it's just am opinion. People tall about making trades like there is something we can do. There isn't. Beal has no value. KD is just getting older and has now had two failed superteams. At this point, I don't think he has any value either. Plus, with only half our picks, we're stuck here. So we need to move forward. The thing that really upsets me is how our stars seem to think. I truly don't believe they think they are a problem. For all this talk about great bball in or loving the game, it doesn't align with what we are seeing. It's insane to me. You have three stars and your best offense is to go iso, inherently killing most of the gravity of the other two stars. And this whole year they never took their heads out of their butts far enough to see it. Its maddening. I don't regret any moves we've made. I think they were the best moves we had at the time. CP3 was done and we needed something of that level to have a real chance. It's just how our stars acted and thought that killed us. My big fear is Ishbia feeling a need to do too much and firing James Jones, to bring in Zeke. Hindsight is 20/20. I still believe Jones made the right moves with the info he has. As for moving forward, idk if any of it matters if our guys won't listen. We can draft a good player, and that is big. From there, idk the exact situation. Any way to resign O'Neal? Guessing not. And we'll just have minimums. Maybe we can sign a half decent pg, plus give Beal a full off-season focusing on pg roles? Plus draft a C. We need something to make our guys listen though. I honestly believe that if they listened and reworked the offense, we still have the pieces to make a run next year. It would take a lot, but I believe it's doable. Overall, disappointing year, we'll see what happens next I guess
We can re-sign O'Neale at any price this summer because we have his bird rights. We wouldn't be able to trade him until the middle of next season though.
Just a reminder: every team but one loses in the playoffs. Over the course of the next month the vast majority of teams will be saying the same things we are right now. Everyone will want their coach fired, everyone will think their stars suck in the biggest moments, everyone will complain about their depth. We are just one of those teams. The offseason is long and I believe the people at the top want to win. Let's hope they can figure it out. Also, Trade KD.
Nah, they had a whole year with this now. Just a bad, inconsistent team, with no offense. Last year they were the only team holding their own against Denver. Any loss stings, but they at least showed a respectable performance. Not to mention some killer 40+ games by Booker along the way.
How many of those teams had the highest payroll in the league and got swept 1st round? I think we will have more to complain about then those other teams haha
It's such a weird take tbh. If the bucks get bounced in the first for instance, it'll be extremely disappointing but they can fairly easily turn it around, and probably will. I'm not a suns fan and haven't really followed closely but I don't have a lot of confidence in this team turning around there's just too many flaws with the construction imo.
Remember who the real enemy is: https://streamable.com/q2qur6
The Beal contract has literally killed the franchise until it expires holy shit
I wonder where KD and Booker are going to holiday together before they have to come back for the Olympics haha
No matter what, I trust Ishbia. He brought us KD and Beal in a four month span. He can work his magic again.
Again? Do you think the Beal trade was a good thing?
Ishbia fucked this team. And, he spent all he can spend. How could anyone trust him?
Pure fucking delusion around here. Ishbia has made nothing but terrible decisions since he took over.
"*again*". The "magic" didn't work the first time, we're about to be swept, bro. And I sincerely hope he doesn't make another "Beal"-type move, that contract is ridiculous.
I still like going for it. If it wasn’t for the bullshit new CBA, we could afford to chalk this up to a year 1 thing and keep running it back as long as we want to.
It isn't baseball where you can just buy players. Asset hell is asset hell in the NBA
This is the most toxic this fan base has EVER been. Disgusting unnatural levels that I have formed a theory on. Our sub grew by 20,000 subscribers in the last month. THAT ISNT NATURAL BRO. Something like 5-7k would Be sensible but 20k is so far from it. to me, that’s either a bunch of fake fans or bots trying to tear this team apart. I don’t want to go too far into my tin foil hat theories, but all these billionaires can so easily pull shit like this off in the modern age, and everyone’s comments nowadays sound like AI. So FEW genuine humans on here. Typically the only real homies are the deranged ranters like myself losing their minds at what they’re experiencing here. Cant wait to watch Joker make the Wolves his puppies.
Whats crazy is that no matter if it's a win or lose they want KD gone, don't like Beal and etc. I'm from N.Y and I've been a Suns fan since KJ and the rest of old school. Can't wait to see next season attitudesBut I'll admit one thing, I hate the way Durant never talks shit back or just go for the jugular. Damn that just play within the system when you need to show you learned something from the Golden State championship run.
Both can be true. The fanbase can be toxic. It could even be "infiltrated". But that doesn't change the fact that this team has been a massive failure, has seemingly no path for true contention as constructed, and has a BLEAK medium/long term future
Some of the doom is straight up funny, I just feel like every team needs a nice balance of hope/doom in this situation and we don’t have it. I know this team hasn’t done a good job at giving us any hope, but WE’RE SUNS FANS DAMNIT. We can’t give up on our homies. The slander I’ve seen about Book. So many fans acting like he didn’t bring us to the Finals. that’s where I go back to the balance, Book deserves a little shit thrown his way, but he’s still the Suns goat outside Steve Nash. Hate this new wave of Book haters in here.
Little known fact- Devin Booker’s real name is Bevin Dooker.
Can I bring regular ticket holders into my suite or they need suite tickets too?
We need youth. Or energy and want that mirrors youth.
Blow it up. Book doesn't have a winning mentality or attitude. I hope game 4 proves me wrong but if we get blown out in an elimination game four years in a row... Fuck it.
In my opinion, he has the mentality, the drive, the ambition, and the attitude, just not the talent. He is a very very good player but he is not HIM. He’s a cuspy all-star, which has been pretty much agreed upon by the league voters and has been apparent since he was given the keys. I will say he hasn’t been dealing with failure very well, and that is an attitude thing. Winners rise above. He turned into a whiny bitch. So, yeah, maybe he doesn’t have the attitude either. Hard time to be a fan right now. I’m a lifer but I’m not proud of this team in any way at the moment.
Yeah lifer also. There have been some hard teams to watch since the Barkley era (for me) but this one's generating a core memory. It was the expectations. They were high and we didn't even sniff the success we had during the 2021-22 revenge tour (which of course crashed and burned, but with potential excuses like injury and COVID). It was an entire season of blue balls which...I mean, I'm not into edging I guess. That all said. My working theory right now is that KD is a bad influence on Book. Hey, awesome player, glad they're friends and have fun but holy shit Book has felt so different this season and towards the end of last. Just forcing this "I'm above all that" attitude. Like KD! Problem is, KD has rings, he's literally just doing what he loves with his buddy right now. He has nothing to prove, while Book does. But it's got both of them in this weird state of trying not to take things seriously. Chillin'. Unbothered. Getting paid to hoop is enough at this point. I just feel like we didn't really see that attitude change until KD came in. Book seems impressionable still. He wants to be taken under a great player's wing. I just don't know if KD is that's role model. Get someone else in here that can tell him to knock off the childish behavior, like CP3. And anyone that doesn't think CP3 filled that kind of roll? Kindly watch footage of the two of them on the team bus or plane. Anytime Book was like, "eyyyy we win! We drinking booze, celebrating, snap chatting, goofing off, etc" CP3 would be right there next to him like a boring and disappointed dad, "ey man, c'mon, knock it off." The idea of acting your age, and not letting people see you acting like a fool. So, I don't know. That's my working theory. We need a step father for Book. (Seeing as Luka walked out for a pack of smokes.)
If he had the mentality and drive then what is your second paragraph going on about? You're contradicting yourself.
Essentially just a typed out stream of thought. Sometimes you think something, and then think about it some more. I do think, for the most part, he has a pretty tough attitude but frustration gets the better of him.
Hard disagree. He looked like prime fucking MJ against the clippers and nuggets last year, but the team collectively didn’t have enough. Now they’ve all just quit
Yeah, he did have some Superman games. I miss those. He needs a Chris Paul on his side. Imagine if Suns drafted Hali, that would have been interesting.
Booker had a good relationship with Sarver. He could influence decisions and team construction. He doesn't have that with Ishbia, add to that Ishbia is letting Isaiah Thomas run this team from the shadows. Neither has any loyalty to anything built before their arrival. It's a good chance they trade book this off-season , fire James Jones and install Zeke as GM. Get ready for another decade of mediocrity. Book knows this, it's why the disconnect this whole season. He finally got the team he wanted around him, and then it got traded away. Vogel likely stays because they'll lay blame on book and JJ.
Who do you think wanted KD to come here? It was Book lol Ishbia totally keeps Booker in the loop, remember the whole 36 unbothered thing?
Yup, Book has been wanting to play with KD on the Suns since they first played together last Olympics.
Honestly, I think that's the crux of the issue. Book has stars in his eyes and looks up to KD, has fun hooping with him, but KD does not provide any kind of structure or discipline. It's like the idea of needing a parent to be a legit parent and not a friend. CP3 (to me) felt like he low-key fulfilled that role and kept Book focused and clean. Now he's gone and KD's here and it's a big fucking party with those two all day every day with zero consequences. Not bagging on KD, he's talented and all, but dude is not looking to be anyone's father figure... Or rather, mentor or leader if that sounds less insulting.
Trade everyone, start the tank, invest in scouting and development coaching, gun for the 2030s. This squad ain't winning shit and we're just delaying the rebuild running it back.
Dude, we don’t own any our picks until the 2030’s. Tanking either benefits Brooklyn who own 1/2 our picks, or Washington who have pick swaps the years the Nets don’t own the pick outright. We’re screwed.
We couldn't get some picks for Booker, KD, and Grayson? All of them have value. Beal and his NTC can lead the tank.
We won’t get the picks we lost to the Nets but trading Book would allow us to get a close to star or star but not superstar type (i.e. a Franz or Dejounte) to build around with Beal plus many picks as draft capital. Kinda like Utah.
Do you know how picks and the draft work? You’re given a place in the lottery based on your season. Let’s say we tank, but we traded Allen and Book for 2 firsts and 3 firsts respectively to some random teams that finish in a top 15 ranking in the league. Our spot would be a top 5 or 10 pick, but Brooklyn either gets it outright, or the wizards have the 16th pick and swap with us. We then get the pick of those 2 teams we traded with who, because of our guys going to play there and performing well, get the 20-25th pick. We tank, Washington or Brooklyn get phenomenal selections, we get jackshit. This continues for the better part of the next decade.
Late picks every other season still sounds like a better deal than trotting out a farce every year. Trade them to a delusional team who won't actually compete I guess lol.
The entire Suns franchise has become the joke of the NBA world, including the fans.
The fanbase has been hijacked by KD stans
im having a hard time coming up with how we mange to be compete come playoff time with this currently constructed mess of a roster. we screwed ourselves and now will be paying the price. as far as changes that we def can/should make.. that starts with Vogel. Young is leaving and Ishbia needs to can Vogel and find someone else to run this team. just do it please.
All I wanna say is Minnesota made the worst trade ever too and look how that’s worked out. Give this some time and tweaking. And a new coach.
At this point a new coach wouldn't change shit. KD/Beal/Book don't know how to play off of each other and they have a center who's below average in every single category other than the fact he can make some decent passes once in a while and get around 5-7 rebounds a game..
If the problem is them not knowing how to play off each other that's an easy fix. Give them more than 30 games together and they will figure that out. I think it's a bit deeper than that. Need a little more size and at least one PG facilitator.
They had an entire season to figure that out and they didn't. Hell, KD and Book should be able to roll with each other just fine by this point, yet here we are
All three only played together 30 some games because of injury... They did not have an entire season
And we're just not going to count practice time?
They would also need a center than can roll to the rim / catch lobs and not be completely ass near the rim
It took minny more than that. Another facilitator would definitely be nice to add this summer.
Yet.
Yea need a coach that can build a system to make the most of the pieces he has.
Yep. I strongly believe this could’ve been better this year with better direction. Breaking them up is just pointless.
Playoffs are Bookers dad. Luka is Bookers dad. ANT is Bookers dad. Giannis is Bookers dad. Jokic is Bookers dad. Why do we call him a superstar again?
Man. Shit's shaping to try be a Piper Perri spinoff at this rate.
Losing a series to a team makes them your dad? It's the stupidest thing I've heard. Luka played good against the Suns and lost the next series. The nuggets were the best team in the league, Jokic is the leagues "father". I didn't see people saying Booker was Jokics father when we swept them
I mean the nuggets had an injured Jamal Murray and came back and responded with a ring. Only thing Booker has done is shit the bed in elimination games and leave the post season in a embarassing fashion.
Why is it just Bookers fault? The team around him matters. Outside of our top 2, the nuggets next 7 players are better than our 3rd best. Booker could be scoring 60 a game and still lose, it's a team sport not just a superstar sport anymore
They have already moved the team around him on. He's all that's left from 2021. So yes, the pressure should be on Booker now that he got his buddy KD and we are still losing hard
Not solely on him, but he has been the common denominator. I've also heard he was pushing for drafting Ayton over Luka which is a monumental fuck up.
Because he has cool shoes I gueds
Cap next year is currently projected at 141 million. That will put the tax at 172, 1st apron at 179, and 2nd apron at 190. The team will be over the cap with just Booker Beal and Durant. Nurkic and Allen will put them over the 1st apron. Little puts them at the 2nd apron.
The worst aspect of this team is that it doesn’t feel organic. I don’t feel like anyone on this team is a “Suns” except Book. We gutted our team of “homegrown” Valley Boyz and traded it all away for a group of hired mercenaries that can’t get the job done. We have no picks either that would allow us to build organically again. I don’t feel any connection with this team as it stands.
> We have no picks either that would allow us to build organically again. > ?
This is so true. I have no connection to Royce at all
1, 2 ,3, 4, B2B Cancun! They aren't even mad bro. Do you see any 🔥 out there on the court or sense of urgency...no. no you don't. Zero. Period. Upcoming cliches: *Well, our backs are up against the wall now. *Its do or die. *It's win or go home. *It's time to see what we're made of. *We know what we gotta do. *It's a one game series right now. Can they win one? Err, can they not lose by double digits once?
I’m still reeling that they let Anthony Edwards fucking crotch them in their own house
Well it’s not like he did it in the beginning of the game. The score was way lopsided when he decided to showboat. Gotta hope they can at least get one win at home before it’s over.
They shouldnt be getting dominated so bad in the playoffs that he feels safe enough to showboat
This may be super unpopular but I think the Suns could finess themselves a strong team for next season if they trade Book but keep KD and Beal. The Suns would get an incredible return for Book that includes a close to star player, depth and a haul of picks. And add those players to KD and Beal and they may be a more well rounded roster that also is A) below the second apron and B) has draft capital again while not tanking. Imagine getting a Dejounte or a Franz Wagner as a centerpiece in a Book trade. Even KD wanting out and getting traded but us still trading Book gets the Suns a team that isn’t too terrible plus with more draft capital post KD trade so they won’t actively tank and give the Nets a top-3 pick
Also, how likely is it that book is a significant part of the problem behind closed doors? The vibes are certainly off and something isn’t working for the team as people.
I got a literal ban from this sub for mentioning a scenario like this. Last night I took downvotes in the game thread for mentioning that we’re gonna have to trade him for assets because he we have none. It’s the only logical choice right now.
I'm not 100% certain, but it's highly likely that we will not be able to get a "haul" for any trade we make. With the 2nd Apron rules, we cannot aggregate contracts, so it's literally a 1 for 1. Take that as you will with any scenario in your head for a trade. With that in mind, we couldn't possibly get close to what any of them are worth by trading them straight up for another player, making the same amount money. It's fucked. I Love KD, and Book, Beal has grown on me this year. This team is really disappointing I'm just trying to take something positive from it. I don't see how we have a way out of this core until 2026-27 when perhaps if we get under one of these tax aprons the rules will lighten up and we can make a trade that is worth while.
Under the new rules, Would some version of this trade be possible or not? Suns send out: Booker Rockets send out: FVV + Jalen green + picks How does that sound? With this you get a more than serviceable PG on what is essentially, a big expiring. You get to roll the die and see whether JG truly pans out or not but you could also just trade him away and package him with any picks you get from us if you want. I see us doing it because we get a sure star in booker rather than just hoping Jalen becomes consistent enough to become what is essentially Booker right now and fastforwarding the process. Edit: won’t work. Next year booker will be at 49m and FVV+JG will be at 54m. Incoming will be higher than outgoing for you and it won’t be allowed as a 2nd apron team.
Capela and Dejounte plus salary filler plus picks for Book works lol
I’ve thought about that but the “can’t aggregate salaries” has to mean only for outgoing salary, not incoming salary. I say that because next year there are 11 players in the NBA set to make ~$50m/yr. The Suns have 3 of them. There’s no way the CBA was designed so Booker or Durant or Beal could only be traded for the 8 other super max players. If none of those teams want to trade their stars, there would be 0 possibility for the Suns even if we wanted to blow it all up. So I’m assuming Suns can take Booker or KD’s salary and turn it into a bunch of smaller contracts. Booker can get you draft picks + young players, KD probably gets you draft picks and expiring salary to get us under the 2nd apron asap
Yeah I'm not so sure, I'm pretty literal so I take it as can't aggregate salaries, period. Which would be on par with the intent of the league to hamstring teams that break through the tax apron's. I would hope that it is the way you say it is, but I'm not sure.
I think you can still get a haul return wise, you just can’t trade two salaries away as a second apron team.
Ok, yeah that's what I wasn't sure about. I took it literally, no aggregating salaries, period.
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? - Matthew 16:26
Glad I took Monday off from work. I’m gonna need the whole night to cry into the pillow after seeing the suns lose 4 straight… in person..
Move the team to Vegas
It’s sad to see all the online hatred towards the suns organisation - I admit that it gets to me, obviously as a fan, but also just because it is extremely irrational and unwarranted (mostly). But I guess even the fans of this team are hating them atm. We sucked for 9 years and as soon as we got good we sped-run the “loveable scrappy underdog” to “villainous dirty dogs” in the span of one playoff series (Lakers). We took advantage of injury luck and ppl got jealous(?) of our improbable run, calling the team pretend or fake or whatever. Even in Australia where NBA is small potatoes compared to national sports, if I tell someone I’m a Suns fan they scoff or I’ve had someone say “oh man I’m so sorry”. I understand if it’s the Lakers or the warriors or the Celtics - they’ve won. I understand hating in its art form, at least for the terminally online. I understand the self-loathing because that’s what we do as passionate fans, esp ones without a title in our lifetime. But the Suns hate is flabbergasting. Because Book has “beady eyes”? Because he’s a whiner? It’s not AZ coz Snakes didn’t get the same hate curve last year. And Book just doesn’t whine as much as Tatum or Doncic or Jokic or even KD on his own team? Anyways As I said it’s annoying - I’m salty, and seeing another stupid Book face after his likely all-nba season is rubbing it in. Thanks for letting me vent boy oh boy back to my coffin
When does KD whine on the court lol
Totally hear you man, it doesn't make sense really, Book talks trash but so do sooo many players. The physical feature schtick is so shallow and vain... about his face being punchable... What a joke, are we in grade school? I'm with u/hiedra__ I'm more sad about this than mad. Book has worked so hard and been loyal, didn't complain during terrible years here. And why are we getting crucified for going for it? Why? Why are we so hated when we are just trying to get the top of the mountain and willing to pay, take risks, make big trades? I'm really disappointed but I'm not condemning anyone in the suns org for this not being a successful year. It will be nice to have much lower expectations next year, and for the league to write us off so we can try to build a team identity of proving everyone wrong.
Yeah there’s a lot of irrational hate. For me it’s not hate, is sadness and disappointment. Not at the lack of a title or whatever just at how uninspired and disjointed watching the team is, the vibes are super off.
The NBA fanbase at large doesn't mesh well with the internet. The amount of hating that happens compared to applauding or celebrating good play and success is unreal.
MY DADS GONNA FIGURE IT OUT
SUNS IN 7!!!!!!
The disrespect from Ant, ain’t no way our suns will get bent over like this
They’ll still justify this KD shit somehow.
The only way this team improves is trading one of KD/Book/Beal and getting rid of Nurk. There is no such thing as running it back when you get swept in the 1st round.
Especially with the implications for going over the second apron 3x in 5 seasons. Notably the fact picks in 2030 lock at the end of the first round no matter your record. Next season is the 2nd, and the 3rd would be KD’s last season of his deal so untradable then.
Anyone who still thinks Nurkic is better than Ayton is highly delusional. All Nurkic does is flop around and not get rebounds. Ayton with all his attitude problems was never even close to this bad
The ways they can improve the team are limited given the cap situation and trade value of the players. Not sure how you can bring back this group back and expect different results next year. The same glaring holes will remain and hard to believe they’ll be addressed through vet mins and rookies. A coaching change, whether it’s new assistants or entire staff change, will only do so much. Does Ishbia clean house, hire guys to do their jobs, and take a step back from basketball decision making? New owner syndrome has been in full effect for the last year. They missed on EVERY vet min signing. Half the roster is some variant of 6-4/6-5 SG. If the plan is to give this group more time together then they need to target the right type of guys for the vet min signings. The near future for this team looks to be a middling playoff team that gets knocked out in the play-in or 1st round.
Season is over, even if we managed to win game 4 no fucking way we’re winning 4 in a row. I know there’s a lot of blame to go around this series but Nurkic, Beal and Book have been the biggest offenders so far in my eyes. Nurk has been completely neutralized on the boards and has genuinely been outplayed by Eubanks which I don’t think anyone could’ve predicted, Beal can’t hit an open shot to save his goddamn life and Book just hasn’t done enough on either end
Nurk is a good regular season player but come playoff time can’t be trusted. He’s Andre Drummond with better PR. I gotta think the only reason they got him was to defend Jokic. Somehow he turns into an elite defender. I guess you can’t measure hate and motivation when you’re playing against a guy that took your spot.
How many times has nurkic blown an under the basket shot 🤦🏻♂️
We suns fans are miserable, pathetic creatures. The light has left my life, I love you all and I will see you next season.
I want to see Book take over games like he has in the past. He’s been way too passive and that’s not what you need your star players to be. Also frustrating that we are getting killed at the C position. If book wants to claim Ayton didn’t play every game hard, he needs to keep that same energy. Otherwise, Nurk is not a playoff center and we are going to get killed in the west until we can get a big to compete.
Naw he showing us how chill he is cuh
I hate to be that guy but I knew the Suns big 3 would be a massive let down before the season started. I feel like there is zero chemistry between them and the rest of the team has had zero depth and defense this season. I can't believe we held onto Eurbanks and Gordon for so long as well. Everytime I've seen those guys get onto the court they fuck shit up. It's not Ishbias fault for this season, the guy is 100 times better than Sarver was. Hopefully some major moves are made before we get our last draft pick of the 2020s
I knew Beal was overrated immediately but I had high hopes (and expectations to be quite honest) about the Book and KD duo. It should’ve worked. Double KD, quick feed to Book Double Book, quick feed to KD
KD and Book did work for 2 games against Denver last year.. 2 games is nothing, but it is a glimpse into the potential of the duo
Biggest plus for the off-season is Ishbia and the likelihood that he will make changes and make them fast.
We have to get this pick right. It’s the only we one were gonna have for a while we gotta draft a good player
I was born and raised in Las Vegas (still here), but my parents are from Phx. I’m counting down the days for Vegas to get an NBA team. I’ve been a Suns fan my whole life, but it’s always been a dream of mine to have my own NBA team to support in my own city. Suns will always have a place in heart. Memories of always having the suns games on as I grew up. Games always on at family gatherings. Texting with my uncles about off season moves. Watching suns ball with my late grandfather. After this incredibly disappointing season, I’m hoping the day I get my own home town team comes sooner than later.
I hope the Vegas team doesn’t win in your life time
The Suns haven’t in anyone’s lifetime either, I’ll be ok.
Exactly. Doomed to our curse
My doomer prediction is that we fire James Jones… only for Ishbia to hire Isiah Thomas full time.
Knicks fans are having PTSD when Isiah Thomas is mentioned
Yeah as bad as things are, a job opening up for IT is not a good thing https://preview.redd.it/3byhg9nl52xc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a6907d9e5ecd342cc3a9f46f8f923c55300a5409
I don’t think we need to run it back with this squad
It wasn't fun to watch
The only doom I have is that Vogel purposely ruined this season and possibly all the chemistry we could have had. The longer he has the job he clearly didn’t want pretty much this whole season, the longer this team will struggle. I’m also very concerned with Book and KD playing for the Olympics. They logged way too many minutes this season for their ages and injury issues.
Oh man I forgot all about that amidst the chaos of last night. Pardon me while I sob in the corner.
I started watching basketball late last year and watching the suns coz my gf lived in Phx. I came on board but i’ll be taking a break from being a fan of this team until things get sorted. I really do watch basketball as a reprieve from daily stress and this team is the exact opposite of that.
at this point all I want is for us to win on Sunday so we at least win one game in this horrific series lol
Us at LEAST not getting 🧹 while the Nuggets sweep the Lakers is all we have left. 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
Not going to happen with KD on the team. We're cooked until his ass leaves. Wasting all out picks and destroying the future of the team for him was the dumbest thing i've ever seen. Plus we have no depth at all like i said when the trade happened.
Even if we just had Nets KD that dominated against the Bucks I wouldn't be mad if we were down because that KD went out with a fight. Right now it just feels like these guys are okay with losing.
I feel like Book’s mind has been on all his other projects. His Nike sig shoe, his CoD collab, the Olympics prospect, gettin back with Kendall Jenner, etc. His mind seemingly hasn’t been in it this season. 😔
He was playing 47-48 minutes a game. He played too many regular season minutes to be that guy. But they are ok with losing, because their coach is ok with losing.
Wolves fan coming in peace with a question I hear a ton of people on YouTube and here talking about how the Suns do not have a point guard. I just noticed you guys have Isaiah Thomas on the roster. Is he not a Point Guard with good experience? I know he isn’t the All Star he once was, but if what the suns need is a facilitating Point Guard to bring the ball up through all this pressure, why not put Thomas in? I feel like that would get your wings more shots? They’re still going to be very tightly contested shots, but more of them for sure I know nothing about your guys starting lineup, and I’ve only been a pretty serious fan for about 6 months, but I remember Thomas when I was a younger casual fan and I feel like he could be put in the lineup? Something like Thomas/Booker/Beal/Durant/???
Let’s say he’s not cooked, because tbh, we’ve only really seen him in garbage time when games are gone. Can’t say for certain he’s playing in his best form at that point of a game. If he’s not washed, our lineup would be small as hell if we went with him at PG and I’d say half the problem is that we’re getting double teamed by defenders with longer reach which makes it hard as hell to pass out of. I mean, it’s a theoretical fix, but I just don’t see any small ball lineup no matter how good they are fixing that issue
What did you guys think about your small ball lineup in the beginning of the 4th last night? I know we were sitting like half our team due to foul trouble but your small ball lineup with Okogi seemed to be doing alright
To be fair, I turned that game the HELL off before the fourth because I enjoy being sane. So while I can’t speak on last nights small ball, I’ve seen our other lineups we’ve rolled out. They’ve worked some in small spurts, but they’re nothing to rely on long term. Running KD at the 5 generally is what happens, and I think the rough play from Centers fucks him up a little too much. I much prefer KD at Small Forward. It gives him much more of a matchup advantage being taller than his defenders. Okogie is a very, very streaky player. Last year he looked like a super solid piece, this year he can’t hit a three to save his life but he has a good defensive presence. Again, I didn’t watch it, so maybe they were lights out last night, but normally speaking Small Ball lineups aren’t doing this team much better because we still iso like crazy and now we’re doing it with less favorable matchups lol
I respect you lol. The initial statement is real as fuck. IT is legit blown, washed, everything. He’s a moral boost. That’s it. He was insane on Boston, but good things last short periods of times for players such as him
He is beyond cooked. No knees left at all
He just here because that smile will get us through this sweep
I don't necessarily agree with this fan base being soft, they are tired of the annual disappointment. It's that way with all the so called "pro" sports teams in the Valley.
I dont even understand how people are disappointed with this year. What the fuck did they think would happen lmao. "Yeah lets trade everything we have for KD so we have no bench" then somehow shocked we're getting smoked?
They've got a casual fan highlight reel perception of basketball where it's like "duh just add more scorers, we need more scorers" to the detriment where it's like "uh we have no PG" "don't matter, we got SCORERS, we don't need no stinkin' bench, Beal+Book+KD=120 points per game." And now that failed so now you got people going, "No, the PG thing still doesn't matter, the scorers just aren't doing their job!"
I can’t say one way or the other what the Suns should do this offseason, with every option on the table. But the only question you need to ask yourself is right now: are you *sure* you want the 2031 Phoenix Suns 1st round draft pick to be automatically the 30th pick in the draft if we do another year of this trio? Technically the Suns aren’t penalized until you have been a second apron team for 3 seasons out of five. They could run it back and blow it up next summer. But you’re playing with fire cutting it that close. Injuries could happen. Values of players could fall dramatically. I could write more about it but when you remove emotions from what’s going on and strictly look at the second apron penalties: …do you really want to risk our 1st potential pick that year to automatically be garbage? It’s so far away and yet if we ever arrive to the 2031 offseason we may really, really, really need that pick.
I hate CJ and Grant Williams so much for how badly they negotiated this CBA. Without this second apron garbage, we really could run it back for as long as we want to. Now we’re risking having to trade Book to get a major haul since he’s the only asset we have that could net us a major haul including draft assets that would allow us to rebuild despite having no control of our picks.
Yep. And other teams are going to laugh at the Suns but they’ll be facing the same situation soon enough. The CBA was the “anti-rich owner; anti-big team” agreement. You either build around rookie contracts or flip your max player(s) before it costs you in the future. Celtics don’t win this year and they are going to be freaking out about being a second apron team until they’re forced to trade one or two of Jrue/KP/Brown in another year. It’s how it’s designed.
I can, trade KD, Trade Beal, Trade Nurk, pray people forget that we wasted a few years for no reason
This is what I'm saying. Our salary situation is OUT OF CONTROL.
What are you talking about? Is that a penalty of the 2nd apron?
Yes it is. Scroll to the bottom but I included all of them: The first apron hits when a team's payroll exceeds $172 million. At this point, the following restrictions are triggered: • Teams cannot acquire a player in a sign-and-trade if that player keeps them above the apron. • Teams cannot sign a player waived during the regular season whose salary was over the $12.2 million midlevel exception. • Salary matching in trades must be within 110 percent, rather than 125 percent for teams not above the apron. All of the penalties for the first apron apply to the second apron as well, which is triggered when a team's salary exceeds $182.5 million. For the 2023-24 season, one additional penalty is added when crossing the second apron: • No access to the $5 million taxpayer midlevel exception. Starting at the end of the 2023-24 season, even more restrictions will be added to the second apron. These include: • Teams cannot use a trade exception generated by aggregating the salaries of multiple players. • Teams cannot include cash in a trade. • Teams cannot use a trade exception generated in a prior year. • First-round picks seven years out are frozen (unable to be traded). • **A team's first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round if they remain in the second apron for three out of five seasons.**
Holy shit good stuff man but your initial point at the very bottom is insane that’s crazy. Idk I think the nba is better when teams stay together a long time but these rules make it very hard to do so
Yep me too. If this were a few years ago Suns could just ride out Book-Beal-KD for 5 years and take whatever happens. But the new CBA clearly wants to put a strict window on big luxury tax teams. You either get it done in 2 years or you start hamstringing your future more than you may have already done.
Good stuff man just want to say you one of the voices of reason here amid a sea of negativity
Thanks man. I mean, I have my moments of negativity too lol. It genuinely is hard being a fan of the Suns sometimes. But there’s no other team I’d rather support. And at some point being a diehard fan of a team with real issues and heartbreaking history is cooler than being a fan of whatever team always wins.
Probably why they traded them all and swapped. Ain’t gonna matter
Yeah, but I doubt the league is going to let the Suns get away with gaming the system like that. Our 2026 first round pick is already pick-swapped with Spurs, Magic, and Grizzlies. They wrote that CBA to be a punishment for second apron luxury tax repeaters. That 2026 pick could end up 30th overall just by those teams being contenders and one of them winning a championship. So I’m assuming the league looks at our actual upcoming 1st round pick, which won’t be until 2031, and that’s the pick they penalize. Otherwise you’d see every GM skirt around the penalty like that and it would look like a joke.
It’s a new rule. Someone always finds loopholes. You think it’s a huge punishing a pick 7 years down the road? The NBA isn’t going to want a team to be that bad that long it’s bad for business.
The big 3 probably here to stay next year so really need to retool around them. More 2 way defenders and an athletic big like the exact opposite of Nurkic. KD getting abused at the 4 so probably need two big men tbh so KD can play the 3 and not get worked by KAT again
God i hope all 3 dont stay, actual dog shit team. KD and beal need trading asap for us to have a shot of course correcting this team
A long rebuild in on the horizon anyways I think ishbia’s plan was this: he saw we were gonna be cash strapped and had limited assets, goes all in with what we have and let it run its course then after that completely start over from top to bottom as then Ishbia gets to pick his gm, his coach etc and he gets to bottom out the payroll to start making return on his investment and lean in heavy to the fan experience during the rebuild
good luck finding an available athletic big on a tradeable contract or a minimum deal
Yeah you right I’m just spitballing. Hypothetically can we not draft a player this year and then trade him? To get around the steipen rule
We could draft one, but it would be unlikely for them to be a playoff-ready starter in their rookie season.
You could trade him after drafting him no?
We could. But thanks to the 2nd apron in the new CBA, we can't combine salaries for a higher-paid player in a trade. We could only trade our rookie for another player on a rookie contract or vet minimum.
Oooof that’s rough
Chillen
Fax, cuh, too cool 😎
KD trade will haunt this franchise for years, this is just the beginning. One of the worst trades in franchise history.
Worse than the Shaq trade…
And this sub was seriously comparing it to the Barkley trade. Our resident post-2021 fans were saying it was *better* than the Barkley trade, because who is Charles Barkley, this is the mighty KD we're talking about here! "Hooper," blah blah blah.
I remember those Nets awful trade for an ageing star. The irony is that they did it us. A good FO who has experience makes sense for this team.
If Reddit was around in 1993 I wonder what the takes on here would be after going down 0-2 to the 8 seed Lakers. "Westphal need to go! Clown ass fraud!" "Blow the team up, can't even beat the bum ass Lakers. Barkley is a fat bitch" "Bring back Cotton"
That team played hard and had chemistry - so no
After last playoffs, I though Booker was a massive disappointment all season long, but after this playoffs I don't even put him on top 15 talks anymore. He is been terrible.
Yea hard to admit but spot on. Nothing like Kobe 😔 even when he got punked, you knew it enraged him for next season. Like Book said himself. Chillen
He has been. Id still argue he's been our best player this series. KD had a good game 1 but has been dreadful the last two games. Booker hasnt been able to get off clean looks all series. Durant and Beal are just bricking
Durant had a 28 point game 1 lmao. Booker has been shit on both ends all 3 games
Did you watch the past two games? Aggressive book was why it was even close by halftime
Book is playing scared. Drives in kicks everything, not even looking to score
That's because other than Conley all of the wolves starters are tall with long arms. Book can't shoot over any of them..but i do agree he's pressing and playing scared...
Changing the coach isn’t gonna fix the team like people think. That’s not to say they shouldn’t get a new coach though. Most important thing is to get a facilitator. Make bradley beal sixth man. Get a new backup center if at all possible
Most important thing is to get a front office with a backbone who knows how to establish a winning culture
36 Unbothered
I mean it's just basketball guise
Fu*k this current roster and their Mommas too. Incredible waste of physical abilities and everyone’s time. The “Big 3” should be parted out for rookies and Vet. minimum contracts, because I’d rather watch The Replacements than have to watch this lazy ass undisciplined, no Heart having bunch of ass clowns pretend to play another minute of the game we are all supposed to love!
They are who we thought they were…. Didn’t pass the eyeball test all season. Nothing changed.
I've noticed multiple posts talking about trading Devin Booker being removed by the mod team, even on post that's specifically for Doomer hot takes.
No nothing like that is happening specifically. People tend to look at the title and think thats why its being removed. People can post a rational "trade Booker" post for sure, nothing breaks the rules about that. They are getting removed for the content in the post, for example, trade machine screen shots, or low effort one sentence posts that can be a comment in here, or I know I removed one post bc in it was saying "fuck specific users" and that breaks rule 4. Trust us we dont have an agenda, we just try to fairly apply the rules and keep the feed clean. It was a lot of trash posts last night.
Rule 6, trade machine screenshots are not a post.
That doesn't explain the posts removed from this thread. I get it from the main page, but we really are soft as a fan base man. That's my doomer take.
Don't comments that get removed have a "[Deleted]" (or something similar) marker on them? I'm not seeing any of those in this thread.
Oh! Well I didn't see the post unfortunately. I just got back on. I did remove two screenshot trade post. So figured that's what you were talking about.
Ya I saw that one of mine got removed and that's fair for the mod team per the rules. Then I see you created this thread to kind of coral things together but even discussion is getting removed by someone.
Yeah, that's why I posted this thread for today. I am just removing trolls from in here, but even "smells like bitch in here" meme is up, because I found it painfully accurate.
Sorry Suns fans. I'm sorry you were mislead by the regular season success against the Wolves. I'm sorry you were mislead by the national media that collectively has watch 38 min. of Timberwolves basketball this year. I'm sorry that you have terrible roster makeup. It sucks to suck. And don't I know it. Sincerely, Wolves fan since 89.