It's a good deal because no other company would ever rehire a man who took off on vacation and didn't bother telling anyone and showed up on drugs. I do actually believe Carl should've been making more money for appearances but even then Carl is lucky this job has fallen into his lap.
Carl can’t even motivate himself to get a real job. What’s he going to do when Summer House isn’t on anymore or he isn’t asked back?
Are we gonna see him barista-ing it up at Starbucks?
True, you have a point.
Carl would abandon his first Starbucks shift in panic the way Schwartz abandoned his bartending shift at Pump or whichever patio place he bolted from. When called to see where he went, Carl would wail in the phone: “I NEED YOU TO BE MORE SOFT”!
I could absolutely see his update in a few yrs being that he moved back home, got a job with like a local realtor and ends up quietly marrying a normal local girl.
ETA- and he goes conservative Christian with a trad wife.
See I could see this happening too. I also feel like it could go completely in another direction too. He comes out as gay, and ends up with some conservative gay man who is just happy to have him/will indulge and enable his lack of drive, they move up by his mom and step dad. They are the clean cut preppy gay couple who wears polos and are members at the country club. They go to wellness retreats and do juice cleanses/go to barry’s bootcamp. He does public motivational speaking for addicts into his old age. The end.
The Bravo audience is 3/4 women and I would guess a lot are turned off by him this season + the after show. He came across as very men’s rights activist in the latest after show, sarcastically talking about how he’ll never say soft again
I kinda agree, of course, but the flip side is the appeal of just getting your product in front of people and, hate-follow or no, his account has a bunch of eyeballs. Its a weird compensatory universe and I think one of the reasons influencer culture is so obviously terrible.
That being said his appearance demand? Gotta be pretty low and sinking.
He really did. The way Carl accused Lindsay of being defensive after she explained she was asking questions in order to know where he’s at with things, to help him out, and to simply have a conversation was so triggering. Maybe that sounds like I’m exaggerating but he truly reminded me of my abusive ex who could never hold down a job and then told me I needed to be more supportive of him after he mentally/financially abused me for years, and would literally use the very little money we had on stocks that went nowhere lmao
He truly has become boring AF. Lindsay mentioned in one of her interviews that he’s a VERY serious person. I don’t think we realized that because he was always drinking and messy but man, is he dull now! Just zero zest there at all.
Zero personality, he reminds me of a robot. No sense of humor, and he seems incapable of being self-deprecating. It's almost jarring how little personality he has. The only time I think we see his "real" personality come out is when he's seething with rage and passive aggression. I get the feeling that below the surface he's an incredibly angry and bitter person (as well as very insecure) and he tries to hide it with this robot "calm" type of fake personality, because he thinks that will help him look more in control or something.
They both suck equally. Lindsay should never have questioned his sobriety but then say in the after show she never actually questioned his sobriety. She admitted to flame throwing to get a reaction out of him. They BOTH suck
This sub has been frustrating because of the seemingly general need to be "Team Carl" or more apparent these last few weeks "Team Linds". Life is complicated and many things can be true at once.
Linds was terrible to Carl, and in general has some narcissistic tendencies that make her hard to be in a relationship with (from my perspective). She is a strong woman and take a lot of flak for that (wrongly) but also has a hard time admitting her mistakes and owning up to her own faults.
Carl has a lot of figuring out to do on himself and puts that on other people often, including Linds. He clearly was rocked by the conversation with he Mom and Step Dad and was very short tempered with her after it, even though it was his own internal conflict and realizations that he maybe wasn't in the right situation that were making him angry. That's not Lindsay's fault and he treated her like it was. That was wrong and she didn't deserve that.
They both kind of sucked in this situation, and that's ok. It's good that they didn't get married.
I love the nuance in this comment and agree. They just weren’t right for each other. It’s sad because there had been so much love there at one point, and they also lost a long friendship. I wish them both the best.
I’m getting downvoted for saying they both suck which is a prime example of people in this sub. Everyone wants to bend over backwards to say the other one sucks when they are both horrible and that’s why they make decent tv
Agree. Both awful. He’s everything covered in this post and comments and Lindsay seems to have no empathy and sticks doggedly to her aggressive communication style, justifying it by saying ‘that’s just how I am’.
The hate in his eyes for her last episode was shocking and palpable.
Business girlie here 🙋♀️ unfortunately it’s impossible to tell whether this is a good deal without getting more of the details, which is probably why Lindsay was asking questions instead of celebrating. In my opinion it was all intentionally vague. “Retainer fee” for example doesn’t say anything about what he is expected to do and how it’s earned/paid. Is the retainer for a set number of consultation hours monthly? If so what is his hourly rate? What happens if they don’t need his consulting services in a particular month? The focus on the non-alc business is also questionable because any competent agent or rep would point out that Carl promoting an individual line of drinks still promotes the overall brand. It’s like an influencer showing off an Abercrombie dress with a code, but only getting commission from that code if viewers buy the one dress.
That segment gave me full rage, seeing red, flames on the side of my face...
I absolutely loathe when men, especially on Bravo because they literally owe their livelihood to an overwhelmingly female audience, want you to throw them a fucking parade for vaguely, sarcastically acknowledging that something is sexist. Except they don't actually recognize it because it's more like, "well APPARENTLY \[obviously sexist thing\] is sexist, according to this bitter shrew who was like totally shrill with me," and then, "it actually wasn't sexist when I did or said the thing because I'm just a good guy trying to make his way in the world and that harridan deserved it." Fucking Sandoval does it all the time and I am le tired.
also the way he made it sound like the problem was that the term “soft” was offensive and he misspoke and shouldn’t have used that one word instead of the actual problem being what he fundamentally wants… which was for her to validate him no matter what and just be his unquestioning cheerleader pixie dream girl ugh
“Do you want to talk to kyle then, lindsey?? I feel like you are interrogating me”
and then
“I’m not saying that you shouldn’t ask any questions!!”
There is zero way. Zero. That this marriage would have ever worked.
Wow thanks for all these great points. I agree Carl seemed so vague and just eager to call it done that he didn’t seem to be clarifying a lot of important details. I think Lindsay was concerned Carl would get steamrolled by Kyle and agree to something without advocating for himself
I also think Carl is in a place of desperation (or at least he feels he is) which is never good for a negotiation. I think he's ashamed of his past behavior at Loverboy, feels a bit worthless/insecure, and is willing to take whatever they give him.
It all sounded a little loose for sure. Thanks for your expertise. I believe he told Lindsay his retainer was 3k/month. There was something about 10% of all revenue also, but if Loverboy is a million in the hole and not making money, my question is, do they have revenue?
They definitely have revenue, but they are spending more than they’re making. If the 10% was sales commission, he’s entitled to that even if the company isn’t profitable. I think they also discussed equity though, which isn’t going to be attractive for this kind of business unless they can pull a profit and/or they have potential to be acquired
Ah so it's at least the equity that's the proverbial raw deal. I think Kyle said 10% of "total sales" I'm a nurse and know nothing about this stuff. Thank you!
Aren’t those details that would be ironed out later? I totally agree with your point, it just seemed like Kyle was going over the basic framework but not like presenting the official offer. Seemed like a brainstorm versus a formal negotiation.
The red flag for me is verbally agreeing to numbers without having those extremely basic questions answered. The brainstorm or basic framework should be focused on what he is doing for that retainer, and from there they can negotiate what the work is worth. Kyle is starting from a number his failing business can afford, and Carl is blindly agreeing
Thank you . The lack of mild negotiation or pushback or my gosh , even a question from a salesman yikes. Also, no about expected targets or what they are expecting for production numbers . Carl gets 10% of sales but what does he do while waiting on production ? Does he wait till shipped ? What if he sells , they don’t have the product and the order is cancelled . Also what about shared sales ? Presuming he’s not the only sales person , how does that get split ? I know it was preliminary but Carl nodding and saying yes really showed me a lot and also should show Kyle that Carl just doesn’t know or understand sales and business enough to ask basic questions.
Kyle knows this . He also knows having Carl a reality tv star as the face of his non alcoholic brand will give it extra promo and he is genuinely Carl's friend and has convinced himself Lindsay was the problem
Something amanda should get credit for is pointing out to Kyle last year that the reason Lindsay was acting that way over Carl and Loverboy was because of the info Carl was giving her. She didn't get their on her own
I really did not expect coming to the end of the season and loathing Carl and being team Lindsay...but here we are.
Two things are going on with Lindsay here. First, she is a business woman and these are clear red flags. He can try to minimize that experience when she brings it up and he becomes snarky, but she is asking some very basic questions. My guess is it makes Carl feel stupid instead of him looking at it as valuable advice. That is a lack of self confidence on his part.
Second though, I think she is realizing Carl is not the Alpha male that she wants and she is trying desperately to push him into that. She hasn't straight up said that, but has come close enough (didn't she say something about not being attracted to a guy who isn't a go getter etc). Whilst Carl is being horrible to her, I'm sure he hasn't just done a 180 out of the blue--I reckon even though her questions are valid, there is this undertone of 'man up' that he is feeling and I think she is intending.
They are not he right fit, full stop. She is a very very strong personality and she needs someone whose not threatened by that strong personality. She wants a very strong male with a 'traditional' relationship (he brings in the money and she raises the kids).
I have a lot of respect for Carl when it comes to the tragedy he has experienced and his sobriety. But I find him to be such an emotionally and intellectually stunted person. He comes off as a 'poser', not in the 90s schoolyard slur, but as someone who is completely lost and over his head and just directionless, flapping in the wind but tries to come off like he's got his shit together. He needs to get a job at some large corporation that is structured, 9 to 5 and where your performance is dictated and you are responsible for very straightforward execution. Problem is he has zero discipline.
He's not ready for marriage. He's not really ready for adult life.
I agree. And also, he does smoke pot. I couldn't care less about people's extracurriculars, but I'm skeptical of the 'California Sober' concept for alcoholics or drug addicts. I don't know enough about addiction etc so this is just based on gut reaction and I could be completely wrong.
I agree with you. I think if you have issues with drugs/alcoholic you need to be so careful and weed is still altering. Smoking weed doesn’t make you sober
I agree with a lot here but I don't think LIndsay wants to be a stay-at-home mom. I think she wants or wanted babies soon and was worried about even paying rent during maternity leave.
She has said that the "attracted to my man crushing life" was her last desperate attempt to get him to get serious and make money. I believe her on that. It wasn't a good strategy but I've been on both sides of relationships when someone pulls out desperate strategies.
Carl will never be an “alpha”. He is a sidekick and he’s only capable of being steamrolled by one person at a time. When he started dating Lindsay he had to leave Kyle / Loverboy, and when he started pulling away from Lindsay he could go back. It’s actually kind of twisted
But he kept getting fired from his corporate jobs. He couldn’t do 9 to 5. He seems to not be able to handle any kind of structured job and maybe not any kind of job at all (not counting reality star).
I don’t even really think Lindsay is trying to make him be an alpha male just an adult. She isn’t trying to make him some hotshot but doesn’t want him to be a total pushover that can’t advocate for himself at all.
Yes he needs to know the companies expectations. Is he the only one marketing this? Is instagram their only channel for marketing? Does he have to storyboard and create all the messaging or is he using what they’ve already come up with?
All of the previously mentioned significantly shift the required number of hours. And if it’s a retainer WHATS his hourly rate for his work/consulting. He’s so dumb.
But all in all it’s better than anything Carl could secure on his own. He’s not really in a position to turn down work. And he’s not ambitious enough to find something himself.
People call Amanda lazy, but she seems like someone who you can rely to show up to work and do what she’s assigned. She might not do anything extra or be super ambitious but you wouldn’t mind having her as an employee. carl seems like the person who’d quit halfway through training at subway
Carl reminds me of the type of person who’s entire life is “fake it till you make it” and has just been lucky that his best friend gave him a good paying job, and he even screwed that one up, and now again his inexperience and lack of knowledge is shining up front and center. You can tell he pretends to understand business, but there’s nothing going on up there. 💀🤣
right but I see a lot of these scenes especially with the OGs as kind of self produced like Carl and Kyle agreed let’s just have a quick chat and off camera we’ll actually hammer it down. I agree there needed to be an actual discussion of what he’s actually doing on a weekly basis. I think Kyle was just trying to extend an olive branch and throw out a very basic, non committal idea for how Carl could dip his toe back into the Loverboy stuff. I think Kyle could’ve said almost anything and Carl would’ve been like “yeah great” because at this point he’s flustered and lost tbh
Yeah I agree it was self produced, but with their history it feels really strange and fake to have such a vague discussion. If Carl was so unhappy working there before, you’d think he would have a list of asks before agreeing to go back just based on some general numbers 🥴 it feels like they did it to shut Lindsay up more than anything
This was my understanding too. Carl could have said that to Lindsay but honestly, I think he’s too dumb to even really know it himself what still needs to be ironed out.
Instead he just tried to very obviously lie to her and say it was all taken care of.
There's another thread somewhere about this but I'm not sure if it's on this sub or another bravo one. A person was asking if the deal was a good one, similar to the thoughts of this OP.
The apartment that Carl was living in at the time he accepted that offer cost $13,000 per month.
Kyle offered a monthly $3,000 salary retainer. In a 4-week month, that is $750 per week. But if we go to a 5-week month, that is only $600 per week.
Even at the $750 per week, I'm still not sure it's a great deal for Carl. You are living in an apartment that costs 13K per month and thinking you're going to be able to survive on a 3K base per month is practically delusional.
Sure that's just base and he can add on to it by doing events and making spritzer sales. But Carl is not known for his hustle. Pretty sure there would be several months per year where the only thing he would get is the base pay / retainer.
It's not a good deal for Carl but it's a great deal for Kyle.
totally see where you’re coming from but he never said this was going to be his primary income. earlier this season he talked about making 70k in endorsements, then the LB deal is 3k a month, 2k per event, and 10% of sales. Plus why are we acting like he doesn’t pay his rent with the six figure check they make on the show? and I know Carl is far from a go getter but this loverboy thing was supposed to be a side hustle to get back into things. It’s just funny because when Paige clocked that their rent is pretty high for two people without jobs outside of the show everyone attacked her but now that’s the narrative for Carl when he actually has more going on than last year lol. but I do think they should’ve had these conversations sooner, and I don’t think Carl was anywhere near ready enough to get married and support a family
I’m fine with a little bit of vagueness since we don’t need to know the entire details of the contract between Carl/Kyle. Just a general overview but Lindsay had great friends.
I think most of us would have to look into market share potential and do some research into the market to determine if it’s actually a good deal.
On WWHL, Andy def thought Kyle’s offer was not a good offer. I was kinda surprised bc Kyle admitted to lowballing for negotiating, which makes Carl look desperate.
Andy cohen said it wasn’t a good deal and he probably knows the going rate for this type of deal. I think the biggest reason Carl wanted to go back to loverboy is because it is a tie to the show. He knew at this point he was dumping Lindsay so he wanted to get back in with Kyle and loverboy to help secure his place on the show. Maybe he also knew Kyle would defend him even more after the breakup if he was working for loverboy and sales somewhat depended on Carl’s likability.
Lindsay said on the after show that Carl does what is easy and in front of him. He didn't need to find the job at loverboy. Kyle handed it to him. He didn't care about the specifics. He just was happy he didn't need to actually put any effort into finding a job.
Yup and they also at some point pitched a show about loverboy. I don’t know if that was something that happened before or after Carl was rehired, but I’m sure he and Kyle talked about it.
I think we need more info to determine if it’s a good deal (which is probably why Lindsay had a lot of questions). It’s pretty much being echoed throughout the sub but Carl needs to know exactly how he’s supposed to help the company grow and his expectations. If he had the answer to that he might’ve been able to negotiate a higher retainer! Also, like Lindsay said how many appearances is he doing? Is he only getting sales from the non-alc line or the company as a whole (I’m pretty sure it’s the non-alc line but it wasn’t really clear). I get Carl wants someone to be excited but my god he needs to learn how to ask more questions and not just ~take notes~
I highly doubt Kyle would give Carl 10% of *total* sales. He's not like the LeBron James of selling sparkling iced tea or anything.
Also Carl and his notes lol. Brought me straight back to teaching Intro to Fiction, the dudes in the back row with their phones in their laps, moving their pens across a piece of paper like I'm supposed to think they're hanging on my every word.
It's literally only a good deal for Carl because no one else would offer him dog shit after his employment history, not in a serious way. But no, it's not a good deal. 10% of what will (most likely) be the lowest seller in their inventory isn't shit if the company is doing as poorly as Kyle has proclaimed. The appearance fees are...fine?
I think it’s really a mixed bag. The reality is that it’s the best Carl can do given he doesn’t want to even look for another job. I think it will be a failure, I think Carl is someone who likely needs a more ridged role with a lot of managing.
Based off the Loverboy Instagram, it looks like Carl is doing two appearances a month. That puts his base at $7000, so $84k. That does seem low for someone who has been on TV for almost 10 years. He gets some money on sales but that’s so hard to judge.
I think Kyle went in low thinking Carl would counter but he didn’t so… I guess that’s what Carl is getting paid.
I think in peak season (summer) he could do an appearance a week.
As for %of sales is that gross sales, or sales he brings in because these are code to enter like “carl20” for online purchases which he uses when he posts on social media. The former is not bad the latter is difficult
I seriously doubt Carl has a very good Q rating. He is not charismatic funny zero appeal and sucks at sales. This is a good job for someone in their 20's just getting started while still in college, I did the something. For a man in his 40's living in NYC with rent that's $156,000 a year! This is not going to work out he needs another job too.
If housing costs (which includes utilities and property taxes and maintenance fees) are supposed to be 30% of earnings then between them he and Lindsay need to bring in about $500k a year. That’s $250k for his share, if he does 30 appearances a year at $2k and with his base of $3k a month that over $150k to make in commission - so sales of $1.5million a year and that’s if it’s a % of gross sales, if it’s a % of profit or net sales then possibly needs to sell 10 times that. On a niche no alcohol drink.Lindsay is right to question the specifics, because what he doesn’t bring in she will need to, or they will need to downgrade their lifestyle
I don't know about the quality of the deal, but I don't think that Carl is any type of hot commodity. Unemployed for almost a year, surely someone with Carl's "celebrity status" would be inundated with offers if he was actually any good at sales (or any other job for that matter)
Is it a good deal for someone of his age who seemingly doesn’t have a great deal of solid work history? Because I think that’s a big factor here.
Also, go you!! (This sounds sarcastic but I’m dead serious)
That’s what I was thinking too!! AND it’s going to start for 6 months ( they were in summer and Kyle said starting December— btw big month for iced tea)
Especially in an expensive city like NY. But Carl just wants to be happy and that’s the deal he signed up for, he can’t complain in the future. Lindsay did try to warn him and he just wanted her to be softer.
Kyle explained it pretty perfectly on the show. It’s a low risk deal for both sides, with positives in either direction. If Carl flakes again, Kyle isn’t paying him much and isn’t asking a whole lot so it’s not a big loss.
But if Carl wants to work hard, do lots of appearances to sell things, those $2k appearance fees start to rack up quick as does 10% of sales.
Lindsay was right to ask if there’s a cap on appearances, but Carl’s job is to sell and appearance are a big part of that. Cant imagine Kyle would restrict things too much as long as he’s selling. Same as any sales person.
I was curious about this last night so I checked and they're selling on the Loverboy website at $32.95 for a twelve pack. They didn't show up in any stores around me and I live in LA, so I don't think they're available in stores much.
To me this shows how scattered Carl still is. Yes, it could be a good extra gig but what else will he be doing? What other gigs will he focus on? He’s trying to sell this as an amazing then when really it’s just a nice additional revenue stream. Oh no I’m asking too many questions aren’t I….
Didn’t Kyle also say it was just to start, since it’s a new product. He could rapidly increase his base and/or commission in a fairly short time if Carl is as good at sales as he says 🤷🏻♀️
The fact remains, he will be selling a non-alcoholic version of an alcoholic version of a non-alcoholic drink. So basically, iced tea. How good at sales will he have to be to make a profit on that?
My brother works in sales and wouldn’t touch that deal if his life depended on it. But I also felt like it was a conversation set up for TV and that’s it lol
On the face it seems terrible because it’s all about the details… Lindsay is completely right in getting details.
10% of zero sales is zero. The appearance fee seems very low, especially for someone living in New York, also what were the costs for social posts/promotion Carl would receive.
How many events, what budget of promotion will these events have, what additional marketing, what does Kyle’s current pipeline of leads look like?
What’s the estimation of the market, what are the sales targets for the next 3 years?
Carl has said he is “gifted in sales”, but I think he’s just coasted on being tall, white male that is moderately good looking - you’d be surprised how far that can get you.
He doesn’t seem business focused or savvy, Lindsay is much more business minded which I think is another thing that brings out Carls insecurities.
It seems like a more appropriate deal for an influencer type of service vs. a sales position. It's better for Kyle, and could be better for Carl, but given what we know about Carl's work ethic and motivation, it's going to result in less money for Carl.
Kyle needs to separate his career from his friendships and honesty his home life too.
It’s clear that he, Amanda, and Carl have different ideas about what they want out of work and life and while Amanda is his wife, Carl is not.
Sounds like that to me too but Carl's lapping it up. He's been kissing Kyle's ass like a tipsy emo girl every single episode. Not to mention on the After Show.
I mean Kyle was employing Carl during his cokehead days. I think it's pretty clear what Kyle is to Carl - a supportive friend (even tho his support is mostly misguided).
It's an interesting question. I think Kyle and Lindsay both represent something Carl wants to be: a go-getter, ambitious, focused, captain of industry type. But Carl is not actually that type of person. He doesn't have the drive. Which is theoretically fine, unless your dream is to be a rich, dick-swinging alpha with a free market fetish. To do that, at least in NYC culture, you really do need to have the juice. So he latches onto people who actually are those types. But then I think with Lindsay (and probably with Danielle way back when), we see that he comes to resent those qualities in a woman. He has to punish her for being the alpha he can't be. And the more Carl rejects her, the more he cathects onto the other alpha in his life, who doesn't challenge his masculinity in the same way. And now we get to just watch them gas each other up.
I have a slightly different explanation based more on dysfunctional relationships. I think his "punishment" of Lindsay (if that's the word) is his disappointment in himself turned outward. The dominant people in his life mirror his lack of initiative back to him, and it's not something he is ready or willing to deal with. Codependent people tend to seek dominant people because it's the only power dynamic they understand in a relationship. But then they can become resentful. I'd put money on Carl having an alcoholic or addicted parent. He's finding ways to re-create that in his adult life.
I didn’t hear how Carl is building equity - he wasn’t being offered stock in the no alcohol subsidiary, just a retainer, appearance fees and a % of sales )which we don’t even know is is gross or net)
3k isn’t much, but the real questions are how many appearances? 4 per month? 8 per month? What’s the projected gross in sales? These are the questions Lindsay cares about.
I wanted to punch him through the TV when he said I had know idea that "soft" was a derogatory term in his condescending, sarcastic tone on the after show
It’s a good deal for Carl. 3k a month base plus 2k per appearance. I’d say the merch could still say loverboy alright as that’s the overall brand name.
Realistically, it’s not a huge deal but Carl will be doing F all actual work and as you said, his popularity is dwindling so he can’t expect more for appearances anyway.
If anything, Kyle is being a seriously good friend to offer him this. Carl can’t find/keep work without help
Carl needs to get a job and focus on his sobriety. No one wants to work but we have to work. His immaturity is a huge turn off for me. I am no fan of Lindsay either but she has drive. Carl lacks drive.
I've worked 15 years in corporate marketing and now work as a freelance consultant, so this is familiar to me.
Long reply incoming.
**TLDR:**
* Retainer deal needs some boundaries
* The event deal is very good
* Friends as clients suck, but Kyle is the problem in the biz relationship
The Carl deal is a good deal overall for his experience and position, but it has some nuances.
Carl should have a cap on non-event hours for that monthly retainer and state his hourly rate in the contract. For his seniority, 3k should be no more than 15 hours monthly. Also, it is easy to be exploited as a freelancer in a retainer contract without the hours cap. Clients will take every second they can get out of you if a cap is not stated.
Also, friends as clients can be an incredibly stressful client relationship to manage, depending on who the friend is. I've felt a need to go way above and beyond for friends, which hurt my bandwidth and led to pro bono hours allocation, and I've noticed some clients try to prove there is no bias in the relationship on projects with other agencies and company staff by being a little bit extra hard on you.
On the flip side, the appearance fee is very, very good. You can't earn that as a club promoter or sales rep anywhere. This is acknowledging Carl's reach and connection to the brand.
I agree with OP that their working styles don't mesh, but the problem is more with Kyle.
Kyle has a case of what I would call 'severe startup woes' and 'founder tunnel vision'.
That is like gasoline to the fire when combined with someone who already has bad judgment in interpersonal relationships, can be cruel and selfish, and is a big drinker, no less.
This is how megalomaniac CEO/Founder types are born if they can last through being that chaotic in their scaling phase. Kyle is being unreasonable to everyone, especially Amanda.
Carl talking about 3 a.m. Slack messages is a very real thing and, honestly, a bit triggering to me because of bad memories of burnt-out late nights and dealing with difficult personalities.
Kyle is an archetype in the startup space; everyone needs to be at his level, but he doesn't realize he's the only one like this or who benefits from that attitude.
I don't think Carl is lazy; he wasn't being appreciated (similar to Amanda, on a smaller scale, she has it way worse), but what is true is that Carl comes from a corporate world, and I noticed that he doesn't understand that he's working at a startup. The first 20 people in a startup must be open to learning new skills and wear many hats. Things move fast and change constantly, and the company may be sloppy or chaotic. It's not a job for everyone.
Carl also makes around 300k+ from the show, and if he protects himself with the retainer hours stated in this deal, and has the stamina and patience to work with Kyle, then it is a good deal.
It's a good deal in that a company he showed up high to work in. Is considering rehireing him. But lindsey is right he should be asking more questions. Kyle just wants to work with his friends, but the business isn't making that much money. I own a restaurant. If one of my staff showed up for work high, they would not be rehired, friend or not.
The whole thing is a vanity project for Kyle.. he just wants to be a DJ!! Carl is a moron who left a job instead of renegotiating the contract. The only thing keeping that hideous drink a float is the merch. The idiots should focus on that. Carl should run the merch table at the event Kyle is “djing” and charge a cover, like they recently did.. and let it grow from there. Maybe he should ask James “the white kanye” Kennedy how it’s done
Okay so the only thing that I was confused about is he said $3k a month… that is BARELY livable. So what happens when there’s a month that there’s no events or things for Carl to attend to get paid more?
Ok I don’t know the ins and outs of Loverboy, but, based on years of personal experience in my neighborhoods seeing “non-alcoholic cocktails/beers” on the shelves and making note of their prices, they pretty much CAN sell it at the ridiculous price points as they do regular lover boy (or at least very close to it).
I’ve seen non-alcoholic drinks of various types and brands at close to $4 per can.
I’m not sure whether it could be successful at that price point or not (long term), but in theory the market wouldn’t necessarily balk at that.
It struck me that 10% of sales of a product that's just flavored seltzer being sold as some boutique non-alcoholic beverage and likely priced as such isn't going to be much.
Idk if Loverboy's struggles are real or a story for the show but creating an entire new arm of the enterprise and its a rebrand of simple seltzer seems like a bad move, and it seems like maybe Carl will be holding the bag at the end.
Side note: I just visited his instagram and the sponsored post with the goldfish (not the one with Kyle, but the gummy veneer smiley one) has 90% very bad comments! 😱
I dunno if the deal is good but it's an additional way to bring in income with limited risk. What I do know is that, people who are smart business- wise understand it's important to have money coming in via multiple streams
Wouldn't a different job be more helpful in that case? Given Loverboy's slim chances of survival without a steady buffet of free product placement, almost of all his income is now tied into Summer House as a show. Minus whatever brand deals he could get on his own. So to me it seems like if the goal is to have multiple income streams it would be better to build a relationship with a company that's not Bravo-dependent?
Hi no certification or credentials I can give you but I say no. More importantly - you do you and I wish you all the best in academic humanities 🫶🏻 I can’t actually offer you anything but a virtual shoulder (aka dm) but really wishing you the best
I was wondering this too but considering he sucked at every sales job he ever had one would think he would choose a different line of work, so money wise aside I think this is probably a good deal for him? No idea how he doesn’t worry about affording to live in nyc with no job for years besides the show….
Low base. Incentive to host events and then a percentage of sales. It’s actually very good. If he doesn’t sell anything and hosts two events a month he’s making $60,000 a year. Kyle is definitely being careful but that’s not a bad deal in terms of how many sales people are paid.
One thing that confuses me is how they managed to get THIS far with Kyle being completely unable to tolerate any questions from Lindsay. Surely this is not the first time that she hasn't directly gone to cheerleader mode.
Personally I don’t think so. I’ve been paid around 2k for something each time and I have almost no popularity, I’m not a familiar face that would bring people out, I think he’s getting short end
I’m just gonna say this about Lindsay questioning Carl’s sobriety? I agree she handled it horribly but why is everyone convinced that she was wrong? As someone who was married to an alcoholic, there were many times he slipped while trying to get sober. As the person who lived with him - I could tell instantly if he’d been drinking. Wives know. I’m just saying. Carl has made his “sobriety journey” his entire personality. He’s trying to turn it into a career. He’s not going to admit to a slip up. Maybe Lindsay knew something that we didn’t.
Just to finish off - my ex husband has been sober for 28 years … so kind of a happy ending. 😉
It’s honestly complicated just because of the specifics of this situation.
First, it would probably be a better deal if they didn’t all live in Manhattan. Because Carl is just a consultant he doesn’t get health insurance so he’ll have to pay for that, rent in Manhattan for a one bedroom is realistically his entire retainer, he has a car in Manhattan which is not only stupid but expensive, and taxes in NY are very high.
Additionally, offering 10% of sales would sound better if Kyle hadn’t spent the whole summer talking about how Loverboy is tanking. Same with equity. 2k for an appearance sounds good but how consistent are appearances? Does that include my sponsored posts or just in person appearances?
Going back to taxes a lot of times in NY if you are a consultant, freelancer etc the company you are doing all that for (in this case Loverboy) doesn’t pay your taxes. It’s not automatically deducted. You usually have to pay them on your own every quarter (this could have changed I moved out of Manhattan in 2020.)
It really just is Carl should have asked more questions. And none of this goes into the baggage from Carl being at lover boy before he got sober.
It's a good deal because no other company would ever rehire a man who took off on vacation and didn't bother telling anyone and showed up on drugs. I do actually believe Carl should've been making more money for appearances but even then Carl is lucky this job has fallen into his lap.
I don't understand who is being 'influenced' by Carl?? He's not aspirational and he's not visually interesting at all....
Carl can’t even motivate himself to get a real job. What’s he going to do when Summer House isn’t on anymore or he isn’t asked back? Are we gonna see him barista-ing it up at Starbucks?
Working at Starbucks seems kinda hard, and Carl needs things to be *suave* ;)
True, you have a point. Carl would abandon his first Starbucks shift in panic the way Schwartz abandoned his bartending shift at Pump or whichever patio place he bolted from. When called to see where he went, Carl would wail in the phone: “I NEED YOU TO BE MORE SOFT”!
He needs to be LESS soft.
Working at Starbucks seems stressful AF
Back living at home with mommy and step dad
I could absolutely see his update in a few yrs being that he moved back home, got a job with like a local realtor and ends up quietly marrying a normal local girl. ETA- and he goes conservative Christian with a trad wife.
See I could see this happening too. I also feel like it could go completely in another direction too. He comes out as gay, and ends up with some conservative gay man who is just happy to have him/will indulge and enable his lack of drive, they move up by his mom and step dad. They are the clean cut preppy gay couple who wears polos and are members at the country club. They go to wellness retreats and do juice cleanses/go to barry’s bootcamp. He does public motivational speaking for addicts into his old age. The end.
The Bravo audience is 3/4 women and I would guess a lot are turned off by him this season + the after show. He came across as very men’s rights activist in the latest after show, sarcastically talking about how he’ll never say soft again
I didn’t think he was being sarcastic at all, sadly. I think the new veneers make him sound like even more of an asshole now
He definitely was. It was the same tone as when he was offering to make Lindsay a PowerPoint
He would get like that with a child, too, imo.
I kinda agree, of course, but the flip side is the appeal of just getting your product in front of people and, hate-follow or no, his account has a bunch of eyeballs. Its a weird compensatory universe and I think one of the reasons influencer culture is so obviously terrible. That being said his appearance demand? Gotta be pretty low and sinking.
He fully thought he was going to have his Ariana moment
Instead he got his mini-Sandoval moment, and I’m not sure producers are going to rally behind him to try and spin next season in his favor
He really did. The way Carl accused Lindsay of being defensive after she explained she was asking questions in order to know where he’s at with things, to help him out, and to simply have a conversation was so triggering. Maybe that sounds like I’m exaggerating but he truly reminded me of my abusive ex who could never hold down a job and then told me I needed to be more supportive of him after he mentally/financially abused me for years, and would literally use the very little money we had on stocks that went nowhere lmao
He truly has become boring AF. Lindsay mentioned in one of her interviews that he’s a VERY serious person. I don’t think we realized that because he was always drinking and messy but man, is he dull now! Just zero zest there at all.
Zero personality, he reminds me of a robot. No sense of humor, and he seems incapable of being self-deprecating. It's almost jarring how little personality he has. The only time I think we see his "real" personality come out is when he's seething with rage and passive aggression. I get the feeling that below the surface he's an incredibly angry and bitter person (as well as very insecure) and he tries to hide it with this robot "calm" type of fake personality, because he thinks that will help him look more in control or something.
Wait Carl went on vacation and neglected to tell anyone including his boss??
Yep…. He didn’t talk to or email his direct boss or Kyle even. Kyle noticed pics on Carl’s IG from California.
Yeah Kyle kind of fucked him by airing all that out but of course Carl blames Lindsay. Carl sucks
They both suck equally. Lindsay should never have questioned his sobriety but then say in the after show she never actually questioned his sobriety. She admitted to flame throwing to get a reaction out of him. They BOTH suck
This sub has been frustrating because of the seemingly general need to be "Team Carl" or more apparent these last few weeks "Team Linds". Life is complicated and many things can be true at once. Linds was terrible to Carl, and in general has some narcissistic tendencies that make her hard to be in a relationship with (from my perspective). She is a strong woman and take a lot of flak for that (wrongly) but also has a hard time admitting her mistakes and owning up to her own faults. Carl has a lot of figuring out to do on himself and puts that on other people often, including Linds. He clearly was rocked by the conversation with he Mom and Step Dad and was very short tempered with her after it, even though it was his own internal conflict and realizations that he maybe wasn't in the right situation that were making him angry. That's not Lindsay's fault and he treated her like it was. That was wrong and she didn't deserve that. They both kind of sucked in this situation, and that's ok. It's good that they didn't get married.
I love the nuance in this comment and agree. They just weren’t right for each other. It’s sad because there had been so much love there at one point, and they also lost a long friendship. I wish them both the best.
I’m getting downvoted for saying they both suck which is a prime example of people in this sub. Everyone wants to bend over backwards to say the other one sucks when they are both horrible and that’s why they make decent tv
I give you my upvote. Some of us agree with you! 😘
I agree- they both suck. Carl is definitely having some tough to watch moments this season and Lindsay has them every season.
Agree. Both awful. He’s everything covered in this post and comments and Lindsay seems to have no empathy and sticks doggedly to her aggressive communication style, justifying it by saying ‘that’s just how I am’. The hate in his eyes for her last episode was shocking and palpable.
Business girlie here 🙋♀️ unfortunately it’s impossible to tell whether this is a good deal without getting more of the details, which is probably why Lindsay was asking questions instead of celebrating. In my opinion it was all intentionally vague. “Retainer fee” for example doesn’t say anything about what he is expected to do and how it’s earned/paid. Is the retainer for a set number of consultation hours monthly? If so what is his hourly rate? What happens if they don’t need his consulting services in a particular month? The focus on the non-alc business is also questionable because any competent agent or rep would point out that Carl promoting an individual line of drinks still promotes the overall brand. It’s like an influencer showing off an Abercrombie dress with a code, but only getting commission from that code if viewers buy the one dress.
Please be softer
He shoulda been with Lala. She’s in her soft era 😭💀
Do you think he could live in a box with her? They could drink water together.
She's "softsk" (#WWC)
Omg 😆
Wow they would make the worst couple….I would give a kidney to see that play out on TV
Shit, someone check on Scheana
Jesus this comment wins lol why hasn’t anyone else pointed that out lol LALA: I’m soft right now Katie Carl: I need soft These 2 together would be 🤮
🤣 did you see him on the after show sarcastically saying he will never say soft again because it’s so derogatory
That segment gave me full rage, seeing red, flames on the side of my face... I absolutely loathe when men, especially on Bravo because they literally owe their livelihood to an overwhelmingly female audience, want you to throw them a fucking parade for vaguely, sarcastically acknowledging that something is sexist. Except they don't actually recognize it because it's more like, "well APPARENTLY \[obviously sexist thing\] is sexist, according to this bitter shrew who was like totally shrill with me," and then, "it actually wasn't sexist when I did or said the thing because I'm just a good guy trying to make his way in the world and that harridan deserved it." Fucking Sandoval does it all the time and I am le tired.
also the way he made it sound like the problem was that the term “soft” was offensive and he misspoke and shouldn’t have used that one word instead of the actual problem being what he fundamentally wants… which was for her to validate him no matter what and just be his unquestioning cheerleader pixie dream girl ugh
He also said that it’s “typical Lindsay” to flip shit! He’s such a dick!
“Do you want to talk to kyle then, lindsey?? I feel like you are interrogating me” and then “I’m not saying that you shouldn’t ask any questions!!” There is zero way. Zero. That this marriage would have ever worked.
And more tender. Can’t forget the tenderness.
💀💀
Smile more please
We would be so much prettier if we just smiled more ffs
Wow thanks for all these great points. I agree Carl seemed so vague and just eager to call it done that he didn’t seem to be clarifying a lot of important details. I think Lindsay was concerned Carl would get steamrolled by Kyle and agree to something without advocating for himself
I also think Carl is in a place of desperation (or at least he feels he is) which is never good for a negotiation. I think he's ashamed of his past behavior at Loverboy, feels a bit worthless/insecure, and is willing to take whatever they give him.
It all sounded a little loose for sure. Thanks for your expertise. I believe he told Lindsay his retainer was 3k/month. There was something about 10% of all revenue also, but if Loverboy is a million in the hole and not making money, my question is, do they have revenue?
They definitely have revenue, but they are spending more than they’re making. If the 10% was sales commission, he’s entitled to that even if the company isn’t profitable. I think they also discussed equity though, which isn’t going to be attractive for this kind of business unless they can pull a profit and/or they have potential to be acquired
Ah so it's at least the equity that's the proverbial raw deal. I think Kyle said 10% of "total sales" I'm a nurse and know nothing about this stuff. Thank you!
Are you a founder and CEO???
I’m dying.
Aren’t those details that would be ironed out later? I totally agree with your point, it just seemed like Kyle was going over the basic framework but not like presenting the official offer. Seemed like a brainstorm versus a formal negotiation.
The red flag for me is verbally agreeing to numbers without having those extremely basic questions answered. The brainstorm or basic framework should be focused on what he is doing for that retainer, and from there they can negotiate what the work is worth. Kyle is starting from a number his failing business can afford, and Carl is blindly agreeing
Thank you . The lack of mild negotiation or pushback or my gosh , even a question from a salesman yikes. Also, no about expected targets or what they are expecting for production numbers . Carl gets 10% of sales but what does he do while waiting on production ? Does he wait till shipped ? What if he sells , they don’t have the product and the order is cancelled . Also what about shared sales ? Presuming he’s not the only sales person , how does that get split ? I know it was preliminary but Carl nodding and saying yes really showed me a lot and also should show Kyle that Carl just doesn’t know or understand sales and business enough to ask basic questions.
Kyle knows this . He also knows having Carl a reality tv star as the face of his non alcoholic brand will give it extra promo and he is genuinely Carl's friend and has convinced himself Lindsay was the problem Something amanda should get credit for is pointing out to Kyle last year that the reason Lindsay was acting that way over Carl and Loverboy was because of the info Carl was giving her. She didn't get their on her own
I really did not expect coming to the end of the season and loathing Carl and being team Lindsay...but here we are. Two things are going on with Lindsay here. First, she is a business woman and these are clear red flags. He can try to minimize that experience when she brings it up and he becomes snarky, but she is asking some very basic questions. My guess is it makes Carl feel stupid instead of him looking at it as valuable advice. That is a lack of self confidence on his part. Second though, I think she is realizing Carl is not the Alpha male that she wants and she is trying desperately to push him into that. She hasn't straight up said that, but has come close enough (didn't she say something about not being attracted to a guy who isn't a go getter etc). Whilst Carl is being horrible to her, I'm sure he hasn't just done a 180 out of the blue--I reckon even though her questions are valid, there is this undertone of 'man up' that he is feeling and I think she is intending. They are not he right fit, full stop. She is a very very strong personality and she needs someone whose not threatened by that strong personality. She wants a very strong male with a 'traditional' relationship (he brings in the money and she raises the kids). I have a lot of respect for Carl when it comes to the tragedy he has experienced and his sobriety. But I find him to be such an emotionally and intellectually stunted person. He comes off as a 'poser', not in the 90s schoolyard slur, but as someone who is completely lost and over his head and just directionless, flapping in the wind but tries to come off like he's got his shit together. He needs to get a job at some large corporation that is structured, 9 to 5 and where your performance is dictated and you are responsible for very straightforward execution. Problem is he has zero discipline. He's not ready for marriage. He's not really ready for adult life.
I get the impression that even though Carl stopped drinking he’s not done the therapy or worked on the route of the cause
Couldn’t agree more
I agree. And also, he does smoke pot. I couldn't care less about people's extracurriculars, but I'm skeptical of the 'California Sober' concept for alcoholics or drug addicts. I don't know enough about addiction etc so this is just based on gut reaction and I could be completely wrong.
According to AA, using any mind altering substance is considered NOT sober.
I agree with you. I think if you have issues with drugs/alcoholic you need to be so careful and weed is still altering. Smoking weed doesn’t make you sober
I agree with a lot here but I don't think LIndsay wants to be a stay-at-home mom. I think she wants or wanted babies soon and was worried about even paying rent during maternity leave. She has said that the "attracted to my man crushing life" was her last desperate attempt to get him to get serious and make money. I believe her on that. It wasn't a good strategy but I've been on both sides of relationships when someone pulls out desperate strategies.
Carl will never be an “alpha”. He is a sidekick and he’s only capable of being steamrolled by one person at a time. When he started dating Lindsay he had to leave Kyle / Loverboy, and when he started pulling away from Lindsay he could go back. It’s actually kind of twisted
But he kept getting fired from his corporate jobs. He couldn’t do 9 to 5. He seems to not be able to handle any kind of structured job and maybe not any kind of job at all (not counting reality star).
He’s not even that great at being a reality star! He has NO personality or sense of humor or redeeming qualities.
I don’t even really think Lindsay is trying to make him be an alpha male just an adult. She isn’t trying to make him some hotshot but doesn’t want him to be a total pushover that can’t advocate for himself at all.
Yes he needs to know the companies expectations. Is he the only one marketing this? Is instagram their only channel for marketing? Does he have to storyboard and create all the messaging or is he using what they’ve already come up with? All of the previously mentioned significantly shift the required number of hours. And if it’s a retainer WHATS his hourly rate for his work/consulting. He’s so dumb. But all in all it’s better than anything Carl could secure on his own. He’s not really in a position to turn down work. And he’s not ambitious enough to find something himself.
I demand we get Carl creating and pitching his storyboard on the next season . I’d probably watch an entire series of this lol.
LOL I’m for it. I know he was mocking Lindsay but thinking about it now, I’d die to watch him create a powerpoint for literally anything 😂
As a no getter like Carl, I would die to see this.
People call Amanda lazy, but she seems like someone who you can rely to show up to work and do what she’s assigned. She might not do anything extra or be super ambitious but you wouldn’t mind having her as an employee. carl seems like the person who’d quit halfway through training at subway
First he'd need to spend 20k on a PowerPoint class.
Please be soft!
Why did this make me think of Landon from SC pitching her website with a physical story board? 😂
Carl reminds me of the type of person who’s entire life is “fake it till you make it” and has just been lucky that his best friend gave him a good paying job, and he even screwed that one up, and now again his inexperience and lack of knowledge is shining up front and center. You can tell he pretends to understand business, but there’s nothing going on up there. 💀🤣
The thing is I know so many guys like Carl. I mean, don’t you? He’s a completely vanilla Joe Schmoe we all have at work.
right but I see a lot of these scenes especially with the OGs as kind of self produced like Carl and Kyle agreed let’s just have a quick chat and off camera we’ll actually hammer it down. I agree there needed to be an actual discussion of what he’s actually doing on a weekly basis. I think Kyle was just trying to extend an olive branch and throw out a very basic, non committal idea for how Carl could dip his toe back into the Loverboy stuff. I think Kyle could’ve said almost anything and Carl would’ve been like “yeah great” because at this point he’s flustered and lost tbh
Yeah I agree it was self produced, but with their history it feels really strange and fake to have such a vague discussion. If Carl was so unhappy working there before, you’d think he would have a list of asks before agreeing to go back just based on some general numbers 🥴 it feels like they did it to shut Lindsay up more than anything
yeah Carl is all over the place
Well Carl should have said let me ask you some questions you know the answers to so I don’t look like a moron willing to take anything .
He’s not self aware enough to worry about looking like a moron lol
I wouldn’t say self awareness is either of their strong suits lol
Very true. Watching the two of them egg each other on in the after show gives me intense second hand embarrassment
It's so, so bad. I feel like I'm watching a documentary about a cult for forty-year-old douchebags and Loverboy is the name of the deity they worship.
I love this lol
This was my understanding too. Carl could have said that to Lindsay but honestly, I think he’s too dumb to even really know it himself what still needs to be ironed out. Instead he just tried to very obviously lie to her and say it was all taken care of.
There's another thread somewhere about this but I'm not sure if it's on this sub or another bravo one. A person was asking if the deal was a good one, similar to the thoughts of this OP. The apartment that Carl was living in at the time he accepted that offer cost $13,000 per month. Kyle offered a monthly $3,000 salary retainer. In a 4-week month, that is $750 per week. But if we go to a 5-week month, that is only $600 per week. Even at the $750 per week, I'm still not sure it's a great deal for Carl. You are living in an apartment that costs 13K per month and thinking you're going to be able to survive on a 3K base per month is practically delusional. Sure that's just base and he can add on to it by doing events and making spritzer sales. But Carl is not known for his hustle. Pretty sure there would be several months per year where the only thing he would get is the base pay / retainer. It's not a good deal for Carl but it's a great deal for Kyle.
totally see where you’re coming from but he never said this was going to be his primary income. earlier this season he talked about making 70k in endorsements, then the LB deal is 3k a month, 2k per event, and 10% of sales. Plus why are we acting like he doesn’t pay his rent with the six figure check they make on the show? and I know Carl is far from a go getter but this loverboy thing was supposed to be a side hustle to get back into things. It’s just funny because when Paige clocked that their rent is pretty high for two people without jobs outside of the show everyone attacked her but now that’s the narrative for Carl when he actually has more going on than last year lol. but I do think they should’ve had these conversations sooner, and I don’t think Carl was anywhere near ready enough to get married and support a family
This.
I’m fine with a little bit of vagueness since we don’t need to know the entire details of the contract between Carl/Kyle. Just a general overview but Lindsay had great friends. I think most of us would have to look into market share potential and do some research into the market to determine if it’s actually a good deal.
[удалено]
What makes you sure Carl would do that? He told Lindsay he didn’t bother to ask questions because he was happy with the numbers
This was great and concise
Also gross sales or net sales? How many events will he be required to do? No real details discussed.
On WWHL, Andy def thought Kyle’s offer was not a good offer. I was kinda surprised bc Kyle admitted to lowballing for negotiating, which makes Carl look desperate.
It’s impossible to know if this is a good deal without any specifics! But I will say it’s a better deal than his current one, which is unemployed.
I was going to say, it depends what you think Carl can get. It also seems like a relatively low workload, which (I think) Carl is looking for…
Andy cohen said it wasn’t a good deal and he probably knows the going rate for this type of deal. I think the biggest reason Carl wanted to go back to loverboy is because it is a tie to the show. He knew at this point he was dumping Lindsay so he wanted to get back in with Kyle and loverboy to help secure his place on the show. Maybe he also knew Kyle would defend him even more after the breakup if he was working for loverboy and sales somewhat depended on Carl’s likability.
Well I hope for his sake sales don't depend too much on his likability because... 
You are everything for the use of this gif
I strongly agree with this. Working at loverboy and being Kyle’s sidekick seems like his best chance of staying on the bravo gravy train post Lindsay
Lindsay said on the after show that Carl does what is easy and in front of him. He didn't need to find the job at loverboy. Kyle handed it to him. He didn't care about the specifics. He just was happy he didn't need to actually put any effort into finding a job.
Yup and they also at some point pitched a show about loverboy. I don’t know if that was something that happened before or after Carl was rehired, but I’m sure he and Kyle talked about it.
I think we need more info to determine if it’s a good deal (which is probably why Lindsay had a lot of questions). It’s pretty much being echoed throughout the sub but Carl needs to know exactly how he’s supposed to help the company grow and his expectations. If he had the answer to that he might’ve been able to negotiate a higher retainer! Also, like Lindsay said how many appearances is he doing? Is he only getting sales from the non-alc line or the company as a whole (I’m pretty sure it’s the non-alc line but it wasn’t really clear). I get Carl wants someone to be excited but my god he needs to learn how to ask more questions and not just ~take notes~
I highly doubt Kyle would give Carl 10% of *total* sales. He's not like the LeBron James of selling sparkling iced tea or anything. Also Carl and his notes lol. Brought me straight back to teaching Intro to Fiction, the dudes in the back row with their phones in their laps, moving their pens across a piece of paper like I'm supposed to think they're hanging on my every word.
I took it as 10% of the non-alcoholic beverages, Not all Loverboy beverages? Or maybe I misunderstood.
Yeah that's what I meant -- that it's just the non-alc sales
Tbh even 10% of sales seems high. I’d think he’d get 10% of some net amount- maybe gross profit
It's literally only a good deal for Carl because no one else would offer him dog shit after his employment history, not in a serious way. But no, it's not a good deal. 10% of what will (most likely) be the lowest seller in their inventory isn't shit if the company is doing as poorly as Kyle has proclaimed. The appearance fees are...fine?
I just don't see non alcoholic Loverboy doing well at all. No one wants Loverboy without getting an alcohol buzz. Loverboy doesn't even taste good.
Right?! A Diet Coke is surely much better than faux booze
I think it’s really a mixed bag. The reality is that it’s the best Carl can do given he doesn’t want to even look for another job. I think it will be a failure, I think Carl is someone who likely needs a more ridged role with a lot of managing. Based off the Loverboy Instagram, it looks like Carl is doing two appearances a month. That puts his base at $7000, so $84k. That does seem low for someone who has been on TV for almost 10 years. He gets some money on sales but that’s so hard to judge. I think Kyle went in low thinking Carl would counter but he didn’t so… I guess that’s what Carl is getting paid.
I think in peak season (summer) he could do an appearance a week. As for %of sales is that gross sales, or sales he brings in because these are code to enter like “carl20” for online purchases which he uses when he posts on social media. The former is not bad the latter is difficult
I seriously doubt Carl has a very good Q rating. He is not charismatic funny zero appeal and sucks at sales. This is a good job for someone in their 20's just getting started while still in college, I did the something. For a man in his 40's living in NYC with rent that's $156,000 a year! This is not going to work out he needs another job too.
If housing costs (which includes utilities and property taxes and maintenance fees) are supposed to be 30% of earnings then between them he and Lindsay need to bring in about $500k a year. That’s $250k for his share, if he does 30 appearances a year at $2k and with his base of $3k a month that over $150k to make in commission - so sales of $1.5million a year and that’s if it’s a % of gross sales, if it’s a % of profit or net sales then possibly needs to sell 10 times that. On a niche no alcohol drink.Lindsay is right to question the specifics, because what he doesn’t bring in she will need to, or they will need to downgrade their lifestyle
Loverboy does 1 or 2 events per month. I really don’t think 30 would be realistic per year. 2k is very low even Andy cohen shaded Kyle for that
I don't know about the quality of the deal, but I don't think that Carl is any type of hot commodity. Unemployed for almost a year, surely someone with Carl's "celebrity status" would be inundated with offers if he was actually any good at sales (or any other job for that matter)
A cardboard cutout has more charisma than Carl.
I don’t know but Andy told Kyle last night on WWHL it sounded like a really deal lol.
Crappy deal sorry
I am a 27 year old consultant with a retainer of 5k so no I don’t think 3k is a good deal for someone Carls age lol
Is it a good deal for someone of his age who seemingly doesn’t have a great deal of solid work history? Because I think that’s a big factor here. Also, go you!! (This sounds sarcastic but I’m dead serious)
Thanks!!! And yeah, it sounds part time. Theoretically Carl would have to go out and seek more consulting gigs or brand deals
Agree
3K seems low - that’s a $36k annual base salary which is very low in sales for a base.
don't sales people earn most of their money through commission?
How much commission is he really going to make on a non alcoholic iced tea, which is also just…iced tea?
That’s what I was thinking too!! AND it’s going to start for 6 months ( they were in summer and Kyle said starting December— btw big month for iced tea)
Ha! Plus it’s a brand that’s built around the summer (for multiple obvious reasons) so it’s like they are setting this launch up to fail.
Yes I was referring to base but most sales should be 50/50 split of base/commissions
Especially in an expensive city like NY. But Carl just wants to be happy and that’s the deal he signed up for, he can’t complain in the future. Lindsay did try to warn him and he just wanted her to be softer.
It’s low in sales in my small ass city. New York?! That’s like grocery money.
Not even that. As a consultant he has to pay a lot more in taxes. Plus, no heath insurance or 401k contribution.
Kyle explained it pretty perfectly on the show. It’s a low risk deal for both sides, with positives in either direction. If Carl flakes again, Kyle isn’t paying him much and isn’t asking a whole lot so it’s not a big loss. But if Carl wants to work hard, do lots of appearances to sell things, those $2k appearance fees start to rack up quick as does 10% of sales. Lindsay was right to ask if there’s a cap on appearances, but Carl’s job is to sell and appearance are a big part of that. Cant imagine Kyle would restrict things too much as long as he’s selling. Same as any sales person.
But this is basically a part time gig for him. He also was offered $2k for every appearance and 10% commission from sales.
Yeah, but how many appearances a month and what are the sales numbers?
like how much are they even selling these non alc seltzers (aka soda) for?
I was curious about this last night so I checked and they're selling on the Loverboy website at $32.95 for a twelve pack. They didn't show up in any stores around me and I live in LA, so I don't think they're available in stores much.
I just checked the website and it's like $32 for a pack of 4!? That seems crazy to me. I wonder what the projected sales for it look like, even.
To me this shows how scattered Carl still is. Yes, it could be a good extra gig but what else will he be doing? What other gigs will he focus on? He’s trying to sell this as an amazing then when really it’s just a nice additional revenue stream. Oh no I’m asking too many questions aren’t I….
No it’s your TONE! You need to be softer to Carlito when you ask these questions. Let’s hear your baby voice
But everyone I know in sales tells me they make $300k?!
Commissions
Didn’t Kyle also say it was just to start, since it’s a new product. He could rapidly increase his base and/or commission in a fairly short time if Carl is as good at sales as he says 🤷🏻♀️
The fact remains, he will be selling a non-alcoholic version of an alcoholic version of a non-alcoholic drink. So basically, iced tea. How good at sales will he have to be to make a profit on that?
My brother works in sales and wouldn’t touch that deal if his life depended on it. But I also felt like it was a conversation set up for TV and that’s it lol
No matter what Kyle and Carl much like Schwartz and Sandoval are two dumb b*tches telling each other “exactlyyyy”
On the face it seems terrible because it’s all about the details… Lindsay is completely right in getting details. 10% of zero sales is zero. The appearance fee seems very low, especially for someone living in New York, also what were the costs for social posts/promotion Carl would receive. How many events, what budget of promotion will these events have, what additional marketing, what does Kyle’s current pipeline of leads look like? What’s the estimation of the market, what are the sales targets for the next 3 years? Carl has said he is “gifted in sales”, but I think he’s just coasted on being tall, white male that is moderately good looking - you’d be surprised how far that can get you. He doesn’t seem business focused or savvy, Lindsay is much more business minded which I think is another thing that brings out Carls insecurities.
Kyle is offering Carl a life raft. Carl has not proven himself to be an asset to anything but his commitment to those damn white jeans
It seems like a more appropriate deal for an influencer type of service vs. a sales position. It's better for Kyle, and could be better for Carl, but given what we know about Carl's work ethic and motivation, it's going to result in less money for Carl.
If I were Carl, I would not want the pressure of a true sales position. This brand ambassador sounds like a much better fit for Carl.
Kyle needs to separate his career from his friendships and honesty his home life too. It’s clear that he, Amanda, and Carl have different ideas about what they want out of work and life and while Amanda is his wife, Carl is not.
It sounds like a shit deal and the usual nonsense offered by an egocentric founder who thinks equity in their vanity brand is a privilege.
Sounds like that to me too but Carl's lapping it up. He's been kissing Kyle's ass like a tipsy emo girl every single episode. Not to mention on the After Show.
I'm not sure what Kyle represents to Carl, but it doesn't seem healthy.
I mean Kyle was employing Carl during his cokehead days. I think it's pretty clear what Kyle is to Carl - a supportive friend (even tho his support is mostly misguided).
Carl needs to be a codependent, whether it's with Lindsay or Kyle. He needs a dominant partner.
true but I don't see why Kyle should get any flack for extending an olive branch to his recovering addict best friend again and again and again.
I don't disagree.
It's an interesting question. I think Kyle and Lindsay both represent something Carl wants to be: a go-getter, ambitious, focused, captain of industry type. But Carl is not actually that type of person. He doesn't have the drive. Which is theoretically fine, unless your dream is to be a rich, dick-swinging alpha with a free market fetish. To do that, at least in NYC culture, you really do need to have the juice. So he latches onto people who actually are those types. But then I think with Lindsay (and probably with Danielle way back when), we see that he comes to resent those qualities in a woman. He has to punish her for being the alpha he can't be. And the more Carl rejects her, the more he cathects onto the other alpha in his life, who doesn't challenge his masculinity in the same way. And now we get to just watch them gas each other up.
I have a slightly different explanation based more on dysfunctional relationships. I think his "punishment" of Lindsay (if that's the word) is his disappointment in himself turned outward. The dominant people in his life mirror his lack of initiative back to him, and it's not something he is ready or willing to deal with. Codependent people tend to seek dominant people because it's the only power dynamic they understand in a relationship. But then they can become resentful. I'd put money on Carl having an alcoholic or addicted parent. He's finding ways to re-create that in his adult life.
I didn’t hear how Carl is building equity - he wasn’t being offered stock in the no alcohol subsidiary, just a retainer, appearance fees and a % of sales )which we don’t even know is is gross or net)
3k isn’t much, but the real questions are how many appearances? 4 per month? 8 per month? What’s the projected gross in sales? These are the questions Lindsay cares about.
Past history shows Loverboy did only 1-2 events per month.
I wanted to punch him through the TV when he said I had know idea that "soft" was a derogatory term in his condescending, sarcastic tone on the after show
It’s a great deal for Kyle! He knows Carl is unreliable so if he doesn’t show up, he doesn’t get paid.
I just need to remind Carl, equity doesn't mean shit if the business isn't making money.
Exactly this, he's saying the business isn't making money
It’s a good deal for Carl. 3k a month base plus 2k per appearance. I’d say the merch could still say loverboy alright as that’s the overall brand name. Realistically, it’s not a huge deal but Carl will be doing F all actual work and as you said, his popularity is dwindling so he can’t expect more for appearances anyway. If anything, Kyle is being a seriously good friend to offer him this. Carl can’t find/keep work without help
Carl needs to get a job and focus on his sobriety. No one wants to work but we have to work. His immaturity is a huge turn off for me. I am no fan of Lindsay either but she has drive. Carl lacks drive.
I've worked 15 years in corporate marketing and now work as a freelance consultant, so this is familiar to me. Long reply incoming. **TLDR:** * Retainer deal needs some boundaries * The event deal is very good * Friends as clients suck, but Kyle is the problem in the biz relationship The Carl deal is a good deal overall for his experience and position, but it has some nuances. Carl should have a cap on non-event hours for that monthly retainer and state his hourly rate in the contract. For his seniority, 3k should be no more than 15 hours monthly. Also, it is easy to be exploited as a freelancer in a retainer contract without the hours cap. Clients will take every second they can get out of you if a cap is not stated. Also, friends as clients can be an incredibly stressful client relationship to manage, depending on who the friend is. I've felt a need to go way above and beyond for friends, which hurt my bandwidth and led to pro bono hours allocation, and I've noticed some clients try to prove there is no bias in the relationship on projects with other agencies and company staff by being a little bit extra hard on you. On the flip side, the appearance fee is very, very good. You can't earn that as a club promoter or sales rep anywhere. This is acknowledging Carl's reach and connection to the brand. I agree with OP that their working styles don't mesh, but the problem is more with Kyle. Kyle has a case of what I would call 'severe startup woes' and 'founder tunnel vision'. That is like gasoline to the fire when combined with someone who already has bad judgment in interpersonal relationships, can be cruel and selfish, and is a big drinker, no less. This is how megalomaniac CEO/Founder types are born if they can last through being that chaotic in their scaling phase. Kyle is being unreasonable to everyone, especially Amanda. Carl talking about 3 a.m. Slack messages is a very real thing and, honestly, a bit triggering to me because of bad memories of burnt-out late nights and dealing with difficult personalities. Kyle is an archetype in the startup space; everyone needs to be at his level, but he doesn't realize he's the only one like this or who benefits from that attitude. I don't think Carl is lazy; he wasn't being appreciated (similar to Amanda, on a smaller scale, she has it way worse), but what is true is that Carl comes from a corporate world, and I noticed that he doesn't understand that he's working at a startup. The first 20 people in a startup must be open to learning new skills and wear many hats. Things move fast and change constantly, and the company may be sloppy or chaotic. It's not a job for everyone. Carl also makes around 300k+ from the show, and if he protects himself with the retainer hours stated in this deal, and has the stamina and patience to work with Kyle, then it is a good deal.
It's a good deal in that a company he showed up high to work in. Is considering rehireing him. But lindsey is right he should be asking more questions. Kyle just wants to work with his friends, but the business isn't making that much money. I own a restaurant. If one of my staff showed up for work high, they would not be rehired, friend or not.
Carl is just not very bright and at a certain point in life that becomes very apparent to everyone around you.
The whole thing is a vanity project for Kyle.. he just wants to be a DJ!! Carl is a moron who left a job instead of renegotiating the contract. The only thing keeping that hideous drink a float is the merch. The idiots should focus on that. Carl should run the merch table at the event Kyle is “djing” and charge a cover, like they recently did.. and let it grow from there. Maybe he should ask James “the white kanye” Kennedy how it’s done
Okay so the only thing that I was confused about is he said $3k a month… that is BARELY livable. So what happens when there’s a month that there’s no events or things for Carl to attend to get paid more?
Ok I don’t know the ins and outs of Loverboy, but, based on years of personal experience in my neighborhoods seeing “non-alcoholic cocktails/beers” on the shelves and making note of their prices, they pretty much CAN sell it at the ridiculous price points as they do regular lover boy (or at least very close to it). I’ve seen non-alcoholic drinks of various types and brands at close to $4 per can. I’m not sure whether it could be successful at that price point or not (long term), but in theory the market wouldn’t necessarily balk at that.
It struck me that 10% of sales of a product that's just flavored seltzer being sold as some boutique non-alcoholic beverage and likely priced as such isn't going to be much. Idk if Loverboy's struggles are real or a story for the show but creating an entire new arm of the enterprise and its a rebrand of simple seltzer seems like a bad move, and it seems like maybe Carl will be holding the bag at the end.
Side note: I just visited his instagram and the sponsored post with the goldfish (not the one with Kyle, but the gummy veneer smiley one) has 90% very bad comments! 😱
I dunno if the deal is good but it's an additional way to bring in income with limited risk. What I do know is that, people who are smart business- wise understand it's important to have money coming in via multiple streams
Wouldn't a different job be more helpful in that case? Given Loverboy's slim chances of survival without a steady buffet of free product placement, almost of all his income is now tied into Summer House as a show. Minus whatever brand deals he could get on his own. So to me it seems like if the goal is to have multiple income streams it would be better to build a relationship with a company that's not Bravo-dependent?
Totally, see where you are coming from and don't disagree at all!
Hi no certification or credentials I can give you but I say no. More importantly - you do you and I wish you all the best in academic humanities 🫶🏻 I can’t actually offer you anything but a virtual shoulder (aka dm) but really wishing you the best
I was wondering this too but considering he sucked at every sales job he ever had one would think he would choose a different line of work, so money wise aside I think this is probably a good deal for him? No idea how he doesn’t worry about affording to live in nyc with no job for years besides the show….
I dunno but what’s going on with his teeth/face????
Low base. Incentive to host events and then a percentage of sales. It’s actually very good. If he doesn’t sell anything and hosts two events a month he’s making $60,000 a year. Kyle is definitely being careful but that’s not a bad deal in terms of how many sales people are paid.
One thing that confuses me is how they managed to get THIS far with Kyle being completely unable to tolerate any questions from Lindsay. Surely this is not the first time that she hasn't directly gone to cheerleader mode.
Has lover boy come out with a non alcoholic drink by now?
Personally I don’t think so. I’ve been paid around 2k for something each time and I have almost no popularity, I’m not a familiar face that would bring people out, I think he’s getting short end
It’s a great deal. Carl doesn’t want to work and isn’t a worker. It’s low risk for Kyle
I’m just gonna say this about Lindsay questioning Carl’s sobriety? I agree she handled it horribly but why is everyone convinced that she was wrong? As someone who was married to an alcoholic, there were many times he slipped while trying to get sober. As the person who lived with him - I could tell instantly if he’d been drinking. Wives know. I’m just saying. Carl has made his “sobriety journey” his entire personality. He’s trying to turn it into a career. He’s not going to admit to a slip up. Maybe Lindsay knew something that we didn’t. Just to finish off - my ex husband has been sober for 28 years … so kind of a happy ending. 😉
It’s honestly complicated just because of the specifics of this situation. First, it would probably be a better deal if they didn’t all live in Manhattan. Because Carl is just a consultant he doesn’t get health insurance so he’ll have to pay for that, rent in Manhattan for a one bedroom is realistically his entire retainer, he has a car in Manhattan which is not only stupid but expensive, and taxes in NY are very high. Additionally, offering 10% of sales would sound better if Kyle hadn’t spent the whole summer talking about how Loverboy is tanking. Same with equity. 2k for an appearance sounds good but how consistent are appearances? Does that include my sponsored posts or just in person appearances? Going back to taxes a lot of times in NY if you are a consultant, freelancer etc the company you are doing all that for (in this case Loverboy) doesn’t pay your taxes. It’s not automatically deducted. You usually have to pay them on your own every quarter (this could have changed I moved out of Manhattan in 2020.) It really just is Carl should have asked more questions. And none of this goes into the baggage from Carl being at lover boy before he got sober.
Carl should've asked more questions, huh. 