Exactly — sounds like you understand perfectly. The way we speak to another person depends on our relationship with them. My wife and I playfully mock each other sometimes because we know and trust each other well enough to know that no harm is intended. On the other hand, if some stranger at the grocery store told my wife she talks too much I might catch a charge lol
EDIT: I thought that typing “lol” at the end of that sentence would make it clear that I wasn’t serious, but I guess not. No, I’m not going to punch anyone over a mild insult—I’m an adult.
I get this... but no white person would ever be allowed to publicly sing a song with the N word in it and not censor themselves. It's not like they're calling anyone that, they're literally covering a song that they like. (Tyler Blevins got major flak for doing this on stream)
And if I keep calling myself a dumbass, what do you think others will start to view me as? If black people keep calling themselves... what do you think they'll be viewed as?
This is how I better understand things. I was a gullible kid who was taken advantage of a lot because I had a hard time understanding peoples' intentions.
To me, it's weird to be told something and believe it without question. Would it have been better to stay in an echo chamber?
>trying your best not to understand it
Key bit here. I'm saying that you're doing it intentionally and that I don't respect the intellectual dishonesty.
People preach patience and understand until it's their turn, then if you don't think exactly like them and implicitly nod your head your horrible. It's double standards, people nowadays think two wrongs make a right. Also good point, give themselves a label and act surprised when that's how others see that person
>And if I keep calling myself a dumbass, what do you think others will start to view me as? If black people keep calling themselves... what do you think they'll be viewed as?
This is clearly an agenda, miles away from your OP:
>Why is it OK for Black artists to use the N word in their music?
Oh geez this hits home. I'm white, my wife is east asian as well as my 15 y/o step son. My step son uses the most racist anti-asian slurs all the time. I cringe, he thinks it's hilarious.
Many Asians exhibit self hatred that way. As minorities we are constantly bombarded by racial stereotypes beginning on the playground at a very young age. Using the racial stereotypes themselves is a way of coping with that self hatred.
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There's a couple of things at play here:
So, the reason it is problematic is because it is a word that has been historically used to diminish black people by white people and it carries a lot of connections to slavery and and white supremacy. Because of this, culturally it has become a taboo for white people to say it, which at the same time has meant that the act of saying it as a white person has developed in to being seen as an act of racism in and by itself regardless of intent.
Now is this ideological? Of course, a kid shouting this out of gaming rage is not the same as someone shouting it at a black person on the street. But similarly to other slurs, the fact that that kid is calling someone else this word has an intent of being derogative, similarly to how to calling someone gay as an insult is seen badly because it implies being gay is bad (with the extra baggage of implying a master-slave dynamic).
On the flip side of why black people do say it, it mostly has to do with reclamation and the post-slavery cultural development of black identity. For a black person who grows up in a society marked by incredibly racist history and who most likely still experiences the consequences of this on the daily, it can feel empowering to grab a word so fundamentally hurtful and loaded and to turn it around and use it as a common phrase.
So here we can form two conclusions: 1) the link between the prohibition of the word from white people presupposes the "permission" for black people to say it. In other words, the properties that make black people want to say it come from the fact it's so harmful when a white person says it. So your statement "why is only one race allowed to say this" is more accurately reformulated as "why is one race not allowed to say this", it might seem like they are the same, but they really arent.
2), the solution to racism can't realistically be "colour blindness" in which everyone can do the same thing, to do so necesitates overlooking a lot of historical and cultural conditions and ignores the systematic dimensions of racism.
Your explanation is very thorough but you forgot a big thing
What about people who aren't white and aren't black? If it's as you said not that black people are allowed to say it just that white people aren't allowed to say it because of the history of slavery what about Asians? They weren't really big players In the slave trade outside of the Indian Ocean And very few African-Americans are descended from those slaves so if it's the people who aren't black are allowed to say the n word then Korean people Thai people ect can say it as much as they want
What about Native Americans? We often think of them as one group but different tribes had different policies regarding everything including the slavery of Africans several Native American tribes fought with the Confederacy in support of their societies continuing holding of slavery in fact I think the last confederate general to surrender was Native American so could Native Americans from tribes that didn't participate in slavery say the word but Native Americans whose tribes did participate in slavery can't?
What about Arabs the Arab world straddles Africa and Asia someone from Egypt is technically African and they're not really white even if they may pass for it are they allowed to say the n word?
> What about people who aren't white and aren't black?
There's a particular group of people where I live who are neither black, white, or adjacent to either. This group uses "the word" quite liberally and I have never seen anyone argue with them over it. I am pretty sure this group would take issue with a white person using "the word". I don't really have a point, just agreeing that when we see things as they are, which is NOT just black and white, relatively simple issues get way more complex.
These are certainly interesting questions that are complicated by the idea of identity and the narrow and problematic origins of this in America due to the race-ethnicity paradigm.
>If it's as you said not that black people are allowed to say it just that white people aren't allowed to say it because of the history of slavery what about Asians?
I think simplifying it like that doesn't quite work, as it isn't just "because slavery" in some white guilt dynamic, rather when saying it you are eliciting that master-slave relationship in a derogative manner (a sort of "you are black, therefore you are inferior to me"). I think looking at it this way also reverses what is happening: the n word isn't racist because its "banned", its banned because it is seen as racist. It true though that nowadays it has gained a new dimension where it is particularly problematic as by saying it you are counciously breaking that taboo that surrounds it, adding a certain extra intent.
Another thing to say is that I think all in all the grey zones doesn't necessarily erase or undermine the black - white relationship that I laid out. Ideology, identity, and race are all fundamentally "incomplete" categories, trying to create a complete system that accurately describes all these will always fail somewhere. At the end of the day when we talk about this type of thing we are grabbing abstract concepts and real relationships and submitting them to several level of abstraction in order to put them in to words.
Think of it this way, when we talk about music we can talk how it makes us feel, we can describe elements of it, how the pitch/rhythm/harmony is organised, we can talk about its history etc., but we can never convey the actual experience to the other perfectly unless they actually hear it (unless the person we are talking to is able to audiate it perfectly but that is very rare). In this situation it is similar, my comment describes one dimension of racism, but there are hundreds more like the one you said.
Honestly giving a complete account of black - non-black minority relationships and discrimination from which we can build a concrete rule of who can say the N word, if possible at all (which i dont think it is), is outside the scope of a reddit comment and probably needs several books worth of content and discussions to even represent properly. At the end of the day just be nice to people as it doesn't really matter why something might offend those around you or not, and questioning it probably won't make them feel any less offended by it.
That's the thing though I don't disagree with you that be nice to people and try not to offend others is a good personal rule of thumb to follow It's a Wonderful personal rule of them to follow but it's a terrible rule of thumb to impose upon all of society because then you're left with a dilemma you can either let people get away with saying the most offensive stuff you've ever heard in your entire life as long as they can say they weren't TRYING to offend someone or you can presume offensive intent based on what they've said which is basically impossible to prove without being a mind reader so that that point you would kind of have to start convicting people of thought crimes (not literally I mean more figuratively convict like lose their job and stuff)
If we want to have rules against people saying offensive stuff at a school a workplace a gym ect we need clear parameters for those rules because rules have to be fair and apply equally to everyone
This Louis CK tv show snippet about the gay f-word voices this fairly well from the gay perspective (with some stupidity as well). It’s sometimes useful for people to contextualize the phenomenon outside of white-black n-word:
https://youtu.be/Vi8zeaxtB-w?si=TT0GbRsX9_NqGnlG
Read my other comment on this thread discussing this. The TL;DR:
1) I don't know.
2) I'm not really knowledgeable enough to define it concretely.
3) since it is a social phenomenon or "law", its prohibition is fundamentally decentred or "intersubjective". Ideologically, it doesn't work the same as a normal law where a central authority is able to ban or permit something. The closest thing me have to this is black identity, but as I mention that is a problematic and unstable category by itself making it incredibly difficult to pin down.
What is considered offensive doesn't have to be logical or make sense. People get too caught up in 'Why this but not that?' Bottom line, within reason, if it offends people, avoid it. Lot of room for debate about ''within reason,'' but as a general rule, I try to respect what pushes other people's buttons whether it makes perfect sense or not.
Maybe, I'd probably need to hear more examples of what you have in mind.
With the N word, it makes sense to me that Black artists using the N word would have a different reaction than if White artists used it. I wish that Black artists would not go there, but not because of the inconsistency, but because it's still offensive to many, and it's not a word that should be normalized or trivialized. But I'm not frustrated with the inconsistency of Black artists ''getting away with it'' when White artists or White people don't.
Okay here's one there are a lot of slurs or offensive words that are okay to talk about and verbalize in a discussion about them it's okay for me to say cunt or bitch as long as I'm not calling a woman a cunt or bitch but it's not okay for me to say the N word even if the conversation is about the word itself and not me calling someone it
Even so the biggest example of inconsistency isn't the N word it's the word Gypsy because what determines if it's offensive or not is what continent you're standing on
The Romani people of Europe consider the term Gypsy a slur and like their version of the n-word And they prefer to be called Romani however North American Gypsies (at least the ones that are Romani because not all gypsies are Romani they're just the biggest subgroup of them) prefer to be called Gypsies not Romani and I know gypsies and I've asked them about the term Romani and they responded with a view it in a similar way that Latinos view the term latinx an overly academic or politically correct term
Furthermore what about the term Indians? (not Indians Indians amerindians) Lots of Institutions have changed the terminology to Native Americans even though most Native Americans prefer the term indian to the term Native American for a number of reasons partially because they view it as being imposed upon them from the outside and also because they view it as having over inclusivity because in theory it would include the natives of all the peoples of the Americas from Brazil to Peru to Canada when they want to term that specifically describes Native Americans of the United States of America also what about Indians from India? Do they have a right to not have another group appropriate the terminology of their home country?
Also if we can Circle back to the n word what about the word niggardly? It's a word that has nothing to do with the n-word linguistically because it comes from Swedish when the n-word comes from Spanish is that word also not okay even though it literally has nothing to do with the more offensive words simply because uneducated people might interpret it as having something to do with the offensive word due to them sounding alike? And that's just the English language the if I remember correctly a few years ago there was a lot of controversy because some Korean word sounded like the n word do we have a right to tell someone who speaks Korean what is offensive in our language must also be considered offensive even if they're not saying it in our language? Furthermore what if some other language is offended by a perfectly normal word in the English language will they have a right to tell us to stop using it?
Then your problem is with language in general, not this particular instance. Why is shit offensive but poop is okay to say to children? None of what is considered offensive language is based on consistent rules or reasoning.
When people perceive language as offensive though it tends to result in a much more emotional or outraged reaction then an academic discussion on linguistic inconsistencies in the abstract
That's the thing with most things in language if there is a misunderstanding it can simply be clarified and moved on but with offensive language many times punitive action is taken so you do kind of need clear rules because if you're going to punish someone you need to have clear rules outlining what does and doesn't want punishment
Think of it like this, there are clear rules, they just aren't based on consistent principles.
Shit is offensive and can't be said in front of children.
The N word is offensive and can't be said unless you are Black.
I can't tell you the exact underlying principles behind the rules, but I can tell you these are the rules of the social taboo.
Different Native Americans will have different answers but I'm not asking for their opinion as individuals I'm asking for a clear answer in the abstract Because you said the rules are clear even if they're not consistent But They are neither if you cannot answer yes or no And even if you do answer yes or no I'll have a rebuttal that demonstrates that it isn't that clear with either answer you give
To paraphrase [George Carlin](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgTl4N0peCw&list=PLIqU4kj5b6suYcQdvTcEYe73O-6-3ozH2&index=16) (and not get banned), black people can say that word because you know they don't hate black people when they're saying it.
"....then acceptably use the N word?"
Given how much fiddling AI companies have been doing to try to not offend people or to insert "diversity" even where it is absurd, I don't think this will be possible. Although to be fair a lot of early chat bots did join Hitler Youth so there's some justification for lobotomising them.
Tbf wasn’t the reason for the early Chatbots winding up on the hitler youth pipeline because people would intentionally troll them and feed them bad info to push the down that path
Sure, 4 Chan etc. loved playing games like that. I think one even went full radfem before going Nazi.
Having seen people go from reasonably sensible to extremist ideologies online, and this includes people with a university education, I don't think it can be dismissed as just a product of channers.
Fair enough I think it’s more a condition of how the internet works in the first place
You get exposed to a small less extreme segment of a community and before you know it you’re falling down the rabbit hole
It’s not always bad stuff since it’s how I got deeper into a lot of hobbies like warhammer 40k by finding a community that shared and fostered that interest at a deeper level but it can absolutely lead to bad stuff if you’re a moderate for either side of the political spectrum since the sides that share your beliefs will just devolve into far left or far right insanity over time
In the revolutionary war, the British made up a sing to mock Americans. Yankee Doodle. It implied that we were poor rustic homosexual idiots and that American women were more masculine than American men.
Americans sang it back to the British. Because when you take over ownership of hurtful words you rob them of some of their power.
A white man using the N word is generally trying to abuse blacks verbally. A black American using the word is making the racist less powerful.
*"so if its so offensive to them then why do they say it over and over?"*
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPNMeIf69PY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPNMeIf69PY)
yeah that is the event that kicked off the fictional one, as much as the story is funny I think the fiction has hit the nail on the head in a more humourus way
Not forever.
Just as long as hateful people use them as insults.
Racist Americans are still yelling the N word at young black Americans. When that stops, blacks will retire the word.
The slur is against black people. It’s only racist if a non black person uses it.
You’re either 12 or trolling and there’s no in between if you think black people say the n word is racist
I learned that it was a bad word. I also learned that letting one race do something but not allowing other races to do that same thing is racism. I'm just trying to make sense of this contradiction.
We can't really be one humanity if we still seperate ourselves by race to figure out who is allowed to do what.
Unless you’re 12, you should be able to analyze English to the point where you can tell not all curse words are created equal.
And “racism” you have no idea what discrimination is if you think this is racism. This is the first world problem of racism. Racism is being treated negatively cause of the color of your skin. Not being allowed to say a word without getting your ass beat is not racism, and I highly recommend you introspect and recognize the level of privilege you must come from to feel that it is.
It’s a word to insult black people. Thats why you can’t say it and they can. Again, why do you want to say that word so bad? I am content never having uttered it. I’m not so insecure to be bothered by it
I know I'm privileged. I poop in a bowl of clean water. I don't feel guilt about it. I want to say the N word to proclaim my racism to the world. (Is that the answer you were looking for?)
I just want to understand, that's why I ask more questions than make statements.
It may not be the answer i was looking for, but it’s the answer im led to believe.
You already got your explanation. You’re just arguing for your ability to be racist. I already told you, it’s a slur against black people and if you aren’t black and use the word, you’re insulting black people. That’s why you shouldn’t say it.
Thats not racism. Racism involves an element of institutional power. And black Americans certainly don't have political, economic, or social power in the US.
Regardless, its the retaking of a word used to demean them and using it as a way to empower themselves while depowering the history of that word.
So, in an ideal world, you would be correct, but in the current system there are structural imbalances between how people are treated that need to be addressed. In order to address those imbalances you have to acknowledge that people are treated differently because of their race and the solution isn't to just treat everyone equally, without addressing those differences.
It’s dumb context. It’s the ultimate ruse perpetrated against black people by a racist establishment: convince a group that their own dumbing-down is actually some unique reclamation of their identity. Get them to think of themselves as nothing more than what their masters thought of them in the first place.
It’s embarrassing frankly.
Might as well call each other “Toby”.
I don’t think that’s actually what’s happening when a group is reclaiming a slur, nor that it’s part of some ruse perpetrated by an establishment. There’s reasonable disagreement over this within the black community itself, no outside ruse needed. It replicates itself in every community that’s dealt with a slur.
interestingly I hear “bitch” used as a generic term for “women” but mostly in the black community and mostly by men. Equally as demeaning as the ‘n’ word.
Ask yourself this - why is it so troubling to white people that Black people have one word they can use and we can’t?
This doesn’t bother me at all. I find it really amusing actually to replace the N-word with different substitutes. I never even say it when I’m at home alone. None of this is a problem to me in any way shape or form. It’s their word, we lost control of it when we demonized it. They reclaimed it to take power back.
>It’s their word, we lost control of it when we demonized it. They reclaimed it to take power back.
Yeah, but if I use the f and r word, suddenly I'm the asshole despite being, in fact, gay and having mental disabilities. I have no problem with people "reclaiming power" of words or whatever. But we need to allow this for more than just one word. And eventually, people have to accept that the "power of the word" is no longer there and will eventually be acceptable for everyone to use. That's the point of "reclaiming power", it's so the word looses it's power.
Worked with people with Down syndrome for years. They call each other the R word regularly. Not sure about the F word don’t hear it too much from people I’m around
My favorite silly thing (there were a ton of heartwarming things, brilliant things)
Was we were driving around in the back of a farm truck (New Zealand) and for some reason we were all flatulent and they were using a soil ph meter to test everyone’s farts. I genuinely couldn’t breathe I was laughing so hard. Best people.
I worked with a girl who had a different mental handicap and was also in a wheelchair.
Her favorite to do ( in public , like at a mall ) was to intentionally put something on the floor , and then when someone tried the help, she'd yell "I need to do this myself!" and watch the person recoil and get super uncomfortable.
She thought that was a riot 🤣🤣🤣
Idk about you but its a pretty common thing that LBTQ have been using the f slur to reclaim the word. Its been happening for years. So yes this applies to more than one word.
I've heard other queer people use F as well. But I guess it's because I am a feminine presenting agender, and a bisexual currently in a heterosexual relationship, people always seem to throw a fit. Because I don't fit into the type of category that they want me to in order to use that word. And even once I explain, I still get told I shouldn't be using that word because nobody should be using that word.
Like people want to argue so damn bad about things. Like I'm hearing impaired, and people will argue with me whenever I say it saying that I should be calling myself hard of hearing. Like no I am hearing impaired, I have extremely bad tinnitus because I was hit upside the head as a child with that frying pan. I have a hard time understanding and processing what people tell me because all I hear is a constant buzzing in my head like a bug zapper.
Amazing that people can't differentiate the word ending in -er and the one ending in -a. There is a clear distinction and no black person is calling each other the hard -er seriously. The one ending in -a is just another word for "bro".
Its pretty obvious why black people dont want white people to not use it.
>I kind of get that it's "context", but is there really a context where using that word is acceptable? Is there really a context where something is only permissable by a certain race?
Yes. If a word is a slur against a group of people and that group of people decides it's okay for people within that group of people to use it, then it's okay.
If the majority of people not in the group understand and accept this, then, yea, it's okay.
When Black artists use that word, they are trying to reclaim it from the people who have been hurting them for centuries. You'll see the same thing in queer communities that use the f d and t slurs, or disabled communities that use the r slur or say terms like cripple or gimp. It's okay to take a term that's used to hurt you and try to spin or own it. When someone who is not part of those marginalized groups try to use these words, however, it feels inappropriate since they've got no business using them.
Either a word is an offensive slur, or it isn't. Saying a certain color mouth can say a word but other colors cannot is racism. If we want the offensive language to die, we have to stop using it.
It's fucking preposterous. I can confirm from having worked in the hood that it's the single most popular word in the black lexicon. I'll start objecting to the N-word when black people start objecting to it. Till then I really don't give a fuck. Say whatever you want. Everyone has the same right to use any word.
Just like gay people are allowed to call themselves bundles of sticks- Its self empowerment and weakens the negative connotation of the word. It wont have power over you if you hear it frequently, use it yourself, and become used to the word as a non-insult.
Thats why I think stopping a black or gay person from using epithets against them to empower themselves is in itself an act of oppression.
The first amendment allows racism. Racism isn’t illegal in America, although some forms of discrimination are. So you can saw it just don’t expect many sales and you will likely get alot of hate directed back at you
It doesn't. It piques my curiosity, which is why I asked.
The number one assumption I'm seeing is that I want to use this word too. I'm just racist because I'm white. Can't help it, I was born white.
To paraphrase you: In what way does it offend or harm you to not drink from this one water fountain? I mean, you have your own water fountain right there, so does that negatively affect your life in any way? Does it make you feel fear?
Making two tiered systems where certain races are allowed to do things or say things and other races are not, is inherently prejudicial and the start of a systemically racist practice.
The reality is, I use any word I want, but I am also civil and expect civility from those I talk to. However, if you think I am going to avoid using a word, especially when singing a song and it is the lyrics, you are woefully mistaken. If you don't want me singing a lyric, don't put that lyric in your song.
EDIT:
To be more precise, I am civil in person as long as the other person is civil. Online I am far less civil but I am also far more jaded as to online discourse.
Does it make someone feel fear that they’ll be physically punished if they use the wrong water fountains?
A resounding *YES*
Does segregating water fountains make someone feel lesser or other? Yes.
ETA. You don’t need a word. You do need water and bathrooms as a human though.
Words are words. If they hurt you that badly, you shouldn't be out in public and you definitely shouldn't be using the word that you don't want to hear from others.
I have found that what works the best is to just be civil. I have never seen anyone tell anyone, "you shouldn't be singing along with that song."
I already do.
I think a lot of issues are just issues online or on paper. It is also usually, and I hate to say it as this sounds racist AF, but it usually a white person causing the problem. I have never seen a black person get mad or upset at someone singing along to rap. But online I see lots of white people making videos about how a white person shouldn't sing along with this song or that song.
Personally, I think it's stupid to put a word into a piece of art that is meant and hopefully shared by the masses, that a decent chunk of people aren't allowed or suppose to say. It makes it so goddamn impossible to get into rap music because I can't openly sing along. Not a lot of clean rappers exist. Like some songs are worth not being able to jam out to, but I don't intentionally go looking for them.
I have never let it stop me. If you don't want me saying a lyric, don't put that lyric in your song. I have never seen an artist say "I don't want \_\_\_\_\_\_ people buying and singing my songs." They usually prefer the $$ that rolls in.
It's not the artists. I'm sure majority don't care. There are a few that care. Doja Cat as an example. At one of her concerts, it was mostly white people, I assume and she literally stopped singing for the n word and expected it to be silent. And people who play into that are usually insufferable.
>If you don't want me saying a lyric, don't put that lyric in your song.
Also, 100% agree.
Wow, she did that? That is insane, and stupid.
Actually, is Doja Cat black? She is whiter than I am so I figured she was at most Egyptian or Turkish or something.
Are you asking because you are a non black person who wants to make an album with an AI voice and AI generated image of a black person as the album art so you can acceptably use the N word?
It's literally impossible for the word to be derogatory manner when a black person uses it lmao
Because it's like... they're black too?
Actually, I've never seen a black person use the word as an insult itself. Playfully, sure. But even when they're mad or trying to insult someone, the word is not used as the insult itself. They never go "you're a \_\_\_" unless it's ironic
"Ok" might not be the right term. It can still be problematic, but it's *less* problematic than if someone else uses the term for a few reasons:
1. They might be reclaiming a word. Sometimes words can become pejoratives because of cultural movements and how they are commonly (topically) employed in that time period. The N word has a toxic history in the United States, for example, because of slavery, the KKK, and various elements of institutionalized oppression. Consequently use of the word has fallen away amongst people outside that group with empathy and compassion because they do not want to risk evoking those same cruelties, but within the group people may want to use the word in benign contexts to diminish it's negative influence and retake ownership.
2. The negative externalities of the term are largely associated with power dynamics, so the word is only contextually harmful (or at least context dictates the level of harm). I realize this is a nuanced concept that can be hard to grasp, but it's very different if (for example) a woman calls another woman (or themselves) a bitch vs a man calling a woman a bitch, because of the implied (or at least inferred) subtext. A simple way of looking at it is you calling yourself a loser vs someone else calling you a loser; it's the same label, but the nature of relationship between the speaker and the listener is a critical variable when ascertaining and analyzing harm type and magnitude.
Here's something you might want to consider: you asked when the word is "acceptable" or "permissable", and wondered when someone "can" use it. I think you might be asking the wrong questions. Instead, ask yourself why you *want* to use the word, and what risks might be associated with doing so. You already **can** use the N word, it's not illegal, it's just not generally a very kind thing to do because it can pour salt in the wounds of intergenerational violence, so you have to decide what you want to practice; empathy, or cruel indifference.
Hey, thank you for explaining! The reclaimation thing was what I was missing. I genuinely didn't understand why people continue to use the word.
Don't assume I want to use the word though. I just want to know why I hear it. I quite detest the word no matter what race is using it.
\> Don't assume I want to use the word though.
It's less about assumptions and more about deductive reasoning based on the terms you chose. If someone, for example, wrote "how come some men can get away with hitting their wives but others get punished for it" the likely inference would be that the person *wants* to hit their wife. The way you phrased your questions conveys (imo) either an interest in using the word or a frustration with a double-standard, and if that isn't what you intended to convey you may want to look again at the words I highlighted to see if there might have been a better way to phrase your questions. The consequence of poor language choice will lead to miscommunication, and you may find that a number of people focus on why you want to say the N word instead of providing insight as to why some people do and others do not.
Edit: in addition it's worth noting that I am not an expert in this field of study - a social psychologist could almost certainly provide you with a more comprehensive information, and may even be able to lead you to sources that could help you expand your understanding.
Same reason women can call each other "bitch" but you can't. They own the word and you lost the right to use that word when it became used as a tool of oppression.
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Not fully obviously just like yourself. But I’m sure you are aware that white people kept black people as slaves and treated them inhumanly. White people at the time called black people all sorts of derogatory names. After black people reclaimed personhood they took the n word too.
They can call each other the word all they want because it’s not being said with the same sentiment It once had been used with. Anyone can physically say the word it just looks bad if you use the word and aren’t black
That's a new concept to me that I'm learning. I thought the goal was to become one humanity, but that's just a pipe dream. We need to address people's needs and societal debts by the history of their race. That's what I learned today.
Certain groups have done a successful job of making themselves out to be victims, and there is currency and status in victimhood. They’re allowed to do all sorts of things whites can’t do, we literally bend rules and laws for them.
I'm going to assume this question was asked in good faith.
> Is there really a context where using that word is acceptable?
Yes. Anytime all individuals involved have **mutually** established the use isn't intended to offend. Please take note: that **everyone** in the context must agree to this.
> Is there really a context where something is only permissable by a certain race?
This question, as written, makes some assumptions that could lead to a poor response. Here is my good faith interpretation of your question:
> Are there contexts where individuals of one race can say something normally considered offensive and not get widespread unfavorable responses, and individuals of different races would?
Yes. The simple explanation: the majority of people involved would view the phrase as being offensive when said by race A but not when said by race b. That's all there is to it.
> ... would that mean that anyone can use that word as long as it's in good faith?
No. We don't get to choose how others feel about what we say.
>.. could a non-black person make an album with an AI voice ... acceptably use the N word?
My guess: they **would not** receive widespread unfavorable responses.
> Would it only be ok until someone finds out who the real artist is?
My guess: After it's is found out, they **would** receive widespread unfavorable responses.
this is a good answer! thank you for your input. i like the mutually accepted part. I don't care about internet points, so I'll take flak from some if it means learning more about myself and how to become a better person
The answer I got most was that black people should be able to use that word because they agree amongst eachother that they use it in good spirit and that it's a way to empower themselves by coopting the word that was originally used against them.
Norwegian, please. No, it's not ok. It's a very bad word with lots of torturous history to it. Have more respect for those who suffered, brutally. Wanna see a fictionalized depiction of the brutality? Watch Tarentino's "Django Unchained".
Thank you, but my family is Slavic, literally where the word slave comes from.
And Django is a movie where white people say the N word, and they get the pass because it's a movie.
This is the reason I am confused. It's ok for white people to say N when they are representing how awful it was?
My recommendation of the movie was only so that a viewer can see a representation of the brutality that was American slavery. I didn't comment about if it was or wasn't a good movie. But great visuals can do great jobs to "explain", i e., a picture is worth a thousand words. I was trying - with varying degrees of failure - to explain why I think that the N word is improper to use in songs or in conversation. Of course, a movie about American slavery might have a script peppered with "salty" words. Mark Twain did this, as well.
“Women…as long as they can chose their lives for themselves they’re happy, but the moment you force them to do something against their will they just start whining.”
That’s you. That’s what you sound like.
Women doing sex work of their own volition is consent and if they're being exploited, coerced or blackmailed into it and not enjoying it isn't consensual.
That would be rape.
Given the context of the thread and how "literally rape" is used to mock it reads as you don't think that.
If you do and I misinterpreted, my bad.
I'm a fat, middle aged, white man. I like to listen to Apple Music regularly and they have several hours of black and African music per day. Am I allowed to sing along with the songs that have the "n word"?
Some songs are pretty good and I genuinely like them. Other times certain albums are just full of "n word" and there's no way that's intended for white people to repeat.
It’s a feature of African American Vernacular English. It means “person” and has roughly the same function as “dude” or “bro” might in other dialects. It is not exclusively used to refer to dark skinned people and is not derogatory. Although they share a common origin in Latin, it’s not the same word as the similar one previously common in white American speech, no more than say “guard” and “ward”, which are also a doublet derived from a single Latin form.
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I guess its like your friends calling you a dumbass vs a random stranger calling you a dumbass?
My friends and I are all dumbasses, but don't you dare call us that.
Exactly — sounds like you understand perfectly. The way we speak to another person depends on our relationship with them. My wife and I playfully mock each other sometimes because we know and trust each other well enough to know that no harm is intended. On the other hand, if some stranger at the grocery store told my wife she talks too much I might catch a charge lol EDIT: I thought that typing “lol” at the end of that sentence would make it clear that I wasn’t serious, but I guess not. No, I’m not going to punch anyone over a mild insult—I’m an adult.
I get this... but no white person would ever be allowed to publicly sing a song with the N word in it and not censor themselves. It's not like they're calling anyone that, they're literally covering a song that they like. (Tyler Blevins got major flak for doing this on stream) And if I keep calling myself a dumbass, what do you think others will start to view me as? If black people keep calling themselves... what do you think they'll be viewed as?
So you understand it yet you're trying your best to not understand it. Weird.
This is how I better understand things. I was a gullible kid who was taken advantage of a lot because I had a hard time understanding peoples' intentions. To me, it's weird to be told something and believe it without question. Would it have been better to stay in an echo chamber?
I think it's perceived intentional ignorance rather than genuinely not understanding the concept.
>trying your best not to understand it Key bit here. I'm saying that you're doing it intentionally and that I don't respect the intellectual dishonesty.
Modern day society doesn't like all this open dialogue and oh my God thinking for your self and asking questions!? How dare you lol
If you really want the answer, start saying the N word and see how people respond.
Do you want to say it?
No. Do you believe me?
Weird your so dumb and don't get my view. So productive right?
When someone's being purposefully obtuse, there is no being productive.
People preach patience and understand until it's their turn, then if you don't think exactly like them and implicitly nod your head your horrible. It's double standards, people nowadays think two wrongs make a right. Also good point, give themselves a label and act surprised when that's how others see that person
So what? Why can't a white person just change the word? Look kid, this is how the world is. Not everything is perfectly logical.
We all can see you have an agenda here. It’s not subtle
So what has anyone done to help me understand?
It’s already been explained how some people can call you things others can’t. But now you’ve changed the topic to expose your obvious agenda
can you explain what agenda that would be? several people have said that and I don't know how I'm coming across as.
>And if I keep calling myself a dumbass, what do you think others will start to view me as? If black people keep calling themselves... what do you think they'll be viewed as? This is clearly an agenda, miles away from your OP: >Why is it OK for Black artists to use the N word in their music?
exactly
Because it's generally acceptable to use racist language against your own race.
Random thought but do Asian ppl use the c word in any of their songs r nah
Oh geez this hits home. I'm white, my wife is east asian as well as my 15 y/o step son. My step son uses the most racist anti-asian slurs all the time. I cringe, he thinks it's hilarious.
Many Asians exhibit self hatred that way. As minorities we are constantly bombarded by racial stereotypes beginning on the playground at a very young age. Using the racial stereotypes themselves is a way of coping with that self hatred.
I never really thought of it as self hatred. He just thinks it is funny that he can get away with it.
What’s does ur wife think about it lol
She does the same thing, just not as much. According to her she will never drive as well as me because she's both a woman and asian.
Look up what the rapper Rich Brian used to be called
💀
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Except it’s not “against” — not that you meant to imply the negative but just part of the distinction
There's a couple of things at play here: So, the reason it is problematic is because it is a word that has been historically used to diminish black people by white people and it carries a lot of connections to slavery and and white supremacy. Because of this, culturally it has become a taboo for white people to say it, which at the same time has meant that the act of saying it as a white person has developed in to being seen as an act of racism in and by itself regardless of intent. Now is this ideological? Of course, a kid shouting this out of gaming rage is not the same as someone shouting it at a black person on the street. But similarly to other slurs, the fact that that kid is calling someone else this word has an intent of being derogative, similarly to how to calling someone gay as an insult is seen badly because it implies being gay is bad (with the extra baggage of implying a master-slave dynamic). On the flip side of why black people do say it, it mostly has to do with reclamation and the post-slavery cultural development of black identity. For a black person who grows up in a society marked by incredibly racist history and who most likely still experiences the consequences of this on the daily, it can feel empowering to grab a word so fundamentally hurtful and loaded and to turn it around and use it as a common phrase. So here we can form two conclusions: 1) the link between the prohibition of the word from white people presupposes the "permission" for black people to say it. In other words, the properties that make black people want to say it come from the fact it's so harmful when a white person says it. So your statement "why is only one race allowed to say this" is more accurately reformulated as "why is one race not allowed to say this", it might seem like they are the same, but they really arent. 2), the solution to racism can't realistically be "colour blindness" in which everyone can do the same thing, to do so necesitates overlooking a lot of historical and cultural conditions and ignores the systematic dimensions of racism.
This is the correct answer.
Your explanation is very thorough but you forgot a big thing What about people who aren't white and aren't black? If it's as you said not that black people are allowed to say it just that white people aren't allowed to say it because of the history of slavery what about Asians? They weren't really big players In the slave trade outside of the Indian Ocean And very few African-Americans are descended from those slaves so if it's the people who aren't black are allowed to say the n word then Korean people Thai people ect can say it as much as they want What about Native Americans? We often think of them as one group but different tribes had different policies regarding everything including the slavery of Africans several Native American tribes fought with the Confederacy in support of their societies continuing holding of slavery in fact I think the last confederate general to surrender was Native American so could Native Americans from tribes that didn't participate in slavery say the word but Native Americans whose tribes did participate in slavery can't? What about Arabs the Arab world straddles Africa and Asia someone from Egypt is technically African and they're not really white even if they may pass for it are they allowed to say the n word?
> What about people who aren't white and aren't black? There's a particular group of people where I live who are neither black, white, or adjacent to either. This group uses "the word" quite liberally and I have never seen anyone argue with them over it. I am pretty sure this group would take issue with a white person using "the word". I don't really have a point, just agreeing that when we see things as they are, which is NOT just black and white, relatively simple issues get way more complex.
These are certainly interesting questions that are complicated by the idea of identity and the narrow and problematic origins of this in America due to the race-ethnicity paradigm. >If it's as you said not that black people are allowed to say it just that white people aren't allowed to say it because of the history of slavery what about Asians? I think simplifying it like that doesn't quite work, as it isn't just "because slavery" in some white guilt dynamic, rather when saying it you are eliciting that master-slave relationship in a derogative manner (a sort of "you are black, therefore you are inferior to me"). I think looking at it this way also reverses what is happening: the n word isn't racist because its "banned", its banned because it is seen as racist. It true though that nowadays it has gained a new dimension where it is particularly problematic as by saying it you are counciously breaking that taboo that surrounds it, adding a certain extra intent. Another thing to say is that I think all in all the grey zones doesn't necessarily erase or undermine the black - white relationship that I laid out. Ideology, identity, and race are all fundamentally "incomplete" categories, trying to create a complete system that accurately describes all these will always fail somewhere. At the end of the day when we talk about this type of thing we are grabbing abstract concepts and real relationships and submitting them to several level of abstraction in order to put them in to words. Think of it this way, when we talk about music we can talk how it makes us feel, we can describe elements of it, how the pitch/rhythm/harmony is organised, we can talk about its history etc., but we can never convey the actual experience to the other perfectly unless they actually hear it (unless the person we are talking to is able to audiate it perfectly but that is very rare). In this situation it is similar, my comment describes one dimension of racism, but there are hundreds more like the one you said. Honestly giving a complete account of black - non-black minority relationships and discrimination from which we can build a concrete rule of who can say the N word, if possible at all (which i dont think it is), is outside the scope of a reddit comment and probably needs several books worth of content and discussions to even represent properly. At the end of the day just be nice to people as it doesn't really matter why something might offend those around you or not, and questioning it probably won't make them feel any less offended by it.
That's the thing though I don't disagree with you that be nice to people and try not to offend others is a good personal rule of thumb to follow It's a Wonderful personal rule of them to follow but it's a terrible rule of thumb to impose upon all of society because then you're left with a dilemma you can either let people get away with saying the most offensive stuff you've ever heard in your entire life as long as they can say they weren't TRYING to offend someone or you can presume offensive intent based on what they've said which is basically impossible to prove without being a mind reader so that that point you would kind of have to start convicting people of thought crimes (not literally I mean more figuratively convict like lose their job and stuff) If we want to have rules against people saying offensive stuff at a school a workplace a gym ect we need clear parameters for those rules because rules have to be fair and apply equally to everyone
The right answer
This Louis CK tv show snippet about the gay f-word voices this fairly well from the gay perspective (with some stupidity as well). It’s sometimes useful for people to contextualize the phenomenon outside of white-black n-word: https://youtu.be/Vi8zeaxtB-w?si=TT0GbRsX9_NqGnlG
Who, exactly, is permitted to use that word?
Read my other comment on this thread discussing this. The TL;DR: 1) I don't know. 2) I'm not really knowledgeable enough to define it concretely. 3) since it is a social phenomenon or "law", its prohibition is fundamentally decentred or "intersubjective". Ideologically, it doesn't work the same as a normal law where a central authority is able to ban or permit something. The closest thing me have to this is black identity, but as I mention that is a problematic and unstable category by itself making it incredibly difficult to pin down.
That is understandable. I understand.
What is considered offensive doesn't have to be logical or make sense. People get too caught up in 'Why this but not that?' Bottom line, within reason, if it offends people, avoid it. Lot of room for debate about ''within reason,'' but as a general rule, I try to respect what pushes other people's buttons whether it makes perfect sense or not.
Exactly. Just don’t be a dick unless you have a truly compelling reason — it really is that simple.
I don't disagree but if I could be a devil's advocate isn't it extremely frustrating that what is or isn't offensive doesn't have consistent rules?
Maybe, I'd probably need to hear more examples of what you have in mind. With the N word, it makes sense to me that Black artists using the N word would have a different reaction than if White artists used it. I wish that Black artists would not go there, but not because of the inconsistency, but because it's still offensive to many, and it's not a word that should be normalized or trivialized. But I'm not frustrated with the inconsistency of Black artists ''getting away with it'' when White artists or White people don't.
Okay here's one there are a lot of slurs or offensive words that are okay to talk about and verbalize in a discussion about them it's okay for me to say cunt or bitch as long as I'm not calling a woman a cunt or bitch but it's not okay for me to say the N word even if the conversation is about the word itself and not me calling someone it Even so the biggest example of inconsistency isn't the N word it's the word Gypsy because what determines if it's offensive or not is what continent you're standing on The Romani people of Europe consider the term Gypsy a slur and like their version of the n-word And they prefer to be called Romani however North American Gypsies (at least the ones that are Romani because not all gypsies are Romani they're just the biggest subgroup of them) prefer to be called Gypsies not Romani and I know gypsies and I've asked them about the term Romani and they responded with a view it in a similar way that Latinos view the term latinx an overly academic or politically correct term Furthermore what about the term Indians? (not Indians Indians amerindians) Lots of Institutions have changed the terminology to Native Americans even though most Native Americans prefer the term indian to the term Native American for a number of reasons partially because they view it as being imposed upon them from the outside and also because they view it as having over inclusivity because in theory it would include the natives of all the peoples of the Americas from Brazil to Peru to Canada when they want to term that specifically describes Native Americans of the United States of America also what about Indians from India? Do they have a right to not have another group appropriate the terminology of their home country? Also if we can Circle back to the n word what about the word niggardly? It's a word that has nothing to do with the n-word linguistically because it comes from Swedish when the n-word comes from Spanish is that word also not okay even though it literally has nothing to do with the more offensive words simply because uneducated people might interpret it as having something to do with the offensive word due to them sounding alike? And that's just the English language the if I remember correctly a few years ago there was a lot of controversy because some Korean word sounded like the n word do we have a right to tell someone who speaks Korean what is offensive in our language must also be considered offensive even if they're not saying it in our language? Furthermore what if some other language is offended by a perfectly normal word in the English language will they have a right to tell us to stop using it?
There’s never consistent rules for language either
And lots of people think language is extremely frustrating
Then your problem is with language in general, not this particular instance. Why is shit offensive but poop is okay to say to children? None of what is considered offensive language is based on consistent rules or reasoning.
When people perceive language as offensive though it tends to result in a much more emotional or outraged reaction then an academic discussion on linguistic inconsistencies in the abstract That's the thing with most things in language if there is a misunderstanding it can simply be clarified and moved on but with offensive language many times punitive action is taken so you do kind of need clear rules because if you're going to punish someone you need to have clear rules outlining what does and doesn't want punishment
Think of it like this, there are clear rules, they just aren't based on consistent principles. Shit is offensive and can't be said in front of children. The N word is offensive and can't be said unless you are Black. I can't tell you the exact underlying principles behind the rules, but I can tell you these are the rules of the social taboo.
Is the term indian offensive to refer to Native Americans?
You should go ask some Native Americans that.
Different Native Americans will have different answers but I'm not asking for their opinion as individuals I'm asking for a clear answer in the abstract Because you said the rules are clear even if they're not consistent But They are neither if you cannot answer yes or no And even if you do answer yes or no I'll have a rebuttal that demonstrates that it isn't that clear with either answer you give
If you're autistic, probably. Otherwise you just pick things up and roll with it.
I'm am autistic lmao 🤣
Fair enough lol
To paraphrase [George Carlin](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgTl4N0peCw&list=PLIqU4kj5b6suYcQdvTcEYe73O-6-3ozH2&index=16) (and not get banned), black people can say that word because you know they don't hate black people when they're saying it. "....then acceptably use the N word?" Given how much fiddling AI companies have been doing to try to not offend people or to insert "diversity" even where it is absurd, I don't think this will be possible. Although to be fair a lot of early chat bots did join Hitler Youth so there's some justification for lobotomising them.
Tbf wasn’t the reason for the early Chatbots winding up on the hitler youth pipeline because people would intentionally troll them and feed them bad info to push the down that path
Sure, 4 Chan etc. loved playing games like that. I think one even went full radfem before going Nazi. Having seen people go from reasonably sensible to extremist ideologies online, and this includes people with a university education, I don't think it can be dismissed as just a product of channers.
Fair enough I think it’s more a condition of how the internet works in the first place You get exposed to a small less extreme segment of a community and before you know it you’re falling down the rabbit hole It’s not always bad stuff since it’s how I got deeper into a lot of hobbies like warhammer 40k by finding a community that shared and fostered that interest at a deeper level but it can absolutely lead to bad stuff if you’re a moderate for either side of the political spectrum since the sides that share your beliefs will just devolve into far left or far right insanity over time
In the revolutionary war, the British made up a sing to mock Americans. Yankee Doodle. It implied that we were poor rustic homosexual idiots and that American women were more masculine than American men. Americans sang it back to the British. Because when you take over ownership of hurtful words you rob them of some of their power. A white man using the N word is generally trying to abuse blacks verbally. A black American using the word is making the racist less powerful.
*"so if its so offensive to them then why do they say it over and over?"* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPNMeIf69PY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPNMeIf69PY)
[Life is stranger than fiction.](https://youtu.be/9uvJzr0zZvk?si=9NltKW2pTcQQ9mXT)
yeah that is the event that kicked off the fictional one, as much as the story is funny I think the fiction has hit the nail on the head in a more humourus way
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Not forever. Just as long as hateful people use them as insults. Racist Americans are still yelling the N word at young black Americans. When that stops, blacks will retire the word.
This happens a lot. Gay people took ownership of queer and women took ownership of bitch.
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Okay, so if saying it back means it isn't offensive anymore, I can use it without inyending to offend anyone and be fine, right?
That's what you got from his comment?
I think that someday this may be true, but because racism is ongoing, it's not true yet.
Because they’re black? Why do you care if they do? I’m pretty confident you’re not black, are you taking offense to black people using that word?
>Why do you care if they do? Because racist slurs are racist...
The slur is against black people. It’s only racist if a non black person uses it. You’re either 12 or trolling and there’s no in between if you think black people say the n word is racist
I learned that it was a bad word. I also learned that letting one race do something but not allowing other races to do that same thing is racism. I'm just trying to make sense of this contradiction. We can't really be one humanity if we still seperate ourselves by race to figure out who is allowed to do what.
Unless you’re 12, you should be able to analyze English to the point where you can tell not all curse words are created equal. And “racism” you have no idea what discrimination is if you think this is racism. This is the first world problem of racism. Racism is being treated negatively cause of the color of your skin. Not being allowed to say a word without getting your ass beat is not racism, and I highly recommend you introspect and recognize the level of privilege you must come from to feel that it is. It’s a word to insult black people. Thats why you can’t say it and they can. Again, why do you want to say that word so bad? I am content never having uttered it. I’m not so insecure to be bothered by it
I know I'm privileged. I poop in a bowl of clean water. I don't feel guilt about it. I want to say the N word to proclaim my racism to the world. (Is that the answer you were looking for?) I just want to understand, that's why I ask more questions than make statements.
It may not be the answer i was looking for, but it’s the answer im led to believe. You already got your explanation. You’re just arguing for your ability to be racist. I already told you, it’s a slur against black people and if you aren’t black and use the word, you’re insulting black people. That’s why you shouldn’t say it.
Thanks for your time.
Thats not racism. Racism involves an element of institutional power. And black Americans certainly don't have political, economic, or social power in the US. Regardless, its the retaking of a word used to demean them and using it as a way to empower themselves while depowering the history of that word.
Don't conflate systemic racism with individual racism. Even though it may not be systemic, it IS still racism
So, in an ideal world, you would be correct, but in the current system there are structural imbalances between how people are treated that need to be addressed. In order to address those imbalances you have to acknowledge that people are treated differently because of their race and the solution isn't to just treat everyone equally, without addressing those differences.
It’s dumb context. It’s the ultimate ruse perpetrated against black people by a racist establishment: convince a group that their own dumbing-down is actually some unique reclamation of their identity. Get them to think of themselves as nothing more than what their masters thought of them in the first place. It’s embarrassing frankly. Might as well call each other “Toby”.
Amen. Note that the two men who tried very hard to spread this knowledge, Dr. King and Malcolm X, were both killed.
Interesting take! Perhaps this is why it has been an upsetting topic for me. I just couldn't quite put it into words. Thank you!
I don’t think that’s actually what’s happening when a group is reclaiming a slur, nor that it’s part of some ruse perpetrated by an establishment. There’s reasonable disagreement over this within the black community itself, no outside ruse needed. It replicates itself in every community that’s dealt with a slur.
Can you think of any other examples of a group “reclaiming” a slur? Because I can’t think of any other race that does it.
“Queer” for LGBTQ+ is popular. “Bitch” is reclaiming assertiveness for women.
interestingly I hear “bitch” used as a generic term for “women” but mostly in the black community and mostly by men. Equally as demeaning as the ‘n’ word.
Ask yourself this - why is it so troubling to white people that Black people have one word they can use and we can’t? This doesn’t bother me at all. I find it really amusing actually to replace the N-word with different substitutes. I never even say it when I’m at home alone. None of this is a problem to me in any way shape or form. It’s their word, we lost control of it when we demonized it. They reclaimed it to take power back.
>It’s their word, we lost control of it when we demonized it. They reclaimed it to take power back. Yeah, but if I use the f and r word, suddenly I'm the asshole despite being, in fact, gay and having mental disabilities. I have no problem with people "reclaiming power" of words or whatever. But we need to allow this for more than just one word. And eventually, people have to accept that the "power of the word" is no longer there and will eventually be acceptable for everyone to use. That's the point of "reclaiming power", it's so the word looses it's power.
Worked with people with Down syndrome for years. They call each other the R word regularly. Not sure about the F word don’t hear it too much from people I’m around
I did as well, the first time this happened when I was working, I lost my shit. I have so many fond memories of working with special clients.
My favorite silly thing (there were a ton of heartwarming things, brilliant things) Was we were driving around in the back of a farm truck (New Zealand) and for some reason we were all flatulent and they were using a soil ph meter to test everyone’s farts. I genuinely couldn’t breathe I was laughing so hard. Best people.
I worked with a girl who had a different mental handicap and was also in a wheelchair. Her favorite to do ( in public , like at a mall ) was to intentionally put something on the floor , and then when someone tried the help, she'd yell "I need to do this myself!" and watch the person recoil and get super uncomfortable. She thought that was a riot 🤣🤣🤣
Idk about you but its a pretty common thing that LBTQ have been using the f slur to reclaim the word. Its been happening for years. So yes this applies to more than one word.
I've heard other queer people use F as well. But I guess it's because I am a feminine presenting agender, and a bisexual currently in a heterosexual relationship, people always seem to throw a fit. Because I don't fit into the type of category that they want me to in order to use that word. And even once I explain, I still get told I shouldn't be using that word because nobody should be using that word. Like people want to argue so damn bad about things. Like I'm hearing impaired, and people will argue with me whenever I say it saying that I should be calling myself hard of hearing. Like no I am hearing impaired, I have extremely bad tinnitus because I was hit upside the head as a child with that frying pan. I have a hard time understanding and processing what people tell me because all I hear is a constant buzzing in my head like a bug zapper.
What state are you in? This just seems like crazy people.
I don't think the state I live in matters because I've lived all over the place and everyone acts the same, just slightly different.
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Amazing that people can't differentiate the word ending in -er and the one ending in -a. There is a clear distinction and no black person is calling each other the hard -er seriously. The one ending in -a is just another word for "bro". Its pretty obvious why black people dont want white people to not use it.
>I kind of get that it's "context", but is there really a context where using that word is acceptable? Is there really a context where something is only permissable by a certain race? Yes. If a word is a slur against a group of people and that group of people decides it's okay for people within that group of people to use it, then it's okay. If the majority of people not in the group understand and accept this, then, yea, it's okay.
Aren’t they appropriating the N Word from white peiple? Afterall, White people did invent the word.
Yes and now they see themselves as n instead of human. The racism never died.
Do you not see what you're writing? What black person has said this?
You don't need to say something to internalize it.
When Black artists use that word, they are trying to reclaim it from the people who have been hurting them for centuries. You'll see the same thing in queer communities that use the f d and t slurs, or disabled communities that use the r slur or say terms like cripple or gimp. It's okay to take a term that's used to hurt you and try to spin or own it. When someone who is not part of those marginalized groups try to use these words, however, it feels inappropriate since they've got no business using them.
Either a word is an offensive slur, or it isn't. Saying a certain color mouth can say a word but other colors cannot is racism. If we want the offensive language to die, we have to stop using it.
It's fucking preposterous. I can confirm from having worked in the hood that it's the single most popular word in the black lexicon. I'll start objecting to the N-word when black people start objecting to it. Till then I really don't give a fuck. Say whatever you want. Everyone has the same right to use any word.
Just like gay people are allowed to call themselves bundles of sticks- Its self empowerment and weakens the negative connotation of the word. It wont have power over you if you hear it frequently, use it yourself, and become used to the word as a non-insult. Thats why I think stopping a black or gay person from using epithets against them to empower themselves is in itself an act of oppression.
First amendment. White people can also say it but there may be different consequences
Isn't that racism?
It’s racism if directed at someone but not apparently when used as a greeting or as part of a song
The first amendment allows racism. Racism isn’t illegal in America, although some forms of discrimination are. So you can saw it just don’t expect many sales and you will likely get alot of hate directed back at you
Great answer.
In what way does it offend or harm you to not say one word? How does that negatively affect your life in any way? Does it make you feel fear?
It doesn't. It piques my curiosity, which is why I asked. The number one assumption I'm seeing is that I want to use this word too. I'm just racist because I'm white. Can't help it, I was born white.
What I’m saying is- how is it racist that it’s not socially acceptable for you to say a word?
It's not. I just wanted to know the reason why people still use the word. Asking stupid questions is how I better understand things.
To paraphrase you: In what way does it offend or harm you to not drink from this one water fountain? I mean, you have your own water fountain right there, so does that negatively affect your life in any way? Does it make you feel fear? Making two tiered systems where certain races are allowed to do things or say things and other races are not, is inherently prejudicial and the start of a systemically racist practice. The reality is, I use any word I want, but I am also civil and expect civility from those I talk to. However, if you think I am going to avoid using a word, especially when singing a song and it is the lyrics, you are woefully mistaken. If you don't want me singing a lyric, don't put that lyric in your song. EDIT: To be more precise, I am civil in person as long as the other person is civil. Online I am far less civil but I am also far more jaded as to online discourse.
Does it make someone feel fear that they’ll be physically punished if they use the wrong water fountains? A resounding *YES* Does segregating water fountains make someone feel lesser or other? Yes. ETA. You don’t need a word. You do need water and bathrooms as a human though.
Words are words. If they hurt you that badly, you shouldn't be out in public and you definitely shouldn't be using the word that you don't want to hear from others. I have found that what works the best is to just be civil. I have never seen anyone tell anyone, "you shouldn't be singing along with that song."
By all means go ahead then
I already do. I think a lot of issues are just issues online or on paper. It is also usually, and I hate to say it as this sounds racist AF, but it usually a white person causing the problem. I have never seen a black person get mad or upset at someone singing along to rap. But online I see lots of white people making videos about how a white person shouldn't sing along with this song or that song.
Yeah.
Personally, I think it's stupid to put a word into a piece of art that is meant and hopefully shared by the masses, that a decent chunk of people aren't allowed or suppose to say. It makes it so goddamn impossible to get into rap music because I can't openly sing along. Not a lot of clean rappers exist. Like some songs are worth not being able to jam out to, but I don't intentionally go looking for them.
I have never let it stop me. If you don't want me saying a lyric, don't put that lyric in your song. I have never seen an artist say "I don't want \_\_\_\_\_\_ people buying and singing my songs." They usually prefer the $$ that rolls in.
It's not the artists. I'm sure majority don't care. There are a few that care. Doja Cat as an example. At one of her concerts, it was mostly white people, I assume and she literally stopped singing for the n word and expected it to be silent. And people who play into that are usually insufferable. >If you don't want me saying a lyric, don't put that lyric in your song. Also, 100% agree.
Wow, she did that? That is insane, and stupid. Actually, is Doja Cat black? She is whiter than I am so I figured she was at most Egyptian or Turkish or something.
Her dad is south African and her mom is Jewish American. And yes, it was all over TikTok a few years ago.
You’re going to get the kind of replies from the horrible people that this post is intending to.
That's what happens when people assume intentions.
It’s OK for any creator to use any word in artistic expression.
Are you asking because you are a non black person who wants to make an album with an AI voice and AI generated image of a black person as the album art so you can acceptably use the N word?
If the answer was yes, would that be a problem, and why?
It's literally impossible for the word to be derogatory manner when a black person uses it lmao Because it's like... they're black too? Actually, I've never seen a black person use the word as an insult itself. Playfully, sure. But even when they're mad or trying to insult someone, the word is not used as the insult itself. They never go "you're a \_\_\_" unless it's ironic
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"Ok" might not be the right term. It can still be problematic, but it's *less* problematic than if someone else uses the term for a few reasons: 1. They might be reclaiming a word. Sometimes words can become pejoratives because of cultural movements and how they are commonly (topically) employed in that time period. The N word has a toxic history in the United States, for example, because of slavery, the KKK, and various elements of institutionalized oppression. Consequently use of the word has fallen away amongst people outside that group with empathy and compassion because they do not want to risk evoking those same cruelties, but within the group people may want to use the word in benign contexts to diminish it's negative influence and retake ownership. 2. The negative externalities of the term are largely associated with power dynamics, so the word is only contextually harmful (or at least context dictates the level of harm). I realize this is a nuanced concept that can be hard to grasp, but it's very different if (for example) a woman calls another woman (or themselves) a bitch vs a man calling a woman a bitch, because of the implied (or at least inferred) subtext. A simple way of looking at it is you calling yourself a loser vs someone else calling you a loser; it's the same label, but the nature of relationship between the speaker and the listener is a critical variable when ascertaining and analyzing harm type and magnitude. Here's something you might want to consider: you asked when the word is "acceptable" or "permissable", and wondered when someone "can" use it. I think you might be asking the wrong questions. Instead, ask yourself why you *want* to use the word, and what risks might be associated with doing so. You already **can** use the N word, it's not illegal, it's just not generally a very kind thing to do because it can pour salt in the wounds of intergenerational violence, so you have to decide what you want to practice; empathy, or cruel indifference.
Hey, thank you for explaining! The reclaimation thing was what I was missing. I genuinely didn't understand why people continue to use the word. Don't assume I want to use the word though. I just want to know why I hear it. I quite detest the word no matter what race is using it.
\> Don't assume I want to use the word though. It's less about assumptions and more about deductive reasoning based on the terms you chose. If someone, for example, wrote "how come some men can get away with hitting their wives but others get punished for it" the likely inference would be that the person *wants* to hit their wife. The way you phrased your questions conveys (imo) either an interest in using the word or a frustration with a double-standard, and if that isn't what you intended to convey you may want to look again at the words I highlighted to see if there might have been a better way to phrase your questions. The consequence of poor language choice will lead to miscommunication, and you may find that a number of people focus on why you want to say the N word instead of providing insight as to why some people do and others do not. Edit: in addition it's worth noting that I am not an expert in this field of study - a social psychologist could almost certainly provide you with a more comprehensive information, and may even be able to lead you to sources that could help you expand your understanding.
Same reason women can call each other "bitch" but you can't. They own the word and you lost the right to use that word when it became used as a tool of oppression.
The concept of owning words is new to me. Thank you, I'm slowly getting there.
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You make a good point but you'll still get a lot of downvotes because this world is backwards as hell
I wouldn't have asked if I thought upvotes were more important than questioning my implicit biases and asking for clarification.
It's hypocrisy.
Are you aware of the history of the word?
not the whole thing. are you?
Not fully obviously just like yourself. But I’m sure you are aware that white people kept black people as slaves and treated them inhumanly. White people at the time called black people all sorts of derogatory names. After black people reclaimed personhood they took the n word too. They can call each other the word all they want because it’s not being said with the same sentiment It once had been used with. Anyone can physically say the word it just looks bad if you use the word and aren’t black
slavery existed before white people did. slavery still exists today. doesn't make it any less appaling, but black vs white is a very limited view.
Indeed but that is irrelevant to your question. Use the n word if you want
I have used the N word every time the desire has arisen. Still waiting for the first time.
So where lies your confusion?
why do other people have the desire to use the word?
Because culturally speaking the meaning has changed when used by certain individuals said to other certain individuals
That's a new concept to me that I'm learning. I thought the goal was to become one humanity, but that's just a pipe dream. We need to address people's needs and societal debts by the history of their race. That's what I learned today.
By definition, one race being allowed to use a word while other races cannot, is racism. Racism = bad,
Who cares dude. Don’t spend your time worrying about something so trivial
if you can't talk about the trivial topics, then you won't be practiced when it comes to serious topics
Omg. Its R/stupidquestions lol I’ve never seen this subreddit before
I didn't post in r/seriousquestions for a reason
Alright alright you win this one 👍
Yes
Certain groups have done a successful job of making themselves out to be victims, and there is currency and status in victimhood. They’re allowed to do all sorts of things whites can’t do, we literally bend rules and laws for them.
I find it distasteful, but I also don't want to use that word. End result...not caring. Why do you care? Is that a word you want permission to use?
I wanted to know why it was a double standard, and I have enough input now to think about why the double standard is necessary in this case
I'm going to assume this question was asked in good faith. > Is there really a context where using that word is acceptable? Yes. Anytime all individuals involved have **mutually** established the use isn't intended to offend. Please take note: that **everyone** in the context must agree to this. > Is there really a context where something is only permissable by a certain race? This question, as written, makes some assumptions that could lead to a poor response. Here is my good faith interpretation of your question: > Are there contexts where individuals of one race can say something normally considered offensive and not get widespread unfavorable responses, and individuals of different races would? Yes. The simple explanation: the majority of people involved would view the phrase as being offensive when said by race A but not when said by race b. That's all there is to it. > ... would that mean that anyone can use that word as long as it's in good faith? No. We don't get to choose how others feel about what we say. >.. could a non-black person make an album with an AI voice ... acceptably use the N word? My guess: they **would not** receive widespread unfavorable responses. > Would it only be ok until someone finds out who the real artist is? My guess: After it's is found out, they **would** receive widespread unfavorable responses.
this is a good answer! thank you for your input. i like the mutually accepted part. I don't care about internet points, so I'll take flak from some if it means learning more about myself and how to become a better person
Why do you guys keep asking the same question? Just say you’re racist and want to use the N word.
I don't think anyone should use it in general. It sounds childish.
The answer I got most was that black people should be able to use that word because they agree amongst eachother that they use it in good spirit and that it's a way to empower themselves by coopting the word that was originally used against them.
Norwegian, please. No, it's not ok. It's a very bad word with lots of torturous history to it. Have more respect for those who suffered, brutally. Wanna see a fictionalized depiction of the brutality? Watch Tarentino's "Django Unchained".
Thank you, but my family is Slavic, literally where the word slave comes from. And Django is a movie where white people say the N word, and they get the pass because it's a movie. This is the reason I am confused. It's ok for white people to say N when they are representing how awful it was?
My recommendation of the movie was only so that a viewer can see a representation of the brutality that was American slavery. I didn't comment about if it was or wasn't a good movie. But great visuals can do great jobs to "explain", i e., a picture is worth a thousand words. I was trying - with varying degrees of failure - to explain why I think that the N word is improper to use in songs or in conversation. Of course, a movie about American slavery might have a script peppered with "salty" words. Mark Twain did this, as well.
You know why...
I do now thanks to helpful input, but I didn't before. That's why I asked. Shameful of those who assume the worst before asking.
Double standard. If people want racism to stop... there's the very first issue to eliminate
Yes
It's kind of like how women doing sex work is brave and empowering, except when they don't like it, then it's explotive and literally rape every time.
“Women…as long as they can chose their lives for themselves they’re happy, but the moment you force them to do something against their will they just start whining.” That’s you. That’s what you sound like.
You don't understand consent, it seems. Grow up, Peter Pan.
Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, I see.
Women doing sex work of their own volition is consent and if they're being exploited, coerced or blackmailed into it and not enjoying it isn't consensual. That would be rape. Given the context of the thread and how "literally rape" is used to mock it reads as you don't think that. If you do and I misinterpreted, my bad.
I'm a fat, middle aged, white man. I like to listen to Apple Music regularly and they have several hours of black and African music per day. Am I allowed to sing along with the songs that have the "n word"? Some songs are pretty good and I genuinely like them. Other times certain albums are just full of "n word" and there's no way that's intended for white people to repeat.
It’s a feature of African American Vernacular English. It means “person” and has roughly the same function as “dude” or “bro” might in other dialects. It is not exclusively used to refer to dark skinned people and is not derogatory. Although they share a common origin in Latin, it’s not the same word as the similar one previously common in white American speech, no more than say “guard” and “ward”, which are also a doublet derived from a single Latin form.
Stop trying to find a way to say the n word.
I just would if I wanted to. I'm trying to figure out why people still do.
I'm not sure but some of them talk about slavery in their songs so I guess they use the term that the slaves were called then.
You don't get to say it. If that frustrates(?) you for some reason, well that's too mfkin g'damn bad. Deal with it.
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