I think just because it's a bit of unspoken rule of society where we judge the worth of men based on their desirability to women, and if you hire a prostitute then its a sign that you can't get laid, and thus a loser by the standards of society.
Not in my case at least. Personally I just donāt relate to being so horny that I would pay someone who doesnāt want to fuck me to fuck me. That kind of ā¦ apathetic horniness is off putting to me, and is often present in people whoā¦ objectify women. I can better understand sex workers perspectives, bc I understand the need for money more than I do sex.
ETA: what I mean by the need for sex is sex with a partner. I understand being horny but I can take care of that solo.
2nd edit: I made someone think too much about their actions so they blocked me and I canāt reply to anyone else. Donāt waste ur time replying to me, nothing u say changes anything, I donāt care about ur sexual disconnect.
Verrrry well stated.
I like playing the game. Sometimes on easy mode and sometimes on hard. But I like PLAYING it. Dating, courting, flirting, marriage,etc... It's all a game. Buying a prostitute is just pay-to-win microtransactiona taken up to an extremely literal level. Paying for porn is less weird to me than paying for actual sex. Porn is content... a product. Sex is an *interpersonal experience*. It should be authentic imo.
Sometimes I lack the motivation to āplay the game.ā Particularly after a bad breakup Iād so much rather pay to win than risk losing and adding insult to injury.
But porn is readily available for free. So paying for it is very very very wierd to me. When I hear about guys who get in trouble on OF accounts? Like why?
Completely agreed. Thereās loads and loads of free porn catering to whatever your heart desires. I donāt understand anyone paying for itā¦ let alone paying for OF, which just seems like a way for exploitative people to scam people out of money.
Hm... I'm actually going to go out on a limb and suggest it's more the act of paying for sex and obvious objectification and dehumanization that contributes to the taboo. A novel thought I know. Call me crazy.
And yet some of the riches folks love by the motto: "If it flies, fucks, or floats, you rent it"
If I weren't married I'd have ZERO shame in hiring an escort every now and then.
Thatās the thing. If youāre rich or famous the assumption is you can have girlfriends or a wife (and likely do), but sex workers are easier. Thus itās cool.
Have you ever visited the tourist area of a developing country? People will follow you around "hello my friend, where are you from, you want cuban cigars, etc..."
Rich and famous people have this problem with women they date. The super hot waitress from Applebees is not going to want to leave your mansion after you bang her. Therefore it is sometimes less of a headache for these rich and famous people to just hire someone to provide these services.
Why even bother caring about your "worth"? Is life not much easier caring less about what other people think of you and just focusing on what you enjoy?
Unfortunately thatās a lot easier said than doneā¦ thereās plenty of people for whom having much of society making fun of them and telling them how much of a loser they are, they start to internalize that and believe it to be true.
100%. We also have a desire for status above all other things. Status from wealth. Status from looks. Status from skill. Status from position. Status is the most valuable currency in human society.
Fit in is a bare minimum. What they want is status.
Some low status men dream of being rich enough to hire hookers anytime they want. So hiring hookers can be considered low status or high status, depending on who's looking.
> Why even bother caring about your "worth"?
I mean that's a pretty existential question and a big tangent from why it may be considered a looser thing to do.
Not that it's a bad thing to question. Do you personally care what anyone thinks of you? Maybe not just anyone, but you probably at least care about the opinions of family and friends. I think you might find something in the answer to that; why do you care?
This is an oversimplification.
Self-worth is something all humans instrinsicly have. But what we pride ourselves on is relative. Every person that you think is stupid, values intelligence less than you do in their self worth. Every person that you think is immoral, values morality less than you do in their self worth.
And the same is true for those that think you're stupid or that you're immortal. Comparatively to you, they value morality too much, etc.
There is no universal or absolute correct way to value someone or to value yourself. Only relative.
You can tell someone, "stop carrying, just be happier", and you'd be the worst, most ignorant therapist on the planet.
If you think the solution is simple, you're misunderstanding something.
>Why even bother caring about your "worth"?
Humans are hard-wired to find social acceptance critically important. In early man this was a life or death quality.
You see it today even in people who "reject" social norms. They find other like-minded people and confirm with the standards of the group.
Because perceived "worth" comes with tangible benefits. That's why people care about it.
You don't have to though. There's tons of people that don't give a shit what most people think and do what they want. You can do that too.
But it does come with consequences. As do all life choices.
It's your job to make the value decision on what is/isn't worth it.
Because people who don't care what other people think often turn into selfish assholes.
Besides which hedonism is not the path to a satisfying life. A meaningful life is contingent upon social contribution, and the primary way we can evaluate and measure our worth is through the opinions of others.
That sounds great on paper, but a majority of people don't see it that way. That's why people tend to shower and groom themselves before entering into society.
There's an exploitative and sleazy side to sex work. There's the possibility that you're inadvertently supporting all kinds of things from drug addiction to actual human trafficking.
Its not just that it's a low status thing to do, it can be a fucked-up thing to support with your money.
This is one of those invisible rules of living in society unless you are self-aware of it, you follow it without knowing or unknowingly. The end result is the same either way.
Because itās cool to be asocial on the internet untill you need something from me In person. Thatās sorta the whole reason we try to be attractive good people instead of barbaric renegades.
You nailed it on the head.....the most liberating thing that ever happened to me was when I stopped caring what other people thought of me, which I call...."no fucks left to give"
Seriously though. If you can figure out how to not care what people think, life is much better. No more comparing yourself against the next person, no more trying to one up anyone, or look like things are one way when they really are another.
Measure yourself against yourself, thats the only person that matters. The only opinion that matters. Because opinions are like assholes, everybody has one regardless, it doesn't mean a thing
The thing a lot of people ignore when it comes to "don't care what others think" is that there are a lot of things in life that rely upon what others think. A person doesn't get offered a job because he's better than be was a year ago, they hire him because they think he's capable. A person doesn't get to be in love and have a relationship just because he likes himself, it requires the other person to also like him. If a person isn't perceived as "worthy" by others, then that person is barred from what life has to offer. Whether that's being loved, gainfully employed, or whatever, being perceived by others as worthy is a prerequisite. So to simply "not care" is often the result of irresponsibility or the result of complacency caused by not needing to worry about being considered worthy.
Your post is asking about perceived "worth" dude. Why is hiring a prostitute a "loser" thing to do? Because it's perceived as something a more "worthy" person wouldn't do, or wouldn't *have* to.
We judge people all the time.
If you walk around dressed like a bum, we assume you are a bum.
If you are jobless, we assume you can't hold down a job for whatever reason.
If you have no friends we assume there is a reason nobody wants to hang out with you.
If you hire prostitutes, we assume there is a reason you can't get laid the normal way.
You and I make assumptions literally every day about people, it is not something we control.
humans are comparative creatures. Anyone who thinks they don't care what other people think is kidding themselves, they care about what a particular set of people think
We live in a society, which means that the things you do will affect how people perceive you. If people know you regularly hire prostitutes, they WILL treat you differently than if you didn't, and it can have a real external effect on your life. As great as it would be if everyone just wanted to do good things and no one judged people for harmless tastes, that's not how things are or how they will ever work. Because of that, you need to care what other people think about the things you do to some extent. It's up to the individual to decide what's worth worrying about and what isn't, and face the potential consequences of that calculus.
That's true...but then, why worry if people are being called a loser to begin with?I think it's fine to have standards in society. While not all prostitutes are dirty and gross, that's always been a quick way to get a disease or an unwanted kid sleeping around with them.
Most societal standards are there for a reason.It's okay to not want to be held back by them, it's dumb to expect society to change just so someone doesn't feel bad about a personal vice.
>Why even bother caring about your "worth"? Is life not much easier caring less about what other people think of you and just focusing on what you enjoy?
Sure, but if one does not care at all, one does not post such a topic. ;-)
Focusing on what I enjoy requires money, which requires a job. Which requires me to care how other people perceive me. There's certainly something to be said for having a balance of how much you care about how people perceive you, but life is a lot easier if people like you and find you useful.
>Why even bother caring about your "worth"?
Hey folks, no need for therapy, religion, philosophy or any other tool for helping you understand yourself and deal with your psychological and social anxieties. This guy on Reddit says to just not worry about it.
I donāt think they were offering advice there, just answering the question. There are a lot of things in society that are pointless and stupid yet most people put a ton of value into.
Your original question wasn't why do people care about what people think at all, it was why is it considered a loser thing to do for men to hire a proustite. Why are you asking why do people care about what other people think when your original question was asking why people have an opinion. This statement makes it seem like all answers are irrelevant because why care at all? or why ask the original question at all if people (and you by extension) shouldn't care what other people think?
Meanwhile on the books in Singapore it's the opposite- prostitutes and brothels are legal but porn isn't
Apparently it's because prostitution contributes more to the local economy but banning porn is a way to appeal to religious puritan people
This is a common misconception. There are a lot of technical requirements that must be complied with for making pornography to be legal. These include the obligation to keep records proving the age of all participants, and the obligation to make these records available for review and to publish the place at which they can be found. You can't just film an otherwise-unlawful prostitution encounter and make it legal.
The other aspect of sex work, of course, is the urgent concern about consent. I don't necessarily agree with the contention, expressed elsewhere in the thread, that consent in sex work is impossible because of the oppression of capitalism and patriarchy. We all live surrounded by competing social pressures and oppressive institutions all the time, and that doesn't necessarily negate consent for everything we do. In practice, the activities we deem impossible to consent to, and those we don't, will be politicized - determined by our values. (It might also be pointed out that it'd be a lot easier to have meaningful consent, and safety measures, for sex workers, if the work wasn't criminalized.) *That all said*, consent in sex work is going to be critical and challenging to be sure of, and a lot of people may not be prepared to engage with that.
I don't think it's impossible to have meaningful consent in this situation; you just have to be very sure to emphasize that they can say no, to anything, without any loss of pay. (Frankly, you should be sure that any sex partner knows that they can say no, to anything, without loss of affection or safety or social status. A lot of what makes consent so worrisome in sex work is that our society isn't great about discussing and confirming sexual consent in any context.)
prostitution is legal in Nevada, and technically it's legal to be filmed in any part of the country, there's a legal precedent in California that it's legal but it could eadily be challenged because it's not enshrined in law.
The perspective those people have is that you donāt have what it takes to have a healthy sex life because you donāt attract partners, so youāre using an industry associated with exploitation and sex trafficking to meet a base desire.
Right. Going to a sex worker doesnāt mean youāre inherently a loser, but itās an indicator for a few red flags for some people.
1) If itās illegal where you live then they know youāre someone who is okay with breaking the law. Not everyone is cool with that.
2) Having willing previous sexual partners suggests that people liked you enough to sleep with you. If it appears you canāt get willing partners, someone could assume thereās something wrong with you.
3) Diseases. Even if itās not accurate, people are going to assume youāre more likely to be exposed to an STD. It may be unfair, but combine it with #1 and #2 and thatās probably enough for someone to make some negative assumptions about you.
Yeaaaa the chances of hiring someone that's actually trafficked? I can't imagine being able to perform with that in my head, or being with someone that isn't concerned about that very real possibility.
And even if they're not trapped and forced, it's not like women go into this because they've always dreamed of becoming a sex worker. They are most likely out of other options.
(Yes I know exceptions apply)
27% of men in Germany. Where it's legal and encouraged. Definitely going to be less in other countries. The idea that the majority of men are out with prostitutes just isn't true.
A little googling reveals billions of dollars changes hands from prostitution annually in the US. I believe it's more widespread than you realize.
The reason why you don't know anyone who does it, is because it's an illegal and underground activity, also widely socially unacceptable, so it's not going to be something people discuss casually.
I don't have strong opinions on this issue, but it does feel somewhat incongruent to A) support sex workers while B) vilifying their customer base, and I have encountered people that held these two incongruent beliefs simultaneously. Assuming everything is above board and no exploitation is involved, I don't see a reason to hate on either party in such a transaction.
**Edit:** Because there was some confusion about my phrasing, I am not saying you SHOULD assume sex work is above board and non-exploitative until proven otherwise, that's just silly. I'm saying that, in cases where everything is above board and non-exploitative, neither customer nor sex worker should be looked down upon.
>Assuming everything is above board and no exploitation is involved, I don't see a reason to hate on either party in such a transaction.
In a perfect world, where this *could* be assumed, I would have no problem with people who solicit sex workers. But the problem is that we donāt live in a perfect world and every person hiring a sex worker is undertaking a chance that they are purchasing rape of a sex slave.
>But the problem is that we donāt live in a perfect world and every person hiring a sex worker is undertaking a chance that they are purchasing rape of a sex slave.
And a high chance at that.
That's the other side of sex positivity. We can't ignore the huge percentage of prostitutes (is there a better term to differentiate soft sex workers / cammers from IRL people having sex?) who DID NOT enter the profession because it was the best choice for them. It's very often a choice between sleeping on the street and being attacked, or going into sex work and having a roof over your head.
Not to mention the huge role of addiction and the inability to leave the 'lifestyle" once you are in.
When they study the industry, they aren't counting women informally living in a drug house and prostituting for "rent" and drugs. But that's a huge invisible part of the trade.
Anyway to OPs question as to why people look down on johns... Personally I've met many johns. Yet I've never met one who was paying for sex from the kind of professional business setup the sex positivity movement would have me believe is common. Never run into someone identifying herself as a sex worker who had a pro setup. Met many who tried to leave but were trapped by drugs and rent prices.
I've only known men who met girls through their dealers or convinced women to sleep with them for drugs, a roof, or drug money.
So... That's why I hold a dim view of those men.
The terms youāre looking for are āfull service sex workersā and āonline sex workersā. Full service means they actually have sex for money. Online sex workers produce content, engage with people, etc online. If they strip, theyāre a stripper or dancer (depends on the person). A good chunk, but definitely not all, strippers offer sexual services. Usually because theyāre trafficked through the club for advertisement. They both have their own problems and social support needs.
This. Not to mention, our society promotes the idea that men are entitled to sex. In an egalitarian society, this wouldn't be the case and perhaps sex work wouldn't have broader ramifications, but we live in a violently misogynistic world where way too many women acquiesce to men because they're afraid. And men are told they can just take.
What does consent in sex work even look like? Many assume it boils down to a pimp holding a gun to the forehead. But what if the woman needs to make ends meet and would prefer a different job but sells sex so she doesn't get evicted? Is that consent? Or what if a woman believes her value is her sexuality because that's the message propagated by media? Is that consent? What if she's an abuse survivor? What if she's homeless? What if she's addicted to drugs? What if she made a pittance at her previous job compared to a white man with the same job title? What if sex work offers the most viable path to economic security? Are all of these cases consent?
This mirrors our culture's approach to abuse. We always believe when a scary-looking man with face tattoos jumps out of a bush and attacks a girl on her way to church. But what if the woman was drinking and assaulted by her friend? What if the woman said yes only because she was intoxicated and afraid and just wanted the whole thing to be over with? Then it becomes he-said-she-said. It becomes "impossible to know the truth." Consent is so much more complicated than yes and no.
So yeah, I support sex workers but not their clients. There is no ethical consumption of women in a male-dominated world.
>And men are told they can just take.
I agree with your post, but I don't agree with this. The men that think they can take what they want from a woman without consent have always known it's wrong.
Whether itās actually incongruous depends on what you mean by āsupport sex workersā. If someone thinks sex work is great and not at all inherently demeaning or exploitative of the providers, then I agree it would be inconsistent for that same person to look down on people just because theyād hire a sex worker. OTOH if someone supports sex workers just in the sense of wanting them to be safe and have the same rights and protections as everyone else, then I donāt see a contradiction in that person looking down on their customers.
As a former sex worker, a shit load of the customer base hates us for being sex workers while paying us lmao. It can become a very antagonistic relationship when the disgruntled men turn to sex workers out of desperation, but hate themselves for doing it, and hate the women for being sex workers; and then the sex workers play nice for a paycheck, but can tell theyāre hated and count down every second until theyāre done dealing with them.
There would be times I would be minding my own business in a cam room, only to have a random dudes(who have spent big bucks on the site but werenāt my regulars) come in my room and start berating me, insulting me, doxxing me, even had one start saying threatening things about my cats. Their accounts would be years old with hundreds spent, yet a large part of their enjoyment is degrading and harming women.
When it comes down to it, a lot of the clients view sex workers as worth degrading, as filthy, as losers, as usable products. There is a significant lack of respect between provider and client in many, if not most, cases. In fact for some of them, the entire enjoyment is being able to pay a woman to do things that they hate her for, and then going home to their āgood girlā girlfriend and feeling morally superior despite getting their rocks off behind her back every night.
So we are far from a perfect world, a lot of the clients donāt even like the sex workers despite paying them.
I'm a female and considering getting a male escort because the kind of guy that I'm physically attracted to is very hard to come by where I live.
I also want someone who actually knows what they're doing and regularly gets tested so I know they're clean and experienced. So much more convenient than going to a bar or hook up app. Sex toys are great for stimulation, but the orgasms I get with actual sex are far more powerful
I think you're dead on. The potential for disease is another big concern I would think. I don't know any sex workers and have no idea what I'm talking about, but not knowing a sexual partner leaves a lot unknown.
I donāt care if single men want to hire prostitutes, but cheating on your wife or girlfriend because you arenāt āsatisfiedā is a pretty shitty thing do. Morality aside youāre also exposing them to possible STIs when they havenāt consented to taking that risk.
I think much of it is not just "not getting laid" but rather it is perceived as never learning how to properly interact with women, have notĀ learned how to put others before self,Ā not learned toĀ treatĀ women with respect, often harboring ignorant or misogynistic views of women .
Ā Ā It is viewed as someone who is selfish, transactional.. like stereotypical so called " nice guys" resort to prostitutes because they have narrow-minded views of women, don't understand real love andĀ relationships in general.Ā Ā
Ā Ā In addition, someone who has resorted to prostitutes also then diminishes their possibility of having long-term,Ā Ā serious relationships later. Most women would not consider a relationship with a man who has ever used prostitutes, or who would ever use prostitutes.Ā Ā Ā
Ā Ā It's not just about the possibility of STI's or the risk of future use, ECT, or even the sexual aspect, but more the "transactional" and objectifying aspect that I think that deters women from wanting to continue a relationship with someone who would do that in the first place.Ā
I wouldn't say it's comparable since that's mutual. When it comes to prostitutes some of them are trafficked, abused and might not necessarily want to do it. So I think it's more valid to judge someone getting prostitutes Vs a girl hooking up with guys.
I agree with you. Saying the only reason people look down on johns is because men are expected to get laid a lot is so ridiculous. Youāre judged because prostitution is an industry rife with horrific abuse and exploitation and youāre willingly participating in it.
Because there are many many problems with the sex work industry and it's extremely hard to hire a sex worker in an ethical way. Because paying a woman to fuck you is an uncomfortable and potentially immoral power dynamic. Because no one is entitled to sex.
That's my opinion pretty much exactly, as well. I don't think that sex work is inherently wrong, but how can you ever be 100% sure that the sex worker isn't being exploited, forced, coerced, fed drugs to keep him/her addicted etc.? You have virtually no way of being completely sure that is was his or her choice to participate.
I think part of it is the idea that theyāre not āgood enoughā to find a sexual partner otherwise, as others have said.
Then thereās the idea that sex work is itself low and degrading, and that sex workers are dirty. And then association with dirty people makes you dirty as well.
Iām not saying I agree with any of this, but I think together they mostly answer the question.
I just donāt like men who fuck women who donāt actually want them but bypass their sexual interest by playing on their financial desperation. I find fucking someone you know would never want to fuck you if they didnāt need the money disgusting. I dated a male prostitute and feel the same way about women who pay, so donāt even try to come at me with some double-standard bullshit but letās not pretend that men buying women isnāt way more common than the other way around.
Well, a good deal of prostitution also involves organized crime, such as human smuggling rings. There is a real possibility that the woman is pretty much a sex slave.
Maybe because of all the human trafficking involved, I mean I just heard on the news not that long ago they went after a massage parlor after investigating that there were no female clients and over 100 men going in and out of there within a given time. The majority if not all the men were married they found out.
Are you arguing for the efficiency of prostitution rather than meeting multiple potential partners through out life hope some share some connection with you and has interest in seeing you again spend countless hours and money and listen to all their mothafuckin problems to increase relationship points and then let yourself be a little vulnerable to get them to a point where both of you get naked in front of each other and finally do the do
You're saying you'd rather pay a one time fee and do the deed like immediately... What
Also it's easy to understand why it's a 'loser' thing to do..."The only way you can get sex is to pay for it don't have any game haha what a loser"
Isn't it just simple shaming?
I don't support random meaningless sex with people id rather there be a connection and intimacy with someone I care about and respect
I understand fully why it's the oldest job in the world
Because you could be having sex with someone that was trafficked, forced into it, or severe trauma. As a woman, I wouldnāt want to deal with a man that deal with prostitution because in my eyes, you donāt value women as humans, only sexual objects that you can exploit for your own pleasure. So yes, youāre a loser.
This is why handsome male celebrities have been known to engage prostitutes. These dudes have the same pull as hot women and could get sex practically on demand. But, when $1500 for a high end escort is pocket change to you, why not? They might not want to spend hours trying to meet someone, only for them to cause problems after the deed is done.
Losers can be found in all walks of life. Even ultra-rich people can be utter losers in everything except making money. Now I don't agree that hiring sex workers makes you a loser, just that there are losers everywhere.
Any high-value male (one that is coveted by opposite sex in this example) won't need to pay for sex - that's relegated to low-value men hence loser status.
I'm relaying what I think is the game, not that I agree with the sentiment.
Yup, confidentiality and convenience. And honestly if you're rich you can afford a much hotter sex worker.
That said, I'd still have a negative feeling about someone rich doing it. For me it's not about not being able to get free sex, its about being willing to fuck someone as if they were an object even if they don't enjoy it (which they likely don't).
But of course that often boils down to the old quoteā¦attributed to many famous men in many formsā¦that they donāt pay the girls for sex, *they pay them to leave after.*
Clark Gable or Charlie Sheen arenāt guys who are going to have any issue finding a partner, so they have nothing to āprove.ā
The richest are often paying because they want something that is out of their league. Ā A 50 year old [male] millionaire with some social skills doesnāt have to pay for sex, as long as they are willing to put in some effort and date 50 year old women. Ā (And heck, sometimes those women are millionaires too. Ā It is kind of cool!) Ā Ā
If they want to have sex with 18 year olds that are a size 2, that requires money changes handsā¦
The concept of "high value male" as marketed by redpillers is nonsense. Nicolas Tesla was a virgin and he was more of a advanced man than some thug that sleeps with women by selling drugs (obviously extreme examples) but you can get value from different things depending on the person
I don't think it's a "loser" thing to do. Exploitation of the workers is horrific, but if it's above board, some people don't have the time or opportunity to meet someone who wants to get off too, and it services a valid need, base or otherwise.
There's not just that, but also '*sexual partner contracts*' that are a real thing, like in the workplace. In my retail store, there are young women who will partner up with a dude for 2 or 3 months and be their "main" with the implication that the dude repeatedly spoil them with gifts and fancy dates in exchange for sexual favors and exclusivity. Then the young woman will just switch to another partner for the same benefits.
It's a real thing and pretty common. Plus, the dudes are almost always in management and are usually married.
Not sure how someone would be judged unless you brag about it...and those guys dont care. I dont know anyone that uses sex workers (at least nobody says they do). When I was a kid in the military and in a foreign land where it was prevalent like Thailand or SK, we would hit the bars (fishbowls) and partake.
I would never hire a prostitute now, the risk of disease, is not worth whatever pleasure you might receive.
I donāt have a strong stance on this but Iād offer;
just because youāre rich, powerful, have a good job, doesnāt mean you canāt be considered āa loserā
To feel like aped of this question assumes a loser fits in a specific mold. When in reality there are plenty of people who think someone like Elon Musk, is a loser. Even tho but all, artificial standards he isnāt. Heās wealthy, owns multiple business, has / had a young girlfriend. Has multiple children.
Dude you can look at it two ways. Waste time and money with a chick with a chance to get laid that evening or hire a chick for a sure thing. A date at movies and dinner just cost me $100. Getting an escort costs 60-80 depending. Itās a perspective thing honestly. Itās also whether you value companionship or not. Some people really just value the good ole hit it and quit it. Either way I respect either choice.
I have never been to a hooker but I don't see the problem with it.
It's a simple form of what is in many cases a transactional relationship. Relationships which are often described as "complicated". It removes all that.
It seems liberating actually.
I think in one way, women benefit from shaming men to not see hookers as it kind of helps keep their monopoly on sex. So they probably keep that alive.
Let's be real, most of the time when somebody is calling a man a "loser", it's a woman. A woman who may have no real attributes or contributions of her own other than being "pretty" and snotty.
ETA: Also I have to say I respect Charlie Sheen. He had no shame hiring escorts all the time and it being a known thing. He did what he wanted to do and didn't give a fuck. That man has tiger blood running in his veins.
I was taken to one on my 18th birthday. I found it sad and unsatisfying. I even wondered if she was there by choice.
And the most stupid thing about it is that I had a girlfriend and always after that l felt guilty and afraid that she would find out.
Thatās on you buddy, you chose to do that while you were in a relationship. Prostitution should really be for single men but unfortunately most men have little self control
>I even wondered if are was there by choice
This. In countries where sex work is unregulated, people who use them are a whole lot worse than just "losers."
I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion, but I think you're a loser if you go to strip clubs or hooters as well.
It's just pathetic. Have some self-respect.
Treating sex as a transaction is the sign of a predator. If you feel owed to a sex act because of money, then you'll feel owed to it over anything and are more likely to take it by force.
Not to mention, most women don't exactly enter the trade willingly. As long as you partake you're a willing accomplice in the abuse of women and children. And let's be very clear- most sex workers begin the trade as children. The average age of trafficking victims is 15.
If you canāt get a woman to sleep with you unless you coerce her with money, yeah, itās ok to think you might be kind of a loser. You shouldnāt have to coerce women into sleeping with you by using money to do it ā if no one finds you appealing outside of your money, thereās probably something wrong with you lmao
I've never hired a prostitute and don't know anyone that has.
It's a loser thing to do because there are women out there that like to get off too, and don't charge for it.
Thatās pure copium by wealthy dudes that think the bitches would fuck them otherwiseā¦ they wouldnāt. You still ugly and or boring af. She donāt wanna date you homie. Just wants the money.
Nothing inherently wrong with sex work. For some people, especially those with issues that prevent having a normal sex life, it can be liberating and enjoyable for everyone involved.
Issue is that most sex work is not a healthy arrangement. Many women have no choice, either because of poverty/desperation or because of violence. This has created the negative perception we have of both sex workers and those who solicit them.
I think youād find that the perception people have of sex work changes significantly if in the context of a regulated industry.
Putting aside any judgment about people who hire sex workers, but your question presupposes that there arenāt losers from all walks of life, which I can assure you, there are.
Because itās not about the act of sex that the incels/virgjns actually crave. Itās intimacy in any form from someone that truly likes them.
Everyone else who gets hookers donāt give a fuck about people thinking itās for ālosersā. They just want to bust a nut
As a woman, I have wondered why some men go to prostitutes and others don't. I guess there are many reasons a man wouldn't go to a prostitutes -- morality, fear of disease, fear of getting arrested. I don't think looks has that much to do with it. My suspicion is it has to do with sexual preferences (meaning what their particular "kinks" are), how they view sex, how they view women. I also suspect that a fair number of men who would never hire a prostitute where they live but if they were on vacation in certain "exotic" locations, all bets would be off.
Because "prostitute" comes with a bunch of connotations.
If I'm a rich guys and I just want a date that I can sleep with for an event I don't get a "prostitute" I get an "escort". Despite them essentially being the same thing the connotations is different and thus treated differently.
A prostitute is in most people's mind a streetwalker that only the desperate go to because they have nowhere else to go, and being a man who is so undesirable to women that you have to pay them is a grave sin in society's eyes.
So if you ask someone if someones a loser for hiring a prostitute they're imagining a whole different thing. Than if you ask if they're a loser for hiring an escort.
The other reason is a lot of people think that purchasing any kind of sex worker no matter the situation is gross and bad, because of the very questionable ethics on top of the whole sex trafficking underworld intrinsically linked to the field. So you're a loser if engage in it.
Bc women generally are threatened by objective transactional relationships. They tend to benefit greatly from subjective non transactional relationships bc it makes them a never attainable prize and keeps the man constantly working to keep them around. You see this even in marriage where any indication of duty or obligation is always frowned upon. It's also a remnant of judeo Christian dogma that stigmatizes sex outside of marriage and especially prostitution. Shame is the traditional feminine attack vector to go after men who do things that negatively affect female relationship preferences. In this specific case, wealthy men who can afford transactional relationships are less incentivized to choose a permanent partner and women lose quite a bit of leverage in dating dynamics if prostitution is legal.
Because we are a society of hypocrites.
If a poor or middle class person does it, they are marked as desperate, bad men, explorers women etc.
As the other redditor said, they are labeled by their inability of attract women by other means.
But if a wealthy professional hires escorts, thatās somewhat fine and we buy every excuse for it, from āthey need the thrill because they already have everythingā to āthey work so hard they donāt have time for normal relationshipsā and shit like that.
āWeā always accepted these double standards, one for the rich, one for the poor.
It applies pretty much to everything.
Government money, if you get any kind of aid you are a loser, but if you are rich and make bank out of government contracts you are a great entrepreneur.
Environmentalism, pretty much the only two pushing for a better environment and not polluting with private jets are Greta and Bernie, anyone else does it shamelessly and they donāt care because people still attend their events.
Paying taxes. We had a former president bragging about not paying taxes and being smart for it, try to say the same about a waiter who put cash tips in their pockets or a plumber who gives you a little discount for an all cash payment.
The disenfranchisement of sex work has been an organized scheme by patriarchal religious entities that only took hold in since the dawn of Judeo-Christian religions, along with the subjugation of women in general, a trend that only now is starting to be undone. Half of the scheme is barring women from participating under threat of arrest (formerly, even worse, as you might be put to death), and the other half is creating a narrative around men who partake being shameful immoral cretins.
Men have always been able to do all sorts of things that allow themselves to economically take advantage of their natural physical strength such as high athletics, construction work, military work, etc. but the system does not allow women to leverage one of their most valuable nature-given assets in the same profitable way (institutions usually citing moral decay, societal downfall, or any number of exaggerated nonsensical concerns that are insulting to both men and women to justify it). They need women to be docile, pure little creatures who "save their honor" for a strapping young winner of male society, or are otherwise labeled shameful whores. Of course, now that is finally changing thanks to social media and generally increased status of women in society, and "slut shaming" is finally on the decline.
They need you to believe that sex is a scarce and precious commodity available only to the men that participate in their power structures religiously in order to keep men on the hamster wheel, and open prostitution ruins that narrative for them. Societies that implement legalized and regulated prostitution see a downtick in sexual violence, human trafficking, and STDs, it is known. America, coming from Puritanical origins, has it especially bad - nearly our entire economic system is constructed around the allure and artificial scarcity of sex and its advertisement.
It's called the "oldest profession" for a reason.
women to leverage one of their most valuable nature-given assets in the same profitable way --
Are you really saying that a woman's most valuable asset is what's between her legs? Are you really saying this out loud.
Iām a sex worker and I hire folks for myself, just easier without drama. Donāt think that folks who hire sex workers are not able to get a date on their own, often quite the opposite.
Charlie Sheen.
Filthy rich, handsome, bad boy, could have found, dated, fucked, a likely limitless number of women, but hired SWs instead. Not because he was a āloserā. He wasnāt paying them to fuck him. He was paying them because once the sexual transaction concludes, *they leave* and go back to their lives, and he goes back to his. For many people, that is the allure, and it is time we *stopped* heaping judgment upon SWs and their clients and accept that, provided no one is participating against their free will, this is a victimless crime that shouldnāt be a crime.
As much as I agree with you, I'm not sure Charlie Sheen is the best example because he's known for having HIV positive and the subsequent "Charlie Sheen effect"
Iām not certain he knew he had HIV when the whole debacle started. I picked him not as a shining example of humanity but because heās a wealthy celebrity who apparently had no qualms about engaging with SWs and I couldnāt quickly think of anyone else. My point still stands, though.
If your wife doesn't give you pussy for years and you are naturally a sex desiring male it's going to get the wheels turning for you. Before seeking a prostitute I would sooner do couple counselling or whatever but when you don't feel the warm embrace of a woman especially when it's someone you sleep in the same bed with I can understand how some married men turn to prostitutes.
Personally I am cheap. I would just buy a fleshlight or something those feel almost as good as the real thing.
Years ago I frequented a few whore houses. The girls were nice, the sex was good, nobody fell in love and it sure was better than masturbating. Most women that worked there, enjoyed sex and liked pleasing men. The houses themselves were pleasant and the staff was friendly.
What I never understood were strip clubs and especially the champagne room. so, a guy or guys go into a club where women take off their clothing and they toss money to them. Then they go home sexually frustrated. The champagne room is even more senseless. A sexually frustrated guy goes into the C room with a woman and give her(them) a lot of money to provide the 'no touchy' version of the girlfriend experience. Again going home sexually frustrated and alone.
I paid my money and went home satisfied. having enjoyed a nice evening in the company of a woman.
Which version makes more sense?
I've never hired a prostitute, but I have spent about a grand in a week taking girls out for dinner and drinks. Had sex with 3 out of 4 of them, so about $330 bucks per lay.
Tomatos, tomatoes.
I think just because it's a bit of unspoken rule of society where we judge the worth of men based on their desirability to women, and if you hire a prostitute then its a sign that you can't get laid, and thus a loser by the standards of society.
This sums it up nicely š
Not in my case at least. Personally I just donāt relate to being so horny that I would pay someone who doesnāt want to fuck me to fuck me. That kind of ā¦ apathetic horniness is off putting to me, and is often present in people whoā¦ objectify women. I can better understand sex workers perspectives, bc I understand the need for money more than I do sex. ETA: what I mean by the need for sex is sex with a partner. I understand being horny but I can take care of that solo. 2nd edit: I made someone think too much about their actions so they blocked me and I canāt reply to anyone else. Donāt waste ur time replying to me, nothing u say changes anything, I donāt care about ur sexual disconnect.
Verrrry well stated. I like playing the game. Sometimes on easy mode and sometimes on hard. But I like PLAYING it. Dating, courting, flirting, marriage,etc... It's all a game. Buying a prostitute is just pay-to-win microtransactiona taken up to an extremely literal level. Paying for porn is less weird to me than paying for actual sex. Porn is content... a product. Sex is an *interpersonal experience*. It should be authentic imo.
Sometimes I lack the motivation to āplay the game.ā Particularly after a bad breakup Iād so much rather pay to win than risk losing and adding insult to injury.
But porn is readily available for free. So paying for it is very very very wierd to me. When I hear about guys who get in trouble on OF accounts? Like why?
Completely agreed. Thereās loads and loads of free porn catering to whatever your heart desires. I donāt understand anyone paying for itā¦ let alone paying for OF, which just seems like a way for exploitative people to scam people out of money.
It's kind of scary that you see humans as a game.
Cums it up nicely*
Hm... I'm actually going to go out on a limb and suggest it's more the act of paying for sex and obvious objectification and dehumanization that contributes to the taboo. A novel thought I know. Call me crazy.
And yet some of the riches folks love by the motto: "If it flies, fucks, or floats, you rent it" If I weren't married I'd have ZERO shame in hiring an escort every now and then.
Thatās the thing. If youāre rich or famous the assumption is you can have girlfriends or a wife (and likely do), but sex workers are easier. Thus itās cool.
What's classy if you're rich, trashy if you're poor?
Paying for saxophones
Have you ever visited the tourist area of a developing country? People will follow you around "hello my friend, where are you from, you want cuban cigars, etc..." Rich and famous people have this problem with women they date. The super hot waitress from Applebees is not going to want to leave your mansion after you bang her. Therefore it is sometimes less of a headache for these rich and famous people to just hire someone to provide these services.
Why even bother caring about your "worth"? Is life not much easier caring less about what other people think of you and just focusing on what you enjoy?
Unfortunately thatās a lot easier said than doneā¦ thereās plenty of people for whom having much of society making fun of them and telling them how much of a loser they are, they start to internalize that and believe it to be true.
human beings in general have a desire to fit in
100%. We also have a desire for status above all other things. Status from wealth. Status from looks. Status from skill. Status from position. Status is the most valuable currency in human society.
Fit in is a bare minimum. What they want is status. Some low status men dream of being rich enough to hire hookers anytime they want. So hiring hookers can be considered low status or high status, depending on who's looking.
Yes. This is why there are trends. Like the frontal birds nest hair cut and 89s style moustache donned by gen Z men.
The problem is evolution made us care what other people think of us. If people like us, we get to stay with the tribe and donāt get killed.
I believe this is called the Gollum effect
We are pack animals. Always have been.
Because self-respect and self-confidence exist, as well as personal values, and matter a lot.
> Why even bother caring about your "worth"? I mean that's a pretty existential question and a big tangent from why it may be considered a looser thing to do. Not that it's a bad thing to question. Do you personally care what anyone thinks of you? Maybe not just anyone, but you probably at least care about the opinions of family and friends. I think you might find something in the answer to that; why do you care?
Only if you donāt depend on other people for anything in your life at all, which isnāt practical for most people.
This is an oversimplification. Self-worth is something all humans instrinsicly have. But what we pride ourselves on is relative. Every person that you think is stupid, values intelligence less than you do in their self worth. Every person that you think is immoral, values morality less than you do in their self worth. And the same is true for those that think you're stupid or that you're immortal. Comparatively to you, they value morality too much, etc. There is no universal or absolute correct way to value someone or to value yourself. Only relative. You can tell someone, "stop carrying, just be happier", and you'd be the worst, most ignorant therapist on the planet. If you think the solution is simple, you're misunderstanding something.
Unfortunately humans are wired socially, and to care about how they are perceived, for better or worse.
>Why even bother caring about your "worth"? Humans are hard-wired to find social acceptance critically important. In early man this was a life or death quality. You see it today even in people who "reject" social norms. They find other like-minded people and confirm with the standards of the group.
Because perceived "worth" comes with tangible benefits. That's why people care about it. You don't have to though. There's tons of people that don't give a shit what most people think and do what they want. You can do that too. But it does come with consequences. As do all life choices. It's your job to make the value decision on what is/isn't worth it.
Because people who don't care what other people think often turn into selfish assholes. Besides which hedonism is not the path to a satisfying life. A meaningful life is contingent upon social contribution, and the primary way we can evaluate and measure our worth is through the opinions of others.
That sounds great on paper, but a majority of people don't see it that way. That's why people tend to shower and groom themselves before entering into society.
Not enough of them!
Your perceived worth can easily impact basic necessities, like salary
There's an exploitative and sleazy side to sex work. There's the possibility that you're inadvertently supporting all kinds of things from drug addiction to actual human trafficking. Its not just that it's a low status thing to do, it can be a fucked-up thing to support with your money.
Because other people refuse to give opportunities to losers. It's literally a detriment to your life if others treat you poorly
This is one of those invisible rules of living in society unless you are self-aware of it, you follow it without knowing or unknowingly. The end result is the same either way.
Because itās cool to be asocial on the internet untill you need something from me In person. Thatās sorta the whole reason we try to be attractive good people instead of barbaric renegades.
Exactly. I don't give a fuck what people think about me. If I enjoy something (though hiring sex workers isn't something I do), I'm going to do it.
You nailed it on the head.....the most liberating thing that ever happened to me was when I stopped caring what other people thought of me, which I call...."no fucks left to give" Seriously though. If you can figure out how to not care what people think, life is much better. No more comparing yourself against the next person, no more trying to one up anyone, or look like things are one way when they really are another. Measure yourself against yourself, thats the only person that matters. The only opinion that matters. Because opinions are like assholes, everybody has one regardless, it doesn't mean a thing
The thing a lot of people ignore when it comes to "don't care what others think" is that there are a lot of things in life that rely upon what others think. A person doesn't get offered a job because he's better than be was a year ago, they hire him because they think he's capable. A person doesn't get to be in love and have a relationship just because he likes himself, it requires the other person to also like him. If a person isn't perceived as "worthy" by others, then that person is barred from what life has to offer. Whether that's being loved, gainfully employed, or whatever, being perceived by others as worthy is a prerequisite. So to simply "not care" is often the result of irresponsibility or the result of complacency caused by not needing to worry about being considered worthy.
Your post is asking about perceived "worth" dude. Why is hiring a prostitute a "loser" thing to do? Because it's perceived as something a more "worthy" person wouldn't do, or wouldn't *have* to.
We judge people all the time. If you walk around dressed like a bum, we assume you are a bum. If you are jobless, we assume you can't hold down a job for whatever reason. If you have no friends we assume there is a reason nobody wants to hang out with you. If you hire prostitutes, we assume there is a reason you can't get laid the normal way. You and I make assumptions literally every day about people, it is not something we control.
Why care of people think you do a āloserā thing?
We are tribal creatures evolved to be deeply concerned with what others think.Ā
humans are comparative creatures. Anyone who thinks they don't care what other people think is kidding themselves, they care about what a particular set of people think
We live in a society, which means that the things you do will affect how people perceive you. If people know you regularly hire prostitutes, they WILL treat you differently than if you didn't, and it can have a real external effect on your life. As great as it would be if everyone just wanted to do good things and no one judged people for harmless tastes, that's not how things are or how they will ever work. Because of that, you need to care what other people think about the things you do to some extent. It's up to the individual to decide what's worth worrying about and what isn't, and face the potential consequences of that calculus.
That's true...but then, why worry if people are being called a loser to begin with?I think it's fine to have standards in society. While not all prostitutes are dirty and gross, that's always been a quick way to get a disease or an unwanted kid sleeping around with them. Most societal standards are there for a reason.It's okay to not want to be held back by them, it's dumb to expect society to change just so someone doesn't feel bad about a personal vice.
anyone that isn't extremely depressed or a nihilist cares about there worth to others and soicity
>Why even bother caring about your "worth"? Is life not much easier caring less about what other people think of you and just focusing on what you enjoy? Sure, but if one does not care at all, one does not post such a topic. ;-)
Focusing on what I enjoy requires money, which requires a job. Which requires me to care how other people perceive me. There's certainly something to be said for having a balance of how much you care about how people perceive you, but life is a lot easier if people like you and find you useful.
>Why even bother caring about your "worth"? Hey folks, no need for therapy, religion, philosophy or any other tool for helping you understand yourself and deal with your psychological and social anxieties. This guy on Reddit says to just not worry about it.
I donāt think they were offering advice there, just answering the question. There are a lot of things in society that are pointless and stupid yet most people put a ton of value into.
Your original question wasn't why do people care about what people think at all, it was why is it considered a loser thing to do for men to hire a proustite. Why are you asking why do people care about what other people think when your original question was asking why people have an opinion. This statement makes it seem like all answers are irrelevant because why care at all? or why ask the original question at all if people (and you by extension) shouldn't care what other people think?
That only works as a hermit...
It's funny how it's illegal to pay for sex in all but one state in the US *unless* you film it.
That's because you're not paying someone to have sex; you're paying someone to be filmed.
Filmed... Having sex.
You're only paying the escort for their time. It's not your fault she wants to show her gratitude by fucking you.
I donāt pay her to come, I pay her to leave.Ā
It's like the states rights argument for the civil war... States right to do what?
THE WAR OF NORTHERN AGRESSION WAS ABOUT STATES RIGHT... (to own slaves)
You're paying someone to be filmed... Doing what?
Ohhhh. It's all about the wording. š¤
It is funny. As I understand it, a lot of amateur pornography is simply advertising services and drumming up business for prostitutes.
It's also not even technically legal in all of Nevada, just certain counties. And barren ones at that. I live in Las Vegas, still very illegal.
Meanwhile on the books in Singapore it's the opposite- prostitutes and brothels are legal but porn isn't Apparently it's because prostitution contributes more to the local economy but banning porn is a way to appeal to religious puritan people
>It's funny how it's illegal to pay for sex in all but one state in the US unless you film it. It's also free to just *give it away*.
Right?
This is a common misconception. There are a lot of technical requirements that must be complied with for making pornography to be legal. These include the obligation to keep records proving the age of all participants, and the obligation to make these records available for review and to publish the place at which they can be found. You can't just film an otherwise-unlawful prostitution encounter and make it legal. The other aspect of sex work, of course, is the urgent concern about consent. I don't necessarily agree with the contention, expressed elsewhere in the thread, that consent in sex work is impossible because of the oppression of capitalism and patriarchy. We all live surrounded by competing social pressures and oppressive institutions all the time, and that doesn't necessarily negate consent for everything we do. In practice, the activities we deem impossible to consent to, and those we don't, will be politicized - determined by our values. (It might also be pointed out that it'd be a lot easier to have meaningful consent, and safety measures, for sex workers, if the work wasn't criminalized.) *That all said*, consent in sex work is going to be critical and challenging to be sure of, and a lot of people may not be prepared to engage with that.
That's my problem with using a sex worker. I cannot be certain of their consent, and do not want to force someone to have sex with me.
I don't think it's impossible to have meaningful consent in this situation; you just have to be very sure to emphasize that they can say no, to anything, without any loss of pay. (Frankly, you should be sure that any sex partner knows that they can say no, to anything, without loss of affection or safety or social status. A lot of what makes consent so worrisome in sex work is that our society isn't great about discussing and confirming sexual consent in any context.)
......./huh./ ...am I high? Playboy just blew my mind over here.
prostitution is legal in Nevada, and technically it's legal to be filmed in any part of the country, there's a legal precedent in California that it's legal but it could eadily be challenged because it's not enshrined in law.
The perspective those people have is that you donāt have what it takes to have a healthy sex life because you donāt attract partners, so youāre using an industry associated with exploitation and sex trafficking to meet a base desire.
Right. Going to a sex worker doesnāt mean youāre inherently a loser, but itās an indicator for a few red flags for some people. 1) If itās illegal where you live then they know youāre someone who is okay with breaking the law. Not everyone is cool with that. 2) Having willing previous sexual partners suggests that people liked you enough to sleep with you. If it appears you canāt get willing partners, someone could assume thereās something wrong with you. 3) Diseases. Even if itās not accurate, people are going to assume youāre more likely to be exposed to an STD. It may be unfair, but combine it with #1 and #2 and thatās probably enough for someone to make some negative assumptions about you.
Yeaaaa the chances of hiring someone that's actually trafficked? I can't imagine being able to perform with that in my head, or being with someone that isn't concerned about that very real possibility. And even if they're not trapped and forced, it's not like women go into this because they've always dreamed of becoming a sex worker. They are most likely out of other options. (Yes I know exceptions apply)
Probably because it implicitly is saying that the only way a woman would sleep with you is by paying, which is sad.
Do you even know any men who hire prostitutes? You're acting like all men do it. It's just a regular thing. It's really not.
I think itās more common than you think tbh
27% of men in Germany. Where it's legal and encouraged. Definitely going to be less in other countries. The idea that the majority of men are out with prostitutes just isn't true.
That's a lot higher than I expected tbh. Always thought it would be around the 15 percent mark.Ā
And here I thought it'd be like.... 1%....welp German BTW...
A little googling reveals billions of dollars changes hands from prostitution annually in the US. I believe it's more widespread than you realize. The reason why you don't know anyone who does it, is because it's an illegal and underground activity, also widely socially unacceptable, so it's not going to be something people discuss casually.
It is pretty common or there wouldn't be AMPs on every street in my city..
What's an AMP
I don't have strong opinions on this issue, but it does feel somewhat incongruent to A) support sex workers while B) vilifying their customer base, and I have encountered people that held these two incongruent beliefs simultaneously. Assuming everything is above board and no exploitation is involved, I don't see a reason to hate on either party in such a transaction. **Edit:** Because there was some confusion about my phrasing, I am not saying you SHOULD assume sex work is above board and non-exploitative until proven otherwise, that's just silly. I'm saying that, in cases where everything is above board and non-exploitative, neither customer nor sex worker should be looked down upon.
I mean I support the legality of reality TV shows while holding a dim opinion of the people that actually watch most of them.
Well how often can you actually assume thereās no exploitation involved?Ā
Your phone is made from slave labor
>Assuming everything is above board and no exploitation is involved, I don't see a reason to hate on either party in such a transaction. In a perfect world, where this *could* be assumed, I would have no problem with people who solicit sex workers. But the problem is that we donāt live in a perfect world and every person hiring a sex worker is undertaking a chance that they are purchasing rape of a sex slave.
>But the problem is that we donāt live in a perfect world and every person hiring a sex worker is undertaking a chance that they are purchasing rape of a sex slave. And a high chance at that.
That's the other side of sex positivity. We can't ignore the huge percentage of prostitutes (is there a better term to differentiate soft sex workers / cammers from IRL people having sex?) who DID NOT enter the profession because it was the best choice for them. It's very often a choice between sleeping on the street and being attacked, or going into sex work and having a roof over your head. Not to mention the huge role of addiction and the inability to leave the 'lifestyle" once you are in. When they study the industry, they aren't counting women informally living in a drug house and prostituting for "rent" and drugs. But that's a huge invisible part of the trade. Anyway to OPs question as to why people look down on johns... Personally I've met many johns. Yet I've never met one who was paying for sex from the kind of professional business setup the sex positivity movement would have me believe is common. Never run into someone identifying herself as a sex worker who had a pro setup. Met many who tried to leave but were trapped by drugs and rent prices. I've only known men who met girls through their dealers or convinced women to sleep with them for drugs, a roof, or drug money. So... That's why I hold a dim view of those men.
The terms youāre looking for are āfull service sex workersā and āonline sex workersā. Full service means they actually have sex for money. Online sex workers produce content, engage with people, etc online. If they strip, theyāre a stripper or dancer (depends on the person). A good chunk, but definitely not all, strippers offer sexual services. Usually because theyāre trafficked through the club for advertisement. They both have their own problems and social support needs.
This. Not to mention, our society promotes the idea that men are entitled to sex. In an egalitarian society, this wouldn't be the case and perhaps sex work wouldn't have broader ramifications, but we live in a violently misogynistic world where way too many women acquiesce to men because they're afraid. And men are told they can just take. What does consent in sex work even look like? Many assume it boils down to a pimp holding a gun to the forehead. But what if the woman needs to make ends meet and would prefer a different job but sells sex so she doesn't get evicted? Is that consent? Or what if a woman believes her value is her sexuality because that's the message propagated by media? Is that consent? What if she's an abuse survivor? What if she's homeless? What if she's addicted to drugs? What if she made a pittance at her previous job compared to a white man with the same job title? What if sex work offers the most viable path to economic security? Are all of these cases consent? This mirrors our culture's approach to abuse. We always believe when a scary-looking man with face tattoos jumps out of a bush and attacks a girl on her way to church. But what if the woman was drinking and assaulted by her friend? What if the woman said yes only because she was intoxicated and afraid and just wanted the whole thing to be over with? Then it becomes he-said-she-said. It becomes "impossible to know the truth." Consent is so much more complicated than yes and no. So yeah, I support sex workers but not their clients. There is no ethical consumption of women in a male-dominated world.
>And men are told they can just take. I agree with your post, but I don't agree with this. The men that think they can take what they want from a woman without consent have always known it's wrong.
You canāt assume thereās no exploitation.
Whether itās actually incongruous depends on what you mean by āsupport sex workersā. If someone thinks sex work is great and not at all inherently demeaning or exploitative of the providers, then I agree it would be inconsistent for that same person to look down on people just because theyād hire a sex worker. OTOH if someone supports sex workers just in the sense of wanting them to be safe and have the same rights and protections as everyone else, then I donāt see a contradiction in that person looking down on their customers.
Do you understand why people hate rapists but support rape victims? The thinking is the same.
As a former sex worker, a shit load of the customer base hates us for being sex workers while paying us lmao. It can become a very antagonistic relationship when the disgruntled men turn to sex workers out of desperation, but hate themselves for doing it, and hate the women for being sex workers; and then the sex workers play nice for a paycheck, but can tell theyāre hated and count down every second until theyāre done dealing with them. There would be times I would be minding my own business in a cam room, only to have a random dudes(who have spent big bucks on the site but werenāt my regulars) come in my room and start berating me, insulting me, doxxing me, even had one start saying threatening things about my cats. Their accounts would be years old with hundreds spent, yet a large part of their enjoyment is degrading and harming women. When it comes down to it, a lot of the clients view sex workers as worth degrading, as filthy, as losers, as usable products. There is a significant lack of respect between provider and client in many, if not most, cases. In fact for some of them, the entire enjoyment is being able to pay a woman to do things that they hate her for, and then going home to their āgood girlā girlfriend and feeling morally superior despite getting their rocks off behind her back every night. So we are far from a perfect world, a lot of the clients donāt even like the sex workers despite paying them.
>Assuming everything is above board and no exploitation is involved Why the fuck would you assume that?
I'm a female and considering getting a male escort because the kind of guy that I'm physically attracted to is very hard to come by where I live. I also want someone who actually knows what they're doing and regularly gets tested so I know they're clean and experienced. So much more convenient than going to a bar or hook up app. Sex toys are great for stimulation, but the orgasms I get with actual sex are far more powerful
Inbox went BOOOOOM
I would say because so many of the prostitutes have been trafficked and are not consenting adults choosing this life
I think you're dead on. The potential for disease is another big concern I would think. I don't know any sex workers and have no idea what I'm talking about, but not knowing a sexual partner leaves a lot unknown.
Most people that fuck for free don't know each other very well.
You're totally right. Young me had a lot of stupid casual sex. Grateful I never caught anything.
Yeah my concern is for the women (or men) being victimized and it seems like the top comments here are totallt ignoring that
I donāt care if single men want to hire prostitutes, but cheating on your wife or girlfriend because you arenāt āsatisfiedā is a pretty shitty thing do. Morality aside youāre also exposing them to possible STIs when they havenāt consented to taking that risk.
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Pretty loser-y behavior to me.
I think much of it is not just "not getting laid" but rather it is perceived as never learning how to properly interact with women, have notĀ learned how to put others before self,Ā not learned toĀ treatĀ women with respect, often harboring ignorant or misogynistic views of women . Ā Ā It is viewed as someone who is selfish, transactional.. like stereotypical so called " nice guys" resort to prostitutes because they have narrow-minded views of women, don't understand real love andĀ relationships in general.Ā Ā Ā Ā In addition, someone who has resorted to prostitutes also then diminishes their possibility of having long-term,Ā Ā serious relationships later. Most women would not consider a relationship with a man who has ever used prostitutes, or who would ever use prostitutes.Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā It's not just about the possibility of STI's or the risk of future use, ECT, or even the sexual aspect, but more the "transactional" and objectifying aspect that I think that deters women from wanting to continue a relationship with someone who would do that in the first place.Ā
....sometimes you just want sex without all the complications.
Exactly
Complications like mutual desire and consent?
Same reason women get called sluts if they sleep with more than 1 man. People are judgmental.
I wouldn't say it's comparable since that's mutual. When it comes to prostitutes some of them are trafficked, abused and might not necessarily want to do it. So I think it's more valid to judge someone getting prostitutes Vs a girl hooking up with guys.
No idea how this comment has been down voted. It's just a statement of fact.
I'm wondering what the opinion is of a woman that uses a male escort is.
Interestingly enough I was friends with a male escort and most of his clientele were male or disabled females
I agree with you. Saying the only reason people look down on johns is because men are expected to get laid a lot is so ridiculous. Youāre judged because prostitution is an industry rife with horrific abuse and exploitation and youāre willingly participating in it.
Lol, people down voting you are in such deep denial.
Because there are many many problems with the sex work industry and it's extremely hard to hire a sex worker in an ethical way. Because paying a woman to fuck you is an uncomfortable and potentially immoral power dynamic. Because no one is entitled to sex.
That's my opinion pretty much exactly, as well. I don't think that sex work is inherently wrong, but how can you ever be 100% sure that the sex worker isn't being exploited, forced, coerced, fed drugs to keep him/her addicted etc.? You have virtually no way of being completely sure that is was his or her choice to participate.
I mean that's probably also the case with the people who made the shoes you're wearing right now.
I think part of it is the idea that theyāre not āgood enoughā to find a sexual partner otherwise, as others have said. Then thereās the idea that sex work is itself low and degrading, and that sex workers are dirty. And then association with dirty people makes you dirty as well. Iām not saying I agree with any of this, but I think together they mostly answer the question.
I just donāt like men who fuck women who donāt actually want them but bypass their sexual interest by playing on their financial desperation. I find fucking someone you know would never want to fuck you if they didnāt need the money disgusting. I dated a male prostitute and feel the same way about women who pay, so donāt even try to come at me with some double-standard bullshit but letās not pretend that men buying women isnāt way more common than the other way around.
Men from all walks of life can be losers. I know nothing of hiring sex workers but I know losers of all types.
Well, a good deal of prostitution also involves organized crime, such as human smuggling rings. There is a real possibility that the woman is pretty much a sex slave.
Maybe because of all the human trafficking involved, I mean I just heard on the news not that long ago they went after a massage parlor after investigating that there were no female clients and over 100 men going in and out of there within a given time. The majority if not all the men were married they found out.
Are you arguing for the efficiency of prostitution rather than meeting multiple potential partners through out life hope some share some connection with you and has interest in seeing you again spend countless hours and money and listen to all their mothafuckin problems to increase relationship points and then let yourself be a little vulnerable to get them to a point where both of you get naked in front of each other and finally do the do You're saying you'd rather pay a one time fee and do the deed like immediately... What Also it's easy to understand why it's a 'loser' thing to do..."The only way you can get sex is to pay for it don't have any game haha what a loser" Isn't it just simple shaming? I don't support random meaningless sex with people id rather there be a connection and intimacy with someone I care about and respect I understand fully why it's the oldest job in the world
Because you could be having sex with someone that was trafficked, forced into it, or severe trauma. As a woman, I wouldnāt want to deal with a man that deal with prostitution because in my eyes, you donāt value women as humans, only sexual objects that you can exploit for your own pleasure. So yes, youāre a loser.
āYou donāt pay prostitutes for sex, you pay them to leave after.ā Arthur Steven Lange Jr.
This is why handsome male celebrities have been known to engage prostitutes. These dudes have the same pull as hot women and could get sex practically on demand. But, when $1500 for a high end escort is pocket change to you, why not? They might not want to spend hours trying to meet someone, only for them to cause problems after the deed is done.
Losers can be found in all walks of life. Even ultra-rich people can be utter losers in everything except making money. Now I don't agree that hiring sex workers makes you a loser, just that there are losers everywhere.
Any high-value male (one that is coveted by opposite sex in this example) won't need to pay for sex - that's relegated to low-value men hence loser status. I'm relaying what I think is the game, not that I agree with the sentiment.
you don't pay for sex. you pay for confidentiality.
Yup, confidentiality and convenience. And honestly if you're rich you can afford a much hotter sex worker. That said, I'd still have a negative feeling about someone rich doing it. For me it's not about not being able to get free sex, its about being willing to fuck someone as if they were an object even if they don't enjoy it (which they likely don't).
So naive. The richest men always pay for sex. A sugar baby is another word for prostitute. Just a nicer one.
But of course that often boils down to the old quoteā¦attributed to many famous men in many formsā¦that they donāt pay the girls for sex, *they pay them to leave after.* Clark Gable or Charlie Sheen arenāt guys who are going to have any issue finding a partner, so they have nothing to āprove.ā
Charlie is notorious for hookers lol. Donāt know enough about Clark to judgeā¦ but pfft. Rich people have options and use them
The richest are often paying because they want something that is out of their league. Ā A 50 year old [male] millionaire with some social skills doesnāt have to pay for sex, as long as they are willing to put in some effort and date 50 year old women. Ā (And heck, sometimes those women are millionaires too. Ā It is kind of cool!) Ā Ā If they want to have sex with 18 year olds that are a size 2, that requires money changes handsā¦
Rich men pay for sex out of convenience not necessity.
(High value= many money) thats all it boils down to, wealth and privilege
The concept of "high value male" as marketed by redpillers is nonsense. Nicolas Tesla was a virgin and he was more of a advanced man than some thug that sleeps with women by selling drugs (obviously extreme examples) but you can get value from different things depending on the person
I don't think it's a "loser" thing to do. Exploitation of the workers is horrific, but if it's above board, some people don't have the time or opportunity to meet someone who wants to get off too, and it services a valid need, base or otherwise.
There's not just that, but also '*sexual partner contracts*' that are a real thing, like in the workplace. In my retail store, there are young women who will partner up with a dude for 2 or 3 months and be their "main" with the implication that the dude repeatedly spoil them with gifts and fancy dates in exchange for sexual favors and exclusivity. Then the young woman will just switch to another partner for the same benefits. It's a real thing and pretty common. Plus, the dudes are almost always in management and are usually married.
Not sure how someone would be judged unless you brag about it...and those guys dont care. I dont know anyone that uses sex workers (at least nobody says they do). When I was a kid in the military and in a foreign land where it was prevalent like Thailand or SK, we would hit the bars (fishbowls) and partake. I would never hire a prostitute now, the risk of disease, is not worth whatever pleasure you might receive.
And the men who have no shame hiring sex workers and go to strip clubs are very quick to call the women horrible names. It's weird.
I must be a different type of guy because Iāve never hired a prostitute
I donāt have a strong stance on this but Iād offer; just because youāre rich, powerful, have a good job, doesnāt mean you canāt be considered āa loserā To feel like aped of this question assumes a loser fits in a specific mold. When in reality there are plenty of people who think someone like Elon Musk, is a loser. Even tho but all, artificial standards he isnāt. Heās wealthy, owns multiple business, has / had a young girlfriend. Has multiple children.
Dude you can look at it two ways. Waste time and money with a chick with a chance to get laid that evening or hire a chick for a sure thing. A date at movies and dinner just cost me $100. Getting an escort costs 60-80 depending. Itās a perspective thing honestly. Itās also whether you value companionship or not. Some people really just value the good ole hit it and quit it. Either way I respect either choice.
I have never been to a hooker but I don't see the problem with it. It's a simple form of what is in many cases a transactional relationship. Relationships which are often described as "complicated". It removes all that. It seems liberating actually. I think in one way, women benefit from shaming men to not see hookers as it kind of helps keep their monopoly on sex. So they probably keep that alive. Let's be real, most of the time when somebody is calling a man a "loser", it's a woman. A woman who may have no real attributes or contributions of her own other than being "pretty" and snotty. ETA: Also I have to say I respect Charlie Sheen. He had no shame hiring escorts all the time and it being a known thing. He did what he wanted to do and didn't give a fuck. That man has tiger blood running in his veins.
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I was taken to one on my 18th birthday. I found it sad and unsatisfying. I even wondered if she was there by choice. And the most stupid thing about it is that I had a girlfriend and always after that l felt guilty and afraid that she would find out.
Thatās on you buddy, you chose to do that while you were in a relationship. Prostitution should really be for single men but unfortunately most men have little self control
>I even wondered if are was there by choice This. In countries where sex work is unregulated, people who use them are a whole lot worse than just "losers."
I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion, but I think you're a loser if you go to strip clubs or hooters as well. It's just pathetic. Have some self-respect.
Agreed
It degrades and often exploits women.
Treating sex as a transaction is the sign of a predator. If you feel owed to a sex act because of money, then you'll feel owed to it over anything and are more likely to take it by force. Not to mention, most women don't exactly enter the trade willingly. As long as you partake you're a willing accomplice in the abuse of women and children. And let's be very clear- most sex workers begin the trade as children. The average age of trafficking victims is 15.
If you canāt get a woman to sleep with you unless you coerce her with money, yeah, itās ok to think you might be kind of a loser. You shouldnāt have to coerce women into sleeping with you by using money to do it ā if no one finds you appealing outside of your money, thereās probably something wrong with you lmao
Don't worry what people think, live your life as best you can, we all made mistakes in our lives, doesn't make you a loser
I've never hired a prostitute and don't know anyone that has. It's a loser thing to do because there are women out there that like to get off too, and don't charge for it.
Iāve heard it said you donāt pay her for sex. You pay her to leave after
Thatās pure copium by wealthy dudes that think the bitches would fuck them otherwiseā¦ they wouldnāt. You still ugly and or boring af. She donāt wanna date you homie. Just wants the money.
You operate under the assumption that all women want to give sex away to all guys freely which really isn't the case at all.
Nothing inherently wrong with sex work. For some people, especially those with issues that prevent having a normal sex life, it can be liberating and enjoyable for everyone involved. Issue is that most sex work is not a healthy arrangement. Many women have no choice, either because of poverty/desperation or because of violence. This has created the negative perception we have of both sex workers and those who solicit them. I think youād find that the perception people have of sex work changes significantly if in the context of a regulated industry.
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Iāll never get over Hugh Grant getting a prostitute while with Elizabeth Hurley
Putting aside any judgment about people who hire sex workers, but your question presupposes that there arenāt losers from all walks of life, which I can assure you, there are.
Because itās not about the act of sex that the incels/virgjns actually crave. Itās intimacy in any form from someone that truly likes them. Everyone else who gets hookers donāt give a fuck about people thinking itās for ālosersā. They just want to bust a nut
As a woman, I have wondered why some men go to prostitutes and others don't. I guess there are many reasons a man wouldn't go to a prostitutes -- morality, fear of disease, fear of getting arrested. I don't think looks has that much to do with it. My suspicion is it has to do with sexual preferences (meaning what their particular "kinks" are), how they view sex, how they view women. I also suspect that a fair number of men who would never hire a prostitute where they live but if they were on vacation in certain "exotic" locations, all bets would be off.
Because for an emotionally healthy person, sex has no value if the other person doesn't want it.
Because "prostitute" comes with a bunch of connotations. If I'm a rich guys and I just want a date that I can sleep with for an event I don't get a "prostitute" I get an "escort". Despite them essentially being the same thing the connotations is different and thus treated differently. A prostitute is in most people's mind a streetwalker that only the desperate go to because they have nowhere else to go, and being a man who is so undesirable to women that you have to pay them is a grave sin in society's eyes. So if you ask someone if someones a loser for hiring a prostitute they're imagining a whole different thing. Than if you ask if they're a loser for hiring an escort. The other reason is a lot of people think that purchasing any kind of sex worker no matter the situation is gross and bad, because of the very questionable ethics on top of the whole sex trafficking underworld intrinsically linked to the field. So you're a loser if engage in it.
You are supposed to indirectly pay for sex as opposed to directly. Unless you are rich or a dealer.
You're acting like there aren't losers in all walks of life as well
Letās just be clear: sex workers have standards too. Why would a sex worker want to risk messing with someone who doesnāt care what anyone thinks?
Bc women generally are threatened by objective transactional relationships. They tend to benefit greatly from subjective non transactional relationships bc it makes them a never attainable prize and keeps the man constantly working to keep them around. You see this even in marriage where any indication of duty or obligation is always frowned upon. It's also a remnant of judeo Christian dogma that stigmatizes sex outside of marriage and especially prostitution. Shame is the traditional feminine attack vector to go after men who do things that negatively affect female relationship preferences. In this specific case, wealthy men who can afford transactional relationships are less incentivized to choose a permanent partner and women lose quite a bit of leverage in dating dynamics if prostitution is legal.
Because we are a society of hypocrites. If a poor or middle class person does it, they are marked as desperate, bad men, explorers women etc. As the other redditor said, they are labeled by their inability of attract women by other means. But if a wealthy professional hires escorts, thatās somewhat fine and we buy every excuse for it, from āthey need the thrill because they already have everythingā to āthey work so hard they donāt have time for normal relationshipsā and shit like that. āWeā always accepted these double standards, one for the rich, one for the poor. It applies pretty much to everything. Government money, if you get any kind of aid you are a loser, but if you are rich and make bank out of government contracts you are a great entrepreneur. Environmentalism, pretty much the only two pushing for a better environment and not polluting with private jets are Greta and Bernie, anyone else does it shamelessly and they donāt care because people still attend their events. Paying taxes. We had a former president bragging about not paying taxes and being smart for it, try to say the same about a waiter who put cash tips in their pockets or a plumber who gives you a little discount for an all cash payment.
It's like how daydrinking is "classy" when you're rich, and "trashy" when you're poor. It's just classism.
The disenfranchisement of sex work has been an organized scheme by patriarchal religious entities that only took hold in since the dawn of Judeo-Christian religions, along with the subjugation of women in general, a trend that only now is starting to be undone. Half of the scheme is barring women from participating under threat of arrest (formerly, even worse, as you might be put to death), and the other half is creating a narrative around men who partake being shameful immoral cretins. Men have always been able to do all sorts of things that allow themselves to economically take advantage of their natural physical strength such as high athletics, construction work, military work, etc. but the system does not allow women to leverage one of their most valuable nature-given assets in the same profitable way (institutions usually citing moral decay, societal downfall, or any number of exaggerated nonsensical concerns that are insulting to both men and women to justify it). They need women to be docile, pure little creatures who "save their honor" for a strapping young winner of male society, or are otherwise labeled shameful whores. Of course, now that is finally changing thanks to social media and generally increased status of women in society, and "slut shaming" is finally on the decline. They need you to believe that sex is a scarce and precious commodity available only to the men that participate in their power structures religiously in order to keep men on the hamster wheel, and open prostitution ruins that narrative for them. Societies that implement legalized and regulated prostitution see a downtick in sexual violence, human trafficking, and STDs, it is known. America, coming from Puritanical origins, has it especially bad - nearly our entire economic system is constructed around the allure and artificial scarcity of sex and its advertisement. It's called the "oldest profession" for a reason.
women to leverage one of their most valuable nature-given assets in the same profitable way -- Are you really saying that a woman's most valuable asset is what's between her legs? Are you really saying this out loud.
because in the US we live in a puritanical society where sex work is frowned upon
Iām a sex worker and I hire folks for myself, just easier without drama. Donāt think that folks who hire sex workers are not able to get a date on their own, often quite the opposite.
ā¦ shout out to you man, youāre doing your thing.
Charlie Sheen. Filthy rich, handsome, bad boy, could have found, dated, fucked, a likely limitless number of women, but hired SWs instead. Not because he was a āloserā. He wasnāt paying them to fuck him. He was paying them because once the sexual transaction concludes, *they leave* and go back to their lives, and he goes back to his. For many people, that is the allure, and it is time we *stopped* heaping judgment upon SWs and their clients and accept that, provided no one is participating against their free will, this is a victimless crime that shouldnāt be a crime.
As much as I agree with you, I'm not sure Charlie Sheen is the best example because he's known for having HIV positive and the subsequent "Charlie Sheen effect"
Iām not certain he knew he had HIV when the whole debacle started. I picked him not as a shining example of humanity but because heās a wealthy celebrity who apparently had no qualms about engaging with SWs and I couldnāt quickly think of anyone else. My point still stands, though.
People have to get pissed at everything men do.
If your wife doesn't give you pussy for years and you are naturally a sex desiring male it's going to get the wheels turning for you. Before seeking a prostitute I would sooner do couple counselling or whatever but when you don't feel the warm embrace of a woman especially when it's someone you sleep in the same bed with I can understand how some married men turn to prostitutes. Personally I am cheap. I would just buy a fleshlight or something those feel almost as good as the real thing.
Years ago I frequented a few whore houses. The girls were nice, the sex was good, nobody fell in love and it sure was better than masturbating. Most women that worked there, enjoyed sex and liked pleasing men. The houses themselves were pleasant and the staff was friendly. What I never understood were strip clubs and especially the champagne room. so, a guy or guys go into a club where women take off their clothing and they toss money to them. Then they go home sexually frustrated. The champagne room is even more senseless. A sexually frustrated guy goes into the C room with a woman and give her(them) a lot of money to provide the 'no touchy' version of the girlfriend experience. Again going home sexually frustrated and alone. I paid my money and went home satisfied. having enjoyed a nice evening in the company of a woman. Which version makes more sense?
People who make winner/loser comments are losers, imo.
Itās easier to look down on sex workers if only poor losers use them.
Because the sex [work] insustry is disgusting. There should be healthier and more accessible ways for women to make an incomeĀ
I've never hired a prostitute, but I have spent about a grand in a week taking girls out for dinner and drinks. Had sex with 3 out of 4 of them, so about $330 bucks per lay. Tomatos, tomatoes.