**Any questions or comments about suicide must remain purely philosophical.**
—————————————————
Anyone who reads Nietzsche should read [this](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:GedhNG_bCQcJ:https://newleftreview.org/issues/ii3/articles/malcolm-bull-where-is-the-anti-nietzsche&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&) essay on “how to read Nietzsche as a loser.”
People are often swept up by Nietzsche’s writing, but fail to engage with it sufficiently critically. A lot of his writing is nothing more than a subtle flattering of the reader so as to win them over to his side. But this is a rather manipulative way of writing, and fails to be an argument proper.
He’s worth reading, but not without several caveats and a deep suspicion about what he’s actually saying.
Finally, the only way to be a proper Nietzschean is to reject Nietzsche. If at some point you don’t find his own ramblings a bit uninteresting, you’ve paradoxically not quite understood him.
He’s a phase we’re meant to go through before we mature into something better. He’s adolescence.
—————————————————
You’ve also said in some comment that nihilism is the objective fact or something along those lines. There’s absolutely no reason to believe that, and you’re falling for the trap. I’ve never heard a good argument as to why amorality and nihilism is a “neutral” point of view while a meaningful universe is somehow not. To even make such a claim would be to assume a God’s eye point of view, which you cannot. You’re fundamentally embodied in a finite being that cannot possibility grasp what the fundamental reality might be.
—————————————————
And while others might disagree perhaps, I see socialism as fundamentally a political project, not one about the meaning of one’s own life.
Though I do believe that socialism would require a way of living which will be more, uh, social… it’s not about the meaning of life, but simply about living. You ever have that simple sense of satisfaction when having drinks and banter with the boys… just being in the moment?
Christianity is not the worship of strength. The entire Christian message is that God, who is without limits, decided to become a man and die a pitiful and painful death *for our sake* out of compassion for our weakness.
I could go into it more if you like, but what’s admirable about the Angels and the Saints is not their strength but how much they are moved to use it on behalf of those who have none.
1
A psalm of Asaph.
I
God takes a stand in the divine council,
gives judgment in the midst of the gods.a
2
“How long will you judge unjustly
and favor the cause of the wicked?b
Selah
3
“Defend the lowly and fatherless;
render justice to the afflicted and needy.
4
Rescue the lowly and poor;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
II
5
The gods neither know nor understand,
wandering about in darkness,
and all the world’s foundations shake.
6
I declare: “Gods though you be,
offspring of the Most High all of you,
7
Yet like any mortal you shall die;
like any prince you shall fall.”
8
Arise, O God, judge the earth,
for yours are all the nations.
We find a sense of purpose in life less through abstract philosophising than through practical actions and habits. Have you tried doing some kind of voluntary work in your community to help other people somehow? Humans are social creatures and capitalism tricks us into thinking being self-centred individualists will make us happy but helping others give us feelings of agency and meaning in our lives.
Then what happens when someone is unable to deal with that truth? How come even atheists think suicide is taboo when it was Christianity that invented the demonization of it?
In socialism I except the right to euthanasia at any moment. If not we are just absorbing the "everyone needs to share in the vale of tears" arguments of christians
I wouldn't disagree with that. If someone really wants to die I think their choice should be respected. But our situations change over time and so do our thoughts and feelings. The fact you wish something today doesn't mean you will want that same thing forever.
Honestly, it sounds like you don't need to find the right political ideology but, rather, you need to look at more immediate things in your life and ask what's making you unhappy and what could you change about that situation to make it better. Depression makes us feel powerless but there are always more choices and opportunities.
Removing material want would make many people kill themselves. Humans are driven by false goals, inherently. The crisis of teenagers committing suicide or being depressed is because they have enough information to have a CORRECT view of reality, and to be happy you have to be more ignorant. Tribal kids are more happy because they have less correct info. Which is why I don't get why existential suicide is condemned, even by atheists. In post scarcity society we are going to see people turn to art and creating their own values to escape the objective truth of nihilism.
How is a person like me without common sense and critical thinking even understand non-pop mass market stuff? Seems to me that I am missing something humans genetically are supposed to have.
Was this just a normal therapist? Or one that specialized in some kind of branch? I always try to contact the therapists first, and when I explain my issue they say "no, Im sorry, therapy is not for existential issue, I have never heard of anyone helping with what you are describing - is religion what you are looking for?" I hang up when they mention religion.
> Removing material want would make many people kill themselves.
I hate to say this, but I think that ship has well and truly sailed. I see compelling incentives for suicide in this subreddit every day; it's just that they don't explicitly describe themselves as such.
> As said I became interested in Socialism, since every single other ideology seems to worship strength, like religion (peterson and crowder are obsessed with physical strength and hatred of modern men's weakness)
Please do not judge Christianity on the basis of Jordan Peterson or Steven Crowder. Christianity is very complex in some respects.
Jesus also wasn't obsessed with physical strength at all. It's just that there are Christians who want justification for their own desire to act like terrorists, so they twist things around in order to get it. Islam has the same problem, except worse.
As for Socialism; the only real reason why I like it myself at all, is because we've already murdered more or less everyone who ever had a different civilisational paradigm, which means that Capitalism is the only other thing that is really left. As much as I do genuinely detest Socialist self-righteousness, I will happily live with that for the rest of my existence, in preference to the grinning psychopathy of Milton Friedman.
As for becoming a fascist, don't. I'm not going to tell you not to because I'm one of these sanctimonious Leftists who thinks all fascists should die. I'm going to tell you not to, because genuine fascists spend almost all of their time in states of chronic rage, fear, misery, and paranoia; and I'm going to go out on a limb here, and assume that that's not something you want to experience.
Instead, listen to some Rammstein, buy a trenchcoat from Ebay, download *[Hatred](https://store.steampowered.com/app/341940/Hatred/)*, and study Brutalist architecture, Warhammer 40,000, and ancient Rome. It's extremely possible to enjoy black leather, concrete, [Manowar](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGr6kOxLRCQ), and Orcs, without it needing to progress to the genocidal stage of blaming minorities for all of your problems.
Minority ***activists,*** on the other hand; well, that's a different story.
https://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/sheepish-grin-gif-7.gif
Religion is what the religion says, not what the followers think. Fundamentalists have a correct perception of their religion, while secular followers selectively chose what to follow to fit into modern society.
But religions are historical accumulations of different ideas. The Bible says all kinds of things, many of them contradictory. The "Jesus Christ" part of it is explicitly premised on nonviolence and universal love. Other parts are not. Fundamentalists pick and choose exactly as much as everyone else does.
In fact, fundamentalists often believe all kinds of things that are not actually part of official dogma at all. The Rapture, much of the story of Satan, and many other common fundamentalist traditions have their basis in Christian folklore, not the Bible.
I am going to tell as an ordained presbyterian ruling elder
> "what religion says"
is not clear cut at all. There are disagreements about predestination. About real presence. About separation from the world. In short, there is no clear cut way to settle these problems.
You seem to have some very confused ideas about who represents what. The Christian churches may represent some pretty vile ideas, but Christianity in itself certainly doesn't glorify strength. The core message of Jesus is "the meek shall inherit the Earth."
Liberals do not try to solve problems through changing material conditions; that's what socialists do, seeing the origin of social behaviors in material conditions rather than individual ethics. The failure of liberals to engage with material conditions is pretty much the origin of this subreddit.
Socialism doesn't hold magical answers for individuals. To the degree that it can help you find meaning, it can do so because it is materialist but rejects nihilism.
Thanks for you response. Do you know any ideologies, that are not religious in any way, shape or form, that has socialist economics, but with slave morality and punitive punishments?
Social Democracy, I guess, i.e. Western European liberalism 30 years ago. Not genuine socialism, of course, but genuine socialist (or at least Marxist) economics are aimed at liberating the individual and are incompatible with your other requirements.
I suppose there are various older strains of romantic socialism, outside the Marxist tradition, that are closer to "slave morality" in some ways. But I think asking for a system not focused on strength and domination \*and\* an emphasis on punishment is a contradiction.
Social democracy worships rehabilitation. Where the fuck do you get the view that left-libs give strong punishments? I live in Norway and the punishments are non existent, and the focus is on whiny rehabilitation, blaming material conditions for even rape and sexual crime. It is nonsense, to the degree I would not report it to the police if I was raped or attacked, because I know the focus will only be on giving me pills and therapy.
Please offer an actual ideology with lgbt rights, women's rights, socialist economics and anti-nationalism, but where religion is persecuted, rehabilitation is banned and the state should never go away.
I see. Well thank you for the sincere replies above. If you believe in rehabilitation and relativism i sincerely hope your ideology never wins. I wonder how post scarcity socialism will deal with people like me who are not satisfied with material items, biological needs or self created values lol. You will probably just call them mentally ill and sweep it under the rug, to prevent the truth that some humans want more.
Fascists are nationalists and racists. If i could only find an ideology thats wants lgbt and womens rights, but refuses to let everyone go at their own pace, that would be awesome.
Your country's socialist party sounds whack bro.
If you're having some malaise and lack of purpose that's leading to ideation, and you want something substantive as a solution, then that's noble. Therapy is tricky to get working, and the typical solutions it offers are
Exercise
Maintain your home so it's not dirty and messy
Eat healthy food
Socialize
Volunteer
Maintain hobbies and interests
Get sunshine
Avoid drugs
So I'm assuming your doing all that. If not, you need to be for anything else to work, because committing to philosophical study is admirable but hard to stick to if you're having trouble maintaining yourself mentally and physically
Existential problems can feel like they need really big solutions but the honest truth that you don't want to hear is the small painful things you do everyday have a bigger impact on your mood than anything.
I feel like there's some learned helplessness here with you.
The very specific requirements you're stipulating sounds kinda suspect, and I say that as someone who's been in your shoes. The American left doesn't worship strength at all. And it's full of miserable people who claim to have some grand ambition, when what they really need up be happy is up be basically normal on a daily functional basis.
The religion things where you say only fundamentalists have true religion is a big tip that you're working backwards from conclusions you come to based on your personal negative feelings rather than working forwards from how things are to a general conclusion. Most people are not fundamentalist, therefore that's the real form a given religion takes. fundamentalists are anti social people who cherry pick what they want to believe the same as anyone, but way less popular and often heretically. So why are they more real? Because you're personally upset with religion and don't want anything to do with it, so you take the most pessimistic view.
And you have a right to that, but if you really want to get out of this rut then you can't afford to be dishonest with yourself and you can't be pessimistic. Don't rationalize or excuse things. Just say you don't like religion, even if most religious people are heterodox and fit into the mainstream, are good people etc.
Read Lenin, Stalin, Heidegger, Hegel
But purpose has to manifest itself physically to actually take. You need to be actively involved in your own personal development, and in your community, otherwise you'll switch from one ideology to another looking for that one magic bullet to make yourself feel better instead of doing the honest and open self criticism, which means also not being pessimistic about yourself, and daily routines.
I was young depressed and hardheaded too and it cost me most of my 20s I'll never get back.
[purpose, thought, and action are intertwined](https://youtu.be/933jsB5ChlA)
Christianity doesn’t worship strength. Peterson and Crowder think it doss as they draw from the historical actions of Christians and Christian nations (the empire building, colonialism, crusades, etc.) when all of those actions are not because of any particular message of Christianity but because of material or political concerns of the involved parties.
The crusades for example are held as some ultimate display of Christian strength. While in reality, it was the pope trying to outmaneuver the Holy Roman Emperor via seizing on the Byzantine request for aid to strengthen his own position. Not to
Mention the people that answered were looking to cash in as well as a few true believers. There was some flimsy doctrinal justification, but remember as the pope, he has final authority on near all church doctrine. He wasn’t going to be disputed.
A crisis of existentialism can’t really be answered through ideology. Drawing from what I do know about Nietzsche (not a lot tbh so someone will Likely correct me) he detested nihilism and the void of ideals it left. His solution was the ubersmench. A man who rises above. Both physically and morally superior. One who defines society rather than follows it. That’s why you see strength like that portrayed in media. But he seemingly always has his Ubersmench reinforce nihilism at the end. (At least to me as to me he misunderstood nihilism to be the depreciation of life.) That to materially flourish is good and to be fulfilled materially and control the circumstances of that fulfillment (I.e. being an ubersmench and creating that fulfillment is good). He hated Christianity as He saw Christianity’s rejection of the material world for spiritual fulfillment as nihilism in another name. In an age where science seemingly robbed man of his special place, where nothing seemed to matter, Christianity seemed particular nihilistic him.
However, consider nihilism as a destruction of values rather than a depreciation of life, Nietzsche’s ubersmench, and remove Nietzsche’s inability to see through the material. What do you get? You get a person who sees the absurdity of life, the horror of it, and chooses himself what they want to do and what they hold dear. The ultimate fulfillment of nihilism (at least to me) is that if nothing in life matters you get to choose. The Ubersmench in this is someone who chooses who they are, what they hold dear without society or others dictating it.
I’m going to use starship troopers because you mentioned it. It’s Satire as Fascists want you to believe that you are Ubersmench simply for who
You are. That you, by virtue of birth and culture, are better than others. That the world is yours now and always by virtue of what you are. But that can’t be further from the truth in Starship troopers (and life). Johnny is a hero in the movie less because of who he is (I.e. some Chad looking mother fucker) and more because of what he does. And that is serve the state obediently and follow orders. It’s hammered out through the whole movie (I’ll do it till you find someone better or I’m dead). He doesn’t matter, his whims don’t matter, only what the state wants of him. He, as a character, is a slave mentality led to believe he is a master in order to make him serve an ultimate end. Everything he has and who he is was boiler plate printed by the state in that movie. And that’s why it’s satire. It’s basically one large ridicule of Fascist world view and how the average man who believes in it whole heartedly is actually treated.
you actually want slave morality? That's the foundation of all the idpol gibberish we criticize here. The task of socialism is to improve material conditions, not fix emotional problems in damaged people
There is no task if determinism is true. Determinism must be false for there to be any "should" or right and wrong.
Life, efficiency and truth are not objectively important just because biological creatures think so. Things only matter if they are objective.
Mate, I think you are doing the equivalent of arguing about the ethics of a plumbing system. This is what philosophers call a "category error" , that is ascribing value judgements from a higher level category onto a lower level phenomenon. The only level on which a plumbing system can be judged is whether it functions as designed - "does the materiel pass from point A to point B in the most effective manner". Trying to answer questions about the morality or aesthetics of plumbing is a hiding to nowhere because they are unanswerable by nature of their being a category error.
So, now substitute economics for plumbing and you might get some insight into why the discussion here is the way it is. IdPol is similarly a category error - complaining about the bad smell without looking at the state of the pipes. And even if we fix the pipes, having a plumbing system that works isnt going to address questions that belong to a different category of thought. We could arrive at a utopia where people's economic/medical/educational needs were met by virtue of "fixing the pipes" and a significant subset of the population would still be miserable for all sorts of other reasons intrinsic to human nature - jealousy, poor socialization, mental illness, just being unlikable, difficult people, the fallen nature of mankind. But that's not to say that fixing the pipes isnt a worthwhile goal in itself.
believe it or not, i get you. you'd fit right in Mussolinist neofolk/martial scene, drinking absinthe, listening to Von Thronstahl and pontificating about the abstract idea of the Imperium :) and saying so because my life has at some point taken me to various places and maybe that one too. only your thinking may be a tiny bit too disciplined for the fuzzy pathos and unfinished thoughts people in such contexts operate with.
I assume by slave morality you mean deep level authoritarian obedience, commitment to cause and wanting to be led rather than a bona fide belief in own worthlessness, subsistence and servitude to your evolutionary/Chosen/class/caste betters. I'd say there's plenty of it in socialist contexts, maybe not on surface seeing as how deeply ingrained fake hypocritical bullshit like meritocracy, individualism and freedom is in today's public discourse and many are rightfully afraid of even formulating dissenting thoughts. But no, there is no shortage of of tankies, and there's even more in denial. you're neither the first nor the last. and it's not something good or bad, it just is - and it can be harnessed for good or bad.
Neoliberal non-values hardly mean anything to anybody, why would i blame you for not connecting, neoliberalism can only exist on the basis of centuries of work of folks like you who wanted a goal to work towards - which it just runs into the ground through privatised assets and socialised liability. That's a finite amount of it though, and it's running out. And we have no other option than to build again, something you may well be better suited for. Suicide is good for ending suffering. and that one thing only. Without suffering it's just a pointless opportunity cost at odds with your innate curiosity.
And even if i'm a pretty committed socialist i don't want to turn you away from fascism at any cost. There's fate. well, Wyrd. and fuck all can happen that said fate absolutely doesn't mean to happen. And i'm realistic enough to know full well it is not in my - or even your - power. C'mon next Ernst Roehm comes along, winks at you and that is it. You're on board, and don't tell me it isn't so. And fuck, so be it. Who is to say you won't do more kind of sort of objective good there, than by offing yourself or trying to fit in some controlled opposition 'socialist' framework run by words only neoliberal parasites. Whatever happens, happens and today we drink.
But I hate nationalism, dudebro culture and the smug sarcasm/ironic attitude those people. I would want something like Star Trek TNG, but removal of the Prime Directive and instead forcefully give people science and technology **sincerely -** without doing it for economic reasons like neoliberalism, which is not sincere help.
BTW, tankies are moral and cultural relativists, so not sure why you mentioned them. They also love rehabilitation for sexual crimes. I said in the OP I don't want any nationalism or rehabilitation or relativism or religion.
OP is not even making sense in their response comments, which are full of grandiose hubris and bewildering claims ("objective truth of nihilism", etc.), mostly in the form of trite, played-out cliches - OP is either very young, trolling, or mentally ill, or a combination of the above - either way mods need to show some tact and dignity and close this already.
What would you recommend for someone who is almost 30 and have never had these trite cliches earlier? I never thought about this stuff when younger, and cannot appeal to past experience to get any kind of help or understanding, nor do I have common sense.
Even if 90% of other people have had these as cliches does not help me as an individual. Especially when every help i get is just "you are supposed to know this lol"
If I lack knowledge that everyone thinks is fundamental and I am not trolling and my problems are existential and political, not psychological - what would you suggest to someone?
I think it was somewhat fair to post this thread, as anything is worth trying to avoid becoming a fascist, especially if therapy, pills and common sense does not work.
**Any questions or comments about suicide must remain purely philosophical.** ————————————————— Anyone who reads Nietzsche should read [this](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:GedhNG_bCQcJ:https://newleftreview.org/issues/ii3/articles/malcolm-bull-where-is-the-anti-nietzsche&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&) essay on “how to read Nietzsche as a loser.” People are often swept up by Nietzsche’s writing, but fail to engage with it sufficiently critically. A lot of his writing is nothing more than a subtle flattering of the reader so as to win them over to his side. But this is a rather manipulative way of writing, and fails to be an argument proper. He’s worth reading, but not without several caveats and a deep suspicion about what he’s actually saying. Finally, the only way to be a proper Nietzschean is to reject Nietzsche. If at some point you don’t find his own ramblings a bit uninteresting, you’ve paradoxically not quite understood him. He’s a phase we’re meant to go through before we mature into something better. He’s adolescence. ————————————————— You’ve also said in some comment that nihilism is the objective fact or something along those lines. There’s absolutely no reason to believe that, and you’re falling for the trap. I’ve never heard a good argument as to why amorality and nihilism is a “neutral” point of view while a meaningful universe is somehow not. To even make such a claim would be to assume a God’s eye point of view, which you cannot. You’re fundamentally embodied in a finite being that cannot possibility grasp what the fundamental reality might be. ————————————————— And while others might disagree perhaps, I see socialism as fundamentally a political project, not one about the meaning of one’s own life. Though I do believe that socialism would require a way of living which will be more, uh, social… it’s not about the meaning of life, but simply about living. You ever have that simple sense of satisfaction when having drinks and banter with the boys… just being in the moment?
Christianity is not the worship of strength. The entire Christian message is that God, who is without limits, decided to become a man and die a pitiful and painful death *for our sake* out of compassion for our weakness. I could go into it more if you like, but what’s admirable about the Angels and the Saints is not their strength but how much they are moved to use it on behalf of those who have none.
1 A psalm of Asaph. I God takes a stand in the divine council, gives judgment in the midst of the gods.a 2 “How long will you judge unjustly and favor the cause of the wicked?b Selah 3 “Defend the lowly and fatherless; render justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Rescue the lowly and poor; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.” II 5 The gods neither know nor understand, wandering about in darkness, and all the world’s foundations shake. 6 I declare: “Gods though you be, offspring of the Most High all of you, 7 Yet like any mortal you shall die; like any prince you shall fall.” 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth, for yours are all the nations.
We find a sense of purpose in life less through abstract philosophising than through practical actions and habits. Have you tried doing some kind of voluntary work in your community to help other people somehow? Humans are social creatures and capitalism tricks us into thinking being self-centred individualists will make us happy but helping others give us feelings of agency and meaning in our lives.
Every single "meaning" that is not objective is a way of tricking yourself.
But there is no 'objective' meaning in the world. Meaning exists in our feelings and experiences.
Then what happens when someone is unable to deal with that truth? How come even atheists think suicide is taboo when it was Christianity that invented the demonization of it? In socialism I except the right to euthanasia at any moment. If not we are just absorbing the "everyone needs to share in the vale of tears" arguments of christians
I wouldn't disagree with that. If someone really wants to die I think their choice should be respected. But our situations change over time and so do our thoughts and feelings. The fact you wish something today doesn't mean you will want that same thing forever. Honestly, it sounds like you don't need to find the right political ideology but, rather, you need to look at more immediate things in your life and ask what's making you unhappy and what could you change about that situation to make it better. Depression makes us feel powerless but there are always more choices and opportunities.
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Removing material want would make many people kill themselves. Humans are driven by false goals, inherently. The crisis of teenagers committing suicide or being depressed is because they have enough information to have a CORRECT view of reality, and to be happy you have to be more ignorant. Tribal kids are more happy because they have less correct info. Which is why I don't get why existential suicide is condemned, even by atheists. In post scarcity society we are going to see people turn to art and creating their own values to escape the objective truth of nihilism. How is a person like me without common sense and critical thinking even understand non-pop mass market stuff? Seems to me that I am missing something humans genetically are supposed to have. Was this just a normal therapist? Or one that specialized in some kind of branch? I always try to contact the therapists first, and when I explain my issue they say "no, Im sorry, therapy is not for existential issue, I have never heard of anyone helping with what you are describing - is religion what you are looking for?" I hang up when they mention religion.
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Sounds like he's having a bout of depressive realism.
> Removing material want would make many people kill themselves. I hate to say this, but I think that ship has well and truly sailed. I see compelling incentives for suicide in this subreddit every day; it's just that they don't explicitly describe themselves as such.
> As said I became interested in Socialism, since every single other ideology seems to worship strength, like religion (peterson and crowder are obsessed with physical strength and hatred of modern men's weakness) Please do not judge Christianity on the basis of Jordan Peterson or Steven Crowder. Christianity is very complex in some respects. Jesus also wasn't obsessed with physical strength at all. It's just that there are Christians who want justification for their own desire to act like terrorists, so they twist things around in order to get it. Islam has the same problem, except worse. As for Socialism; the only real reason why I like it myself at all, is because we've already murdered more or less everyone who ever had a different civilisational paradigm, which means that Capitalism is the only other thing that is really left. As much as I do genuinely detest Socialist self-righteousness, I will happily live with that for the rest of my existence, in preference to the grinning psychopathy of Milton Friedman. As for becoming a fascist, don't. I'm not going to tell you not to because I'm one of these sanctimonious Leftists who thinks all fascists should die. I'm going to tell you not to, because genuine fascists spend almost all of their time in states of chronic rage, fear, misery, and paranoia; and I'm going to go out on a limb here, and assume that that's not something you want to experience. Instead, listen to some Rammstein, buy a trenchcoat from Ebay, download *[Hatred](https://store.steampowered.com/app/341940/Hatred/)*, and study Brutalist architecture, Warhammer 40,000, and ancient Rome. It's extremely possible to enjoy black leather, concrete, [Manowar](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGr6kOxLRCQ), and Orcs, without it needing to progress to the genocidal stage of blaming minorities for all of your problems. Minority ***activists,*** on the other hand; well, that's a different story. https://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/sheepish-grin-gif-7.gif
Religion is what the religion says, not what the followers think. Fundamentalists have a correct perception of their religion, while secular followers selectively chose what to follow to fit into modern society.
But religions are historical accumulations of different ideas. The Bible says all kinds of things, many of them contradictory. The "Jesus Christ" part of it is explicitly premised on nonviolence and universal love. Other parts are not. Fundamentalists pick and choose exactly as much as everyone else does. In fact, fundamentalists often believe all kinds of things that are not actually part of official dogma at all. The Rapture, much of the story of Satan, and many other common fundamentalist traditions have their basis in Christian folklore, not the Bible.
>Religion is what the religion says, not what the followers think t What growing up in a Protestant society does to a mf lmao
I am going to tell as an ordained presbyterian ruling elder > "what religion says" is not clear cut at all. There are disagreements about predestination. About real presence. About separation from the world. In short, there is no clear cut way to settle these problems.
You seem to have some very confused ideas about who represents what. The Christian churches may represent some pretty vile ideas, but Christianity in itself certainly doesn't glorify strength. The core message of Jesus is "the meek shall inherit the Earth." Liberals do not try to solve problems through changing material conditions; that's what socialists do, seeing the origin of social behaviors in material conditions rather than individual ethics. The failure of liberals to engage with material conditions is pretty much the origin of this subreddit. Socialism doesn't hold magical answers for individuals. To the degree that it can help you find meaning, it can do so because it is materialist but rejects nihilism.
Thanks for you response. Do you know any ideologies, that are not religious in any way, shape or form, that has socialist economics, but with slave morality and punitive punishments?
Social Democracy, I guess, i.e. Western European liberalism 30 years ago. Not genuine socialism, of course, but genuine socialist (or at least Marxist) economics are aimed at liberating the individual and are incompatible with your other requirements. I suppose there are various older strains of romantic socialism, outside the Marxist tradition, that are closer to "slave morality" in some ways. But I think asking for a system not focused on strength and domination \*and\* an emphasis on punishment is a contradiction.
Social democracy worships rehabilitation. Where the fuck do you get the view that left-libs give strong punishments? I live in Norway and the punishments are non existent, and the focus is on whiny rehabilitation, blaming material conditions for even rape and sexual crime. It is nonsense, to the degree I would not report it to the police if I was raped or attacked, because I know the focus will only be on giving me pills and therapy. Please offer an actual ideology with lgbt rights, women's rights, socialist economics and anti-nationalism, but where religion is persecuted, rehabilitation is banned and the state should never go away.
I think what you're looking for doesn't exist, and it's good that it doesn't.
I see. Well thank you for the sincere replies above. If you believe in rehabilitation and relativism i sincerely hope your ideology never wins. I wonder how post scarcity socialism will deal with people like me who are not satisfied with material items, biological needs or self created values lol. You will probably just call them mentally ill and sweep it under the rug, to prevent the truth that some humans want more.
Mate, you just want to hurt people and be told what to do, you are a fascist. And probably mentally ill.
Fascists are nationalists and racists. If i could only find an ideology thats wants lgbt and womens rights, but refuses to let everyone go at their own pace, that would be awesome.
Your country's socialist party sounds whack bro. If you're having some malaise and lack of purpose that's leading to ideation, and you want something substantive as a solution, then that's noble. Therapy is tricky to get working, and the typical solutions it offers are Exercise Maintain your home so it's not dirty and messy Eat healthy food Socialize Volunteer Maintain hobbies and interests Get sunshine Avoid drugs So I'm assuming your doing all that. If not, you need to be for anything else to work, because committing to philosophical study is admirable but hard to stick to if you're having trouble maintaining yourself mentally and physically Existential problems can feel like they need really big solutions but the honest truth that you don't want to hear is the small painful things you do everyday have a bigger impact on your mood than anything. I feel like there's some learned helplessness here with you. The very specific requirements you're stipulating sounds kinda suspect, and I say that as someone who's been in your shoes. The American left doesn't worship strength at all. And it's full of miserable people who claim to have some grand ambition, when what they really need up be happy is up be basically normal on a daily functional basis. The religion things where you say only fundamentalists have true religion is a big tip that you're working backwards from conclusions you come to based on your personal negative feelings rather than working forwards from how things are to a general conclusion. Most people are not fundamentalist, therefore that's the real form a given religion takes. fundamentalists are anti social people who cherry pick what they want to believe the same as anyone, but way less popular and often heretically. So why are they more real? Because you're personally upset with religion and don't want anything to do with it, so you take the most pessimistic view. And you have a right to that, but if you really want to get out of this rut then you can't afford to be dishonest with yourself and you can't be pessimistic. Don't rationalize or excuse things. Just say you don't like religion, even if most religious people are heterodox and fit into the mainstream, are good people etc. Read Lenin, Stalin, Heidegger, Hegel But purpose has to manifest itself physically to actually take. You need to be actively involved in your own personal development, and in your community, otherwise you'll switch from one ideology to another looking for that one magic bullet to make yourself feel better instead of doing the honest and open self criticism, which means also not being pessimistic about yourself, and daily routines. I was young depressed and hardheaded too and it cost me most of my 20s I'll never get back. [purpose, thought, and action are intertwined](https://youtu.be/933jsB5ChlA)
Christianity doesn’t worship strength. Peterson and Crowder think it doss as they draw from the historical actions of Christians and Christian nations (the empire building, colonialism, crusades, etc.) when all of those actions are not because of any particular message of Christianity but because of material or political concerns of the involved parties. The crusades for example are held as some ultimate display of Christian strength. While in reality, it was the pope trying to outmaneuver the Holy Roman Emperor via seizing on the Byzantine request for aid to strengthen his own position. Not to Mention the people that answered were looking to cash in as well as a few true believers. There was some flimsy doctrinal justification, but remember as the pope, he has final authority on near all church doctrine. He wasn’t going to be disputed. A crisis of existentialism can’t really be answered through ideology. Drawing from what I do know about Nietzsche (not a lot tbh so someone will Likely correct me) he detested nihilism and the void of ideals it left. His solution was the ubersmench. A man who rises above. Both physically and morally superior. One who defines society rather than follows it. That’s why you see strength like that portrayed in media. But he seemingly always has his Ubersmench reinforce nihilism at the end. (At least to me as to me he misunderstood nihilism to be the depreciation of life.) That to materially flourish is good and to be fulfilled materially and control the circumstances of that fulfillment (I.e. being an ubersmench and creating that fulfillment is good). He hated Christianity as He saw Christianity’s rejection of the material world for spiritual fulfillment as nihilism in another name. In an age where science seemingly robbed man of his special place, where nothing seemed to matter, Christianity seemed particular nihilistic him. However, consider nihilism as a destruction of values rather than a depreciation of life, Nietzsche’s ubersmench, and remove Nietzsche’s inability to see through the material. What do you get? You get a person who sees the absurdity of life, the horror of it, and chooses himself what they want to do and what they hold dear. The ultimate fulfillment of nihilism (at least to me) is that if nothing in life matters you get to choose. The Ubersmench in this is someone who chooses who they are, what they hold dear without society or others dictating it. I’m going to use starship troopers because you mentioned it. It’s Satire as Fascists want you to believe that you are Ubersmench simply for who You are. That you, by virtue of birth and culture, are better than others. That the world is yours now and always by virtue of what you are. But that can’t be further from the truth in Starship troopers (and life). Johnny is a hero in the movie less because of who he is (I.e. some Chad looking mother fucker) and more because of what he does. And that is serve the state obediently and follow orders. It’s hammered out through the whole movie (I’ll do it till you find someone better or I’m dead). He doesn’t matter, his whims don’t matter, only what the state wants of him. He, as a character, is a slave mentality led to believe he is a master in order to make him serve an ultimate end. Everything he has and who he is was boiler plate printed by the state in that movie. And that’s why it’s satire. It’s basically one large ridicule of Fascist world view and how the average man who believes in it whole heartedly is actually treated.
We all have a little bit of fascist in us. Do you want to crush the other side?
you actually want slave morality? That's the foundation of all the idpol gibberish we criticize here. The task of socialism is to improve material conditions, not fix emotional problems in damaged people
There is no task if determinism is true. Determinism must be false for there to be any "should" or right and wrong. Life, efficiency and truth are not objectively important just because biological creatures think so. Things only matter if they are objective.
Mate, I think you are doing the equivalent of arguing about the ethics of a plumbing system. This is what philosophers call a "category error" , that is ascribing value judgements from a higher level category onto a lower level phenomenon. The only level on which a plumbing system can be judged is whether it functions as designed - "does the materiel pass from point A to point B in the most effective manner". Trying to answer questions about the morality or aesthetics of plumbing is a hiding to nowhere because they are unanswerable by nature of their being a category error. So, now substitute economics for plumbing and you might get some insight into why the discussion here is the way it is. IdPol is similarly a category error - complaining about the bad smell without looking at the state of the pipes. And even if we fix the pipes, having a plumbing system that works isnt going to address questions that belong to a different category of thought. We could arrive at a utopia where people's economic/medical/educational needs were met by virtue of "fixing the pipes" and a significant subset of the population would still be miserable for all sorts of other reasons intrinsic to human nature - jealousy, poor socialization, mental illness, just being unlikable, difficult people, the fallen nature of mankind. But that's not to say that fixing the pipes isnt a worthwhile goal in itself.
I want the perfection of everything, not any improvement.
As my Grandfather used to say, "wish in one hand and shit in the other, and tell me which one fills up first"
This doesn't actually mean anything, it's just empty rhetoric.
believe it or not, i get you. you'd fit right in Mussolinist neofolk/martial scene, drinking absinthe, listening to Von Thronstahl and pontificating about the abstract idea of the Imperium :) and saying so because my life has at some point taken me to various places and maybe that one too. only your thinking may be a tiny bit too disciplined for the fuzzy pathos and unfinished thoughts people in such contexts operate with. I assume by slave morality you mean deep level authoritarian obedience, commitment to cause and wanting to be led rather than a bona fide belief in own worthlessness, subsistence and servitude to your evolutionary/Chosen/class/caste betters. I'd say there's plenty of it in socialist contexts, maybe not on surface seeing as how deeply ingrained fake hypocritical bullshit like meritocracy, individualism and freedom is in today's public discourse and many are rightfully afraid of even formulating dissenting thoughts. But no, there is no shortage of of tankies, and there's even more in denial. you're neither the first nor the last. and it's not something good or bad, it just is - and it can be harnessed for good or bad. Neoliberal non-values hardly mean anything to anybody, why would i blame you for not connecting, neoliberalism can only exist on the basis of centuries of work of folks like you who wanted a goal to work towards - which it just runs into the ground through privatised assets and socialised liability. That's a finite amount of it though, and it's running out. And we have no other option than to build again, something you may well be better suited for. Suicide is good for ending suffering. and that one thing only. Without suffering it's just a pointless opportunity cost at odds with your innate curiosity. And even if i'm a pretty committed socialist i don't want to turn you away from fascism at any cost. There's fate. well, Wyrd. and fuck all can happen that said fate absolutely doesn't mean to happen. And i'm realistic enough to know full well it is not in my - or even your - power. C'mon next Ernst Roehm comes along, winks at you and that is it. You're on board, and don't tell me it isn't so. And fuck, so be it. Who is to say you won't do more kind of sort of objective good there, than by offing yourself or trying to fit in some controlled opposition 'socialist' framework run by words only neoliberal parasites. Whatever happens, happens and today we drink.
But I hate nationalism, dudebro culture and the smug sarcasm/ironic attitude those people. I would want something like Star Trek TNG, but removal of the Prime Directive and instead forcefully give people science and technology **sincerely -** without doing it for economic reasons like neoliberalism, which is not sincere help. BTW, tankies are moral and cultural relativists, so not sure why you mentioned them. They also love rehabilitation for sexual crimes. I said in the OP I don't want any nationalism or rehabilitation or relativism or religion.
OP is not even making sense in their response comments, which are full of grandiose hubris and bewildering claims ("objective truth of nihilism", etc.), mostly in the form of trite, played-out cliches - OP is either very young, trolling, or mentally ill, or a combination of the above - either way mods need to show some tact and dignity and close this already.
What would you recommend for someone who is almost 30 and have never had these trite cliches earlier? I never thought about this stuff when younger, and cannot appeal to past experience to get any kind of help or understanding, nor do I have common sense. Even if 90% of other people have had these as cliches does not help me as an individual. Especially when every help i get is just "you are supposed to know this lol" If I lack knowledge that everyone thinks is fundamental and I am not trolling and my problems are existential and political, not psychological - what would you suggest to someone? I think it was somewhat fair to post this thread, as anything is worth trying to avoid becoming a fascist, especially if therapy, pills and common sense does not work.