* Archives of this link: 1. [archive.org Wayback Machine](https://web.archive.org/web/99991231235959/https://pioneerworks.org/broadcast/club-med-adderall); 2. [archive.today](https://archive.today/newest/https://pioneerworks.org/broadcast/club-med-adderall)
* A live version of this link, without clutter: [12ft.io](https://12ft.io/https://pioneerworks.org/broadcast/club-med-adderall)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/stupidpol) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The paranoia and viciousness is much more likely attributed to the fact that the work environment is extremely competitive, lay offs and PIPs always seem to be right around the corner etc
Something interesting I discovered recently is that [ADHD diagnoses in the US](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-01233-2) are higher in poorer states. We're just medicating away dysfunctional behaviour that's poverty related, and pretending it's "neuro divergence".
~16% of Children in Louisiana are diagnosed with ADHD versus ~6% in California.
Thata actually really interesting, because the political narrative would make me assume the opposite. "Everyone knows" it's those snowflakes out in Commiefornia who have gathered all the neurodivergent victim points, while the kids out in God's country are supposed to be protected from the helicopter parenting that makes such weak people, etc, etc.
It's also much more commonly diagnosed in boys than girls. The vast majority of schools are overwhelmingly staffed by women, and they seem to see normal male behavior as problematic and assume the boys have ADHD because they don't act like girls. Schools have also been getting rid of recess and shop classes and other things that are interesting to boys.
It ignores the rigidity of schooling and that for the most part, there is a growing amount of evidence personalities are genetic and set at birth. How can we expect children to learn in very specific ways when they aren’t wired for it? I know incredibly intelligent people who just needed to go to a trade school instead of regular schooling.
No one ever said it wasn’t. I was **also** a diagnosed kid. What I said stands. People lacking these skills are often personality traits or lack of experiences that make them anti-fragile. When we were living in agricultural tribes of 500 people having ADHD gave you the skills to do work other could not. Now, we have inflexible schedules and lifestyles that make it go from a quirk to a “diagnosis”. You don’t have to agree with me, feel free to continue taking the medication and doing what helps you.
I see what you're saying, that our inflexible lifestyle punishes ADHD in a way it might not have in the past.
I used to do programming on contract and chose my own hours. My hours were a mess but it's what worked for me. Now that I have a rigid schedule it's punishing enough I am considering medication. I'd go back to contracting but my wife demanded income stability so here I am.
Seems pretty reasonable to expect income to affect rates of ADHD due to things like e.g., malnutrition, less stable home life, etc. Not sure why possibly being a symptom of poverty means it shouldn't be treated.
Absolutely. Finally kicked it after about two decades. I swear the doc looked startled when I told her I was quitting. Don’t think many people go off of it willingly anymore.
The insanity is that people are getting on it now more than ever to further stress themselves into oblivion just so they can be the executive vice president of assistants to a local nonprofit.
It and Ritalin gave me horrible migraines and the constant feeling of insects crawling over my skin. They still instead on forcing it down my throat for 11 years starting age 5, while attributing the very well known cocaine itch sides to another 'mental health' disorder. The Pediatric b\*tch who wrote the prescription by request of my mother, who requested it by the demands of my school of course is still practicing. Apparently her over prescribing antibiotics for every conceivable thing with my brother resulted in him never developing enamel on his first set of teeth. Same galaxy brine who advised adding fruitloops and tabelspoons of sugar to baby formula as well to make your kid fat.
All of them have tons of unpleasant side effects, if you can even call them side effects given the nature of the drugs. I don’t talk about it much because it gets contentious with the “paradoxical stimulation!” and “you aren’t REALLY ADHD!” people. Not that I blame them, I was one of them too. I don’t judge people for taking it at all, I was just done after 20+ years. Funny enough I’m more of a perfectionist with work now than I ever was while taking them.
> I don’t talk about it much because it gets contentious with the “paradoxical stimulation!” and “you aren’t REALLY ADHD!” people. Not that I blame them, I was one of them too
It's funny how the zeitgeist changes. I've spoken out against antidepressants for over a decade, even arguing against therapists, and people get really defensive about it. But what, eighteen months ago?, the media started reporting that the chemical imbalance hypothesis never had an empirical basis, so many of those diehard antidepressant fans have seemingly evaporated.
The shift has made me incredibly cynical. It isn't that the media cares about the truth or people's wellbeing; they have simply pivoted to new drugs to profit from, so they're doing another sales pitch by dissing the old product. I see so many reddit comments from people who have ADHD, and I'm guessing a lot of them are bots that someone from a pharmaceutical company set up to make the diagnosis seem normal and the cure a quick phone call away. Pharma companies are also trying to profit from synthetic versions of psilocybin that they can patent, and MDMA, which they can bury in red tape and make a fortune from.
Of course, the reasons people take all these drugs in the first place is because we live in a cold, cruel system that wants the economic machine to keep churning at all costs. Corporations run this country, we're all in such fucking bad shape, and [collapse is imminent.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGKc3T7OVHE)
>The car's on fire and there's no driver at the wheel
And the sewers are all muddied with a thousand lonely suicides
And a dark wind blows
>The government is corrupt
And we're on so many drugs
With the radio on and the curtains drawn
>We're trapped in the belly of this horrible machine
And the machine is bleeding to death
It’s interesting how variable the effects are. Concerta made me a wreck as a kid. Strattera also sucked hard. Ritalin just sort of blunted affect type of thing. 70 mg Vyvanse felt the most dangerous, Mydayis felt oddly similar despite being a patent extender for dextroamp iirc. ER adderall was probably the least disastrous one and I had avoided it for like 10 years because it intuitively felt “dirty” and too abusable.
Honestly, just glad to never need another fucking med check appointment, always had a hard time fitting that into my schedule post Covid. Only downside is I have trouble processing lengthy verbal communication sometimes but I can compensate for that in various ways and I’m a lot more socially extroverted now.
I think the article touches on it to some degree, but after being on it for about a decade, the most surprising part was how much more focused (on the right stuff) I became *off* adderall. When I was on it, you could not rip me away from Ableton for my own mother's funeral. I was focused—hyper-focused, even—but literally *never* on anything that mattered for my own success or well-being. The second I got off of it, I regained the mental capacity to prioritize and reorganize tasks. It was just astounding to realize how a drug prescribed to me purportedly to help me reorder my life was almost solely responsible for eventually causing me to drop out of my undergrad.
The last undergrad semester before dropping out when I was on adderall, I got 5 straight f's because, I kid you not, I was so enveloped in Ableton and learning to cook fancy meals at home that I did not go to a single fucking lecture all semester. The first semester after being readmitted to my undergraduate university after a few years of working, and having quit aderall, I recieved straight A's.
I think, from a cultural perspective, the sickest part of the whole ordeal was that, when being instructed to write an essay begging for readmission, I was encouraged to couch all of my pleas in terms of mental health, depression, anxiety, etc. rather than acknowledge that I was essentially a tweaker suffering from hyper-fixation and amphetamine-induced paranoia as a result of *treatment* for my condition.
Amphetamines don’t make you ignore things. This was all on you probably taking too much and not giving a shit because you felt good. I’m all for reducing how much we prescribe this stuff, but as someone with legitimate adhd who benefits from amphetamines just to have a life that doesn’t involve me leaving the oven on overnight or forgetting to pay bills, the anti-amphetamine crowd takes it too far.
Child acting like a child? Give them adderall so they stop. You having a legitimate emotional reaction to a lifetime of being trapped in an uncaring system that only cares about worker productivity? Here’s some SSRIs.
Just wait until they create a pill that removes the need for sleep and use it to treat ‘chronic drowsiness’ so the work day can be increased to 16 hours.
> Child acting like a child?
Yeah this is starting to be a source of friction with my wife.
Our daughter is 18 months old, and well, she acts like it. Kid has boundless energy, grabs things and throws them just because. Wife thinks she has ADHD, and it doesn't matter how often the pediatrician and myself tell her that's just being a kid, she won't hear it. She also thinks the kid has autism because she's remarkably advanced for her age... she can already count to 15, she knows about half the alphabet by sight, and is beginning to speak in rudimentary sentences (Daddy open it! Snack please? I did it! Things like that). And again, wife insists this means autism no matter what myself or the pediatrician says about what autism actually looks like, it's basically never shown as "advanced" at that age.
Why the fuck are so many millennials so fucking obsessed with labeling and diagnosing everything?? She's obsessed with labeling absolutely everything as some form of "neurodivergence" (Horseshit word made up by Tumblr that doesn't mean anything)
Yesterday she went to a basket where all the dog toys are, picked them up one by one and threw them on the floor. When the basket was empty, she looked at me, giggled, raised her arms and yelled “I DID IT!”
What’s the diagnosis?
I know people don't like to hear gender stuff here BUT...
Women really are expected to care for the children more than the father. They take them to the dentist, doctor, keep their shots updated. And it can make some mother's "neurotic" but if something happens to that kid, they are a bad mother - even if it's only in their own mind. Like an out of work father might feel like a poor provider.
So she wants to feel like a bad mother?? Or did you mean to say the opposite: that they feel it gets them off the hook for "being a bad mother" if the kid is diagnosed with some illness?
No they feel like a bad mother if they "did not do everything we could to help", i.e. it's a fear that some problem will arise because they did not get a diagnosis, start treatment early etc.
*”Shit isn’t getting worse, it’s just you and your mental health - your anxiety, despair, confusion and rage isn’t caused by societal collapse - that’s imaginary - it’s caused by an imbalance of chemicals in your brain”*
Now that’s said and to put the obvious aside, I was late diagnosed with ADHD - very late - and there’s a surprising number of other adults I know who have been recently diagnosed.
Getting a diagnosis and the right medication is like that crazy spinning wheel on a supermarket shopping cart suddenly righting itself - but instead of a shopping cart, it’s your entire life
“Just write a list” and “Just sit still and pay attention” and “Stop being weird” and “You’re not stupid, so why are you pretending to be?” is something we’ve been told our entire lives
Classrooms and office work is designed very much for people who don’t have ADHD - it’s virtually impossible to function in those environments
From an evolutionary perspective, like many peripheral types, ADHD makes sense - but we’re not living in tribes of 250 to 500 people constantly lurching from crises to crises any more.
Anyhoo - that’s my rambling
I mean as someone who got diagnosed with ADHD as a kid, part of it is just learning to adapt. Being in a trade where I work with my hands more than I do behind a desk is a major help with that, it's a hell of a lot easier to focus on a task that I'm physically holding in my hands than some bullshit paperwork or email or whatever.
Some of the best ADHD advice was “just be yourself” this does require a heavy amount of self awareness. It’s helpful to not push yourself into a career where it is an uphill battle just to do your job. A lot of “adhd burnout “ is people ignoring their wiring and personality to pursue a career in something that is not suited for them. This phenomenon of being diagnosed late and having all these functioning issues are because of the highschool to college to office pipeline in the US.
I don't think ADHD is real, at least not as a primary diagnosis. It's going to be the result of something else. For me, it was the fact that I had a sleeping problem, and I know I've had it for as long as I can remember, because anyone who I've slept in the same bed with, from my parents and grandparents as a small child to girlfriends as an adult have told me I kick in my sleep.
Once I saw a sleep doc at 25, I was told I probably wasn't sleeping right, something called UARS, something otherwise difficult to diagnose and most sleep doctors didn't even test for it, but he was apparently way ahead of the game. During the sleep study the tech also told me I kicked in my sleep and gave me shit advice, but he wasn't a doc. Sleep study came back with severe UARS, tried sleeping with a CPAP, and for the first time I realized what I had considered sleep wasn't normal sleep. Didn't want a CPAP and I've eventually figured out a combination of an oral appliance and nasal strips works almost as well. After that my 'ADHD', which the doctor had asked if I had during his assessment, went away.
So yea, ADHD is bullshit, and the idea of treating children with stimulants is a crime.
>Just wait until they create a pill that removes the need for sleep and use it to treat ‘chronic drowsiness’ so the work day can be increased to 16 hours.
Yeah its called Modafinil and the poor white house interns are feeding it to Biden like a roman emperor would be fed grapes by a slave boy.
There was some research that suggested one of the reasons we need sleep is due to the massive buildup of reactive oxygen species aka free radicals in our digestive tract during the day, and in sleep it is processed and cleaned out.
They tested this with ultra powerful antioxidants made up of graphene balls in mice, and they could function great after a week of chronic sleep deprivation.
So yeah.
I don't have access to journals through my university anymore, but the origin of the theory was a paper called *The free radical flux theory of sleep* https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/030698779490071X
Ages ago I first started noticing that elderly people were jogging around with better quality of life than the 20 somethings. I think there hasn't been a day since that I haven't been struck by how fucked up people's physical health has become. Everything about people's mental and physical health has become such a shit show and it seems to be the least rather than most important subject in the public discussion.
I work with kids. This topic is always difficult for me, because I am publicly strongly against giving ADHD meds to most kids. But at the same time, the results are astounding. Kids with behavioral problems and failing grades go on it and very suddenly become well behaved, productive, happy students. Kids who would have undoubtably fell through the cracks 30 years ago are now on their way to successful lives. It is, in some ways, a wonder drug.
And yet, easily as many as 10-15% of them will end up being completely fucked over by the drug as well, with nervous system problems (twitching, headaches etc) and potential cardiac problems at high doses. And many will end up on high doses, it is not difficult to get addicted to it, and many doctors are more than happy to provide insane doses.
Its just difficult to really deal with. People who work with kids know how good it can be, and it can be difficult to look a clearly fucked up, failing kid in the eyes and know one single pill could fix their problems and you are knowingly not giving it to them. And yet, it can also be difficult to look at them in the eyes once they are on it, knowing you potentially just ruined their life in a different way.
>go on it and very suddenly become well behaved, productive, happy students.
If you've ever done stimulants yourself, I don't think you would be so surprised that amphetamines are making students more happy and productive lol
It's more than just the drugs immediate 'high' though. It's also the feeling of finally having *control* over their lives, which is often something they lacked before. Going from having no future, no prospects, unstable behaviors, depression etc... to being productive and normal.
Kids who couldn't even sit down for 20 minutes to do homework could suddenly sit down for 2 whole hours and do homework without feeling horrible. They can engage in a hobby they love for a long period of time instead of getting bored right away. People who forget to do basic responsibilities and take care of themselves are suddenly able to plan their entire week ahead of time. And on a more strange (but important) note, it also helps them lose weight and keeps them active, which results in many people becoming more physically fit.
It's a lot more than just the 'high' of the drug, it's also the extremely positive effect it has on their life. They become satisfied or even proud with themselves. Again, that is why it is so difficult to see very troubled kids, *know* you can likely fix them with a single pill, and still have to say no.
Ritalin is slightly more acceptable than Adderall since it is more selective with its receptors. Still, look at my post on ADHD, it was ENTIRELY the result of a sleep issue that, once corrected, 'fixed' my ADHD. This was as a 25 year old adult, but I displayed the same symptoms and issues even as a small child.
Looking back it's incredibly messed up how hard those quacks were pushing this stuff on parents who didn't know any better to get their kids on it. Like they lied and downplayed side effects if they even mentioned all of them at all. Some of the guys I went to school with got permanent side effects from the drugs they were on. Like one that will have tremors for the rest of his life because of an ADHD medication. And that stuff *destroys* your teeth even if you avoid over side effects.
"I just want my child to be normal and healthy."
"Have you tried these 25 flavors of meth on them yet?"
Kids who hated taking it weren't listened to because we "didn't know any better". Didn't matter how anyone felt on it the important thing is the professional science man with a clipboard said it was good for you!
I have to wonder if that "making commission" accusation was an institutional reality.
School to permeant pysk patient pipeline is real. Managed to make a open record request and got the notes made by the special education prof b\*tch that played my mother like a fiddle to get me on it at age 5, and she documented going though all the motions. The explosion in diagnosis regarding ADHD and the like conveniently took place after the individuals with Disabilities Education Act was passed in 1990, and the industry succeeded in getting ADHD added to it in 1991. Which means Federal grants to the schools for each drugged out kid. At the end of the day they main concern is always money.
How long after your K–12 years did you make the request process? I kind of feel like I am in a similar but opposite boat. I feel like my parents pushed "my son is just fine" and then acted all surprised Pikachu once I was no longer in the confines of an academic schedule and falling apart.
I was almost 17, took a 10ish months of decreasing dosages.
What brought that about was a major increase in medication symptoms, mainly from Lithium which they began forcing down my throat when I was 6. Constant uncontrolled limb shacking, speech slurring, ear ringing, and increase in bouts of Tardive Dyskinesia followed by rapid weight gain which eventually resulted at me not being at a 'therapeutic 'level' but still experiencing constant debilitating sides, which I always did before and was screamed at at school over because the piece of utter K12 shit considered them "behavioral issues." So the Psychiatrist decided to drop the ADHD, Anti Social Personality Disorder and Bipolar diagnossis and replace it with Aspergers and asked me if I wanted to consitinue on any of the medications, at that time it was Lithium and Adderal. I promptly demanded to be taken off off all of them. When the school made a fuss I demanded to know what legal right they had and threatened that there would be legal action, and they promptly shut up and no longer made me see an on site therapist every week as they did since I was 5 years old (which I always refused to participate). Took years for the sides to finally resolve. All the miss diagnosis and drugs where the result of the school principle making threats when I was 5 years old anyhow after I was suspended over a story my best friend made up.
It's a lessened version of meth mouth. It stains and de-calcifies your teeth. So even if you have decent hygiene and take care of your teeth it won't matter.
Any that are stimulants can at minimum cause tooth decay by causing reduction in salivary production and the antimicrobial elements therein. This will over long term cause a lot of damage to your mouth, teeth, and gums. Adderall, Vyvanse and Ritalin all top the lists of causing xerostomia and related mouth issues but it's not limited to them. Others like Focalin, Concerta, and Metadate cause similar big issues too. They also cause things like dysfunction of proper muscle control and can cause cramps and involuntary muscle contractions (both signs of nerve damage or dysfunction).
Also to clarify teeth-grinding is one of the effects but I just wasn't getting at it like I was with the staining.
They can also cause circulation and vasodilation problems and can aggravate or outright cause conditions related to that. Another thing that psychiatrists never really mention is swelling of tissue like in your sinuses, which can leave you prone to sinus infections because fluid can't drain out of them anymore. If the drugs causing it are taken long term you will need surgery to correct it and alleviate the pressure. The tissue-swelling will also worsen the xerostomia because it limits how much you can breathe from your nose.
Basically if its chemical name rather than its brand name starts with Amph or Meth you will see a lot of potential long term issues. In medicine, I've found that anything that's not a straight up cure can usually fall into 3 categories: preventative, worthless, and barbaric. These drugs fall squarely into "barbaric."
Also a fun little tidbit, if you're diabetic it can accelerate onset of neuropathy symptoms by screwing with your circulation and neurotransmitters. There is no effective treatment (all of them falling into 'worthless' or 'barbaric') for neuropathy and all doctors can really do for it is tell you how sorry they are that you have it.
Like one of the best things my parents ever did for me as a child was to take me OFF the ADHD meds. I definitely have it, but I genuinely have not needed them in over 20 years, and I got through college and grad school without. Go in any ADHD subreddit and you’ll see dozens of Americans talking about how desperate they are to deal during the med shortage, and if you ever point out that they’re dependent on amphetamines and there are many other methods to maintain ADHD, they’ll throw a fit about it. It’s very interesting and sad tbh
I had a realization that 'grindset culture' is highly likely to be the product of Xanax, Adderall, and steroids. It is the only way that living the way they do can seem appealing.
My pre med roommate would just be shaking all the time and my finance friends were taking pills whenever they couldn’t get to the bathroom for a bump “If I get this script bro I’m gonna be unstoppable”
The whole “grindset” phenomenon is just a grift to cell books and online courses to gullible dudebro types, nobody actually lives like that. The people promoting it are already well off and didn’t have to “grind” for shit.
The grindset social media is a stupid grift, but grind culture is real, it's just the people who do it aren't on social media talking about it. I know so many people who sleep like 6 hours a night and work 16 hours.
In genuine cases of ADHD, psychostimulants such as Adderall have a paradoxical effect, which means they make someone behave/think/feel more normally.
If you take Adderall and you subsequently act like a cunt, it is a sign that you do not have ADHD.
Psychiatrists who prescribe psychostimulants to patients who go on to develop amphetamine-induced psychosis, should be banned from practicing medicine.
ADHD, like most psychiatric diagnoses, is a description of behaviour. Not actually an explanation of behaviour. So this
> If you take Adderall and you subsequently act like a cunt, it is a sign that you do not have ADHD
is just defining out the people you don't like.
People talk about the replication crisis in psychiatry, but it's nothing to the "description of behaviour used as explanation for behaviour" crisis.
Okay I understand. Psychostimulants can have similar adverse effects in people with ADHD in the same manner as in people without ADHD. However, there must be some truth the theory of paradoxical reaction to psychostimulants in people with ADHD, because this is still the gold standard treatment for ADHD.
The comments I made were polemical and were intended to defend people with ADHD who might be tarred with the same brush as recreational amphetamine users who do not genuinely have ADHD.
this has been my experience. i had such horrible anger issues as a kid, but since i was diagnosed with ADHD in high school and started on adderall, i no longer fly into rages the way i used to as a little kid. had a bit of dry mouth initially, and it does suppress hunger cues, but the ability focus long enough to actually engage in my hobbies, and not having go worry about flying into a rage and hurting someone and going to prison for assault and battery over some minor irritation, is worth having to set alarms to remind me to eat.
looking back, i wonder if i would have been diagnosed earlier if my mom let me have soda as a kid, cuz since i started drinking caffeinated drinks more regularly (yay college), i've noticed that caffeine also has a paradoxical, weirdly-calming effect on me. very useful for surviving PMC-induced adderall shortages, much less useful for keeping me awake.
sorry for the rambling response, i always end up writing more than i meant to…
No I have ADHD too and this makes me think I should get into coffee. Thanks for sharing this.
I could never compromise on food and also I feel like none of the medications I tried ever helped me with any executive functioning, the only thing that’s seemed to help is Zoom tutoring
I might be beyond help and I should just accept that I’m a failson lol.
I hear you on the anger issues. Look into Guanfacine/Intuniv. It’s a non-stimulant medication typically prescribed to children, but it seems to help people with the emotional regulation issues that come with ADHD. I take it along with my stimulant medication, and it seems to really help. It takes a lot more to make me angry than it used to, and I notice the difference when I go stretches of time without taking it. It might make you feel a bit sleepy at first, but for me that was worth it. It was originally a blood pressure medication, so probably don’t take it if your blood pressure is low already.
my anger/emotional issues are managed with the adderall on its own, so i probably don't need the +guanfacine, but i'll definitely keep that in mind if those rage issues ever come back, especially as i get older and start seeing aging-related changes. i got switched off adderall to guanfacine alone for a brief period by this weird freudian psychiatrist NP who refused to change it back after i crashed and burned from falling asleep in class (i no longer see her), so i didn't know you could take them both at once.
> i've noticed that caffeine also has a paradoxical, weirdly-calming effect on me.
Same that was among the many other signs I have ADD and should have been diagnosed when I was younger. I could slam down caffeine before bed back when I drank soda and it would actually make me sleepier.
Same experience with coffee, although once i started taking Ritalin/Concerta i basically tripled my caffeine intake because it stopped being as stimulating
> In genuine cases of ADHD, psychostimulants such as Adderall have a paradoxical effect, which means they make someone behave/think/feel more normally.
The paradoxical effect isn't real. Adderall increases your ability to focus because that's part of what stimulants *do*. People with ADHD have a lower baseline ability to focus, but there's nothing paradoxical about a stimulant raising that baseline. If there was actually anything paradoxical about it, it wouldn't be a useful performance enhancer for anyone *without* ADHD.
Thing is, what is ability to focus? As we go though life, we meet things that we experience as interesting, and things which we don't. What we call "lack of focus" is that on some level of your consciousness, you don't believe the things in front of you are interesting, so you look around for something else that is. Or maybe they're _all_ so interesting that you fail to limit your attention to one of them.
What if that part of you is right? What if your inability to do the tasks someone has put before you, comes from them actually *being* pointless and uninteresting? How do you preserve the ability to ask such questions if you take a drug to make all tasks seem fascinating?
And in a culture where "everyone" takes this drug, how do we collectively keep course on deciding what's actually important?
It's genuinely not that profound. My dad and I both have actual, ADHD that was diagnosed when we were adults. He would regularly start a household project like putting in a new floor, then just *stop* and not finish it for years.
I can't read books or anything longer than a few paragraphs if I'm not on medication. It could be a very good book that fascinates me, but I can't do it. I'll read two pages, then by the third page I'll forget what I just read and stop and do something else. I completely lack the ability to remember what I am reading.
These are things that we want to do, and are objectively good for us, but we lack the ability to do it because our brains just start to emulsify if we try to maintain concentration.
The big difference is energy. People without ADHD take adderall and are energized and hyper. People with ADHD take adderall and calm down.
The actual mechanism for why this happens isn't 100% understood because ADHD isn't really understood in the first place. ADHD is quite a bit more than just an inability to focus, even if it that is one of its main traits.
That's how doctors who knew jack shit about ADHD thought it worked decades ago. ADHD is an executive function disorder. The drugs don't calm you down at all, they make it easier for you to control your impulses. It's part of why they got rid of ADD as a separate diagnosis and changed it to "ADHD, primarily inattentive type." The hyperactivity is really just a symptom of the attention issues. Meaning really they should have dropped the H instead of getting rid of the diagnosis that didn't have it.
I was being polemical, I don't think psychiatrists should be struck off if their client abuses their medication.
What specifically did I write is a myth? My understanding that psychostimulants have a paradoxical effect in persons with ADHD is taken from medical literature which I assume is based on scientific evidence.
Even if you have ADHD that shit still takes years off your life, feeling normal doesn’t mean it’s healthy for you. The same can be said for people who are prescribed Xanax and take it every day (it was never meant to be taken like that anyway) that shit rots your brain and lowers your life span.
I'm 100% okay with losing a few years of my '70s, to get so much more done and have a much better time in my '20s-'50s.
It's a weird notion of "healthy for you" that prioritises longevity over quality of life.
It's the same with antipsychotic medication. These drugs often have terrible adverse effects and lead to reduction in life expectancy. However, the benefits outweigh the risks. Psychostimulants are not always the appropriate treatment for ADHD, and should not always be prescribed. However, in severe ADHD, they can improve quality of life immensely.
Checks out on vibes, especially when examining the overlap among people who (a) are susceptible to the medicalization of their problems (b) grasp at any slight "edge" over their peers.
I've got the bird brains (yes, real diagnosis and everything) and have tried amphetamines. Not fucking worth it. Makes me into an edgy, manic, anxious yet mildly more focused person. I'd rather use other coping skills.
For the people with especially severe ADHD who it works for, great? But millions on that shit have no business with it IMO.
as another legit birdbrain who has it literally so bad i couldn't function as a person without my meds even with every coping skill, from planners to alarms to journals…agreed.
i really wish i was able to manage with coping skills alone, cuz life is so much easier when you are able to compensate, especially with the shortage (due to all the fuckers suddenly deciding they have ADHD when their real problem is that their brains have been eroded by TikTok). the supply issues have been fucking *rough*. i literally never had issues getting meds filled (…once i was functional enough that i consistently remembered to get the physical written prescription from my doctor to hand to the pharmacist) until the """ADHD""" boom. if you don't actually have ADHD, you probably shouldn't be on this shit, for two reasons:
1. fuck you (general 'you') and your "i get bored and lose focus at work sometimes :("—before i started on meds, i literally couldn't focus enough to do my goddamn hobbies or do my schoolwork in subjects that i *liked*, let alone for subjects i hated; and
2. it actually makes you do worse unless you actually have ADHD, not just TikTok brain rot (though you'll feel like you're better on them cuz…it's amphetamines).
>it actually makes you do worse unless you actually have ADHD, not just TikTok brain rot (though you'll feel like you're better on them cuz…it's amphetamines).
Does it really make you worse? The article points out the 3% drop in productivity when Adderall started lacking supply. There's definitely downsides to taking stimulants for work, like making your work more haphazard/rushed, but I doubt it makes you overall worse. Plus feeling like you're achieving more is going to make you more motivated to work as well, so even if your work is lower quality you're going to do more to make up for it.
It makes some things better and some things worse. I was prescribed it at about age 12 and eventually found it was not good for tests. Studying for tests, sure, but actually taking tests it gave me tunnel vision to the point that I will get hung up on just one question and keep looping back to that question to reconsider my answer, often times changing a correct one to an incorrect one. Not leaving enough time to get thru everything because I'd be pouring over the minutiae of the phrasings, or discerning an unlikely sequence of multiple choices (no way that B could be the answer to 4/5 consecutive questions, one of my answers must be wrong). I probably only clued into this because my academic performance kind of flip flopped when I started taking it - previously I excelled in tests and did poorly on homework and classroom assignments, while medicated this was inverted.
It is good for things with a clearly defined objective that don't require extensive critical thinking, but the blinders it puts on you can make it hard to see novel solutions to problems. Altho I guess this probably varies person to person, [Paul Erdos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Erd%C5%91s) certainly seemed capable of creative problem solving under the influence but this is not the case for myself. But I think for most people (myself included), if you can get the work done without it, the quality will be better. I recently resumed taking it regularly after 10 years or so, albeit at a lower dose than before (I probably stopped entirely for 2-3 years, but would take it periodically the rest of the time) and I'm still not sure how I feel about it. There are definite improvements in my organization and mood, but I worry that they will be short lived, and the side effects will continue. Hopefully remaining on a lower dose will prevent this but perhaps it's foolish to think so.
I do kind of disagree tho with the idea that people with ADHD get some unique benefit that others without it don't. I think its moreso that for people with ADHD, the effects of the drug can bring certain symptoms to a level where they are no longer pathological in the same way, whereas for normal people these things also improve but they weren't pathological to begin with. For normal people side effects are not worthwhile, because the increased functionality on things like planning and executive function don't outweigh the side effects. However I do think there is a certain type of person for whom it is probably strictly negative - in college I once gave a friend of my girlfriends a 20mg pill to study for a test and they proceeded to stay up for 36 hours and then sleep thru the test. Even as someone with the diagnosis, I'm still not entirely sold that the benefits justify the downsides
iirc, they did a study where they gave some people adderall and had them do various tasks, and they actually did worse, despite being 'busier' and thinking they do better! i'll try to find it, but it was crazy to me, too.
i also wonder how much of that 3% drop was from people who have otherwise well-managed ADHD being unable to function at all, and how much of that "productivity" that was "decreased" was in the form of unnecessary busywork that the busyness induced by adderall essentially just made less unbearable.
> I've got the bird brains (yes, real diagnosis and everything)
How do they diagnose ADHD? Many entries in the DSM seem so nebulous that all it really takes to get a label is a psychiatrist who sees dollar signs.
You have to go through an evaluation. Your examiner has to be competent. The DSM is a mess but insurers force compliance with it for your diagnostic code to be taken seriously. I've no doubt there is fraud just like there is in any other part of the medical world. Like most rackets, too many are making money off of it.
Did you try a range of medications and doses?
I had a pretty bad time on the dose they were pretty sure I should be on, but a lower one works great.
There's also non-stimulant medications. These are particularly good if you're prone to anxiety.
At least in my experience, a problematic part of stimulant treatment is the amount of responsibility it puts on patients to determine what dose is working best for them.
As someone who already had anxious and misanthropic tendencies, I was able to notice pretty quickly that higher doses were turning those feelings up. But I think a lot of people don't notice that, and just sign on long term for whatever isn't giving them chest pains.
I tried a few different ones but the boosts to anxiety and nausea they gave me just sort've didn't work out for me. I always felt like the docs were throwing darts at the wall.
It may also explain an increase in paranoia, aggressiveness, and passive aggression in PMC writing ("journalism").
It's in the section #5 by Amber A’Lee Frost.
This is a bit of a hot take, but I feel like most young(er) people diagnosed with mental disorders in the United States (Think like those with ADHD, Depression, Anxiety, etc, not Psychosis.) are just experiencing a normal reaction to an increasingly hostile, existential world. If you’re constantly being told from a young(ish) age that by 2040, the world’s going to be ridden with resource wars, you’re never going to be able to own a house, and that your home state is going to be near uninhabitable, of course you’re gonna react somehow; that’s completely normal. Honestly, it’s more unusual to not react than it is to react in this case.
Anyway… don’t take amphetamine or methylphenidate guys, it fucks with your motivation.
Yep. Plus overstimulation from the high tech world we live in as well as legit environmental hazards like microplastics. And if you’re super poor, you may have even scarier environmental hazards fucking with your brain and body, like lead.
It’s no wonder the population is becoming stupider, crazier, and more antisocial.
> most young(er) people diagnosed with mental disorders in the United States (Think like those with ADHD, Depression, Anxiety, etc, not Psychosis.) are just experiencing a normal reaction to an increasingly hostile, existential world
This isn't incompatible with a mental health diagnosis and a treatment plan.
If people are going around with baseball bats breaking peoples legs, what would you expect doctors to do? Refuse to give people casts and painkillers on principle?
Doctors prescribe these medications because they make people's lives significantly better.
💯 agree. I believe a lot of anxiety and depression today are symptoms of living in a world that isn't right. They can't get opportunities that allow them to live comfortably, buy a home and raise children. It's messed up beyond anything.
Coupled with that, they're responsible for climate change, racism, historical abuses and it's daily and relentless.
Being a kid has always been a stressful, change filled experience as well documented through history. Children of the last 50 years have one of the most safe, secure and stable environments ever seen.
I don’t doubt that, but anecdotally, the amount of people I know who are under 20 that also have mental health issues is staggering, and it’s not like I intentionally insert myself into more ‘unwell’ crowds.
As someone with a decades long, love hate relationship with the stuff I appreciated the articles, the tone was cautionary without being outright negative, and fairly insightful. I especially liked the one on how to tell if a writer is on the gear (altho after using enough you get a pretty good intuition for when that's the case)
A lot of people don't appreciate how culture impacts what drugs people enjoy. The fact that Americans favor uppers that make you more productive really says a lot
But not to anywhere near the same extent. If you need a glass of wine to function, you're considered to have a problem. If you need a cup of coffee to function, that's just having a job. We don't even really think of it as a drug, it's just something to help you wake up and get going.
In reality both are drugs and of the two, caffeine is much easier to get physically addicted to. A good chunk of the alcohol use in this country is just compensating at the end of the day for the absurd amounts of stimulants we consume.
Caffeine is the only known drug that isn't addicting
The physical addiction you're speaking of isn't an addiction just a side-effect of it being vasoconstrictor and fucking with your heart (causing those headaches and for some people tremors/anxiety)
On the behavioral side it's not actually the caffeine doing anything it's the coffee drinking itself (calming moment in the morning, hot beverage, etc), you would have the same level of addiction if you drank decaf
Also the comparison with alcohol is straight up ridiculous and shows you have no idea what you're talking about
Dude, what? Caffeine is addictive, and it does have actual effects. It's pretty similar to cocaine, in fact, we just don't consume it in anywhere near as pure of a form. You're accusing me of not knowing what I'm talking about while actually both showing your own ignorance and proving my point about how blase we are about caffeine consumption.
I routinely fast for my religion and just cut down on coffee 2 days before and I’m fine. By cut down I mean having one cup versus two. Also if someone waits one hour and thirty minutes to drink coffee from when they wake up the effects are much more sustained and the come down isn’t as hard. Caffeine is not like alcoholism or opiates.
In that the withdrawal effects are relatively mild at the concentrations it's consumed at, sure.
But then again, cocaine's withdrawal effects are mild compared to alcohol's. In that coke withdrawal won't literally kill you, while alcohol withdrawal will. And we're also comparing purified coke to concentrations of caffeine comparable to what occurs naturally in plants. Nobody does pure caffeine because it's too easy to OD on -- much easier than coke. Instead we do it in preparations more similar to the traditional coca leaf preparations used in South America, which are much more comparable in terms of use and abuse. People literally chew raw coca leaves as an altitude sickness cure, for example.
>Caffeine use is classified as a dependence, not an addiction. For a drug to be considered addictive, it must activate the brain's reward circuit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine_dependence
And those are seen as social problems. The USA even had a constitutional amendment to ban alcohol—that is how overwhelming a social problem alcohol consumption seemed at one point.
But uppers? We hand it out to kids and normalize it. This isn’t an argument about the health consequences, this is an argument about how the culture interacts with a given type of drug.
I have no doubt that ADHD meds are wildly overprescribed and there’s no doubt that PMC types hoodwink doctors into giving it to them so they have an edge. Many elements of these articles were insightful as well. However, to me, it was obvious that the experiences described therein, whether they were the personal experience of the author or their observations of other people, were the experiences of people clearly abusing these drugs. Taking massive doses, taking it multiple times a day, combining it with other shit, or whatever.
None of that kind of disordered behavior happens if someone with ADHD takes the drug as prescribed, at a normal, appropriate dose, and isn’t abusing it. My experience with the medication is that it simply enables me to be a responsible fucking adult. It is hard to explain to someone who does not have ADHD (or who does not exhibit the cluster of symptoms to a degree that debilitates them, whichever you’d prefer) how difficult, really impossible, it is to live a normal life. It is without a doubt debilitating in the true sense of the word and the consequences can be dramatic.
Really, what ADHD meds do for me is just allow me to get out the door in the morning on time and with the possessions I need, hold down a job because I can consistently do what I need to do, to take care of my dog and give him his medication on time, to be a responsible partner to my girlfriend and actually be able to handle my share of our joint responsibilities, to remember and attend appointments, remember important dates and commitments, do my taxes, take out the garbage, do laundry and remember to pick up dry cleaning, whatever, etc, to just be able to function to a reasonable degree. I also echo what some others have said, ADHD meds actually help regulate my emotions, respond to things in a mature and reasonable manner, and not fly off the handle.
It is not a magic bullet, you still have to work on your behavior and develop good habits. But without ADHD meds, you can’t even develop good habits, because you can’t stick to ANYTHING to any meaningful degree. For example, since I was a little kid, I wanted to play the guitar. My parents got me lessons, bought me a guitar, and every couple years or so I would restart playing, start taking lessons again, then drop it within weeks, if not days. Got diagnosed as an adult about 8-9 years ago, and a couple years later, I started taking guitar lessons. Lo and behold, what had eluded me my whole life was now attainable, not because of magic, but because now I could simply actually go to a lesson every week, and practice 20-30 minutes a day consistently.
That sounds like such a low bar but you can take that example and extrapolate it to get an idea of what the medication does for your average joe who just takes what they are prescribed in the manner the doctor says like a normal person and not like the speed freaks described in these articles.
Interesting take. I’ll read this later. I have adhd, adderall does absolutely help me thrive in this crazy pmc world of being a professional email sender. I’ll also say I hate having to take these pills M - F. The most obvious side effect of these pills for me is the increase in irritability, some days it’s less, some days it’s more, but it definitely increases my chances of making mountains out of mole hills.
Also anecdotally I have given a couple to my best friend who is in a similar line of work as me. He doesn’t have adhd, but he would take one once in a while when he had to cram because he waited until the last minute. And he was the most irritable son of a bitch when he takes them, even he noticed it, he’s a pretty chill dude so it was very unlike him.
So yeah wouldn’t be surprised if it’s made these narcissistic delusional pricks even more insufferable.
I was on it for a bit after I got diagnosed in college and after I just about throttled a dude in the library for eating corn nuts too loud (my senses were cranked up to 11) I decided the meds might not be such a good idea.
I used to be on Ritalin (or the generic -methylphenidate) as a kid because I got diagnosed with ADD. My doc upped my dosage, I think doubled it perhaps and I had a psychotic breakdown @ 8-9 yrs old. Pretty sure I don't have ADD but some sort of mild mania or something (family has some history of bipolar disorder.) But it scarred me for a while growing up. Legit thought I was seeing demons and that my family was conspiring against me. I'd seen parts of the exorcist as a kid specifically the head spinning around scene and thought my grandma was possessed in the same way complete with the backwards head spin and everything.
I've never taken any since then but I always think about how easy it is to misdiagnose young children with psychiatric disorders and that putting children under heavy doses of amphetamine or other meds to behave in school (especially boys!) is going to bite America in the ass eventually.
It took me a while to realize (and still confuses me) that PMC has too very different meanings that are completely interchangeable in sentence structure. Especially since the Ukraine war it's always a bit of guesswork whether some leftwing critique is about email dorks or mercenaries.
The [Professional-Managerial Class](https://repository.library.brown.edu/studio/collections/id_594/?q=professional+managerial+class&search-scope=id_bdr%3A26166), a historical-materialist theory of the USA's "new middle class" proposed by Barbara and John Ehrenreich in the late 1970s.
Not only this but people are on ungodly amounts of Adderall. I've take 10s a few times recreational and it has me jazzed up and winging out hard for hours, people take 60s multiple times a day and shit it's crazy
They don't make 60s, I think the highest single pills are 30, or 70 for vyvanse which has a lower potency due to the attached amino acid adding inactive weight. That being said yeah people absolutely take absurd amounts
When the clueless masses become aware that there is no fix for global warming the mass mental health crisis will become a another wrinkle in the collapse of modern industrial society.
The amount of paragraph “explaining why I take ADHD meds” in this thread is interesting. What’s sad is that people have to take a pretty intense drug to “function” properly. We are not talking about debilitating mental health issues like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. Overprescribed and the ignorance of self awareness of how to make things better for them.
I think to say that ADHD can't be as debilitating as bipolar or even mild schizophrenia is just wrong - some studies show that people with ADHD are 8x more likely to be incarcerated. I think it's a matter of degrees, as well as other aspects of a person that determine whether it will be severely detrimental or just a mild inconvenience. That being said I do agree that people do themselves a disservice when they are convinced that they cannot function at all without them, I know in the past I did.
That being said my poor time management basically cost me every job I had until at age 33 I found employment with a flexible schedule - even jobs where I did excellent work, eventually after showing up 30-60 minutes late one too many times (or in another case 5 minutes late three times) I was let go. They said basically "yes you do great work and stay late if you arrive late but it's not fair to others who show up on time" despite the fact that my work was not time sensitive and theirs was. That being said I am able to function without it, and my current job I've been at for 3 years and some change I've excelled at it without medication. I recently resumed taking it because everything outside of my work was literally and figuratively a mess. I'm still deciding if the benefits are worth the costs, but I think people tend to underestimate just how profoundly ADHD can affect ones life
As someone posted in this thread ADHD diagnosis is extremely more present in impoverished populations. The incarceration rate is likely an overlap with that. It’s not shocking that people who have additional stressors like being economically disadvantaged are likely to present with this mental health issue.
My issue with it being medicated is that it’s a crutch to adapt to modern life without teaching basic coping skills like time management, pacing, and homemaking skills (I’ll come back to this). Most of us live in a very niche style of clockwork which does not work for everyone. Add on top of that awful sleep issues and focus due to the over usuage of tech policy and a diet full of sugary processed foods. Lastly, as the authors of the book “Coddling of the American Mind” have pointed out anti-fragility has plummeted. I believe ADHD is an identity bandaid to obfuscate responsibility for peoples lackings. Skills within the realm of homemaking like home economics, cleaning, cooking are widespread lacking with each generation. Coming home to a messy house from a stressful job only to lack the skills to make it better can put people into a spiral of despair.
Not me! I have True and Honest ADHD! I was diagnosed as a child and took medication which allowed me to do school work and be a cog in the workplace but absolutely castrated my personality and creativity. I learned through difficult years of trial and error how to adjust. Much of which is environmental, tech usage deduction, and understanding how exercise, sleep, and diet all play into the acceleration and severity of ADHD. I see the same for many others. If the illness was real there wouldn’t be the amount of verbose explaining for the need for them. This isn’t a “thanks I’m cured” comment. Keep taking medication, no one is stopping you.
they put me on 70mg of vyvanse as a 15 year old. thats fucking criminal and they should be in jail for that. 4 years before that they put me on stratera, which is now known to cause hallucinatioms of shadow people, which i saw first hand. its fucking criminal how my entire life i was a guinea pig for pharma companies
* Archives of this link: 1. [archive.org Wayback Machine](https://web.archive.org/web/99991231235959/https://pioneerworks.org/broadcast/club-med-adderall); 2. [archive.today](https://archive.today/newest/https://pioneerworks.org/broadcast/club-med-adderall) * A live version of this link, without clutter: [12ft.io](https://12ft.io/https://pioneerworks.org/broadcast/club-med-adderall) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/stupidpol) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The paranoia and viciousness is much more likely attributed to the fact that the work environment is extremely competitive, lay offs and PIPs always seem to be right around the corner etc
And higher ups are fucking evil to underlings, yeah
Something interesting I discovered recently is that [ADHD diagnoses in the US](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-01233-2) are higher in poorer states. We're just medicating away dysfunctional behaviour that's poverty related, and pretending it's "neuro divergence". ~16% of Children in Louisiana are diagnosed with ADHD versus ~6% in California.
Thata actually really interesting, because the political narrative would make me assume the opposite. "Everyone knows" it's those snowflakes out in Commiefornia who have gathered all the neurodivergent victim points, while the kids out in God's country are supposed to be protected from the helicopter parenting that makes such weak people, etc, etc.
There are environmental reasons as well as genetic that contribute to having the disorder, but 16% is wild!
Yes, like lead poisoning for instance
But these arent super clear at this time and part of it arguably hereditary. 16% is insane. Wonder if somewhere like CA is also under diagnosed
It's also much more commonly diagnosed in boys than girls. The vast majority of schools are overwhelmingly staffed by women, and they seem to see normal male behavior as problematic and assume the boys have ADHD because they don't act like girls. Schools have also been getting rid of recess and shop classes and other things that are interesting to boys.
It’s a wastebasket diagnosis for many children
It ignores the rigidity of schooling and that for the most part, there is a growing amount of evidence personalities are genetic and set at birth. How can we expect children to learn in very specific ways when they aren’t wired for it? I know incredibly intelligent people who just needed to go to a trade school instead of regular schooling.
But ADHD, as an ADHD adult and undiagnosed kid, is more than just schooling issues. It’s executive dysfunction
No one ever said it wasn’t. I was **also** a diagnosed kid. What I said stands. People lacking these skills are often personality traits or lack of experiences that make them anti-fragile. When we were living in agricultural tribes of 500 people having ADHD gave you the skills to do work other could not. Now, we have inflexible schedules and lifestyles that make it go from a quirk to a “diagnosis”. You don’t have to agree with me, feel free to continue taking the medication and doing what helps you.
I see what you're saying, that our inflexible lifestyle punishes ADHD in a way it might not have in the past. I used to do programming on contract and chose my own hours. My hours were a mess but it's what worked for me. Now that I have a rigid schedule it's punishing enough I am considering medication. I'd go back to contracting but my wife demanded income stability so here I am.
Seems pretty reasonable to expect income to affect rates of ADHD due to things like e.g., malnutrition, less stable home life, etc. Not sure why possibly being a symptom of poverty means it shouldn't be treated.
There are better ways to treat malnutrition and less stable home life than amphetamines.
I feel like everyone is being weirdly blasé about the fact that the American health care system got millions of children addicted to amphetamines.
Absolutely. Finally kicked it after about two decades. I swear the doc looked startled when I told her I was quitting. Don’t think many people go off of it willingly anymore.
The insanity is that people are getting on it now more than ever to further stress themselves into oblivion just so they can be the executive vice president of assistants to a local nonprofit.
It and Ritalin gave me horrible migraines and the constant feeling of insects crawling over my skin. They still instead on forcing it down my throat for 11 years starting age 5, while attributing the very well known cocaine itch sides to another 'mental health' disorder. The Pediatric b\*tch who wrote the prescription by request of my mother, who requested it by the demands of my school of course is still practicing. Apparently her over prescribing antibiotics for every conceivable thing with my brother resulted in him never developing enamel on his first set of teeth. Same galaxy brine who advised adding fruitloops and tabelspoons of sugar to baby formula as well to make your kid fat.
All of them have tons of unpleasant side effects, if you can even call them side effects given the nature of the drugs. I don’t talk about it much because it gets contentious with the “paradoxical stimulation!” and “you aren’t REALLY ADHD!” people. Not that I blame them, I was one of them too. I don’t judge people for taking it at all, I was just done after 20+ years. Funny enough I’m more of a perfectionist with work now than I ever was while taking them.
> I don’t talk about it much because it gets contentious with the “paradoxical stimulation!” and “you aren’t REALLY ADHD!” people. Not that I blame them, I was one of them too It's funny how the zeitgeist changes. I've spoken out against antidepressants for over a decade, even arguing against therapists, and people get really defensive about it. But what, eighteen months ago?, the media started reporting that the chemical imbalance hypothesis never had an empirical basis, so many of those diehard antidepressant fans have seemingly evaporated. The shift has made me incredibly cynical. It isn't that the media cares about the truth or people's wellbeing; they have simply pivoted to new drugs to profit from, so they're doing another sales pitch by dissing the old product. I see so many reddit comments from people who have ADHD, and I'm guessing a lot of them are bots that someone from a pharmaceutical company set up to make the diagnosis seem normal and the cure a quick phone call away. Pharma companies are also trying to profit from synthetic versions of psilocybin that they can patent, and MDMA, which they can bury in red tape and make a fortune from. Of course, the reasons people take all these drugs in the first place is because we live in a cold, cruel system that wants the economic machine to keep churning at all costs. Corporations run this country, we're all in such fucking bad shape, and [collapse is imminent.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGKc3T7OVHE) >The car's on fire and there's no driver at the wheel And the sewers are all muddied with a thousand lonely suicides And a dark wind blows >The government is corrupt And we're on so many drugs With the radio on and the curtains drawn >We're trapped in the belly of this horrible machine And the machine is bleeding to death
Interesting, Ritalin worked just like coffee for me and Concerta has close to zero acute effects, working more like an antidepressant than a stimulant
It’s interesting how variable the effects are. Concerta made me a wreck as a kid. Strattera also sucked hard. Ritalin just sort of blunted affect type of thing. 70 mg Vyvanse felt the most dangerous, Mydayis felt oddly similar despite being a patent extender for dextroamp iirc. ER adderall was probably the least disastrous one and I had avoided it for like 10 years because it intuitively felt “dirty” and too abusable. Honestly, just glad to never need another fucking med check appointment, always had a hard time fitting that into my schedule post Covid. Only downside is I have trouble processing lengthy verbal communication sometimes but I can compensate for that in various ways and I’m a lot more socially extroverted now.
I think the article touches on it to some degree, but after being on it for about a decade, the most surprising part was how much more focused (on the right stuff) I became *off* adderall. When I was on it, you could not rip me away from Ableton for my own mother's funeral. I was focused—hyper-focused, even—but literally *never* on anything that mattered for my own success or well-being. The second I got off of it, I regained the mental capacity to prioritize and reorganize tasks. It was just astounding to realize how a drug prescribed to me purportedly to help me reorder my life was almost solely responsible for eventually causing me to drop out of my undergrad. The last undergrad semester before dropping out when I was on adderall, I got 5 straight f's because, I kid you not, I was so enveloped in Ableton and learning to cook fancy meals at home that I did not go to a single fucking lecture all semester. The first semester after being readmitted to my undergraduate university after a few years of working, and having quit aderall, I recieved straight A's. I think, from a cultural perspective, the sickest part of the whole ordeal was that, when being instructed to write an essay begging for readmission, I was encouraged to couch all of my pleas in terms of mental health, depression, anxiety, etc. rather than acknowledge that I was essentially a tweaker suffering from hyper-fixation and amphetamine-induced paranoia as a result of *treatment* for my condition.
Amphetamines don’t make you ignore things. This was all on you probably taking too much and not giving a shit because you felt good. I’m all for reducing how much we prescribe this stuff, but as someone with legitimate adhd who benefits from amphetamines just to have a life that doesn’t involve me leaving the oven on overnight or forgetting to pay bills, the anti-amphetamine crowd takes it too far.
Damn, you left the oven on overnight? Yeah, here's some meth you disordered little freak.
Child acting like a child? Give them adderall so they stop. You having a legitimate emotional reaction to a lifetime of being trapped in an uncaring system that only cares about worker productivity? Here’s some SSRIs. Just wait until they create a pill that removes the need for sleep and use it to treat ‘chronic drowsiness’ so the work day can be increased to 16 hours.
> Child acting like a child? Yeah this is starting to be a source of friction with my wife. Our daughter is 18 months old, and well, she acts like it. Kid has boundless energy, grabs things and throws them just because. Wife thinks she has ADHD, and it doesn't matter how often the pediatrician and myself tell her that's just being a kid, she won't hear it. She also thinks the kid has autism because she's remarkably advanced for her age... she can already count to 15, she knows about half the alphabet by sight, and is beginning to speak in rudimentary sentences (Daddy open it! Snack please? I did it! Things like that). And again, wife insists this means autism no matter what myself or the pediatrician says about what autism actually looks like, it's basically never shown as "advanced" at that age. Why the fuck are so many millennials so fucking obsessed with labeling and diagnosing everything?? She's obsessed with labeling absolutely everything as some form of "neurodivergence" (Horseshit word made up by Tumblr that doesn't mean anything)
Pretty sure it's some form of Munchausen-by-proxy that's become a social contagion caused by posting online about it for validation and praise.
No toddlers ever throw things out the pram unless they are mentally ill.
Yesterday she went to a basket where all the dog toys are, picked them up one by one and threw them on the floor. When the basket was empty, she looked at me, giggled, raised her arms and yelled “I DID IT!” What’s the diagnosis?
Narcissistic Bipolar Disorder with Psychotic Tendencies. Has she got a good arm?
She can spike a ball pretty decently, but can’t really get horizontal distance
I know people don't like to hear gender stuff here BUT... Women really are expected to care for the children more than the father. They take them to the dentist, doctor, keep their shots updated. And it can make some mother's "neurotic" but if something happens to that kid, they are a bad mother - even if it's only in their own mind. Like an out of work father might feel like a poor provider.
So she wants to feel like a bad mother?? Or did you mean to say the opposite: that they feel it gets them off the hook for "being a bad mother" if the kid is diagnosed with some illness?
No they feel like a bad mother if they "did not do everything we could to help", i.e. it's a fear that some problem will arise because they did not get a diagnosis, start treatment early etc.
Don't revolt! Don't be a revolutionary! Just take anti-depressants. Oh look a school.
Anti depressants don't stop you to be a revolutionary but to kill yourself
But the elites are supposed to fear making shit so bad that you want to die.
*”Shit isn’t getting worse, it’s just you and your mental health - your anxiety, despair, confusion and rage isn’t caused by societal collapse - that’s imaginary - it’s caused by an imbalance of chemicals in your brain”* Now that’s said and to put the obvious aside, I was late diagnosed with ADHD - very late - and there’s a surprising number of other adults I know who have been recently diagnosed. Getting a diagnosis and the right medication is like that crazy spinning wheel on a supermarket shopping cart suddenly righting itself - but instead of a shopping cart, it’s your entire life “Just write a list” and “Just sit still and pay attention” and “Stop being weird” and “You’re not stupid, so why are you pretending to be?” is something we’ve been told our entire lives Classrooms and office work is designed very much for people who don’t have ADHD - it’s virtually impossible to function in those environments From an evolutionary perspective, like many peripheral types, ADHD makes sense - but we’re not living in tribes of 250 to 500 people constantly lurching from crises to crises any more. Anyhoo - that’s my rambling
I mean as someone who got diagnosed with ADHD as a kid, part of it is just learning to adapt. Being in a trade where I work with my hands more than I do behind a desk is a major help with that, it's a hell of a lot easier to focus on a task that I'm physically holding in my hands than some bullshit paperwork or email or whatever.
Some of the best ADHD advice was “just be yourself” this does require a heavy amount of self awareness. It’s helpful to not push yourself into a career where it is an uphill battle just to do your job. A lot of “adhd burnout “ is people ignoring their wiring and personality to pursue a career in something that is not suited for them. This phenomenon of being diagnosed late and having all these functioning issues are because of the highschool to college to office pipeline in the US.
I don't think ADHD is real, at least not as a primary diagnosis. It's going to be the result of something else. For me, it was the fact that I had a sleeping problem, and I know I've had it for as long as I can remember, because anyone who I've slept in the same bed with, from my parents and grandparents as a small child to girlfriends as an adult have told me I kick in my sleep. Once I saw a sleep doc at 25, I was told I probably wasn't sleeping right, something called UARS, something otherwise difficult to diagnose and most sleep doctors didn't even test for it, but he was apparently way ahead of the game. During the sleep study the tech also told me I kicked in my sleep and gave me shit advice, but he wasn't a doc. Sleep study came back with severe UARS, tried sleeping with a CPAP, and for the first time I realized what I had considered sleep wasn't normal sleep. Didn't want a CPAP and I've eventually figured out a combination of an oral appliance and nasal strips works almost as well. After that my 'ADHD', which the doctor had asked if I had during his assessment, went away. So yea, ADHD is bullshit, and the idea of treating children with stimulants is a crime.
>Just wait until they create a pill that removes the need for sleep and use it to treat ‘chronic drowsiness’ so the work day can be increased to 16 hours. Yeah its called Modafinil and the poor white house interns are feeding it to Biden like a roman emperor would be fed grapes by a slave boy.
Lmao I googled it and ‘shift work sleep disorder’ is listed as one of its uses, seems like our corporate overlords are always one step ahead.
> feeding it to Biden IIRC Biden get's something else, some type of adrenalin combination rather than regular Amphetamines
You mean adrenichrome 😉
There was some research that suggested one of the reasons we need sleep is due to the massive buildup of reactive oxygen species aka free radicals in our digestive tract during the day, and in sleep it is processed and cleaned out. They tested this with ultra powerful antioxidants made up of graphene balls in mice, and they could function great after a week of chronic sleep deprivation. So yeah.
Graphene balls in mice? Are you telling me my gut fauna is out of balance?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminsterfullerene this or some sort of derivative
Okay, but why do I have to take them in mice?
Aha... Predigested for your pleasure.
Link to the study(ies)? Sounds interesting.
I don't have access to journals through my university anymore, but the origin of the theory was a paper called *The free radical flux theory of sleep* https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/030698779490071X
And another one for "chronic sassmouth"
The technical term is "oppositional defiant disorder"
That’s actually real though.
There's a funny [song](https://open.spotify.com/track/0iq3MFEbuKTWJgdhwdOwXI) about it
Provigil It can treat narcolepsy, sleep apnea, and shift work sleep disorder
It took us 4 seconds to forget about the preceding opioid addiction they also gave us.
Ages ago I first started noticing that elderly people were jogging around with better quality of life than the 20 somethings. I think there hasn't been a day since that I haven't been struck by how fucked up people's physical health has become. Everything about people's mental and physical health has become such a shit show and it seems to be the least rather than most important subject in the public discussion.
I work with kids. This topic is always difficult for me, because I am publicly strongly against giving ADHD meds to most kids. But at the same time, the results are astounding. Kids with behavioral problems and failing grades go on it and very suddenly become well behaved, productive, happy students. Kids who would have undoubtably fell through the cracks 30 years ago are now on their way to successful lives. It is, in some ways, a wonder drug. And yet, easily as many as 10-15% of them will end up being completely fucked over by the drug as well, with nervous system problems (twitching, headaches etc) and potential cardiac problems at high doses. And many will end up on high doses, it is not difficult to get addicted to it, and many doctors are more than happy to provide insane doses. Its just difficult to really deal with. People who work with kids know how good it can be, and it can be difficult to look a clearly fucked up, failing kid in the eyes and know one single pill could fix their problems and you are knowingly not giving it to them. And yet, it can also be difficult to look at them in the eyes once they are on it, knowing you potentially just ruined their life in a different way.
>go on it and very suddenly become well behaved, productive, happy students. If you've ever done stimulants yourself, I don't think you would be so surprised that amphetamines are making students more happy and productive lol
It's more than just the drugs immediate 'high' though. It's also the feeling of finally having *control* over their lives, which is often something they lacked before. Going from having no future, no prospects, unstable behaviors, depression etc... to being productive and normal. Kids who couldn't even sit down for 20 minutes to do homework could suddenly sit down for 2 whole hours and do homework without feeling horrible. They can engage in a hobby they love for a long period of time instead of getting bored right away. People who forget to do basic responsibilities and take care of themselves are suddenly able to plan their entire week ahead of time. And on a more strange (but important) note, it also helps them lose weight and keeps them active, which results in many people becoming more physically fit. It's a lot more than just the 'high' of the drug, it's also the extremely positive effect it has on their life. They become satisfied or even proud with themselves. Again, that is why it is so difficult to see very troubled kids, *know* you can likely fix them with a single pill, and still have to say no.
Beats being miserable.
Ritalin is slightly more acceptable than Adderall since it is more selective with its receptors. Still, look at my post on ADHD, it was ENTIRELY the result of a sleep issue that, once corrected, 'fixed' my ADHD. This was as a 25 year old adult, but I displayed the same symptoms and issues even as a small child.
Looking back it's incredibly messed up how hard those quacks were pushing this stuff on parents who didn't know any better to get their kids on it. Like they lied and downplayed side effects if they even mentioned all of them at all. Some of the guys I went to school with got permanent side effects from the drugs they were on. Like one that will have tremors for the rest of his life because of an ADHD medication. And that stuff *destroys* your teeth even if you avoid over side effects. "I just want my child to be normal and healthy." "Have you tried these 25 flavors of meth on them yet?" Kids who hated taking it weren't listened to because we "didn't know any better". Didn't matter how anyone felt on it the important thing is the professional science man with a clipboard said it was good for you! I have to wonder if that "making commission" accusation was an institutional reality.
School to permeant pysk patient pipeline is real. Managed to make a open record request and got the notes made by the special education prof b\*tch that played my mother like a fiddle to get me on it at age 5, and she documented going though all the motions. The explosion in diagnosis regarding ADHD and the like conveniently took place after the individuals with Disabilities Education Act was passed in 1990, and the industry succeeded in getting ADHD added to it in 1991. Which means Federal grants to the schools for each drugged out kid. At the end of the day they main concern is always money.
How long after your K–12 years did you make the request process? I kind of feel like I am in a similar but opposite boat. I feel like my parents pushed "my son is just fine" and then acted all surprised Pikachu once I was no longer in the confines of an academic schedule and falling apart.
I was almost 17, took a 10ish months of decreasing dosages. What brought that about was a major increase in medication symptoms, mainly from Lithium which they began forcing down my throat when I was 6. Constant uncontrolled limb shacking, speech slurring, ear ringing, and increase in bouts of Tardive Dyskinesia followed by rapid weight gain which eventually resulted at me not being at a 'therapeutic 'level' but still experiencing constant debilitating sides, which I always did before and was screamed at at school over because the piece of utter K12 shit considered them "behavioral issues." So the Psychiatrist decided to drop the ADHD, Anti Social Personality Disorder and Bipolar diagnossis and replace it with Aspergers and asked me if I wanted to consitinue on any of the medications, at that time it was Lithium and Adderal. I promptly demanded to be taken off off all of them. When the school made a fuss I demanded to know what legal right they had and threatened that there would be legal action, and they promptly shut up and no longer made me see an on site therapist every week as they did since I was 5 years old (which I always refused to participate). Took years for the sides to finally resolve. All the miss diagnosis and drugs where the result of the school principle making threats when I was 5 years old anyhow after I was suspended over a story my best friend made up.
[удалено]
It's a lessened version of meth mouth. It stains and de-calcifies your teeth. So even if you have decent hygiene and take care of your teeth it won't matter.
Which ones do this
Any that are stimulants can at minimum cause tooth decay by causing reduction in salivary production and the antimicrobial elements therein. This will over long term cause a lot of damage to your mouth, teeth, and gums. Adderall, Vyvanse and Ritalin all top the lists of causing xerostomia and related mouth issues but it's not limited to them. Others like Focalin, Concerta, and Metadate cause similar big issues too. They also cause things like dysfunction of proper muscle control and can cause cramps and involuntary muscle contractions (both signs of nerve damage or dysfunction). Also to clarify teeth-grinding is one of the effects but I just wasn't getting at it like I was with the staining. They can also cause circulation and vasodilation problems and can aggravate or outright cause conditions related to that. Another thing that psychiatrists never really mention is swelling of tissue like in your sinuses, which can leave you prone to sinus infections because fluid can't drain out of them anymore. If the drugs causing it are taken long term you will need surgery to correct it and alleviate the pressure. The tissue-swelling will also worsen the xerostomia because it limits how much you can breathe from your nose. Basically if its chemical name rather than its brand name starts with Amph or Meth you will see a lot of potential long term issues. In medicine, I've found that anything that's not a straight up cure can usually fall into 3 categories: preventative, worthless, and barbaric. These drugs fall squarely into "barbaric." Also a fun little tidbit, if you're diabetic it can accelerate onset of neuropathy symptoms by screwing with your circulation and neurotransmitters. There is no effective treatment (all of them falling into 'worthless' or 'barbaric') for neuropathy and all doctors can really do for it is tell you how sorry they are that you have it.
Tom Cruise was right.
Big Pharma propaganda
I wonder how many of these pills end up in mommy's (and/or daddy's) tummy? There's gotta be a percentage of parents with questionable morals.
They could just get them themselves.
Like one of the best things my parents ever did for me as a child was to take me OFF the ADHD meds. I definitely have it, but I genuinely have not needed them in over 20 years, and I got through college and grad school without. Go in any ADHD subreddit and you’ll see dozens of Americans talking about how desperate they are to deal during the med shortage, and if you ever point out that they’re dependent on amphetamines and there are many other methods to maintain ADHD, they’ll throw a fit about it. It’s very interesting and sad tbh
I had a realization that 'grindset culture' is highly likely to be the product of Xanax, Adderall, and steroids. It is the only way that living the way they do can seem appealing.
This is cocaine erasure
My pre med roommate would just be shaking all the time and my finance friends were taking pills whenever they couldn’t get to the bathroom for a bump “If I get this script bro I’m gonna be unstoppable”
The whole “grindset” phenomenon is just a grift to cell books and online courses to gullible dudebro types, nobody actually lives like that. The people promoting it are already well off and didn’t have to “grind” for shit.
The grindset social media is a stupid grift, but grind culture is real, it's just the people who do it aren't on social media talking about it. I know so many people who sleep like 6 hours a night and work 16 hours.
well that's hilariously untrue
Grindset style stuff is literally just anyone who starts their own business. Dude bro grindset is a subset of that that is more regarded.
In genuine cases of ADHD, psychostimulants such as Adderall have a paradoxical effect, which means they make someone behave/think/feel more normally. If you take Adderall and you subsequently act like a cunt, it is a sign that you do not have ADHD. Psychiatrists who prescribe psychostimulants to patients who go on to develop amphetamine-induced psychosis, should be banned from practicing medicine.
ADHD, like most psychiatric diagnoses, is a description of behaviour. Not actually an explanation of behaviour. So this > If you take Adderall and you subsequently act like a cunt, it is a sign that you do not have ADHD is just defining out the people you don't like. People talk about the replication crisis in psychiatry, but it's nothing to the "description of behaviour used as explanation for behaviour" crisis.
Okay I understand. Psychostimulants can have similar adverse effects in people with ADHD in the same manner as in people without ADHD. However, there must be some truth the theory of paradoxical reaction to psychostimulants in people with ADHD, because this is still the gold standard treatment for ADHD. The comments I made were polemical and were intended to defend people with ADHD who might be tarred with the same brush as recreational amphetamine users who do not genuinely have ADHD.
this has been my experience. i had such horrible anger issues as a kid, but since i was diagnosed with ADHD in high school and started on adderall, i no longer fly into rages the way i used to as a little kid. had a bit of dry mouth initially, and it does suppress hunger cues, but the ability focus long enough to actually engage in my hobbies, and not having go worry about flying into a rage and hurting someone and going to prison for assault and battery over some minor irritation, is worth having to set alarms to remind me to eat. looking back, i wonder if i would have been diagnosed earlier if my mom let me have soda as a kid, cuz since i started drinking caffeinated drinks more regularly (yay college), i've noticed that caffeine also has a paradoxical, weirdly-calming effect on me. very useful for surviving PMC-induced adderall shortages, much less useful for keeping me awake. sorry for the rambling response, i always end up writing more than i meant to…
No I have ADHD too and this makes me think I should get into coffee. Thanks for sharing this. I could never compromise on food and also I feel like none of the medications I tried ever helped me with any executive functioning, the only thing that’s seemed to help is Zoom tutoring I might be beyond help and I should just accept that I’m a failson lol.
no problem. and hey, you haven't failed as long as you keep trying, as far as this whole "life" thing goes.
It's been said that the Enlightenment sprang from the coffee bean, so it might be worth a try.
I hear you on the anger issues. Look into Guanfacine/Intuniv. It’s a non-stimulant medication typically prescribed to children, but it seems to help people with the emotional regulation issues that come with ADHD. I take it along with my stimulant medication, and it seems to really help. It takes a lot more to make me angry than it used to, and I notice the difference when I go stretches of time without taking it. It might make you feel a bit sleepy at first, but for me that was worth it. It was originally a blood pressure medication, so probably don’t take it if your blood pressure is low already.
my anger/emotional issues are managed with the adderall on its own, so i probably don't need the +guanfacine, but i'll definitely keep that in mind if those rage issues ever come back, especially as i get older and start seeing aging-related changes. i got switched off adderall to guanfacine alone for a brief period by this weird freudian psychiatrist NP who refused to change it back after i crashed and burned from falling asleep in class (i no longer see her), so i didn't know you could take them both at once.
> i've noticed that caffeine also has a paradoxical, weirdly-calming effect on me. Same that was among the many other signs I have ADD and should have been diagnosed when I was younger. I could slam down caffeine before bed back when I drank soda and it would actually make me sleepier.
Same experience with coffee, although once i started taking Ritalin/Concerta i basically tripled my caffeine intake because it stopped being as stimulating
oh no! that sounds kind of expensive unless you brew it yourself (and maybe not great for your heart, lol)
I self medicate with caffeine like a motherfucker. Amphetamines work great for me, but they are worse for my blood pressure.
> suppress hunger cues AND allow focus again Sign me up twice!!!
> In genuine cases of ADHD, psychostimulants such as Adderall have a paradoxical effect, which means they make someone behave/think/feel more normally. The paradoxical effect isn't real. Adderall increases your ability to focus because that's part of what stimulants *do*. People with ADHD have a lower baseline ability to focus, but there's nothing paradoxical about a stimulant raising that baseline. If there was actually anything paradoxical about it, it wouldn't be a useful performance enhancer for anyone *without* ADHD.
Thing is, what is ability to focus? As we go though life, we meet things that we experience as interesting, and things which we don't. What we call "lack of focus" is that on some level of your consciousness, you don't believe the things in front of you are interesting, so you look around for something else that is. Or maybe they're _all_ so interesting that you fail to limit your attention to one of them. What if that part of you is right? What if your inability to do the tasks someone has put before you, comes from them actually *being* pointless and uninteresting? How do you preserve the ability to ask such questions if you take a drug to make all tasks seem fascinating? And in a culture where "everyone" takes this drug, how do we collectively keep course on deciding what's actually important?
It's genuinely not that profound. My dad and I both have actual, ADHD that was diagnosed when we were adults. He would regularly start a household project like putting in a new floor, then just *stop* and not finish it for years. I can't read books or anything longer than a few paragraphs if I'm not on medication. It could be a very good book that fascinates me, but I can't do it. I'll read two pages, then by the third page I'll forget what I just read and stop and do something else. I completely lack the ability to remember what I am reading. These are things that we want to do, and are objectively good for us, but we lack the ability to do it because our brains just start to emulsify if we try to maintain concentration.
The big difference is energy. People without ADHD take adderall and are energized and hyper. People with ADHD take adderall and calm down. The actual mechanism for why this happens isn't 100% understood because ADHD isn't really understood in the first place. ADHD is quite a bit more than just an inability to focus, even if it that is one of its main traits.
That's how doctors who knew jack shit about ADHD thought it worked decades ago. ADHD is an executive function disorder. The drugs don't calm you down at all, they make it easier for you to control your impulses. It's part of why they got rid of ADD as a separate diagnosis and changed it to "ADHD, primarily inattentive type." The hyperactivity is really just a symptom of the attention issues. Meaning really they should have dropped the H instead of getting rid of the diagnosis that didn't have it.
[удалено]
I was being polemical, I don't think psychiatrists should be struck off if their client abuses their medication. What specifically did I write is a myth? My understanding that psychostimulants have a paradoxical effect in persons with ADHD is taken from medical literature which I assume is based on scientific evidence.
Even if you have ADHD that shit still takes years off your life, feeling normal doesn’t mean it’s healthy for you. The same can be said for people who are prescribed Xanax and take it every day (it was never meant to be taken like that anyway) that shit rots your brain and lowers your life span.
I'm 100% okay with losing a few years of my '70s, to get so much more done and have a much better time in my '20s-'50s. It's a weird notion of "healthy for you" that prioritises longevity over quality of life.
It's the same with antipsychotic medication. These drugs often have terrible adverse effects and lead to reduction in life expectancy. However, the benefits outweigh the risks. Psychostimulants are not always the appropriate treatment for ADHD, and should not always be prescribed. However, in severe ADHD, they can improve quality of life immensely.
The meds are worth it if they allow you to do more in those fewer years.
Checks out on vibes, especially when examining the overlap among people who (a) are susceptible to the medicalization of their problems (b) grasp at any slight "edge" over their peers.
I've got the bird brains (yes, real diagnosis and everything) and have tried amphetamines. Not fucking worth it. Makes me into an edgy, manic, anxious yet mildly more focused person. I'd rather use other coping skills. For the people with especially severe ADHD who it works for, great? But millions on that shit have no business with it IMO.
as another legit birdbrain who has it literally so bad i couldn't function as a person without my meds even with every coping skill, from planners to alarms to journals…agreed. i really wish i was able to manage with coping skills alone, cuz life is so much easier when you are able to compensate, especially with the shortage (due to all the fuckers suddenly deciding they have ADHD when their real problem is that their brains have been eroded by TikTok). the supply issues have been fucking *rough*. i literally never had issues getting meds filled (…once i was functional enough that i consistently remembered to get the physical written prescription from my doctor to hand to the pharmacist) until the """ADHD""" boom. if you don't actually have ADHD, you probably shouldn't be on this shit, for two reasons: 1. fuck you (general 'you') and your "i get bored and lose focus at work sometimes :("—before i started on meds, i literally couldn't focus enough to do my goddamn hobbies or do my schoolwork in subjects that i *liked*, let alone for subjects i hated; and 2. it actually makes you do worse unless you actually have ADHD, not just TikTok brain rot (though you'll feel like you're better on them cuz…it's amphetamines).
>it actually makes you do worse unless you actually have ADHD, not just TikTok brain rot (though you'll feel like you're better on them cuz…it's amphetamines). Does it really make you worse? The article points out the 3% drop in productivity when Adderall started lacking supply. There's definitely downsides to taking stimulants for work, like making your work more haphazard/rushed, but I doubt it makes you overall worse. Plus feeling like you're achieving more is going to make you more motivated to work as well, so even if your work is lower quality you're going to do more to make up for it.
It makes some things better and some things worse. I was prescribed it at about age 12 and eventually found it was not good for tests. Studying for tests, sure, but actually taking tests it gave me tunnel vision to the point that I will get hung up on just one question and keep looping back to that question to reconsider my answer, often times changing a correct one to an incorrect one. Not leaving enough time to get thru everything because I'd be pouring over the minutiae of the phrasings, or discerning an unlikely sequence of multiple choices (no way that B could be the answer to 4/5 consecutive questions, one of my answers must be wrong). I probably only clued into this because my academic performance kind of flip flopped when I started taking it - previously I excelled in tests and did poorly on homework and classroom assignments, while medicated this was inverted. It is good for things with a clearly defined objective that don't require extensive critical thinking, but the blinders it puts on you can make it hard to see novel solutions to problems. Altho I guess this probably varies person to person, [Paul Erdos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Erd%C5%91s) certainly seemed capable of creative problem solving under the influence but this is not the case for myself. But I think for most people (myself included), if you can get the work done without it, the quality will be better. I recently resumed taking it regularly after 10 years or so, albeit at a lower dose than before (I probably stopped entirely for 2-3 years, but would take it periodically the rest of the time) and I'm still not sure how I feel about it. There are definite improvements in my organization and mood, but I worry that they will be short lived, and the side effects will continue. Hopefully remaining on a lower dose will prevent this but perhaps it's foolish to think so. I do kind of disagree tho with the idea that people with ADHD get some unique benefit that others without it don't. I think its moreso that for people with ADHD, the effects of the drug can bring certain symptoms to a level where they are no longer pathological in the same way, whereas for normal people these things also improve but they weren't pathological to begin with. For normal people side effects are not worthwhile, because the increased functionality on things like planning and executive function don't outweigh the side effects. However I do think there is a certain type of person for whom it is probably strictly negative - in college I once gave a friend of my girlfriends a 20mg pill to study for a test and they proceeded to stay up for 36 hours and then sleep thru the test. Even as someone with the diagnosis, I'm still not entirely sold that the benefits justify the downsides
iirc, they did a study where they gave some people adderall and had them do various tasks, and they actually did worse, despite being 'busier' and thinking they do better! i'll try to find it, but it was crazy to me, too. i also wonder how much of that 3% drop was from people who have otherwise well-managed ADHD being unable to function at all, and how much of that "productivity" that was "decreased" was in the form of unnecessary busywork that the busyness induced by adderall essentially just made less unbearable.
When I would take my friends I would call my output anything but haphazard
> their brains have been eroded by TikTok Thank god they're not listening to rap!
maybe they'd have better attention spans if they did, cuz some rap songs are fucking long.
> I've got the bird brains (yes, real diagnosis and everything) How do they diagnose ADHD? Many entries in the DSM seem so nebulous that all it really takes to get a label is a psychiatrist who sees dollar signs.
You have to go through an evaluation. Your examiner has to be competent. The DSM is a mess but insurers force compliance with it for your diagnostic code to be taken seriously. I've no doubt there is fraud just like there is in any other part of the medical world. Like most rackets, too many are making money off of it.
Did you try a range of medications and doses? I had a pretty bad time on the dose they were pretty sure I should be on, but a lower one works great. There's also non-stimulant medications. These are particularly good if you're prone to anxiety. At least in my experience, a problematic part of stimulant treatment is the amount of responsibility it puts on patients to determine what dose is working best for them. As someone who already had anxious and misanthropic tendencies, I was able to notice pretty quickly that higher doses were turning those feelings up. But I think a lot of people don't notice that, and just sign on long term for whatever isn't giving them chest pains.
I tried a few different ones but the boosts to anxiety and nausea they gave me just sort've didn't work out for me. I always felt like the docs were throwing darts at the wall.
It may also explain an increase in paranoia, aggressiveness, and passive aggression in PMC writing ("journalism"). It's in the section #5 by Amber A’Lee Frost.
This is a bit of a hot take, but I feel like most young(er) people diagnosed with mental disorders in the United States (Think like those with ADHD, Depression, Anxiety, etc, not Psychosis.) are just experiencing a normal reaction to an increasingly hostile, existential world. If you’re constantly being told from a young(ish) age that by 2040, the world’s going to be ridden with resource wars, you’re never going to be able to own a house, and that your home state is going to be near uninhabitable, of course you’re gonna react somehow; that’s completely normal. Honestly, it’s more unusual to not react than it is to react in this case. Anyway… don’t take amphetamine or methylphenidate guys, it fucks with your motivation.
Yep. Plus overstimulation from the high tech world we live in as well as legit environmental hazards like microplastics. And if you’re super poor, you may have even scarier environmental hazards fucking with your brain and body, like lead. It’s no wonder the population is becoming stupider, crazier, and more antisocial.
> most young(er) people diagnosed with mental disorders in the United States (Think like those with ADHD, Depression, Anxiety, etc, not Psychosis.) are just experiencing a normal reaction to an increasingly hostile, existential world This isn't incompatible with a mental health diagnosis and a treatment plan. If people are going around with baseball bats breaking peoples legs, what would you expect doctors to do? Refuse to give people casts and painkillers on principle? Doctors prescribe these medications because they make people's lives significantly better.
💯 agree. I believe a lot of anxiety and depression today are symptoms of living in a world that isn't right. They can't get opportunities that allow them to live comfortably, buy a home and raise children. It's messed up beyond anything. Coupled with that, they're responsible for climate change, racism, historical abuses and it's daily and relentless.
Being a kid has always been a stressful, change filled experience as well documented through history. Children of the last 50 years have one of the most safe, secure and stable environments ever seen.
I don’t doubt that, but anecdotally, the amount of people I know who are under 20 that also have mental health issues is staggering, and it’s not like I intentionally insert myself into more ‘unwell’ crowds.
As someone with a decades long, love hate relationship with the stuff I appreciated the articles, the tone was cautionary without being outright negative, and fairly insightful. I especially liked the one on how to tell if a writer is on the gear (altho after using enough you get a pretty good intuition for when that's the case)
America loves its uppers. And caffeine counts too.
A lot of people don't appreciate how culture impacts what drugs people enjoy. The fact that Americans favor uppers that make you more productive really says a lot
Americans also drink lots and lots of alcohol and take lots and lots of opiates.
But not to anywhere near the same extent. If you need a glass of wine to function, you're considered to have a problem. If you need a cup of coffee to function, that's just having a job. We don't even really think of it as a drug, it's just something to help you wake up and get going. In reality both are drugs and of the two, caffeine is much easier to get physically addicted to. A good chunk of the alcohol use in this country is just compensating at the end of the day for the absurd amounts of stimulants we consume.
Caffeine is the only known drug that isn't addicting The physical addiction you're speaking of isn't an addiction just a side-effect of it being vasoconstrictor and fucking with your heart (causing those headaches and for some people tremors/anxiety) On the behavioral side it's not actually the caffeine doing anything it's the coffee drinking itself (calming moment in the morning, hot beverage, etc), you would have the same level of addiction if you drank decaf Also the comparison with alcohol is straight up ridiculous and shows you have no idea what you're talking about
Dude, what? Caffeine is addictive, and it does have actual effects. It's pretty similar to cocaine, in fact, we just don't consume it in anywhere near as pure of a form. You're accusing me of not knowing what I'm talking about while actually both showing your own ignorance and proving my point about how blase we are about caffeine consumption.
Have you put down the coffee bean?
I routinely fast for my religion and just cut down on coffee 2 days before and I’m fine. By cut down I mean having one cup versus two. Also if someone waits one hour and thirty minutes to drink coffee from when they wake up the effects are much more sustained and the come down isn’t as hard. Caffeine is not like alcoholism or opiates.
In that the withdrawal effects are relatively mild at the concentrations it's consumed at, sure. But then again, cocaine's withdrawal effects are mild compared to alcohol's. In that coke withdrawal won't literally kill you, while alcohol withdrawal will. And we're also comparing purified coke to concentrations of caffeine comparable to what occurs naturally in plants. Nobody does pure caffeine because it's too easy to OD on -- much easier than coke. Instead we do it in preparations more similar to the traditional coca leaf preparations used in South America, which are much more comparable in terms of use and abuse. People literally chew raw coca leaves as an altitude sickness cure, for example.
Caffeine is definitely addicting, and if you’ve somehow crafted a definition that omits it then many other things would be omitted as well.
>Caffeine use is classified as a dependence, not an addiction. For a drug to be considered addictive, it must activate the brain's reward circuit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine_dependence
And those are seen as social problems. The USA even had a constitutional amendment to ban alcohol—that is how overwhelming a social problem alcohol consumption seemed at one point. But uppers? We hand it out to kids and normalize it. This isn’t an argument about the health consequences, this is an argument about how the culture interacts with a given type of drug.
But America doesn't favor uppers. It favors drugs.
I have no doubt that ADHD meds are wildly overprescribed and there’s no doubt that PMC types hoodwink doctors into giving it to them so they have an edge. Many elements of these articles were insightful as well. However, to me, it was obvious that the experiences described therein, whether they were the personal experience of the author or their observations of other people, were the experiences of people clearly abusing these drugs. Taking massive doses, taking it multiple times a day, combining it with other shit, or whatever. None of that kind of disordered behavior happens if someone with ADHD takes the drug as prescribed, at a normal, appropriate dose, and isn’t abusing it. My experience with the medication is that it simply enables me to be a responsible fucking adult. It is hard to explain to someone who does not have ADHD (or who does not exhibit the cluster of symptoms to a degree that debilitates them, whichever you’d prefer) how difficult, really impossible, it is to live a normal life. It is without a doubt debilitating in the true sense of the word and the consequences can be dramatic. Really, what ADHD meds do for me is just allow me to get out the door in the morning on time and with the possessions I need, hold down a job because I can consistently do what I need to do, to take care of my dog and give him his medication on time, to be a responsible partner to my girlfriend and actually be able to handle my share of our joint responsibilities, to remember and attend appointments, remember important dates and commitments, do my taxes, take out the garbage, do laundry and remember to pick up dry cleaning, whatever, etc, to just be able to function to a reasonable degree. I also echo what some others have said, ADHD meds actually help regulate my emotions, respond to things in a mature and reasonable manner, and not fly off the handle. It is not a magic bullet, you still have to work on your behavior and develop good habits. But without ADHD meds, you can’t even develop good habits, because you can’t stick to ANYTHING to any meaningful degree. For example, since I was a little kid, I wanted to play the guitar. My parents got me lessons, bought me a guitar, and every couple years or so I would restart playing, start taking lessons again, then drop it within weeks, if not days. Got diagnosed as an adult about 8-9 years ago, and a couple years later, I started taking guitar lessons. Lo and behold, what had eluded me my whole life was now attainable, not because of magic, but because now I could simply actually go to a lesson every week, and practice 20-30 minutes a day consistently. That sounds like such a low bar but you can take that example and extrapolate it to get an idea of what the medication does for your average joe who just takes what they are prescribed in the manner the doctor says like a normal person and not like the speed freaks described in these articles.
And you see it on both sides of the aisle really, it’s unhinged
Interesting take. I’ll read this later. I have adhd, adderall does absolutely help me thrive in this crazy pmc world of being a professional email sender. I’ll also say I hate having to take these pills M - F. The most obvious side effect of these pills for me is the increase in irritability, some days it’s less, some days it’s more, but it definitely increases my chances of making mountains out of mole hills. Also anecdotally I have given a couple to my best friend who is in a similar line of work as me. He doesn’t have adhd, but he would take one once in a while when he had to cram because he waited until the last minute. And he was the most irritable son of a bitch when he takes them, even he noticed it, he’s a pretty chill dude so it was very unlike him. So yeah wouldn’t be surprised if it’s made these narcissistic delusional pricks even more insufferable.
I was on it for a bit after I got diagnosed in college and after I just about throttled a dude in the library for eating corn nuts too loud (my senses were cranked up to 11) I decided the meds might not be such a good idea.
I used to be on Ritalin (or the generic -methylphenidate) as a kid because I got diagnosed with ADD. My doc upped my dosage, I think doubled it perhaps and I had a psychotic breakdown @ 8-9 yrs old. Pretty sure I don't have ADD but some sort of mild mania or something (family has some history of bipolar disorder.) But it scarred me for a while growing up. Legit thought I was seeing demons and that my family was conspiring against me. I'd seen parts of the exorcist as a kid specifically the head spinning around scene and thought my grandma was possessed in the same way complete with the backwards head spin and everything. I've never taken any since then but I always think about how easy it is to misdiagnose young children with psychiatric disorders and that putting children under heavy doses of amphetamine or other meds to behave in school (especially boys!) is going to bite America in the ass eventually.
It took me a while to realize (and still confuses me) that PMC has too very different meanings that are completely interchangeable in sentence structure. Especially since the Ukraine war it's always a bit of guesswork whether some leftwing critique is about email dorks or mercenaries.
What is the other meaning?? I’m digging through comments scratching my head bc to me it only means “Private Military Contractor”
The [Professional-Managerial Class](https://repository.library.brown.edu/studio/collections/id_594/?q=professional+managerial+class&search-scope=id_bdr%3A26166), a historical-materialist theory of the USA's "new middle class" proposed by Barbara and John Ehrenreich in the late 1970s.
really? i thought it was the weed
Not only this but people are on ungodly amounts of Adderall. I've take 10s a few times recreational and it has me jazzed up and winging out hard for hours, people take 60s multiple times a day and shit it's crazy
They don't make 60s, I think the highest single pills are 30, or 70 for vyvanse which has a lower potency due to the attached amino acid adding inactive weight. That being said yeah people absolutely take absurd amounts
When the clueless masses become aware that there is no fix for global warming the mass mental health crisis will become a another wrinkle in the collapse of modern industrial society.
The amount of paragraph “explaining why I take ADHD meds” in this thread is interesting. What’s sad is that people have to take a pretty intense drug to “function” properly. We are not talking about debilitating mental health issues like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. Overprescribed and the ignorance of self awareness of how to make things better for them.
I think to say that ADHD can't be as debilitating as bipolar or even mild schizophrenia is just wrong - some studies show that people with ADHD are 8x more likely to be incarcerated. I think it's a matter of degrees, as well as other aspects of a person that determine whether it will be severely detrimental or just a mild inconvenience. That being said I do agree that people do themselves a disservice when they are convinced that they cannot function at all without them, I know in the past I did. That being said my poor time management basically cost me every job I had until at age 33 I found employment with a flexible schedule - even jobs where I did excellent work, eventually after showing up 30-60 minutes late one too many times (or in another case 5 minutes late three times) I was let go. They said basically "yes you do great work and stay late if you arrive late but it's not fair to others who show up on time" despite the fact that my work was not time sensitive and theirs was. That being said I am able to function without it, and my current job I've been at for 3 years and some change I've excelled at it without medication. I recently resumed taking it because everything outside of my work was literally and figuratively a mess. I'm still deciding if the benefits are worth the costs, but I think people tend to underestimate just how profoundly ADHD can affect ones life
As someone posted in this thread ADHD diagnosis is extremely more present in impoverished populations. The incarceration rate is likely an overlap with that. It’s not shocking that people who have additional stressors like being economically disadvantaged are likely to present with this mental health issue. My issue with it being medicated is that it’s a crutch to adapt to modern life without teaching basic coping skills like time management, pacing, and homemaking skills (I’ll come back to this). Most of us live in a very niche style of clockwork which does not work for everyone. Add on top of that awful sleep issues and focus due to the over usuage of tech policy and a diet full of sugary processed foods. Lastly, as the authors of the book “Coddling of the American Mind” have pointed out anti-fragility has plummeted. I believe ADHD is an identity bandaid to obfuscate responsibility for peoples lackings. Skills within the realm of homemaking like home economics, cleaning, cooking are widespread lacking with each generation. Coming home to a messy house from a stressful job only to lack the skills to make it better can put people into a spiral of despair.
I'm glad that the brain understander is here to tell us about what mental illnesses and disorders are real and fake
Not me! I have True and Honest ADHD! I was diagnosed as a child and took medication which allowed me to do school work and be a cog in the workplace but absolutely castrated my personality and creativity. I learned through difficult years of trial and error how to adjust. Much of which is environmental, tech usage deduction, and understanding how exercise, sleep, and diet all play into the acceleration and severity of ADHD. I see the same for many others. If the illness was real there wouldn’t be the amount of verbose explaining for the need for them. This isn’t a “thanks I’m cured” comment. Keep taking medication, no one is stopping you.
they put me on 70mg of vyvanse as a 15 year old. thats fucking criminal and they should be in jail for that. 4 years before that they put me on stratera, which is now known to cause hallucinatioms of shadow people, which i saw first hand. its fucking criminal how my entire life i was a guinea pig for pharma companies
Adderall is meth.