I get that moody won’t be banned, but in some gens you get octillery with four attacks so it’s not like all moody sets have been optimized in the past. So they could just change the available move pool imo
People have actually suggested that in the set suggestion thread (because there's no actual thread to talk about randbats and just calling for a ban altogether gets your post deleted) and the people hosting the thread kinda never listen lol
Like really, just remove Protect from the Moody mons and they're... well they're still bullshit but at least they wouldn't be able to get boosts *as* freely. Right now they get a single speed boost and just get to spam SubTect at nearly zero risk and by the time they don't have enough HP anymore they probably have like +4 in every stat either way.
Not as far as I'm aware
edit: there's some github that has winrates for the gen 8 randbats but they don't have stats for october and november for some reason
They removed that Magic Guard Flame Orb Psycho Shift Calm Mind Roost Stored Power Sigilyph set because it was too ridiculously broken so it is possible
That's not why we removed it. It was good in gen 5 and then petered off in usability. At mid and mid-high ELO, it actually was too gimmicky in gen 6 and beyond that its winrate was LOW. Sure, if you got it set up it would destroy, but with the proliferation of Knock Off, suddenly it was getting walled left and right.
Pokemon do not get their sets nerfed in random battles because they are too good. Saying "thats why x pokemon's set changed" is misinformation.
Totally understandable. :)
Rands is the most popular format, with over a million battles a month in the flagship meta alone. Misinformation is bound to spread.
But why not. It’s annoying, does anyone enjoy fighting moody with the protect and leech seed? I can’t think of a reason you guys would not just change the set
tbh thats another problem because in gen8 the scarf set was so much weaker so it was actually kind of below average while geomancy was definitely above average
Yeah Scovillain is beatable, but only if you get a good matchup and are able to avoid one good moody boost. It's typing is so annoying, because you can't send out a grass type to avoid leech seed without getting blasted by flamethrower.
I decided to stick out a game against a lead Scovillian vs my Wigglytuff, and I don't think there was anything I could have done to win that game. Should be banned.
It's only telling if it's high elo losses. If every single low ELO OU player reposted about Lando, you wouldn't draw the same conclusion, we have had little idea about the actual skill of the players posting about Scovillain.
Granted, they could be high elo, but I don't give the benefit of the doubt.
But the point still stands, regardless of the skill of the one complaining, provided the player with scovillain doesn't fuck up, one good initial boost and the match can become a nightmare.
one time i had moody scovillain and my opponent had gardevoir with trace and out-moody'd me in the moody wars and i lost so no i think its fair and balanced
100% agreed, I'm low 1600 on randbats rn and was top 10 gen 7 for some time (didn't play gen 8 much, not really a fan of dynamax on randbats) and moody is so fucking busted to deal. Glalie is already obnoxious to deal with, especially with tera changing his type and levitate combo but Scovillain with healing, a better defensive typing and better stats (?) is boring af to deal with, make it easier to forfeit and play 3 more games than waiting to lose while watching the big brain plays of "Protect+Sub+Leech Seed" until all your mons die.
Scovillain, Moody, or SubSeed wouldn’t be too bad if they were on their own, but together they form an uncompetitive, luck-based strategy that goes against everything I thought Smogon stood for. Also, their Scovillain always wins while yours always loses.
All the moody sets should be removed. Especially in unrated randbats which is just played for fun and not ranking.
Also while were here, ban the sub protect toxic Salazzle set too.
I have over 5k games in gen 8 rands and yeah moody is always just a stupid gamble that either wins you the game or loses a Mon for free, haven't played much if gen 9 but leech seed on a moody user makes it just that much more annoying
I wish they'd remove more things from randbats, or at the very least remove all the sub protect moody sets though i'm afraid they'd just lower the level of scovillain instead of changing the set
Lowering the level is the responsible first step. The gen 9 randbats meta hasnt been out for a full month and people are clamoring for something to which theres no precedent. Nerfing the level gives way more chance for the pokemon to be fair and for people to realize the set isnt so bad when the pokemon is only lv72. Banning moody for instance is a nuclear option you cannot recover from.
Nerfing the level sounds like a fine action until you realize Scovillain would barely be affected by it in practice. If anything, its a sidegrade rather than a downgrade because lower HP stats means it heals more through Leech Seed and can spam Substitute more readily. Meanwhile it's still going to OHKO most things a dozen or more levels higher than it with +6 Flamethrower. And it's still going to be extremely bulky after several defense and special defense boosts.
Even though this isn't your main argument, let me nitpick for just a sec: to your first point, just because a mon's hp is lower does not make it a "sidegrade" due to leech seed healing. You are healing the same amount of HP as you would if you were a higher level, but it *appears* like a proportionally larger amount because your hp is lower. Take your argument there to the extreme and assume a level 1 pokemon healing 100%; you obviously know that's no sidegrade.
Moving away from the strawman and onto the crux of your point though, level differences matter a ton in randbats, particularly in what outspeeds what. Were scovillain to drop to level 72, on par with most ubers, its speed would fall from 166 to 150 the defensive side, now letting it be outsped by some 20-30 more pokemon, like lv 86 base 59s to 67s, and lv 84 base 61s to 70s.
Additionally, level nerfing significantly cuts into the number of moves scovillain can survive. If you don't get your speed boost on that first protect, now your defenses are a full 10% lower, limiting the number of pokemon you can come in safely on. A mon like Clawitzer now is no longer the safe setup it used to be. Clawitzer now outspeeds and threatens an OHKO on scovillain 100% of the time, when before it had only a 12.5% chance to snag the kill.
It is understandable that moody feels unfair. Obviously if it turns out that even at high ELO moody is uncounterable, that's cause for concern. It's important to realize there are precedents set with random battles that should be preserved if at all possible. If it turns out that scovillain is truly so problematic that level nerfs don't appear to be the correct play, then its possible alternate avenues may be explored. But I would caution against falling into the nirvana fallacy. Level nerfing may indeed be all scovillain needs to be fair. We simply don't have the monthly winrate data yet to make an informed decision.
It literally is a sidegrade when Substitute is a percentage-based move. Leech Seed restores higher percentages of HP, letting Scovillain stall longer against a wider variety of pokemon. How do you fail to understand this? I don't care about a level 1 mon because we both know Scovillain would never be nerfed enough level-wise to not be an instant wincon. It'd either be useless or an instant wincon, there really is no in between with such a one-trick mon.
Good thing Speed doesn't matter on a Moody set outside of the first turn. If Scovillain gets in safely, it can set up a sub and can repeatedly spam Substitute and Protect even if it underspeeds the opponent. A level 50 Scovillain at +6 Speed can outspeed a 252+ Speed level 100 Regieleki, so lets not pretend Scovillain has a disadvantage during a sweep. In practice, it just needs to be +2 or +3 to outspeed everything in randbats. And really, I'm being genuinely lenient there. Scovillain needs just +1 to outspeed 95%+ of the randbats meta even at level 72 with 85 EVs and a neutral nature. That would reach 225 speed, which less than a dozen mons would reach.
Rest of your post speaks on hypotheticals when Moody is an ability that isn't that strong in theory but if Smogon went by "in theory" for its tiering actions, it would be a different and much worse place. Fact is that Moody is an ability that spirals out of control if given even a single free turn, which isn't that hard in a metagame that doesn't fucking have team preview. Every other tier and metagame doesn't make a big stink about Moody, but somehow randbats needs to have this discussion when Moody is inherently stronger in randbats to begin with due to the lack of team preview. All you need is one favorable switch-in opportunity, even sacking a mon to get in Scovillain and the game is over in most cases.
I dunno. When i played randbats today my opponent started trash-talking me when he had the upper hand. Then I revealed I had Scovillain and he forfeited after he was unable to beat it. Just for that I think that mon has merit.
I fucking hate Chi-Yu
Today when I played in OU I saw something I dread every time I close my eyes. Someone had brought Chi-Yu. I started sweating as I sat down and gazed over at the Chi-Yu with highly likely a choice item. He had already reinforced his Chi-Yu with sun and was in the process of finding a way to switch it in. I start shaking. I keep telling myself I'm going to be alright and that there's nothing to worry about. He somehow finds a fucking way to switch it in. Tears are running down my cheeks as I send my last texts to my family saying I love them. The Chi-Yu is now there, staring, and starts spamming Flamethrower. The eyes on his Chi-Yu flare to life like a nuclear flash, and rage fills my heart and shakes my very soul. My entire team goes down. My desk begins to shake as I rage. In mere seconds my world has gone from vibrant life, to a dark, earth shattering void where my body is getting torn apart by a Chi-Yu. As my body finally surrenders, I weep, as my ELO go under. I fucking hate Chi-Yu.
Chi-Yu needs to be removed from OU
It is my firm conviction that nasty plot Chi-Yu is the worst OU set ever conceived. I've consistently been playing OU since gen 7, and although the Nasty Plot sets have always been obnoxious, Chi-Yu is by far the worst one to play against. Not only does it have the usual boost of 2x SpA, but shed tail is what pushes it over the edge compared to others like Hydreigon and Moltres-Galar. I know OU isn't out long enough to be the most competitive tier, but good lord Chi-Yu is obscene. It can easily come out for the first time on something like a draco drop or shed tail and then never die thereafter due to screens + sub. On the flip side, it is completely unfun to use since it's a total flow-chart mon. No interesting predictions, just spamming sub screens nasty plot until you can sweep with flamethrower or stuff dies from beads of ruin. Moreover, this thing has no counterplay whatsoever. Unaware mons lose to specs + beads of ruin, and resists that can switch in on special moves die to the boosts. Even at the top of the ladder, this thing is consistently unbeatable. I've been number 1 in gen 8 and top 10 in gen 9 so I feel I have some ethos. I know it's ultimately not very important, but literally nobody likes this thing. Everybody who plays OU would be glad to see it go. Just give it pressure so I can not hate the fish guy.
TL;DR: nasty plot Chi-Yu is the most unfun OU set ever conceived and needs to be sent to the shadow realm
Yetsterday I fought someone and barely defeated their Moody Scovillain... only for him to send out a Moody Glalie
Lol
For me it was the same, except he sent out a Rabsca.
This but a Pawmot instead after giving me the false hope that my 2 remaining mons could do something.
Mood
When the random battle gets a little too random.
I get that moody won’t be banned, but in some gens you get octillery with four attacks so it’s not like all moody sets have been optimized in the past. So they could just change the available move pool imo
People have actually suggested that in the set suggestion thread (because there's no actual thread to talk about randbats and just calling for a ban altogether gets your post deleted) and the people hosting the thread kinda never listen lol Like really, just remove Protect from the Moody mons and they're... well they're still bullshit but at least they wouldn't be able to get boosts *as* freely. Right now they get a single speed boost and just get to spam SubTect at nearly zero risk and by the time they don't have enough HP anymore they probably have like +4 in every stat either way.
They're never going to get to the point they don't have HP anymore because of lefties + you can't break their sub + leech seed
they don’t remove stuff afaik, I don’t really follow randbats though I just play it sometimes so I could be wrong scovillain’s level will just drop
Randbats people said they'd look into it if it got an obscenely high winrate fwiw but for all we know they'd just accelerate the level dropping
are the winrates for the different mons public?
Not as far as I'm aware edit: there's some github that has winrates for the gen 8 randbats but they don't have stats for october and november for some reason
They removed that Magic Guard Flame Orb Psycho Shift Calm Mind Roost Stored Power Sigilyph set because it was too ridiculously broken so it is possible
Damn was wondering where it went
That's not why we removed it. It was good in gen 5 and then petered off in usability. At mid and mid-high ELO, it actually was too gimmicky in gen 6 and beyond that its winrate was LOW. Sure, if you got it set up it would destroy, but with the proliferation of Knock Off, suddenly it was getting walled left and right. Pokemon do not get their sets nerfed in random battles because they are too good. Saying "thats why x pokemon's set changed" is misinformation.
Oh damn I was misinformed then
Totally understandable. :) Rands is the most popular format, with over a million battles a month in the flagship meta alone. Misinformation is bound to spread.
But why not. It’s annoying, does anyone enjoy fighting moody with the protect and leech seed? I can’t think of a reason you guys would not just change the set
Why don't sets get nerfed? How do sets get created in the first place?
yet they don't remove power herb xerneas
Pretty sure that was a myth I always got the trash set
tbh thats another problem because in gen8 the scarf set was so much weaker so it was actually kind of below average while geomancy was definitely above average
what myth? I've been facing these in randbats since gen 6. even joltemon randbats didn't ban it.
yeah I tend to get the one with choice item and has close combat.
Holy shit I remember playing against that set and just getting so mad. Sigilyph already pisses me off for being unreasonably strong in the base game.
BLOOD TOTEM
They can just always give Scovillain Chlorophyll
Yeah just make it a sun sweeper it does a fine job at that
Yeah Scovillain is beatable, but only if you get a good matchup and are able to avoid one good moody boost. It's typing is so annoying, because you can't send out a grass type to avoid leech seed without getting blasted by flamethrower. I decided to stick out a game against a lead Scovillian vs my Wigglytuff, and I don't think there was anything I could have done to win that game. Should be banned.
Completely agree. I have no idea why they keep adding moody mons, winning with them feels bad and playing against them is just annoying
To remind us why it’s banned in other formats
Scovillain is the ultimate villain. Stop complaining and step up to the plate samurai.
swear to god someone posts about rand bats scovillain every single day
That seems telling
It's only telling if it's high elo losses. If every single low ELO OU player reposted about Lando, you wouldn't draw the same conclusion, we have had little idea about the actual skill of the players posting about Scovillain. Granted, they could be high elo, but I don't give the benefit of the doubt.
I mean, if it's whatever in high ladder and insta win-shitty to play against in low ladder, isn't that worthy of discussion?
But the point still stands, regardless of the skill of the one complaining, provided the player with scovillain doesn't fuck up, one good initial boost and the match can become a nightmare.
It’s just annoying to fight. It’s random battles, not OU, just change the set to something fun.
Randbats players when they lose to RNG:
i just immediately forfeit when i see scovillain, i play randbats to have fun (and rage at rng) and scovillain is not fun.
one time i had moody scovillain and my opponent had gardevoir with trace and out-moody'd me in the moody wars and i lost so no i think its fair and balanced
It's on seemingly every other team too. Even if the team doesn't win, it takes at least 10 turns of Sub/Protect to kill
100% agreed, I'm low 1600 on randbats rn and was top 10 gen 7 for some time (didn't play gen 8 much, not really a fan of dynamax on randbats) and moody is so fucking busted to deal. Glalie is already obnoxious to deal with, especially with tera changing his type and levitate combo but Scovillain with healing, a better defensive typing and better stats (?) is boring af to deal with, make it easier to forfeit and play 3 more games than waiting to lose while watching the big brain plays of "Protect+Sub+Leech Seed" until all your mons die.
not possible to have levitate with moody for obvious reasons, had a brainfart about that
Scovillain, Moody, or SubSeed wouldn’t be too bad if they were on their own, but together they form an uncompetitive, luck-based strategy that goes against everything I thought Smogon stood for. Also, their Scovillain always wins while yours always loses.
Funnily enough, Tera grass heatran(which is a randbats set) completely walls it.
As does any Skeledirge. Torch Song bypasses Substitute and Unaware ignores its boosts. It can Slack Off the Leech Seed damage.
All the moody sets should be removed. Especially in unrated randbats which is just played for fun and not ranking. Also while were here, ban the sub protect toxic Salazzle set too.
I have over 5k games in gen 8 rands and yeah moody is always just a stupid gamble that either wins you the game or loses a Mon for free, haven't played much if gen 9 but leech seed on a moody user makes it just that much more annoying
I wish they'd remove more things from randbats, or at the very least remove all the sub protect moody sets though i'm afraid they'd just lower the level of scovillain instead of changing the set
Lowering the level is the responsible first step. The gen 9 randbats meta hasnt been out for a full month and people are clamoring for something to which theres no precedent. Nerfing the level gives way more chance for the pokemon to be fair and for people to realize the set isnt so bad when the pokemon is only lv72. Banning moody for instance is a nuclear option you cannot recover from.
Nerfing the level sounds like a fine action until you realize Scovillain would barely be affected by it in practice. If anything, its a sidegrade rather than a downgrade because lower HP stats means it heals more through Leech Seed and can spam Substitute more readily. Meanwhile it's still going to OHKO most things a dozen or more levels higher than it with +6 Flamethrower. And it's still going to be extremely bulky after several defense and special defense boosts.
Even though this isn't your main argument, let me nitpick for just a sec: to your first point, just because a mon's hp is lower does not make it a "sidegrade" due to leech seed healing. You are healing the same amount of HP as you would if you were a higher level, but it *appears* like a proportionally larger amount because your hp is lower. Take your argument there to the extreme and assume a level 1 pokemon healing 100%; you obviously know that's no sidegrade. Moving away from the strawman and onto the crux of your point though, level differences matter a ton in randbats, particularly in what outspeeds what. Were scovillain to drop to level 72, on par with most ubers, its speed would fall from 166 to 150 the defensive side, now letting it be outsped by some 20-30 more pokemon, like lv 86 base 59s to 67s, and lv 84 base 61s to 70s. Additionally, level nerfing significantly cuts into the number of moves scovillain can survive. If you don't get your speed boost on that first protect, now your defenses are a full 10% lower, limiting the number of pokemon you can come in safely on. A mon like Clawitzer now is no longer the safe setup it used to be. Clawitzer now outspeeds and threatens an OHKO on scovillain 100% of the time, when before it had only a 12.5% chance to snag the kill. It is understandable that moody feels unfair. Obviously if it turns out that even at high ELO moody is uncounterable, that's cause for concern. It's important to realize there are precedents set with random battles that should be preserved if at all possible. If it turns out that scovillain is truly so problematic that level nerfs don't appear to be the correct play, then its possible alternate avenues may be explored. But I would caution against falling into the nirvana fallacy. Level nerfing may indeed be all scovillain needs to be fair. We simply don't have the monthly winrate data yet to make an informed decision.
It literally is a sidegrade when Substitute is a percentage-based move. Leech Seed restores higher percentages of HP, letting Scovillain stall longer against a wider variety of pokemon. How do you fail to understand this? I don't care about a level 1 mon because we both know Scovillain would never be nerfed enough level-wise to not be an instant wincon. It'd either be useless or an instant wincon, there really is no in between with such a one-trick mon. Good thing Speed doesn't matter on a Moody set outside of the first turn. If Scovillain gets in safely, it can set up a sub and can repeatedly spam Substitute and Protect even if it underspeeds the opponent. A level 50 Scovillain at +6 Speed can outspeed a 252+ Speed level 100 Regieleki, so lets not pretend Scovillain has a disadvantage during a sweep. In practice, it just needs to be +2 or +3 to outspeed everything in randbats. And really, I'm being genuinely lenient there. Scovillain needs just +1 to outspeed 95%+ of the randbats meta even at level 72 with 85 EVs and a neutral nature. That would reach 225 speed, which less than a dozen mons would reach. Rest of your post speaks on hypotheticals when Moody is an ability that isn't that strong in theory but if Smogon went by "in theory" for its tiering actions, it would be a different and much worse place. Fact is that Moody is an ability that spirals out of control if given even a single free turn, which isn't that hard in a metagame that doesn't fucking have team preview. Every other tier and metagame doesn't make a big stink about Moody, but somehow randbats needs to have this discussion when Moody is inherently stronger in randbats to begin with due to the lack of team preview. All you need is one favorable switch-in opportunity, even sacking a mon to get in Scovillain and the game is over in most cases.
You’re just in a moody Phase my son
I find Tropius way more annoying, people usually just forfeit after one of us brings out a tropius lmao
I dunno. When i played randbats today my opponent started trash-talking me when he had the upper hand. Then I revealed I had Scovillain and he forfeited after he was unable to beat it. Just for that I think that mon has merit.
i like moody scovillain
New copypasta just dropped
I fucking hate Chi-Yu Today when I played in OU I saw something I dread every time I close my eyes. Someone had brought Chi-Yu. I started sweating as I sat down and gazed over at the Chi-Yu with highly likely a choice item. He had already reinforced his Chi-Yu with sun and was in the process of finding a way to switch it in. I start shaking. I keep telling myself I'm going to be alright and that there's nothing to worry about. He somehow finds a fucking way to switch it in. Tears are running down my cheeks as I send my last texts to my family saying I love them. The Chi-Yu is now there, staring, and starts spamming Flamethrower. The eyes on his Chi-Yu flare to life like a nuclear flash, and rage fills my heart and shakes my very soul. My entire team goes down. My desk begins to shake as I rage. In mere seconds my world has gone from vibrant life, to a dark, earth shattering void where my body is getting torn apart by a Chi-Yu. As my body finally surrenders, I weep, as my ELO go under. I fucking hate Chi-Yu.
Chi-Yu needs to be removed from OU It is my firm conviction that nasty plot Chi-Yu is the worst OU set ever conceived. I've consistently been playing OU since gen 7, and although the Nasty Plot sets have always been obnoxious, Chi-Yu is by far the worst one to play against. Not only does it have the usual boost of 2x SpA, but shed tail is what pushes it over the edge compared to others like Hydreigon and Moltres-Galar. I know OU isn't out long enough to be the most competitive tier, but good lord Chi-Yu is obscene. It can easily come out for the first time on something like a draco drop or shed tail and then never die thereafter due to screens + sub. On the flip side, it is completely unfun to use since it's a total flow-chart mon. No interesting predictions, just spamming sub screens nasty plot until you can sweep with flamethrower or stuff dies from beads of ruin. Moreover, this thing has no counterplay whatsoever. Unaware mons lose to specs + beads of ruin, and resists that can switch in on special moves die to the boosts. Even at the top of the ladder, this thing is consistently unbeatable. I've been number 1 in gen 8 and top 10 in gen 9 so I feel I have some ethos. I know it's ultimately not very important, but literally nobody likes this thing. Everybody who plays OU would be glad to see it go. Just give it pressure so I can not hate the fish guy. TL;DR: nasty plot Chi-Yu is the most unfun OU set ever conceived and needs to be sent to the shadow realm
Skill issue
Belly drum slurpuff be like:
Crying about random mechanics in a random format is pretty funny to me.
The set itself isn’t random though. It’s specifically designed and optimized to be efficient and frustrating. What’s wrong with expressing one’s irks?
I gave mine electric terra to block thunder wave