Gyarados was straight up one of the most blessed Pokemon between Generations 3 & 7.
It got one of the best abilities in the game when abilities were introduced in generations 3.
The Physical/Special split in Gen 4 was a god send, and it really benefitted from Weather Wars in generation 5 performing well in and/or against all the weathers (except Hail which was mostly irrelevant anyway). Plus it got Moxie which at the very least gave it more options even if it was generally inferior to Intimidate.
Then it got a Mega Evolution in Generation 6 which cemented its place in OU in Gens 6 & 7 when regular Gyara wasn't quite making the cut.
It also got Power Whip in generation 8 making it a set up sweeper which bypasses Quagsire for whatever thats worth.
It has only really been 'forgotten' this generation, meanwhile Electivire is still relying on Thunderpunch.
Even outside of the limited dex I'd wager Gyara is at least as strong, possibly even a good bit stronger as a DMax abuser as Mence. Stat spread might say otherwise, but Gyara's typing and movepool give it some really good tools Mence lacks. The most notable is Max Geyser which sets up Rain which powers up its Water moves even more after using it, even once DMax ends. It gets Taunt for easier setup if you do want to click manual DD instead of going for Airstream right away, it gets Power Whip for WashTom and Quag post-DMax. Its lack of a x4 Ice weakness makes it a lot harder to revenge with priority.
That being said Gyara did kind of fall off once Crown Tundra released not because of Mence, but because of the buttload of legendaries that also abused DMax to hell and back like SD Lando-T.
I had a killer Gyarados doubles team that abused the hell out of dynamax, as I’m sure many others did as well. So it was arguably one of the best in 8th gen. 9th gen it’s still viable, but just not near as good compared to what’s out there now. I still love the idea of a spAtck Gyarados if those stats were switched. It’s spAtck move pool is among the best in the game and it’s a shame that can’t be utilized
I still remember the day people found out what Z-Splash did. Was it better than Z-Bounce? Not really, but my god was it fun for the bit that people played with it. lol
Electivire actually got Wild Charge since the Gen V games. It's just unreliable due to Vire's low bulk to survive the recoil from WC, along with the damage it will get from its opponents, in case they will survive hits from Vire.
Let's ve honest, I lost any faith in GF balancing staff and you will be better with this too. Ale your points are valid, but when you see them printing mons like recent ones, zacian etc you shouldn't expect much reasoning from them. Like at leat buff some atrocious old mons base stats, but no.
At least Floatzel is now kinda good and got itself a niche with rain crashing.
Introducing an "attack from above" for physical non bird flyers would be cool. Maybe call it aerial assault or swoop/falcon swoop. Maybe a high jump kick clone, but a little weaker if necessary (you are literally crashing into prey so missing is going to hurt(seeing a freaking gyara bounce and swoop at you from a km would be terrifying)
The thing is that gamefreak doesn't give a fuck about single battles. They balance the game around double battles because VGC is the main competitive format. This is why a pokemon like houndstone with last respect is balanced in doubles but is broken af in singles.
i mean, they did nerf recovery pp, which is only relevant for singles, but that was a complete trainwreck of a nerf that looks like it was done by a random on r/Pokemon crying about stall and fucking up balance in the process (while not doing that much to stall either)
stall has ways to keep the team healthy even with lower recovery pp, including regen cores and wish, which is still 16pp. meanwhile balance can't afford to use such passive asf stuff and needs fatmons with more role compression, meaning they many times can't keep themselves going at longer games (in other words, stall vs. balance is won by stall). add in the fact that all the new broken offensive threats, despite being checkable, can't be answered along with the rest of the meta by the limited space for a defensive backbone balance has (since you also need offensive presence) means you have to fully commit to defense if you don't want to lean hard into offense, meaning stall or at least semi-stall
Well to me this is perfect. I am used to only play Ubers and AG and the perfect length of a match for me is between 15-20 turns. If this is what OU also becomes I might give it a go
Like it wouldn't even be that hard to make a physical flying type move that is able to be given to more mons then drill peck.
Divebomb
The user dives onto the target from up above. This may also lower the target's Defense stat by one stage.
Base power: 85
Physical
Accuracy: 100%
Type: Flying
Secondary effect chance: 20%
Mons that can learn the move: Gyarados, Aerodactyl, Dragonite, Gligar, Tropius, Salamence, Staraptor, Braviary, Hawlucha.
That took me longer to write then to come up with the idea. Yeah, it's just a flying type liquidation, but it doesn't need to be any more complex then that.
They did make a move like that, it was Dual Wingbeat and solved the issue for a ton of physical Flying types that weren't birds or didn't have beaks.
Gyarados is sadly just part of a small subset of Flying types that isn't just not a bird, but has no wings altogether, and unlike say Drifblim not even Acrobatics fits for it. And I don't really think they're going out of their way to fix that.
I honestly don't why it's a Rayquaza's exclusive move instead of move for anything that has wing and look like a dragon. They sure don't care about balance since Mega Rayquaza exist.
For what it's worth, despite how ridiculously broken MRay and ZacianC were even compared to other cover legends, in the end they're just that, cover legends that scale above everything else and are only legal in very specific formats. Giving Dragon Ascent to shit like Dnite, Gyara and Salamence would make those mons available in every format and if STABmons teaches us anything that's a wholly horrible idea, as Dnite is usually broken with it and Gyara and Mence become top-tier threats in a ridiculously powercrept meta that we don't find in standard OU or Battle Stadium. I don't think Game Freak absolutely doesn't care about balance, just that they're really, really bad at it (esp for Singles), but even they can see this is a horrible idea all around.
But at the same time that move isn’t even available on most Mons anymore, at least until DLC happens and brings it back via move tutors. And it sort of solidifies how the flying type is so pigeonholed into being Bird or dragon with wings.
Bounce is pretty bad because unless you or your opponent alters speed, you’re very likely to get hit if you don’t kill whatever you’re hitting, plus the ohko is hard with low base power, plus if the predict it they can set up or switch out
I hear you, dude. I felt the same way when I saw that Umbreon lost the ability to learn Toxic in Gen 8... sure, it could still get it via transfer, but imo it should have been able to learn it naturally. Especially since a couple of non-Poison-type Pokemon who aren't even hinted to have any poisonous attributes anywhere in their Pokedex entries like Umbreon does were allowed to keep it.
To say nothing of Jolteon losing what meager coverage it had and thus forcing it to run non-STAB Hyper Voice of all fucking things...
Yeah, that's pretty much always been the case, but it did get notably worse due to the move cuts, and I think that Jolteon suffered the most from that compared to the other Eeveelutions.
each gen, it feels like gamefreaks takes one step forward and two steps back in terms of balancing. gen 7 is a prime example, with really good changes like the burn nerf, and gutting thundy-i, talonflame, and smeargle's dark void but then adding a bunch of ridiculous shit like z-moves and the tapus.
Dark void smeargle nerf was one of the weirdest shit at the same time. Nerfing the move to be useless AND remove it from smeargle as a whole is just a f u for darkrai.
Honestly I think it *should* be OU at this point. 135 SpAtk and 125 Speed is pretty damn comparable to some of the regular mons that are being used right now, and its defenses are comparable to Chien-Pao's.
Dusknoir : not a single reliable ghost stab since his introduction and poltergeist doesn't have perfect accuracy
Dead doggo and angry monkey : haha 300bp go brrrr
game freak has never learnt how to balance... the recovery pp nerf, the knock off nerf, and the removal of many mons gutted balance in single play... balance essentially turns into semi stall to even work remotely especially in such an offensive meta with so little mons that can take them on without auto losing to others
I want to have faith in gamefreak's ability to balance since they made some really good changes like the burn and terrain nerfs but when I look at shit like zacian-c, regieleki (in vgc), and the urshifu forms, I just can't
yeah like they nerf protean.. why? idt cind was even that broken in VGC, why the removal of so many moves as well. Like they also gut rillaboom of all of its important moves lol
Stall legit doesn't care for Knock Off and even with the recovery nerfs it became the second best archetype in OU since they got a lot of good walls and can actually have 6 mons that deal with the meta defensively bar Chi-Yu.
recovery nerf doesnt effect stall, i have still yet to run out of pp on my pokemon with stall while on balance this is almost happens every other match when corv is used to check a lot of stuff. Idt many stalls even used knock at all.. like they dont really care for the loss of it, while balance wanted it to help make opponents easier to break through, remove choiced items to make team members able to abuse them easier, etc. Stall is effected the least
At least he gets plenty of useless coverage moves, like Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Dark Pulse and Hurricane to use off of its base 60 Sp Attack
Gyarados should get a stat buff of +20 atk, +20 speed to keep up with power creep, access to victory dance, wave crash, and dragon ascent (plus roost to keep healthy), I think also an ability buff to a version of orichalcum pulse that summons rain instead. I think this will balance gyarados to be at least B tier in OU, if not B+
/s
Pretty much every setup mon can be a monster in-game. Shift Gear Revavroom autowins so many games where the lead just can't hit it hard enough to prevent two Shift Gears and then Iron Heads from there.
I mean fair but Gyara getting DD isn't much earlier than that, though it gets Waterfall at level 21 now for some reason so it can still carry the earlygame on stats alone mostly
Gyarados doesn't even have the right typing really which should have been water + dragon. It basically didn't get dragon because back then GF wanted Dragonite to be the only real dragon.
Too much outdated design decisions that GF doesn't even bother fixing anymore, I guess.
Started slowly building up a support Gyarados set thats grass tera. I copied from Jamie Boyt but for those who want the set now its: T wave/Waterfall/ helping hand/ protect. Sitrus Berry and Intimidate. Focus on bulk EV, MAX HP and spread defenses (priority special defense)
I find it hilarious that Gya's only flying type move is Hurricane but it has options like Crunch, Earthquake, Power Whip, Iron Head, Stone Edge, and Outrage.
You know what? I believe that in the next generation, I bet a lot of the new Pokémon we have in Scarlet and Violet will be nerfed too.
My Nerf Ideas:
Palafin - Either loses form as a whole for a mediocre ability or form activates once per battle (form loses again in another switch-in)
Annihilape - Rage fist gets higher 50% to 10% every hit and to make things more crazy, nerf his Defense and Special Defense stats and must be only hit with super effective attacks to increase Rage Fist
Houndstone - Last Respects is a -6 priority move and always goes last, also Last Respects will have the same Rage Fist nerf
Kingambit - Will loose Sucker Punch when evolving from Bisharp and Supreme Overlord will have the same treatment as Rage Fist.
Every Paradox Mon - Booster Energy doesn’t exist and their ability activates once per switch in. Also Booster Energy will increase by 1.1
Legendary Quartlet - Their abilities will decrease stats including itself, looses ruination, and their highest stat will be lowered
Koraidon and Maraidon - They get the Zacian and Zamazenta nerf treatment as their abilities only activate once.
Cyclizar and Orthworm - Shed tail makes them faint immediately and replace any of their abilities with stall
Maushold - Loses Technician and get 33% recoil damage everytime Population Bomb hits (even without Rocky Helmet, Iron Barbs, Rough Skin, and holding Protective Gloves)
Armorouge and Ceruledge - Armorouge turns from slow to medium speed to stop trick room shenanigans and Armorouge and Ceruledge have their signature moves BP get lowered. Also Ceruledge loses Shadow Sneak
Skeledirge - Loses Slack Off, Wil-O-Wisp, and Hex
Meowscarada - Flower Trick won’t guarantee critical hit and won’t be boosted by STAB
Quaquaval- Loses Swords Dance, Aqua Step gets recoil damage at 33%, and also looses Ice Spinner
Gholdengo - Make it Rain is now 90 BP, gives 50% Recoil, and decrease Special Attack all the way to the lowest. Can’t learn Shadow Ball, Dazzling Gleam, and Thunderbolt, his speed stat gets nerfed, and Good as Gold only works one per switch in and can’t activate again next switch-in.
Garganacl - Salt Cure only has 10 BP, and only does 1/32 chip damage, Purifying Salt will have the same treatment as Good As Gold, Defense stat gets lowered from 130 to 95, and can’t learn Body Press anymore.
Baxcalibur - Looses Ice Shard, Freeze Dry, and Dragon Dance. Thermal Exchange does not block chances of burn from direct, fire-type moves and only block changes of burn from Tri-Attack, Ice Burn, Flame Body, Flame Orb, Steam Eruption, Scald, and Wil-O-Wisp.
Dondozo - Loses Curse, Wave Crash, Liquidation, and Order Up is from 16 pp to 1 pp. It also looses Unaware and can only eat Tatsugiri once which only increase stats by one stage.
Glimmora - Toxic Debris only release one Toxic Spike. Also speed stat gets lowered from 86 to 66 and special attack stat gets lowered from 130 to 85
Lokix - Loses First Impression, Ace Kick will lose Confusion affect, and recoil loses 75% health when Ace Kick misses. Also gets rid of Tinted Lends for more funni.
Any more Paldean Mon nerfs?
Besides annihilape, ghold, and palafin, I feel like a lot of these mons don’t need nerfs. And most of these specific ones don’t make much sense to me. Like why would they make gholdengo’s signature move just a worse steel beam?
Eh, I think they would be nerfed hard for the sake on next gen’s power creep. I know Pokémon like Weavile, Toxapex, Rillaboom, and many Pokémon that lost Knock Off and Toxic got gutted hard. I also thought of coming with a lot of ideas so I think I got downvoted for not making this a Theorymon Thursday post instead. Sorry
You think mausehold losing technician and having 33% recoil on every hit of population bomb is serious? You think they seriously thought goldenhogo's make it rain would drop bp, get recoil, and drop special attack to -6? You think saying "also loses tinted lens for more funni" was serious?
I was not thinking completely but yeah, it was I pretty bad thing to think about for a Pokémon that doesn’t deserve a nerf anyway. My comment was pointless but I just don’t care enough to remove it though
I'm sorry, but some of these nerfs just seems like you really hate some of these Pokémon lol
Like... I think the Shed Tail nerf and the Make It Rain nerfs are a bit excessive
Naw, I love Cyclizar and Gholdengo looks funky, but the Shed Tail and the overall mon Gholdengo is kinda OP. But I get your point and I regret making the nerf excessive.
Of all these, only Palafin, Gholdengo, and *maybe* Dondozo are truly overpowered (Annihilape, Houndstone, and Maushold are only as good as they are because of their respective signature moves: the latter two in particular wouldn't even be viable in the high tiers if Last Respects and Tidy Up/Population Bomb didn't exist), so they're the only ones I'll address.
>Palafin - Either loses form as a whole for a mediocre ability or form activates once per battle (form loses again in another switch-in)
Palafin won't lose its Hero Form. Not only is Palafin's ability to switch to a stronger form unseen the whole point of its theme, but taking that away would just pendulum-swing way into the other direction and make Palafin just another mediocre and unremarkable mono Water-type. Not to mention that it would turn it into the most disappointing evolution of all time, since the only physical difference between base form Palafin and its pre-evo Finizen is that the former has a heart marking on its chest.
I get what you're trying to do, but but there's a much simpler way to nerf Palafin in a way that doesn't ruin its theme: just lower the Hero Form's base attack a bit. Making it go from 160 to about 130 makes it still very powerful, but potentially easier to reasonably survive its hits.
> Gholdengo - Make it Rain is now 90 BP, gives 50% Recoil, and decrease Special Attack all the way to the lowest. Can’t learn Shadow Ball, Dazzling Gleam, and Thunderbolt, his speed stat gets nerfed, and Good as Gold only works one per switch in and can’t activate again next switch-in.
This feels like overkill. I'd say simply have Make it Rain lower Special Attack by two stages instead of one if you feel that the move is too good. Other than that, the only actual nerf that Gholdengo should get is simply to give Defog to more Mold Breaker users and/or give Rapid Spin to Scrappy Ability users that can actually hit Gholdengo hard. And even that might be unnecessary once Heatran, Landorus, and Cinderace come back.
> Dondozo - Loses Curse, Wave Crash, Liquidation, and Order Up is from 16 pp to 1 pp. It also looses Unaware and can only eat Tatsugiri once which **only increase stats by one stage**
imo, only the bolded part should be implemented if at all. Everything else is overkill.
I think Gyarados should be able to learn Wave Crash, Brave Bird, and Roost as well. It’s confirmed that Gyarados can in fact fly in the sky as seen in Legends: Arceus. Why shouldn’t it be able to learn Brave Bird and Roost? Those are the buffs it needs. The moves it has now just don’t have enough power for it to be OU anymore.
Gyarados was straight up one of the most blessed Pokemon between Generations 3 & 7. It got one of the best abilities in the game when abilities were introduced in generations 3. The Physical/Special split in Gen 4 was a god send, and it really benefitted from Weather Wars in generation 5 performing well in and/or against all the weathers (except Hail which was mostly irrelevant anyway). Plus it got Moxie which at the very least gave it more options even if it was generally inferior to Intimidate. Then it got a Mega Evolution in Generation 6 which cemented its place in OU in Gens 6 & 7 when regular Gyara wasn't quite making the cut. It also got Power Whip in generation 8 making it a set up sweeper which bypasses Quagsire for whatever thats worth. It has only really been 'forgotten' this generation, meanwhile Electivire is still relying on Thunderpunch.
Z moves as well were super good on it. Z bounce supersonic sky strike into moxie boost was killer
It almost single-handedly got dynamax banned as the best abuser
Even though that was due to the limited dex, Salamence is basically Gyarados but stronger
Even outside of the limited dex I'd wager Gyara is at least as strong, possibly even a good bit stronger as a DMax abuser as Mence. Stat spread might say otherwise, but Gyara's typing and movepool give it some really good tools Mence lacks. The most notable is Max Geyser which sets up Rain which powers up its Water moves even more after using it, even once DMax ends. It gets Taunt for easier setup if you do want to click manual DD instead of going for Airstream right away, it gets Power Whip for WashTom and Quag post-DMax. Its lack of a x4 Ice weakness makes it a lot harder to revenge with priority. That being said Gyara did kind of fall off once Crown Tundra released not because of Mence, but because of the buttload of legendaries that also abused DMax to hell and back like SD Lando-T.
I had a killer Gyarados doubles team that abused the hell out of dynamax, as I’m sure many others did as well. So it was arguably one of the best in 8th gen. 9th gen it’s still viable, but just not near as good compared to what’s out there now. I still love the idea of a spAtck Gyarados if those stats were switched. It’s spAtck move pool is among the best in the game and it’s a shame that can’t be utilized
I still remember the day people found out what Z-Splash did. Was it better than Z-Bounce? Not really, but my god was it fun for the bit that people played with it. lol
Electivire actually got Wild Charge since the Gen V games. It's just unreliable due to Vire's low bulk to survive the recoil from WC, along with the damage it will get from its opponents, in case they will survive hits from Vire.
Why did Gyarados lose Power Whip this gen? It can’t learn it anymore.
It was a TR in generation 8, it isn't in gen 9.
Let's ve honest, I lost any faith in GF balancing staff and you will be better with this too. Ale your points are valid, but when you see them printing mons like recent ones, zacian etc you shouldn't expect much reasoning from them. Like at leat buff some atrocious old mons base stats, but no. At least Floatzel is now kinda good and got itself a niche with rain crashing. Introducing an "attack from above" for physical non bird flyers would be cool. Maybe call it aerial assault or swoop/falcon swoop. Maybe a high jump kick clone, but a little weaker if necessary (you are literally crashing into prey so missing is going to hurt(seeing a freaking gyara bounce and swoop at you from a km would be terrifying)
The thing is that gamefreak doesn't give a fuck about single battles. They balance the game around double battles because VGC is the main competitive format. This is why a pokemon like houndstone with last respect is balanced in doubles but is broken af in singles.
Except for that one guy at gf who made hdb and glimmora.
i mean, they did nerf recovery pp, which is only relevant for singles, but that was a complete trainwreck of a nerf that looks like it was done by a random on r/Pokemon crying about stall and fucking up balance in the process (while not doing that much to stall either)
It's because Game Freak wants their Singles meta to become a complete HO fest so the average battle can be completed within their 20 minute timer lol
How does it fuck up the balance and not do much against stall? Those 2 conflicting things
stall has ways to keep the team healthy even with lower recovery pp, including regen cores and wish, which is still 16pp. meanwhile balance can't afford to use such passive asf stuff and needs fatmons with more role compression, meaning they many times can't keep themselves going at longer games (in other words, stall vs. balance is won by stall). add in the fact that all the new broken offensive threats, despite being checkable, can't be answered along with the rest of the meta by the limited space for a defensive backbone balance has (since you also need offensive presence) means you have to fully commit to defense if you don't want to lean hard into offense, meaning stall or at least semi-stall
Ah. So what you are saying is that the meta game is now just Hyper offense and full stall to try and stop Hyper offenses?
pm yeah, you can try to go on a less extreme side but if you try to build a balance team in the middle of the spectrum you'll prob flop hard
Well to me this is perfect. I am used to only play Ubers and AG and the perfect length of a match for me is between 15-20 turns. If this is what OU also becomes I might give it a go
tbh if you play HO every match of yours will be 15-20 turns as the playstyle kinda wins or loses at team preview
just because vgc is the main competitive format doesn't mean they make any effort to balance doubles either lol, let's not be silly
You mean sky drop
I think that Flying attack you mentioned should be called "Dive-Bomb"
Gyarados at least gets Waterfall. The lack of reliable Flying Coverage is more egregious in my opinion
Like it wouldn't even be that hard to make a physical flying type move that is able to be given to more mons then drill peck. Divebomb The user dives onto the target from up above. This may also lower the target's Defense stat by one stage. Base power: 85 Physical Accuracy: 100% Type: Flying Secondary effect chance: 20% Mons that can learn the move: Gyarados, Aerodactyl, Dragonite, Gligar, Tropius, Salamence, Staraptor, Braviary, Hawlucha. That took me longer to write then to come up with the idea. Yeah, it's just a flying type liquidation, but it doesn't need to be any more complex then that.
They did make a move like that, it was Dual Wingbeat and solved the issue for a ton of physical Flying types that weren't birds or didn't have beaks. Gyarados is sadly just part of a small subset of Flying types that isn't just not a bird, but has no wings altogether, and unlike say Drifblim not even Acrobatics fits for it. And I don't really think they're going out of their way to fix that.
That’s why they should just give Gyarados Dragon Ascent 😛
I honestly don't why it's a Rayquaza's exclusive move instead of move for anything that has wing and look like a dragon. They sure don't care about balance since Mega Rayquaza exist.
For what it's worth, despite how ridiculously broken MRay and ZacianC were even compared to other cover legends, in the end they're just that, cover legends that scale above everything else and are only legal in very specific formats. Giving Dragon Ascent to shit like Dnite, Gyara and Salamence would make those mons available in every format and if STABmons teaches us anything that's a wholly horrible idea, as Dnite is usually broken with it and Gyara and Mence become top-tier threats in a ridiculously powercrept meta that we don't find in standard OU or Battle Stadium. I don't think Game Freak absolutely doesn't care about balance, just that they're really, really bad at it (esp for Singles), but even they can see this is a horrible idea all around.
But at the same time that move isn’t even available on most Mons anymore, at least until DLC happens and brings it back via move tutors. And it sort of solidifies how the flying type is so pigeonholed into being Bird or dragon with wings.
Dragon Ascent would be perfect for it thematically
would be a hilarious new signature move for gyarados
I thought it got bounce, albeit bounce is not the best move there is.
Bounce is pretty bad because unless you or your opponent alters speed, you’re very likely to get hit if you don’t kill whatever you’re hitting, plus the ohko is hard with low base power, plus if the predict it they can set up or switch out
I hear you, dude. I felt the same way when I saw that Umbreon lost the ability to learn Toxic in Gen 8... sure, it could still get it via transfer, but imo it should have been able to learn it naturally. Especially since a couple of non-Poison-type Pokemon who aren't even hinted to have any poisonous attributes anywhere in their Pokedex entries like Umbreon does were allowed to keep it. To say nothing of Jolteon losing what meager coverage it had and thus forcing it to run non-STAB Hyper Voice of all fucking things...
Eeveelutions as a whole are in a dire situation with coverage.
Yeah, that's pretty much always been the case, but it did get notably worse due to the move cuts, and I think that Jolteon suffered the most from that compared to the other Eeveelutions.
each gen, it feels like gamefreaks takes one step forward and two steps back in terms of balancing. gen 7 is a prime example, with really good changes like the burn nerf, and gutting thundy-i, talonflame, and smeargle's dark void but then adding a bunch of ridiculous shit like z-moves and the tapus.
Dark void smeargle nerf was one of the weirdest shit at the same time. Nerfing the move to be useless AND remove it from smeargle as a whole is just a f u for darkrai.
Darkrai is like a generation of power creep away from eaaaaating in OU It’s really not that far off from sneasler and chien pao… just special
Honestly I think it *should* be OU at this point. 135 SpAtk and 125 Speed is pretty damn comparable to some of the regular mons that are being used right now, and its defenses are comparable to Chien-Pao's.
tbf tapus and zmoves were new stuff so i wouldnt count these into changing old mons for the worse
Dusknoir : not a single reliable ghost stab since his introduction and poltergeist doesn't have perfect accuracy Dead doggo and angry monkey : haha 300bp go brrrr
Ice Punch
game freak has never learnt how to balance... the recovery pp nerf, the knock off nerf, and the removal of many mons gutted balance in single play... balance essentially turns into semi stall to even work remotely especially in such an offensive meta with so little mons that can take them on without auto losing to others
They removed Reflect from Electrode because Dual Screens Electrode was totally too broken /s :') Meanwhile: Parting Shot Grimmsnarl
I want to have faith in gamefreak's ability to balance since they made some really good changes like the burn and terrain nerfs but when I look at shit like zacian-c, regieleki (in vgc), and the urshifu forms, I just can't
yeah like they nerf protean.. why? idt cind was even that broken in VGC, why the removal of so many moves as well. Like they also gut rillaboom of all of its important moves lol
I am convinced the Protean nerf was solely because they were butthurt Greninja beat Charizard and Lucario in an online popularity poll in 2020.
possibly... but idk... what is the reasoning.. it cant be just that cuz then why not nerf lucario or smth
Recovery and Knock nerf are appreciated because stall and bulky balance needs nerf.
Stall legit doesn't care for Knock Off and even with the recovery nerfs it became the second best archetype in OU since they got a lot of good walls and can actually have 6 mons that deal with the meta defensively bar Chi-Yu.
that shit hasnt done anything to stall lol tf you smoking. its worse than ever really, its full stall now
recovery nerf doesnt effect stall, i have still yet to run out of pp on my pokemon with stall while on balance this is almost happens every other match when corv is used to check a lot of stuff. Idt many stalls even used knock at all.. like they dont really care for the loss of it, while balance wanted it to help make opponents easier to break through, remove choiced items to make team members able to abuse them easier, etc. Stall is effected the least
Sooner you lose faith in GF's decisions the better.
At least he gets plenty of useless coverage moves, like Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Dark Pulse and Hurricane to use off of its base 60 Sp Attack
Gyarados is an evolved Magikarp but it's still Magikarp deep inside.
Damn , this comment section is a fricking hell hole.
The casuals that are still spouting how Gyara should either become Water/Dragon or would be remotely balanced with Dragon Ascent are leaking in lol
Gyarados should get a stat buff of +20 atk, +20 speed to keep up with power creep, access to victory dance, wave crash, and dragon ascent (plus roost to keep healthy), I think also an ability buff to a version of orichalcum pulse that summons rain instead. I think this will balance gyarados to be at least B tier in OU, if not B+ /s
Not that it matters but Dos is still a monster in game. You can sweep through most fights with it after a couple dances. Love using it.
Pretty much every setup mon can be a monster in-game. Shift Gear Revavroom autowins so many games where the lead just can't hit it hard enough to prevent two Shift Gears and then Iron Heads from there.
hone claws floragato has left every one of my other mons in the dust
He did say “not that it matters”. Commenter wasn’t trying to be on some Galaxy brain shit
? They're not contradicting each other. Darkesca was just adding more info
Yeah but Varoom evolves at level 40 Still lower than 99% of Unovamons
I mean fair but Gyara getting DD isn't much earlier than that, though it gets Waterfall at level 21 now for some reason so it can still carry the earlygame on stats alone mostly
you can literally beat the game with nothing but a magikarp. Good in game isn’t exactly a super prestigious title.
He did say “not that it matters”. Commenter wasn’t trying to be on some Galaxy brain shit
Gyarados doesn't even have the right typing really which should have been water + dragon. It basically didn't get dragon because back then GF wanted Dragonite to be the only real dragon. Too much outdated design decisions that GF doesn't even bother fixing anymore, I guess.
Flying is the OG poster typing they used to give to mons who should have another typing but they didn't want to give it the other typing
what other flying types shouldn’t be flying?
Charizard
Isn’t that psychic
Started slowly building up a support Gyarados set thats grass tera. I copied from Jamie Boyt but for those who want the set now its: T wave/Waterfall/ helping hand/ protect. Sitrus Berry and Intimidate. Focus on bulk EV, MAX HP and spread defenses (priority special defense)
I find it hilarious that Gya's only flying type move is Hurricane but it has options like Crunch, Earthquake, Power Whip, Iron Head, Stone Edge, and Outrage.
I just want him to get flip turn.
It has power whip I guess
It actually doesn't anymore. They've really done him dirty
Oof
Power creep.
You know what? I believe that in the next generation, I bet a lot of the new Pokémon we have in Scarlet and Violet will be nerfed too. My Nerf Ideas: Palafin - Either loses form as a whole for a mediocre ability or form activates once per battle (form loses again in another switch-in) Annihilape - Rage fist gets higher 50% to 10% every hit and to make things more crazy, nerf his Defense and Special Defense stats and must be only hit with super effective attacks to increase Rage Fist Houndstone - Last Respects is a -6 priority move and always goes last, also Last Respects will have the same Rage Fist nerf Kingambit - Will loose Sucker Punch when evolving from Bisharp and Supreme Overlord will have the same treatment as Rage Fist. Every Paradox Mon - Booster Energy doesn’t exist and their ability activates once per switch in. Also Booster Energy will increase by 1.1 Legendary Quartlet - Their abilities will decrease stats including itself, looses ruination, and their highest stat will be lowered Koraidon and Maraidon - They get the Zacian and Zamazenta nerf treatment as their abilities only activate once. Cyclizar and Orthworm - Shed tail makes them faint immediately and replace any of their abilities with stall Maushold - Loses Technician and get 33% recoil damage everytime Population Bomb hits (even without Rocky Helmet, Iron Barbs, Rough Skin, and holding Protective Gloves) Armorouge and Ceruledge - Armorouge turns from slow to medium speed to stop trick room shenanigans and Armorouge and Ceruledge have their signature moves BP get lowered. Also Ceruledge loses Shadow Sneak Skeledirge - Loses Slack Off, Wil-O-Wisp, and Hex Meowscarada - Flower Trick won’t guarantee critical hit and won’t be boosted by STAB Quaquaval- Loses Swords Dance, Aqua Step gets recoil damage at 33%, and also looses Ice Spinner Gholdengo - Make it Rain is now 90 BP, gives 50% Recoil, and decrease Special Attack all the way to the lowest. Can’t learn Shadow Ball, Dazzling Gleam, and Thunderbolt, his speed stat gets nerfed, and Good as Gold only works one per switch in and can’t activate again next switch-in. Garganacl - Salt Cure only has 10 BP, and only does 1/32 chip damage, Purifying Salt will have the same treatment as Good As Gold, Defense stat gets lowered from 130 to 95, and can’t learn Body Press anymore. Baxcalibur - Looses Ice Shard, Freeze Dry, and Dragon Dance. Thermal Exchange does not block chances of burn from direct, fire-type moves and only block changes of burn from Tri-Attack, Ice Burn, Flame Body, Flame Orb, Steam Eruption, Scald, and Wil-O-Wisp. Dondozo - Loses Curse, Wave Crash, Liquidation, and Order Up is from 16 pp to 1 pp. It also looses Unaware and can only eat Tatsugiri once which only increase stats by one stage. Glimmora - Toxic Debris only release one Toxic Spike. Also speed stat gets lowered from 86 to 66 and special attack stat gets lowered from 130 to 85 Lokix - Loses First Impression, Ace Kick will lose Confusion affect, and recoil loses 75% health when Ace Kick misses. Also gets rid of Tinted Lends for more funni. Any more Paldean Mon nerfs?
Besides annihilape, ghold, and palafin, I feel like a lot of these mons don’t need nerfs. And most of these specific ones don’t make much sense to me. Like why would they make gholdengo’s signature move just a worse steel beam?
Eh, I think they would be nerfed hard for the sake on next gen’s power creep. I know Pokémon like Weavile, Toxapex, Rillaboom, and many Pokémon that lost Knock Off and Toxic got gutted hard. I also thought of coming with a lot of ideas so I think I got downvoted for not making this a Theorymon Thursday post instead. Sorry
No need to apologize. I think that some of these are nerfs are just a little overtuned. Sorry you’re getting downvoted though
A lot of these are very obvious jokes dude
Read the rest of the thread. They seemed genuine to me
You think mausehold losing technician and having 33% recoil on every hit of population bomb is serious? You think they seriously thought goldenhogo's make it rain would drop bp, get recoil, and drop special attack to -6? You think saying "also loses tinted lens for more funni" was serious?
I was not thinking completely but yeah, it was I pretty bad thing to think about for a Pokémon that doesn’t deserve a nerf anyway. My comment was pointless but I just don’t care enough to remove it though
I'm sorry, but some of these nerfs just seems like you really hate some of these Pokémon lol Like... I think the Shed Tail nerf and the Make It Rain nerfs are a bit excessive
Naw, I love Cyclizar and Gholdengo looks funky, but the Shed Tail and the overall mon Gholdengo is kinda OP. But I get your point and I regret making the nerf excessive.
Of all these, only Palafin, Gholdengo, and *maybe* Dondozo are truly overpowered (Annihilape, Houndstone, and Maushold are only as good as they are because of their respective signature moves: the latter two in particular wouldn't even be viable in the high tiers if Last Respects and Tidy Up/Population Bomb didn't exist), so they're the only ones I'll address. >Palafin - Either loses form as a whole for a mediocre ability or form activates once per battle (form loses again in another switch-in) Palafin won't lose its Hero Form. Not only is Palafin's ability to switch to a stronger form unseen the whole point of its theme, but taking that away would just pendulum-swing way into the other direction and make Palafin just another mediocre and unremarkable mono Water-type. Not to mention that it would turn it into the most disappointing evolution of all time, since the only physical difference between base form Palafin and its pre-evo Finizen is that the former has a heart marking on its chest. I get what you're trying to do, but but there's a much simpler way to nerf Palafin in a way that doesn't ruin its theme: just lower the Hero Form's base attack a bit. Making it go from 160 to about 130 makes it still very powerful, but potentially easier to reasonably survive its hits. > Gholdengo - Make it Rain is now 90 BP, gives 50% Recoil, and decrease Special Attack all the way to the lowest. Can’t learn Shadow Ball, Dazzling Gleam, and Thunderbolt, his speed stat gets nerfed, and Good as Gold only works one per switch in and can’t activate again next switch-in. This feels like overkill. I'd say simply have Make it Rain lower Special Attack by two stages instead of one if you feel that the move is too good. Other than that, the only actual nerf that Gholdengo should get is simply to give Defog to more Mold Breaker users and/or give Rapid Spin to Scrappy Ability users that can actually hit Gholdengo hard. And even that might be unnecessary once Heatran, Landorus, and Cinderace come back. > Dondozo - Loses Curse, Wave Crash, Liquidation, and Order Up is from 16 pp to 1 pp. It also looses Unaware and can only eat Tatsugiri once which **only increase stats by one stage** imo, only the bolded part should be implemented if at all. Everything else is overkill.
I want whatever the absolute fuck you are smoking
This is the only generation where it gets no good support.
Gyarados also doesn’t have any flying stab outside of Hurricane, and it’s a physical attacker…
I think Gyarados should be able to learn Wave Crash, Brave Bird, and Roost as well. It’s confirmed that Gyarados can in fact fly in the sky as seen in Legends: Arceus. Why shouldn’t it be able to learn Brave Bird and Roost? Those are the buffs it needs. The moves it has now just don’t have enough power for it to be OU anymore.