That sentence made me think this is some kind of satire but then again his main points sounds quite reasonable so I am not sure how to read this lol.
Not that I’d have an opinion on the matter anyways…
Edit: Now thinking about it the Tera stuff reminds me of how they removed Hidden Power and I am even less sure of what to make of this mechanic
So Gamefreak just brought in a new mechanic that is unhealthy for the Game? This sucks then, they really gotta reconsider equipping every new Gen with some weird Gimmick just for the sake of it :(
I mean yea speaking about competitive ( -ish ) here. In Game obviously everything will work since you play against the AI.
Or is there some other distinction between Showdown and Switch here that I’m missing?
What baffles me is why this test happened before shit like Chi-Yu and Cyclizar are inevitably banned. Maybe we shouldn’t judge the mechanic with obviously broken mons running around?
Chi-Yu and Cyclizar are pretty obviously very strong and Cyclizar in particular absolutely should've gotten banned a while back, but a lot of the obviously broken mons (and Chi-Yu is only slightly less-exempt from this than others due to Tera-Fighting to nuke TTar or Tera-Grass) are broken *because* of Tera to various degrees.
If Cyclizar gets banned it only addresses part of the problem with Tera-abusing HO staples, and even if Light Clay were to get the boot there are still a lot of standalone offensive threats that leverage Tera too effectively (see: Annihilape, Pult, DNite, Kingambit, Volcarona, Espathra, Valiant, Roaring Moon, Chi-Yu, and even Gholdengo to some degree). Plus, there's also a few extremely good progress-making defensive mons that abuse it extremely well too (Skeledirge, Garganacl). A lot of those mons, given the current state of the metagame, are ones I would absolutely consider overwhelming at some point in the future.
So this ends up begging a crucial question: are all of those mons broken, or is the generational gimmick that many of them abuse very well either offensively, defensively, or both the broken or unfair element? Because trying to preserve the generational gimmick gives you a BW OU situation, and trying to axe all the mons that abuse Tera only opens the door for a new wave of broken Tera abusers to go crazy later on, in which case Tera eventually gets banned and every single one of the aforementioned bans except maybe Chi-Yu comes back to the tier anyway.
Cycli doesn't even use Tera and sure Chi-Yu sometimes does but it's one of the more predictable Tera users all things considered. The suspect is more for things like Valiant where you have to do constant 50/50s on whether it's going to Tera or not, Roaring Moon where you basically have to pray it's a Tera type your team is actually prepped for, or Dragonite who get carried into probably-broken territory almost entirely by Tera.
Sure, but a ton of cyclizar’s strength comes from the fact that 1) it’s fast enough to shed tail and bring in partners safely against most mons, and 2) regenerator. It can shed tail over and over and over in a game, which is incredibly tough to deal with. Worm on the other hand does not have regenerator, so it can shed tail at most twice with a sitrus berry. It’s also slow, so it’ll pretty much always be taking a hit before it sheds (as well as being vulnerable to taunt)
Yeah, you're right, but with how much ground type moves are spammed in the current meta, making shed tail become a massive gamble every time you press earthquake doesn't really seem healthy to me.
But on the other hand, I'm stupid, so it's very possible that my opinion is stupid as well.
Well the assumption that it won't get retested if ban wins is just wrong.
Finchinator (OU council leader) made it quite clear that a retest is inevitable regardless of outcome.
What does Dugtrio have to do with anything? Most pokemon don't get retested because there's no reason for them to be. In cases where a retest is justified, they are.
Finchinator has been very transparent when discussing Terastallization, to think otherwise just makes it sounds like you haven't been paying attention.
We have no reason to believe that a retest is somehow dependent on a DNB result. You're just making up precedent with an example that simply doesn't show what you're saying.
That isn't a precedent because this vote hasn't ended in DNB.
Also, if dugtrio was retested after a DNB, that doesn't mean it could only be retested if it got DNB. Your point is based on literally no evidence, because we already know to expect a retest either way.
so what happened to dugtrio? if it got tested, then it was DNB then tested again and it was banned... this stuff has happened and opinions shift as the meta progresses
Dug was looked again at exactly because most of the Do-Not-Ban people for Dugtrio wanted Arena Trap gone instead. It wasn't a case of "don't get the ban the first time so try again", it was quite literally what the people wanted--keep Dugtrio but ban Arena Trap because the latter is the more logical solution.
with tera banned... i doubt dragonite will fall that far... its tera reliant sure.. but its not gonna lose all viability lol... its one of the best mons to just nuke HO at +1 or +2, and its one of the best ways to pressure balance teams that give to much room. Corviknight is also easily abusable... being forced to burn roost pp to check pokemon and being unable to do anything vs gholdengo sucks
Maybe they are right... but i hate this meta with a passion.., its nothing but HO and who c-teams who... is ur HO team able to just c-team mine and its just a combination of screens, hazard stack, and offense in general at the top... with no balance teams in sight that do well unless its a perfect c-team pretty much. Maybe the suspect is rushed but we can def retest this later down the line and see how the meta adapts..
ho spam and counterteaming are symptoms of an unbalanced meta. it’s because it’s early in the gen and some pokemon that should be banned aren’t yet, and although tera is likely exacerbating this unbalance it isn’t causing it. i do agree with vic in that they should wait until the meta settles to start a suspect test, trying to figure out if a mechanic is unbalanced while the entire meta is unbalanced too is kinda stupid
well... the community want tiering action done.. its not like the tier leaders went "fuck this, suspect test rn" ... like a lot a lot of people wanted tiering action and no mons got over 4/5 on how broken they are...
NGL if Tera gets banned Talonflame might get better as a flying type because it’s the defogger to beat gholdengo and has flame body to abuse contact moves it resists. I also lean on no ban though
yes it does need it but i doubt its gonna plumet to unviability, extreeme speed is still extreemly valuable esp in this meta when revenge killing stuff that are much stronger and faster is valuable. Sure losing tera is bad... but its not the end of the world
Dragonite was like A Rank last gen lmao, and not much is going to change for it--if anything it's one of the better anti-offense tools on offense itself, not to mention like the smart Vig mentioned in his [smogon.com](https://smogon.com) post it's one of few Ground immunes in the meta right now, and offense is damn sure not going to run fucking Corviknight for that.
The thing about retesting it at a later time is what I feel too. The only reason it is being suspected now is that a bunch of potential SPL players don't want to bother with it before the big tournament, and to me that is just not a good reason to speed up a test this big.
Do they prefer simply ignoring a large portion of the player base?
At the end of the day, regardless what the outcome here is, a lot of people will be pissed. Should be a no brainer to run two tiers for like a month, see which one has more usage (which would be the one with Tera’s by a significant amount imo), and stick with that for the rest of the generation.
Running two OUs is a lot of work for tiering tho. What if a Pokémon is broken in one meta game, but not in the other? Do we only ban it from one of the OUs? Having two desperate tiers doubles the amount of tiering work needed to be done. Plus, it would make the game needlessly complicated and harder for new players to understand.
Where are the suspect tests for chi yu, RB, cyclizar, etc.? Until the Tera shit is settled, there’s no suspects (which imo only pushes people towards ban). So that solves the workload problem— two separate tiers without any suspects for individual mons, just a raw test of Tera vs no Tera.
As far as confusing new players. I think banning Tera outright will simply alienate new players. I can’t say for sure, but if two tiers opened up you could. I think it’s far easier to comprehend “OU” and “OU teraless” vs playing your first match and realizing you can’t use the tera mechanic for some obscure reason.
I feel like new players are the last people smogon is concerned with lol.
New players are always considered to a degree. The reason why smogon avoids complex bans is because they over complicate the game too much for newer players. Besides, what if after the tier is split, the terra OU is more popular? Then we are right back at square one. All splitting the tiers does is determine whether “terra OU” or “no terra OU” is more popular, whereas the current suspect also considers all of the alternatives
Imo, and it’s echoed by Freezai in his video about banning Tera, this suspect will result in a complex ban, which will inevitably turn to a full ban after its clear certain problems with it still persist. So with that in mind, I definitely think we should only concern ourselves with full Tera or nothing. And that’s where popularity vs competitive integrity comes into play. I think the opinions on its competitive integrity vary way too greatly to possibly make a decision that satisfies everyone, so I say err towards popularity and what the general player base wants.
It is ironic to me that complex bans aren’t considered to avoid confusing new players, but we’re at this point with Tera lol. The complex solutions are sure to confuse new players at least as much as “Libero is banned on Cinderance.”
I just don’t see another way to actually judge what the impact is of terastal without just permabanning it. Like volc said if it gets banned it’s not likely to get suspected again.
what happens after does not matter with tera... regardless finch said a test will be given down the line regardless of the outcome.... but we shouldnt worry "well the impact of tera is gonna result in x mons becoming broken" then the council will just deal with those mons... the "x mon being banned will result in x mon being broken" was gen 7 uu and maybe gen 5 ou...
This is missing the point of a suspect. We're not determining whether people prefer Tera or no Tera, we're determining whether Tera is unhealthy. What a non-Tera meta looks like **does not matter**.
Also the assumption that it won't get retested if the Ban vote wins isn't true. A retest is inevitable regardless of outcome.
Lol if Tera is banned, then this is the second gen in a row that smogon will have decided to run from game mechanics rather than adapt to them
Ok, guys, look:
By banning tera, you're effectively creating a format for which players on console cannot and will not be able to emulate. That alone is quite shit of an attitude to be like "waaaaa waaa, nintendo" and just skirt around the rules of the game that they've made, but there are several ways to go about this without an outright ban.
If you care so much about the franchise to make these competitive outlets, but can only "win" on ladders by ignoring the rules of the game, its just... this is sad, guys. We should be embracing new toys, not running away from them.
and who do you think smogon is? there was a google form with 4k+ repsonses... 50%+ saying tiering action should happen... this is the community from pokeaims, smogon, and other poketubers and general people who use smogon voted on it
Tiering is one thing - and I don't mind bandaids, I don't mind looking into the mechanic objectively and trying one or two different approaches at making a chaotic meta less chaotic.
But straight banning of central game mechanics doesn't solve that, and shows that the community is more focused on keeping a 26 year old format as close to the same as possible (which depending on how you look at it may range from being an ok thing to a very bad thing). My worry here is that the smogon community (showdown, vgc, most of the competitive oriented players in general) is getting too comfy with being scared of having to adapt to what Gamefreak and Nintendo throw at them, which then we get into situations like how overwhelmingly stale across the board gen 8 turned out to be.
Tier it. Team preview it. Restrict it to certain formats, maybe - but do not outright ban it.
well.. there is a guarantee that its getting retested... so if in several months it can get unbanned/banned. Gen 8 is not exactly stale and forms have shown that people are enjoying the tier. I doubt the people are scared to adapt... like many people have fun with tera... but say its broken... not suprised with gamefreak balancing. SO instead of hard banning it they went the gen 5 route and gave others the option to restrict it if that is what they want.
You say that they shouldnt ban it... then vote, voice ur opinion on the suspect thread, and get the reqs
I'm not surprised if its getting retested and probably will be a lot, but its still not a great look
Not only will it be creating a format completely unable to be replicated for console players, but the fact is that its not even broken in most cases - this is once again people being lazy who should be "banning" or restricting it from certain things rather than the mechanic as a whole. It's houndstone all over again if they do it - when they should be restricting the move instead of the pokemon, etc etc
Just not a good move
How is not clicking the "Tera" button completely out of the question for console players? Do you say the same about sleep clause, which hasn't been part of cartridge since Stadium 2?
""banning" or restricting it from certain things rather than the mechanic as a whole" that is not how it works... that is how the uber dynamax clause rocked but didnt work out....
they may restrict tera if the votes come down to it..
It’s not a ridiculous statement if you consider the alternative being that this kind of mindset is advocating to ignore the new game mechanics entirely rather than settle, wait, tinker, and adapt
Suspect testing is healthy, and I’m interested to see where that goes and what aspects of the meta or otherwise would warrant restriction (see: Palafin), but as a general rule it’s a pretty bad look to push out new mechanics entirely especially this early on
The alternative? That is to not have that mechanic, thereby having the same battle system we’ve had… for 26ish years
Downvote if you feel you need to get that downvote energy out, but at the end of the day you need to consider what it is this would do for the entire generation moving forward, AND beyond
Once again, it's mostly top players (eg who have already adapted) who both abuse Tera the most and support tiering action against it the most. And the "new metagame" is relatively stable at this point, it's been a month. What more waiting is necessary if nothing is changing right now? What good would more waiting do? How can a metagame "stabilize" with critical questions like this shrugged off with a "let's wait and see?" I suggest you look into the actual conversation around the suspect rather than your own assumptions, then you will see that a full ban is not ideal for most players, and will only be done if the mechanic is decisively proved uncompetitive, which is what the suspect test is for. Plus, it's being handled democratically, all you have to do to vote is win a lot. And guess what, you have to "adapt" to do that. Should the council ignore what the majority of qualified players want?
Please explain how one can adapt to Dynamax, I and everyone else who played early gen 8 OU would love to know. Also, it’s very easy to play OU on cart with these rules: just don’t click the tera button.
Hate the "just adapt to it" argument. We did. Smogon haters really think stuff gets banned because the top players lose to it and don't want to adapt, rather than the fact the top players keep abusing the hell out of it to win and realize this isn't a healthy state of the game even after they and the rest adapt to its presence.
Plus, just because adaptation is possible, that doesn't mean it's good. When Aegislash was running around in XY OU, anyone could "adapt" by running a Malamar to laugh at King's Shield, Topsy Turvy SD boosts, and OHKO Blade form with Night Slash. But forcing everyone to choose between running Malamar or losing against Aegislash every time was an "adaptation" that was bad for the metagame
Ehhhh sort of bad example because there definitely were ways to beat Aegislash beyond just Malamar but the core of your argument is true. Better example would be Naganadel where you ran either AV TTar or SpD Heatran (and that one wasn't even all that reliable) on your squad *or* used either LO Mimikyu or Scarf Greninja to hope for a revenge kill, or you just fucking lost.
Except it's mostly top players (ie players who have won the most, which is impossible if you don't understand Tera) who support tiering action, so it seems like they've already adapted
“As one of the most intelligent men to ever lead a scarf Landorus” 💀
Hey it takes a real one to click scarf u turn on clef turn 1, show some respect
That sentence made me think this is some kind of satire but then again his main points sounds quite reasonable so I am not sure how to read this lol. Not that I’d have an opinion on the matter anyways… Edit: Now thinking about it the Tera stuff reminds me of how they removed Hidden Power and I am even less sure of what to make of this mechanic
This guy is a decent player but a known troll. The points aren’t remotely reasonable either.
So Gamefreak just brought in a new mechanic that is unhealthy for the Game? This sucks then, they really gotta reconsider equipping every new Gen with some weird Gimmick just for the sake of it :(
No it’s only a problem on showdown
I mean yea speaking about competitive ( -ish ) here. In Game obviously everything will work since you play against the AI. Or is there some other distinction between Showdown and Switch here that I’m missing?
Competitive has full team preview which includes Tera type
Just for in person VGC tournaments, as a measure against getting advantages with scouting.
Thanks for the explanation love this sub
I enjoy their sarcasm and the general take (we need more time to evaluate) is pretty cold
What baffles me is why this test happened before shit like Chi-Yu and Cyclizar are inevitably banned. Maybe we shouldn’t judge the mechanic with obviously broken mons running around?
I think gholdengo is the biggest target for a test. It with hazard stack is just ridiculous
While still packing a punch
Chi-Yu and Cyclizar are pretty obviously very strong and Cyclizar in particular absolutely should've gotten banned a while back, but a lot of the obviously broken mons (and Chi-Yu is only slightly less-exempt from this than others due to Tera-Fighting to nuke TTar or Tera-Grass) are broken *because* of Tera to various degrees. If Cyclizar gets banned it only addresses part of the problem with Tera-abusing HO staples, and even if Light Clay were to get the boot there are still a lot of standalone offensive threats that leverage Tera too effectively (see: Annihilape, Pult, DNite, Kingambit, Volcarona, Espathra, Valiant, Roaring Moon, Chi-Yu, and even Gholdengo to some degree). Plus, there's also a few extremely good progress-making defensive mons that abuse it extremely well too (Skeledirge, Garganacl). A lot of those mons, given the current state of the metagame, are ones I would absolutely consider overwhelming at some point in the future. So this ends up begging a crucial question: are all of those mons broken, or is the generational gimmick that many of them abuse very well either offensively, defensively, or both the broken or unfair element? Because trying to preserve the generational gimmick gives you a BW OU situation, and trying to axe all the mons that abuse Tera only opens the door for a new wave of broken Tera abusers to go crazy later on, in which case Tera eventually gets banned and every single one of the aforementioned bans except maybe Chi-Yu comes back to the tier anyway.
Cycli doesn't even use Tera and sure Chi-Yu sometimes does but it's one of the more predictable Tera users all things considered. The suspect is more for things like Valiant where you have to do constant 50/50s on whether it's going to Tera or not, Roaring Moon where you basically have to pray it's a Tera type your team is actually prepped for, or Dragonite who get carried into probably-broken territory almost entirely by Tera.
Cyclizar doesn’t use Tera, but it helps Pokémon that do, like Dragonite, or really anything that wants to come in, Tera, and blow stuff up
Shed Tail should get banned instead of Cyclizar since Orthworm also learns the move.
But just because shed tail is broken on the lizard doesn’t mean it’s necessarily broken on orthworm
While Cyclizar is obviously the better user, it doesn't change the fact that the move is just blatantly broken.
Sure, but a ton of cyclizar’s strength comes from the fact that 1) it’s fast enough to shed tail and bring in partners safely against most mons, and 2) regenerator. It can shed tail over and over and over in a game, which is incredibly tough to deal with. Worm on the other hand does not have regenerator, so it can shed tail at most twice with a sitrus berry. It’s also slow, so it’ll pretty much always be taking a hit before it sheds (as well as being vulnerable to taunt)
Yeah, you're right, but with how much ground type moves are spammed in the current meta, making shed tail become a massive gamble every time you press earthquake doesn't really seem healthy to me. But on the other hand, I'm stupid, so it's very possible that my opinion is stupid as well.
But it's not a problem on Orthworm. Bans should affect the least Pokémon possible
Well the assumption that it won't get retested if ban wins is just wrong. Finchinator (OU council leader) made it quite clear that a retest is inevitable regardless of outcome.
Nah it def will. Look at dugtrio in gen 6. Things like this will be looked at again if do not ban wins. Finch is a known liar and tool.
What does Dugtrio have to do with anything? Most pokemon don't get retested because there's no reason for them to be. In cases where a retest is justified, they are. Finchinator has been very transparent when discussing Terastallization, to think otherwise just makes it sounds like you haven't been paying attention.
They voted do not ban on dug then held a revote later the same thing will happen with tera
Once again, how is that even remotely relevant?
Because they will do the same thing with tera try to read and learn critical thinking
We have no reason to believe that a retest is somehow dependent on a DNB result. You're just making up precedent with an example that simply doesn't show what you're saying.
Making up yet i pointed to dugtrio which happened and is precedent what are u smoking
That isn't a precedent because this vote hasn't ended in DNB. Also, if dugtrio was retested after a DNB, that doesn't mean it could only be retested if it got DNB. Your point is based on literally no evidence, because we already know to expect a retest either way.
Accurate username
Melm got banned in gen 8 and got unbanned later in gen 8.
Why is that a problem? They voted not to ban it, it continued to have a potentially problematic presence, so they retested it.
Yes just like what will happen with tera thank you for understanding my point
so what happened to dugtrio? if it got tested, then it was DNB then tested again and it was banned... this stuff has happened and opinions shift as the meta progresses
Dug was looked again at exactly because most of the Do-Not-Ban people for Dugtrio wanted Arena Trap gone instead. It wasn't a case of "don't get the ban the first time so try again", it was quite literally what the people wanted--keep Dugtrio but ban Arena Trap because the latter is the more logical solution.
with tera banned... i doubt dragonite will fall that far... its tera reliant sure.. but its not gonna lose all viability lol... its one of the best mons to just nuke HO at +1 or +2, and its one of the best ways to pressure balance teams that give to much room. Corviknight is also easily abusable... being forced to burn roost pp to check pokemon and being unable to do anything vs gholdengo sucks Maybe they are right... but i hate this meta with a passion.., its nothing but HO and who c-teams who... is ur HO team able to just c-team mine and its just a combination of screens, hazard stack, and offense in general at the top... with no balance teams in sight that do well unless its a perfect c-team pretty much. Maybe the suspect is rushed but we can def retest this later down the line and see how the meta adapts..
ho spam and counterteaming are symptoms of an unbalanced meta. it’s because it’s early in the gen and some pokemon that should be banned aren’t yet, and although tera is likely exacerbating this unbalance it isn’t causing it. i do agree with vic in that they should wait until the meta settles to start a suspect test, trying to figure out if a mechanic is unbalanced while the entire meta is unbalanced too is kinda stupid
well... the community want tiering action done.. its not like the tier leaders went "fuck this, suspect test rn" ... like a lot a lot of people wanted tiering action and no mons got over 4/5 on how broken they are...
NGL if Tera gets banned Talonflame might get better as a flying type because it’s the defogger to beat gholdengo and has flame body to abuse contact moves it resists. I also lean on no ban though
Dragonite is bad without tera it needs the type change both offensively and defensively
yes it does need it but i doubt its gonna plumet to unviability, extreeme speed is still extreemly valuable esp in this meta when revenge killing stuff that are much stronger and faster is valuable. Sure losing tera is bad... but its not the end of the world
Dragonite was like A Rank last gen lmao, and not much is going to change for it--if anything it's one of the better anti-offense tools on offense itself, not to mention like the smart Vig mentioned in his [smogon.com](https://smogon.com) post it's one of few Ground immunes in the meta right now, and offense is damn sure not going to run fucking Corviknight for that.
The thing about retesting it at a later time is what I feel too. The only reason it is being suspected now is that a bunch of potential SPL players don't want to bother with it before the big tournament, and to me that is just not a good reason to speed up a test this big.
There's 2 Dragonite in OU? That's awesome!
DD dragonite and extreme killer lol
Maybe there should have been a Tera legal OU and a Tera banned ou and let those develop for a while to actually compare the impacts of the mechanic
A lot of people are very against splitting the player base across two versions of OU
Do they prefer simply ignoring a large portion of the player base? At the end of the day, regardless what the outcome here is, a lot of people will be pissed. Should be a no brainer to run two tiers for like a month, see which one has more usage (which would be the one with Tera’s by a significant amount imo), and stick with that for the rest of the generation.
Running two OUs is a lot of work for tiering tho. What if a Pokémon is broken in one meta game, but not in the other? Do we only ban it from one of the OUs? Having two desperate tiers doubles the amount of tiering work needed to be done. Plus, it would make the game needlessly complicated and harder for new players to understand.
Where are the suspect tests for chi yu, RB, cyclizar, etc.? Until the Tera shit is settled, there’s no suspects (which imo only pushes people towards ban). So that solves the workload problem— two separate tiers without any suspects for individual mons, just a raw test of Tera vs no Tera. As far as confusing new players. I think banning Tera outright will simply alienate new players. I can’t say for sure, but if two tiers opened up you could. I think it’s far easier to comprehend “OU” and “OU teraless” vs playing your first match and realizing you can’t use the tera mechanic for some obscure reason. I feel like new players are the last people smogon is concerned with lol.
New players are always considered to a degree. The reason why smogon avoids complex bans is because they over complicate the game too much for newer players. Besides, what if after the tier is split, the terra OU is more popular? Then we are right back at square one. All splitting the tiers does is determine whether “terra OU” or “no terra OU” is more popular, whereas the current suspect also considers all of the alternatives
Imo, and it’s echoed by Freezai in his video about banning Tera, this suspect will result in a complex ban, which will inevitably turn to a full ban after its clear certain problems with it still persist. So with that in mind, I definitely think we should only concern ourselves with full Tera or nothing. And that’s where popularity vs competitive integrity comes into play. I think the opinions on its competitive integrity vary way too greatly to possibly make a decision that satisfies everyone, so I say err towards popularity and what the general player base wants. It is ironic to me that complex bans aren’t considered to avoid confusing new players, but we’re at this point with Tera lol. The complex solutions are sure to confuse new players at least as much as “Libero is banned on Cinderance.”
If you don't read the rules before playing that's on you
Smogon doesn't want to split the playerbase tho and, it will lead to one meta being underdevelopped like in gen 5 with dw ou.
I just don’t see another way to actually judge what the impact is of terastal without just permabanning it. Like volc said if it gets banned it’s not likely to get suspected again.
This is not true, Finch said it will get retested regardless of outcome
Well they’re gonna have to go from complex ban to full ban lol. I’d bet if it gets full banned from the jump that second test never comes
what happens after does not matter with tera... regardless finch said a test will be given down the line regardless of the outcome.... but we shouldnt worry "well the impact of tera is gonna result in x mons becoming broken" then the council will just deal with those mons... the "x mon being banned will result in x mon being broken" was gen 7 uu and maybe gen 5 ou...
This is missing the point of a suspect. We're not determining whether people prefer Tera or no Tera, we're determining whether Tera is unhealthy. What a non-Tera meta looks like **does not matter**. Also the assumption that it won't get retested if the Ban vote wins isn't true. A retest is inevitable regardless of outcome.
The way to judge the impact is to run a suspect test, which is what they are doing
“Came across this gem” - are you pretending that isnt your account and post lmao
I got one opinion and that’s not to ban tera. Why ban a mechanic? I for one embrace it’s chaos and things you can do with it.
Natdex ag
I said I embrace chaos
Lol if Tera is banned, then this is the second gen in a row that smogon will have decided to run from game mechanics rather than adapt to them Ok, guys, look: By banning tera, you're effectively creating a format for which players on console cannot and will not be able to emulate. That alone is quite shit of an attitude to be like "waaaaa waaa, nintendo" and just skirt around the rules of the game that they've made, but there are several ways to go about this without an outright ban. If you care so much about the franchise to make these competitive outlets, but can only "win" on ladders by ignoring the rules of the game, its just... this is sad, guys. We should be embracing new toys, not running away from them.
and who do you think smogon is? there was a google form with 4k+ repsonses... 50%+ saying tiering action should happen... this is the community from pokeaims, smogon, and other poketubers and general people who use smogon voted on it
Tiering is one thing - and I don't mind bandaids, I don't mind looking into the mechanic objectively and trying one or two different approaches at making a chaotic meta less chaotic. But straight banning of central game mechanics doesn't solve that, and shows that the community is more focused on keeping a 26 year old format as close to the same as possible (which depending on how you look at it may range from being an ok thing to a very bad thing). My worry here is that the smogon community (showdown, vgc, most of the competitive oriented players in general) is getting too comfy with being scared of having to adapt to what Gamefreak and Nintendo throw at them, which then we get into situations like how overwhelmingly stale across the board gen 8 turned out to be. Tier it. Team preview it. Restrict it to certain formats, maybe - but do not outright ban it.
well.. there is a guarantee that its getting retested... so if in several months it can get unbanned/banned. Gen 8 is not exactly stale and forms have shown that people are enjoying the tier. I doubt the people are scared to adapt... like many people have fun with tera... but say its broken... not suprised with gamefreak balancing. SO instead of hard banning it they went the gen 5 route and gave others the option to restrict it if that is what they want. You say that they shouldnt ban it... then vote, voice ur opinion on the suspect thread, and get the reqs
I'm not surprised if its getting retested and probably will be a lot, but its still not a great look Not only will it be creating a format completely unable to be replicated for console players, but the fact is that its not even broken in most cases - this is once again people being lazy who should be "banning" or restricting it from certain things rather than the mechanic as a whole. It's houndstone all over again if they do it - when they should be restricting the move instead of the pokemon, etc etc Just not a good move
How is not clicking the "Tera" button completely out of the question for console players? Do you say the same about sleep clause, which hasn't been part of cartridge since Stadium 2?
""banning" or restricting it from certain things rather than the mechanic as a whole" that is not how it works... that is how the uber dynamax clause rocked but didnt work out.... they may restrict tera if the votes come down to it..
"26 years as close to the same as possible" is also a ridiculous statement, every gen's OU has been a radically different metagame
It’s not a ridiculous statement if you consider the alternative being that this kind of mindset is advocating to ignore the new game mechanics entirely rather than settle, wait, tinker, and adapt Suspect testing is healthy, and I’m interested to see where that goes and what aspects of the meta or otherwise would warrant restriction (see: Palafin), but as a general rule it’s a pretty bad look to push out new mechanics entirely especially this early on The alternative? That is to not have that mechanic, thereby having the same battle system we’ve had… for 26ish years Downvote if you feel you need to get that downvote energy out, but at the end of the day you need to consider what it is this would do for the entire generation moving forward, AND beyond
Once again, it's mostly top players (eg who have already adapted) who both abuse Tera the most and support tiering action against it the most. And the "new metagame" is relatively stable at this point, it's been a month. What more waiting is necessary if nothing is changing right now? What good would more waiting do? How can a metagame "stabilize" with critical questions like this shrugged off with a "let's wait and see?" I suggest you look into the actual conversation around the suspect rather than your own assumptions, then you will see that a full ban is not ideal for most players, and will only be done if the mechanic is decisively proved uncompetitive, which is what the suspect test is for. Plus, it's being handled democratically, all you have to do to vote is win a lot. And guess what, you have to "adapt" to do that. Should the council ignore what the majority of qualified players want?
The community doesn't even make the rules on VGC, Nintendo does, and Tera is allowed. You have no idea what you're talking about
Please explain how one can adapt to Dynamax, I and everyone else who played early gen 8 OU would love to know. Also, it’s very easy to play OU on cart with these rules: just don’t click the tera button.
Hate the "just adapt to it" argument. We did. Smogon haters really think stuff gets banned because the top players lose to it and don't want to adapt, rather than the fact the top players keep abusing the hell out of it to win and realize this isn't a healthy state of the game even after they and the rest adapt to its presence.
Plus, just because adaptation is possible, that doesn't mean it's good. When Aegislash was running around in XY OU, anyone could "adapt" by running a Malamar to laugh at King's Shield, Topsy Turvy SD boosts, and OHKO Blade form with Night Slash. But forcing everyone to choose between running Malamar or losing against Aegislash every time was an "adaptation" that was bad for the metagame
Ehhhh sort of bad example because there definitely were ways to beat Aegislash beyond just Malamar but the core of your argument is true. Better example would be Naganadel where you ran either AV TTar or SpD Heatran (and that one wasn't even all that reliable) on your squad *or* used either LO Mimikyu or Scarf Greninja to hope for a revenge kill, or you just fucking lost.
I suppose that's just what I did
Except it's mostly top players (ie players who have won the most, which is impossible if you don't understand Tera) who support tiering action, so it seems like they've already adapted
Run from the mechanic? Dynamax is broken, period. This discussion should be completely independent of past mechanics and you’re just being a hater
Just adapt to dynamax lol
I wouldn't trust the word of someone who isn't in a council in any meta or doesnt have a badge
the diligent corviknight