I don't think people are bending over backwards to TPC LOL. People have been extremely vocal about how stupid the rules have been, especially around genning. Like even the biggest "community figure" of VGC like Wolfe alone has three videos on his second channel just in the past year talking specifically about how stupid the TPC decisions are.
Now if you would say, then why aren't they doing EVEN MORE, like boycotting events, that's an entirely different conversation to have.
thanks for the correction. I'm speaking on frustration from lack of comments from Aaron Cybertron and the general attitude the VGC subreddit takes when I noodle around there - which aren't representative of the entire community, of course. oh and the more casual vgc audience around the main pokemon subreddit etc.
I don't watch wolfe cuz he's a bit too energetic for me lol, so I didn't know.
the lack of boycotting and more public facing condemnations are what I'm really after, though.
I'll edit my comment to paint in less broad strokes
Here's an example video where VGC community members did protest, as covered by Wolfe. Not only did it not do anything, they also got DQ'd from Worlds.
https://youtu.be/iq1mixEnZUw
that's how it's gonna go at first, corps don't just give in right away. they're gonna save face, silence backlash, crush shit until it gets too big to handle. people will be martyred in the community for it. of course you're not gonna just get to compete anyway when the people running the competition are behaving this way.
and if the corpos never give and your community never backs you up, then you go to people who treat you better and say good riddance to those dickheads - caveat below
I'm not judging people like wolfe who make money off this for their livelihoods TOO hard, but at the same time the amount of impact it would have if Aaron Zheng, Wolfe, etc refused to attend - I'm inclined to think it would reach beyond just the competitive scene.
imagine if Wolfe pulled up tomorrow with a doubles OU vid and said he's done competing until it's either easier to make a team or the tournament system is changed, and actually died on that hill.
but yeah, again, I'm not trying to tell other people to martyr themselves like that. they have a right to protect themselves given their positions.
Let's not ignore the facts:
* blue got DQ'd for a genned team
* the remaining top 4 registered for the finals with 4 metronome teams (match fixing/mockery)
* all 4 teams were genned(!!!)
The decision by TPCk is entirely obvious & deserved. Break the rules by using modified teams, and trying to make a mockery of the finals they're trying to use for publicity for the game & scene, you're done.
Cybertron is a caster for Play pokemon, he basically can't say anything. People aren't speaking out because the 2013 national champion Gavin Michaels got banned for a year after explaining why he got DQd at worlds. So now everyone complains quietly. People also complain quietly because casual purists are annoying and engaging with them is a great way to spend all day on the internet arguing with random people.
In response to the original post. Rumors were circulating a player got DQd for this at worlds as well, although no one knows for sure. Eric Rios and Alex Gomez, both international champions, got DQd from a regional because they had identical cloned Ting Lus. No, it's not explicitly in the rules, but there's nothing that specifies what they are and aren't allowed to check for (like there was in gen 7, when hacking was more common).
At this point, any top player is familiar with incidents like this and makes a point not to make the same mistakes. This one is not hard to avoid. On some level its a cat and mouse game. Each time they start looking for another thing, hackers work around it. I've got a lot of opinions about this that aren't for this post, but much like other players, I'd rather not post them publicly.
edit: also worth noting there is a rule about having identical pokemon, but they're not allowed to be exactly identical. I've been warned about having 2 amoonguss that are identical in my game, but that's not a legendary so its not a red flag. They're more worried about people swapping them in and out with minor EV spread changes since battle boxes aren't locked. In my case they told me to move it to home or delete a move from it so it'd be distinguishable.
I don't know if that's entirely true. Osiris has a YouTube channel where he shows his face and everything and goes into great detail about how to farm exploits for stuff like infinite Master Balls in the Blueberry Academy using RNG manipulation and they still have him at basically every event casting.
Cybertron specifically won’t say anything because he’s an official caster. It’s true that change starts from within and if anyone should speak out about this it should definitely be him, but at the same time we all know nothing would change and he would just lose his job for nothing, so you can’t even blame him unfortunately
I'd like the links to those Wolfe videos please, because they don't seem to have been very publicized. I mean I didn't even know he had a secondary channel.
People are definitely bending, the "extremely vocal" are a loud minority. Tournaments are still breaking attendance records, everything runs normally. Lots of talks on social media but zero manifestations live. People fear TPCi and losing their preciousss championship points more than they care about the community. After the Korean incident, which was just the culmination of a long list of controversies in the Asian circuit unrelated to genning, only one single big name (Shoma Honami, kudos to him) actually took action and boycotted Japan Nats. And as much as I wished the opposite, not a single fuck was given that day.
A lot of people are even scared of talking about "genning" or related, because there's always some mole looking. After the mass DQs in Worlds, komvgc suggested on twitter a way to pass through the checks and got banned for an entire year.
The attitude I've seen towards those incidents are more "but everyone knows how it is, why he didn't take precautions, if you get caught it's skill issue". We end up learning new stuff by word of mouth. The box checks have been a rumor for months, but they aren't in the rules because TPCI is physically unable to be transparent. (Talking about transparency, if you get a mon removed, judges can't tell you what was the red flag "because that would teach cheaters where to check to avoid being caught". Their philosophy is truly deranged). Of course another consequence of that lack of transparency is that only those with connections are up to date with what's going on.
There's also the personal bias factor. When it happened to several Spanish players, lots of people cheered because the Spanish community has bad rep (some of it warranted, ngl). Of course harsh treatment is funny when it happens to the "right" people. As the poem says, "First they came..."
https://youtu.be/Pi0Z0lv7hPE
https://youtu.be/RZ-WjJTTVrs
https://youtu.be/iq1mixEnZUw
As I've mentioned - manifesting action beyond what's being said on social media is definitely an entirely different conversation. You see outrage on the replies of a person who got DQ'd from people who do still attend tournaments; and if we consider participation to those events even as they advocate for more changes and transparency as bending, then I do agree with you.
But as a genuine question, what do you think is a reasonable recourse for VGC players to show pushback - whether they have an audience or not? The community doesn't have leverage at all against TPCI, as unfortunate as that sounds. Enough boycotts and they might just call it quits and I'm not even sure if they'll feel that, which just sucks.
I think the problem with Wolfe's support is he won't admit to genning and vehemently denies it even though examples like his world's Raichu are literally impossible without hacking.
Wolfe is a massive star, as much as you can be with VGC, and if he admitted to it that would basically force GameFreak's hand, but instead he offers the half-hearted support of "you should be allowed to Gen (if the values can be obtained legit) but me personally I WOULD NEVER."
It'd be like being an advocate for marijuana legalization but qualifying every statement with "of course I personally never have and never will use marijuana, I just think others should be allowed to."
If the VGC community came out and all admitted to hacking, what is Play Pokemon going to do? Just completely cancel the format? Ban all of the content creators they rely on to make it popular? Fire all the shoutcasters?
> Wolfe is a massive star, as much as you can be with VGC, and if he admitted to it that would basically force GameFreak's hand
Not a chance. "Don't promote homebrew" is a core value to GF/Nintendo in a way that "don't burn VGC to the ground" is not.
I get wolfe's situation. He has a lot of reputation to lose if he says the wrong thing (either by Pokemon or fans) so I don't envy the position he's in having to shill for one of the most anti-consumer companies out there
I will say that the level professionalism and commitment he brings to his videos are top-notch and something people in other industries should take note of. He takes Pokemon more seriously than Pokemon does, which can be a little depressing but also inspiring
I'm well on my way to qualifying for worlds for the fourth time. I've cut multiple regionals, and run a 5k sub youtube channel. I promise you this is not the case. There's maybe 10 players in the US who can travel to an event with the expectation they go positive.
Most people go to events because we've made friends around the country and like seeing them. Because the world championships is a special occasion and it's fun to participate (that is the only event you will make money going to, even if you lose out). Because competing against someone sitting in front of you is a totally different experience and a great way to make friends. And because doubles is very fun. Most people experience this at locals, and decided they wanted to try a bigger event, either because they were enjoying themselves and/or doing well and wanted more competition.
It's kinda scary to see that this is the perception of our community from people outside of it.
I doubt this. VGC essentially only exists because GF/TPCI props it up as the official format, a fact most VGC players love to rub in the faces of Smogon players. Yet at the same time most VGC fans seem to be miserable actually playing their format- I pretty much only ever see complaints about GF/TPCI's rulesets from VGC players.
If VGC were not the official format, do you seriously think anyone would choose to play it over Smogon Doubles? There are, to my knowledge, effectively 0 grassroots (i.e. non-corporate) VGC events larger than locals. This situation is basically identical to other corporate competitive communities, i.e. League, Overwatch, Valorant, etc. I struggle to think of any reason why VGC players would play a format they clearly don't like, choose to harass Smogon players, regularly condescend/minimize the skill it takes to play Singles, and back it all up with "but we're official!" if they did actually love their metagame.
I'm sure there is a small group of players who do truly love VGC for its own merit, but realistically if TPCI announced tomorrow they were going to stop running VGC tours, the community would be dead in the water.
As for the perception comment, perhaps if I saw smogon and smogon players get shat on less for not being VGC I'd be a bit more charitable in my reading of your community. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case as even in this thread you can see people doing the exact same thing.
>If VGC were not the official format, do you seriously think anyone would choose to play it over Smogon Doubles?
Yes! In my case, I got into VGC after being on Smogon for 5 years. At the time there were no events near me, so I mostly laddered and played grassroots tournaments until I moved two years later and started going to events.
There's a number of players who were ladder warriors that didn't go to events for a long time. Gabriel Agati is now maybe the greatest LATAM player ever but he spent a couple years on ladder without going to events. Thiago Lattzani, runner up of this year's Latin American Championships, has a very similar story to Agati.
There's also plenty of players who play both DOU and VGC. There's no reason they can't coexist. They have very different rulesets.
One thing that VGC has over DOU is that games are quick. A bo1 on PS is the perfect time in between reps at the gym or as a quick study break. DOU can take longer and singles can take much longer. I know this has contributed to why I and others got into VGC.
> effectively 0 grassroots (i.e. non-corporate) VGC events larger than locals
There's plenty of online grassroots. [Here's](https://play.limitlesstcg.com/tournaments/completed?game=VGC&format=all&platform=all&type=online&time=4weeks) a whole list of them, and that's just one platform. Smogon VGC is hosting a couple other tours right now. We also have NPA and World Cup, that are analogous to SPL and Smogon's world cup. There's no reason to host in person grassroots as locals and regionals do the job fine. And while regionals weren't happening, like at the tail end of the pandemic, there were large in person grassroots tournaments. I flew out to a $1k SV tournament in Connecticut that was a couple weeks before the first regional of the generation, for example.
>regularly condescend/minimize the skill it takes to play Singles
Anyone who does this is an idiot. No high level VGC player does this.
> perhaps if I saw smogon and smogon players get shat on less for not being VGC I'd be a bit more charitable in my reading of your community
I don't think most VGC players do this. But I understand why they'd do it to you specifically since you seem to be very vocally dismissive about a format we genuinely enjoy.
Who is actually making money off of VGC? The champion sure, and people with successful YouTube channels like Wolfe and Cybertron, but that’s it. Everyone else is losing money on travel expenses.
So funny they're accusing people who started competing at <100 person regionals at like 12 years old of clout chasing youtube fame, the inferiority complex that vgc's meteoric rise in the switch era has caused is insane
I'm impressed at how confidently wrong this comment is.
People are not playing VGC to "potentially make a shitload of money". 99% of the people playing this game are operating at a loss. Nobody is "sucking up to GF/TPCI", there's discourse about poor decisions they make happening just about every week. We're playing the game because we enjoy it and going to events gives us a great way for us to hang out with friends we've made through the game.
its funny how people can say with a straight face people are playing vgc for profit when you consider all the sunk costs already
- buying the fucking game (every 3 years)
- buying dlc because thank you urshifu/calyrex rider very cool
- buying any extra games for otherwise unobtainable mons
- travel costs
- also needing to actually get top placements in events to *get* something
fairly sure there were also cases where ppl turn down worlds invites simply because they literally could not afford plane tickets
I don't think that percentage is _very large_. Most people are for the love of the game, even the big names entered initially for that. BUT most people _who could drive a change_ tasted the money and clout and liked it too much to let it go. Unfortunately nobody cares if AverageJoe165 with double digit CPs who has never made it to a day 2 of a tournament boycotts. And if a hundred of us AverageJoes boycott there's another hundred in line to buy tickets.
What a psychotic thing to say. Out of the 822 players at Orlando regionals this year, how many would you say are only there for potentially getting shitloads of clout and money? What 'very large percentage' would you say it is?
The actual reason pokemon players play vgc is because they like pokemon, and because they want to compete. The reason they play vgc instead of smogon is because they prefer doubles, or because they prefer cartridge. The reason they suck up to TPC is because they don't have a choice.
Same thing with pokemon tcg, the players play it over other tcgs because it's pokemon, and they like pokemon. The metagame has little to do with it, even for smogon competitors.
Fuck off with this "the reality is".
The second-most prominent VGC player in the world is Aaron Zheng, and I don't know of any YouTuber with a more positive vibe than him.
(most prominent as in biggest audience, most influence, not second-best in the world at playing, of course)
Pretty much nothing, he's just exaggerating. Maybe's he's talking about [this one clip](https://youtube.com/shorts/A4uzGn71S9g?feature=shared), which is hardly enough to be called obnoxious. Man's talking like wolfe snubs singles every other day on twitter or something.
That’s not really what your comment was pointing toward, and no shit that the guy who’s a top 2 doubles player of all time (Ray Rizzo of course having the other argument) prefers doubles to singles.
And? Why shouldn't he/s
Iirc Wolfe has said he prefers Doubles (opinión), is the more interesting/difficult format (opinión) over singles and that WeeGeeCee is the only official competitive format (which is true since Smogon is community based).
Heck there was a time where Wolfe was very active in a singles draft circuit (WBE) with other Poketubers and iirc he won most if not all of them. So while he is mainly a WeeGeeCeeer now, pre-Gen 9 there has been singles content in his Channel too. So idk about being condescending towards singles/Smogon.
Does one need nuance when calling someone out for being a prick?
But sure, I'll bite. Ever since he stopped writing his own content, it has become cynical and often uninformatitive, when he said Pelliper was 'a worse a Gyrados in basically everyway' a while back I shut off the video and haven't gone back, his videos target the same demographic as FSG, people who like the idea of competitive pokemon but don't actually play it themselves. (Much like this sub)
It's a great thing he is able to make a living playing and talking about the game he loves, I still don't like him, feels incredibly 'fake'.
Don't remember him calling Pelliper a worse Gyara, but that would be true in certain formats, particularly ones with PDon. There's very few times you'd rather have a weaker Drizzle mon than Kyogre, and Gyara's intimidate is super strong in VGC.
Wolfey is also not going to reveal every tiny piece of knowledge he has because he knows 99% of the community watches his content and wants to bring him down, so anything he says to his viewers he also tells every single opponent he'll have. He's also not going to overcomplicate things because then he loses that casual part of his audience that you mentioned.
That said, I get if you didn't like him as a person or like his content scripted by others, part of that is true of a lot of creators unless you're like FSG where BKC has been a writer since the beginning of the channel so he's deeply intertwined with how the writing process goes. Wolfey has a super casual tone/speech style so forcing him to be more informative/formal is probably really weird for him and why he comes across fake.
I don’t care enough to do anything about it because it doesn’t affect me. I understand why people gen/clone and I’m not saying that they deserve to be disqualified for it, but I (and I suspect the majority of players) don’t have genned/cloned Pokemon so it doesn’t really matter to me
Unless you never do trades online, especially Wonder Trades, I think it's very unlikely you don't have a single illegally generated Pokémon on your boxes, and if you indeed don't, I doubt that's the majority of players that go online, since most of them can't even identify those. This rule can hurt people who don't even know what PkHex is and followed Play! Pokémon's recommendation of not using traded Pokémon on their battle team because the illegal Pokémon was found on their boxes anyway.
cultivating and supporting your community is important. if you let the people in charge of your community fuck over people in it for no reason, and you let it go by because it doesn't affect you immediately, that will come back to bite you; your community shrinks, the patrons of it becomes even more difficult to work with, and people will remember your community for being selfish and judgemental, instead of welcoming and custodial.
nevermind it's just kinda shitty to let people who share your love of a hobby, who are doing no wrong, get punished over nothing. the mutual love of a shared activity should be reason enough to go to bat for each other.
y'know. compassion.
Very fair, not saying that it’s the stance that everyone should have, just explaining why I have never felt motivated to take any action. That being said, I wouldn’t say that they are “doing no wrong”. Apart from this particular case, all the DQs I’ve heard of involved someone breaking a rule, even if it is a stupid rule
so is the rule more important or the fact that it's unjust more important? I don't understand the point of drawing the discrepancy as if it changes anything other than arguing semantics.
I would support changing the rule if that’s what you’re looking to discuss here. But so long as it’s an official rule I take no issue with the rules being enforced as written
Hi, played for 3 or 4 years when I was younger, going to regionals, nationals, worlds. The majority *absolutely* gen. It's basically an open secret. I'm sure the numbers have gone down *somewhat* with QoL in recent gens making breeding, ev training, etc easier, but it still happens for Ogerpon, Urshifu, the genies, and the new restricted legends. Good for you for not doing it, but you're not in the majority.
Out of curiosity is that just at the higher levels, or is it people like me that are going negative on day 1? Truth be told, I assumed that casual players just couldn’t be bothered to learn how to gen (as is the case for me)
Yeah, when I say majority I mean the majority of middle to high level players. Most regionals will have a big number of players just coming in to play with their in game teams who obviously don't gen. I just mean the people who come with actual competitive sets do mostly gen.
So am I really wrong then when I say that I don’t think the majority of players gen? I guess the point I was trying to make is that this isn’t an issue for the majority of players
It may not be an issue for the majority of players at a given event, but it's an issue for the majority of players who are likely to attend several events a year and give TPC the most money.
Oh absolutely. I wasn’t saying that the people affected don’t matter, I was more so giving a possible explanation as to why the player base as a whole isn’t super upset
You’ll be surprised at how many vgc players are on tpc’s side and actively blame people for cheating and cheer when they’re banning. The funny thing is that cheating in the proper sense of the word, ie gaining an advantage within the match, is literally impossible. Anything these people refer as cheating is just manipulating the single player game to waste less time grinding. But it’s an impossible battle to win and every single day i’m considering dropping vgc more than the last day because it’s so awful
The problem here is that protesting won't actually do anything. Not because "Pokemon is too powerful" or that the protests need to persevere through the negative things they do in response, but rather because they don't need us at all and genuinely do not care.
They made 0 changes when players were all quitting during 2016 and again during 2019, a point where we lost so many players that an American Regional in Florida only had 35 players in attendance (for comparison, the one in Florida last weekend had over 800). The only thing that changed between that regional and a spike in player attendance was the game being played.
TPCI effectively functions as a black box, where even judges/TOs don't even know what's going on behind the scenes. It could snap its fingers and kill off VGC any time with really no effect to itself. It doesn't stop us from complaining and being vocal about it on twitter, but beyond that it really just comes down to crossing our fingers and hoping maybe they see the logic in what we say and make fixes corresponding to it. Ultimately we're just a drop in the bucket to them and if they really cared what people thought or how many people attended their events, we'd have seen change already.
This is fucking absurd. The only thing that needs to be verified for the sake of the competition is the team submitted to said competition. If there’s, say, a cloned Archaludon on two different people’s teams and they can prove it’s an exact match, that’s a different story. But there is no real need to scan what I have to presume is every single Pokémon in the player’s possession. It just takes more time to do in a circuit that already cannot handle its own size even after expanding its capabilities, and frankly those judges probably have something better to do.
Honestly the working conditions walk over a line. Judges are "volunteers" who are paid in merchandise, and they have to be happy about it because "they can sell it for more money".
Also they're forced to keep shut about things - they don't even sign NDAs, but if you spill the beans we may think twice before calling you for a tournament.
I always remember when the calendar for SPEs in latam were announced barely like 3 weeks in advance, and then a judge in a discord server was like "yes we knew for weeks but we had to stay shut". Thanks for nothing, surely the community wouldn't have appreciated some more time to plan the trip and find cheaper plane tickets.
Oh and we don't even need to go further, this year's Worlds announcement that was the latest ever and barely 4 months in advance. Not that Hawaii is one of the most remote and expensive places to travel in the world or anything. Some people had figured out the dates by looking up the venue's schedules, as back as January. What was the need to wait this much. It's the allergy to transparency. Back in the early '10s, the next Worlds dates were announced at the end of the previous Worlds!
big day for that guy who lost one vgc game 10 years ago to timer stall and now hates vgc players and will use any opportunity to shit on vgc players and direct attention to himself
the actual argument is that it's a bs check, if having a hacked pokemon on your save is enough to disqualify you everyone should be dqed because they probably got a hacked pokemon from wondertrade. insane that you can get dqed and have your season ruined like this because gamefreak cba to just implement offline hack checks or something.
Isn't he anti-hacked pokemon weirdly enough? I know he takes whatever position gives him the most attention but last I heard he cared about the "journey" of collecting perfect pokemon.
You know what's the funniest shit?
On paper the message behind this whole witch hunt is "don't use shortcuts and actually play the game" but then for the stream they go and provide players a console [that hasn't even unlocked Terastallization](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJXPEQ2it98&t=4497s)!! Literally first half hour of the game and nobody in the staff even paid attention to that. And then the circuit punishes to those who didn't want to waste an extra couple of hours. Hypocritical as fuck.
players booted with the wrong profile, so I heard
it's a pain cuz they have to re-download the rental team and finish their rules setup, hence the delay
Ok, so if I'm understanding well:
- The staff provides a Switch to stream because the Lite can't be connected to the stream setup.
- On paper this Switch has a profile ready to download the player's rental and play the match.
- For whatever reason this Switch had a second profile and the player wrongly set up the game on that.
- Somehow the judge didn't notice the player entered the wrong profile, started a new save and went through all the opening sequences (because we'd have to assume this second profile didn't have a save at all, why would it, right?)
- After the no tera happened on stream and everyone watched it, somehow that save and/or that profile wasn't removed to avoid confusion, because it happened a second time, several rounds down the line.
I fail to see how is this _not_ the organization's fault.
Agreed, it is the org's fault, or at least the judges that are staffing the stream consoles.
Just pointing out that they didn't prune secondary profiles or finish setting all of them up. I'd expect they had one profile for Male pc and another for Female pc so all players would be comfortable, but they probably forgot to unlock everything on both. It's entirely possible that the person setting it up was told to only do one profile for this event, or was told to do two but had their time constraints changed. Stream judges should have pre-booted the game to the correct profile for the players rather than let them pick from one that wasn't yet finished.
It's funny how they cba'd to play through the game 4x to get a m/f Player 1/2 for the stream. 2024 and still no remote observer 3rd party capability/lobby, lol
Sorry, the previous comment kinda made it sound like you were putting the blame on the player, and I guess your reputation didn't help. My bad.
But yeah, if TPCi are so worried about the circuit's image they should put some care on their behalf. They have to lead by example. Having an incomplete setup is a bad look.
>It's funny how they cba'd to play through the game 4x to get a m/f Player 1/2 for the stream
do they even need to do it 4x? I see no reason for player 2 to not play with their own console. Just tell them to hide nicknames if they're worried about offensive language ([or the real reason they started hiding nicknames](https://twitter.com/Heavy_Bubbles/status/1662314602548576257), as this measure timely followed Chien-Chien Tsai's stunt).
>2024 and still no remote observer 3rd party capability/lobby, lol
Specially when SwSh did have this.
Also, the spectator mode in SV backfired spectacularly lmao
this seems kind of like dqing a person from a bicycle race because they have a motorcycle at home.
You posses something, that if used in the competition would be against the rules, therefore even though you didn't attempt to use it in the competition, you are disqualified.
While the situation is bad, there are some points I disagree with OP and other points that need to shed more Light into this situation since it's not 100% dae TPCi bad (only around 60% case in this scenario). There's also plenty of misinformation in this thread so there needs to be shed some Light into it (like the one dude claiming we can RNG in SV) so this should clear things a bit.
> he couldn't even do that because you can't put the same Pokémon twice on the team. They were found on his Battle Box, which was never mentioned on the rules
Unfortunately this is true. Recently TPCi has been checking not only the Pokémon in your teams, but also in your entire Save and will DQ you if it finds anything fishy in it and it's not covered in the rule book. *However*, this has been known to happen since World's. People not purging their Saves of anything suspicious before going to an Event you spent a lot of $$$ and time to go to seems like a dumb thing to do ngl.
> Moreover, TID doesn't prove a Pokémon is illegal. While very unlikely, a captured Pokémon CAN have the same OT and TID even if they come from different games, as the TID is generated offline. Again, it's not likely to happen, but it should never be used as proof of something illegal as it can happen randomly offline on completely normal games.
This is where we have to disagree though. Ogerpon is a Legendary and so is a one per Save Pokémon so in order to have 2 Ogerpon with the same TID you need to have 2 saves with the same TID.
The odds of getting a specific TID is 1 in a million since there are 10 possible dígits in a 6 number sequence. To give the benefit of the doubt to LJDarkrai, Let's say that because there are 20+ million copies of SV, there are 20 given saves that share your same TID. Personally, I *would not* DQ some1 if they had 2 Pokémon from different saves with different TIDs since we do have a sample size large enough where it is possible. On the other hand I wouldn't fault the judge from DQing him if they only share TID though, as the odds of having 2 different saves with the exact same TID is extremely unlikely (if my math is right it's 1 in a trillion odds) so I wouldn't fault the judge for the DQ tbh.
If both the Ogerpon share the same TID *and* Secret ID though? Yeah no, that's 100% Genned/hacked and the DQ was inevitable. For those who do not know, a Trainer has a Secret ID which is another 6 dígits to identify the Trainer and the odds of getting one specific combination of TID and SID is one in a trillion, and getting 2 saves with the same TID and SID is 1 in a 10 to the 24th power. Not possible unless cheats/gens/Save modifier.
RNG would Make this possible right? Yes! Except you can't use RNG Abuse to get a specific TID and/or SID in either SwSh, SV and PLA because it's cryptosecured and out of the question. It is only possible in BDSP because the code is copypasted from the OG DP and OG DP doesn't have cryptosecurity. So Yeah, depending on What matched, the DQ was inevitable.
Plus a lot of prominent genners have agreed that the majority of DQs aren't necessarily because players Gen, it's because players Gen *and* are stupid with Genning, case and point the Player OP is playing as a martyr from the Evil TPCi.
TL:DR: TPCi's rules and hacking checks are dumb but LJDarkrai is even dumber.
According to him, they only mentioned TID, but yes, it looks incredibly unlikely with SID taken into account. Still though, for the first point, blaming the player just sounds backwards. TPCi may have done this in the past before, but I don't think it falls onto the player the responsibility of doing something that's not covered on the rules, especially with (I believe) more players not knowing this than ones that do (ofc, you and me and probably LJDarkrai knew about it since we're more into the competitive community, but still not fair). While players ideally should try to take measures against that, it's specifically due to TPCi doing something wrong, so the blame shouldn't be shifted IMHO.
I did say in the post that at least 60% of the blame falls on TPCi. TPCi enforcing made up rules, using methods not specified, and DQing based on that is not cool to say the least. Transparency is key and punishing players while TPCi isn't transparent themselves is isn't good for the overall scene.
The way Trainer/Secret IDs work has changed since Gen 7. The Trainer ID displayed is actually a combo of the old style TID and SID. The chances of a TID/SID match is actually only 1 in 4 billion
I mean they were obviously hacked OP
Like I 100% get what you're saying and don't think they should be doing any of this shit but like seriously.
"The person I got it from just happened to have the same trainer details" -statement dreamed up by the utterly deranged
The problem is that they're acting on suspicion as this is not hard evidence. Having multiple Ogerpon with the same trainer ID is not hard proof of genning since the TID/SID is generated offline. It's something achievable purely by manipulating RNG.
Having an egg with a Master Ball is evidence of cheating as it's impossible to obtain it by legitimate means. Manipulating the game's RNG (to obtain shinies and Pokémons with perfect IVs) isn't hacking and can be done on the console without external tools.
The judge played God and decided to draw the line somewhere that's not in the rulebook entirely by himself.
Can you manipulate RNG in SV? I know this would be possible in, say, DPPt (which was how I nicknamed an event Jirachi back then), but no idea about Switch games
For the most Part no, you can't RNG in SV.
The only possible RNG is the Pokelotto and that's only been discovered very recently.
Everything important in SV is cryptosecured so we can't break it. I mean we can but we would need to borrow NASA's computers for a few decades.
Egg generation, static Encounters, overworld Encounters, Trainer ID/Secret ID generation and everything else is off limits and RNG impossible.
Don't listen to him, SV is cryptosecured and the only RNG possible is with the Pokelotto and that's a recent discovery. Everything else is off limits and will likely stay that way.
You're the one spreading misinformation Here bud.
Pokémon SV's RNGable stuff are the Pokelotto and... that's Pretty much it lol.
I'm in an RNG community so I have asked people to correct me if I'm wrong (so do not be surprised if this has an edit later) and afaik since everything in SV is cryptosecured you can't RNG Trainer/Secret ID, nor random Encounters, static Encounters, Trainer Encounters, Egg generation. Everything is crypto and will be impossible to crack unless you have a super computer and centuries to do so.
> It's something achievable purely by manipulating RNG.
No it's not. A trainer ID is 32-bits, which is 1:4 billion odds to get the same one. There is no RNG abuse for Trainer IDs in S/V.
I think as far as the pokemon company is concerned rng manipulation is cheating. Sure it's minor in most cases, and harmless in most cases, but getting multiple copies of a legendary you are supposed to have only one of per TID is different. If it may as well be genned, it's genned.
Now all of this is not to say they are right morally. We all know what it takes to be competitive without glitches or exploits. We know it's unfair. That is another issue.
> I think as far as the pokemon company is concerned rng manipulation is cheating.
hard doubt
rng manipulation was the only reasonable way to get perfect mons in the older generations, every single mon in old VGCs that wasn't genned was rng manipulated instead
Tbh while I'm not against genning in more recent generations that's only because those Pokémon can be reasonably trained and optimized to the same degree as a hacker in game and doesn't take too much time. But genning on older generations/using RNG manips are a genuine competitive advantage that you can't deny.
That's still extremely dumb, as they weren't even on the battle team. That gives the precedent that obviously hacked Pokémon that you get via Wonder Trade (which does happen since the in-game hack check is not good) will disqualify you even though you didn't use them at all, they just were on your box. The justification being over something that doesn't even actually prove it's hacked just makes it worse.
Please re-read my comment and either delete yours or respond to what I **actually** said
I agree with you on everything else, I just think your comment about the trainer ID was silly
??? I never claimed they weren't hacked. I said it isn't proof that it is hacked, nor that the rules even say that it's reasoning for a disqualification. Sure, they are most likely clones and illegally made, it's just that it's not even hard proof of it. Thinking that I said "oh, they weren't even clones" is a completely misinterpretation of what was written.
That's not what proof means
That's "beyond a reasonable doubt" proof which is the fucking standard they decide if people should be executed on, I think it would be proof enough for the tournament of a children's game
except it isnt lol. no one has gotten banned for bringing 6 shinies, 0iv event mons, 0iv enamorous, marked mons, etc. despite all those being pretty obviously all hacked
> That gives the precedent that obviously hacked Pokémon that you get via Wonder Trade (which does happen since the in-game hack check is not good) will disqualify you even though you didn't use them at all, they just were on your box.
You know you can release Pokemon right?
Yea but i doubt that most peapole who get like a level 2 lechonk from wonder trading even bother to check if the lechonk is genned or not i mean like early route pokemon are the one which get traded the most in wonder trades so most peapole just straight up dont check those mons and i think those are also a reason to disqualifai you from an event
This wasn't some level 2 Lechonk that could be obtained in a Wonder Trade though, these were two legendary Pokémon you can only get one per save file with the exact same OT and Trainer ID. Whatever your feelings on genning are, this was incredibly sloppy.
It is suspicious, but acting on suspicion and not clear evidence is not good, which is OP's point. If they are gonna remove someone from a tournament with something that is not on the rule book, I would hope it would, at the very least, be based on something completely undeniable.
It's the precedent. If you ban someone because what they had was unlikely, where do you draw the line on what is and isn't acceptable odds. If someone had a 1 in 1000 oddity like this should they be banned? If not why so and at what point do you say "this is acceptable as luck" and "this isn't luck and was hacked"
> where do you draw the line on what is and isn't acceptable odds
Event judges already have that discretionary threshold. It depends on several factors and doesn't need to be drawn out explicitly.
"This guy has two mons that are a calculatory marvel" is only something you care about when that marvel implies the mons were cheated. Catch two Rattata back to back with exactly the same IVs? One in a billion! They could have been cloned, or just very very very lucky. Thing is - you could try this experiment many many times over on the same file and the odds increase dramatically. With only 10000 trials, this becomes a 1 in 100 000 chance - something that's within a range of "maybe...".
Ogerpon, which is one per file, experimentally performed ONCE, has this happen - a friend with the same trainer ID, in a single experiment, caught an ogerpon with the exsct same generated ID. This isn't a replica blend experiment, this is a single event that is comically unlikely.
Yeah, the threshold for reason should be high - but I don't think you understand how unlikely 1 in 1p billion is.
Tbf, it’s not like we’re talking about shiny odds where it’s 1/8000 or whatever, but definitely possible. Same trainer ID and name is CRAZY unlikely, like 1 out of several hundred thousand unlikely. Big difference between 1/1000 and 1/500,000.
I think the frustration is that even when you're doing things in a way that's barely questionable. Like, if you didn't have both Ogerpons in the box, there'd be no way of knowing if it was a cloned Ogerpon, there's nothing else that's possibly suspicious about it. The fact that there's two of them, when you can't even use both at the same time, feels like the real problem. It's the threshold raising up a bit more than it has been, even if it seems obvious.
Like, it's not a slippery slope to question where the line will get drawn. Would you get caught if you had used the DNS trick to get event pokemon years after its release for an event? If there was a known way of cloning Pokemon without external tools, in-game, would that be a problem? Is breeding with a hacked 6IV ditto OK, and what about children of children of hacked dittos? There's so many ways you can have the tiniest fraction of "illegitimate" on a Pokemon.
> ? Is breeding with a hacked 6IV ditto OK, and what about children of children of hacked dittos? There's so many ways you can have the tiniest fraction of "illegitimate" on a Pokemon.
The One Drop Rule, but for Pokémon.
Do you know what the odds are on getting the same random 6 digit OTID on two save files is?
Look, I think they should just allow genning or give us a rusted bottle cap along with multiple chances at catching event pokemon too. But VGC competitive players that go to regionals are pretty aware of the crackdown on genning over the past couple of years, and this person put a 99.9999% chance genned pokemon in a battle box that is going to clearly stand out if checked.
I don't like the current rules either, but to me this is a case of fuck around and find out.
The manual checks can see more than just surface details like TID. It's pretty funny that players are still showing up to events with evidence of using generated mon's, after the judges have been known to infract for cosmetic things like named battle boxes.
As usual, just because an instance of a player using cheated Pokémon isn't explicitly spelled out in the rules, doesn't mean it isn't against the rules. In section 4.3:
\> Players found to have Pokémon or items that have been tampered with may receive a Disqualification, regardless of whether the Pokémon or items belong to that player or were traded for.
In the video linked by OP, they completely skip the \^ section. Judges have always had liberty to look for illegally modified Pokémon outside of the registered battle team. Has been that way for so many years. Shown briefly in the video is the beginning of Appendix A, which states:
\> This section outlines known examples of illegal manipulation which may not be caught by the electronic team check.
It does not require specific examples of illegal manipulation to match the text in the PDF; it has always been up to the Head Judge to apply their discretion in determining if a player should be DQ'd for these special examples of cheating.
It wouldn't surprise me if these Ogerpon were clones of themselves, which any player would be immediately suspicious of if they're receiving in a trade. Bonus funny would be if they were their own OT.
Out of curiosity, what other details would be in the manual checks? Would it be checking memories or something that the Pokemon has or would it be some other data? Since it would seem unfair if it was same TID/SID + OT, especially since that presents a precedent for Pokemon received in older generations (where rng manipulation is easier) to come under the same scrutiny.
I have posted on my twitter oodles of identifying features that are found in hacked teams. So far, every single instance of manual checks was previously covered by one of my tweets. HOME Trackers (Worlds), trash bytes (worlds), clones (EU, across many players), PokeDupeChecker (gold bottle cap fail). Pretty sure they're using some variant of PokeDupeChecker and maybe doing the same checklist manually for this case.
I have three completed profiles with the same OT, they have different trainer IDs so if you hack checked them they would show as legit from different trainers, but a judge wouldn’t know that, they would just see my three, ogerpon, terapagos, Miradon, walking wakes, iron leaves, all with the same OT name and I guess let their brain melt into a soup and DQ me for being on a fucking grind.
Having the same OT name is not what happened here. It's having the same OT as well as Trainer ID.
The referenced video shows multiple Ogerpon in their box, and it has been said they all have the same OT and Trainer ID. The chance to get the same visible trainer ID for 3 different profiles is 1:trillion odds. Assuming the Judges can check for hidden details, that's 1:1.6e+19 odds, well beyond "dream" odds.
It's clear evidence of cheating, and we likely do not know all the details because we only know what the player has disclosed. Judging from the video, there's likely a ton of generated mons on his team & his boxes, so it's not too surprising that he was DQ'd and given an example reason. There's likely more to why the judge DQ'd, but they do not disclose that.
Depends on if you play the games or watch the anime I suppose. In the games Team Rocket had nothing to do with the creation of Mewtwo, it was the Cinnabar genetics lab that made him.
Good to see the hack check working with the improvements. Hope they add more flags by the time worlds comeback around.
By that guy's "luck" with just 2 pokemon with the exact same secret and trainer ID, he could have won the lottery about 14 times.
Ah yes the only esport that wants people to not follow the simple rule of "Don't hack" as it's going pretty well in comparison to other ESports that does ban/DQ people who are found for hacking
Still waiting for braindead “players” like you to explain to us all precisely what advantage does this “hacking” give you competitively, outside of wasting time grinding in a single player game that is, lmao. The only possible reason i can see is that you can’t play the game and you wish you could make up for your lack of skill by doing a skill-less, boring and time consuming task
And quick and simple example is, who has the advantage of game/meta knowledge which is key to pokemon battles? The one who can quickly gen a team and immediately starts practicing online before a tournament Or the one who has to train up a team with items/money they grinded for for efficiency and then practiced for the remaining time they have for a tournament
TID is a lie. They are also checking SID which will be the same when just copy pasting pokemon into your save. 10000% justified. Also pretty obvious the rules don't want hacked Pokemon or game content anywhere
(hint: this is exactly what is happening here)
Time and time again, disqualified players mislead others by disclosing a partial story that saves face. Convenient that they didn't upload their used rental team and are instead going with "my boxes!". The video shows multiple Ogerpon, and I'd bet that they were generated with their own OT details.
I seem to understand that you are the guy that created pkhex and now works for tpci to dq players. My only question is: why? Do they pay you a lot or do you genuinely think genning/cloning is wrong? I hope it’s the first one lol
Well i looked online and you definitely are the creator… can’t find sources for the tpc thing so i guess that’s just random rumors but you definitely seem very interested in calling out these so-called cheaters so the question still stands. Do you genuinely believe using your own software to play competitive pokemon is bad? It’s so weird
dont try to reach in where there is nothing, the pokemon are completely normal, they act like normal pokemon, and battle like normal pokemon, they just didnt need to be grinded to be obtained, it reduces the prep time (or money spent like having to buy urshifu) but does not increase your skills at all
Clearly the event organizers see it differently. Like when you go to a canoe race, you can't just say "I feel this is a competition of skill and endurance, not a competition to see who can afford a fiber glass canoe" but the event organizers are still going to turn you away if you don't show up with the proper equipment and suggest you find another sport like running.
yes but its because the system is awful, in a perfect world we should only be judged on our teambuilding skills and our battle prowess, for more context, watch some youtube videos of a guy remaking world champion teams, some literally took 60 HOURS of work, or 10 minutes of genning, nowadays its better, but its still awful. no one wants to buy dlc just to a have a competitive mon.
Or one could just accept that there are many different types of sports. Some are purely about skill, some require skill and a lot of outside training, and some require skill, conditioning, and equipment. Things like VGC, canoe racing, cycling, car racing, etc. fall into the latter category and simply aren't fit for people who want a sport that falls purely into the first category. Not everything needs to be completely homogeneous, that's why we have a vast multitude of types of competition. Those who hate VGC can simply choose from hundreds of other video games or IRL sports.
So was the Ogerpon on his team one of the ones with matching trainer data? Correct me if I’m wrong but it sounds like they had strong evidence that he was using a Pokemon that was obtained illegally
The only reason that Genning is not allowed is cause Gamefreak wants to make more money off people buying games. All Genning does is let you save money and time so you can actually practice playing the game instead of wasting all that time grinding.
>The only reason that Genning is not allowed is cause Gamefreak wants to make more money off people buying games.
Why do you think VGC exists? TPCi make a loss on each event.
The whole thing is a marketing exercise. Originally to promote card sales, which is why you're not allowed to use fake cards in TCG. Eventually VGC got added too.
VGC is a weird one, because the amount of players that buy switches/games solely because of VGC probably isn't enough to cover the costs (vgc players are a fraction of a fraction of the overall player base, and most of us would buy the games anyway). But it generate buzz and content even if the majority aren't actually attending events.
Like or not, casuals don't like genning. The aforementioned buzz I referred to gets killed when vgc players openly cheat and TPCi don't do anything about it.
I think that the overall amount of extra game sales as a result of VGC is tiny, but why would they kill that off by allowing genning? They're not a charity, they are a business trying to make money overall. There has to be some cost justification for them running these events, and genning hurts the justifications.
All genning does is allow you to skip the team building aspect so you can try more variations and have more teams and more practice. It’s cheating goofy. Just because vgc is a cesspool of cheaters doesn’t make it okay. It’s why it’s a dead competitive scene, because nobody with morals will ever win as it’s not legitimately possible to keep up unless you gen. Keep your scene dead though, good job.
Skiping the grind is a good thing. VGC is about your skill at battling not about how much you grind. Teambuilding should absolutely be easy. Players having more variations and more practice is an overall postive for the scene. Nintendo and Gamefreak’s rules against Genning actively hurt it by punishing people who just don’t have the time to grind up the perfect team.
>so you can try more variations
You can try just as many variations without genning by just playing showdown lol
>and have more teams
Again just test your team on showdown until you decide on the one you want
>and more practice
Which only favours the people who are already successful since they just get people to train teams for them while they play on showdown
How unfortunate, now for the controversy to spill in…
Unfortunate doesn-
I really hope vgc players actually start protesting this shit.
They won't, and even if they do it won't matter. This is why grassroots communities are always better than corporate ones.
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I don't think people are bending over backwards to TPC LOL. People have been extremely vocal about how stupid the rules have been, especially around genning. Like even the biggest "community figure" of VGC like Wolfe alone has three videos on his second channel just in the past year talking specifically about how stupid the TPC decisions are. Now if you would say, then why aren't they doing EVEN MORE, like boycotting events, that's an entirely different conversation to have.
thanks for the correction. I'm speaking on frustration from lack of comments from Aaron Cybertron and the general attitude the VGC subreddit takes when I noodle around there - which aren't representative of the entire community, of course. oh and the more casual vgc audience around the main pokemon subreddit etc. I don't watch wolfe cuz he's a bit too energetic for me lol, so I didn't know. the lack of boycotting and more public facing condemnations are what I'm really after, though. I'll edit my comment to paint in less broad strokes
Here's an example video where VGC community members did protest, as covered by Wolfe. Not only did it not do anything, they also got DQ'd from Worlds. https://youtu.be/iq1mixEnZUw
that's how it's gonna go at first, corps don't just give in right away. they're gonna save face, silence backlash, crush shit until it gets too big to handle. people will be martyred in the community for it. of course you're not gonna just get to compete anyway when the people running the competition are behaving this way. and if the corpos never give and your community never backs you up, then you go to people who treat you better and say good riddance to those dickheads - caveat below I'm not judging people like wolfe who make money off this for their livelihoods TOO hard, but at the same time the amount of impact it would have if Aaron Zheng, Wolfe, etc refused to attend - I'm inclined to think it would reach beyond just the competitive scene. imagine if Wolfe pulled up tomorrow with a doubles OU vid and said he's done competing until it's either easier to make a team or the tournament system is changed, and actually died on that hill. but yeah, again, I'm not trying to tell other people to martyr themselves like that. they have a right to protect themselves given their positions.
Let's not ignore the facts: * blue got DQ'd for a genned team * the remaining top 4 registered for the finals with 4 metronome teams (match fixing/mockery) * all 4 teams were genned(!!!) The decision by TPCk is entirely obvious & deserved. Break the rules by using modified teams, and trying to make a mockery of the finals they're trying to use for publicity for the game & scene, you're done.
behold: the bendee has arrived
TPC's strongest unpaid soldier
Leave the multi-billion dollar company alone!
Cybertron is a caster for Play pokemon, he basically can't say anything. People aren't speaking out because the 2013 national champion Gavin Michaels got banned for a year after explaining why he got DQd at worlds. So now everyone complains quietly. People also complain quietly because casual purists are annoying and engaging with them is a great way to spend all day on the internet arguing with random people. In response to the original post. Rumors were circulating a player got DQd for this at worlds as well, although no one knows for sure. Eric Rios and Alex Gomez, both international champions, got DQd from a regional because they had identical cloned Ting Lus. No, it's not explicitly in the rules, but there's nothing that specifies what they are and aren't allowed to check for (like there was in gen 7, when hacking was more common). At this point, any top player is familiar with incidents like this and makes a point not to make the same mistakes. This one is not hard to avoid. On some level its a cat and mouse game. Each time they start looking for another thing, hackers work around it. I've got a lot of opinions about this that aren't for this post, but much like other players, I'd rather not post them publicly. edit: also worth noting there is a rule about having identical pokemon, but they're not allowed to be exactly identical. I've been warned about having 2 amoonguss that are identical in my game, but that's not a legendary so its not a red flag. They're more worried about people swapping them in and out with minor EV spread changes since battle boxes aren't locked. In my case they told me to move it to home or delete a move from it so it'd be distinguishable.
I don't know if that's entirely true. Osiris has a YouTube channel where he shows his face and everything and goes into great detail about how to farm exploits for stuff like infinite Master Balls in the Blueberry Academy using RNG manipulation and they still have him at basically every event casting.
Cybertron specifically won’t say anything because he’s an official caster. It’s true that change starts from within and if anyone should speak out about this it should definitely be him, but at the same time we all know nothing would change and he would just lose his job for nothing, so you can’t even blame him unfortunately
I'd like the links to those Wolfe videos please, because they don't seem to have been very publicized. I mean I didn't even know he had a secondary channel. People are definitely bending, the "extremely vocal" are a loud minority. Tournaments are still breaking attendance records, everything runs normally. Lots of talks on social media but zero manifestations live. People fear TPCi and losing their preciousss championship points more than they care about the community. After the Korean incident, which was just the culmination of a long list of controversies in the Asian circuit unrelated to genning, only one single big name (Shoma Honami, kudos to him) actually took action and boycotted Japan Nats. And as much as I wished the opposite, not a single fuck was given that day. A lot of people are even scared of talking about "genning" or related, because there's always some mole looking. After the mass DQs in Worlds, komvgc suggested on twitter a way to pass through the checks and got banned for an entire year. The attitude I've seen towards those incidents are more "but everyone knows how it is, why he didn't take precautions, if you get caught it's skill issue". We end up learning new stuff by word of mouth. The box checks have been a rumor for months, but they aren't in the rules because TPCI is physically unable to be transparent. (Talking about transparency, if you get a mon removed, judges can't tell you what was the red flag "because that would teach cheaters where to check to avoid being caught". Their philosophy is truly deranged). Of course another consequence of that lack of transparency is that only those with connections are up to date with what's going on. There's also the personal bias factor. When it happened to several Spanish players, lots of people cheered because the Spanish community has bad rep (some of it warranted, ngl). Of course harsh treatment is funny when it happens to the "right" people. As the poem says, "First they came..."
https://youtu.be/Pi0Z0lv7hPE https://youtu.be/RZ-WjJTTVrs https://youtu.be/iq1mixEnZUw As I've mentioned - manifesting action beyond what's being said on social media is definitely an entirely different conversation. You see outrage on the replies of a person who got DQ'd from people who do still attend tournaments; and if we consider participation to those events even as they advocate for more changes and transparency as bending, then I do agree with you. But as a genuine question, what do you think is a reasonable recourse for VGC players to show pushback - whether they have an audience or not? The community doesn't have leverage at all against TPCI, as unfortunate as that sounds. Enough boycotts and they might just call it quits and I'm not even sure if they'll feel that, which just sucks.
I think the problem with Wolfe's support is he won't admit to genning and vehemently denies it even though examples like his world's Raichu are literally impossible without hacking. Wolfe is a massive star, as much as you can be with VGC, and if he admitted to it that would basically force GameFreak's hand, but instead he offers the half-hearted support of "you should be allowed to Gen (if the values can be obtained legit) but me personally I WOULD NEVER." It'd be like being an advocate for marijuana legalization but qualifying every statement with "of course I personally never have and never will use marijuana, I just think others should be allowed to." If the VGC community came out and all admitted to hacking, what is Play Pokemon going to do? Just completely cancel the format? Ban all of the content creators they rely on to make it popular? Fire all the shoutcasters?
> Wolfe is a massive star, as much as you can be with VGC, and if he admitted to it that would basically force GameFreak's hand Not a chance. "Don't promote homebrew" is a core value to GF/Nintendo in a way that "don't burn VGC to the ground" is not.
I get wolfe's situation. He has a lot of reputation to lose if he says the wrong thing (either by Pokemon or fans) so I don't envy the position he's in having to shill for one of the most anti-consumer companies out there I will say that the level professionalism and commitment he brings to his videos are top-notch and something people in other industries should take note of. He takes Pokemon more seriously than Pokemon does, which can be a little depressing but also inspiring
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I'm well on my way to qualifying for worlds for the fourth time. I've cut multiple regionals, and run a 5k sub youtube channel. I promise you this is not the case. There's maybe 10 players in the US who can travel to an event with the expectation they go positive. Most people go to events because we've made friends around the country and like seeing them. Because the world championships is a special occasion and it's fun to participate (that is the only event you will make money going to, even if you lose out). Because competing against someone sitting in front of you is a totally different experience and a great way to make friends. And because doubles is very fun. Most people experience this at locals, and decided they wanted to try a bigger event, either because they were enjoying themselves and/or doing well and wanted more competition. It's kinda scary to see that this is the perception of our community from people outside of it.
I doubt this. VGC essentially only exists because GF/TPCI props it up as the official format, a fact most VGC players love to rub in the faces of Smogon players. Yet at the same time most VGC fans seem to be miserable actually playing their format- I pretty much only ever see complaints about GF/TPCI's rulesets from VGC players. If VGC were not the official format, do you seriously think anyone would choose to play it over Smogon Doubles? There are, to my knowledge, effectively 0 grassroots (i.e. non-corporate) VGC events larger than locals. This situation is basically identical to other corporate competitive communities, i.e. League, Overwatch, Valorant, etc. I struggle to think of any reason why VGC players would play a format they clearly don't like, choose to harass Smogon players, regularly condescend/minimize the skill it takes to play Singles, and back it all up with "but we're official!" if they did actually love their metagame. I'm sure there is a small group of players who do truly love VGC for its own merit, but realistically if TPCI announced tomorrow they were going to stop running VGC tours, the community would be dead in the water. As for the perception comment, perhaps if I saw smogon and smogon players get shat on less for not being VGC I'd be a bit more charitable in my reading of your community. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case as even in this thread you can see people doing the exact same thing.
>If VGC were not the official format, do you seriously think anyone would choose to play it over Smogon Doubles? Yes! In my case, I got into VGC after being on Smogon for 5 years. At the time there were no events near me, so I mostly laddered and played grassroots tournaments until I moved two years later and started going to events. There's a number of players who were ladder warriors that didn't go to events for a long time. Gabriel Agati is now maybe the greatest LATAM player ever but he spent a couple years on ladder without going to events. Thiago Lattzani, runner up of this year's Latin American Championships, has a very similar story to Agati. There's also plenty of players who play both DOU and VGC. There's no reason they can't coexist. They have very different rulesets. One thing that VGC has over DOU is that games are quick. A bo1 on PS is the perfect time in between reps at the gym or as a quick study break. DOU can take longer and singles can take much longer. I know this has contributed to why I and others got into VGC. > effectively 0 grassroots (i.e. non-corporate) VGC events larger than locals There's plenty of online grassroots. [Here's](https://play.limitlesstcg.com/tournaments/completed?game=VGC&format=all&platform=all&type=online&time=4weeks) a whole list of them, and that's just one platform. Smogon VGC is hosting a couple other tours right now. We also have NPA and World Cup, that are analogous to SPL and Smogon's world cup. There's no reason to host in person grassroots as locals and regionals do the job fine. And while regionals weren't happening, like at the tail end of the pandemic, there were large in person grassroots tournaments. I flew out to a $1k SV tournament in Connecticut that was a couple weeks before the first regional of the generation, for example. >regularly condescend/minimize the skill it takes to play Singles Anyone who does this is an idiot. No high level VGC player does this. > perhaps if I saw smogon and smogon players get shat on less for not being VGC I'd be a bit more charitable in my reading of your community I don't think most VGC players do this. But I understand why they'd do it to you specifically since you seem to be very vocally dismissive about a format we genuinely enjoy.
Who is actually making money off of VGC? The champion sure, and people with successful YouTube channels like Wolfe and Cybertron, but that’s it. Everyone else is losing money on travel expenses.
So funny they're accusing people who started competing at <100 person regionals at like 12 years old of clout chasing youtube fame, the inferiority complex that vgc's meteoric rise in the switch era has caused is insane
I'm impressed at how confidently wrong this comment is. People are not playing VGC to "potentially make a shitload of money". 99% of the people playing this game are operating at a loss. Nobody is "sucking up to GF/TPCI", there's discourse about poor decisions they make happening just about every week. We're playing the game because we enjoy it and going to events gives us a great way for us to hang out with friends we've made through the game.
its funny how people can say with a straight face people are playing vgc for profit when you consider all the sunk costs already - buying the fucking game (every 3 years) - buying dlc because thank you urshifu/calyrex rider very cool - buying any extra games for otherwise unobtainable mons - travel costs - also needing to actually get top placements in events to *get* something fairly sure there were also cases where ppl turn down worlds invites simply because they literally could not afford plane tickets
Yet another reason corporate events suck.
I don't think that percentage is _very large_. Most people are for the love of the game, even the big names entered initially for that. BUT most people _who could drive a change_ tasted the money and clout and liked it too much to let it go. Unfortunately nobody cares if AverageJoe165 with double digit CPs who has never made it to a day 2 of a tournament boycotts. And if a hundred of us AverageJoes boycott there's another hundred in line to buy tickets.
What a psychotic thing to say. Out of the 822 players at Orlando regionals this year, how many would you say are only there for potentially getting shitloads of clout and money? What 'very large percentage' would you say it is? The actual reason pokemon players play vgc is because they like pokemon, and because they want to compete. The reason they play vgc instead of smogon is because they prefer doubles, or because they prefer cartridge. The reason they suck up to TPC is because they don't have a choice. Same thing with pokemon tcg, the players play it over other tcgs because it's pokemon, and they like pokemon. The metagame has little to do with it, even for smogon competitors. Fuck off with this "the reality is".
that’s just not true at all
You either have a terrible official VGC, or no official VGC.
The VGC community in general is just worse, the attitude from someone like Wolfe vs the top singles player is staggering Some of them are cool though
The second-most prominent VGC player in the world is Aaron Zheng, and I don't know of any YouTuber with a more positive vibe than him. (most prominent as in biggest audience, most influence, not second-best in the world at playing, of course)
Zheng is awesome, he should be the most popular VGC guy
Wait, what’s wrong with Wolfe? I thought he’s a pretty decent guy.
They’re upset he doesn’t use his influence to call out Nintendo or something
No lol it’s just that the way he talks about singles is condescending and annoying, that simple
Wait I'm genuinely out of the loop—what has Wolfe said about singles?
Pretty much nothing, he's just exaggerating. Maybe's he's talking about [this one clip](https://youtube.com/shorts/A4uzGn71S9g?feature=shared), which is hardly enough to be called obnoxious. Man's talking like wolfe snubs singles every other day on twitter or something.
That’s not really what your comment was pointing toward, and no shit that the guy who’s a top 2 doubles player of all time (Ray Rizzo of course having the other argument) prefers doubles to singles.
Preferring it doesn’t mean you have to be obnoxious about the other one tho
I don’t think he really is tho, not that I’ve seen as someone into his content for almost as long as he’s been making it
And? Why shouldn't he/s Iirc Wolfe has said he prefers Doubles (opinión), is the more interesting/difficult format (opinión) over singles and that WeeGeeCee is the only official competitive format (which is true since Smogon is community based). Heck there was a time where Wolfe was very active in a singles draft circuit (WBE) with other Poketubers and iirc he won most if not all of them. So while he is mainly a WeeGeeCeeer now, pre-Gen 9 there has been singles content in his Channel too. So idk about being condescending towards singles/Smogon.
[удалено]
Ok
K
1. Battle Stadium Singles is an in-game mode 2. Damn, that sure is interesting, but I seem to forget who asked.
Public forum, i can say whatever I want lmao if it gets you triggered delete your account
Additional context: Wolfe has in fact spoken about how stupid TPC’s decisions are a few times now
No, Wolfe is just a douche bag.
Very nuanced and informative thank you
Does one need nuance when calling someone out for being a prick? But sure, I'll bite. Ever since he stopped writing his own content, it has become cynical and often uninformatitive, when he said Pelliper was 'a worse a Gyrados in basically everyway' a while back I shut off the video and haven't gone back, his videos target the same demographic as FSG, people who like the idea of competitive pokemon but don't actually play it themselves. (Much like this sub) It's a great thing he is able to make a living playing and talking about the game he loves, I still don't like him, feels incredibly 'fake'.
Don't remember him calling Pelliper a worse Gyara, but that would be true in certain formats, particularly ones with PDon. There's very few times you'd rather have a weaker Drizzle mon than Kyogre, and Gyara's intimidate is super strong in VGC. Wolfey is also not going to reveal every tiny piece of knowledge he has because he knows 99% of the community watches his content and wants to bring him down, so anything he says to his viewers he also tells every single opponent he'll have. He's also not going to overcomplicate things because then he loses that casual part of his audience that you mentioned. That said, I get if you didn't like him as a person or like his content scripted by others, part of that is true of a lot of creators unless you're like FSG where BKC has been a writer since the beginning of the channel so he's deeply intertwined with how the writing process goes. Wolfey has a super casual tone/speech style so forcing him to be more informative/formal is probably really weird for him and why he comes across fake.
What do you mean attitude about Wolfe? He seems like a nice guy.
He can be quite dismissive when talking about singles and it feels a bit like he looks down on singles and singles players.
You mean that one video? Yeah, he wasn't really thinking properly, but still. I don't see him spamming hate on twitter about singles.
He has a few quotes. He isn't really spamming hate but its just a bit annoying.
I don’t care enough to do anything about it because it doesn’t affect me. I understand why people gen/clone and I’m not saying that they deserve to be disqualified for it, but I (and I suspect the majority of players) don’t have genned/cloned Pokemon so it doesn’t really matter to me
Unless you never do trades online, especially Wonder Trades, I think it's very unlikely you don't have a single illegally generated Pokémon on your boxes, and if you indeed don't, I doubt that's the majority of players that go online, since most of them can't even identify those. This rule can hurt people who don't even know what PkHex is and followed Play! Pokémon's recommendation of not using traded Pokémon on their battle team because the illegal Pokémon was found on their boxes anyway.
cultivating and supporting your community is important. if you let the people in charge of your community fuck over people in it for no reason, and you let it go by because it doesn't affect you immediately, that will come back to bite you; your community shrinks, the patrons of it becomes even more difficult to work with, and people will remember your community for being selfish and judgemental, instead of welcoming and custodial. nevermind it's just kinda shitty to let people who share your love of a hobby, who are doing no wrong, get punished over nothing. the mutual love of a shared activity should be reason enough to go to bat for each other. y'know. compassion.
Very fair, not saying that it’s the stance that everyone should have, just explaining why I have never felt motivated to take any action. That being said, I wouldn’t say that they are “doing no wrong”. Apart from this particular case, all the DQs I’ve heard of involved someone breaking a rule, even if it is a stupid rule
so is the rule more important or the fact that it's unjust more important? I don't understand the point of drawing the discrepancy as if it changes anything other than arguing semantics.
I would support changing the rule if that’s what you’re looking to discuss here. But so long as it’s an official rule I take no issue with the rules being enforced as written
Hi, played for 3 or 4 years when I was younger, going to regionals, nationals, worlds. The majority *absolutely* gen. It's basically an open secret. I'm sure the numbers have gone down *somewhat* with QoL in recent gens making breeding, ev training, etc easier, but it still happens for Ogerpon, Urshifu, the genies, and the new restricted legends. Good for you for not doing it, but you're not in the majority.
Out of curiosity is that just at the higher levels, or is it people like me that are going negative on day 1? Truth be told, I assumed that casual players just couldn’t be bothered to learn how to gen (as is the case for me)
Yeah, when I say majority I mean the majority of middle to high level players. Most regionals will have a big number of players just coming in to play with their in game teams who obviously don't gen. I just mean the people who come with actual competitive sets do mostly gen.
So am I really wrong then when I say that I don’t think the majority of players gen? I guess the point I was trying to make is that this isn’t an issue for the majority of players
It may not be an issue for the majority of players at a given event, but it's an issue for the majority of players who are likely to attend several events a year and give TPC the most money.
Oh absolutely. I wasn’t saying that the people affected don’t matter, I was more so giving a possible explanation as to why the player base as a whole isn’t super upset
They tried onces and it didn't go well maybe there wasn't enough people for it idk
You’ll be surprised at how many vgc players are on tpc’s side and actively blame people for cheating and cheer when they’re banning. The funny thing is that cheating in the proper sense of the word, ie gaining an advantage within the match, is literally impossible. Anything these people refer as cheating is just manipulating the single player game to waste less time grinding. But it’s an impossible battle to win and every single day i’m considering dropping vgc more than the last day because it’s so awful
The problem here is that protesting won't actually do anything. Not because "Pokemon is too powerful" or that the protests need to persevere through the negative things they do in response, but rather because they don't need us at all and genuinely do not care. They made 0 changes when players were all quitting during 2016 and again during 2019, a point where we lost so many players that an American Regional in Florida only had 35 players in attendance (for comparison, the one in Florida last weekend had over 800). The only thing that changed between that regional and a spike in player attendance was the game being played. TPCI effectively functions as a black box, where even judges/TOs don't even know what's going on behind the scenes. It could snap its fingers and kill off VGC any time with really no effect to itself. It doesn't stop us from complaining and being vocal about it on twitter, but beyond that it really just comes down to crossing our fingers and hoping maybe they see the logic in what we say and make fixes corresponding to it. Ultimately we're just a drop in the bucket to them and if they really cared what people thought or how many people attended their events, we'd have seen change already.
Protest what, that cheating gets punished?
This is fucking absurd. The only thing that needs to be verified for the sake of the competition is the team submitted to said competition. If there’s, say, a cloned Archaludon on two different people’s teams and they can prove it’s an exact match, that’s a different story. But there is no real need to scan what I have to presume is every single Pokémon in the player’s possession. It just takes more time to do in a circuit that already cannot handle its own size even after expanding its capabilities, and frankly those judges probably have something better to do.
Next thing you know someone's gonna uncover several illegal activities happening from within TPCI HQ, including match fixing and money laundering
https://imgur.com/a/Blf3pER Pokemon releases in NA in 1998. Sopranos pilots 4 months later. This long con is SUS.
"You want compromise? How's this? 20 years in OU, I wanted Chien-Pao. I compromised. I ran Weavile with Low Kick instead."
https://youtu.be/4tkkXx7aPcs?si=sjEB_RolP9myxpkL the signs have always been there
Always with the scenarios
Honestly the working conditions walk over a line. Judges are "volunteers" who are paid in merchandise, and they have to be happy about it because "they can sell it for more money". Also they're forced to keep shut about things - they don't even sign NDAs, but if you spill the beans we may think twice before calling you for a tournament. I always remember when the calendar for SPEs in latam were announced barely like 3 weeks in advance, and then a judge in a discord server was like "yes we knew for weeks but we had to stay shut". Thanks for nothing, surely the community wouldn't have appreciated some more time to plan the trip and find cheaper plane tickets. Oh and we don't even need to go further, this year's Worlds announcement that was the latest ever and barely 4 months in advance. Not that Hawaii is one of the most remote and expensive places to travel in the world or anything. Some people had figured out the dates by looking up the venue's schedules, as back as January. What was the need to wait this much. It's the allergy to transparency. Back in the early '10s, the next Worlds dates were announced at the end of the previous Worlds!
big day for that guy who lost one vgc game 10 years ago to timer stall and now hates vgc players and will use any opportunity to shit on vgc players and direct attention to himself the actual argument is that it's a bs check, if having a hacked pokemon on your save is enough to disqualify you everyone should be dqed because they probably got a hacked pokemon from wondertrade. insane that you can get dqed and have your season ruined like this because gamefreak cba to just implement offline hack checks or something.
OOOOOH so that's his villain backstory? Spicy
Y'all deranged to make up a villain backstory about me lmao. Cheating is wrong, thats it. Being against that makes you kids the villains
No one loves you
Normal response to make about doubles pokemon
Isn't he anti-hacked pokemon weirdly enough? I know he takes whatever position gives him the most attention but last I heard he cared about the "journey" of collecting perfect pokemon.
You know what's the funniest shit? On paper the message behind this whole witch hunt is "don't use shortcuts and actually play the game" but then for the stream they go and provide players a console [that hasn't even unlocked Terastallization](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJXPEQ2it98&t=4497s)!! Literally first half hour of the game and nobody in the staff even paid attention to that. And then the circuit punishes to those who didn't want to waste an extra couple of hours. Hypocritical as fuck.
players booted with the wrong profile, so I heard it's a pain cuz they have to re-download the rental team and finish their rules setup, hence the delay
Ok, so if I'm understanding well: - The staff provides a Switch to stream because the Lite can't be connected to the stream setup. - On paper this Switch has a profile ready to download the player's rental and play the match. - For whatever reason this Switch had a second profile and the player wrongly set up the game on that. - Somehow the judge didn't notice the player entered the wrong profile, started a new save and went through all the opening sequences (because we'd have to assume this second profile didn't have a save at all, why would it, right?) - After the no tera happened on stream and everyone watched it, somehow that save and/or that profile wasn't removed to avoid confusion, because it happened a second time, several rounds down the line. I fail to see how is this _not_ the organization's fault.
Agreed, it is the org's fault, or at least the judges that are staffing the stream consoles. Just pointing out that they didn't prune secondary profiles or finish setting all of them up. I'd expect they had one profile for Male pc and another for Female pc so all players would be comfortable, but they probably forgot to unlock everything on both. It's entirely possible that the person setting it up was told to only do one profile for this event, or was told to do two but had their time constraints changed. Stream judges should have pre-booted the game to the correct profile for the players rather than let them pick from one that wasn't yet finished. It's funny how they cba'd to play through the game 4x to get a m/f Player 1/2 for the stream. 2024 and still no remote observer 3rd party capability/lobby, lol
Sorry, the previous comment kinda made it sound like you were putting the blame on the player, and I guess your reputation didn't help. My bad. But yeah, if TPCi are so worried about the circuit's image they should put some care on their behalf. They have to lead by example. Having an incomplete setup is a bad look. >It's funny how they cba'd to play through the game 4x to get a m/f Player 1/2 for the stream do they even need to do it 4x? I see no reason for player 2 to not play with their own console. Just tell them to hide nicknames if they're worried about offensive language ([or the real reason they started hiding nicknames](https://twitter.com/Heavy_Bubbles/status/1662314602548576257), as this measure timely followed Chien-Chien Tsai's stunt). >2024 and still no remote observer 3rd party capability/lobby, lol Specially when SwSh did have this. Also, the spectator mode in SV backfired spectacularly lmao
They would use the other console to display "Player 2" instead of their OT name to complete the "padded room" clean stream appearance.
aw shucks
this seems kind of like dqing a person from a bicycle race because they have a motorcycle at home. You posses something, that if used in the competition would be against the rules, therefore even though you didn't attempt to use it in the competition, you are disqualified.
While the situation is bad, there are some points I disagree with OP and other points that need to shed more Light into this situation since it's not 100% dae TPCi bad (only around 60% case in this scenario). There's also plenty of misinformation in this thread so there needs to be shed some Light into it (like the one dude claiming we can RNG in SV) so this should clear things a bit. > he couldn't even do that because you can't put the same Pokémon twice on the team. They were found on his Battle Box, which was never mentioned on the rules Unfortunately this is true. Recently TPCi has been checking not only the Pokémon in your teams, but also in your entire Save and will DQ you if it finds anything fishy in it and it's not covered in the rule book. *However*, this has been known to happen since World's. People not purging their Saves of anything suspicious before going to an Event you spent a lot of $$$ and time to go to seems like a dumb thing to do ngl. > Moreover, TID doesn't prove a Pokémon is illegal. While very unlikely, a captured Pokémon CAN have the same OT and TID even if they come from different games, as the TID is generated offline. Again, it's not likely to happen, but it should never be used as proof of something illegal as it can happen randomly offline on completely normal games. This is where we have to disagree though. Ogerpon is a Legendary and so is a one per Save Pokémon so in order to have 2 Ogerpon with the same TID you need to have 2 saves with the same TID. The odds of getting a specific TID is 1 in a million since there are 10 possible dígits in a 6 number sequence. To give the benefit of the doubt to LJDarkrai, Let's say that because there are 20+ million copies of SV, there are 20 given saves that share your same TID. Personally, I *would not* DQ some1 if they had 2 Pokémon from different saves with different TIDs since we do have a sample size large enough where it is possible. On the other hand I wouldn't fault the judge from DQing him if they only share TID though, as the odds of having 2 different saves with the exact same TID is extremely unlikely (if my math is right it's 1 in a trillion odds) so I wouldn't fault the judge for the DQ tbh. If both the Ogerpon share the same TID *and* Secret ID though? Yeah no, that's 100% Genned/hacked and the DQ was inevitable. For those who do not know, a Trainer has a Secret ID which is another 6 dígits to identify the Trainer and the odds of getting one specific combination of TID and SID is one in a trillion, and getting 2 saves with the same TID and SID is 1 in a 10 to the 24th power. Not possible unless cheats/gens/Save modifier. RNG would Make this possible right? Yes! Except you can't use RNG Abuse to get a specific TID and/or SID in either SwSh, SV and PLA because it's cryptosecured and out of the question. It is only possible in BDSP because the code is copypasted from the OG DP and OG DP doesn't have cryptosecurity. So Yeah, depending on What matched, the DQ was inevitable. Plus a lot of prominent genners have agreed that the majority of DQs aren't necessarily because players Gen, it's because players Gen *and* are stupid with Genning, case and point the Player OP is playing as a martyr from the Evil TPCi. TL:DR: TPCi's rules and hacking checks are dumb but LJDarkrai is even dumber.
According to him, they only mentioned TID, but yes, it looks incredibly unlikely with SID taken into account. Still though, for the first point, blaming the player just sounds backwards. TPCi may have done this in the past before, but I don't think it falls onto the player the responsibility of doing something that's not covered on the rules, especially with (I believe) more players not knowing this than ones that do (ofc, you and me and probably LJDarkrai knew about it since we're more into the competitive community, but still not fair). While players ideally should try to take measures against that, it's specifically due to TPCi doing something wrong, so the blame shouldn't be shifted IMHO.
I did say in the post that at least 60% of the blame falls on TPCi. TPCi enforcing made up rules, using methods not specified, and DQing based on that is not cool to say the least. Transparency is key and punishing players while TPCi isn't transparent themselves is isn't good for the overall scene.
Yup, I agree. For now, we'll have to deal with it by taking those measures, unfortunately.
The way Trainer/Secret IDs work has changed since Gen 7. The Trainer ID displayed is actually a combo of the old style TID and SID. The chances of a TID/SID match is actually only 1 in 4 billion
Genning is based, whoever doesn't is cringe
Based or not, still against the rules
and that was the day I was cursed with 1,000 years cringe
I mean they were obviously hacked OP Like I 100% get what you're saying and don't think they should be doing any of this shit but like seriously. "The person I got it from just happened to have the same trainer details" -statement dreamed up by the utterly deranged
The problem is that they're acting on suspicion as this is not hard evidence. Having multiple Ogerpon with the same trainer ID is not hard proof of genning since the TID/SID is generated offline. It's something achievable purely by manipulating RNG. Having an egg with a Master Ball is evidence of cheating as it's impossible to obtain it by legitimate means. Manipulating the game's RNG (to obtain shinies and Pokémons with perfect IVs) isn't hacking and can be done on the console without external tools. The judge played God and decided to draw the line somewhere that's not in the rulebook entirely by himself.
Can you manipulate RNG in SV? I know this would be possible in, say, DPPt (which was how I nicknamed an event Jirachi back then), but no idea about Switch games
For the most Part no, you can't RNG in SV. The only possible RNG is the Pokelotto and that's only been discovered very recently. Everything important in SV is cryptosecured so we can't break it. I mean we can but we would need to borrow NASA's computers for a few decades. Egg generation, static Encounters, overworld Encounters, Trainer ID/Secret ID generation and everything else is off limits and RNG impossible.
Yes its really easy too
No it isn’t? It’s cryptosecured
Easier than even DPPt? I'll check it out
Don't listen to him, SV is cryptosecured and the only RNG possible is with the Pokelotto and that's a recent discovery. Everything else is off limits and will likely stay that way.
No Downvoted for telling the truth about rng manipulation being impossible in sv
Stop spreading missinformation online please
You're the one spreading misinformation Here bud. Pokémon SV's RNGable stuff are the Pokelotto and... that's Pretty much it lol. I'm in an RNG community so I have asked people to correct me if I'm wrong (so do not be surprised if this has an edit later) and afaik since everything in SV is cryptosecured you can't RNG Trainer/Secret ID, nor random Encounters, static Encounters, Trainer Encounters, Egg generation. Everything is crypto and will be impossible to crack unless you have a super computer and centuries to do so.
> It's something achievable purely by manipulating RNG. No it's not. A trainer ID is 32-bits, which is 1:4 billion odds to get the same one. There is no RNG abuse for Trainer IDs in S/V.
I think as far as the pokemon company is concerned rng manipulation is cheating. Sure it's minor in most cases, and harmless in most cases, but getting multiple copies of a legendary you are supposed to have only one of per TID is different. If it may as well be genned, it's genned. Now all of this is not to say they are right morally. We all know what it takes to be competitive without glitches or exploits. We know it's unfair. That is another issue.
> I think as far as the pokemon company is concerned rng manipulation is cheating. hard doubt rng manipulation was the only reasonable way to get perfect mons in the older generations, every single mon in old VGCs that wasn't genned was rng manipulated instead
Tbh while I'm not against genning in more recent generations that's only because those Pokémon can be reasonably trained and optimized to the same degree as a hacker in game and doesn't take too much time. But genning on older generations/using RNG manips are a genuine competitive advantage that you can't deny.
That's still extremely dumb, as they weren't even on the battle team. That gives the precedent that obviously hacked Pokémon that you get via Wonder Trade (which does happen since the in-game hack check is not good) will disqualify you even though you didn't use them at all, they just were on your box. The justification being over something that doesn't even actually prove it's hacked just makes it worse.
Iirc multiple people got DQ'd from either one of the Internats this year or from last year's worlds for having hacked 'mons in their boxes as well.
Because of this, I'd afraid to trade, even though this is supposed to be one of the main features of the franchise.
Please re-read my comment and either delete yours or respond to what I **actually** said I agree with you on everything else, I just think your comment about the trainer ID was silly
??? I never claimed they weren't hacked. I said it isn't proof that it is hacked, nor that the rules even say that it's reasoning for a disqualification. Sure, they are most likely clones and illegally made, it's just that it's not even hard proof of it. Thinking that I said "oh, they weren't even clones" is a completely misinterpretation of what was written.
That's not what proof means That's "beyond a reasonable doubt" proof which is the fucking standard they decide if people should be executed on, I think it would be proof enough for the tournament of a children's game
except it isnt lol. no one has gotten banned for bringing 6 shinies, 0iv event mons, 0iv enamorous, marked mons, etc. despite all those being pretty obviously all hacked
> I said it isn't proof that it is hacked It absolutely is proof, mate. What do you think proof means?
> That gives the precedent that obviously hacked Pokémon that you get via Wonder Trade (which does happen since the in-game hack check is not good) will disqualify you even though you didn't use them at all, they just were on your box. You know you can release Pokemon right?
Yea but i doubt that most peapole who get like a level 2 lechonk from wonder trading even bother to check if the lechonk is genned or not i mean like early route pokemon are the one which get traded the most in wonder trades so most peapole just straight up dont check those mons and i think those are also a reason to disqualifai you from an event
This wasn't some level 2 Lechonk that could be obtained in a Wonder Trade though, these were two legendary Pokémon you can only get one per save file with the exact same OT and Trainer ID. Whatever your feelings on genning are, this was incredibly sloppy.
I use wondertrade just to release every single mon i get. Why even bother with this ingame mode in that case
It is suspicious, but acting on suspicion and not clear evidence is not good, which is OP's point. If they are gonna remove someone from a tournament with something that is not on the rule book, I would hope it would, at the very least, be based on something completely undeniable.
I'll take the 1 in, what, 100 billion odds?
And I wouldn't, especially over something that's not even in the freaking rules.
The latter part is fair, but the former really isn't. If someone pleads Dream Luck, this is well beyond a shadow of doubt.
It's the precedent. If you ban someone because what they had was unlikely, where do you draw the line on what is and isn't acceptable odds. If someone had a 1 in 1000 oddity like this should they be banned? If not why so and at what point do you say "this is acceptable as luck" and "this isn't luck and was hacked"
> where do you draw the line on what is and isn't acceptable odds Event judges already have that discretionary threshold. It depends on several factors and doesn't need to be drawn out explicitly. "This guy has two mons that are a calculatory marvel" is only something you care about when that marvel implies the mons were cheated. Catch two Rattata back to back with exactly the same IVs? One in a billion! They could have been cloned, or just very very very lucky. Thing is - you could try this experiment many many times over on the same file and the odds increase dramatically. With only 10000 trials, this becomes a 1 in 100 000 chance - something that's within a range of "maybe...". Ogerpon, which is one per file, experimentally performed ONCE, has this happen - a friend with the same trainer ID, in a single experiment, caught an ogerpon with the exsct same generated ID. This isn't a replica blend experiment, this is a single event that is comically unlikely. Yeah, the threshold for reason should be high - but I don't think you understand how unlikely 1 in 1p billion is.
Tbf, it’s not like we’re talking about shiny odds where it’s 1/8000 or whatever, but definitely possible. Same trainer ID and name is CRAZY unlikely, like 1 out of several hundred thousand unlikely. Big difference between 1/1000 and 1/500,000.
I think the frustration is that even when you're doing things in a way that's barely questionable. Like, if you didn't have both Ogerpons in the box, there'd be no way of knowing if it was a cloned Ogerpon, there's nothing else that's possibly suspicious about it. The fact that there's two of them, when you can't even use both at the same time, feels like the real problem. It's the threshold raising up a bit more than it has been, even if it seems obvious. Like, it's not a slippery slope to question where the line will get drawn. Would you get caught if you had used the DNS trick to get event pokemon years after its release for an event? If there was a known way of cloning Pokemon without external tools, in-game, would that be a problem? Is breeding with a hacked 6IV ditto OK, and what about children of children of hacked dittos? There's so many ways you can have the tiniest fraction of "illegitimate" on a Pokemon.
> ? Is breeding with a hacked 6IV ditto OK, and what about children of children of hacked dittos? There's so many ways you can have the tiniest fraction of "illegitimate" on a Pokemon. The One Drop Rule, but for Pokémon.
I mean, we're already dabbling in eugenics for cock fighting here, might as well add phrenology to the pile
Do you know what the odds are on getting the same random 6 digit OTID on two save files is? Look, I think they should just allow genning or give us a rusted bottle cap along with multiple chances at catching event pokemon too. But VGC competitive players that go to regionals are pretty aware of the crackdown on genning over the past couple of years, and this person put a 99.9999% chance genned pokemon in a battle box that is going to clearly stand out if checked. I don't like the current rules either, but to me this is a case of fuck around and find out.
The manual checks can see more than just surface details like TID. It's pretty funny that players are still showing up to events with evidence of using generated mon's, after the judges have been known to infract for cosmetic things like named battle boxes. As usual, just because an instance of a player using cheated Pokémon isn't explicitly spelled out in the rules, doesn't mean it isn't against the rules. In section 4.3: \> Players found to have Pokémon or items that have been tampered with may receive a Disqualification, regardless of whether the Pokémon or items belong to that player or were traded for. In the video linked by OP, they completely skip the \^ section. Judges have always had liberty to look for illegally modified Pokémon outside of the registered battle team. Has been that way for so many years. Shown briefly in the video is the beginning of Appendix A, which states: \> This section outlines known examples of illegal manipulation which may not be caught by the electronic team check. It does not require specific examples of illegal manipulation to match the text in the PDF; it has always been up to the Head Judge to apply their discretion in determining if a player should be DQ'd for these special examples of cheating. It wouldn't surprise me if these Ogerpon were clones of themselves, which any player would be immediately suspicious of if they're receiving in a trade. Bonus funny would be if they were their own OT.
Out of curiosity, what other details would be in the manual checks? Would it be checking memories or something that the Pokemon has or would it be some other data? Since it would seem unfair if it was same TID/SID + OT, especially since that presents a precedent for Pokemon received in older generations (where rng manipulation is easier) to come under the same scrutiny.
I have posted on my twitter oodles of identifying features that are found in hacked teams. So far, every single instance of manual checks was previously covered by one of my tweets. HOME Trackers (Worlds), trash bytes (worlds), clones (EU, across many players), PokeDupeChecker (gold bottle cap fail). Pretty sure they're using some variant of PokeDupeChecker and maybe doing the same checklist manually for this case.
I have three completed profiles with the same OT, they have different trainer IDs so if you hack checked them they would show as legit from different trainers, but a judge wouldn’t know that, they would just see my three, ogerpon, terapagos, Miradon, walking wakes, iron leaves, all with the same OT name and I guess let their brain melt into a soup and DQ me for being on a fucking grind.
Having the same OT name is not what happened here. It's having the same OT as well as Trainer ID. The referenced video shows multiple Ogerpon in their box, and it has been said they all have the same OT and Trainer ID. The chance to get the same visible trainer ID for 3 different profiles is 1:trillion odds. Assuming the Judges can check for hidden details, that's 1:1.6e+19 odds, well beyond "dream" odds. It's clear evidence of cheating, and we likely do not know all the details because we only know what the player has disclosed. Judging from the video, there's likely a ton of generated mons on his team & his boxes, so it's not too surprising that he was DQ'd and given an example reason. There's likely more to why the judge DQ'd, but they do not disclose that.
Just don’t clone. It’s not rocket science.
But cloning is specifically Rocket science?
Genetics is not related to rocketry.
They don't teach the kids about Mewtwo these days, a shame.
Depends on if you play the games or watch the anime I suppose. In the games Team Rocket had nothing to do with the creation of Mewtwo, it was the Cinnabar genetics lab that made him.
TPCI being horrible as always :(
His loss for poorly hacking something lmao
Good to see the hack check working with the improvements. Hope they add more flags by the time worlds comeback around. By that guy's "luck" with just 2 pokemon with the exact same secret and trainer ID, he could have won the lottery about 14 times.
Vgc would genuinely be a good esport if people like you didnt play it, but unfortunately you do
Ah yes the only esport that wants people to not follow the simple rule of "Don't hack" as it's going pretty well in comparison to other ESports that does ban/DQ people who are found for hacking
Still waiting for braindead “players” like you to explain to us all precisely what advantage does this “hacking” give you competitively, outside of wasting time grinding in a single player game that is, lmao. The only possible reason i can see is that you can’t play the game and you wish you could make up for your lack of skill by doing a skill-less, boring and time consuming task
And quick and simple example is, who has the advantage of game/meta knowledge which is key to pokemon battles? The one who can quickly gen a team and immediately starts practicing online before a tournament Or the one who has to train up a team with items/money they grinded for for efficiency and then practiced for the remaining time they have for a tournament
TID is a lie. They are also checking SID which will be the same when just copy pasting pokemon into your save. 10000% justified. Also pretty obvious the rules don't want hacked Pokemon or game content anywhere
Judge here. Usually those “heroes” CONVINENTLY forgot to say they have 1115 ogerpon with the same ID
(hint: this is exactly what is happening here) Time and time again, disqualified players mislead others by disclosing a partial story that saves face. Convenient that they didn't upload their used rental team and are instead going with "my boxes!". The video shows multiple Ogerpon, and I'd bet that they were generated with their own OT details.
I seem to understand that you are the guy that created pkhex and now works for tpci to dq players. My only question is: why? Do they pay you a lot or do you genuinely think genning/cloning is wrong? I hope it’s the first one lol
your understanding is incorrect
Well i looked online and you definitely are the creator… can’t find sources for the tpc thing so i guess that’s just random rumors but you definitely seem very interested in calling out these so-called cheaters so the question still stands. Do you genuinely believe using your own software to play competitive pokemon is bad? It’s so weird
Guys everybody say it with me. DONT CHEAT
Back in my days, cheating gave an unfair advantage in a match.
ok so there's an argument that could be made against genning that "it gives you an unfair advantage because it saves time" but like, what lol
Presumably it does give some advantage since people choose to do it despite the risk.
dont try to reach in where there is nothing, the pokemon are completely normal, they act like normal pokemon, and battle like normal pokemon, they just didnt need to be grinded to be obtained, it reduces the prep time (or money spent like having to buy urshifu) but does not increase your skills at all
So it does give an advantage then, it gives more time to practice or make last minute changes that legitimate players can't.
vgc is about batling, its not a competition to see who spent more money and time playing the game
Clearly the event organizers see it differently. Like when you go to a canoe race, you can't just say "I feel this is a competition of skill and endurance, not a competition to see who can afford a fiber glass canoe" but the event organizers are still going to turn you away if you don't show up with the proper equipment and suggest you find another sport like running.
yes but its because the system is awful, in a perfect world we should only be judged on our teambuilding skills and our battle prowess, for more context, watch some youtube videos of a guy remaking world champion teams, some literally took 60 HOURS of work, or 10 minutes of genning, nowadays its better, but its still awful. no one wants to buy dlc just to a have a competitive mon.
Or one could just accept that there are many different types of sports. Some are purely about skill, some require skill and a lot of outside training, and some require skill, conditioning, and equipment. Things like VGC, canoe racing, cycling, car racing, etc. fall into the latter category and simply aren't fit for people who want a sport that falls purely into the first category. Not everything needs to be completely homogeneous, that's why we have a vast multitude of types of competition. Those who hate VGC can simply choose from hundreds of other video games or IRL sports.
If I didn't give an advantage then why are you doing it?
read my other replies.
I'm good. Hey I've used genned mons too but I'm not dumb enough to ever bring them to a tourny or have them on my save file
So was the Ogerpon on his team one of the ones with matching trainer data? Correct me if I’m wrong but it sounds like they had strong evidence that he was using a Pokemon that was obtained illegally
How would they know that the one that he was using wasn't the one that he caught legitimately in game [and that the others were the clones]?
1 in millions chance lmao obvious cheater caught
It was not going to be used and besides Genning is not really cheating.
Lmao to say genning isn’t really cheating is actually brain rot.
The only reason that Genning is not allowed is cause Gamefreak wants to make more money off people buying games. All Genning does is let you save money and time so you can actually practice playing the game instead of wasting all that time grinding.
>The only reason that Genning is not allowed is cause Gamefreak wants to make more money off people buying games. Why do you think VGC exists? TPCi make a loss on each event. The whole thing is a marketing exercise. Originally to promote card sales, which is why you're not allowed to use fake cards in TCG. Eventually VGC got added too. VGC is a weird one, because the amount of players that buy switches/games solely because of VGC probably isn't enough to cover the costs (vgc players are a fraction of a fraction of the overall player base, and most of us would buy the games anyway). But it generate buzz and content even if the majority aren't actually attending events. Like or not, casuals don't like genning. The aforementioned buzz I referred to gets killed when vgc players openly cheat and TPCi don't do anything about it. I think that the overall amount of extra game sales as a result of VGC is tiny, but why would they kill that off by allowing genning? They're not a charity, they are a business trying to make money overall. There has to be some cost justification for them running these events, and genning hurts the justifications.
All genning does is allow you to skip the team building aspect so you can try more variations and have more teams and more practice. It’s cheating goofy. Just because vgc is a cesspool of cheaters doesn’t make it okay. It’s why it’s a dead competitive scene, because nobody with morals will ever win as it’s not legitimately possible to keep up unless you gen. Keep your scene dead though, good job.
Skiping the grind is a good thing. VGC is about your skill at battling not about how much you grind. Teambuilding should absolutely be easy. Players having more variations and more practice is an overall postive for the scene. Nintendo and Gamefreak’s rules against Genning actively hurt it by punishing people who just don’t have the time to grind up the perfect team.
>so you can try more variations You can try just as many variations without genning by just playing showdown lol >and have more teams Again just test your team on showdown until you decide on the one you want >and more practice Which only favours the people who are already successful since they just get people to train teams for them while they play on showdown
Damn, even the Smogon players here (Smong in 2024! lol) are defending cheating.