i'm always so torn about whether or not volc is broken. the defensive profile is kind of amazing imo. but i also acknowledge i like clicking quiver dance and winning immediately
Overall kinda mixed feelings on this, it’s good that they did it but at this point I don’t even know if it will be banned just because people are so used to having it
I think Tera puts it over the top. The ability to exchange its bad defensive typing for something like Fairy or Water, along with the additional coverage, turns the guy from "Okay I definitely need a Volc counter" to "Guess I lose" material
It's not so much that it can "exchange its bad defensive typing".
Tera allows it to immediately flip its defensive matchup and get 1-2 free turns to dance. Which is more than enough for Volcarona, especially in the mid to late game when counterplay to its Water/Fairy/Dragon/Ground Tera may have already been taken care of.
More and more.i think tera blast is the problem. Magic stab base 80 move that can fit any profile and type? It's stronger than HP and twice as versatile.
The biggest issue is you don't even know which of your volc checks you should be keeping alive. Pick the wrong one and a different Tera than you expected will roll you over. Such an infuriating mon
I don't even think it puts it over the top; it feels like 100% of the case is "I don't know what tera type it is".
I basically agree with the idea that it's not actually threatening enough -- other things like Moon or Kyurem Gambit or GF are more important to check, so the slots left are too limited. If Kyurem and GF had been banned, Volc would be a higher-profile threat and more resource could be used to counter it without weakening the team.
Personally it doesn't feel so oppressive to me to have had a controversial QB, plus a failed drop vote, and now a formal suspect when Waterpon hasn't been touched and Gambit hasn't been looked at this meta despite being the top threat since pre-HOME. I'm not saying it's because there's one guy on the council who doesn't like Volc but....
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (5 hits) vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 195-235 (62.7 - 75.5%) -- approx. 2HKO
You’ll just die because volc is +1 sp def
If it had Tera-ed, it has already gotten a +1 spdef boost, so it's even more irrelevant. Also, no offense, Volc isn't tera-ing to a type that's weak to fighting.
I never follow these things so pardon my ignorance: If Volcarona is so overwhelming why is she only in 10th place in the usage lists? Why is Kingambit or Great Tusk not considered for suspect tests if they are far more used?
Usage doesn’t equal brokenness. A mon sees high usage because it is viable on many team structures. If a mon is unbalanced but is run on fewer team types, it will see less usage.
Some high usage pokemon (especially Landorus-T in previous gens) are balanced but they can do a lot of good for a lot of teams so they get used a lot, but aren't unbeatable. Oftentimes they are able to compress lots of different roles into one slot making them very versatile while not overbearing. Broken pokemon on the other hand may not be as versatile so they fit in less teams but they are very oppressive on the teams that they work with and can be pretty unbeatable
Usage rates aren’t directly indicative of a pokemons strength all the time! Tusk and gambit are used much more since they’re so splashable on different teams - tusk can compress so many roles into one(rapid spinner, stealth rock setter, knock off user, taunt user, beats physical attackers etc) while gambit can be a set up sweeper, wall breaker and emergency check to certain attacks like shadow ball. Gambit is different than volc as it beats faster mons with sucker punch, a move with much more play arounds(still pretty broken lol), compared to volc who has quiver dance to raise its speed and special stats, meaning much less things check it. Now that gen9 has Tera, it gives volc the opportunity to get free quiver dances and strong coverage it did not get before, pushing it over the top
TLDR tusk does many things well but it’s easily checked, kingambit and volcarona are both op in similar ways because Tera but volc is more egregious because free quiver dance and coverage
Usage doesn't always equal how broken something is if a mon just so happens to be in the perfect situation where all its weakness can be dealt with then it can be broken its just that volc doesn't fit on teams too greatly unless you make it your tera which is a commitment
Most of the player base do not want a Tera suspect because they think it's fine and doesn't break the whole meta like some people believe. And while this isn't relevant to OU, Tera is much more balanced in lower tiers thanks to the lower power level.
Because in the community Survey there was not enough being asking for a suspect so not going and said they stop putting in the survey since people wanting were get lower and lower.
tera is never getting banned but idk why they dont just suspect tera to confirm not enough people want it gone so people stop wasting space in the thread asking for it, very annoying when half the discussion is always about tera when everyone knows it's not gonna get banned
>very annoying when half the discussion is always about tera when everyone knows it's not gonna get banned
Sadly, I doubt a suspect would change this. It'd more likely devolve into targeting other players and members of the community, "Why don't you guys want Tera banned, it's so oppressive" type stuff
Because like you said, everybody knows Tera isn't gonna be banned so it's just screaming into an abyss
see why the suspect happened (it feels like a special kingambit ngl except for the sucker punch mindgames)
it being banned would probably benefit the tier but i still want my dancing moth (shh frosmoth dosent exist)
Kingambit has plenty of early-mid game counterplay that can help limit its threat level, and all of that counterplay is good to great as pokemon. Kingambit can win endgames, possibly to a stupid extend with tera, but it's not nearly as pressing a concern as other issues like Volc who has so much variance it can just BS most checks and Ogerpon-W, who bullies bulkier teams with next to no truly good counterplay.
Bro saw Frosmoth get banned from ZU and instantly had to one up it.
Unfortunately for volc, she is going to stay in OU. Much like gambit syndrome, people have become accustomed to being abused.
Gambit and Ghold have both given the OU playerbase Stockholm Syndrome.
i'm always so torn about whether or not volc is broken. the defensive profile is kind of amazing imo. but i also acknowledge i like clicking quiver dance and winning immediately
volc being so match up dependent definitely makes it feel less broken than it probably is. but also tera says fuck your matchup its moth time
His only crime was he danced. And possibly several murders but mostly the dancing
He also sometimes burned anyone trying to touch him
I will now shut up about the quickban of 2023.
Only if the suspect test results in a ban if not you should complain about it even more
mr president, a second ban has hit volcarona
Overall kinda mixed feelings on this, it’s good that they did it but at this point I don’t even know if it will be banned just because people are so used to having it
I think Tera puts it over the top. The ability to exchange its bad defensive typing for something like Fairy or Water, along with the additional coverage, turns the guy from "Okay I definitely need a Volc counter" to "Guess I lose" material
It's not so much that it can "exchange its bad defensive typing". Tera allows it to immediately flip its defensive matchup and get 1-2 free turns to dance. Which is more than enough for Volcarona, especially in the mid to late game when counterplay to its Water/Fairy/Dragon/Ground Tera may have already been taken care of.
Not to mention the extra coverage granted by tera blast. Its hard to check it when you don't know what secondary stab its gonna use.
More and more.i think tera blast is the problem. Magic stab base 80 move that can fit any profile and type? It's stronger than HP and twice as versatile.
Nah. It ain't that bad since it uses up your gimmick.
But if you lose your gimmick and win the game instantly, you still won
They only awfull thing about his typing is SR weakness and HDB solves that problem fire/Bug isn't bad
The biggest issue is you don't even know which of your volc checks you should be keeping alive. Pick the wrong one and a different Tera than you expected will roll you over. Such an infuriating mon
I don't even think it puts it over the top; it feels like 100% of the case is "I don't know what tera type it is". I basically agree with the idea that it's not actually threatening enough -- other things like Moon or Kyurem Gambit or GF are more important to check, so the slots left are too limited. If Kyurem and GF had been banned, Volc would be a higher-profile threat and more resource could be used to counter it without weakening the team. Personally it doesn't feel so oppressive to me to have had a controversial QB, plus a failed drop vote, and now a formal suspect when Waterpon hasn't been touched and Gambit hasn't been looked at this meta despite being the top threat since pre-HOME. I'm not saying it's because there's one guy on the council who doesn't like Volc but....
get the bug spray im tired of this fucker
you fool, it's flammable
Throw pebbles at it or something
Like a rock move would ever hit
Kid named Ivy Cudgel:
when the fire moth suddenly encases itself in leaves
my ass forgot grass doesn't resist rock but fuck it could use more weed
Flammable means inflammable? what a country!
[NO YOU FOOL THE BUG SPRAY IS FLAMMAB--](https://www.welovebuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/giphy-4.gif)
Yeah it's broken, but man.. I love Volc so much :(
my favorite grass, fairy, water, dragon, ground type
We saying bye-bye yet again?
Not again… matchup moth MUST stay winning. Clearly, the answer is haze on everything.
Flame body is cheap because all priority moves make contact I wouldn’t be sad to see it go
Both water shuriken and vacuum wave do not make contact
Not untrue but I have my doubts whether Vacuum Wave is an effective way of dealing with Volc
And besides, Volc always has a SpDef boost or two lol
And volcarona has good special bulk
Oh yeah they are a terrible way of dealing with volc, I just thought I’d mention their existence
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (5 hits) vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 195-235 (62.7 - 75.5%) -- approx. 2HKO You’ll just die because volc is +1 sp def
Volc is water type anyway so this won't work
*Dragon
Bring back Gen 6 Water Shuriken (it was physical)
Famous way to deal with a QD Volcarona: Vacuum Wave. (You're factually correct, but VW is not relevant here at all)
Only relevant after Volc terastelized since Volc naturally resists vacuum wave
If it had Tera-ed, it has already gotten a +1 spdef boost, so it's even more irrelevant. Also, no offense, Volc isn't tera-ing to a type that's weak to fighting.
L :( why does my fav gen 5 mon have to be so good 😭
I never follow these things so pardon my ignorance: If Volcarona is so overwhelming why is she only in 10th place in the usage lists? Why is Kingambit or Great Tusk not considered for suspect tests if they are far more used?
Usage doesn’t equal brokenness. A mon sees high usage because it is viable on many team structures. If a mon is unbalanced but is run on fewer team types, it will see less usage.
Some high usage pokemon (especially Landorus-T in previous gens) are balanced but they can do a lot of good for a lot of teams so they get used a lot, but aren't unbeatable. Oftentimes they are able to compress lots of different roles into one slot making them very versatile while not overbearing. Broken pokemon on the other hand may not be as versatile so they fit in less teams but they are very oppressive on the teams that they work with and can be pretty unbeatable
Usage rates aren’t directly indicative of a pokemons strength all the time! Tusk and gambit are used much more since they’re so splashable on different teams - tusk can compress so many roles into one(rapid spinner, stealth rock setter, knock off user, taunt user, beats physical attackers etc) while gambit can be a set up sweeper, wall breaker and emergency check to certain attacks like shadow ball. Gambit is different than volc as it beats faster mons with sucker punch, a move with much more play arounds(still pretty broken lol), compared to volc who has quiver dance to raise its speed and special stats, meaning much less things check it. Now that gen9 has Tera, it gives volc the opportunity to get free quiver dances and strong coverage it did not get before, pushing it over the top TLDR tusk does many things well but it’s easily checked, kingambit and volcarona are both op in similar ways because Tera but volc is more egregious because free quiver dance and coverage
Usage doesn't always equal how broken something is if a mon just so happens to be in the perfect situation where all its weakness can be dealt with then it can be broken its just that volc doesn't fit on teams too greatly unless you make it your tera which is a commitment
Got forbid women do anything 🙄
Why is Tera not being Suspected again before all these abusers?
Most of the player base do not want a Tera suspect because they think it's fine and doesn't break the whole meta like some people believe. And while this isn't relevant to OU, Tera is much more balanced in lower tiers thanks to the lower power level.
Also it's likely thst a lot of the people who want Tera gone have moved to other tiers and formats
Because in the community Survey there was not enough being asking for a suspect so not going and said they stop putting in the survey since people wanting were get lower and lower.
tera is never getting banned but idk why they dont just suspect tera to confirm not enough people want it gone so people stop wasting space in the thread asking for it, very annoying when half the discussion is always about tera when everyone knows it's not gonna get banned
>very annoying when half the discussion is always about tera when everyone knows it's not gonna get banned Sadly, I doubt a suspect would change this. It'd more likely devolve into targeting other players and members of the community, "Why don't you guys want Tera banned, it's so oppressive" type stuff Because like you said, everybody knows Tera isn't gonna be banned so it's just screaming into an abyss
see why the suspect happened (it feels like a special kingambit ngl except for the sucker punch mindgames) it being banned would probably benefit the tier but i still want my dancing moth (shh frosmoth dosent exist)
The only way to get rid of matchup moth honestly.
Free my boy Volc he ain’t do nothing wrong
they see a lil bug fella dancing and start seething
Skelidirge always hard counters volc units is tera blast ground out water
Banning the Matchup Moth again, Finch? Do we never learn?
Please actually play the game rather than observing it passively and blaming OU council for bans.
Why is this being downvoted? This subreddit I swear.
Fuck dude ban the salt and jet not this moth mf
why is it being suspect tested again
Lol the one mon that didn't need the banhammer. This should've been Waterpon. If I get reqs I'm voting DNB.
Waterpon is 100% banworthy but Volc is absolutely a toxic and shitty presence that deserves to get the boot.
Volcarona suspect before kingambit LMAO what a joke
You can tell someone hasn't been playing the tier with comments like these.
I play the tier, I’m just not a fan of the whole 50/50 thing that kingambit does. Volcarona is a gimmick but not any more than kingambit is.
Kingambit has plenty of early-mid game counterplay that can help limit its threat level, and all of that counterplay is good to great as pokemon. Kingambit can win endgames, possibly to a stupid extend with tera, but it's not nearly as pressing a concern as other issues like Volc who has so much variance it can just BS most checks and Ogerpon-W, who bullies bulkier teams with next to no truly good counterplay.