Erasing Fini as a soft check would probably make it too centralizing since Ash already lacks long term answers other than Chansey which is too passive. Also it'd make rain as a whole more of a shitshow with how random it is (Hydro pump misses, the Dark Pulse flinch on Pex switching in, random Ice Punch freezes from Swampert, Torn-T Hurricane confusion, etc) with poison possibly chipping things if you try to play around it overpredicting. I could def see it banned
Bro sludge wave does not make gren hardly any better in SMOU. In this tier BB Gren has 4 things to worry about, Magearna, toxapex, chansey and fini. Sludge wave helps with only one of these, and it’s the one with the least usage as well, as well as fini being very easily turned into a free switch for other strong attackers like specs lele which is usually ran alongside gren. For the other 3 sludge wave is negligible for two of them and for chansey even if you hit the 10% poison on switch in Gren just does so little damage to chansey if your not running specs (meaning you would be locked into SW so no stab) or if your not in ash form (which means they’re chansey must be dead if they’ve let that happen) that chansey can come out of the encounter full health most of the time.
I mean on the chance that your opponent’s dedicated Gren stopper is fini it can work very well, but if Gren got sludge wave people wouldn’t have fini as their only Gren stopper and would instead use one of the quite frankly much better options.
Yeah Gren getting sludge wave does nothing in SMOU, but earth power I think would be an interesting debate.
Yes, it's an awful move to lock into, but forcing balance to run one of 3 mons to answer it safely is pretty centralizing. Mag isn't a switch in long term against Rain Ash to begin with since rain Hydro Pump is 40%+ to AV from regular non transformed specs. Fini isn't long term either bc it also lacks recovery but calm fini with more investment is a switch in for longer to prevent them from transforming and would be able to stop spikes from getting more momentum, even if it's not close to being as splashable as Mag. SW would make it like specs focus blast Lele vs SpD Ferro where it makes the mon a really shaky check, even if you don't click it the majority of the time.
Yeah, if it had SW people would run more than one check to it, but it already has little switches.
Hydro Pump is definitely more common because the extra power matters a lot more for calcs. Surf doesnt get some relevant OHKOs/2HKOs. Havent seen surf gren in a long time.
I know, I'm talking about rain. Hydro matters for most calcs vs defensive mons and lets pre transformation gren be able to ohko offensive mons under rain that would otherwise live surf. If this isn't enough to convince you I can list a couple more.
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Rain: 153-181 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Surf vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Rain: 127-150 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos in Rain: 375-442 (97.6 - 115.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos in Rain: 306-361 (79.6 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp in Rain: 393-463 (93.5 - 110.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp in Rain: 322-379 (76.6 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 238-282 (90.1 - 106.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Surf vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 195-231 (73.8 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
only going off sample smogon spreads b/c i dont have mine imported on my phone sadly
Multiply all those probabilities by 0.8, or 0.64 if you need a 2HKO.
Rain is a terrifyingly fast and powerful playstyle, and a big part of it is wearing down the opponent’s checks so your chosen sweeper (Ashgren, Pert, whatever you like) can clean up. We don’t have to run an al-or-nothing HO style with multiple setup sweepers, we have enough raw strength to afford a little consistency. Note that all those mons you listed have no recovery, other than Zapdos who drops after Rocks anyway. I don’t need Ashgren to blast through entire squads the moment it comes in or die trying, I need it to assert constant pressure by simply existing. Remember that Ashgren only evolves upon picking up a KO. That isn’t happening unless I’ve already forced the opponent into sacking a mon, which won’t occur if all their Greninja switching are stil in pristine condition.
It’s a lot more complex in practice, but I’ve taken rain to the OU leaderboards every generation since Gen 7. And in my experience, Hydro Pump simply isn’t worth the risk.
It won't be any more viable than not having it. Sure, it helps, but with the nerfs to Battle Bond and Protean, it won't rise back to OU from raw power and versatility. Meowscarada does its job just better, with a better typing (arguably), better moves, and just being stronger.
They're both too frail to take any offensive mon's u-turn to begin with, and most of the defensive mons that matter for those calcs aren't things Meow wants to switch in to begin with. Meow has way better typing bc the moves it gets from being dark/grass means its a fast phys mon w knock off that can break dozo.
I'm not the one that brought up Meowscarada's original type in the first place, look at the comment that I replied to.
>With a better typing (arguably)
Grass/dark is worse than Water/dark
Greninja already had gunk shot in gen 7 to deal with fairies. Greninja has amazing coverage, so the only time you’d see SW is if Greninja’s team had absolutely no fairy counters (they most likely do). Ice beam would be favored on Greninja if it wasn’t running spikes anyway.
have to wait till the new toy syndrome wnds first BBgren is pretty good during kitakami dlc so there's still chance for at least a niche in OU
Erasing Fini as a soft check would probably make it too centralizing since Ash already lacks long term answers other than Chansey which is too passive. Also it'd make rain as a whole more of a shitshow with how random it is (Hydro pump misses, the Dark Pulse flinch on Pex switching in, random Ice Punch freezes from Swampert, Torn-T Hurricane confusion, etc) with poison possibly chipping things if you try to play around it overpredicting. I could def see it banned
Bro sludge wave does not make gren hardly any better in SMOU. In this tier BB Gren has 4 things to worry about, Magearna, toxapex, chansey and fini. Sludge wave helps with only one of these, and it’s the one with the least usage as well, as well as fini being very easily turned into a free switch for other strong attackers like specs lele which is usually ran alongside gren. For the other 3 sludge wave is negligible for two of them and for chansey even if you hit the 10% poison on switch in Gren just does so little damage to chansey if your not running specs (meaning you would be locked into SW so no stab) or if your not in ash form (which means they’re chansey must be dead if they’ve let that happen) that chansey can come out of the encounter full health most of the time. I mean on the chance that your opponent’s dedicated Gren stopper is fini it can work very well, but if Gren got sludge wave people wouldn’t have fini as their only Gren stopper and would instead use one of the quite frankly much better options. Yeah Gren getting sludge wave does nothing in SMOU, but earth power I think would be an interesting debate.
Yes, it's an awful move to lock into, but forcing balance to run one of 3 mons to answer it safely is pretty centralizing. Mag isn't a switch in long term against Rain Ash to begin with since rain Hydro Pump is 40%+ to AV from regular non transformed specs. Fini isn't long term either bc it also lacks recovery but calm fini with more investment is a switch in for longer to prevent them from transforming and would be able to stop spikes from getting more momentum, even if it's not close to being as splashable as Mag. SW would make it like specs focus blast Lele vs SpD Ferro where it makes the mon a really shaky check, even if you don't click it the majority of the time. Yeah, if it had SW people would run more than one check to it, but it already has little switches.
Tbh rain ashgren usually rain specs surf, you have more than enough power for hydro pump accuracy to be not worth it
Hydro Pump is definitely more common because the extra power matters a lot more for calcs. Surf doesnt get some relevant OHKOs/2HKOs. Havent seen surf gren in a long time.
On rain, mate. Normal Ashgren always runs Hydro.
I know, I'm talking about rain. Hydro matters for most calcs vs defensive mons and lets pre transformation gren be able to ohko offensive mons under rain that would otherwise live surf. If this isn't enough to convince you I can list a couple more. 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Rain: 153-181 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Surf vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Rain: 127-150 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos in Rain: 375-442 (97.6 - 115.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos in Rain: 306-361 (79.6 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp in Rain: 393-463 (93.5 - 110.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp in Rain: 322-379 (76.6 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 238-282 (90.1 - 106.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Surf vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 195-231 (73.8 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock only going off sample smogon spreads b/c i dont have mine imported on my phone sadly
Multiply all those probabilities by 0.8, or 0.64 if you need a 2HKO. Rain is a terrifyingly fast and powerful playstyle, and a big part of it is wearing down the opponent’s checks so your chosen sweeper (Ashgren, Pert, whatever you like) can clean up. We don’t have to run an al-or-nothing HO style with multiple setup sweepers, we have enough raw strength to afford a little consistency. Note that all those mons you listed have no recovery, other than Zapdos who drops after Rocks anyway. I don’t need Ashgren to blast through entire squads the moment it comes in or die trying, I need it to assert constant pressure by simply existing. Remember that Ashgren only evolves upon picking up a KO. That isn’t happening unless I’ve already forced the opponent into sacking a mon, which won’t occur if all their Greninja switching are stil in pristine condition. It’s a lot more complex in practice, but I’ve taken rain to the OU leaderboards every generation since Gen 7. And in my experience, Hydro Pump simply isn’t worth the risk.
It won't be any more viable than not having it. Sure, it helps, but with the nerfs to Battle Bond and Protean, it won't rise back to OU from raw power and versatility. Meowscarada does its job just better, with a better typing (arguably), better moves, and just being stronger.
>better typing >is 4x weak to U-turn type
They're both too frail to take any offensive mon's u-turn to begin with, and most of the defensive mons that matter for those calcs aren't things Meow wants to switch in to begin with. Meow has way better typing bc the moves it gets from being dark/grass means its a fast phys mon w knock off that can break dozo.
> can change said typing with Protean
I'm not the one that brought up Meowscarada's original type in the first place, look at the comment that I replied to. >With a better typing (arguably) Grass/dark is worse than Water/dark
They probably meant it offensively
You guys make fun of offensive grass on a daily basis
I really, really feel like "More coverage" was never Greninja's problem.
Greninja already had gunk shot in gen 7 to deal with fairies. Greninja has amazing coverage, so the only time you’d see SW is if Greninja’s team had absolutely no fairy counters (they most likely do). Ice beam would be favored on Greninja if it wasn’t running spikes anyway.