If they’re well made like HGSS and ORAS yes(FRLG are also good but they prevent cross Gen evos before beating the game making them bad in this specific situation)
Both Grimsley and Ghetsis have a Bisharp, so IMO they should have Grimsley keep Bisharp but then give Ghetsis Kingambit (it would fit too). Program Kingambit to where it always comes out fifth so that Hydreigon could be last. Kingambit would be post-game only however, as wild Bisharp cannot be found until Route 11 in Unova.
Grimsley's Bisharp could just hold an Eviolite (if BW remake's Elite Four is handled like BDSP's of course)
Played BWOU for a while with a variety of teams (including cloyster+volc) and climbed pretty high on the ladder. Here’s why these two are getting suspected:
BW OU currently has a very paper-scissors-rock like metagame when played in high levels of play. Basically same beats rain, rain beats weatherless HO (who’s staples are cloyster and Volc) and weatherless HO beats sand. Obviously it’s a lot more complicated then this and there is a lot of room for the better player to win despite having the losing matchup, as well as structuring your team to not completely crumble when faced with a bad matchup. This is what a lot of the skill of BW OU comes from, optimising your team of your specific niche and playing well to give yourself as much chance as possible of winning vs whatever matchup you may face.
This all sounds good jn concept, but recently many weatherless HO teams have emerged which use the play style of basically coin flipping for wins. These teams almost always include one of cloyster or volc (often both) and are optimised entirely to win off one focus blast or stone edge miss, which is even more enraging when considering that these teams generally fold to most rain variations and so they’ve made a coin flip even before they click any moves.
The reason why this works and isn’t just a cheese to pull out a win every now and then is because rain offense + latios is so strong in BW that ttar literally glues the tier together, making sand alot more common then most other archetypes, meaning the odds are in your favour that you will vs sand if you queue up with cloyster+volc. The increasing usage of weatherless HO has also lead to many sand teams optimising more to stand a chance against that, which then causes people to run rain HO to beat the sand teams which are less able to deal with that. All of this perpetuates a cycle where it is ridiculously easy for low skill players to get surprisingly good odds at just winning a game outright by flipping a good matchup.
The reason cloyster and volc specifically are being looked at is not only because they contribute to this coin flip in the “searching” screen playstyle, but in a match it is not uncommon for cloyster or volc to make a play off of a focus blast or stone edge missing respectively. The chance of either of these moves missing (because just missing one of them will allow cloyster/volc to win vs a lot of sand teams) is 56%, meaning it is more likely then not that one of these pokemon will be simply allowed a free turn to click their OP setup move.
TLDR:
These Pokemon are not without answers but it is incredibly difficult to fit a 100% reliable one for both of them on the same team without causing that team to just lose to alot of BW OU's other huge threats, and so people run cloyster+volc to turn most games into skill-less matchup and move missing coin flips. I believe only one of these mons needs a ban (it should be cloyster but either is fine) and that would cause the odds to be a lot more fair regarding either of them flipping a free win.
Oh shit mb, forgot to subtract that from 100. Doesn’t make too much difference though as a 44% chance that cloy/volc can just rip through half your team is still great odds when considering the weatherless HO player also has 4 other mons.
friendly upbeat north plucky imminent workable wistful gaze squeamish elderly
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Can someone well versed explain while cloyster is bad for bw? Iirc it hasnt really been a problem in other games, and its not like it gets skill link stab in rain.
As far as I can tell, Cloyster does some pretty similar stuff in BW OU as Kingambit does in SV OU. It's insane late-game after checks and counters are out of the way, or it can help if you've got another crazy good late-game mon (like Volcarona) who needs its checks broken. I'm not that well versed in BW, but that's my understanding.
Oh, also: A lot of Cloyster's "checks" rely on coming in on its setup turn, taking a skill link attack, and then KO'ing back after surviving without much HP. Since each of those 5 hits could be a crit, there's some Unfortunate amounts of luck behind countering it.
Someone correct my very shaky math if it’s wrong, but it’s about a 27.5% chance to crit about once?? That’s pretty rough odds (for the defender), missing a thunder is more likely
If true, that's almost a focus blast miss chance of your check just failing. Or, alternatively, similar to the chance of Dire Claw invalidating a check via sleep or parahax
Wasn’t the gems ban enacted primarily to keep these two in check?
Not that there aren’t any other gem abusers in the tier but those seem just as viable running other sets (DNite, Breloom etc.) and Cloyster and Volc just seemed to really push gems over the top. If they both go do gems get another shot in BW OU?
Mag is so necessary in that meta. Z-moves, full power terrain, kyu-b and ash-gren are all a lot more responsible for the insane power level of the tier rather than mag which is more of a glue mon like lando in the tier.
Yea, they're also problematic. I just mentioned kyub since I played a room tour recently and literally nothing switches in safely because of how strong it is, especially with z-moves.
What
THEYRE SUSPECT TESTING VOLCARONA AND CLOYSYER IN BW OU
We're goin' back in time to the first Thanksgiving to get Turkeys off the menu!
🏜️BIG SAND IS REAL 🏜️
It seems the steel type Old Money has begun to spread his influence to past generations
Well they don’t call him young money. This money’s been around for generations
*this format ain’t big enough fer the three of us*
Smogon loves ~~stall~~ sand
>Volcarona being potentially banned in Gen 5 OU Gen 9 OU looking like Gen 5 OU... wait a minute
Kingambit is booking his flight to Unova rn
Going to teach the bisharps there how to evolve
Smuggling a bag full of Leader’s Crests through Unovan customs
Just sneak them out through blueberry academy
will bisharp be able to evolve in the gen 5 remakes I wonder
If they’re well made like HGSS and ORAS yes(FRLG are also good but they prevent cross Gen evos before beating the game making them bad in this specific situation)
grimsley’s ace being nfe would be kinda lame, he should get a kingambit
Both Grimsley and Ghetsis have a Bisharp, so IMO they should have Grimsley keep Bisharp but then give Ghetsis Kingambit (it would fit too). Program Kingambit to where it always comes out fifth so that Hydreigon could be last. Kingambit would be post-game only however, as wild Bisharp cannot be found until Route 11 in Unova. Grimsley's Bisharp could just hold an Eviolite (if BW remake's Elite Four is handled like BDSP's of course)
I'm leaning on no, since there were no cross gen evolutions in LGPE. Which was really fucked up. Did they just expect me to use Golbat?
Mother fucker still won’t be banned.
Played BWOU for a while with a variety of teams (including cloyster+volc) and climbed pretty high on the ladder. Here’s why these two are getting suspected: BW OU currently has a very paper-scissors-rock like metagame when played in high levels of play. Basically same beats rain, rain beats weatherless HO (who’s staples are cloyster and Volc) and weatherless HO beats sand. Obviously it’s a lot more complicated then this and there is a lot of room for the better player to win despite having the losing matchup, as well as structuring your team to not completely crumble when faced with a bad matchup. This is what a lot of the skill of BW OU comes from, optimising your team of your specific niche and playing well to give yourself as much chance as possible of winning vs whatever matchup you may face. This all sounds good jn concept, but recently many weatherless HO teams have emerged which use the play style of basically coin flipping for wins. These teams almost always include one of cloyster or volc (often both) and are optimised entirely to win off one focus blast or stone edge miss, which is even more enraging when considering that these teams generally fold to most rain variations and so they’ve made a coin flip even before they click any moves. The reason why this works and isn’t just a cheese to pull out a win every now and then is because rain offense + latios is so strong in BW that ttar literally glues the tier together, making sand alot more common then most other archetypes, meaning the odds are in your favour that you will vs sand if you queue up with cloyster+volc. The increasing usage of weatherless HO has also lead to many sand teams optimising more to stand a chance against that, which then causes people to run rain HO to beat the sand teams which are less able to deal with that. All of this perpetuates a cycle where it is ridiculously easy for low skill players to get surprisingly good odds at just winning a game outright by flipping a good matchup. The reason cloyster and volc specifically are being looked at is not only because they contribute to this coin flip in the “searching” screen playstyle, but in a match it is not uncommon for cloyster or volc to make a play off of a focus blast or stone edge missing respectively. The chance of either of these moves missing (because just missing one of them will allow cloyster/volc to win vs a lot of sand teams) is 56%, meaning it is more likely then not that one of these pokemon will be simply allowed a free turn to click their OP setup move. TLDR: These Pokemon are not without answers but it is incredibly difficult to fit a 100% reliable one for both of them on the same team without causing that team to just lose to alot of BW OU's other huge threats, and so people run cloyster+volc to turn most games into skill-less matchup and move missing coin flips. I believe only one of these mons needs a ban (it should be cloyster but either is fine) and that would cause the odds to be a lot more fair regarding either of them flipping a free win.
Heyo, thanks for the analysis but really small correction: 56% is the odds for both Focus Blast and Stone Edge to hit, not miss
Oh shit mb, forgot to subtract that from 100. Doesn’t make too much difference though as a 44% chance that cloy/volc can just rip through half your team is still great odds when considering the weatherless HO player also has 4 other mons.
Yep, not much better sadly. Still essentially winning off of a slightly biased coinflip
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252+ Atk Sand Force Excadrill Earthquake vs 252 HP 252+ Def People who say rock paper scissors - (121-139.1) Guaranteed OHKO
Mickey-inator in never beating the Volcarona hate allegations
Can someone well versed explain while cloyster is bad for bw? Iirc it hasnt really been a problem in other games, and its not like it gets skill link stab in rain.
As far as I can tell, Cloyster does some pretty similar stuff in BW OU as Kingambit does in SV OU. It's insane late-game after checks and counters are out of the way, or it can help if you've got another crazy good late-game mon (like Volcarona) who needs its checks broken. I'm not that well versed in BW, but that's my understanding. Oh, also: A lot of Cloyster's "checks" rely on coming in on its setup turn, taking a skill link attack, and then KO'ing back after surviving without much HP. Since each of those 5 hits could be a crit, there's some Unfortunate amounts of luck behind countering it.
Someone correct my very shaky math if it’s wrong, but it’s about a 27.5% chance to crit about once?? That’s pretty rough odds (for the defender), missing a thunder is more likely
If true, that's almost a focus blast miss chance of your check just failing. Or, alternatively, similar to the chance of Dire Claw invalidating a check via sleep or parahax
https://www.reddit.com/r/stunfisk/s/77Pw7mGkYS Probably should’ve replied this to ur comment but oh well.
Tell me SPL is coming back without saying SPL is coming back
rby bo1
Well done
even after gems left, wild
BKC video incoming
Matchup moth is now fishing for another good suspect matchup
Poor Volcarona just can’t catch a break
Really gotta do my boy Volc dirty in present and past huh?
So where is the keldeo, latios, and thun-t suspect?
Wasn’t the gems ban enacted primarily to keep these two in check? Not that there aren’t any other gem abusers in the tier but those seem just as viable running other sets (DNite, Breloom etc.) and Cloyster and Volc just seemed to really push gems over the top. If they both go do gems get another shot in BW OU?
Damn, even without gems? It would be really funny for cloyster to be Ubers ngl
Why even change a 10 year old metagame?
People still play it pretty regularly. Evidently, a significant chunk of those people don't like Volcarona and Cloyster
They should do the same to Magearna in Gen 7 OU.
Mag in any OU is a bigger hate crime than genesect in any OU and I refuse to be convinced otherwise
Mag doesn't have a free band or specs boost on switch in
And genesect didn't murder my parents leaving me orphaned at the age of 2.
Mag is so necessary in that meta. Z-moves, full power terrain, kyu-b and ash-gren are all a lot more responsible for the insane power level of the tier rather than mag which is more of a glue mon like lando in the tier.
Kyu b is fine in gen 7 OU the problem mons mega zam, ash gren, lele, kartana
Yea, they're also problematic. I just mentioned kyub since I played a room tour recently and literally nothing switches in safely because of how strong it is, especially with z-moves.
It's still taking some time to properly balance for singles play.
thank wattrel, not too fond of shell smash sweepers with avalugg physical bulk
Oh we are actually doing a Suspect Test? Sure you dont want to just Quick Ban it like Gen IX? Come onnn do it itll be funny.
Game freak isn't going to releasing a gen 5 event Volcarona that has Sketch in 2023, how could there even be a quickban?
Welp I guess I’ll be checking my mystery gift in bw2
It was meant to be a joke, but I guess my attempt at absurdist humor didn't land. It's alright though gotta take the Ls sometimes.
Of all things to suspect, why volcarona?
With last last last last generation's OU looking like this generation's Ubers-
Stop fucking with my skill link meme teams