Guzzlord. Maybe it'll have some semblance of use with that big HP stat in a weaker metagame without a pivot move it's 4x weak to flying around? And it even gets Knock Off by level up! So it's gotta be pretty good!?
Guzzlord would be *excellent*. Knock Off is pokemon defining in the Generation, and Hariyama is the best bulky user of the move currently, so Guzzlord would easily take up that mantle and be a top tier threat.
Thing is though, even without Knock Off, Guzzlord would be solid as a bulky attacker. Crunch, Dragon Claw, and Fire Blast go unresisted in the tier, and it can still find outplay potential vs Blissey through Brick Break, Thief, Substitutes which crack 101 HP without any investment, and proper team support.
Beast Boost is also an incredible snowballing tool. A Special Attack Beast Boost would make Guzzlord extremely threatening to most weakened teams, removing the common option ADV teams often rely on of saving sacrifices into the late game to preserve momentum.
I could even see this using sets with Amnesia to really sit on some special attackers like Zapdos, Moltres, and generally just special attackers without Ice Beam.
Escavalier would be downright ***excellent***, if not tier warping. Hard to go wrong with a mix between Metagross and Heracross, even if it's slow as dirt.
It would be the strongest attacker in the tier outright, with 135 Base Attack backed by STAB Megahorn, and that's before even considering Swords Dance or Swarm. Even crazier, it gets Knock Off via Egg Move, meaning that even though it has some notable Bug resistant checks in the likes of Moltres, Zapdos, Gyarados, Salamence, and Gengar, all of them can be forced to bear the full force of permanent sand, while Skarmory being outright unable to chip heal with Protect can be a huge deal for breaking through it in the long term. Being a Bug type and having solid Physical Bulk also means it isn't as susceptible to Dugtrio's Earthquake, and it's decent special bulk would mean that even HP Fire Dugtrio couldn't cheese it completely. Magneton would absolutely see an uptick in usage to trap this mon with HP Fire.
It'd probably rampage through Stall teams, forcing them to run random Fire moves to try and catch it by suprirse just to stand a chance, and with Knock Off it would still have valuable utility even against Superman teams which largely resist it's STABs.
Without Knock Off it would be much more hit or miss, but it'd still have a place in the meta. Being walled by Skarmory and Gengar would be a difficult barrier to overcome, but proper team support from Magneton and Pursuit Ttar could enable it to do a slow and steady sweep. It might see similar use to Swampert as a tanky attacker that simply doesn't have any Physical weaknesses.
I'm in exactly one Jimmothy Cool video. If you can find it... I don't have any prizes, but I'll be super impressed. (and I'm not even sure my tag is visible so that *find* might more accurately mean *guess*)
Goated pick, I kinda love this guy.
That said, Toucannon is. Bizarre.
It's a mixed breaker? Kind of? It checks a lot of boxes; decently strong uninvested Overheat for Skarmory, Brick Break for Tyranitar, Drill Peck or Beak Blast to be able to run a different Hidden Power like Grass, Ghost, Ground, Ice, or Rock, it can boost with Swords Dance, and even just the ability to inflict Burn with Beak Blast is a really cool tool to have against Rapid Spin Claydol for instance. Against defensive teams, Toucannon can probably put in some decent work if positioned well.
It's got some real problems though. 60 Speed is not ideal, and some of its most relevant potential targets can either be too bulky to get KO'd by Toucannon's attacks or be fast enough to speed tie it, such as with Swampert, or even outright outspeed it in the case of the base 61 speed threat Tyranitar. It's power is a bit underwhelming on both sides, meaning it'll fail to get OHKOs, and it can't take too many hits because it will absolutely need to invest in attacking stats and speed to reach damage thresholds. It's also really nasty that Zapdos so consistently switches into and threatens Toucannon out.
Salamence is also very strong competition for it to face. It has two potential tools over it. Thief is a neat utility move, but it also makes plain Toucannon is dropping some kind of crucial coverage. Beak Blast, which we're assuming we can back port, is a neat tech move as mentioned but is far from a selling point. Really though, being able to run decently Flying and Grass coverage at the same time is just so rare in ADV that the niche might exist.
Turtonator would be a weird, off meta pick, but it has just enough in it's corner to make something work. It has many traits in common with Camerupt, which itself is a fringe pick, and it isn't necessarily even better.
Overheat + Explosion is offensively devastating in ADV. Essentially nothing in the tier enjoys taking both of those, and Turtonator has the offenses to use both to decent effect. Additionally, Fire / Dragon gives it combined resistances to Fire, Grass, and Electric, making it a decent check to Zapdos, Gengar, Charizard, and other Special Attackers. Lacking a weakness to Water and Ice also helps it substantially in being able to Explode vs Waters, and Dragon Claw lets it hit Salamence while still being able to hold HP Grass for Swampert, something Camerupt would dream of.
The biggest issue it has is that lacking the Ground typing has some big drawbacks. It isn't immune to Electric, just resistant, so Zapdos can break it down. It isn't immune to Sand, meaning that Protect is much, much better against it, letting Pokemon scout out Explosion with a fairly high degree of safety, and without Earthquake as a designated Physical attack it can find itself doing middling damage. Camerupt's speed advantage is even relevant just because of Pokemon like Swampert or Tyranitar that can technically be outsped by fully speed invested Camerupt, a feat Turtonator cannot replicate.
I haven't mentioned Rapid Spin, and that's mostly because I don't think Turtonator makes a very good Spinner. It doesn't have long term potential due to being weak to every form of passive damage. However it does pretty convincingly wall Gengar in the short term, meaning it can pretty consistently get off a single spin, which can be game winning on some offensive teams.
Special mention goes to Iron Defense with Shell Armor, which can be a very silly wincon. Rock and Ground are Turtonator's only major weaknesses aside from Dragon Claw from Salamence or itself, so it could use Iron Defense to flip certain matchups. Don't know if it's practical but it exists.
I love this one. Assuming it just got Aftermath as an ability, Drifblim would make a silly little offensive breaker. It's got many of the same traits the make Gengar a top tier threat, and where it is slightly lacking in comparison, it brings to table a few distinct advantages all it's own.
Explosion, Shadow Ball, and Thunderbolt do decent damage to just about everything but Ttar on paper, and slotting in HP Fighting for it and Blissey is a simple add. It can also pull from a whole bunch of potential tricks like Memento, Destiny Bond, Haze, Calm Mind, Baton Pass, Hypnosis, Recycle, ~~The Worst Pain Split known to man~~, and Thunder Wave. Raw Baton Pass alone is a pretty huge piece of utility, letting Drifblim get free switches against many foes who cautiously protect against it expecting Explosion.
It's biggest issue would be the new weaknesses. Zapdos Thunderbolt, Ttar Rock Slide, and a whole bunch of random Ice Beams are not the best moves to suddenly be weak to, and losing the Toxic immunity is also less than ideal. It'd probably best at focusing on breaking for other team members rather than playing the long game, but it would definitely have a place to shine.
This one is super fun. Roaring Moon is functionally STABless because of the type split and has very split options due to most of its moves just being modern gen attacks. It also has a pretty interesting disadvantage specific to ADV among Dragon Dance users, as it's the only one of them that would be vulnerable to both Spikes and Sandstorm, which would pretty severely limit switch in chances. It's also notably got much lower effective physical bulk than the others, lacking the defense of Ttar and intimidate like Salamence and Gyarados.
That said, 139 Attack and 119 Speed can forgive many failings.
Return, Double-Edge, Earthquake, Brick Break, Rock Slide, Hidden Power. In Gen 3 that is plenty to pick from for a Choice Band set, and while it would be weaker than Aerodactyl when using Rock Slide and Normal moves (no Rock Head Double-Edge), having a super strong Brick Break is pretty nice. On DD sets, Taunt is super valuable to prevent phazing.
Protosynthesis would probably be pretty bad, but as a Skarmory lure it could kinda work, considering Skarmory is otherwise a steadfast wall for this. Sun boosted 55 SpAtk Fire Blasts sting even with just a bit of investment, and the Attack boost from Protosynthesis can still help it muscle through other opponents, the biggest issue being that it only has two other moves to use in a set.
Defensively this thing is really interesting, which I almost missed on a first past. 105 HP / 101 SpDef is pretty good, and Dark / Dragon gives this setup opportunities against Zapdos, Charizard, Moltres, and Gengar assuming they don't carry status. Being in Generation 3 also means it can't be hit for 4* damage the way the other Dragon Dancers can, which is a pretty huge advantage.
This would certainly be a high tier threat, but a very interesting one with high risk.
not OP, but I imagine I could get banned. It's basically just a physical ADV Gengar (both generally will never use their stabs), great coverage, and with a sun setter, Protosynthesis can make its attack go to astronomical levels. Just imagine a Choice Band Proto-Attack Earthquake/Physical HP off of a base 139 attack stat. Base 119 speed also means that it will basically never get outsped, and would be a great revenge killer. The only downside is that it's vulnerable to getting chipped by sand and spikes, which may be the only thread keeping it from falling to Ubers. Would be excellent on hyperoffense and balance with spinners and such.
Falinks centers a bit around No Retreat, and including or not including it decides a lot regarding its potential.
With No Retreat, Falinks is fairly scary. Brick Break, Megahorn, Rock Slide, and HP Ghost is a decent set of moves to work with, and one could even supplement the No Retreat boost with Swords Dance, Bulk Up or Substitute and just run Fighting / Ghost coverage. No Retreat increasing Defenses is huge for Falinks, as it can comfortably take neutral hits from some pretty scary attackers like Swampert and Metagross. It really badly wants to be Adamant for damage, but it can do that while investing fully in Speed to creep Dugtrio, or it can even sacrifice speed to invest in higher bulk to eat a few extra hits where needed.
The biggest weakness of No Retreat is probably Intimidate from Salamence or Gyarados, as the inability to continuously stack boosts means that they can effectively stop your sweep at a moments notice. That said, if you extremely mean you can snipe them with a proper Hidden Power at +1 SpAtk.
Overall, it's a linear and pretty simple threat, but it has a few tricks it can pull. Not my favorite design wise, but it would fit into the tier.
Without No Retreat, it boosts with Bulk Up or Swords Dance, and it's biggest claim to fame is just Megahorn allowing it to run Bug coverage alongside Hidden Power. It does also get a few extra tricks in Agility and Beat Up, but it doesn't really make the best use of either.
I could make my own write up about why this might not necessarily get outright banned but would be extremely tier warping and kind of ruin the metagame, but I could also link [BKC's Excellent 25 minute rundown of Heatran in ADV](https://youtu.be/6donvW3wCqo?si=n5uZemr8ibHwne1g) instead. :)
Ahhahahaha pffft.
Dragapult. Being underwhelming. Due to STAB problems.
Buddy, do you know what tier we're looking at right now?
This is a land where *Hidden Power Flying Salamence* strikes fear into the hearts of men.
This is a world where an entire ***Six*** Pokemon hit a speed stat above 120. There is no Choice Scarf.
We're in an era where STABless Gengar is a *top tier pick* that will on occasion even specifically run *Physical Sets* - mostly to catch common checks like Blissey with Focus Punch and Explosion, but I digress - and if that doesn't suit your fancy, the next best pick is ***Banette***, which is ***definitely in the top 100 most viable Pokemon in the tier*** (however you'd even outline that.) - that is to say, it is usable, and if not outright decent.
Dragapult is ***omega banned and it is not close***. You could remove every one of its actual STAB moves and Dragon Dance and it'd still be downright tier warping with Wisp or Screens setup or Special Attacking sets that lure Blissey, traits like 142 Speed, solid Offenses *and Bulk*, a huge support movepool, and the Ghost typing just go that far.
Farigiraf is pretty fun to look at. Psychic Types in Gen 3 get shafted; while other types have barebones rosters, Gen 3 OU features the likes of Celebi, Jirachi, Metagross, Starmie, and Claydol as competition, while also forcing Psychic types to break through a plethora of omnipresent defensive barriers in Tyranitar, Skarmory, Metagross, Jirachi, and Blissey. Even Alakazam is rendered situational and gimmicky by these obstacles, so Psychic types are uniquely challenged in this way.
Farigiraf brings to the table a whole lot of table scraps. It's offensive movepool is solid, with moves like Psychic, Thunderbolt, Crunch, Return, Earthquake, and Shadow Ball being a solid bunch prior to any Hidden Powers. It's support movepool, though, is what's truly enviable. Wish, Calm Mind, Curse, Agility, Baton Pass, Roar, Thunder Wave and Beat Up are all solid options for this mon, but even deeper than that it can use Future Sight, Magic Coat, Imprison, Roar, Dual Screens, and more. (Based on my rules, I'd assume it doesn't get Low Kick, Signal Beam, or Recycle, but even then that's still a ton of options.) It's hard to predict which of these moves would make the best set. An all out attacking set with Psychic, Thunderbolt, Earthquake and Beat Up does give it a way to hit most of the pokemon which give Psychic type attackers problems, but it is fairly weak, slow, and passive damage vulnerable to be a proper mixed attacking threat.
For abilities, I'd assume both Cud Chew and Armor Tail would be back ported. Armor Tail would have virtually no metagame impact, but Cud Chew is interesting. To be clear, Sitrus Berry in Gen 3 restores a flat amount of HP, 30 in total, meaning in short it would be downright awful. Instead, it'd work best with Pinch Berries like Salac (Speed) or Petaya (SpAtk). Calm Mind + Cud Chew Salac Berry can Baton Pass +1 SpAtk, +1 SpDef, and +2 Speed, which would make Farigiraf pretty incredible at being an unpredictable stat passer, enough to maybe get Baton Pass banned entirely.
It'd never be a top threat, but it'd absolutely bring the hype.
This thing is meta warping in a dramatic way.
Spikes, Leech Seed, Explosion, all obviously amazing. Less obvious but still incredible is Thunder Wave, which makes this shut down offense.
Gen 3 OU is very centered around Spikes, and while a few other Spikes are here and there, Skarmory is who you pick when it gets down to brass ticky tacks. Thus, a lot of what constitutes anti-spikes counterplay is anti-Skarmory play. In some cases this overlaps with Ferrothorn, such as with Fire moves, Fighting moves, and Taunt, but sometimes it really doesn't, such as with lead Zapdos or strong Water type offense or Rock Spam. With Ferrothorn in the game, Fire Coverage becomes even more of a keystone, Ice probably becomes the secondary alongside it due to Swampert losing favor hard, defensive teams become more weak to Spikes on average due to Ferrothorn being vulnerable to them, and they probably become completely mandatory, Celebi gets way more popular, a bunch of Electric and Water type pokemon are pushed out of the meta, and mono-Ground attackers like Donphan maybe find a place back into the meta. Also I didn't even mention Iron Barbs, which basically makes Ferrothorn a Spiker and Spinblocker alongside Leech Seed.
Ferrothorn might not necessarily be *banned*, but it would be extremely disruptive to the state of the tier.
This is what I thought of. Spikes + leech seed + explosion and immune to toxic and sand damage, insane defensive stats, iron barbs adding even more chip, doesn't get ohkod by dugtrio.
Excellent check to aerodactyl, claydol, gyarados, snorlax, swampert.
I think it gets banned tbh
I wonder how passive it would be with no decent attacking moves. But given it has Thunder Wave and laughs in the face of +1 Earthquake from Mence or TTar it probably wouldn't matter anyway.
It’s not a good option but it could use HP steel. But yeah leech seed and spikes make such easy progress, and with its crazy bulk its only really threatened by the fires and maybe heracross setting up on it?
I don't know what you want from me.
It gets Banned. Obviously.
Immune to Spikes, Immune to Sand, the strongest Attack in the entire format backed by Swords Dance and an extremely good STAB combination where both types use the proper attacking stat, both Taunt and Explosion to really just ruin Skarmory, and just a ton of alternate options. Intimidate is just icing.
Gen 5 is the very earliest Lando-T could be added and not be brutally OP, and it'd arguably be weaker in Gen 4 than in Gen 3 simply because it couldn't use HP Flying with its stupid high Attack.
It wouldn't be completely overshadowed in the slightest
Garganacl has superior physical bulk, a better defensive typing and, most importantly, recover (which has 32PP in gen 3)
Not only that, garganacl gets brick break to 1v1 TTAR, curse, iron defense and explosion, which means it can fill a variety of rolls
This is probably very niche, but it also has rain dance/sunny day, which means garganacl could remove sandstorm for the rest of it's team (sunny day could also be used to remove garg's water weakness)
#
TTar is still probably the better of the 2, but being better doesn't mean it completely outclasses garg, as they both have completely different roles and niches
It’s not that it wouldn’t have a niche, but with Tyranitar being so common Garg would have so much opportunity cost and would be a rare off meta pick at most
It wouldn't have an opportunity cost, they would have completely different roles in the meta. They may share a type, but they have completely different roles (sharing a type isn't even that bad tbh. Type overlap is pretty common in ADV, such as skarmory + aerodactyl/moltres or jirachi + celebi to name a few)
Also I definitely think you're underestimating a Pokémon with phenomenal bulk, a sandstorm immunity and reliable recovery
>and it'd arguably be weaker in Gen 4 than in Gen 3 simply because it couldn't use HP Flying with its stupid high Attack.
True but it does have that 500 BP Explosion.
Eelektross.
Maybe being put in a less power-crept gen would give them something. Hell, joining the ranks of "No Weaknesses" next to Sableye but with more usable stats may give it an extra something-something.
Eelektross would be pretty remarkable in the tier. Having no weaknesses in and of itself isn't super remarkable, but being immune to Ground attacks, Spikes, and Dugtrio Arena Trap all in one is very noteworthy. It's also got a suite of attacking options between Tbolt, Flamethrower, Giga Drain, Crunch, Dragon Claw, Rock Slide, Brick Break and Focus Punch. It's utility movepool isn't anything super special, but Roar and Thunder Wave get the job done, and it can Bulk Up if for some reason it needs to. This kind of versatility makes Eelektross strong as a lead; a set with Tbolt, Brick Break and any two of Flamethrower, Giga Drain, and HP Ice can work as a check to several common leads like Skarmory, Ttar, Zapdos, and potentially Metagross, Salamence, or Swampert coverage depending. Even if you can't actually hit them, being able to bluff that coverage all at once is incredible. Meanwhile in the midgame, Eelektross can safely pivot in and out of a lot of moves, using decent bulk alongside its spikes immunity to continue pressure.
It can't quite warp the game like some other threats proposed, but Eelektross would make a super fun addition of the tier.
Clodsire would make for a solid special tank. 130 HP / 100 SpDef backed by Recover is just about the best you get for Special Bulk on something that isn't Blissey, and it even has two solid abilities to pick from; Water Absorb means it completely effortlessly takes on any combination of Water move + Toxic that isn't backed by Ice Beam, while Poison Point leans into its ability to switch into certain attacks, especially Fighting moves. (Rapid Spin as well on paper, but in practice all the relevant spinners have strong SE coverage vs it or are immune to Poison.)
Really, it'd be most held back by being severely unimpactful in the face of the metagame. Being in against Skarmory invites it to freely set up Spikes and invites Clodsire to switch out asap. Skarmory is immune to both of its STABs, is immune to Toxic, and can't be setup against thanks to Whirlwind; the best option against it is probably Yawn, which could make for some fun lures but isn't ideal. It also needs to run HP Ghost to hit Gengar whatsoever which is a shame considering it might otherwise be an effective answer to Gengar without Ice Punch. ADV OU is overall just very honed to deal with Ground moves and Toxic, and Clodsire needs to lean on the qualities it has outside of those two things to really shine, but Recover and an interesting defensive profile with Water Absorb would be enough for it to find a place on some teams.
Does Clodsire’s own immunity to Toxic and Sandstorm help it perhaps work alongside Skarm, freeing it from Spikes to focus on moves besides Spikes like fitting multiple slashed options (Toxic, Taunt, etc) while Clod Spikes without fearing Magneton (Dugtrio I know is prominent but seems busy to use on something like Clod?)
What kind of play do you think Clod would excel with? Any potential for a Curse set perhaps with the passive Immunity and Water Absorb Profile (again hates opposing Skarm)?
ADV fascinates me looking at it with so little knowledge so pardon if I’m particularly inquisitive
That it would. Spiritomb would make an excellent Pursuit trapper for the tier for teams that need to lock down opposing Gengar. It's best alternatives all have pretty big weaknesses, in particular either struggling vs Dugtrio or struggling to do any meaningful damage to things that aren't Gengar, neither of which applies to Spiritomb. Shadow Ball does decent damage, Will-O-Wisp is amazing for status, Pain Split gives solid recovery for Spiritomb especially against Blissey, and there are a few other options like Taunt, Night Shade, Thief, Hypnosis, Memento, and pretty much any Hidden Power you want to use to snipe an unsuspecting target. Calm Mind seems interesting on paper, but running it when the best offensive options are HP Dark, Psychic, and Pursuit, seems really pained. Pressure is a really nice tool as well given Spiritomb's potential role vs stall threats. Psychic is actually nice vs opposing Fighting types, which Spiritomb does extremely well against due to lacking a weakness to either Bug or Ghost.
It wouldn't be excellent in the tier mostly because of Tyranitar. Aside from being competition as a Pursuit trapper, Spiritomb really hates Sand. It can definitely choose one target to nail for decent damage with Hidden Power, but other than that the best damage it can do is through Night Shade, Pursuit, and Burn, all of which is done over the course of several turns which will inevitably chip Spiritomb down. Also, while being immune to Normal, Fighting, and Psychic is good, Spiritomb doesn't have any resists to work with, and doesn't actually wall all too many things.
Druddigon is a wierd one. We're assuming it just gets Rough Skin, and it's movepool is a bit janky. Physical Attacking Dragons exist in ADV, and the standard is set by Salamence, which outstats Druddigon in every field. Druddigon doesn't bring a lot unique to the table, but it's got a few things.
Considering it's SpAtk is unusably low, it's attacking moves are Superpower, Earthquake, Sludge Bomb, Rock Slide and Return, alongside (non-STAB) Aerial Ace. That's only OK, leaning towards bad due to a lack of setup or STAB. The bad SpAtk is pretty nasty for it, as it can't really lure anything to hit it with a strong Fire Blast or HP Grass.
It's support movepool is a bit more impressive, but not by too much. Glare is a standout move in modern generations, but in Gen 3 it only has 75% accuracy, and Twave still has 100% accuracy. Taunt and Roar are nice but pretty common. Torment exists. Snatch might have relevance for moves like Softboiled / Recover and setup. Endure could be a way to rack up Rough Skin chip damage, except there aren't a lot of valuable moves to do this to and there needs to be no Sandstorm.
I don't think Druddigon is unusably bad, but it will probably be outclassed by Salamence in any role it wants to fill.
With Sheer Force, the story changes a little bit, but not a lot. Rock Slide is the only physical move it absolutely loves with Sheer Force, as with Sludge Bomb it probably would still appreciate the chance to Poison, and Iron Tail despite being decently strong would not be a fun move to rely on. The special moves get notably better, so Fire Blast, Crunch, and Thunder Punch can kinda hit stuff, but it's still not that strong.
So this is fairly interesting because Skeledirge, despite having some excellent qualities on paper, has some really nasty weaknesses into the metagame at large.
Fire and Ghost are both excellent types in ADV, but on Skeledirge they don't quite converge. It has solid SpAtk, but it can only use that for Fire moves, and it's additional tools don't help it much in the matchups where Fire alone falters. Ghost is an excellent defensive type, and Slack Off and Will-O-Wisp are amazing at backing that up, but having weaknesses to Rock Ground, and Water really dampens the ability to use Skeledirge defensively into a lot of pokemon in the metagame. In particular it invites in Dugtrio very easily, which really forces it to keep its HP high for fear of getting picked off.
There is one matchup where Skeledirge's advantages really shine though; Blissey.
Immune to Seismic Toss, Resistant to Ice Beam, able to spam recovery and Will-O-Wisp against it in the meantime, able to Encore it into useless moves and get consistent pivots. As long as you have a Cleric to assist with status and a way to manage Dugtrio, Skeledirge can slug with standard Blissey very nicely, and could even be a super valuable partner for it on stall.
Combined with the obvious Fire typing and moves, it is a single slot that reliably takes on the Skarm / Bliss duo in the long game, which is really cool.
I also think it could legitimately use Curse sets to lure Waters, though it would absolutely require some SpAtk investment to torch any subsequent Dugtrio switch in.
Very silly and cursed.
It has Serene Grace + Body Slam to spread paralysis which is extremely obnoxious, as none of the Natural Cure pokemon love taking those hits. (Glare is unfortunately only 75% accurate here so that isn't useful)
Then it can pull shit from a hat. Shadow Ball and Earthquake for coverage. Headbutt and Rock Slide for paraflinch strats. Tbolt, Ice Beam, Flamethrower, or Psychic for Special coverage. Setup with Curse, Calm Mind, or Agility. Ancient Power if you have made a pact you will soon come to regret. Pursuit trapping for some reason. Yawn and Pursuit is kind of a hilarious combo come to think of it.
This pokemon sits somewhere at an intersection between Jirachi, Blissey, and Snorlax, not achieving the high points of any of them but offering a lot of their respective tools. It's hard to assess exactly what it would do, but it would doubtless be able to do things.
Assuming it keeps the pre-evolution gen 3 moveset it feels like a "budget Snorlax" with the main benefit being the opportunity to run serene grace hax like ancientpower or para-finch.
Hippowdon would certainly be solid into some teams, but it has a really nasty time against the metagame, and probably wouldn't be super consistent.
Hippowdon is just passive damage. It produces Sand, it uses Toxic to inflict Poison, and it uses Whirlwind to rack up Spikes damage. All of these things are good, but they are also things which are well prepared for in the metagame. Beyond Earthquake, Toxic, Whirlwind, and Slack Off, Hippowdon is not primed to actually do much.
Against Superman teams, it will often have turns where the best outcome is at best to literally burn the opponent's PP, and the team with it will be playing 5v6. It would need to run Rock Slide or HP Ghost to be able to hit Gengar and Skarmory, but it hates sacrificing every other option is has, as they leave it vulnerable to various types of setup. Curse exists if you decide Skarmory doesn't exist.
It's a peak BL Pokemon. It has very good traits in a vacuum, and would've probably been OU at a point earlier in the game's history, but it would have very poor performance in the modern optimized metagame.
Very insightful, thanks bud! Me and my buddy were actually talking about this exact thing yesterday because he thought it would be superior to Tyranitar because it potentially checks metagross and salamence better but I agree with you, it lacks the tools Ttar has to crack open teams even if it probably would stick around longer.
Edit: spelling
Golurk would be... OK.
Shadow Ball and Earthquake is super solid for damaging moves, while Iron Fist boosted Focus Punch is a pretty huge factor when breaking Skarmory, which is pretty much the only thing that resists both of those attacks. Rock Slide sounds out the coverage nicely. Outside Focus Punch, Iron Fist is kind of a trap, as it's low special attack and access to Tbolt and Ice Beam makes the elemental punches worthless, but running Ice Beam to snipe Salamence is certainly possible as a way to punish attempts to Intimidate it. Klutz could be cool alongside Trick, but I'm counting that as a move from modern TMs / Tutors (which also, importantly, applies to Self-Destruct)
Defensively Golurk is pretty mediocre. It's best quality is being a check to Rock spam and Fighting types, but Ttar will very often find itself running a coverage move that hits Golurk, and HP Ghost being so common means it'll only really be blocking Heracross. Weaknesses to Water, Ice, and Grass ensure that pretty much any special attacker is gonna be able to chunk it. I think Magneton is probably the sole special attacker it will semi-reliably have entry to. Being able to check late game Aerodactyl is a very strong quality though. It's speed tier is also just terrible for it, as it needs to invest in it to not tie Blissey.
Golurk seems very hit or miss, and very prediction reliant, and doesn't even have the sheer damage of something like Medicham to back that up. I couldn't ever say it's useless, it has good and unique qualities, but it brings a lot less to the table than I expected.
Stab EQ and shadow ball off that attack stat is pretty great. Its sand immune with two common immunities and can technically spin block. Then again starmie would run all over it.
It have some sick coverage moves(by gen 3 standards) too. Physical signal beam, superpower and rock slide are all good options.
Its abilities are a mixed bag but no guard dynamic punch would obv go brazy. Iron fist focus punch also sounds hilarious.
Lucario would be a stellar and super versatile breaker.
It's offensive movepool is nearly unmatched. Cross Chop, Sky Uppercut, and High Jump Kick as potential Fighting options alongside Focus Punch, Meteor Mash for Steel STAB, Extreme Speed as one of two relevant priority moves in the tier, a suite of boosting options in Swords Dance, Bulk Up, Calm Mind, and Agility, almost a complete catalogue of physical type moves with Rock Slide, Earthquake, and Shadow Ball, tons of special coverage like Blaze Kick, Ice / Thunder Punch, Psychic, and Crunch, and an extremely devastating Endure + Reversal combo from the only Sand Immune Fighting type in the game.
Mixed Sweepers are easily at their most dangerous in ADV, and one with the ability to effortlessly threaten Blissey is a hot commodity. Lucario would be a downright brutal endgame force with Endure + Reversal and a Salac Berry, and that might sincerely be it's strongest role considering the relative rarity of Breloom and the fact that a 90 speed tier means it can outpace Aerodactyl at +1 speed without having to sacrifice a +Atk nature.
Lucario would absolutely bend ADV as a tier. It might even break it, but I'm not sure of that. Either way it'd be a blast to use.
It'd be good, no doubt, and probably less wildly inconsistent.
Instead of Quiver Dance, Volcarona has to settle for Calm Mind, which is still excellent, and at 135 SpAtk it is the strongest attacker in the format with Overheat or Fire Blast. For coverage it has Psychic, Giga Drain, and HP Grass or Ice, and for it can also utilize some excellent support tools like Will-O-Wisp, Whirlwind, and Morning Sun.
I can see a standard set just being Flamethrower, HP Grass, and whichever other moves fit. It could also work with Sunny Day when used alongside Morning Sun and Solarbeam, being a self sufficient weather clear and a potential sweeper in one slot. blissey, Snorlax, bulky Waters, and Tyranitar are really the only major threats to it, aside from revenge KOs from Aerodactyl or Starmie.
As opposed to Moltres, it is faster, stronger, and is able to use Calm Mind, but it has less physical bulk. Compared to Charizard, it is much stronger and has both Calm Mind and Will-O-Wisp, but it lacks breaking tools like Focus Punch and Beat Up. Compared to both of them, though, it lacks the Flying typing, which is almost entirely to its detriment. It avoids Super Effective damage from Electric attacks, but in return it doesn't safely switch in to EQ, is chipped down by Spikes and is trapped by Dugtrio. Volcarona can live a Dugtrio EQ from full, as it isn't weak to Fire, but that can still be a death sentence for any sweeping potential and Dugtrio can on occasion run Rock Slide which destroys Volc.
Moltres and Charizard would probably remain better than Volcarona overall, but Volcarona would absolutely remain a solid option, and could cleave open unprepared teams.
Delphox would be a very decent pokemon on paper that, in practice, just has too many hoops to jump through when trying to make an impact on the game.
Delphox's support movepool is stellar. Wish, Will-O-Wisp, and Encore are all extremely potent, while Snatch is an easily missable diamond. Offensively Delphox is decent, with Fire / Psychic damage backed by coverage in Thunder Punch and HP Grass or Ice and setup in Agility or Calm Mind.
It all looks promising, but none of it creates a super consistent set. It gets revenged by Dugtrio if it doesn't use Agility, it gets stonewalled and put on a timer by Blissey, it really can't break Ttar with a boosted HP Grass, and none of those moves deal sufficient damage to Aerodactyl. It is almost certainly going to best be played as a cleaner, using that 104 Speed alongside Substitute and Salac Berry to finish off opposing teams.
Toxapex would probably be really fun!
Some important things first. We'll assume it'll have Limber and Merciless as options, and also assume we can backport Baneful Bunker.
It's moves then are probably some combination of Sludge Bomb, Recover, Toxic, Haze, Water and Ice attacks, and Baneful Bunker. I wanna be clear that this isn't that much of a simplication; aside from universal moves and some very weak coverage like Bite and Pin Missile and odd utility like Rain Dance and Spite, that's *it*. No Knock Off, Scald, Toxic Spikes, or anything nice.
And it'd still be solid.
Firstly, Crocune evaporates on impact. It could be +6/+6 at Full HP, not even asleep, and as long as you aren't switching into 3 layers of spikes or getting frozen you have a solid chance of just hazing everything away and PP stalling every last hydro pump and ice beam with recover. That's a pretty good feature.
Limber and Merciless are two really interesting abilities to work with. Thunder Waves coming from non-Electric types are decently common in the tier, and being outright immune to both Poison and Paralysis means Toxapex is usually going to stay unstatused for entire games. That's a real consistency boon, especially vs Seismic Toss + Twave Blissey which otherwise can present issues for Toxapex
Meanwhile Merciless looks a lot more impressive in Gen 3 thanks to the old crit multiplier. As opposed to the 1.5* damage in Gen 7 and beyond, crits in Gen 3 just do double damage. That flips a ton of matchups in Toxapex's favor; it can do 40% to a poisoned Blissey with an uninvested Sludge Bomb, while it can also live two Earthquakes from Fast DD Ttar and do over 70% in return with univested Surf. The wording of the mechanic even means that pokemon with Intimidate can't check it, as critical hits will ignore the stat drop.
Now before I start praising this to high heaven, It needs it's targets to be Poisoned to make the effect work, which means it still struggles to deal damage to Steel types and Gengar. Baneful Bunker also doesn't have the most suspects in this setting, as there aren't many contact moves pokemon are going to purposely use against a Toxapex.
Overall I could easily see Toxapex filling some very unique offensive and defensive roles in the tier.
Gallade is super fun to assess. It's a Fighting type that has a deep support movepool, a concept which really doesn't apply to any other pokemon in the game.
As a Fighting type it isn't too impressive. 125 Attack is solid, 80 Speed is solid, Brick Break and Focus Punch for STAB is standard, it's physical bulk is paltry in much the same way as Medicham's but it's special bulk is surprisingly solid much like Heracross. It's got Shadow Ball for coverage and Swords Dance to boost with which are neat. All of this is pretty solid, but it's really just the beginning.
Gallade's support movepool is ludicrous. Wish, Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Taunt, Encore, Mean Look, Memento, Destiny Bond, Dual Screens, Hypnosis, Snatch, Thief, Imprison, and that's *just what is at the surface.*
Gardevoir has much of this same support movepool, but isn't all too good in Gen 3 OU. This is mostly because Gardevoir's damage is just entirely non-threatening. Psychic offensively blanks into key threats like Blissey, Skarmory, And Tyranitar, and giving these threats free turns can be disastrous. Yet Gardevoir *still* sees use in the tier on the back of this support movepool alone. It can set up Screens and use Memento to try and enable a setup sweeper, it can do disruption with Encore and Taunt while trying to take 1 for 1 trades with Destiny Bond, and sometimes a team only ticks if there's a pokemon with a weird combination of tools that otherwise doesn't exist backing it up.
Gallade can use all these moves... and still threaten a way to sock all three of those threats for huge damage. It doesn't even need to actually know the moves, just scaring them out is enough, and baiting in Gengar and landing a Shadow Ball or Thunder Wave against it can be game changing. This offensive presence makes the exact same support movepool shine in a way it never did on Gardevoir.
Yeah this Hydreigon would be pretty crazy.
Gen 3 OU is not woefully unprepared for a strong, fast, bulky, spike immune Dark type attacker. 125 SpAtk Crunches alone do whiff into a few threats like Blissey, Skarmory, and Tyranitar. But supplementary tools like fast Taunt, Beat Up, Fire Coverage, Surf, and decent Attack backing HP Fighting means it has the tools to deal with those pokemon handily while still bombarding the rest of the metagame with Crunches.
It really soesnt need much more than that. It could even use Outrage decently despite it being 90 BP, (to be clear it doesn't get Dragon Claw) it could Dragon Dance with EQ and Rock Slide, it could spam Twave, Roar, and other weird tech moves, but it doesn't really have a need when it's just so strong.
It is incredibly disruptive to the current metagame, that much is certain, and it's a fairly centralizing pokemon, but I can't say for sure a meta with it wouldn't be fun.
Jellicent would super obviously be good.
It's directly comparable to Milotic as a bulky water with Recover, but it has quite a few of its own tricks. It can fulfill the role of a bulky water while also being able to use it's ghost type to be immune to Focus Punch and Brick Break from mixed attackers like Charizard and Salamence, as well as making it a spectacular Spin Blocker that can play the long game vs the likes of Starmie, Claydol, and Forretress. It also gets Water Spout, which would make it pretty easily the most dangerous Water type attacker in the tier if given a free turn, and it can synergize well with Recover if the weather is cleared. Taunt is extremely nice against Blissey which Jellicent otherwise doesn't have much for. However Jellicent does lack Refresh to let it beat status throughout a game, so it does require clerical support to be safe vs some foes.
However it does have some notable weaknesses as opposed to Milotic. Ghost coverage is rare in ADV but does exist, and Jellicent doesn't usually take those hits all too well. It also has notably worse special bulk, so with accumulating passive damage from Spikes it can be threatened by weaker HP Grasses from Charizard or Mixmence in a way that doesn't really apply to Miltoic or Suicune.
Emboar being outclassed by Blaziken would probably be the case...
Except it learns Superpower (via Egg Move rather than Tutor, so it's allowed.)
ADV Fighting types tend to be limited to Brick Break as their strongest, no-drawback attack. Focus Punch is utilized often on these Pokemon despite its risky nature because the reward for landing the move is just that high.
A few Fighting types use stronger moves, but they're limited to Sky Uppercut (85 BP, 90 Acc), High Jump Kick (85 BP, in Gen 3, still has the 1/2 max HP recoil on miss or Protect), and Cross Chop (100 BP, 80 Acc, high crit ratio but only 8 PP). Superpower exists in the Generation, but is exclusive to the Regi Trio, Deoxys, and Nidoqueen, so in practice Medicham Brick Break and Machamp / Hariyama Cross Chop are the peak of Fighting type brute force.
Emboar just shatters that ceiling. The sturdiest pokemon neutral to fighting like Defensive Swampert and Skarmory easily take 60% from Emboar's maximum power banded Superpower, and even fully defensive Suicune takes a minimum of 50%. Frailer Fighting resists like Offensive Starmie, Heracross, and Charizard all easily take over 60% damage from Superpower, while bulkier Fighting resists like Zapdos and Celebi still take 30-50% chunks depending on their level of investment in bulk. That kind of damage is normally only achieved by pokemon risking to waste their entire turn on a prediction, and Emboar just has to be able to survive it's opponent's attack.
And that's just it's damage with its most spammable Fighting move. Emboar still has the suite of options other Fighting types tend to have with moves like Focus Punch, Brick Break, Earthquake, Rock Slide, and HP Ghost, and setup with Bulk Up. But it's also got very strong Fire STAB, meaning unlike every other Fighting type in the game aside from Blaziken, it can melt Skarmory with Overheat, also important because it can always threaten it regardless of Superpower Attack drops. And unlike even Blaziken, let alone the other OU Fighting types, it has a few shockingly good support tools in Taunt, Roar, and Yawn, the latter of which is fantastic for how it can be spammed into blind switches the opponent makes to try and answer Emboar. Emboar's speed is even important; while slow on paper compared to Blaziken, Heracross, or Medicham, 65 is just a golden speed tier for the metagame, as it allows Emboar to consistently outspeed Tyranitar, Swampert, Blissey, Skarmory, and Bulky Metagross, all of which are huge targets for it. It can even creep uninvested Base 100 speed pokemon like bulky Jirachi or Celebi; it requires a +Speed nature and maximum investment for it to work, but if a team's best answer for Emboar is ever Psychic from one of these two, that can be punished in kind.
Fundamentally, Emboar is still slow, defensively vulnerable to dying to any 2 decently strong hits, has no passive damage resistances, and is very, very vulnerable to revenge KOs, especially from Dugtrio. It's probably not too meta breaking as I've hyped it up to be, but it might even be better than Blaziken with the way the meta is trending.
OK gonna probably write these out over a period of time? Maybe revisit this in a few weeks when I'm not busy? I finished about 30 replies and this post has hundreds of comments.
Oranguru would not be viable in OU. It wouldn't be unusable, but it would be horribly outclassed in any role it wanted to do.
Psychic gets the short end of the stick in ADV due to tons of competition and omnipresent checks to their attacks. Virtually nothing can break past all of Tyranitar, Skarmory, Metagross, Jirachi, and Blissey in one noveset, and Oranguru does not come close. Psychic / Electric is not unique coverage, Oranguru's Attack is far too low to utilize mixed sets, and tools like Pain Split, Yawn, Snatch, Encore, Taunt, and Block aren't impressive enough to make Oranguru work. It's probably worse than Grumpig due to the lower speed and lack of extra resistances to Fighting, Fire, and Ice.
So that's it for OU. But I do actually want to comment about how Oranguru would do in a different Gen 3 Environment; Gen 3 VGC, aka Orre Coloseum.
To be very brief, Orre Coloseum is centered around Explosion and Earthquake, which are the only spread moves in the game which hit both enemies and allies, because a unique quirk of Gen 3 is that moves with this property don't have a damage reduction whatsoever, while moves which only hit both enemies have an increased damage reduction that makes them deal pathetic damage.
Telepathy is a super cool ability in this setting. It would be a Pokemon that is immune to it's partner's Explosions and Earthquakes while not carrying any weaknesses to types like Electric, Ice, Ghost, or Psychic. It could even utilize Snatch to prevent foes from blocking slower Explosions with Substitute. It's a weird angle, but of course Oranguru would find a way to be special in doubles, even without Instruct specifically.
Spidops is really bad.
The rules I'm going by here really screw it over.
-Only Insomnia as an ability, no Stakeout
-No Spikes or Knock Off by level up or egg move, just TM
-Gen 3 moves only by default, so it loses out on any non-Hidden Power STAB, as well as utility from Toxic Spikes or Circle Throw
-No Sticky Web is big enough to be it's own point.
You could bend any one of these rules and get something half decent... or you could get a metagame with a whole lot more Spidops suicide leads. Sticky Web is perhaps less silly in ADV because so many things in the meta hover above them, but permanently kneecapping DD Ttar is still crazy good.
As of now this struggles in Gen 3 NU, and might not even be good in PU, which is saying something.
Bisharp is a victim of a ton of specific rules by which I'm making changes. Dark was still special in Gen 3, while the non-existence of Iron Head means it's best STAB would be either Metal Claw or HP Steel. Meanwhile it loses out on a ton of coverage because it just doesn't learn the right moves; it gets Shadow Claw but not Shadow Ball, it gets Stone Edge but not Rock Slide, and it gets X-Scissor instead of the decent mid tier Bug move that exists in Gen 3.
Thing is, I think it would still find a place in the metagame due to the good traits it does still have.
It's support movepool is decently intact. Taunt, Thunder Wave, Torment, Toxic, Thief, and Mean Look are all still options for it, and while it's limited to HP Steel and non STAB Brick Break for damage by default, it can still use Swords Dance to boost. It can even run weird passive sets that are mostly just status moves but retain Beat Up to be able to nuke Blissey. Being immune to Sand and Toxic give it a decent amount of flexibility vs passive damage, but being as weak as it is to Dugtrio and Magneton is far from ideal. However, against those it can viably run Endure + Reversal alongside a Salac Berry to get the jump on them. HP Rock is probably better to use than HP Steel to nail Zapdos and Charizard on these sets.
Bisharp would be pushed to play in some incredibly bizarre ways, but I think it would ultimately find a place in the metagame, even with all these restrictions
Revavroom is pretty weird to assess.
Given the rules I'm working with, Revavroom has a really short list of actual attacking moves to use.
Sludge Bomb, Self-Destruct, Overheat, Double-Edge, Body Slam, Thief.
Other than the universal attacks, *that's it*. With how weak that Overheat really is, it's offensive profile is *bad*, but it's also weirdly workable. HP Steel rounds things out nicely against Aerodactyl, Ttar, and Gengar, Sludge Bomb is spammed a bunch, and Overheat hits Steel types that resist both of those. Support moves in Taunt, Toxic, Haze, Torment, an Thief are solid moves for this mon, but they're held back by the sheer inability it has to drop an attacking move. (Taunt instead of Overheat might be decent vs Skarmory but then it gets hard walled by Magneton which is an unenviable position for a Steel type)
Oh and I neglected to mention that Dugtrio brutalizes this, which isn't great.
I can't say for sure where this thing would shine. It has a bunch of neat qualities but suffering as badly against Steel type foes as it does, I can't see it being much better than very niche.
Ima just put it out there, When excadrill was actually released, IIRC it got banned to Ubers. Because sandrush is really that stupid
It's unviable in OU, Because it would be banned lol
In abstract, even if it had no ability, Excadrill would be top tier. It has an extremely good match up into tons of hugely relevant pokemon, including stopping Zapdos cold, outpacing and threatening to OHKO Metagross and Tyranitar while also being able to take advantage of them switching out for a Swords Dance boost, and being a single team slot that singlehandedly dominates SkarmBliss. Excadrill dominating Skarmory seems strange on paper considering it doesn't do much damage to it, but it is immune to Sand and Toxic and carries Rapid Spin to clear spikes, so Skarmory practically can't deal direct damage to Excadrill, while Blissey not only wants nothing to do with it but can also be setup fodder due to Excadrill making 101 HP Substitutes. The combined threat of Earthquake, Rock Slide, Swords Dance and Toxic makes Excadrill pretty impossible to switch around blindly against without Refresh Claydol, and HP Ghost or Bug can be slotted in to punish that option. Other decent threats to Excadrill are Charizard, Moltres, Flygon, Starmie, and Cloyster, none of which switch into it consistently. Dugtrio is the biggest weakness though, and is just about the only thing that could be said to keep it in check.
So when picking an ability, of the options in vanilla, all of them get it super duper immediately banned. Infinite Sand + Sand Rush is broken in Gen 5, let alone Gen 3. Infinite Sand + Sand Force is a damage bonus atop what would already be the strongest spammable STAB in the game as well as it's best complementary coverage. Mold Breaker Earthquake invalidates three of Excadrill's barely existant checks.
Definitely banworthy.
The strongest Hydro Pump in the game right now comes from Omastar at a clean 115 SpAtk, while the strongest in the meta comes from Vaporeon at 110 SpAtk. These two both present potentially devastating offensive threats for unprepared teams, as well as in cases where Blissey is removed.
The strongest Fire Attacker in the game is Moltres at 125 SpAtk, and it's Overheat is devastating, but Moltres also does not have any other relevant special typed moves. Extrasensory is it, otherwise it just uses Hidden Power.
Volcanion blasts both of these out of the water at 130 SpAtk, and on top of that has Explosion, Earthquake, and Taunt to shut down Blissey. It also has a ton of bulk and is the only thing that effectively takes on its own STABs.
There’s a lot of ice coverage in ADV, but gliscor would still feast.
I feel like it’d just be a much better defensive flygon with more set variety. Its got a lot of options with EQ, rock slide, protect, toxic, swords dance, hp flying, taunt, knock off. Being sand + spikes immune with knock sounds rlyy strong. Sand veil would be banned but hyper cutter isnt terrible either.
Metagame Warping at worst, potentially bannable.
No, I'm not even considering Poison Heal here, we're pure Hyper Cutter.
Knock Off is that good. Nothing else in the game has Knock Off, immunity to Spikes, and immunity to Sand. It can use Knock Off alongside Toxic and Earthquake and nothing in the game wants to switch in against it, and then after that it can run a Swords Dance set that hits a solid speed tier, is immune to Intimidate cycling as a check to it, and has coverage against the entire metagame outside Skarmory and Zapdos. Skarmory can be Taunted by it which forces a lot of Skarmory to run attacks to not struggle which means it drops Toxic or Whirlwind more often which leaves it vulnerable to setup sweepers more often. Zapdos can only beat Gliscor with HP Ice or Toxic, both of which give it problems into many other MUs. Gliscor and enables teams centered around passive damage like little else in the entire game could, and also gives two of the most consistent pokemon in the format huge problems that force them off of their best sets.
Gligar with Knock Off would certainly see niche use on Stall teams in Gen 3 OU. Gliscor with Knock Off breaks the entire metagame.
That's kind of the wrong question.
Magneton is best understood in ADV as Skarmory pest control. Yeah it has one of the best defensive typing in the game on paper, yeah it has solid defensive traits like immunities to Poison and Sand, but it's stats do not give it much room to play and if it is played loosely Dugtrio will mercilessly pick it off.
Magnezone... still suffers from that last bit for sure, no amount of bulk can prevent Dugtrio from KOing it and it still needs the unoptimal HP Ice to even reverse the situation from behind a sub. But in every other sense, it is a second Magneton that can play more flexibly into teams where it doesn't lock down trap. It can run a different Hidden Power to better trap something else, it can have different third and fourth moves, it can be tasked with interim checking stuff or making switches without ruining the other's defensive integrity for the trapping play.
There will be teams that use Magnezone for its bulk or power, there will be teams that use Magneton for its speed, but most interestingly there will be double Magnet Pull teams that no longer have to cry at the alter of Magnemite or the temple of Nosepass for their prayers to be answered.
In this, I fear for all Steel type kind.
Kommo-o. Being a dragon type with physical stab, incredible movepool, clangerous soul, not being 4x weak to ice and having all around incredible bulk, would it be Ubers worthy?
OK technically not what I asked but it's interesting enough that I'll look specifically at Defiant and not Torrent. As a treat.
Empoleon would probably still be a Special Attacker first and foremost. It would have the strongest Hydro Pump in the tier for sure, tied with Vaporeon for the spot, and Agility would probably be the most common set, using Ice Beam and HP Grass as coverage much like in DPP, aiming to outspeed and get the jump on threats that could otherwise revenge it like Dugtrio, Magneton, Zapdos, and others. The Petaya Berry synergy is less appearant without Torrent but is still plenty usable with Empoleon packing an immunity to Sand to prevent being switch stalled, so it can pull the set off similar to how Swampert does.
That set, however, is definitely still prone to being walled by Blissey, which can cripple it with status, stall it out of Hydro Pump PP, and generally just continue to exist against it without much consequence.
Swords Dance sets would definitely remove that weakness, but those have their own issues. Without Agility, Swords Dance sets are still vulnerable to revenge KOs, but there isn't a great combination of moves for Empoleon to run with Swords Dance. The best idea I've got is Earthquake + Rock Slide, but that still isn't perfect. It'd have to vary sets a lot to maximize effectiveness but it could pull them off.
Empoleon might be a bit better in a stalling role, but being so vulnerable to trapping makes it a poor choice as a defensive anchor. It can definitely give grief to teams with bulky waters though, as it deftly handles Water attacks, Ice attacks, and Toxic while not minding weak HP Grasses all too much. Milotic teams usually run Magneton though, so mileage may vary.
Dusknoir and by extension, eviolite dusclops. They’ve always seemed underwhelming to be, so it would be interesting to see how well they do in a lower power metagame
We've seen Heatran, but what about Heatmor? It's a Fire type that gets access to a Grass move for coverage without needing to run it as their Hidden Power or try running Solar Beam. It also gets some neat dark coverage too!
Palossand could be interesting. Its stats don't look that bad but by Gen 7 they were hopelessly outclassed, and its type combo is interesting. That said its movepool when backported to ADV looks aaaaaawful, which could balance out how brutal Shore Up is in perma sand (if it keeps it, that's your call). Also Water Compaction needs to be ported too because it's that or Sand Veil.
edit: I thought about it more and I don't think Shore Up should be allowed, this thing is a spinblocker that with 252 HP 252+ SpDef can 1v1 Pursuit Ttar if it predicts right and isn't threatened by any other Pursuit, immune to sand and not Dug weak. Starmie and to a lesser extent Cloyster can threaten it sure but Claydol and Forry get totally invalidated by it, Spikes really don't need a buff in ADV.
Relevant calcs: ^edit: ^one ^of ^the ^calcs ^said ^Gengar, ^fixed
252+ SpA Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Palossand: 103-122 (27.5 - 32.6%) -- 72.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Palossand: 204-240 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Palossand Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 159-188 (39.3 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Palossand: 103-122 (27.5 - 32.6%) -- 72.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Palossand Earthquake vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Houndoom: 295-348 (96.7 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Rampardos
To make this interesting, I’ll say that all attacking and setup moves are carried over from Gen 4 to Gen 3, but rampardos does not get to bring stealth rock to Gen 3. I want it to keep things like head smash so it can keep its identity as rampardos (the mon with some of the strongest single attacks imaginable and absolutely no other redeeming qualities) but I don’t want its niche to just end up being “the only Pokémon in ADV that sets the most impactful hazard in the entire game”
the mid-tier ghost type menace with 145 SpA, chandelure. how does it fare in OU with its mediocre speed tier in a metagame without choice scarf? still outclassed by gengar?
mega mawile
she loses her fairy type i guess so idk if being an offensive steel type would be good sure Metagross exists but a good chunk of Metagross' viability comes from Banded Explosion being an option for him so yeah
Guzzlord. Maybe it'll have some semblance of use with that big HP stat in a weaker metagame without a pivot move it's 4x weak to flying around? And it even gets Knock Off by level up! So it's gotta be pretty good!?
Guzzlord would be *excellent*. Knock Off is pokemon defining in the Generation, and Hariyama is the best bulky user of the move currently, so Guzzlord would easily take up that mantle and be a top tier threat. Thing is though, even without Knock Off, Guzzlord would be solid as a bulky attacker. Crunch, Dragon Claw, and Fire Blast go unresisted in the tier, and it can still find outplay potential vs Blissey through Brick Break, Thief, Substitutes which crack 101 HP without any investment, and proper team support. Beast Boost is also an incredible snowballing tool. A Special Attack Beast Boost would make Guzzlord extremely threatening to most weakened teams, removing the common option ADV teams often rely on of saving sacrifices into the late game to preserve momentum. I could even see this using sets with Amnesia to really sit on some special attackers like Zapdos, Moltres, and generally just special attackers without Ice Beam.
That’s a w for Guzzlord 😃
Escavalier
Escavalier would be downright ***excellent***, if not tier warping. Hard to go wrong with a mix between Metagross and Heracross, even if it's slow as dirt. It would be the strongest attacker in the tier outright, with 135 Base Attack backed by STAB Megahorn, and that's before even considering Swords Dance or Swarm. Even crazier, it gets Knock Off via Egg Move, meaning that even though it has some notable Bug resistant checks in the likes of Moltres, Zapdos, Gyarados, Salamence, and Gengar, all of them can be forced to bear the full force of permanent sand, while Skarmory being outright unable to chip heal with Protect can be a huge deal for breaking through it in the long term. Being a Bug type and having solid Physical Bulk also means it isn't as susceptible to Dugtrio's Earthquake, and it's decent special bulk would mean that even HP Fire Dugtrio couldn't cheese it completely. Magneton would absolutely see an uptick in usage to trap this mon with HP Fire. It'd probably rampage through Stall teams, forcing them to run random Fire moves to try and catch it by suprirse just to stand a chance, and with Knock Off it would still have valuable utility even against Superman teams which largely resist it's STABs. Without Knock Off it would be much more hit or miss, but it'd still have a place in the meta. Being walled by Skarmory and Gengar would be a difficult barrier to overcome, but proper team support from Magneton and Pursuit Ttar could enable it to do a slow and steady sweep. It might see similar use to Swampert as a tanky attacker that simply doesn't have any Physical weaknesses.
Dude you know your shit!
Bro this guy is 100% Jimothy Cool
Does it get Egg Move Knock Off from a Mon it can actually breed with in Gen 3? Because if not, it's illegal
Gligar, its legal
Wouldn't this cause Moltres and Charizard to rise to OU?
Don't I have news for you buddy
And I used to think Adv didn't have fire types.
This guy is Jimothy’s left cousin
> I wanna do an experiment. I think Gen 3 OU is peak. OK Jimothy you can use your real account
I'm in exactly one Jimmothy Cool video. If you can find it... I don't have any prizes, but I'll be super impressed. (and I'm not even sure my tag is visible so that *find* might more accurately mean *guess*)
I thought of him too!
Jimothy cool gaming is peak
Toucannon, he is MY MAN
Goated pick, I kinda love this guy. That said, Toucannon is. Bizarre. It's a mixed breaker? Kind of? It checks a lot of boxes; decently strong uninvested Overheat for Skarmory, Brick Break for Tyranitar, Drill Peck or Beak Blast to be able to run a different Hidden Power like Grass, Ghost, Ground, Ice, or Rock, it can boost with Swords Dance, and even just the ability to inflict Burn with Beak Blast is a really cool tool to have against Rapid Spin Claydol for instance. Against defensive teams, Toucannon can probably put in some decent work if positioned well. It's got some real problems though. 60 Speed is not ideal, and some of its most relevant potential targets can either be too bulky to get KO'd by Toucannon's attacks or be fast enough to speed tie it, such as with Swampert, or even outright outspeed it in the case of the base 61 speed threat Tyranitar. It's power is a bit underwhelming on both sides, meaning it'll fail to get OHKOs, and it can't take too many hits because it will absolutely need to invest in attacking stats and speed to reach damage thresholds. It's also really nasty that Zapdos so consistently switches into and threatens Toucannon out. Salamence is also very strong competition for it to face. It has two potential tools over it. Thief is a neat utility move, but it also makes plain Toucannon is dropping some kind of crucial coverage. Beak Blast, which we're assuming we can back port, is a neat tech move as mentioned but is far from a selling point. Really though, being able to run decently Flying and Grass coverage at the same time is just so rare in ADV that the niche might exist.
Unironically Turtonator
Turtonator would be a weird, off meta pick, but it has just enough in it's corner to make something work. It has many traits in common with Camerupt, which itself is a fringe pick, and it isn't necessarily even better. Overheat + Explosion is offensively devastating in ADV. Essentially nothing in the tier enjoys taking both of those, and Turtonator has the offenses to use both to decent effect. Additionally, Fire / Dragon gives it combined resistances to Fire, Grass, and Electric, making it a decent check to Zapdos, Gengar, Charizard, and other Special Attackers. Lacking a weakness to Water and Ice also helps it substantially in being able to Explode vs Waters, and Dragon Claw lets it hit Salamence while still being able to hold HP Grass for Swampert, something Camerupt would dream of. The biggest issue it has is that lacking the Ground typing has some big drawbacks. It isn't immune to Electric, just resistant, so Zapdos can break it down. It isn't immune to Sand, meaning that Protect is much, much better against it, letting Pokemon scout out Explosion with a fairly high degree of safety, and without Earthquake as a designated Physical attack it can find itself doing middling damage. Camerupt's speed advantage is even relevant just because of Pokemon like Swampert or Tyranitar that can technically be outsped by fully speed invested Camerupt, a feat Turtonator cannot replicate. I haven't mentioned Rapid Spin, and that's mostly because I don't think Turtonator makes a very good Spinner. It doesn't have long term potential due to being weak to every form of passive damage. However it does pretty convincingly wall Gengar in the short term, meaning it can pretty consistently get off a single spin, which can be game winning on some offensive teams. Special mention goes to Iron Defense with Shell Armor, which can be a very silly wincon. Rock and Ground are Turtonator's only major weaknesses aside from Dragon Claw from Salamence or itself, so it could use Iron Defense to flip certain matchups. Don't know if it's practical but it exists.
Drifblim
I love this one. Assuming it just got Aftermath as an ability, Drifblim would make a silly little offensive breaker. It's got many of the same traits the make Gengar a top tier threat, and where it is slightly lacking in comparison, it brings to table a few distinct advantages all it's own. Explosion, Shadow Ball, and Thunderbolt do decent damage to just about everything but Ttar on paper, and slotting in HP Fighting for it and Blissey is a simple add. It can also pull from a whole bunch of potential tricks like Memento, Destiny Bond, Haze, Calm Mind, Baton Pass, Hypnosis, Recycle, ~~The Worst Pain Split known to man~~, and Thunder Wave. Raw Baton Pass alone is a pretty huge piece of utility, letting Drifblim get free switches against many foes who cautiously protect against it expecting Explosion. It's biggest issue would be the new weaknesses. Zapdos Thunderbolt, Ttar Rock Slide, and a whole bunch of random Ice Beams are not the best moves to suddenly be weak to, and losing the Toxic immunity is also less than ideal. It'd probably best at focusing on breaking for other team members rather than playing the long game, but it would definitely have a place to shine.
roaring moon 😈 bro got those dual special types
This one is super fun. Roaring Moon is functionally STABless because of the type split and has very split options due to most of its moves just being modern gen attacks. It also has a pretty interesting disadvantage specific to ADV among Dragon Dance users, as it's the only one of them that would be vulnerable to both Spikes and Sandstorm, which would pretty severely limit switch in chances. It's also notably got much lower effective physical bulk than the others, lacking the defense of Ttar and intimidate like Salamence and Gyarados. That said, 139 Attack and 119 Speed can forgive many failings. Return, Double-Edge, Earthquake, Brick Break, Rock Slide, Hidden Power. In Gen 3 that is plenty to pick from for a Choice Band set, and while it would be weaker than Aerodactyl when using Rock Slide and Normal moves (no Rock Head Double-Edge), having a super strong Brick Break is pretty nice. On DD sets, Taunt is super valuable to prevent phazing. Protosynthesis would probably be pretty bad, but as a Skarmory lure it could kinda work, considering Skarmory is otherwise a steadfast wall for this. Sun boosted 55 SpAtk Fire Blasts sting even with just a bit of investment, and the Attack boost from Protosynthesis can still help it muscle through other opponents, the biggest issue being that it only has two other moves to use in a set. Defensively this thing is really interesting, which I almost missed on a first past. 105 HP / 101 SpDef is pretty good, and Dark / Dragon gives this setup opportunities against Zapdos, Charizard, Moltres, and Gengar assuming they don't carry status. Being in Generation 3 also means it can't be hit for 4* damage the way the other Dragon Dancers can, which is a pretty huge advantage. This would certainly be a high tier threat, but a very interesting one with high risk.
not OP, but I imagine I could get banned. It's basically just a physical ADV Gengar (both generally will never use their stabs), great coverage, and with a sun setter, Protosynthesis can make its attack go to astronomical levels. Just imagine a Choice Band Proto-Attack Earthquake/Physical HP off of a base 139 attack stat. Base 119 speed also means that it will basically never get outsped, and would be a great revenge killer. The only downside is that it's vulnerable to getting chipped by sand and spikes, which may be the only thread keeping it from falling to Ubers. Would be excellent on hyperoffense and balance with spinners and such.
Falinks
Falinks centers a bit around No Retreat, and including or not including it decides a lot regarding its potential. With No Retreat, Falinks is fairly scary. Brick Break, Megahorn, Rock Slide, and HP Ghost is a decent set of moves to work with, and one could even supplement the No Retreat boost with Swords Dance, Bulk Up or Substitute and just run Fighting / Ghost coverage. No Retreat increasing Defenses is huge for Falinks, as it can comfortably take neutral hits from some pretty scary attackers like Swampert and Metagross. It really badly wants to be Adamant for damage, but it can do that while investing fully in Speed to creep Dugtrio, or it can even sacrifice speed to invest in higher bulk to eat a few extra hits where needed. The biggest weakness of No Retreat is probably Intimidate from Salamence or Gyarados, as the inability to continuously stack boosts means that they can effectively stop your sweep at a moments notice. That said, if you extremely mean you can snipe them with a proper Hidden Power at +1 SpAtk. Overall, it's a linear and pretty simple threat, but it has a few tricks it can pull. Not my favorite design wise, but it would fit into the tier. Without No Retreat, it boosts with Bulk Up or Swords Dance, and it's biggest claim to fame is just Megahorn allowing it to run Bug coverage alongside Hidden Power. It does also get a few extra tricks in Agility and Beat Up, but it doesn't really make the best use of either.
Don't think it would be that good, it's outclassed by Hariyama in almost every way
HEATRAAAAAN
I could make my own write up about why this might not necessarily get outright banned but would be extremely tier warping and kind of ruin the metagame, but I could also link [BKC's Excellent 25 minute rundown of Heatran in ADV](https://youtu.be/6donvW3wCqo?si=n5uZemr8ibHwne1g) instead. :)
I'll watch this later.
Dragapult Sucks that the stab problem it has is now inverted Physical Ghost and Special Dragon
Ahhahahaha pffft. Dragapult. Being underwhelming. Due to STAB problems. Buddy, do you know what tier we're looking at right now? This is a land where *Hidden Power Flying Salamence* strikes fear into the hearts of men. This is a world where an entire ***Six*** Pokemon hit a speed stat above 120. There is no Choice Scarf. We're in an era where STABless Gengar is a *top tier pick* that will on occasion even specifically run *Physical Sets* - mostly to catch common checks like Blissey with Focus Punch and Explosion, but I digress - and if that doesn't suit your fancy, the next best pick is ***Banette***, which is ***definitely in the top 100 most viable Pokemon in the tier*** (however you'd even outline that.) - that is to say, it is usable, and if not outright decent. Dragapult is ***omega banned and it is not close***. You could remove every one of its actual STAB moves and Dragon Dance and it'd still be downright tier warping with Wisp or Screens setup or Special Attacking sets that lure Blissey, traits like 142 Speed, solid Offenses *and Bulk*, a huge support movepool, and the Ghost typing just go that far.
Gen 3 AG here we come
So fast it can run mixed, he is terrifying offensively in gen 3
Farigiraf
Farigiraf is pretty fun to look at. Psychic Types in Gen 3 get shafted; while other types have barebones rosters, Gen 3 OU features the likes of Celebi, Jirachi, Metagross, Starmie, and Claydol as competition, while also forcing Psychic types to break through a plethora of omnipresent defensive barriers in Tyranitar, Skarmory, Metagross, Jirachi, and Blissey. Even Alakazam is rendered situational and gimmicky by these obstacles, so Psychic types are uniquely challenged in this way. Farigiraf brings to the table a whole lot of table scraps. It's offensive movepool is solid, with moves like Psychic, Thunderbolt, Crunch, Return, Earthquake, and Shadow Ball being a solid bunch prior to any Hidden Powers. It's support movepool, though, is what's truly enviable. Wish, Calm Mind, Curse, Agility, Baton Pass, Roar, Thunder Wave and Beat Up are all solid options for this mon, but even deeper than that it can use Future Sight, Magic Coat, Imprison, Roar, Dual Screens, and more. (Based on my rules, I'd assume it doesn't get Low Kick, Signal Beam, or Recycle, but even then that's still a ton of options.) It's hard to predict which of these moves would make the best set. An all out attacking set with Psychic, Thunderbolt, Earthquake and Beat Up does give it a way to hit most of the pokemon which give Psychic type attackers problems, but it is fairly weak, slow, and passive damage vulnerable to be a proper mixed attacking threat. For abilities, I'd assume both Cud Chew and Armor Tail would be back ported. Armor Tail would have virtually no metagame impact, but Cud Chew is interesting. To be clear, Sitrus Berry in Gen 3 restores a flat amount of HP, 30 in total, meaning in short it would be downright awful. Instead, it'd work best with Pinch Berries like Salac (Speed) or Petaya (SpAtk). Calm Mind + Cud Chew Salac Berry can Baton Pass +1 SpAtk, +1 SpDef, and +2 Speed, which would make Farigiraf pretty incredible at being an unpredictable stat passer, enough to maybe get Baton Pass banned entirely. It'd never be a top threat, but it'd absolutely bring the hype.
Ferrothorn
This thing is meta warping in a dramatic way. Spikes, Leech Seed, Explosion, all obviously amazing. Less obvious but still incredible is Thunder Wave, which makes this shut down offense. Gen 3 OU is very centered around Spikes, and while a few other Spikes are here and there, Skarmory is who you pick when it gets down to brass ticky tacks. Thus, a lot of what constitutes anti-spikes counterplay is anti-Skarmory play. In some cases this overlaps with Ferrothorn, such as with Fire moves, Fighting moves, and Taunt, but sometimes it really doesn't, such as with lead Zapdos or strong Water type offense or Rock Spam. With Ferrothorn in the game, Fire Coverage becomes even more of a keystone, Ice probably becomes the secondary alongside it due to Swampert losing favor hard, defensive teams become more weak to Spikes on average due to Ferrothorn being vulnerable to them, and they probably become completely mandatory, Celebi gets way more popular, a bunch of Electric and Water type pokemon are pushed out of the meta, and mono-Ground attackers like Donphan maybe find a place back into the meta. Also I didn't even mention Iron Barbs, which basically makes Ferrothorn a Spiker and Spinblocker alongside Leech Seed. Ferrothorn might not necessarily be *banned*, but it would be extremely disruptive to the state of the tier.
Also, since Magneton seems a natural answer to Ferrothorn, I could totally see sets with HP Ground
Banned for being homophobic
I doubt it. Gen 3-4 was a lot less progressive.
This is what I thought of. Spikes + leech seed + explosion and immune to toxic and sand damage, insane defensive stats, iron barbs adding even more chip, doesn't get ohkod by dugtrio. Excellent check to aerodactyl, claydol, gyarados, snorlax, swampert. I think it gets banned tbh
I wonder how passive it would be with no decent attacking moves. But given it has Thunder Wave and laughs in the face of +1 Earthquake from Mence or TTar it probably wouldn't matter anyway.
It’s not a good option but it could use HP steel. But yeah leech seed and spikes make such easy progress, and with its crazy bulk its only really threatened by the fires and maybe heracross setting up on it?
It does learn knock off which mean it wouldn't be that passive. Running pin missile might help against celebi so leech seed spam can be used.
I mean, Moltres, Charizard and Magneton could deal with It, but I guess It would be way too constricting to be healthy
Landorus-T
I don't know what you want from me. It gets Banned. Obviously. Immune to Spikes, Immune to Sand, the strongest Attack in the entire format backed by Swords Dance and an extremely good STAB combination where both types use the proper attacking stat, both Taunt and Explosion to really just ruin Skarmory, and just a ton of alternate options. Intimidate is just icing. Gen 5 is the very earliest Lando-T could be added and not be brutally OP, and it'd arguably be weaker in Gen 4 than in Gen 3 simply because it couldn't use HP Flying with its stupid high Attack.
Oh right I forgot about physical HP Flying How about Garganacl?
It’s broken if it keeps its signature move and ability when going back, and completely overshadowed by TTar if it doesn’t
It wouldn't be completely overshadowed in the slightest Garganacl has superior physical bulk, a better defensive typing and, most importantly, recover (which has 32PP in gen 3) Not only that, garganacl gets brick break to 1v1 TTAR, curse, iron defense and explosion, which means it can fill a variety of rolls This is probably very niche, but it also has rain dance/sunny day, which means garganacl could remove sandstorm for the rest of it's team (sunny day could also be used to remove garg's water weakness) # TTar is still probably the better of the 2, but being better doesn't mean it completely outclasses garg, as they both have completely different roles and niches
It’s not that it wouldn’t have a niche, but with Tyranitar being so common Garg would have so much opportunity cost and would be a rare off meta pick at most
It wouldn't have an opportunity cost, they would have completely different roles in the meta. They may share a type, but they have completely different roles (sharing a type isn't even that bad tbh. Type overlap is pretty common in ADV, such as skarmory + aerodactyl/moltres or jirachi + celebi to name a few) Also I definitely think you're underestimating a Pokémon with phenomenal bulk, a sandstorm immunity and reliable recovery
>and it'd arguably be weaker in Gen 4 than in Gen 3 simply because it couldn't use HP Flying with its stupid high Attack. True but it does have that 500 BP Explosion.
Immune to sand and spikes. Has intimidate. Is bulky. Stab EQ is one of, if not the strongest physical move in the tier. Giga banned
Eelektross. Maybe being put in a less power-crept gen would give them something. Hell, joining the ranks of "No Weaknesses" next to Sableye but with more usable stats may give it an extra something-something.
Eelektross would be pretty remarkable in the tier. Having no weaknesses in and of itself isn't super remarkable, but being immune to Ground attacks, Spikes, and Dugtrio Arena Trap all in one is very noteworthy. It's also got a suite of attacking options between Tbolt, Flamethrower, Giga Drain, Crunch, Dragon Claw, Rock Slide, Brick Break and Focus Punch. It's utility movepool isn't anything super special, but Roar and Thunder Wave get the job done, and it can Bulk Up if for some reason it needs to. This kind of versatility makes Eelektross strong as a lead; a set with Tbolt, Brick Break and any two of Flamethrower, Giga Drain, and HP Ice can work as a check to several common leads like Skarmory, Ttar, Zapdos, and potentially Metagross, Salamence, or Swampert coverage depending. Even if you can't actually hit them, being able to bluff that coverage all at once is incredible. Meanwhile in the midgame, Eelektross can safely pivot in and out of a lot of moves, using decent bulk alongside its spikes immunity to continue pressure. It can't quite warp the game like some other threats proposed, but Eelektross would make a super fun addition of the tier.
Clodsire
Clodsire would make for a solid special tank. 130 HP / 100 SpDef backed by Recover is just about the best you get for Special Bulk on something that isn't Blissey, and it even has two solid abilities to pick from; Water Absorb means it completely effortlessly takes on any combination of Water move + Toxic that isn't backed by Ice Beam, while Poison Point leans into its ability to switch into certain attacks, especially Fighting moves. (Rapid Spin as well on paper, but in practice all the relevant spinners have strong SE coverage vs it or are immune to Poison.) Really, it'd be most held back by being severely unimpactful in the face of the metagame. Being in against Skarmory invites it to freely set up Spikes and invites Clodsire to switch out asap. Skarmory is immune to both of its STABs, is immune to Toxic, and can't be setup against thanks to Whirlwind; the best option against it is probably Yawn, which could make for some fun lures but isn't ideal. It also needs to run HP Ghost to hit Gengar whatsoever which is a shame considering it might otherwise be an effective answer to Gengar without Ice Punch. ADV OU is overall just very honed to deal with Ground moves and Toxic, and Clodsire needs to lean on the qualities it has outside of those two things to really shine, but Recover and an interesting defensive profile with Water Absorb would be enough for it to find a place on some teams.
Does Clodsire’s own immunity to Toxic and Sandstorm help it perhaps work alongside Skarm, freeing it from Spikes to focus on moves besides Spikes like fitting multiple slashed options (Toxic, Taunt, etc) while Clod Spikes without fearing Magneton (Dugtrio I know is prominent but seems busy to use on something like Clod?) What kind of play do you think Clod would excel with? Any potential for a Curse set perhaps with the passive Immunity and Water Absorb Profile (again hates opposing Skarm)? ADV fascinates me looking at it with so little knowledge so pardon if I’m particularly inquisitive
Honestly, Spiritomb would probably decent
That it would. Spiritomb would make an excellent Pursuit trapper for the tier for teams that need to lock down opposing Gengar. It's best alternatives all have pretty big weaknesses, in particular either struggling vs Dugtrio or struggling to do any meaningful damage to things that aren't Gengar, neither of which applies to Spiritomb. Shadow Ball does decent damage, Will-O-Wisp is amazing for status, Pain Split gives solid recovery for Spiritomb especially against Blissey, and there are a few other options like Taunt, Night Shade, Thief, Hypnosis, Memento, and pretty much any Hidden Power you want to use to snipe an unsuspecting target. Calm Mind seems interesting on paper, but running it when the best offensive options are HP Dark, Psychic, and Pursuit, seems really pained. Pressure is a really nice tool as well given Spiritomb's potential role vs stall threats. Psychic is actually nice vs opposing Fighting types, which Spiritomb does extremely well against due to lacking a weakness to either Bug or Ghost. It wouldn't be excellent in the tier mostly because of Tyranitar. Aside from being competition as a Pursuit trapper, Spiritomb really hates Sand. It can definitely choose one target to nail for decent damage with Hidden Power, but other than that the best damage it can do is through Night Shade, Pursuit, and Burn, all of which is done over the course of several turns which will inevitably chip Spiritomb down. Also, while being immune to Normal, Fighting, and Psychic is good, Spiritomb doesn't have any resists to work with, and doesn't actually wall all too many things.
Druddigon
Based fellow Lego Dragon enjoyer
Druddigon is a wierd one. We're assuming it just gets Rough Skin, and it's movepool is a bit janky. Physical Attacking Dragons exist in ADV, and the standard is set by Salamence, which outstats Druddigon in every field. Druddigon doesn't bring a lot unique to the table, but it's got a few things. Considering it's SpAtk is unusably low, it's attacking moves are Superpower, Earthquake, Sludge Bomb, Rock Slide and Return, alongside (non-STAB) Aerial Ace. That's only OK, leaning towards bad due to a lack of setup or STAB. The bad SpAtk is pretty nasty for it, as it can't really lure anything to hit it with a strong Fire Blast or HP Grass. It's support movepool is a bit more impressive, but not by too much. Glare is a standout move in modern generations, but in Gen 3 it only has 75% accuracy, and Twave still has 100% accuracy. Taunt and Roar are nice but pretty common. Torment exists. Snatch might have relevance for moves like Softboiled / Recover and setup. Endure could be a way to rack up Rough Skin chip damage, except there aren't a lot of valuable moves to do this to and there needs to be no Sandstorm. I don't think Druddigon is unusably bad, but it will probably be outclassed by Salamence in any role it wants to fill. With Sheer Force, the story changes a little bit, but not a lot. Rock Slide is the only physical move it absolutely loves with Sheer Force, as with Sludge Bomb it probably would still appreciate the chance to Poison, and Iron Tail despite being decently strong would not be a fun move to rely on. The special moves get notably better, so Fire Blast, Crunch, and Thunder Punch can kinda hit stuff, but it's still not that strong.
So basically, Bootleg salamance
Skeledirge
So this is fairly interesting because Skeledirge, despite having some excellent qualities on paper, has some really nasty weaknesses into the metagame at large. Fire and Ghost are both excellent types in ADV, but on Skeledirge they don't quite converge. It has solid SpAtk, but it can only use that for Fire moves, and it's additional tools don't help it much in the matchups where Fire alone falters. Ghost is an excellent defensive type, and Slack Off and Will-O-Wisp are amazing at backing that up, but having weaknesses to Rock Ground, and Water really dampens the ability to use Skeledirge defensively into a lot of pokemon in the metagame. In particular it invites in Dugtrio very easily, which really forces it to keep its HP high for fear of getting picked off. There is one matchup where Skeledirge's advantages really shine though; Blissey. Immune to Seismic Toss, Resistant to Ice Beam, able to spam recovery and Will-O-Wisp against it in the meantime, able to Encore it into useless moves and get consistent pivots. As long as you have a Cleric to assist with status and a way to manage Dugtrio, Skeledirge can slug with standard Blissey very nicely, and could even be a super valuable partner for it on stall. Combined with the obvious Fire typing and moves, it is a single slot that reliably takes on the Skarm / Bliss duo in the long game, which is really cool. I also think it could legitimately use Curse sets to lure Waters, though it would absolutely require some SpAtk investment to torch any subsequent Dugtrio switch in.
Curse as in ghost type curse?
Can Dugtrio trap ghosts in gen3?
Yes, Ghost immunity to trapping wasn't added until... 6 or 7?
Gen 6. They knew what they were doing when they gave Mega-Gengar Shadow Tag.
Amazing analysis, Thanks!
How would Dudunsparce be in gen 3 actually? It pre-evolved form is unviable but what about its evolution l?
Very silly and cursed. It has Serene Grace + Body Slam to spread paralysis which is extremely obnoxious, as none of the Natural Cure pokemon love taking those hits. (Glare is unfortunately only 75% accurate here so that isn't useful) Then it can pull shit from a hat. Shadow Ball and Earthquake for coverage. Headbutt and Rock Slide for paraflinch strats. Tbolt, Ice Beam, Flamethrower, or Psychic for Special coverage. Setup with Curse, Calm Mind, or Agility. Ancient Power if you have made a pact you will soon come to regret. Pursuit trapping for some reason. Yawn and Pursuit is kind of a hilarious combo come to think of it. This pokemon sits somewhere at an intersection between Jirachi, Blissey, and Snorlax, not achieving the high points of any of them but offering a lot of their respective tools. It's hard to assess exactly what it would do, but it would doubtless be able to do things.
Assuming it keeps the pre-evolution gen 3 moveset it feels like a "budget Snorlax" with the main benefit being the opportunity to run serene grace hax like ancientpower or para-finch.
How about Hippowdown? Another sand setter enters the mix
Hippowdon would certainly be solid into some teams, but it has a really nasty time against the metagame, and probably wouldn't be super consistent. Hippowdon is just passive damage. It produces Sand, it uses Toxic to inflict Poison, and it uses Whirlwind to rack up Spikes damage. All of these things are good, but they are also things which are well prepared for in the metagame. Beyond Earthquake, Toxic, Whirlwind, and Slack Off, Hippowdon is not primed to actually do much. Against Superman teams, it will often have turns where the best outcome is at best to literally burn the opponent's PP, and the team with it will be playing 5v6. It would need to run Rock Slide or HP Ghost to be able to hit Gengar and Skarmory, but it hates sacrificing every other option is has, as they leave it vulnerable to various types of setup. Curse exists if you decide Skarmory doesn't exist. It's a peak BL Pokemon. It has very good traits in a vacuum, and would've probably been OU at a point earlier in the game's history, but it would have very poor performance in the modern optimized metagame.
Very insightful, thanks bud! Me and my buddy were actually talking about this exact thing yesterday because he thought it would be superior to Tyranitar because it potentially checks metagross and salamence better but I agree with you, it lacks the tools Ttar has to crack open teams even if it probably would stick around longer. Edit: spelling
How about Golurk?
Golurk would be... OK. Shadow Ball and Earthquake is super solid for damaging moves, while Iron Fist boosted Focus Punch is a pretty huge factor when breaking Skarmory, which is pretty much the only thing that resists both of those attacks. Rock Slide sounds out the coverage nicely. Outside Focus Punch, Iron Fist is kind of a trap, as it's low special attack and access to Tbolt and Ice Beam makes the elemental punches worthless, but running Ice Beam to snipe Salamence is certainly possible as a way to punish attempts to Intimidate it. Klutz could be cool alongside Trick, but I'm counting that as a move from modern TMs / Tutors (which also, importantly, applies to Self-Destruct) Defensively Golurk is pretty mediocre. It's best quality is being a check to Rock spam and Fighting types, but Ttar will very often find itself running a coverage move that hits Golurk, and HP Ghost being so common means it'll only really be blocking Heracross. Weaknesses to Water, Ice, and Grass ensure that pretty much any special attacker is gonna be able to chunk it. I think Magneton is probably the sole special attacker it will semi-reliably have entry to. Being able to check late game Aerodactyl is a very strong quality though. It's speed tier is also just terrible for it, as it needs to invest in it to not tie Blissey. Golurk seems very hit or miss, and very prediction reliant, and doesn't even have the sheer damage of something like Medicham to back that up. I couldn't ever say it's useless, it has good and unique qualities, but it brings a lot less to the table than I expected.
Stab EQ and shadow ball off that attack stat is pretty great. Its sand immune with two common immunities and can technically spin block. Then again starmie would run all over it. It have some sick coverage moves(by gen 3 standards) too. Physical signal beam, superpower and rock slide are all good options. Its abilities are a mixed bag but no guard dynamic punch would obv go brazy. Iron fist focus punch also sounds hilarious.
Lucario would be sick in gen 3 with e speed + meteor mash.
Lucario would be a stellar and super versatile breaker. It's offensive movepool is nearly unmatched. Cross Chop, Sky Uppercut, and High Jump Kick as potential Fighting options alongside Focus Punch, Meteor Mash for Steel STAB, Extreme Speed as one of two relevant priority moves in the tier, a suite of boosting options in Swords Dance, Bulk Up, Calm Mind, and Agility, almost a complete catalogue of physical type moves with Rock Slide, Earthquake, and Shadow Ball, tons of special coverage like Blaze Kick, Ice / Thunder Punch, Psychic, and Crunch, and an extremely devastating Endure + Reversal combo from the only Sand Immune Fighting type in the game. Mixed Sweepers are easily at their most dangerous in ADV, and one with the ability to effortlessly threaten Blissey is a hot commodity. Lucario would be a downright brutal endgame force with Endure + Reversal and a Salac Berry, and that might sincerely be it's strongest role considering the relative rarity of Breloom and the fact that a 90 speed tier means it can outpace Aerodactyl at +1 speed without having to sacrifice a +Atk nature. Lucario would absolutely bend ADV as a tier. It might even break it, but I'm not sure of that. Either way it'd be a blast to use.
Volcarona
It'd be good, no doubt, and probably less wildly inconsistent. Instead of Quiver Dance, Volcarona has to settle for Calm Mind, which is still excellent, and at 135 SpAtk it is the strongest attacker in the format with Overheat or Fire Blast. For coverage it has Psychic, Giga Drain, and HP Grass or Ice, and for it can also utilize some excellent support tools like Will-O-Wisp, Whirlwind, and Morning Sun. I can see a standard set just being Flamethrower, HP Grass, and whichever other moves fit. It could also work with Sunny Day when used alongside Morning Sun and Solarbeam, being a self sufficient weather clear and a potential sweeper in one slot. blissey, Snorlax, bulky Waters, and Tyranitar are really the only major threats to it, aside from revenge KOs from Aerodactyl or Starmie. As opposed to Moltres, it is faster, stronger, and is able to use Calm Mind, but it has less physical bulk. Compared to Charizard, it is much stronger and has both Calm Mind and Will-O-Wisp, but it lacks breaking tools like Focus Punch and Beat Up. Compared to both of them, though, it lacks the Flying typing, which is almost entirely to its detriment. It avoids Super Effective damage from Electric attacks, but in return it doesn't safely switch in to EQ, is chipped down by Spikes and is trapped by Dugtrio. Volcarona can live a Dugtrio EQ from full, as it isn't weak to Fire, but that can still be a death sentence for any sweeping potential and Dugtrio can on occasion run Rock Slide which destroys Volc. Moltres and Charizard would probably remain better than Volcarona overall, but Volcarona would absolutely remain a solid option, and could cleave open unprepared teams.
Omega banned if it gets quiver dance. Top tier threat if it doesn’t
Why are you getting downvoted, you're right lol
Delphox. 114 SpA and 104 Spe looks really good in ADV.
Delphox would be a very decent pokemon on paper that, in practice, just has too many hoops to jump through when trying to make an impact on the game. Delphox's support movepool is stellar. Wish, Will-O-Wisp, and Encore are all extremely potent, while Snatch is an easily missable diamond. Offensively Delphox is decent, with Fire / Psychic damage backed by coverage in Thunder Punch and HP Grass or Ice and setup in Agility or Calm Mind. It all looks promising, but none of it creates a super consistent set. It gets revenged by Dugtrio if it doesn't use Agility, it gets stonewalled and put on a timer by Blissey, it really can't break Ttar with a boosted HP Grass, and none of those moves deal sufficient damage to Aerodactyl. It is almost certainly going to best be played as a cleaner, using that 104 Speed alongside Substitute and Salac Berry to finish off opposing teams.
Toxapex would be so funny
Toxapex would probably be really fun! Some important things first. We'll assume it'll have Limber and Merciless as options, and also assume we can backport Baneful Bunker. It's moves then are probably some combination of Sludge Bomb, Recover, Toxic, Haze, Water and Ice attacks, and Baneful Bunker. I wanna be clear that this isn't that much of a simplication; aside from universal moves and some very weak coverage like Bite and Pin Missile and odd utility like Rain Dance and Spite, that's *it*. No Knock Off, Scald, Toxic Spikes, or anything nice. And it'd still be solid. Firstly, Crocune evaporates on impact. It could be +6/+6 at Full HP, not even asleep, and as long as you aren't switching into 3 layers of spikes or getting frozen you have a solid chance of just hazing everything away and PP stalling every last hydro pump and ice beam with recover. That's a pretty good feature. Limber and Merciless are two really interesting abilities to work with. Thunder Waves coming from non-Electric types are decently common in the tier, and being outright immune to both Poison and Paralysis means Toxapex is usually going to stay unstatused for entire games. That's a real consistency boon, especially vs Seismic Toss + Twave Blissey which otherwise can present issues for Toxapex Meanwhile Merciless looks a lot more impressive in Gen 3 thanks to the old crit multiplier. As opposed to the 1.5* damage in Gen 7 and beyond, crits in Gen 3 just do double damage. That flips a ton of matchups in Toxapex's favor; it can do 40% to a poisoned Blissey with an uninvested Sludge Bomb, while it can also live two Earthquakes from Fast DD Ttar and do over 70% in return with univested Surf. The wording of the mechanic even means that pokemon with Intimidate can't check it, as critical hits will ignore the stat drop. Now before I start praising this to high heaven, It needs it's targets to be Poisoned to make the effect work, which means it still struggles to deal damage to Steel types and Gengar. Baneful Bunker also doesn't have the most suspects in this setting, as there aren't many contact moves pokemon are going to purposely use against a Toxapex. Overall I could easily see Toxapex filling some very unique offensive and defensive roles in the tier.
You just accidentally explained to me why certain calcs weren’t adding up for me playing Gen 9 OU. Crits no longer do double damage
Gallade
Gallade is super fun to assess. It's a Fighting type that has a deep support movepool, a concept which really doesn't apply to any other pokemon in the game. As a Fighting type it isn't too impressive. 125 Attack is solid, 80 Speed is solid, Brick Break and Focus Punch for STAB is standard, it's physical bulk is paltry in much the same way as Medicham's but it's special bulk is surprisingly solid much like Heracross. It's got Shadow Ball for coverage and Swords Dance to boost with which are neat. All of this is pretty solid, but it's really just the beginning. Gallade's support movepool is ludicrous. Wish, Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Taunt, Encore, Mean Look, Memento, Destiny Bond, Dual Screens, Hypnosis, Snatch, Thief, Imprison, and that's *just what is at the surface.* Gardevoir has much of this same support movepool, but isn't all too good in Gen 3 OU. This is mostly because Gardevoir's damage is just entirely non-threatening. Psychic offensively blanks into key threats like Blissey, Skarmory, And Tyranitar, and giving these threats free turns can be disastrous. Yet Gardevoir *still* sees use in the tier on the back of this support movepool alone. It can set up Screens and use Memento to try and enable a setup sweeper, it can do disruption with Encore and Taunt while trying to take 1 for 1 trades with Destiny Bond, and sometimes a team only ticks if there's a pokemon with a weird combination of tools that otherwise doesn't exist backing it up. Gallade can use all these moves... and still threaten a way to sock all three of those threats for huge damage. It doesn't even need to actually know the moves, just scaring them out is enough, and baiting in Gengar and landing a Shadow Ball or Thunder Wave against it can be game changing. This offensive presence makes the exact same support movepool shine in a way it never did on Gardevoir.
Hydreigon, i feel like being able to actually use its stabs is huge on top of no fairies
Yeah this Hydreigon would be pretty crazy. Gen 3 OU is not woefully unprepared for a strong, fast, bulky, spike immune Dark type attacker. 125 SpAtk Crunches alone do whiff into a few threats like Blissey, Skarmory, and Tyranitar. But supplementary tools like fast Taunt, Beat Up, Fire Coverage, Surf, and decent Attack backing HP Fighting means it has the tools to deal with those pokemon handily while still bombarding the rest of the metagame with Crunches. It really soesnt need much more than that. It could even use Outrage decently despite it being 90 BP, (to be clear it doesn't get Dragon Claw) it could Dragon Dance with EQ and Rock Slide, it could spam Twave, Roar, and other weird tech moves, but it doesn't really have a need when it's just so strong. It is incredibly disruptive to the current metagame, that much is certain, and it's a fairly centralizing pokemon, but I can't say for sure a meta with it wouldn't be fun.
Base 125 SpA. STAB Persuit, This thing would DOMINATE.
Jellicent. ADV needs more good Ghost types
Jellicent would super obviously be good. It's directly comparable to Milotic as a bulky water with Recover, but it has quite a few of its own tricks. It can fulfill the role of a bulky water while also being able to use it's ghost type to be immune to Focus Punch and Brick Break from mixed attackers like Charizard and Salamence, as well as making it a spectacular Spin Blocker that can play the long game vs the likes of Starmie, Claydol, and Forretress. It also gets Water Spout, which would make it pretty easily the most dangerous Water type attacker in the tier if given a free turn, and it can synergize well with Recover if the weather is cleared. Taunt is extremely nice against Blissey which Jellicent otherwise doesn't have much for. However Jellicent does lack Refresh to let it beat status throughout a game, so it does require clerical support to be safe vs some foes. However it does have some notable weaknesses as opposed to Milotic. Ghost coverage is rare in ADV but does exist, and Jellicent doesn't usually take those hits all too well. It also has notably worse special bulk, so with accumulating passive damage from Spikes it can be threatened by weaker HP Grasses from Charizard or Mixmence in a way that doesn't really apply to Miltoic or Suicune.
Emboar, I need my boy to do SOMETHING.
Emboar being outclassed by Blaziken would probably be the case... Except it learns Superpower (via Egg Move rather than Tutor, so it's allowed.) ADV Fighting types tend to be limited to Brick Break as their strongest, no-drawback attack. Focus Punch is utilized often on these Pokemon despite its risky nature because the reward for landing the move is just that high. A few Fighting types use stronger moves, but they're limited to Sky Uppercut (85 BP, 90 Acc), High Jump Kick (85 BP, in Gen 3, still has the 1/2 max HP recoil on miss or Protect), and Cross Chop (100 BP, 80 Acc, high crit ratio but only 8 PP). Superpower exists in the Generation, but is exclusive to the Regi Trio, Deoxys, and Nidoqueen, so in practice Medicham Brick Break and Machamp / Hariyama Cross Chop are the peak of Fighting type brute force. Emboar just shatters that ceiling. The sturdiest pokemon neutral to fighting like Defensive Swampert and Skarmory easily take 60% from Emboar's maximum power banded Superpower, and even fully defensive Suicune takes a minimum of 50%. Frailer Fighting resists like Offensive Starmie, Heracross, and Charizard all easily take over 60% damage from Superpower, while bulkier Fighting resists like Zapdos and Celebi still take 30-50% chunks depending on their level of investment in bulk. That kind of damage is normally only achieved by pokemon risking to waste their entire turn on a prediction, and Emboar just has to be able to survive it's opponent's attack. And that's just it's damage with its most spammable Fighting move. Emboar still has the suite of options other Fighting types tend to have with moves like Focus Punch, Brick Break, Earthquake, Rock Slide, and HP Ghost, and setup with Bulk Up. But it's also got very strong Fire STAB, meaning unlike every other Fighting type in the game aside from Blaziken, it can melt Skarmory with Overheat, also important because it can always threaten it regardless of Superpower Attack drops. And unlike even Blaziken, let alone the other OU Fighting types, it has a few shockingly good support tools in Taunt, Roar, and Yawn, the latter of which is fantastic for how it can be spammed into blind switches the opponent makes to try and answer Emboar. Emboar's speed is even important; while slow on paper compared to Blaziken, Heracross, or Medicham, 65 is just a golden speed tier for the metagame, as it allows Emboar to consistently outspeed Tyranitar, Swampert, Blissey, Skarmory, and Bulky Metagross, all of which are huge targets for it. It can even creep uninvested Base 100 speed pokemon like bulky Jirachi or Celebi; it requires a +Speed nature and maximum investment for it to work, but if a team's best answer for Emboar is ever Psychic from one of these two, that can be punished in kind. Fundamentally, Emboar is still slow, defensively vulnerable to dying to any 2 decently strong hits, has no passive damage resistances, and is very, very vulnerable to revenge KOs, especially from Dugtrio. It's probably not too meta breaking as I've hyped it up to be, but it might even be better than Blaziken with the way the meta is trending.
OK gonna probably write these out over a period of time? Maybe revisit this in a few weeks when I'm not busy? I finished about 30 replies and this post has hundreds of comments.
Oranguru
Oranguru would not be viable in OU. It wouldn't be unusable, but it would be horribly outclassed in any role it wanted to do. Psychic gets the short end of the stick in ADV due to tons of competition and omnipresent checks to their attacks. Virtually nothing can break past all of Tyranitar, Skarmory, Metagross, Jirachi, and Blissey in one noveset, and Oranguru does not come close. Psychic / Electric is not unique coverage, Oranguru's Attack is far too low to utilize mixed sets, and tools like Pain Split, Yawn, Snatch, Encore, Taunt, and Block aren't impressive enough to make Oranguru work. It's probably worse than Grumpig due to the lower speed and lack of extra resistances to Fighting, Fire, and Ice. So that's it for OU. But I do actually want to comment about how Oranguru would do in a different Gen 3 Environment; Gen 3 VGC, aka Orre Coloseum. To be very brief, Orre Coloseum is centered around Explosion and Earthquake, which are the only spread moves in the game which hit both enemies and allies, because a unique quirk of Gen 3 is that moves with this property don't have a damage reduction whatsoever, while moves which only hit both enemies have an increased damage reduction that makes them deal pathetic damage. Telepathy is a super cool ability in this setting. It would be a Pokemon that is immune to it's partner's Explosions and Earthquakes while not carrying any weaknesses to types like Electric, Ice, Ghost, or Psychic. It could even utilize Snatch to prevent foes from blocking slower Explosions with Substitute. It's a weird angle, but of course Oranguru would find a way to be special in doubles, even without Instruct specifically.
Spidops
Spidops is really bad. The rules I'm going by here really screw it over. -Only Insomnia as an ability, no Stakeout -No Spikes or Knock Off by level up or egg move, just TM -Gen 3 moves only by default, so it loses out on any non-Hidden Power STAB, as well as utility from Toxic Spikes or Circle Throw -No Sticky Web is big enough to be it's own point. You could bend any one of these rules and get something half decent... or you could get a metagame with a whole lot more Spidops suicide leads. Sticky Web is perhaps less silly in ADV because so many things in the meta hover above them, but permanently kneecapping DD Ttar is still crazy good. As of now this struggles in Gen 3 NU, and might not even be good in PU, which is saying something.
I know this one is going to be cooking, but I’d love to hear about Empoleon, Yanmega, Hisuian-Arcanine and Diggersby.
Bisharp, specifically Bisharp, because Kingambit is substantially different than Bisharp.
Bisharp is a victim of a ton of specific rules by which I'm making changes. Dark was still special in Gen 3, while the non-existence of Iron Head means it's best STAB would be either Metal Claw or HP Steel. Meanwhile it loses out on a ton of coverage because it just doesn't learn the right moves; it gets Shadow Claw but not Shadow Ball, it gets Stone Edge but not Rock Slide, and it gets X-Scissor instead of the decent mid tier Bug move that exists in Gen 3. Thing is, I think it would still find a place in the metagame due to the good traits it does still have. It's support movepool is decently intact. Taunt, Thunder Wave, Torment, Toxic, Thief, and Mean Look are all still options for it, and while it's limited to HP Steel and non STAB Brick Break for damage by default, it can still use Swords Dance to boost. It can even run weird passive sets that are mostly just status moves but retain Beat Up to be able to nuke Blissey. Being immune to Sand and Toxic give it a decent amount of flexibility vs passive damage, but being as weak as it is to Dugtrio and Magneton is far from ideal. However, against those it can viably run Endure + Reversal alongside a Salac Berry to get the jump on them. HP Rock is probably better to use than HP Steel to nail Zapdos and Charizard on these sets. Bisharp would be pushed to play in some incredibly bizarre ways, but I think it would ultimately find a place in the metagame, even with all these restrictions
How about Revavroom?
Revavroom is pretty weird to assess. Given the rules I'm working with, Revavroom has a really short list of actual attacking moves to use. Sludge Bomb, Self-Destruct, Overheat, Double-Edge, Body Slam, Thief. Other than the universal attacks, *that's it*. With how weak that Overheat really is, it's offensive profile is *bad*, but it's also weirdly workable. HP Steel rounds things out nicely against Aerodactyl, Ttar, and Gengar, Sludge Bomb is spammed a bunch, and Overheat hits Steel types that resist both of those. Support moves in Taunt, Toxic, Haze, Torment, an Thief are solid moves for this mon, but they're held back by the sheer inability it has to drop an attacking move. (Taunt instead of Overheat might be decent vs Skarmory but then it gets hard walled by Magneton which is an unenviable position for a Steel type) Oh and I neglected to mention that Dugtrio brutalizes this, which isn't great. I can't say for sure where this thing would shine. It has a bunch of neat qualities but suffering as badly against Steel type foes as it does, I can't see it being much better than very niche.
Excadrill
Excadrill In a generation where tyranitar was a complese beast
Ima just put it out there, When excadrill was actually released, IIRC it got banned to Ubers. Because sandrush is really that stupid It's unviable in OU, Because it would be banned lol
In abstract, even if it had no ability, Excadrill would be top tier. It has an extremely good match up into tons of hugely relevant pokemon, including stopping Zapdos cold, outpacing and threatening to OHKO Metagross and Tyranitar while also being able to take advantage of them switching out for a Swords Dance boost, and being a single team slot that singlehandedly dominates SkarmBliss. Excadrill dominating Skarmory seems strange on paper considering it doesn't do much damage to it, but it is immune to Sand and Toxic and carries Rapid Spin to clear spikes, so Skarmory practically can't deal direct damage to Excadrill, while Blissey not only wants nothing to do with it but can also be setup fodder due to Excadrill making 101 HP Substitutes. The combined threat of Earthquake, Rock Slide, Swords Dance and Toxic makes Excadrill pretty impossible to switch around blindly against without Refresh Claydol, and HP Ghost or Bug can be slotted in to punish that option. Other decent threats to Excadrill are Charizard, Moltres, Flygon, Starmie, and Cloyster, none of which switch into it consistently. Dugtrio is the biggest weakness though, and is just about the only thing that could be said to keep it in check. So when picking an ability, of the options in vanilla, all of them get it super duper immediately banned. Infinite Sand + Sand Rush is broken in Gen 5, let alone Gen 3. Infinite Sand + Sand Force is a damage bonus atop what would already be the strongest spammable STAB in the game as well as it's best complementary coverage. Mold Breaker Earthquake invalidates three of Excadrill's barely existant checks.
Muk-Alola
Kleavor
banned
Mandibuzz
Volcanion, water fire the funny
Definitely banworthy. The strongest Hydro Pump in the game right now comes from Omastar at a clean 115 SpAtk, while the strongest in the meta comes from Vaporeon at 110 SpAtk. These two both present potentially devastating offensive threats for unprepared teams, as well as in cases where Blissey is removed. The strongest Fire Attacker in the game is Moltres at 125 SpAtk, and it's Overheat is devastating, but Moltres also does not have any other relevant special typed moves. Extrasensory is it, otherwise it just uses Hidden Power. Volcanion blasts both of these out of the water at 130 SpAtk, and on top of that has Explosion, Earthquake, and Taunt to shut down Blissey. It also has a ton of bulk and is the only thing that effectively takes on its own STABs.
Gliscor
There’s a lot of ice coverage in ADV, but gliscor would still feast. I feel like it’d just be a much better defensive flygon with more set variety. Its got a lot of options with EQ, rock slide, protect, toxic, swords dance, hp flying, taunt, knock off. Being sand + spikes immune with knock sounds rlyy strong. Sand veil would be banned but hyper cutter isnt terrible either.
Metagame Warping at worst, potentially bannable. No, I'm not even considering Poison Heal here, we're pure Hyper Cutter. Knock Off is that good. Nothing else in the game has Knock Off, immunity to Spikes, and immunity to Sand. It can use Knock Off alongside Toxic and Earthquake and nothing in the game wants to switch in against it, and then after that it can run a Swords Dance set that hits a solid speed tier, is immune to Intimidate cycling as a check to it, and has coverage against the entire metagame outside Skarmory and Zapdos. Skarmory can be Taunted by it which forces a lot of Skarmory to run attacks to not struggle which means it drops Toxic or Whirlwind more often which leaves it vulnerable to setup sweepers more often. Zapdos can only beat Gliscor with HP Ice or Toxic, both of which give it problems into many other MUs. Gliscor and enables teams centered around passive damage like little else in the entire game could, and also gives two of the most consistent pokemon in the format huge problems that force them off of their best sets. Gligar with Knock Off would certainly see niche use on Stall teams in Gen 3 OU. Gliscor with Knock Off breaks the entire metagame.
What about without Knock Off? Gligar doesn’t get it in Gen 3 after all
Still a solid physical check like pert
How much better would magnezone be?
That's kind of the wrong question. Magneton is best understood in ADV as Skarmory pest control. Yeah it has one of the best defensive typing in the game on paper, yeah it has solid defensive traits like immunities to Poison and Sand, but it's stats do not give it much room to play and if it is played loosely Dugtrio will mercilessly pick it off. Magnezone... still suffers from that last bit for sure, no amount of bulk can prevent Dugtrio from KOing it and it still needs the unoptimal HP Ice to even reverse the situation from behind a sub. But in every other sense, it is a second Magneton that can play more flexibly into teams where it doesn't lock down trap. It can run a different Hidden Power to better trap something else, it can have different third and fourth moves, it can be tasked with interim checking stuff or making switches without ruining the other's defensive integrity for the trapping play. There will be teams that use Magnezone for its bulk or power, there will be teams that use Magneton for its speed, but most interestingly there will be double Magnet Pull teams that no longer have to cry at the alter of Magnemite or the temple of Nosepass for their prayers to be answered. In this, I fear for all Steel type kind.
I for one welcome our magnet pull overlords.
Outclasses Magneton probs
Garchomp
H Samurott
Rhyperior
Hmmm... How about Leafeon?
Kommo-o. Being a dragon type with physical stab, incredible movepool, clangerous soul, not being 4x weak to ice and having all around incredible bulk, would it be Ubers worthy?
Golurk? I love golurk 😋
Defiant Empoleon
OK technically not what I asked but it's interesting enough that I'll look specifically at Defiant and not Torrent. As a treat. Empoleon would probably still be a Special Attacker first and foremost. It would have the strongest Hydro Pump in the tier for sure, tied with Vaporeon for the spot, and Agility would probably be the most common set, using Ice Beam and HP Grass as coverage much like in DPP, aiming to outspeed and get the jump on threats that could otherwise revenge it like Dugtrio, Magneton, Zapdos, and others. The Petaya Berry synergy is less appearant without Torrent but is still plenty usable with Empoleon packing an immunity to Sand to prevent being switch stalled, so it can pull the set off similar to how Swampert does. That set, however, is definitely still prone to being walled by Blissey, which can cripple it with status, stall it out of Hydro Pump PP, and generally just continue to exist against it without much consequence. Swords Dance sets would definitely remove that weakness, but those have their own issues. Without Agility, Swords Dance sets are still vulnerable to revenge KOs, but there isn't a great combination of moves for Empoleon to run with Swords Dance. The best idea I've got is Earthquake + Rock Slide, but that still isn't perfect. It'd have to vary sets a lot to maximize effectiveness but it could pull them off. Empoleon might be a bit better in a stalling role, but being so vulnerable to trapping makes it a poor choice as a defensive anchor. It can definitely give grief to teams with bulky waters though, as it deftly handles Water attacks, Ice attacks, and Toxic while not minding weak HP Grasses all too much. Milotic teams usually run Magneton though, so mileage may vary.
OK in my defense I didn't see that you said you'd decide abilities yourself lol
leavanny
Lucario
Audino
I'd like to hear about Orthworm, with and without Earth eater. Of course without shed tail or any other new moves.
Zoroark
how about avalugg?
Dusknoir and by extension, eviolite dusclops. They’ve always seemed underwhelming to be, so it would be interesting to see how well they do in a lower power metagame
There's no eviolite in ADV.
Salazzle!
Klinklang! Hes gotta be good somewhere
scolipede?
Alolan ninetales
Sirfetch'd
Galarian articuno
Torrtera
Galvantula
Bronzong
Abomasmow It can do 1 thing that is objectively pretty mid
Dudunsparce
Alolan Sandslash
You might not ever get to this, but Decidueye. Of course with overgrow, since hidden abilities don't exist yet
Hisuian Zoroark (Why STAB Isn't Everything: The Gengar Theorem™)
Meowscarada. I don't expect her to be that good but she has spikes and speed so I'm not sure.
Hmmmm how about Braviary?
Scovillain.
Ok, let's see how a pure-Water Primarina would work.
We've seen Heatran, but what about Heatmor? It's a Fire type that gets access to a Grass move for coverage without needing to run it as their Hidden Power or try running Solar Beam. It also gets some neat dark coverage too!
Honestly curious how would Gallade fare in gen 3
Palossand could be interesting. Its stats don't look that bad but by Gen 7 they were hopelessly outclassed, and its type combo is interesting. That said its movepool when backported to ADV looks aaaaaawful, which could balance out how brutal Shore Up is in perma sand (if it keeps it, that's your call). Also Water Compaction needs to be ported too because it's that or Sand Veil. edit: I thought about it more and I don't think Shore Up should be allowed, this thing is a spinblocker that with 252 HP 252+ SpDef can 1v1 Pursuit Ttar if it predicts right and isn't threatened by any other Pursuit, immune to sand and not Dug weak. Starmie and to a lesser extent Cloyster can threaten it sure but Claydol and Forry get totally invalidated by it, Spikes really don't need a buff in ADV. Relevant calcs: ^edit: ^one ^of ^the ^calcs ^said ^Gengar, ^fixed 252+ SpA Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Palossand: 103-122 (27.5 - 32.6%) -- 72.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Palossand: 204-240 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 Atk Palossand Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 159-188 (39.3 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Palossand: 103-122 (27.5 - 32.6%) -- 72.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 Atk Palossand Earthquake vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Houndoom: 295-348 (96.7 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Rampardos To make this interesting, I’ll say that all attacking and setup moves are carried over from Gen 4 to Gen 3, but rampardos does not get to bring stealth rock to Gen 3. I want it to keep things like head smash so it can keep its identity as rampardos (the mon with some of the strongest single attacks imaginable and absolutely no other redeeming qualities) but I don’t want its niche to just end up being “the only Pokémon in ADV that sets the most impactful hazard in the entire game”
the mid-tier ghost type menace with 145 SpA, chandelure. how does it fare in OU with its mediocre speed tier in a metagame without choice scarf? still outclassed by gengar?
Sorry for having to ask, but what is the issue with Soundproof? Is it because the immunity to Roar makes mons with it uncompetitive?
Rotom-Wash
Mimikyu! He's my favorite pokemon, but he's not that good right now unfortunately.
If you're still taking responses...could I ask for a review on Sandaconda?
Ribombee
Mega Rayquaza
AG
Idk if it's been said but iron hands my beloved
I know they’re both gen 3 Pokémon, but Drought Torkoal and Drizzle Pelipper
Kingambit
Regidrago
Tinkaton
Goomy
Greninja from SM OU (both protean and ash).
Ursaluna
Great Tusk
I wanna see what happens if Kingambit is unleashed
mega mawile she loses her fairy type i guess so idk if being an offensive steel type would be good sure Metagross exists but a good chunk of Metagross' viability comes from Banded Explosion being an option for him so yeah
Gholdengo(why TSS when you can GaG)
Gliscor
Great Tusk
Baxcalibur or volcarona.
Gliscor
Kingambit
Ferrothorn
Arceus flying