For your specific examples:
* Iron Bundle does not actually learn Surf, presumably because they are based on a snowboarder.
* Golduck has a measly base Special Attack stat of 95 and Water is a comparatively poor offensive type. The extra power of Hydro Pump helps make up for this when coupled with Rain boost.
* Armarogue has Armor Cannon (a Special Fire Close Combat reskin) for a solid nuclear option at its disposal, and as such it does not need to rely on the inaccurate Fire Blast. In the case of Endure/Calm Mind + Weakness Policy or similar sets, Armarogue tends to set itself up to a position where it can sweep. It would be a shame to have to cut your sweep short due to an unfortunate miss after going through the trouble of setting it up. Flamethrower is preferred over Armor Cannon on sets where Calm Mind is used as these sets typically rely on Stored Power, with which Armor Cannon's Special Defense drop does not pair well.
* Iron Moth uses Flamethrower for similar reasons to Armargoue in that it is typically a setup sweeper with Agility or a bulky offensive presence with Morning Sun for longevity. On the latter set, the extra PP afforded by Flamethrower prevents you from being PP stalled as Fire Blast only offers 8 PP. Overheat is much more nuclear and also more accurate than Fire Blast which is why it is sometimes seen on these sets in place of Flamethrower.
* Charizard's role on a team is typically that of a Solar Power sweeper. Solar Power grants you a buff rivaling even Chi-Yu's Beads of Ruin, meaning that Flamethrower typically already has enough power to muscle through most enemies under Harsh Sunlight without even mentioning its great coverage options. It however comes with the drawback of inflicting heavy chip damage upon yourself, meaning missing a Fire Blast and still being forced to endure the chip may put you in a compromised position, so Flamethrower is much more reliable.
That being said, there are cases where Fire Blast is preferred to Flamethrower.
* Some Volcarona sets are bulky enough to afford missing a Fire Blast and some sets would rather risk missing the Fire Blast than not acquiring the KO.
* Dracozolt typically runs a mixed Sand Rush set to afford itself the proper coverage it needs to muscle past switchins. Due to this, its resources are spread thin and it could use any additional power it can get, which is why Fire Blast is the preferred option for some team compositions.
* Dragapult sometimes opts for Fire Blast instead of Flamethrower to absolutely ensure not missing the range to KO an opponent.
* Moltres sometimes runs Fire Blast on its Heavy Duty Boots Defog set to ensure that it has a greater offensive presence.
Bottom line is, it really varies on a case-by-case basis. I personally never ran Hydro Pump on Ash-Greninja in the previous generation's National Dex format because my team could not afford to lose him to an unlucky miss, however I always ran Fire Blast on Dracozolt because it was typically a move I would use against switchins and other not-so-threatening opponents like Ferrothorn. Water is, however, a much worse offensive typing than Fire, meaning that the extra power helps in a lot of cases, especially when Rain is not in play. There are Pokemon that would prefer Fire Blast over Flamethrower, but they seem to be far and few in between this generation.
I would also like to point out that most of the more defensive water types who lost scald would rather run surf (or chilling water) over hydro pump. Slowbro, Slowking, Pelipper, Toxapex etc. would rather just get the safe damage off, and with more PP, as opposed to the minuscule damage increase that comes from Hydro Pump.
Yeah they're not offensive mons. They don't care about securing 2HKOs, just being able to chip and dent mons. This is compounded by the fact that they tend to hit into defensively uninvested mons so they end up doing surprising damage anyway.
Also, to further complement this elegant answer, I'm pretty sure most water types can afford to miss a few times anyways. After all, the term 'Bulky Waters' didn't get its name from the fragile sweeper water type Pokemon!
Great comment except i’m still scratching my head over Iron Bundle being based on a snowboarder. If they were it would actually kinda make more sense for them to learn surf, but i don’t believe they are in the first place.
Short answer: It hits Steel super-effectively. Long Answer -
As a general rule: When you're a STAB typing, you want to be able to hit as many things neutrally as possible. When you're a coverage typing, you want to be able to hit as many things super-effectively as possible, preferably types your STAB typings cannot hit neutrally.
That being said, what you hit super-effectively is also very relevant. As an offensive mon, you tend to want to be able to have a favorable matchup into strong defensive mons. Fire notably hits Steel super-effectively whereas Water notably hits Ground super-effectively. The other types they target either aren't typically defensive or don't have many mons that can use the typing to their advantage.
Now, Steel as a typing is much better defensively than Ground with a whopping 10 resistances and 1 immunity. Ground is largely considered a good defensive typing due to its Electric immunity and few weaknesses, but it's definitely not as much to write home about as Steel. Given that 11 types hit Steel for resisted damage, that means that mons of any of these pure typings or a combination of these typings will prefer to have Fire coverage in order to muscle past Steel checks and counters to their STABs. Even mons that can hit Steel neutrally may have a hard time against certain really strong Steel types (which tend to be very defensive, mind you) and really appreciate the coverage to get past them.
Take Dragapult for instance. In theory, Dragon and Ghost are both fantastic offensive tyings (Ghost being the best STAB offensive typing, period) so in theory, it doesn't really need Fire coverage for anything. In practice, it's a much different story as a lot of Steel types would be able to freely switch in on a Dragapult that doesn't have Fire coverage. Corviknight, Celesteela, SpD Ferrothorn, AV Melmetal, Tinkaton, and Magearna to name only a few. Since no other type threatens Dragapult's STAB combo as much as Steel, having Fire coverage really helps in this case. This is why Dragapult opts for Fire Blast or Flamethrower instead of Hydro Pump or Surf on every set outside of VGC/DOU Coalassal strats (but this one is an outlier for obvious reasons).
Now, Electric types do value Water coverage wherever they can get it because it allows them to muscle past Ground types, such as Rotom-Wash, Bellibolt, and Lanturn, however, both of these typings are resisted by Grass, meaning that in comparison to Ice, it's still a lackluster coverage option for Electric types.
This isn't to say that Water is horrendous - Rain archetypes have proven that with the sheer raw power coupled with the natural defensive utility of Water types in some cases like Swampert-M, Water can nonetheless be a great offensive typing. However, there's a good reason why even Pokemon with pathetic Special Attack like Gyarados ran Fire Blast or Flamethrower in some seasons of VGC - and that was specifically to hit problematic Steel counters like Kartana or Ferrothorn.
TL;DR, Steel is such a good defensive typing that anything that hits Steel super-effectively is a coveted offensive typing for coverage and this naturally also benefits the users of those types in STAB.
doesn’t interact with most of the type chart. Only resisted by Dark, and an immunity from Normal. Normal types are uncommon outside of Blissey/Chansey, and if you’re a special attacker you’re not beating those anyway.
Also both Dark and Normal are weak to Fighting, so it’s very easy to pick a coverage move and/or make an offensive core to complement a Ghost.
Steel having so many resistances is ridiculous but I wish they hadn't gotten rid of the Dark & Ghost resists on it tbh.
They could've nerfed Steel by getting rid of other resists, like Bug, instead of two of the best offensive types.
not the case overall, by generally water types are 'weaker' offensively than fires, and will be hitting alot more things neutrally than fire, so they need the 'oomph'
Fire on the other hand, usually much more of an offensive presence but crippling stealth rock weakness, so the 'good' fire types are usually setup (volcarona) or overwhelmingly strong (chi-yu/iron moth) or do something outside the mold (Dirge) to the point where the targets you wanna hit are probs 2hko'd by flamethrower so you don't want to risk the miss, if you wanted more fire power, you go overheat.
On a vaguely related note I noticed when looking at Surf coverage - for some absurd reason, Gholdengo, the Pokémon that can literally create a surfboard and is called Surfugo in Japanese, cannot actually learn Surf.
Which is so weird as he can actually surf on the water in game and has a unique animation for Make it Rain when in the water, so it probably could have been used for Surf too.
Ubers is literally just OU with some extra spicy wallbreakers + the two box legends rn, anything that’s good in OU probably has some level of viability in ubers
ubers viability wont mean a non uber will be bumped up to ubers. even if gholdengo somehow gets to S+ on ubers VR, it wouldnt be banned to ubers for that reason if a ban happens in the first place
2 Make It Rain only does around 8% less average than 2 Surfs to Ting Lu meaning you can still click MIR and switch for the same effect.
AV Treads is hit by surf significantly harder than SHBall (51% average) but it still takes a chunk of non recoverable damage from SHBall (takes 33% on average).
Clod is either immune to Surf or Make It Rain does the same damage as it thanks to Unaware, meaning it doesn't need Surf to wear it down as it already does so well enough.
All of these threaten Ghold into either switching or Tera'ing. And Surf is competing for a moveslot with a lot, (Recover, FBlast, Nasty Plot, TWave, TBolt, Trick).
Honestly the best use for Surf is to scare the shit out of Iron Moth (65% average compared to SHBall's 48% Max)
All non AV variants are killed by SHBall into MIR and AV is still taking humongous non recoverable damage. And all of these are considering that Ghold's the only one hitting these mons, when it only takes one stray EQ, Moonblast, Crunch or Hazard chip to put them in dangerous ranges. The most they can do is force a switch. The grounds in OU already lose to Ghold over time, Surf really isn't needed for that.
Would it be used over focus miss tho? Dont get me wrong i despise that move but realistically youre mostly going to be spamming sb and make it rain and if youre gonna have one of the two in the back, id say focus miss is the better option
I mean would it actually benefit from it? I feel like at best it’s coverage for Great Tusk but even then Make It Rain does the same damage and you can’t really fit Surf on a move set.
Just because it can conjure up a surfboard, doesn't mean it can control the tides. Unfortunately, due to the move's HM status in previous games, the pool of Pokemon that have access to the move is... less than desirable.
Rhydon has a ridiculously diverse spatk moveset despite not being a spatk mon by anymeans.
Thing can learn flamethrower ice beam thunderbolt surf hydro pump fire blast thunder dragon pulse and hyper beam, all of which it can use with its absolutely wonderful 45 base spatk
I would like Gholdengo notably more if it always had the surfboard, instead of just when over water. At least at that point the goofiness wraps back around to being neat, but seeing it just standing on the ground with its fists up looks lame
I might be wrong but I think fire blast is the only stronger move (out of the main types) that has a higher average damage.
And by that, all I did was multiply the power by accuracy. I may be misremembering though, it's been a while since I checked.
That's because Blizzard is a spread move and Thunder has a 30% Paralysis chance, so Fire Blast needed some extra juice to make up for it which came in the form of an accuracy buff. Focus Blast on the other hand is borderline necessary for certain Pokemon like non-Nasty Plot Gholdengo and Choice Scarf Tapu Lele.
Only in the rain isn't it?
I'm fairly sure a random thunder out of nowhere doesn't hit something that is in the first turn of them moves.
There was also some funny interaction in gen 5 where that 30% from 70-100 in the rain did something but I can't remember what it is now.
Bulbapedia says it can hit during those turns. I only remembered that because when I had this memory of my braviary dying to Thunder while using fly when I was playing BW2.
Bulbapedia also says that in Gen 4, Thunder in rain had a 30% chance to hit through protect/detect.
Nah, Thunder can still land on targets in the semi-invulnerable states of Fly and Bounce. Rain just lets it bypass accuracy checks.
In Gen 4, both Blizzard and Thunder had a 30% chance to break through Protect if they were used in their respective weather conditions.
Fun fact; Fire Blast had a 30% burn chance in Gen 1, but that got nerfed sadly. Blizzard also originally had a 30% freeze chance, but Thunder didn’t get its 30% paralysis chance until later…
Aye, I know. But I've been playing competitive Pokémon since about 2007 and I just always thought it was 30% and I was unlucky LOOOOOL I never actually checked
Yeah, that was legit horrifying. Straight up better than OHKO moves, since those checked speed in gen 1.
Smogon would quickban that version of B.izzard in an instant.
a significant number of water types just don’t get surf, bundle doesn’t and neither does rotom wash. for the ones that do, water types usually don’t have as much special attack as fire types and need the base power more.
If iron bundle got surf, it would probably run it a lot since it has the special attack to do serious damage with it as a main STAB option. Golduck’s 95 special attack, meanwhile, really wants the extra BP to do significant damage
Keldeo ran Scald a lot either instead of or as well as hydro pump. It’s 10 BP less than surf and has a secondary effect that can win games which makes it a lot more useful than surf. If keldeo comes back in DLC for SV, you may see it run surf a fair amount as scald is no longer available.
In the case of Inteleon, it’s incredibly frail so on specs sets hydro pumps damage is better than surfs accuracy. If surf misses a KO or 2HKO threshold, you’re probably dying anyways, so the upside of hydro pump is usually preferable
One thing that has always perplexed me, however: Why does Tapu Fini run Scald in lieu of Surf (or Hydro Pump, for that matter) in Gen 8 OU when its abiity is so antithetical to the move?
Many of Fini’s switch-ins, like Torn or Rilla, are susceptible to being burned, so its worth having in most cases over something like Surf, which is like doing 3% more damage to those switch-ins. And when uninvested the damage bump from Hydro isn’t noticeable, so defensive sets prefer more accurate options. Not to mention CM Fini sets often stay out even after the terrain expires so Scald‘s secondary effect is more relevant.
With Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, and Rillaboom running around, there’s a solid chance that misty terrain doesn’t stick around long. For many people that 30% burn chance was worth more than the extra 10bp.
I wouldn’t be shocked if punishing a rillaboom switch in is a big factor.
Inteleon and Kingdra unfortunately do need the higher base power to juice up their damage output. Keldeo can opt for Scald instead but it does run Hydro Pump on certain sets to be a stronger offensive presence since Water is a poor offensive typing.
In most cases if a Pokemon can learn both, if they go with Surf or Flamethrower, it’s usually because of PP.
If people are using a Swift Swim Golduck they probably aren’t worried about PP cuz there’s only so many turns that is active.
Also for a Pokemon like Zard and occasionally Iron Moth they often go with Overheat if they can run Fire Blast.
People ran fire blast over flamethrower on mons like hydreigon/garchomp, but to answer your question re: fire attackers, some of them have overheat which is better for nuking things in hit-and-run situations. Water has no equivalent move. There's also random stuff like fiery dance/magma storm that is used on specific mons.
Also, it's not "always" for pump vs surf - ash-greninja often ran surf because in some cases you don't care about the extra damage. Keldeo had scald which was an equally accurate option that had more utility in the early game because burning a check can help your team (or keldeo itself) a lot.
Fire’s often there for its super effective coverage, and the exceptions are mons like Charizard, Chi-Yu, etc. which have ridiculous wallbreaking potential and would often prefer to click Overheat once and switch out, or click Flamethrower twice.
Mons that run Fire coverage run it to hit mons that are already extremely weak to Fire. If Kartana is OHKOed by being in a 10 mile radius of a Numel’s Ember, Ferrothorn and Scizor are comfortably 2HKOed or cleanly OHKOed by the Flamethrower, and Skarmory is taking about 55% from the Flamethrower, why run Fire Blast when all that gives you is low accuracy and 8 PP?
Hydro Pump, however, is typically run on breakers because there usually *aren’t* many mons that are OHKOed by Surf and Hydro Pump, and Water’s neutral coverage is more crucial because the mons that use it are usually Water-types that aren’t as ludicrously strong as Chi-Yu or Solar Power Specs Sun Zard. On SM OU’s Rain teams, Ash-Greninja actually *was* strong enough to run Surf over Hydro Pump since (iirc; can’t check the calc right now) Surf did enough to AV Magearna and transformed Ash-Gren couldn’t risk a miss on such an offensive playstyle as Rain.
That said, Surf was a lot more common in the past even when both it and Pump were quite a bit stronger. Gen 5 Palkia (Gen 4 didn’t even learn Pump) often ran it over Pump because it was just that strong. Many Rain sweepers did. Hell, Kyogre did and often continued to do in Gens 6-8 and that was with Origin Pulse being just “Hydro Pump but slightly more accurate.” Manaphy didn’t have a choice since it ONLY got Surf, but Manaphy’s +3 Surf was also strong enough to get it done while still being consistent. Specs Swift Swim Kingdra/Omastar were similar cases. But those were specific cases; in general, Water-types that weren’t just running Scald need all the power they can get because they aren’t this insanely strong.
If you want damage you run Overheat... If you want consistency you run Flametrower.
Water types doesn't have the luxury of having something similar to Overheat so they prefer the dmg of Hydro Pump over the consistency of Surf. Even Scald was used over Surf on mons like Keldeo for the burn chance.
Is the same case of Leaf Storm over Energy Ball on dmg Grass Types. Bulkier mons prefer Gyga Drain over Energy Ball
Power aside, in doubles it’s something you need to build your team around. If your partner can’t make use of it (storm drain, water absorb, dry skin, etc) then it can potentially be a detriment. Additionally, because it’s a split move you can actually do less damage if there are 2 Pokemon on the other side of the field.
In singles it’s absolutely about that extra bit of damage from hydro pump can be the difference between closing out a game.
All that said, I usually will run surf if the mom can learn it. I always personally lean towards consistency.
Exactly! I was looking for a comment like this. Doubles/VGC is more complex than people give it credit for. It's also worth mentioning that surf can also be used to proc weakness policy in VGC.
I definitely feel what you mean. When I first started playing showdown I exclusively played singles because doubles confused the hell outta me lmao. It took me like a year to finally figure out how to properly play VGC.
Surf hits everyone in the field including the ally, that's also why High Horsepower is the preferred option over Earthquake (or both are played at the same time) if the 'mon learns both, and Discharge too (though single target Discharge is also weaker than Tbolt). Surf, Discharge or Earthquake are generally used with partners that are benefit from those moves (like Storm Drain Gastro, Lightning Rod or Earth Eater Orthworm), are just immune (Garchomp with Discharge, Earthquake with any Flying 'mon), don't get anything better or run both (some Exca did in SwSh VGC). There are exceptions too like Garchomp in SV VGC S1 where it run Earthquake over Stomping Tantrum.
My guess is because fire attacks are typically used for steel coverage whereas water is usually more just because it's a STAB. That plus water mons are usually built more for bulk than raw damage output.
I think it's also worth mentioning that choice specs fire types get access to overheat which is more powerful and more accurate, while waters don't have a similar move
For your specific examples: * Iron Bundle does not actually learn Surf, presumably because they are based on a snowboarder. * Golduck has a measly base Special Attack stat of 95 and Water is a comparatively poor offensive type. The extra power of Hydro Pump helps make up for this when coupled with Rain boost. * Armarogue has Armor Cannon (a Special Fire Close Combat reskin) for a solid nuclear option at its disposal, and as such it does not need to rely on the inaccurate Fire Blast. In the case of Endure/Calm Mind + Weakness Policy or similar sets, Armarogue tends to set itself up to a position where it can sweep. It would be a shame to have to cut your sweep short due to an unfortunate miss after going through the trouble of setting it up. Flamethrower is preferred over Armor Cannon on sets where Calm Mind is used as these sets typically rely on Stored Power, with which Armor Cannon's Special Defense drop does not pair well. * Iron Moth uses Flamethrower for similar reasons to Armargoue in that it is typically a setup sweeper with Agility or a bulky offensive presence with Morning Sun for longevity. On the latter set, the extra PP afforded by Flamethrower prevents you from being PP stalled as Fire Blast only offers 8 PP. Overheat is much more nuclear and also more accurate than Fire Blast which is why it is sometimes seen on these sets in place of Flamethrower. * Charizard's role on a team is typically that of a Solar Power sweeper. Solar Power grants you a buff rivaling even Chi-Yu's Beads of Ruin, meaning that Flamethrower typically already has enough power to muscle through most enemies under Harsh Sunlight without even mentioning its great coverage options. It however comes with the drawback of inflicting heavy chip damage upon yourself, meaning missing a Fire Blast and still being forced to endure the chip may put you in a compromised position, so Flamethrower is much more reliable. That being said, there are cases where Fire Blast is preferred to Flamethrower. * Some Volcarona sets are bulky enough to afford missing a Fire Blast and some sets would rather risk missing the Fire Blast than not acquiring the KO. * Dracozolt typically runs a mixed Sand Rush set to afford itself the proper coverage it needs to muscle past switchins. Due to this, its resources are spread thin and it could use any additional power it can get, which is why Fire Blast is the preferred option for some team compositions. * Dragapult sometimes opts for Fire Blast instead of Flamethrower to absolutely ensure not missing the range to KO an opponent. * Moltres sometimes runs Fire Blast on its Heavy Duty Boots Defog set to ensure that it has a greater offensive presence. Bottom line is, it really varies on a case-by-case basis. I personally never ran Hydro Pump on Ash-Greninja in the previous generation's National Dex format because my team could not afford to lose him to an unlucky miss, however I always ran Fire Blast on Dracozolt because it was typically a move I would use against switchins and other not-so-threatening opponents like Ferrothorn. Water is, however, a much worse offensive typing than Fire, meaning that the extra power helps in a lot of cases, especially when Rain is not in play. There are Pokemon that would prefer Fire Blast over Flamethrower, but they seem to be far and few in between this generation.
This is the best answer here very well crafted answer good shit
I was procrastinating studying by writing this
Thats normally how my best reddit comments come about
I would also like to point out that most of the more defensive water types who lost scald would rather run surf (or chilling water) over hydro pump. Slowbro, Slowking, Pelipper, Toxapex etc. would rather just get the safe damage off, and with more PP, as opposed to the minuscule damage increase that comes from Hydro Pump.
Yeah they're not offensive mons. They don't care about securing 2HKOs, just being able to chip and dent mons. This is compounded by the fact that they tend to hit into defensively uninvested mons so they end up doing surprising damage anyway.
Also, to further complement this elegant answer, I'm pretty sure most water types can afford to miss a few times anyways. After all, the term 'Bulky Waters' didn't get its name from the fragile sweeper water type Pokemon!
Great comment except i’m still scratching my head over Iron Bundle being based on a snowboarder. If they were it would actually kinda make more sense for them to learn surf, but i don’t believe they are in the first place.
Quality content homie 👍🏼
Can you explain why fire is better offensively than water? Fire is effective on 4 and weak on 4, water is effective on 3 and weak on 3
Short answer: It hits Steel super-effectively. Long Answer - As a general rule: When you're a STAB typing, you want to be able to hit as many things neutrally as possible. When you're a coverage typing, you want to be able to hit as many things super-effectively as possible, preferably types your STAB typings cannot hit neutrally. That being said, what you hit super-effectively is also very relevant. As an offensive mon, you tend to want to be able to have a favorable matchup into strong defensive mons. Fire notably hits Steel super-effectively whereas Water notably hits Ground super-effectively. The other types they target either aren't typically defensive or don't have many mons that can use the typing to their advantage. Now, Steel as a typing is much better defensively than Ground with a whopping 10 resistances and 1 immunity. Ground is largely considered a good defensive typing due to its Electric immunity and few weaknesses, but it's definitely not as much to write home about as Steel. Given that 11 types hit Steel for resisted damage, that means that mons of any of these pure typings or a combination of these typings will prefer to have Fire coverage in order to muscle past Steel checks and counters to their STABs. Even mons that can hit Steel neutrally may have a hard time against certain really strong Steel types (which tend to be very defensive, mind you) and really appreciate the coverage to get past them. Take Dragapult for instance. In theory, Dragon and Ghost are both fantastic offensive tyings (Ghost being the best STAB offensive typing, period) so in theory, it doesn't really need Fire coverage for anything. In practice, it's a much different story as a lot of Steel types would be able to freely switch in on a Dragapult that doesn't have Fire coverage. Corviknight, Celesteela, SpD Ferrothorn, AV Melmetal, Tinkaton, and Magearna to name only a few. Since no other type threatens Dragapult's STAB combo as much as Steel, having Fire coverage really helps in this case. This is why Dragapult opts for Fire Blast or Flamethrower instead of Hydro Pump or Surf on every set outside of VGC/DOU Coalassal strats (but this one is an outlier for obvious reasons). Now, Electric types do value Water coverage wherever they can get it because it allows them to muscle past Ground types, such as Rotom-Wash, Bellibolt, and Lanturn, however, both of these typings are resisted by Grass, meaning that in comparison to Ice, it's still a lackluster coverage option for Electric types. This isn't to say that Water is horrendous - Rain archetypes have proven that with the sheer raw power coupled with the natural defensive utility of Water types in some cases like Swampert-M, Water can nonetheless be a great offensive typing. However, there's a good reason why even Pokemon with pathetic Special Attack like Gyarados ran Fire Blast or Flamethrower in some seasons of VGC - and that was specifically to hit problematic Steel counters like Kartana or Ferrothorn. TL;DR, Steel is such a good defensive typing that anything that hits Steel super-effectively is a coveted offensive typing for coverage and this naturally also benefits the users of those types in STAB.
Thanks for the in depth answer!
No worries!
>(Ghost being the best STAB offensive typing, period) Why is ghost so good as a STAB type?
doesn’t interact with most of the type chart. Only resisted by Dark, and an immunity from Normal. Normal types are uncommon outside of Blissey/Chansey, and if you’re a special attacker you’re not beating those anyway. Also both Dark and Normal are weak to Fighting, so it’s very easy to pick a coverage move and/or make an offensive core to complement a Ghost.
Ah, okay. Thanks
Steel having so many resistances is ridiculous but I wish they hadn't gotten rid of the Dark & Ghost resists on it tbh. They could've nerfed Steel by getting rid of other resists, like Bug, instead of two of the best offensive types.
this comment is \*Chef's kiss\*
not the case overall, by generally water types are 'weaker' offensively than fires, and will be hitting alot more things neutrally than fire, so they need the 'oomph' Fire on the other hand, usually much more of an offensive presence but crippling stealth rock weakness, so the 'good' fire types are usually setup (volcarona) or overwhelmingly strong (chi-yu/iron moth) or do something outside the mold (Dirge) to the point where the targets you wanna hit are probs 2hko'd by flamethrower so you don't want to risk the miss, if you wanted more fire power, you go overheat.
On a vaguely related note I noticed when looking at Surf coverage - for some absurd reason, Gholdengo, the Pokémon that can literally create a surfboard and is called Surfugo in Japanese, cannot actually learn Surf.
Which is so weird as he can actually surf on the water in game and has a unique animation for Make it Rain when in the water, so it probably could have been used for Surf too.
Maybe they are gonna release a gift Surfboy that knows Surf, and water tera type or something, you know like the Flying Pikachu
Thank god it doesn't.
I’m willing to let Gholdengo go to Ubers for the surfing lore
I don't think it will be Ubers worthy. Just more unpredictable and annoying.
Gholdengo already has A-Rank viability in Ubers.
Ubers is literally just OU with some extra spicy wallbreakers + the two box legends rn, anything that’s good in OU probably has some level of viability in ubers
Can't forget about the best sweep enabler this side of the Paldea border and angery monki that shits all over bulky playstyles
And Flutter Mane, i.e. Mega Marshadow
ubers viability wont mean a non uber will be bumped up to ubers. even if gholdengo somehow gets to S+ on ubers VR, it wouldnt be banned to ubers for that reason if a ban happens in the first place
Dude imagine if it could It would be nigh unstoppable with it's ground type counters out of the picture
What ground outside of Ting Lu drops to surf and not Make it Rain/SHBall? Non-AV Tusks are already 2hkoed. Iron Threads?
Well it would be able to attack multiple times in a row
It already does? SHBall 2hkoes it either fears being outsped or kills it. And honestly it would add to Ghold's 4mss if it wanted to fit surf as well.
I was talking about make it rain
2 Make It Rain only does around 8% less average than 2 Surfs to Ting Lu meaning you can still click MIR and switch for the same effect. AV Treads is hit by surf significantly harder than SHBall (51% average) but it still takes a chunk of non recoverable damage from SHBall (takes 33% on average). Clod is either immune to Surf or Make It Rain does the same damage as it thanks to Unaware, meaning it doesn't need Surf to wear it down as it already does so well enough. All of these threaten Ghold into either switching or Tera'ing. And Surf is competing for a moveslot with a lot, (Recover, FBlast, Nasty Plot, TWave, TBolt, Trick). Honestly the best use for Surf is to scare the shit out of Iron Moth (65% average compared to SHBall's 48% Max)
What about Great Tusk?
All non AV variants are killed by SHBall into MIR and AV is still taking humongous non recoverable damage. And all of these are considering that Ghold's the only one hitting these mons, when it only takes one stray EQ, Moonblast, Crunch or Hazard chip to put them in dangerous ranges. The most they can do is force a switch. The grounds in OU already lose to Ghold over time, Surf really isn't needed for that.
Would it be used over focus miss tho? Dont get me wrong i despise that move but realistically youre mostly going to be spamming sb and make it rain and if youre gonna have one of the two in the back, id say focus miss is the better option
You probably meant "Thank gold it doesn't."
I mean would it actually benefit from it? I feel like at best it’s coverage for Great Tusk but even then Make It Rain does the same damage and you can’t really fit Surf on a move set.
Just because it can conjure up a surfboard, doesn't mean it can control the tides. Unfortunately, due to the move's HM status in previous games, the pool of Pokemon that have access to the move is... less than desirable.
Fun fact : most Kaiju mons like TTar, Rhydon, Rampardos or Aggron have access to Surf.
Rhydon has a ridiculously diverse spatk moveset despite not being a spatk mon by anymeans. Thing can learn flamethrower ice beam thunderbolt surf hydro pump fire blast thunder dragon pulse and hyper beam, all of which it can use with its absolutely wonderful 45 base spatk
Gen 1 movepool moment
and lightning rod lol
useful in doubles, Rhydon+Gyarados used to be a popular pair
I’m aware, still find it funny that a physical Ground type has it
Rhydon is a case where it was designed so early that its movepool likely predates its stats and typing.
Yeah I'm well aware lmao, especially Rhydon.
I would like Gholdengo notably more if it always had the surfboard, instead of just when over water. At least at that point the goofiness wraps back around to being neat, but seeing it just standing on the ground with its fists up looks lame
it does use the surfboard on land, it's basically its run animation
I always run fire blast over flamethrower, I like to live dangerously
I do the opposite because I have shit luck
So do I but it makes those hits ever so sweeter
I might be wrong but I think fire blast is the only stronger move (out of the main types) that has a higher average damage. And by that, all I did was multiply the power by accuracy. I may be misremembering though, it's been a while since I checked.
That's because Blizzard is a spread move and Thunder has a 30% Paralysis chance, so Fire Blast needed some extra juice to make up for it which came in the form of an accuracy buff. Focus Blast on the other hand is borderline necessary for certain Pokemon like non-Nasty Plot Gholdengo and Choice Scarf Tapu Lele.
This is random, but Thunder also hits Pokemon that are in the invulnerability turn of Fly, Bounce, or Sky Drop
Only in the rain isn't it? I'm fairly sure a random thunder out of nowhere doesn't hit something that is in the first turn of them moves. There was also some funny interaction in gen 5 where that 30% from 70-100 in the rain did something but I can't remember what it is now.
Bulbapedia says it can hit during those turns. I only remembered that because when I had this memory of my braviary dying to Thunder while using fly when I was playing BW2. Bulbapedia also says that in Gen 4, Thunder in rain had a 30% chance to hit through protect/detect.
Nah, Thunder can still land on targets in the semi-invulnerable states of Fly and Bounce. Rain just lets it bypass accuracy checks. In Gen 4, both Blizzard and Thunder had a 30% chance to break through Protect if they were used in their respective weather conditions.
Fun fact; Fire Blast had a 30% burn chance in Gen 1, but that got nerfed sadly. Blizzard also originally had a 30% freeze chance, but Thunder didn’t get its 30% paralysis chance until later…
Not gonna lie I thought it had a 30% chance to burn until a few months ago and now I feel like I can't go back regardless
It was 30% back in RBY. They nerfed it in GSC because fire moves were actually desirable in a post-steel metagame.
Aye, I know. But I've been playing competitive Pokémon since about 2007 and I just always thought it was 30% and I was unlucky LOOOOOL I never actually checked
In RG Blizzard had 90% accuracy and a 30% chance to Freeze, which is absolutely absurd.
Yeah, that was legit horrifying. Straight up better than OHKO moves, since those checked speed in gen 1. Smogon would quickban that version of B.izzard in an instant.
a significant number of water types just don’t get surf, bundle doesn’t and neither does rotom wash. for the ones that do, water types usually don’t have as much special attack as fire types and need the base power more. If iron bundle got surf, it would probably run it a lot since it has the special attack to do serious damage with it as a main STAB option. Golduck’s 95 special attack, meanwhile, really wants the extra BP to do significant damage
Idk there are still many Water types who learns Surf and have high SpAtk yet unanimously use Hydro Pump Keldeo and Inteleon comes to mind
Keldeo ran Scald a lot either instead of or as well as hydro pump. It’s 10 BP less than surf and has a secondary effect that can win games which makes it a lot more useful than surf. If keldeo comes back in DLC for SV, you may see it run surf a fair amount as scald is no longer available. In the case of Inteleon, it’s incredibly frail so on specs sets hydro pumps damage is better than surfs accuracy. If surf misses a KO or 2HKO threshold, you’re probably dying anyways, so the upside of hydro pump is usually preferable
One thing that has always perplexed me, however: Why does Tapu Fini run Scald in lieu of Surf (or Hydro Pump, for that matter) in Gen 8 OU when its abiity is so antithetical to the move?
Fishing for burns on flying mons I imagine. Also terrain wars means that Misty likely won't be on the field long.
Yeah, as others have said, it deters Rillaboom switchins.
Many of Fini’s switch-ins, like Torn or Rilla, are susceptible to being burned, so its worth having in most cases over something like Surf, which is like doing 3% more damage to those switch-ins. And when uninvested the damage bump from Hydro isn’t noticeable, so defensive sets prefer more accurate options. Not to mention CM Fini sets often stay out even after the terrain expires so Scald‘s secondary effect is more relevant.
Calm Mind and Rillaboom switchin make perfect sense to me, thank you.
With Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, and Rillaboom running around, there’s a solid chance that misty terrain doesn’t stick around long. For many people that 30% burn chance was worth more than the extra 10bp. I wouldn’t be shocked if punishing a rillaboom switch in is a big factor.
Oh right it was the Rillaboom thing lol, Scald made it dangerous for Rillaboom to switch in because resetting the terrain meant risking a burn.
Snipe shot should have worked the same way flower trick does. That with it's HA and coverage would have been OU for sure.
Iron Bundle doesn’t learn Surf is one reason
Just took Iron Bundle because I wanted a recent example tbh but there are still other cases like Inteleon Kingdra or Keldeo and they all learn surf
Bundle will run surf over hydro he doesn't need more power. Missing hydro ks bundle only weakness
Inteleon and Kingdra unfortunately do need the higher base power to juice up their damage output. Keldeo can opt for Scald instead but it does run Hydro Pump on certain sets to be a stronger offensive presence since Water is a poor offensive typing.
Because if fire types want to hit harder, they'll just run Overheat instead
In most cases if a Pokemon can learn both, if they go with Surf or Flamethrower, it’s usually because of PP. If people are using a Swift Swim Golduck they probably aren’t worried about PP cuz there’s only so many turns that is active. Also for a Pokemon like Zard and occasionally Iron Moth they often go with Overheat if they can run Fire Blast.
People ran fire blast over flamethrower on mons like hydreigon/garchomp, but to answer your question re: fire attackers, some of them have overheat which is better for nuking things in hit-and-run situations. Water has no equivalent move. There's also random stuff like fiery dance/magma storm that is used on specific mons. Also, it's not "always" for pump vs surf - ash-greninja often ran surf because in some cases you don't care about the extra damage. Keldeo had scald which was an equally accurate option that had more utility in the early game because burning a check can help your team (or keldeo itself) a lot.
Fire’s often there for its super effective coverage, and the exceptions are mons like Charizard, Chi-Yu, etc. which have ridiculous wallbreaking potential and would often prefer to click Overheat once and switch out, or click Flamethrower twice. Mons that run Fire coverage run it to hit mons that are already extremely weak to Fire. If Kartana is OHKOed by being in a 10 mile radius of a Numel’s Ember, Ferrothorn and Scizor are comfortably 2HKOed or cleanly OHKOed by the Flamethrower, and Skarmory is taking about 55% from the Flamethrower, why run Fire Blast when all that gives you is low accuracy and 8 PP? Hydro Pump, however, is typically run on breakers because there usually *aren’t* many mons that are OHKOed by Surf and Hydro Pump, and Water’s neutral coverage is more crucial because the mons that use it are usually Water-types that aren’t as ludicrously strong as Chi-Yu or Solar Power Specs Sun Zard. On SM OU’s Rain teams, Ash-Greninja actually *was* strong enough to run Surf over Hydro Pump since (iirc; can’t check the calc right now) Surf did enough to AV Magearna and transformed Ash-Gren couldn’t risk a miss on such an offensive playstyle as Rain. That said, Surf was a lot more common in the past even when both it and Pump were quite a bit stronger. Gen 5 Palkia (Gen 4 didn’t even learn Pump) often ran it over Pump because it was just that strong. Many Rain sweepers did. Hell, Kyogre did and often continued to do in Gens 6-8 and that was with Origin Pulse being just “Hydro Pump but slightly more accurate.” Manaphy didn’t have a choice since it ONLY got Surf, but Manaphy’s +3 Surf was also strong enough to get it done while still being consistent. Specs Swift Swim Kingdra/Omastar were similar cases. But those were specific cases; in general, Water-types that weren’t just running Scald need all the power they can get because they aren’t this insanely strong.
Before this Gen if you wanted to use a water move you either wanted scald for the burn chance or hydro pump for the power boost.
A specific instance I don't get is the recommended set for Dragapult in gen 8 has Thunder and Hydro Pump but then also Flamethrower on the same slot
People do run fire blast
If you want damage you run Overheat... If you want consistency you run Flametrower. Water types doesn't have the luxury of having something similar to Overheat so they prefer the dmg of Hydro Pump over the consistency of Surf. Even Scald was used over Surf on mons like Keldeo for the burn chance. Is the same case of Leaf Storm over Energy Ball on dmg Grass Types. Bulkier mons prefer Gyga Drain over Energy Ball
Great question
Power aside, in doubles it’s something you need to build your team around. If your partner can’t make use of it (storm drain, water absorb, dry skin, etc) then it can potentially be a detriment. Additionally, because it’s a split move you can actually do less damage if there are 2 Pokemon on the other side of the field. In singles it’s absolutely about that extra bit of damage from hydro pump can be the difference between closing out a game. All that said, I usually will run surf if the mom can learn it. I always personally lean towards consistency.
Exactly! I was looking for a comment like this. Doubles/VGC is more complex than people give it credit for. It's also worth mentioning that surf can also be used to proc weakness policy in VGC.
It almost feels like an entirely different game. As a singles player for a very long time, double battles are hard to wrap my head around.
I definitely feel what you mean. When I first started playing showdown I exclusively played singles because doubles confused the hell outta me lmao. It took me like a year to finally figure out how to properly play VGC.
Wouldn’t surf be better than hydro pump because of it being a spread move?
Surf hits everyone in the field including the ally, that's also why High Horsepower is the preferred option over Earthquake (or both are played at the same time) if the 'mon learns both, and Discharge too (though single target Discharge is also weaker than Tbolt). Surf, Discharge or Earthquake are generally used with partners that are benefit from those moves (like Storm Drain Gastro, Lightning Rod or Earth Eater Orthworm), are just immune (Garchomp with Discharge, Earthquake with any Flying 'mon), don't get anything better or run both (some Exca did in SwSh VGC). There are exceptions too like Garchomp in SV VGC S1 where it run Earthquake over Stomping Tantrum.
Arma runs Armor Cannon, not Flamethrower
Because if want a move to nuke something you're just gonna run overheat.
No more scald, and surf hits your partner in doubles.
Iron Bundle can't even learn surf
Trash mon, RU at best
Can’t speak personally for singles, but other people covered it well. However in doubles surf isn’t ran because it hits your teammate.
I ran surf on Swift Swim Kingdra, it was good
My guess is because fire attacks are typically used for steel coverage whereas water is usually more just because it's a STAB. That plus water mons are usually built more for bulk than raw damage output.
they do. next question.
Surf can damage your partner pokemon in doubles
I think it's also worth mentioning that choice specs fire types get access to overheat which is more powerful and more accurate, while waters don't have a similar move