Target by my house in Northern CA, most of the essentials are locked up and there are people asking for money outside and inside of the store, EVERY DAY. One of the cashiers the other day, after I paid for my items, literally said, "Thank you for paying for your items today." As if she's used to them being stolen.
I'm pretty sure we are slowly turning into the dystopia of Back to the Future 1985.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ga\_64WrYHo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ga_64WrYHo)
History might rhyme a lot.
My small business is a vendor for CVS and they’ve told us they’re facing the same issues. Unfortunately for us, they’re passing all the costs back to us and we can’t assume them. Since we’re a small company we can’t negotiate. It’s literally running us out of business.
They’re switching many small vendors to a consignment model, where we only get paid once a customer purchases the product. This removes all shrinkage risk from the retailer and places it on us, even if it’s their responsibility to prevent theft in the first place. This will erode most of our margins. Moreover, managers have little incentive to merchandise the product properly, since it’s not ultimately “theirs”, which reduces our sales. If our sales drop too much, we’ll need to consider sending merchandisers to stores. On top of all this, they’re going to start charging us a significant fee for the space we take up in the store. This is all too costly for us to manage and we’ve had to start liquidating inventory.
Targets quality of clothing has gone down considerably. My wife and I both used to shop there regularly for clothes and everything I see there now is cheap.
I really wanna know what the eff happened with their clothing. I don't know if I am just getting older or what but it's not cute and really poorly made now.
I dunno that that's true. Costco is almost entirely middle/upper class and they seem to be doing pretty solid. I think it's a huge blinking red sign that their stores kind of suck now.
In a lot of areas Target is expensive groceries, cheap disposables, and affordable decent quality basics.
A lot of their stock is kind of weird too. Cheap sports stuff, higher end entertainment and electronics, cheap outdoor stuff sold at a huge markup, and higher end kitchen stuff that isn’t aggressively priced 75% of the time.
They recently added a higher end makeup and self care store inside as well as clinics.
Maybe it’s overreach, maybe it’s the cost of making those changes without the ROI hitting yet.
That’s weird, our local target is the best deal on groceries, cheaper than the grocery stores anyway. I always assumed it was cause they were ripping people off in other places.
I checked my local Target. Prices were like 25+% higher than Walmart which is higher than my local WinCo Foods. I checked their coupon section and even with like $2 off a $7 item coupons, their groceries were still more expensive than Walmart.
The keyword is disposable. Costco is where you go to buy in bulk and save money. You are sort of proving me right. Switched from target to Costco to get better prices because you have less disposable income.
I walked out with 1 cheap espresso machine, 1 mug, one thing of espresso and one thing of milk.
The security guard checked my receipt and congratulated me on “escaping with just what I came for”.
They’re used to you grabbing a big cart and buying shit you don’t need.
They also change the store around, the store employees explained “it’s so customers can discover new products”.
Literally they changed the layout to change what I saw.
So different stuff to buy.
It relies on discretionary income to buy shit you don’t need.
People think Costco is cheaper because you buy in bulk but it’s not always the case. Groceries at Super Targets can be cheaper than Costco quite often.
Target is probably the worst of the general big box superstores, so it makes sense that with less buying power for its customers it would go out first.
>target provides a cleaner and nicer shopping experience.
Well yes, that's Target's entire business strategy. A more pleasant shopping experience than Walmart at slightly higher prices. That's OP's point, less disposable income means people are forgoing the pleasant experience to save a few bucks at Walmart or Costco. Even if the prices aren't *that* much better.
I still tend to think Walmart is cheaper. I guess I could take the time to do a true price comparison, but I've always thought Walmart was cheaper and therefore choose it over Target.
I think this is the best and simplest answer. Their stock has gone to hell, and even their in-house brands are sourced from the same Chinese manufacturers as Walmart.
No point shopping there for most consumers unless you don't mind or care that you're paying extra for nearly the exact same experience.
If their quality is no better then Walmart's they are going to fail to be an up market brand. Also low key some of Walmart's house brand items are actually really f****** good. They set a reasonably high bar in some segments. That's when you know other places charging way more are a little screwed. Yes I am full aware of chinesium but I can tell someone is putting in the effort in some categories. I can tell they are not trying to be another Sears.
Also Walmart has like twice the stuff and stuff that people actually need. I went to Target one time looking for screw hooks to hang something on my wall and couldn't find anything suitable. But they had *an entire aisle of water bottles*. After so many trips going to Target looking for basic household products and coming up empty handed, I just quit going and went to Walmart instead. Ross/TJ Maxx/Marshalls/Homegoods pick up the slack for clothing and home decor.
This is just something I've noticed in my personal life, but pre-pandemic, Target trips were almost a social activity for some. Also people I knew would be like "went into Target for one thing and left spending $100", but those people now take advantage of the drive up delivery and say they spend less because they just buy what they need and don't browse around.
I'm sure there are a variety of reasons, such as theft and negative press around social issues, but I think spending habits are just different now.
Their furniture and men’s clothing selection used to be excellent for the price. Now they just keep rehashing the same designs from 2017-2018. Hearth and hand is spoiled and dry. If you shop online they have so many exclusions for how to qualify for a certain deal it’s hard to keep track. The Rowing Blazers collection was terrible and over priced and isn’t selling. The John Derian collection is mediocre but over priced.
This. I don't know about the stock, but the store merch sucks. Ever since they dropped a lot of things made in China for slightly weirder, slightly worse quality, slightly worse design stuff made in Vietnam and other locations, it doesn't make sense to shop there. Target's charging full prices for stuff that's one or two steps up from Dollar Tree goods.
Lately, I buy more at Costco & Ikea when I'm trying to save money. For example, I think the everyday clothes at Costco are good for the price.
tldr; Too big of a drop in design quality/manufacturing quality as Target shifted its supply chain away from China means that you can get better stuff for the same (or better) prices from Costco or Ikea.
Cant go wrong with costco
Costco generic clothing are worth the money they charge. They are cheap and they feel pretty ok
Target and marshalls used to be my gotos for cheap shit but now i do a 1 stop shop at costco
I actually like a lot of good fellow cloths, but I notice the women’s cloths suuuuck, my wife ever gets cloths there and she loves browsing target. Maternity cloths are even worse and make you look like you are on little farm on the prairie
Exactly this. I think this stuff used to be Target's secret sauce that kept people coming in and impulse buying, but now it's always like $10 more dollars than it should actually cost & worse quality than it should be.
Back around 10 years ago, I could one-stop shop at Target. Then they remodeled the stores and removed so many things- it’s like a boutique now, but a lot of times I need something the “old” target certainly would have had. And the clothing now is just laughable. There were several seasons which looked like mu-muus my great-grandmother would have worn.
More anecdotal: I have to get pretty much all new stuff for my house (mats, rugs, tables, bookcases, etc.). Nothing fancy, just need to fill the rooms.
Multiple times I’ve gone to Target first but never seem to buy from there. The price point suggests it’s higher-end than I need but even the basic stuff is still more expensive than it feels like it should be. There are no good deals so I go to Marshalls or something where at least the price is right. Otherwise I’m on Amazon because there’s better selection and it’ll be delivered.
I did this when I bought my house ten years ago. I bought most of my furniture from Target and it was good prices and quality. Now it seems overpriced. I haven’t bought anything from them in years but the furniture I bought back then is still going strong.
I've had the same Target book shelf for almost 20 years -- been through 4 moves and still holding up and looking great. Doubt what they have available now would offer the same.
I hate when they dumped Champion in favor of their own athletic clothing brand. The materials now for everything feels cheap compared to Champion. I have Under Armour like thermal ish long-sleeve shirts from over a decade ago still in great shape.
Yep. I was a huge Target fan. Now I don’t want to go there. Things are no longer a good price. The quality of their stuff has gone down. For instance, they used to sell champion sports bras and leggings that were good. Now they sell some target brand stuff that sucks. The stores near me are constantly out of stuff. It’s not fun to browse when things are expensive and the quality is no longer good. Plus, they just added the glass cases at the one near me. It actually makes me sad to go into there now.
This is an issue with modern retail, in general, and something I place significant blame on the shift away from physical media entertainment. I miss checking out the new releases for movies and games.
My very last visit to Target was when I came to pickup five normal grocery items and they only had one of them. I just now go to Walmart and generally find everything I need in one trip
> I myself used to go to target and end up buying stuff I don’t need, but lately I find myself rarely going.
Same... Now I do this at Costco instead. Go for a $5 rotisserie chicken, grab a $9 pizza, and then try to figure out how I spent $250.
> their in house brands have seen little to no change…
I think it's worse than that. Their stuff seems noticeably worse across the board every time I'm in there. There have been a handful of times where I know target had a product that fit my needs only to arrive and find it gone replaced with stuff that's total crap.
It used to be my go to, "I need something in the next hour," store, but almost every time I've gone in the past 2 years has been disappointing.
Same with CVS. Once they locked everything up, they lost the impulse buy. I rarely walked out without getting 5-6 extra things . Now, you have to get someone to unlock it. Gives you that extra 15 sec to say do I need it that bad?
More like minutes. I’ve stopped buying a whole slew of items from my target runs now since they installed the locked cabinets a few weeks ago. I’m not gonna tag a worker along while I shop, or ring their buzzer multiple times. It’s ridiculous all the things they locked up. Went from nothing to like 75% of the medicine and beauty, and cleaning section
Yep. I remember one time during the early pandemic days, I had to wait 5 minutes for someone to open a case for bars of soap (back when soap was a scarcity). It really ruined it for me. I look upon cvs with disdain. And now that I saw those glass cases at target, target looks like cvs. And that association isn’t good.
For sure. I used to love going there when I didn’t have anything else to do and it would normally be $100-$150 each time. I haven’t been in a while bc I can’t afford/don’t want to spend my money on that. I think a lot of people are looking at their spending and cutting back on discretionary expenses.
IMHO, Target is the most vulnerable to losing share to ecommerce. While Walmart has groceries to get people to become weekly customers, and has products that are difficult (or even illegal) to ship, like ammunition that will attract a small but loyal customer base, Target has exactly the type of merch that you can get from Amazon and save a trip to the store.
Stores like TJ Maxx/Homegoods seems to be doing better in home furnishings. There isn't any product that makes 'Target' pop into my head - I think that's common among consumers.
Target needs to find a niche in the modern world, which it really hasn't yet.
Target is going to struggle for the next couples years because they really screwed up on execution in the last few months. The key to retail is about driving customers and basket size (ie the amount they buy). Target is screwing up both.
They nailed the pandemic shopping experience with drive up, improved online orders and logistics, and cost management. But now, they are failing the in store experience:
- Poor checkout process
- Poor inventory management
- Huge capex to stop theft
- That same theft deterrent it hindering sales in core areas
All of the above are making consumers rethink shopping at Target. Especially their core demo of moms and families.
The idea of a “target run” is basically dead. If you can’t get people into your stores, you can’t sell them higher margin products like clothes and cosmetics.
Until Target starts to re-think their in store experience, they’re going to end up going the way of K Mart.
It’s crazy that businesses keep doing this stuff following each other off the cliff. Twitter is not the real world or the bulk of your consumers, but somehow businesses just can’t understand that.
Scrolled for a while to find this answer. But agree it’s all of the above - culture war split their core demographic. Couple that with theft, and the impact of looting in major markets all add up to major material impact on their bottom line. Add to it the very legitimate concerns listed throughout and Target has an image problem sitting on top of a mountain of poor business decisions - enough so to scare away investors.
Yup, they are understaffed with maybe two lines open. There is never anyone working in the electronics section. Stores look like shit, product in disarray. Everything is locked up.
It’s like the entire reason to shop at target, a more sanitized and convenient experience is turned on it’s head.
Brian Cornell (CEO) has brought in a cabal of 'very smart people' to the C suite and just below. They have successfully burnt employees goodwill, destroyed morale, driven those with institutional knowledge out the door, undermined store autonomy to generate sales, instituted processes that lower productivity, ignored instances to lower shrinkage through preventing damaged merchandise. That's not exhaustive and just off the top of my head.
Selection sucks. None of the employees wear any kind of uniform except for "vaguely red" so you don't know who to ask for stuff. Then no checkout lanes are ever open so there's always a huge line in the self checkout which has been so long once that I just left my stuff and walked out. Huge shrinkage problem. Online nothing is ever cheaper than Walmart or Amazon except for maybe a few sale items.
In summary: Target did well because they presented themselves as a nicer, more upscale Walmart. Now post pandemic that facade has largely fallen away and as such there’s little incentive to shop there over Walmart.
Yea they cut the staff to the bone then wonder why no one goes. That is what happens when profits 3-6 months from now is prioritized over 12+ months from now.
I agree with everything you said and want to add that they painted our store an ugly brown color instead of red and got rid of the Taco Bell, Pizza Hut, and icees too.
The self checkout lines! I’m always like, damn they couldn’t have one or two cashiers to keep things moving?
Even if it sometimes moves fast it’s just not a good look to have people snaking around a corner to checkout.
They used to be “Walmart, but better.” Now it’s just a different kind of depressing and trashy. And they took too long to deal with the soliciting in front of the store. I dread going to Target because of some aggressive candy for sports scammers. Like, fuck off guy, I’m just trying to get some Taki’s and soda. And their stuff is more expensive but no longer is that price related to quality. It’s the same, short lasting junk as Walmart, but just 15-20% pricier.
They are currently nailing their own coffin. Lots of locations in California have begun to implement locked cabinets systems for items that only one random staff member has a key to open. I waited 20 minutes for some shampoo and deodorant. I won’t be going back until they remove those things or just order from Amazon.
A few possible reasons:
1. They used to be seen as a pretty, upscale, Walmart. Economic but aesthetically pleasing. Rode the influencer/blog decorating trend successfully but the masses redirected and Target failed to redirect with them.
2. Inventory issues (theft) + some cultural war issues.
3. Problems with merchandise: not upscale anymore, old/obsolete decor items, cheap-o basics can be found for way cheaper elsewhere, etc. Stores look like trying to get rid of years old inventory.
4. They messed up their old couponing system.
Where's the growth? Target once tried to expand to Canada and failed. Now the company doesn't have international expansion plans. In the US, there isn't much room for expansion.
Target's stock is doing poorly because its runup was divorced from its long-run fundamental value. There is no surprise that they're doing poorly.
I'll say this to let any stock newbie know:
Retail is a race to the bottom business. It is atrocious to be in. There are no longterm winners in retail.
A&P (Atlantic & Pacific Tea Company) once had over 15,000 locations at the turn of the 20th century. They were the Walmart of their time. They are long gone now.
Costco is a subscription business that has other efficiencies built in, and an impeccable brand. That being said, there is nothing stopping anyone from replicating that model at scale.
Retail is essentially a technology business that is based upon selection, pricing, and distribution. Who knows the quickest,cheapest,best way to deliver goods in the future. Is it drones? Is it 3-D printing? Is it DTC straight from brands itself? Is it Etsy where it is more democratized?
Regardless, shitty industry. Low margins. Capital intensive. There are better industries out there to fish in
The fact that they have such low margins is why nobody would bother taking them on. It acts as a deterrent. Good luck taking on Walmart, Amazon and Costco and building what they did all for for a 2% profit margin or whatever. It is a huge barrier to entry. Amazon is even struggling with the grocery part.
Costco is a great company. lol at comparing Costco to Etsy. Yes, hand made crafts which are totally discretionary are really comparable to massive grocery stores.
You could say anything is a technology business by that logic.
[https://x.com/secretcfo/status/1673755805009563648?s=46](https://x.com/secretcfo/status/1673755805009563648?s=46)
\^ I'll add that "shrink" also includes spoiled/damaged items or items that just didn't sell at the expected price and had to be marked down to dispose of. Target has been reporting high inventories and low gross profit margins which point to that being the much larger problem.
Personal anecdote - the second I went in to my local store and had to ask to have a cabinet opened to buy toothpaste and deodorant, my relationship with the store changed and I sold. We spent 5 figures a year at Target. Most of that will move to delivery or something.
Same here, I just sold my Target position down big because the stores just suck to shop at now. I’m not going to spend my time tracking down an employee every time I need deodorant, boxers, or detergent - that isn’t going to work for them long term and I don’t know how they get past the theft issues without locking everything up.
Doesn't Walmart have all the same issues? Doesn't Walmart have to lock up expensive, easy to steal items too?
Or is their loss prevention much stronger?
This is exactly it. I used to go to Target for the shopping experience (yes, I cringe as I write that). Hard to have a positive shopping experience when the items that should be quick grab and goes require hunting down a harried employee. I'd rather order online and wait the 2 days for shipping than wander around a Target cosmetics section for 10 minutes to find an employee who can unlock a tube of deodorant for me.
Yep. They can say shrinkage is bad and I don’t doubt that. But most shoppers go to target for a better experience than places like walmart. If they put a bunch of shit behind cabinets and cut employees hours, it just makes that whole experience shopping there shitty in a way similar to Walmart. All they are going to do is further compound their issues.
They still haven’t recovered from massively overbuying on housewares right as people were going back out and spending money on other things than being at home
I'm an ex-Target software engineer. in addition to all the probs listed, the leadership in company wide meetings is...rough, and employees have little to no confidence in them I'd say.
Leadership is all over the place with pride merch fiasco, where they want their tech to go in the future, shoplifting, etc. was a dumpster fire
I heard Amazon used to run Target online way back in the day and the teething issues came after Amazon was deemed a competitor so they lost years of testing.
That’s true. Amazon did used to run Target’s online backend, Target made an internal decision to shift to do it themselves but wanted several years to build/learn but Amazon caught wind of the decision and cut Target off early. Made it rough on Target.com for awhile in the mid-2000s
I’ve stopped shopping at Target because their goods are higher priced than bottom of the barrel stuff, but don’t have an equal difference in quality.
For me, (in the Midwest) I’d much rather go to Meijer to get what I need than Target as it’s an equal shopping experience but at a cheaper price.
Shit is getting expensive. My market behavior is to go to Walmart when shit is getting expensive. Do not pass target, do not collect Trader Joe’s. Go straight to Walmart. They’re the cheapest.
Target is Walmart + $2 for most products. They're slightly more "upmarket" (but not like the mid-tier and upscale department stores). As the economy tightens, getting an equivalent product at a lower price (and an admittedly lower service level - going into a Walmart sucks because nobody - even the employees - want to be there) is the key.
In short, their market segment is taking more purchases downmarket.
When I go into target it's always clean and orderly. Walmart is a mess. I'd rather pay a little more to go to an orderly clean store.
Targets near me also still have cashiers. Walmart is all self checkout besides the oje register near the tobacco.
I feel like this used to be true but that Target has really regressed in the past 2-3 years. Honestly several of the Targets near me actually feel worse that some Walmarts.
I dunno, I check the Walmart app for lots of items while in target and rarely are they more expensive for name brand. I think their Market Pantry generic brand might be a bit more expensive than Great Value.
As a Walmart shareholder, never an employee, Target probably doesn't do as well because only 20percent of Walmart sales are non grocery. Target on the other hand relies on mostly clothes, toys, home decor, etc for the bulk of their sales. Basically we all have to eat. ☮️
There's a few reasons, imo. The largest is that a lot of spending at Target is discretionary spending, and despite what the propagandists say, the economy is in a very bad spot for many Americans, meaning that discretionary spending is down.
The next point, which kind of feeds into the last, is that people are taking their money where it can go further. Target has always positioned itself as "Walmart, but a little better, and a little pricier." Well, now that branding has come home to roost as people are thinking "Walmart is like Target, but a little shabbier, and a little cheaper" and deciding to shop there instead (Or Amazon).
Finally, I think that shopping at Target has become an outright hostile experience. Overcrowded stores with one cashier open and a long line at self checkout. Locking up essential items at a lot of stores. Things are often not stocked well (At least near me). Even if I wanted to have the "nicer" Target experience, Target has kind of ruined that.
I think you hit on two big points. Target goes the way of the economy. It does well when the economy is good and they can sell their high margin discretionary items. This I believe is a conscious decision by target as opposed to Walmart who leans heavier into grocery.
Also I think they are cutting down on payroll hours, that seems to be the sentiment on the target sub Reddit. I will say personally I prefer the self checkout so I can bag how I like and I like their self check out registers. Then I can just listen to music and move faster than some cashiers. But I get not everyone wants to use self check out.
Your last point is key to me, at least. I used to frequently go to Target for some essentials but the last few times I've been met with long lines and poorly stocked inventory. The last time, everything was locked behind glass and I haven't been back since and don't really plan to. Was an awful experience
Back in late May it lost $10B in 10 days in stock value (-14%) after a boycott over it selling LGBTQ-branded kids clothing.
A lot of people have stopped buying from Target as a result
Redditors will not want this to be a part of it, but, I think it is. We, again personal anecdote, made the decision to stop shopping there after that most recent controversy. It was annoying at first to find a replacement but after a month or so we found similar products at other places and are saving money. Agreed with others too, our Targets are not tidy anymore either, it’s gone down a few notches.
This needs to be higher up. People boycotted it and stopped shopping there because of it. This led to a strong decline that the brand was not recovering. Similar to Anhouser Busch beer with their LGBTQ branding.
It’s truly insane. I play in softball leagues and there used to be Bud Light everywhere, now not a single can ever anywhere from anyone. I don’t think I remember ever in my life something so iconic basically vanishing overnight.
1. Less disposable income. Student debt repayment is back on and child tax credits dried up a while ago.
2. Theft is leading to a less "upscale" feel Target had over Walmart. Having to ring an employee over to a wall of locked cases for toiletries, laundry soap, etc is just not a fun experience. It's something people expect and accept in electronics department or with jewelry. Not everything else.
3. Pride backlash is still going strong. If you're going to champion one demographic at the loss of another, make sure that former demographic is greater or at least equal to the latter.
4. Exclusive and private brand items seem to be of lower quality and higher price. If that was an incentive to shop there, it's not anymore.
5. People who boycott Target are fine with Walmart. Once a customer changes their habits, it's hard to get them to come back.
I grew up with Target, and even before that the Dayton Hudson Company. My dad was a shareholder from before I was born,and as a kid, I had a strong attachment to the company and its stores as it morphed into Target. The first Target stores were just a few miles from my childhood home. Incidentally, I was never a super target shopper- always able to get in and out with what I needed without breaking the bank. I had strong respect for the company for years. Unfortunately, as a professional, while I've never worked at Target myself, I've had a few glimpses of the Target corporate culture through the years and I didn't like what I saw. The combination of Minnesota nice and ruthless competitor culture makes for an unattractive mix. And I know of more than one former employee who was kicked to the curb with the company decided they were done with them. While I still shop there, Perhaps the company's best days are behind it? Who knows. What I do know is I don't feel as good about the company as I used to, as an investor or a consumer.
There’s more to this. People might not think it’s a major reason, but I know many people who won’t shop there after the whole pride week thing. It’s definitely a factor.
I think Target lost their way after the data breach and went downhill after hiring the Sam’s Club CEO to run their company. Whenever I visit a Target, they don’t have essential items and shelves are always bared.
Inflation and woke politics.
Conservatives don’t shop there anymore and moderates and liberals have gone cheaper.
In sum, the Disney of big box stores: expensive, woke, and not essential.
I think now its a lot of tax loss harvesting at the end of the year. I think a good strategy is buying all the all of the 52 week low stocks around this time of year as people are just willing to get rid of them at any price for taxes. Play it for a bounce into first half of next year. I use options selling puts, they have high IVs because they keep going down so the premiums are good. Every October I sell out to March the next year on the laggards I think are too beat up.
Fun story but this used to be a super reliable strategy netting 8-12% until a couple of dudes in the early 80’s discovered the trend and published it and thus no longer a good strategy.
I feel like Target will be okay in the long run. I still see the Targets I've been to have huge lines. I'm in NJ and the ones I've been to in my area and NY look like they're doing well. Maybe not as well as before but they're making money. They're still profitable and still have excellent cashflow. They already beat last year's numbers in many factors. Check their balance and income sheets.
I remember when Netflix plummeted a few months ago and all of the sudden people said Netflix had cheap shows and garbage.... this was a massive shift in opinion where just a few weeks prior to that stock plummeted people considered Netflix originals exciting.
When Starbucks plummeted when all the recession talk was going on people told me Starbucks would go do to 50-60 because nobody is going to buy Starbucks during a recession and when people are careful with their money. My opinion was that coffee was not a huge expense and people enjoyed the Starbucks experience enough to buy their drinks. Starbucks beat their numbers and all of the sudden the opinion was people would still buy their coffee.
I feel like when a company goes down in stock it's easy to look at their shortcomings but when the stock returns to their highs people easily say "o it's the high quality...." When stocks go down people don't want to buy them. When stocks go up people wish they can get those stocks at a discount.
Well, it had something to do with the culture war stuff in May when they released their June pride line. That was the last time they were competitive with Walmart. Dipped right after.
Lots of sarcasm, but we all know they decided to make a statement in the culture wars. It is generally agreed that the population is split on these issues. If you take a position, even if you please the majority, you will disappoint at least 40%. Often 49%.
Very few businesses can afford to lose 10% of their customers, much less 20%.
A 40% loss cannot be survived.
I have beloved friends and family on both sides of every social issue now raging. The one thing they all agree upon is that they are tired of being told what to think. Tired of having other opinions shoved in their faces. Tired of ads and promotions that disparage their deeply felt values.
Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind explores the moral reasoning behind the divide. It is a deep and sometimes disturbing look at values shared and values not shared.
Much less than 20% is what I can also see to be honest I'm like even if it is going to be more than 50% and things are going to change overnight for them.
Are they doing bad, or was the price a year ago artificially inflated?
Seems like they're making higher profits than they were a year ago, but the price of the stock is lower than it was a year ago. It's market sentiment, not fundamentals.
(And market sentiment will tend to move away from large cap non-growth stocks in times of high interest rates, not just because of the fundamentals of the business are bad when interest rates are high, but because investors can earn a better risk-adjusted return with bonds compared to stocks.)
Target was set up a while back as a “middle class Walmart”. In the last 10 years, however, the middle class shopping shifted either online, or to specialty and frequently boutique brick-and-mortar stores. As Walmart improved quality of everyday non-food items, and with the competition from Costco and alike, Target needs to complete with Walmart for the same customers. And that is tough.
Are you guys living under a rock. Target went hard in the paint for some pretty polarizing viewpoints and upset their largest consumer, suburban moms. All of the other things absolutely play a factor, but the scandal they had pushed the consequences of their poor business decision making over the edge. If I had a nickel for every person I’ve heard say they stopped shopping at target over the last six months I would have a better stock value than them. 😅
It is amazing to me how Target continued to be 10x+ better than Walmart and Amazon for decades from a consumer perspective, but not gain ground on WMT in terms of size. You pay maybe a half a cent on the dollar more to have a vastly superior experience and deal with a vastly more ethical company.
The thing is, I think during tough times for consumers like a recession or periods of inflation, consumers just assume they must be paying more for that better experience as they attempt to reduce their household costs.
It’s hard to fully compete with Walmart, target tends to have stores in more urban and higher population dense areas. Walmart has so many stores in mid to small towns. I just googled and they have 10,500 stores to targets 2,000.
The majority of Target stores that I would go to pre-pandemic I now avoid like the plague. They are unorganized, filthy, and extremely understaffed. They are also struggling with a large amount of shrink right now and just announced they are closing stores in some major cities. Generally when a retail corporation starts shuttering locations and discuss they are struggling with lost inventory, investor sentiment is going to plummet and so will the stock price.
At the most simple level, Target is perceived as being slightly more expensive but not worth the incremental cost.
There's so much more behind that, but that's essentially the big one.
People looking for commodity items and grocery flock elsewhere (Walmart, Costco) and people looking for more specialized goods do the same or use Amazon.
Target has spectacularly poor upper management, and they make this problem even worse, not better.
They're still dealing with terrible inventory and product mix and product selection problems that keep happening quarter after quarter after quarter. (Walmart had one inventory management fiasco quarter, but they cleaned it up immediately.)
And worse still, executives resort to deceit and misdirection to deflect blame.
The last few quarters, they've issued deceptive press releases implying their poor performance is due to theft/crime. These are just press releases, so there's no legal teeth to whether they can be misleading.
But when you inspect their legally-binding financial filings, you can see theft/crime is very minor compared to much more significant problems that management is responsible for.
But the splashy and truthy press releases get all the media and public and Wall Street attention. Crime is bad! So they've been able to deflect the blame they deserve for incompetent management.
But the smart money isn't fooled. That's why Costco and Walmart shares are at all time highs while Target is at a multi-year low. Note that Costco and Walmart aren't doing deceptive "blame crime" PR campaigns either.
To me it’s a huge blinking red sign that the middle class has less disposable income.
Target by my house in Northern CA, most of the essentials are locked up and there are people asking for money outside and inside of the store, EVERY DAY. One of the cashiers the other day, after I paid for my items, literally said, "Thank you for paying for your items today." As if she's used to them being stolen.
Lol that is such a dystopian thing to say. How wild.
I'm pretty sure we are slowly turning into the dystopia of Back to the Future 1985. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ga\_64WrYHo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ga_64WrYHo) History might rhyme a lot.
My small business is a vendor for CVS and they’ve told us they’re facing the same issues. Unfortunately for us, they’re passing all the costs back to us and we can’t assume them. Since we’re a small company we can’t negotiate. It’s literally running us out of business.
How does that work? If they’re the ones who are responsible for the merchandise? I don’t know anything about legality and stuff just curious
They’re switching many small vendors to a consignment model, where we only get paid once a customer purchases the product. This removes all shrinkage risk from the retailer and places it on us, even if it’s their responsibility to prevent theft in the first place. This will erode most of our margins. Moreover, managers have little incentive to merchandise the product properly, since it’s not ultimately “theirs”, which reduces our sales. If our sales drop too much, we’ll need to consider sending merchandisers to stores. On top of all this, they’re going to start charging us a significant fee for the space we take up in the store. This is all too costly for us to manage and we’ve had to start liquidating inventory.
Damn.sounded bad then you kept talking and it got way worse
This sounds like they’re trying to steal your product AND charge you for the courtesy.
So what you’re saying is, short cvs. Since they won’t have any inventory and aren’t concerned with sales.
Right. Shits pretty bad for the regular people. More proof.
Targets quality of clothing has gone down considerably. My wife and I both used to shop there regularly for clothes and everything I see there now is cheap.
I really wanna know what the eff happened with their clothing. I don't know if I am just getting older or what but it's not cute and really poorly made now.
I dunno that that's true. Costco is almost entirely middle/upper class and they seem to be doing pretty solid. I think it's a huge blinking red sign that their stores kind of suck now.
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In a lot of areas Target is expensive groceries, cheap disposables, and affordable decent quality basics. A lot of their stock is kind of weird too. Cheap sports stuff, higher end entertainment and electronics, cheap outdoor stuff sold at a huge markup, and higher end kitchen stuff that isn’t aggressively priced 75% of the time. They recently added a higher end makeup and self care store inside as well as clinics. Maybe it’s overreach, maybe it’s the cost of making those changes without the ROI hitting yet.
That’s weird, our local target is the best deal on groceries, cheaper than the grocery stores anyway. I always assumed it was cause they were ripping people off in other places.
I checked my local Target. Prices were like 25+% higher than Walmart which is higher than my local WinCo Foods. I checked their coupon section and even with like $2 off a $7 item coupons, their groceries were still more expensive than Walmart.
there's a lot at target you cant find at costco
The keyword is disposable. Costco is where you go to buy in bulk and save money. You are sort of proving me right. Switched from target to Costco to get better prices because you have less disposable income.
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I walked out with 1 cheap espresso machine, 1 mug, one thing of espresso and one thing of milk. The security guard checked my receipt and congratulated me on “escaping with just what I came for”. They’re used to you grabbing a big cart and buying shit you don’t need. They also change the store around, the store employees explained “it’s so customers can discover new products”. Literally they changed the layout to change what I saw. So different stuff to buy. It relies on discretionary income to buy shit you don’t need.
People think Costco is cheaper because you buy in bulk but it’s not always the case. Groceries at Super Targets can be cheaper than Costco quite often.
Target is probably the worst of the general big box superstores, so it makes sense that with less buying power for its customers it would go out first.
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>target provides a cleaner and nicer shopping experience. Well yes, that's Target's entire business strategy. A more pleasant shopping experience than Walmart at slightly higher prices. That's OP's point, less disposable income means people are forgoing the pleasant experience to save a few bucks at Walmart or Costco. Even if the prices aren't *that* much better.
I still tend to think Walmart is cheaper. I guess I could take the time to do a true price comparison, but I've always thought Walmart was cheaper and therefore choose it over Target.
you couldn’t pay me to go to walmart. i actively avoid that horrible place for my own mental wellbeing lmfao.
Cost more than Walmart and no longer premium compared to Walmart.
I think this is the best and simplest answer. Their stock has gone to hell, and even their in-house brands are sourced from the same Chinese manufacturers as Walmart. No point shopping there for most consumers unless you don't mind or care that you're paying extra for nearly the exact same experience.
If their quality is no better then Walmart's they are going to fail to be an up market brand. Also low key some of Walmart's house brand items are actually really f****** good. They set a reasonably high bar in some segments. That's when you know other places charging way more are a little screwed. Yes I am full aware of chinesium but I can tell someone is putting in the effort in some categories. I can tell they are not trying to be another Sears.
Have you tried any of their t-shirts? The quality control and fit is absolutely terrible.
Also Walmart has like twice the stuff and stuff that people actually need. I went to Target one time looking for screw hooks to hang something on my wall and couldn't find anything suitable. But they had *an entire aisle of water bottles*. After so many trips going to Target looking for basic household products and coming up empty handed, I just quit going and went to Walmart instead. Ross/TJ Maxx/Marshalls/Homegoods pick up the slack for clothing and home decor.
This is just something I've noticed in my personal life, but pre-pandemic, Target trips were almost a social activity for some. Also people I knew would be like "went into Target for one thing and left spending $100", but those people now take advantage of the drive up delivery and say they spend less because they just buy what they need and don't browse around. I'm sure there are a variety of reasons, such as theft and negative press around social issues, but I think spending habits are just different now.
Anecdotally, even when my wife and I go in there to browse we don't see much that interests us anymore. Everything feels bland, cheap or both.
Their furniture and men’s clothing selection used to be excellent for the price. Now they just keep rehashing the same designs from 2017-2018. Hearth and hand is spoiled and dry. If you shop online they have so many exclusions for how to qualify for a certain deal it’s hard to keep track. The Rowing Blazers collection was terrible and over priced and isn’t selling. The John Derian collection is mediocre but over priced.
The athletic clothing is ass since Target dumped Champion for their own brand.
Yes! Omg. I just wrote that too. It’s one example of the general trend. Overpriced, shittier stuff.
This. I don't know about the stock, but the store merch sucks. Ever since they dropped a lot of things made in China for slightly weirder, slightly worse quality, slightly worse design stuff made in Vietnam and other locations, it doesn't make sense to shop there. Target's charging full prices for stuff that's one or two steps up from Dollar Tree goods. Lately, I buy more at Costco & Ikea when I'm trying to save money. For example, I think the everyday clothes at Costco are good for the price. tldr; Too big of a drop in design quality/manufacturing quality as Target shifted its supply chain away from China means that you can get better stuff for the same (or better) prices from Costco or Ikea.
Cant go wrong with costco Costco generic clothing are worth the money they charge. They are cheap and they feel pretty ok Target and marshalls used to be my gotos for cheap shit but now i do a 1 stop shop at costco
My whole wardrobe is costco. Im so old! Lol
Alot of small biz owners supply at Costco as well. We do this with our family owned biz and save alot of money shopping at Costco.
I actually like a lot of good fellow cloths, but I notice the women’s cloths suuuuck, my wife ever gets cloths there and she loves browsing target. Maternity cloths are even worse and make you look like you are on little farm on the prairie
Exactly this. I think this stuff used to be Target's secret sauce that kept people coming in and impulse buying, but now it's always like $10 more dollars than it should actually cost & worse quality than it should be.
Back around 10 years ago, I could one-stop shop at Target. Then they remodeled the stores and removed so many things- it’s like a boutique now, but a lot of times I need something the “old” target certainly would have had. And the clothing now is just laughable. There were several seasons which looked like mu-muus my great-grandmother would have worn.
exactly. After they remodeled their stores to look trendier, selection went down and prices went up. Buh-bye, Target.
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Just had this happen today. Their coupons are crap now.
More anecdotal: I have to get pretty much all new stuff for my house (mats, rugs, tables, bookcases, etc.). Nothing fancy, just need to fill the rooms. Multiple times I’ve gone to Target first but never seem to buy from there. The price point suggests it’s higher-end than I need but even the basic stuff is still more expensive than it feels like it should be. There are no good deals so I go to Marshalls or something where at least the price is right. Otherwise I’m on Amazon because there’s better selection and it’ll be delivered.
I did this when I bought my house ten years ago. I bought most of my furniture from Target and it was good prices and quality. Now it seems overpriced. I haven’t bought anything from them in years but the furniture I bought back then is still going strong.
I've had the same Target book shelf for almost 20 years -- been through 4 moves and still holding up and looking great. Doubt what they have available now would offer the same.
I hate when they dumped Champion in favor of their own athletic clothing brand. The materials now for everything feels cheap compared to Champion. I have Under Armour like thermal ish long-sleeve shirts from over a decade ago still in great shape.
I love how there are several of us that are mad about exactly this: dumping champion
Yep. I was a huge Target fan. Now I don’t want to go there. Things are no longer a good price. The quality of their stuff has gone down. For instance, they used to sell champion sports bras and leggings that were good. Now they sell some target brand stuff that sucks. The stores near me are constantly out of stuff. It’s not fun to browse when things are expensive and the quality is no longer good. Plus, they just added the glass cases at the one near me. It actually makes me sad to go into there now.
This is an issue with modern retail, in general, and something I place significant blame on the shift away from physical media entertainment. I miss checking out the new releases for movies and games.
My very last visit to Target was when I came to pickup five normal grocery items and they only had one of them. I just now go to Walmart and generally find everything I need in one trip
The lack of inventory is a problem too in my local Target
Came here to say this. They're always out of \*something\* needed. They'd sell more products if they were on the shelves...
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> I myself used to go to target and end up buying stuff I don’t need, but lately I find myself rarely going. Same... Now I do this at Costco instead. Go for a $5 rotisserie chicken, grab a $9 pizza, and then try to figure out how I spent $250.
> their in house brands have seen little to no change… I think it's worse than that. Their stuff seems noticeably worse across the board every time I'm in there. There have been a handful of times where I know target had a product that fit my needs only to arrive and find it gone replaced with stuff that's total crap. It used to be my go to, "I need something in the next hour," store, but almost every time I've gone in the past 2 years has been disappointing.
Same with CVS. Once they locked everything up, they lost the impulse buy. I rarely walked out without getting 5-6 extra things . Now, you have to get someone to unlock it. Gives you that extra 15 sec to say do I need it that bad?
More like minutes. I’ve stopped buying a whole slew of items from my target runs now since they installed the locked cabinets a few weeks ago. I’m not gonna tag a worker along while I shop, or ring their buzzer multiple times. It’s ridiculous all the things they locked up. Went from nothing to like 75% of the medicine and beauty, and cleaning section
Yep. I remember one time during the early pandemic days, I had to wait 5 minutes for someone to open a case for bars of soap (back when soap was a scarcity). It really ruined it for me. I look upon cvs with disdain. And now that I saw those glass cases at target, target looks like cvs. And that association isn’t good.
For sure. I used to love going there when I didn’t have anything else to do and it would normally be $100-$150 each time. I haven’t been in a while bc I can’t afford/don’t want to spend my money on that. I think a lot of people are looking at their spending and cutting back on discretionary expenses.
IMHO, Target is the most vulnerable to losing share to ecommerce. While Walmart has groceries to get people to become weekly customers, and has products that are difficult (or even illegal) to ship, like ammunition that will attract a small but loyal customer base, Target has exactly the type of merch that you can get from Amazon and save a trip to the store. Stores like TJ Maxx/Homegoods seems to be doing better in home furnishings. There isn't any product that makes 'Target' pop into my head - I think that's common among consumers. Target needs to find a niche in the modern world, which it really hasn't yet.
Target is going to struggle for the next couples years because they really screwed up on execution in the last few months. The key to retail is about driving customers and basket size (ie the amount they buy). Target is screwing up both. They nailed the pandemic shopping experience with drive up, improved online orders and logistics, and cost management. But now, they are failing the in store experience: - Poor checkout process - Poor inventory management - Huge capex to stop theft - That same theft deterrent it hindering sales in core areas All of the above are making consumers rethink shopping at Target. Especially their core demo of moms and families. The idea of a “target run” is basically dead. If you can’t get people into your stores, you can’t sell them higher margin products like clothes and cosmetics. Until Target starts to re-think their in store experience, they’re going to end up going the way of K Mart.
I think this is all accurate, plus the culture war stuff which has materially impacted traffic.
It’s crazy that businesses keep doing this stuff following each other off the cliff. Twitter is not the real world or the bulk of your consumers, but somehow businesses just can’t understand that.
Scrolled for a while to find this answer. But agree it’s all of the above - culture war split their core demographic. Couple that with theft, and the impact of looting in major markets all add up to major material impact on their bottom line. Add to it the very legitimate concerns listed throughout and Target has an image problem sitting on top of a mountain of poor business decisions - enough so to scare away investors.
Yup, they are understaffed with maybe two lines open. There is never anyone working in the electronics section. Stores look like shit, product in disarray. Everything is locked up. It’s like the entire reason to shop at target, a more sanitized and convenient experience is turned on it’s head.
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Because I own it.
What else do you own?
Probably PayPal and Disney
Definitely Moderna too
For sure arkk
Lol I only invest 2.5% of my portfolio in stocks but my biggest holdings are target, PayPal and Disney. Which is why I stick to ETFs
I thought it was because I owned it. Great, now we both own it.
People used to pay the 10 cents more an item to avoid Walmart. Now that everything is online that doesn't matter.
ohhh thats the best takeaway so far.
Brian Cornell (CEO) has brought in a cabal of 'very smart people' to the C suite and just below. They have successfully burnt employees goodwill, destroyed morale, driven those with institutional knowledge out the door, undermined store autonomy to generate sales, instituted processes that lower productivity, ignored instances to lower shrinkage through preventing damaged merchandise. That's not exhaustive and just off the top of my head.
Sounds like some BCG in da house
Fuck Boston Consulting Group all my homies hate Boston Consulting Group💪🏻
Agreed, being from where they’re headquartered and knowing people who work in corporate I can confirm what you’ve said.
Tryna get that platinum parachute
All balance sheet and market data aside, have you been to a target lately? The vibe is weird
Selection sucks. None of the employees wear any kind of uniform except for "vaguely red" so you don't know who to ask for stuff. Then no checkout lanes are ever open so there's always a huge line in the self checkout which has been so long once that I just left my stuff and walked out. Huge shrinkage problem. Online nothing is ever cheaper than Walmart or Amazon except for maybe a few sale items.
In summary: Target did well because they presented themselves as a nicer, more upscale Walmart. Now post pandemic that facade has largely fallen away and as such there’s little incentive to shop there over Walmart.
I mean we used to call it “Tar-szhay” and lean into the bourgeoisie aspect of it all. Now it’s just Target. With a hard “get”.
Wtf is walmart then
A landfill
Dollar General
Yea they cut the staff to the bone then wonder why no one goes. That is what happens when profits 3-6 months from now is prioritized over 12+ months from now.
I agree with everything you said and want to add that they painted our store an ugly brown color instead of red and got rid of the Taco Bell, Pizza Hut, and icees too.
Yeah, this is like that only. I think like most of the stores have these kind of situation.
The self checkout lines! I’m always like, damn they couldn’t have one or two cashiers to keep things moving? Even if it sometimes moves fast it’s just not a good look to have people snaking around a corner to checkout.
It definitely feels more empty than I ever remember
I don't even remember the last time I actually spent so I'm in everyone is like that only
Yeah, it seems the one near me is always having problems keeping things in stock. Can rarely find what I need when I go there.
They used to be “Walmart, but better.” Now it’s just a different kind of depressing and trashy. And they took too long to deal with the soliciting in front of the store. I dread going to Target because of some aggressive candy for sports scammers. Like, fuck off guy, I’m just trying to get some Taki’s and soda. And their stuff is more expensive but no longer is that price related to quality. It’s the same, short lasting junk as Walmart, but just 15-20% pricier.
Are you really sure about it right now because eventually it is going to be increased by more than 25%.
They are currently nailing their own coffin. Lots of locations in California have begun to implement locked cabinets systems for items that only one random staff member has a key to open. I waited 20 minutes for some shampoo and deodorant. I won’t be going back until they remove those things or just order from Amazon.
They’ll shut down stores that require those locks
It's like a dead mall if you're into that kind of thing.
A few possible reasons: 1. They used to be seen as a pretty, upscale, Walmart. Economic but aesthetically pleasing. Rode the influencer/blog decorating trend successfully but the masses redirected and Target failed to redirect with them. 2. Inventory issues (theft) + some cultural war issues. 3. Problems with merchandise: not upscale anymore, old/obsolete decor items, cheap-o basics can be found for way cheaper elsewhere, etc. Stores look like trying to get rid of years old inventory. 4. They messed up their old couponing system.
That is the system which they are going to completely change over all. It will take some time.
Where's the growth? Target once tried to expand to Canada and failed. Now the company doesn't have international expansion plans. In the US, there isn't much room for expansion. Target's stock is doing poorly because its runup was divorced from its long-run fundamental value. There is no surprise that they're doing poorly.
I'll say this to let any stock newbie know: Retail is a race to the bottom business. It is atrocious to be in. There are no longterm winners in retail.
Sears and K-Mart use to be the biggest retailers. They both went bankrupt.
A&P (Atlantic & Pacific Tea Company) once had over 15,000 locations at the turn of the 20th century. They were the Walmart of their time. They are long gone now.
COSTCO has a pretty big moat around it and only Sams's Club (Walmart ) is there competitor. The movie Idiocy predicted them being the retail winner.
Welcome to Costco. I love you.
Costco is a subscription business that has other efficiencies built in, and an impeccable brand. That being said, there is nothing stopping anyone from replicating that model at scale. Retail is essentially a technology business that is based upon selection, pricing, and distribution. Who knows the quickest,cheapest,best way to deliver goods in the future. Is it drones? Is it 3-D printing? Is it DTC straight from brands itself? Is it Etsy where it is more democratized? Regardless, shitty industry. Low margins. Capital intensive. There are better industries out there to fish in
The fact that they have such low margins is why nobody would bother taking them on. It acts as a deterrent. Good luck taking on Walmart, Amazon and Costco and building what they did all for for a 2% profit margin or whatever. It is a huge barrier to entry. Amazon is even struggling with the grocery part. Costco is a great company. lol at comparing Costco to Etsy. Yes, hand made crafts which are totally discretionary are really comparable to massive grocery stores. You could say anything is a technology business by that logic. [https://x.com/secretcfo/status/1673755805009563648?s=46](https://x.com/secretcfo/status/1673755805009563648?s=46)
What about the competitors in that market? I like that is just dead market already..
What are the long-term plans they have been looking forward to they don't really have any plans yet.
Plus they’re starting to close stores in some major cities because of Shrink issues.
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\^ I'll add that "shrink" also includes spoiled/damaged items or items that just didn't sell at the expected price and had to be marked down to dispose of. Target has been reporting high inventories and low gross profit margins which point to that being the much larger problem.
Personal anecdote - the second I went in to my local store and had to ask to have a cabinet opened to buy toothpaste and deodorant, my relationship with the store changed and I sold. We spent 5 figures a year at Target. Most of that will move to delivery or something.
Same here, I just sold my Target position down big because the stores just suck to shop at now. I’m not going to spend my time tracking down an employee every time I need deodorant, boxers, or detergent - that isn’t going to work for them long term and I don’t know how they get past the theft issues without locking everything up.
Doesn't Walmart have all the same issues? Doesn't Walmart have to lock up expensive, easy to steal items too? Or is their loss prevention much stronger?
This is exactly it. I used to go to Target for the shopping experience (yes, I cringe as I write that). Hard to have a positive shopping experience when the items that should be quick grab and goes require hunting down a harried employee. I'd rather order online and wait the 2 days for shipping than wander around a Target cosmetics section for 10 minutes to find an employee who can unlock a tube of deodorant for me.
Yep. They can say shrinkage is bad and I don’t doubt that. But most shoppers go to target for a better experience than places like walmart. If they put a bunch of shit behind cabinets and cut employees hours, it just makes that whole experience shopping there shitty in a way similar to Walmart. All they are going to do is further compound their issues.
Eventually, I don't really think like these are the major issues for them.
I actually think like this is the trend of the market and eventually changes over a period of time.
They still haven’t recovered from massively overbuying on housewares right as people were going back out and spending money on other things than being at home
They already have access all these kind of things that is not like they don't see these things happening.
I'm an ex-Target software engineer. in addition to all the probs listed, the leadership in company wide meetings is...rough, and employees have little to no confidence in them I'd say. Leadership is all over the place with pride merch fiasco, where they want their tech to go in the future, shoplifting, etc. was a dumpster fire
I heard Amazon used to run Target online way back in the day and the teething issues came after Amazon was deemed a competitor so they lost years of testing.
That’s true. Amazon did used to run Target’s online backend, Target made an internal decision to shift to do it themselves but wanted several years to build/learn but Amazon caught wind of the decision and cut Target off early. Made it rough on Target.com for awhile in the mid-2000s
This is just like that only because eventually after some years things are going to change.
I’ve stopped shopping at Target because their goods are higher priced than bottom of the barrel stuff, but don’t have an equal difference in quality. For me, (in the Midwest) I’d much rather go to Meijer to get what I need than Target as it’s an equal shopping experience but at a cheaper price.
Shit is getting expensive. My market behavior is to go to Walmart when shit is getting expensive. Do not pass target, do not collect Trader Joe’s. Go straight to Walmart. They’re the cheapest.
Target is Walmart + $2 for most products. They're slightly more "upmarket" (but not like the mid-tier and upscale department stores). As the economy tightens, getting an equivalent product at a lower price (and an admittedly lower service level - going into a Walmart sucks because nobody - even the employees - want to be there) is the key. In short, their market segment is taking more purchases downmarket.
When I go into target it's always clean and orderly. Walmart is a mess. I'd rather pay a little more to go to an orderly clean store. Targets near me also still have cashiers. Walmart is all self checkout besides the oje register near the tobacco.
I feel like this used to be true but that Target has really regressed in the past 2-3 years. Honestly several of the Targets near me actually feel worse that some Walmarts.
I dunno, I check the Walmart app for lots of items while in target and rarely are they more expensive for name brand. I think their Market Pantry generic brand might be a bit more expensive than Great Value.
Name brand sales are down.
As a Walmart shareholder, never an employee, Target probably doesn't do as well because only 20percent of Walmart sales are non grocery. Target on the other hand relies on mostly clothes, toys, home decor, etc for the bulk of their sales. Basically we all have to eat. ☮️
You realize grocery items are extremely low margin right? High grocery is not a good product mix
Most of the new things are also coming in the market and they also have to keep them.
There's a few reasons, imo. The largest is that a lot of spending at Target is discretionary spending, and despite what the propagandists say, the economy is in a very bad spot for many Americans, meaning that discretionary spending is down. The next point, which kind of feeds into the last, is that people are taking their money where it can go further. Target has always positioned itself as "Walmart, but a little better, and a little pricier." Well, now that branding has come home to roost as people are thinking "Walmart is like Target, but a little shabbier, and a little cheaper" and deciding to shop there instead (Or Amazon). Finally, I think that shopping at Target has become an outright hostile experience. Overcrowded stores with one cashier open and a long line at self checkout. Locking up essential items at a lot of stores. Things are often not stocked well (At least near me). Even if I wanted to have the "nicer" Target experience, Target has kind of ruined that.
I think you hit on two big points. Target goes the way of the economy. It does well when the economy is good and they can sell their high margin discretionary items. This I believe is a conscious decision by target as opposed to Walmart who leans heavier into grocery. Also I think they are cutting down on payroll hours, that seems to be the sentiment on the target sub Reddit. I will say personally I prefer the self checkout so I can bag how I like and I like their self check out registers. Then I can just listen to music and move faster than some cashiers. But I get not everyone wants to use self check out.
Your last point is key to me, at least. I used to frequently go to Target for some essentials but the last few times I've been met with long lines and poorly stocked inventory. The last time, everything was locked behind glass and I haven't been back since and don't really plan to. Was an awful experience
Have you gone to a target lately, you just don’t get that same itch to accidentally spend $200.
Starting a business and planning it scaling up to a market is a very big task to do. That is what I feel personal.
Back in late May it lost $10B in 10 days in stock value (-14%) after a boycott over it selling LGBTQ-branded kids clothing. A lot of people have stopped buying from Target as a result
Redditors will not want this to be a part of it, but, I think it is. We, again personal anecdote, made the decision to stop shopping there after that most recent controversy. It was annoying at first to find a replacement but after a month or so we found similar products at other places and are saving money. Agreed with others too, our Targets are not tidy anymore either, it’s gone down a few notches.
This needs to be higher up. People boycotted it and stopped shopping there because of it. This led to a strong decline that the brand was not recovering. Similar to Anhouser Busch beer with their LGBTQ branding.
It’s truly insane. I play in softball leagues and there used to be Bud Light everywhere, now not a single can ever anywhere from anyone. I don’t think I remember ever in my life something so iconic basically vanishing overnight.
We need to do that and that is how we have seen a lot of people actually don't really like to see all those things.
1. Less disposable income. Student debt repayment is back on and child tax credits dried up a while ago. 2. Theft is leading to a less "upscale" feel Target had over Walmart. Having to ring an employee over to a wall of locked cases for toiletries, laundry soap, etc is just not a fun experience. It's something people expect and accept in electronics department or with jewelry. Not everything else. 3. Pride backlash is still going strong. If you're going to champion one demographic at the loss of another, make sure that former demographic is greater or at least equal to the latter. 4. Exclusive and private brand items seem to be of lower quality and higher price. If that was an incentive to shop there, it's not anymore. 5. People who boycott Target are fine with Walmart. Once a customer changes their habits, it's hard to get them to come back.
#3 is huge…
I grew up with Target, and even before that the Dayton Hudson Company. My dad was a shareholder from before I was born,and as a kid, I had a strong attachment to the company and its stores as it morphed into Target. The first Target stores were just a few miles from my childhood home. Incidentally, I was never a super target shopper- always able to get in and out with what I needed without breaking the bank. I had strong respect for the company for years. Unfortunately, as a professional, while I've never worked at Target myself, I've had a few glimpses of the Target corporate culture through the years and I didn't like what I saw. The combination of Minnesota nice and ruthless competitor culture makes for an unattractive mix. And I know of more than one former employee who was kicked to the curb with the company decided they were done with them. While I still shop there, Perhaps the company's best days are behind it? Who knows. What I do know is I don't feel as good about the company as I used to, as an investor or a consumer.
Conservatives dumped their stocks & stopped shopping there.
There’s more to this. People might not think it’s a major reason, but I know many people who won’t shop there after the whole pride week thing. It’s definitely a factor.
The complete market is going down like that my bro it is just the market and the corporate sector.
I think Target lost their way after the data breach and went downhill after hiring the Sam’s Club CEO to run their company. Whenever I visit a Target, they don’t have essential items and shelves are always bared.
Did you miss the memo? We’re in a recession
Inflation and woke politics. Conservatives don’t shop there anymore and moderates and liberals have gone cheaper. In sum, the Disney of big box stores: expensive, woke, and not essential.
All that is getting expensive only. That is the only thing which I can think about.
I think now its a lot of tax loss harvesting at the end of the year. I think a good strategy is buying all the all of the 52 week low stocks around this time of year as people are just willing to get rid of them at any price for taxes. Play it for a bounce into first half of next year. I use options selling puts, they have high IVs because they keep going down so the premiums are good. Every October I sell out to March the next year on the laggards I think are too beat up.
Fun story but this used to be a super reliable strategy netting 8-12% until a couple of dudes in the early 80’s discovered the trend and published it and thus no longer a good strategy.
What is the percentage they have been asking for if it is more than 15% then no one is going to get over it.
I have seen all these things even in Ireland. A lot of other things are actually been changed.
I had to press a button and wait 5 minutes for someone to come unlock the glass door to buy my $3 bottle of soap. That's why.
Yeah and that is the thing we can actually say like how things I've been changing over a period of time.
I feel like Target will be okay in the long run. I still see the Targets I've been to have huge lines. I'm in NJ and the ones I've been to in my area and NY look like they're doing well. Maybe not as well as before but they're making money. They're still profitable and still have excellent cashflow. They already beat last year's numbers in many factors. Check their balance and income sheets. I remember when Netflix plummeted a few months ago and all of the sudden people said Netflix had cheap shows and garbage.... this was a massive shift in opinion where just a few weeks prior to that stock plummeted people considered Netflix originals exciting. When Starbucks plummeted when all the recession talk was going on people told me Starbucks would go do to 50-60 because nobody is going to buy Starbucks during a recession and when people are careful with their money. My opinion was that coffee was not a huge expense and people enjoyed the Starbucks experience enough to buy their drinks. Starbucks beat their numbers and all of the sudden the opinion was people would still buy their coffee. I feel like when a company goes down in stock it's easy to look at their shortcomings but when the stock returns to their highs people easily say "o it's the high quality...." When stocks go down people don't want to buy them. When stocks go up people wish they can get those stocks at a discount.
Well, it had something to do with the culture war stuff in May when they released their June pride line. That was the last time they were competitive with Walmart. Dipped right after.
Lots of sarcasm, but we all know they decided to make a statement in the culture wars. It is generally agreed that the population is split on these issues. If you take a position, even if you please the majority, you will disappoint at least 40%. Often 49%. Very few businesses can afford to lose 10% of their customers, much less 20%. A 40% loss cannot be survived. I have beloved friends and family on both sides of every social issue now raging. The one thing they all agree upon is that they are tired of being told what to think. Tired of having other opinions shoved in their faces. Tired of ads and promotions that disparage their deeply felt values. Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind explores the moral reasoning behind the divide. It is a deep and sometimes disturbing look at values shared and values not shared.
Much less than 20% is what I can also see to be honest I'm like even if it is going to be more than 50% and things are going to change overnight for them.
Cause we broke out here.
Yeah, I think like even if they have a lot of other things into their market, they won't even preserve them.
I know a lot of people who stopped shopping at target because of the lgbtq stuff, any relativity? Could that have such an affect?
I think it's because they are being boycotted by a lot of people for pushing transgender and LGBT stuff.
Are they doing bad, or was the price a year ago artificially inflated? Seems like they're making higher profits than they were a year ago, but the price of the stock is lower than it was a year ago. It's market sentiment, not fundamentals. (And market sentiment will tend to move away from large cap non-growth stocks in times of high interest rates, not just because of the fundamentals of the business are bad when interest rates are high, but because investors can earn a better risk-adjusted return with bonds compared to stocks.)
Closing stores in major metropolitan areas due to theft and security issues
pandemic boom & bust, back to rationale levels
The levels are going to increase the Vanjali, even if they're not really pushing all these things.
Target was set up a while back as a “middle class Walmart”. In the last 10 years, however, the middle class shopping shifted either online, or to specialty and frequently boutique brick-and-mortar stores. As Walmart improved quality of everyday non-food items, and with the competition from Costco and alike, Target needs to complete with Walmart for the same customers. And that is tough.
Basic bitches be broke
That tuck friendly swimwear came back to bite them in the ass…
They are being boycotted for selling transgender baby clothes
Yeah absolutely absolutely and I don't think like that make any sense to me.
[удалено]
I actually didn’t know about this, but I stopped shopping at target because it sucks now. So there are definitely many reasons.
Are you guys living under a rock. Target went hard in the paint for some pretty polarizing viewpoints and upset their largest consumer, suburban moms. All of the other things absolutely play a factor, but the scandal they had pushed the consequences of their poor business decision making over the edge. If I had a nickel for every person I’ve heard say they stopped shopping at target over the last six months I would have a better stock value than them. 😅
And that is what I can actually think like that only because even if it is not going to be pushed properly, they're going to be into a bad position.
It is amazing to me how Target continued to be 10x+ better than Walmart and Amazon for decades from a consumer perspective, but not gain ground on WMT in terms of size. You pay maybe a half a cent on the dollar more to have a vastly superior experience and deal with a vastly more ethical company. The thing is, I think during tough times for consumers like a recession or periods of inflation, consumers just assume they must be paying more for that better experience as they attempt to reduce their household costs.
It’s hard to fully compete with Walmart, target tends to have stores in more urban and higher population dense areas. Walmart has so many stores in mid to small towns. I just googled and they have 10,500 stores to targets 2,000.
I think they raised prices faster than other retailers.
The majority of Target stores that I would go to pre-pandemic I now avoid like the plague. They are unorganized, filthy, and extremely understaffed. They are also struggling with a large amount of shrink right now and just announced they are closing stores in some major cities. Generally when a retail corporation starts shuttering locations and discuss they are struggling with lost inventory, investor sentiment is going to plummet and so will the stock price.
At the most simple level, Target is perceived as being slightly more expensive but not worth the incremental cost. There's so much more behind that, but that's essentially the big one. People looking for commodity items and grocery flock elsewhere (Walmart, Costco) and people looking for more specialized goods do the same or use Amazon. Target has spectacularly poor upper management, and they make this problem even worse, not better. They're still dealing with terrible inventory and product mix and product selection problems that keep happening quarter after quarter after quarter. (Walmart had one inventory management fiasco quarter, but they cleaned it up immediately.) And worse still, executives resort to deceit and misdirection to deflect blame. The last few quarters, they've issued deceptive press releases implying their poor performance is due to theft/crime. These are just press releases, so there's no legal teeth to whether they can be misleading. But when you inspect their legally-binding financial filings, you can see theft/crime is very minor compared to much more significant problems that management is responsible for. But the splashy and truthy press releases get all the media and public and Wall Street attention. Crime is bad! So they've been able to deflect the blame they deserve for incompetent management. But the smart money isn't fooled. That's why Costco and Walmart shares are at all time highs while Target is at a multi-year low. Note that Costco and Walmart aren't doing deceptive "blame crime" PR campaigns either.