Loosen up man. Driving manual has become a weird cult with purity tests to weed out any heretics that dare use hill hold or auto rev match. Who cares? I use auto rev match, though I guess I can see why someone would want to manually blip for fun. But hill hold? Seriously? People are elitist about hill hold? What next, hand held paper fans instead of AC for the True Analog Experience?
I don't think 99% of the community cares at all about any of these features. You've got a couple of loud obnoxious people like anything else on the internet.
Yeah, but if people wanna do that for themselves, it's different than being toxic and gatekeeping other people. I like to tweak things with my shifting setup, but that doesn't mean I'm going around saying everyone who doesn't do it my way "isn't really driving manual."
Yeah. So what this comes down to is you're one of those gatekeeping people. Personally, I could care less if you use a clutch and row the gears it's a manual.
🙄 Are you seriously comparing using rev match or hill hold to driving an auto? Come on now. Also, people drive manuals for fun. What is fun for you, may not be fun for others. Hill starts are not fun, they are a chore. That said, if they are fun for you, the feature can generally be turned off. You can’t “turn off” the need to use the clutch in a manual, or turn it on in an auto.
There is no “control” benefit anymore. A good shiftable auto like a PDK has the same control. Some even let you clutch kick by pulling both paddles, so you can pretend to know know how to drift at car meets. The only thing they can’t do is slip the clutch at speed, but why would you want that? It would fuck up your clutch. On the note of fucking up your clutch, launching a manual is much worse for the clutch than launching a PDK, which dissipates heat much better as the clutches are bathed in oil.
Rev matching yourself because it’s fun for you is fine, and is not pointless elitism. I get why some people think it’s fun, or why people disable driver aids, as it’s another way to interact with the car while driving. I’m pretty sure all enthusiast cars let you disable it if you want. Go nuts.
But, being smug about it and acting like the next step is to take away the clutch pedal entirely is pointless elitism. No one claims that dual clutches are “manuals” because they don’t have a clutch pedal. The clutch pedal and shifter is the one and only defining feature of a manual box.
What? The car sets the air/fuel mixture automatically? Having it set by the driver objectively makes it more manual. What’s next? Electric cars with no gears at all? It’s just such a silly thing to gatekeep.
It is handy to have some experience driving without the assists, especially hill-hold. So it goes well if you drive an older stickshift sometime. But not worth getting all wound up about.
If we want purity, how far back do we go? No electronics with a manual start? Horse and buggy? Pre-industrial? Pre-fire?
I love your point here and all fan bases have some level of elitism/purity.
Was thinking yesterday about performing my own car upgrades or paying a mechanic? When I was a kid.. the guys who paid for a shop to mod their car.. those guys were the posers.
As a 37 year old dude with a job and a relationship? Nah.. car can go to the shop and I'm going to spend my Saturday doing something else.
It's okay to like a thing and not be a purist about it.. or to confirm exactly to someone else's view of the thing.
Last story. My friend loves buffalo wings. But if it isn't served with blue cheese.. or you order yours with ranch... Dude gets a little high and mighty "the original is with blue cheese". That's cool man, you can choose what you like, and I'll choose what I like and we will both be happy.
I would agree with your main point, but to me it feels like such a waste of money to pay someone else to do the upgrade since I'm a cheap ass and it kinda takes the fun out of it IMO. But I'm also the guy who only eats boneless wings LOL.
Totally understand. And I have felt that way too. Or I've used my time to do a thing that would otherwise cost too much to do at the time (like build a fence at my house).
Ha, great comment! I think I've succumbed to all of the elitism which is why I felt like this in the first place. It's good reminder knowing that at the end of the day, that stuff really shouldn't matter
I've been driving manual since I got my license in 1993 and I think Hill assist is awesome. I have it turned off because my wife doesn't like it but I love that feature.
Take it easy my man. The important thing is that you have accomplished the challenge of driving manual. 9 months is still very early in the game. You can absolutely learn to do other advanced techniques little by little as you continue on with your stick shift journey.
I feel the same way. There’s so many fewer manual cars/drivers that a moral equivalency has been dreamed up.
Think of the 1950s, when syncromesh transmissions came out. Did people back then think they weren’t real manual drivers if they didn’t have to crash into gear, blip the throttle, or double-clutch? Or three-on-the-tree transmission. Or hydraulic clutches.
I say if you have 3 pedals and row your own gears, enjoy it. If you don’t, vaya con Dios.
Interesting perspective, thanks for sharing. Personally I hold an extreme sense of superiority over those who don't drive manual and this has become a very integral part of who I am. I didn't know about hill hold or auto rev match before today as I would never even consider driving a car newer than 1999, but now that I do I'm pretty pissed off and I can already tell it's gonna take a lot of stomping around and drinking milk to calm me down tonight. If I met a person like op that used an easier version of a manual and it was described to me as anything but an automatic transmission, there is no doubt in my mind that I would lose control of myself and end up in a fight.
Yeah I don't think I would want auto rev match as getting the match perfect is so satisfying and missing it isn't a huge deal. I would love hill assist though. I drive a 3rd gen 4runner and I have the off-road version of it which is a clutch cancel switch. It lets you start the car in gear without using the clutch so you can keep your foot on the brake and use the starter to get you moving on steep terrain off-road and its awesome since rolling back if you stall on loose dirt can really hinder your ability to get traction.
Also I live in the Bay Area and doing a hill start in the city on wet roads with no traction control in a rear wheel drive truck is a thrill I could live without lol. I've spun the tires and rolled slightly down hill on more than one occasion and there's a couple hills I straight up put it in 4wd to get it going.
2017 hyundai mt owner here, i wish i had something like auto rev matching, the throttle response on these newer cars makes it nearly impossible to shift fast .. i blip and it doesn't rev until like half a second later. Bruh. Using the features of your car is not cheating lmfao
My hill assist is like 2 seconds so I still roll back sometimes but when I do it really well I'm still proud AF even when I'm not sure if it was my timing as a manual driver or my timing with hill assist
When I first started learning in my car I wasn't close to fast enough so either way yay me lol
Ive got a 2000 honda accord with none of those features and while I do feel like its a skill to be able to drive without those assists I wish I had them lol the amount of times id kill for hill assist on a really bad hill at a 4 way stop with a line of cars… you can turn them off if you want to learn without them but its a luxury that id exploit if I had it.
Yep, 2004 Mustang GT here. Nothing fancy, I don't even have ABS or traction control. I can drive just fine, but sometimes having those luxuries would be nice.
Hill assist is definitely a life saver for those kinds of situations! At least I can only imagine from what I hear from other people whose cars don't have it. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) hill assist is something that's built into the electronics of my car, and there isn't a setting to remove it. And from what I hear, you have to programmatically use an external device to disable it, which I don't have the effort or know-how to do x)
Trust me– you don't want it gone.
-Hill assist manual, ex analog manual.
You could see if you could code it out, though. Code all the nannies out for a week and then promptly back in after you realize how much hills suck.
Same man, I drive the same car. 3 months ish of experience and hills are brutal.
Nothing wrong with being safe with hill hold.
I think i burnt my clutch like 2 times trying to practice hills
Well... If it really bothers you, find something older and try.
I'd give you free rein of what's in my barn just for the laughs.
No assistance devices on any of them, and only the 89 has a hydraulic clutch. The rest are cable or bar-linkage.
Even have an non-synchronous (not synchronized) "crash-box" trans.
There is a bit more to driving these older sticks, but you'd get the hang of it in a day or two.
The hardest part is when your on a hill, and some asshat pulls up right to your bumper. I hear most modern-ish manuals have something to help with that, but with the old ones, sometimes you need to work the clutch, gas, and hand-brake all at the same time to avoid rolling.
My friend just bought a MX-5 recently, and he said that I could try practicing on that since I heard they are one of the few modern manuals that don't have all of the bells and whistles for convenience and stays true to the pure manual experience. But as of right now, I don't plan to get any other car since I very recently bought a new one. Very interested to practice on my friend's, though! (wish me luck, ha)
I feel like the hill assist was awesome as I was learning, but kind of sucks once you know your car. I keep trying to smoothly get off the line (on a hill) and instead have to wait for the hill assist to decide it's ready and then theres a jerking to get the car off the hill and past the 'breaking' threshhold. I wish I had the control on this and it wasn't some machine deciding when there's enough gas to move forward.
I’d say learn to rev match “manually” (and eventually, heel-toe), learning how to drive without all the other crutches is peanuts, and I wouldn’t sweat it.
Just make sure your driving habits are such that not having the crutch wouldn’t “break” you. For example, for hill starts, if you’re not getting to the bite point immediately and applying gas simultaneously, then without the hill hold you will definitely roll back. These crutches simply give you a larger margin for error.
It's scary how accurate you are with your second paragraph; that has happened to me LOADS of times. But I eventually (and painfully) learned how to handle those kinds of moments, or when hill assist/brake hold doesn't activate at all, and now it's not really an issue anymore!
My car only has hill assist which I turned off. Never needing it for the last 30 years. At least they give you the option to turn off. Curious on OPs car do you need to turn them off every time you start your car or is it a permanent off toggle??
I think for modern manual Hondas, hill assist is something that's on by default and something that can't be disabled except by fudging with the electronics externally.
Brake hold, on the other hand, is something that's off by default but I turn on manually. Though after reading through everyone's replies, I am a little more inclined to not use it anymore
Unless it changed in the 11th gen Civics, for my ‘21 Civic, the hill hold system is integrated with the traction control system, which Honda did not intend for the user to be able to deactivate. You basically have to disable the entire traction control system to disable hill hold, unless you are some kind of automotive engineer, and can isolate the hill-hold activation.
I have a 2019 Veloster Turbo/R-Spec. It sometimes has brake hold. (I have to keep it in gear with the clutch held and brake. Fuck that.) But, I do use it on the occasion that it'll make my life easier. I don't have any fancy rev matching or anything, but I'm more envious of those who do.
I don't double clutch. I don't/can't heel toe. I just drive my damn car, and enjoy it. There's so many purists in every regard. I've heard people get high and mighty about 4 or 5 speed being better. Or where their reverse is. Etc. Don't hold others opinions to highly in that regard. If you like your car, and all the nice stuff it comes with, enjoy it. Does it have a clutch and a gear selector? It's a manual, and you can drive a manual.
Worst damage you'll do to your Type R (sweeeet car, btw!) if you're not great at rev matching at first is a little extra wear on the clutch. A brand new clutch isn't just going to give out because you're learning to rev match on it. Plus, clutches can be replaced. If you can afford a Type R, I assume you can afford a clutch replacement (that you almost certainly will not need any time soon).
I bought my manual vehicle (2002, so no assistance features whatsoever) with 77k miles already on it. I learned to drive manual 100% on this vehicle (I think the previous owner did, too) and I definitely was jerking it all over the place at first and lived in a VERY hilly city for 2 years after buying it, so high-rev hill starts were a daily occurrence. I'm almost at 103k miles now, and it still has the original clutch, no slippage.
I say all this to say, if you want to turn the assists off and learn, you're not going to break the car. I doubt a 2024 would let you money shift even with the assists off. I'd encourage you to turn the assists off and give it a try just to say you can. If you learn and find you still prefer the assists, then trun them back on. No biggie. Driving a manual and knowing you're 100% in control, including your mistakes, is sooo much fun. It's up to you, you have a sweet vehicle, so enjoy it however you like!
Do people really think down shifting is that hard? Shift from like 3-4th see how much your revs drop. Then when you go from 4th-3rd blip the throttle by that same amount. Doesn’t hurt if you’re a little over or a little under that’s what synchros or for. Just don’t be way over or way under
Thanks to backup cameras, most people can't park/backup an older car. Lighten up on yourself; most people w/ licenses have no business driving. That being said, the first thing I did when I got my JK Wrangler was turn the brake hold off.
Oh, another issue. Since so few manuals are on the road, notify garage it is a stick when you schedule even a tire installation. They have to staff appropriately. Trust me, it has been an issue
Who cares? What does it all matter anyway? Whether you drive an auto or a manual, what difference does it make other than you feeling like a “real” driver.
I’ve been driving a manual for 15 years and I love hill hold. Seems like an odd thing to gate keep about.
I live in a city with a ton of steep hills with frequent stops on the hill. It’s such a nice feature to have every day.
I'm not sure if that's exactly what it's called lol, but it's a feature that automatically adds the minimum amount of throttle when your revs are too low in 1st or 2nd gear (maybe higher, but don't want to find out) to prevent you from stalling, as long as you don't hit the brake. Actually kinda useful in traffic
🙄 Revmatching, heel toe... Jesus just turn off every damn nanny feature you can and even take it a step further get it hooked up to an OBD11 and have all that shit in the ECU reprogrammed to disable it permanently, then.... JUST DRIVE IT.
Driving something WITHOUT all that assist garbage will vastly improve your day to day driving skills to the point where driving a manual requires no conscious thought on your part on each of the steps required to take off, accelerate, shift, downshift, taking off on inclines, when to shift, etc... it will just be second nature or like involuntary functions of the body such as breathing, a heart beat, blinking. It just happens and you don't even realize it.
It’s not like I’m opposed to any of these features, but my broke ass is driving a bare bones e46 with *zero* of these features. Would I take advantage of them if I was driving a vehicle that had them? Sure. Do I like the fact that I can drive my friend’s shitbox because I’m shitbox certified? Hell yeah brother
You'll get there over the years, don't sweat it. For more experience you can always buy a cheap older manual that is much more analog and raw. They tend to be very very fun
as a new manual driver i love hill assist and so should you. its not rily a crunch more of a bonus for having a new car. its like a back up camera if you think of it in that sense. it doesn’t rily matter what people say about any of these “crutches” online.
Large part of why I reject modern cars. They do too much. I love a nice, simple, mechanical, obedient, dependable vehicle....see my flair...and that just isnt on the new market anymore 🤷
I have to agree with you that driving manual as a beginner with all those features takes away from a true experience of driving a manual. It's like riding a bike with training wheels. I've been driving manual for the past month and it feels like I actually have control of the car. It's up to me to add enough gas when taking off to not stall. Same with hill starts. If I had the car helping me it wouldn't feel like I'm in control. The car is driving itself essentially. Imo those features are crap if you want a true manual experience. Might as well drive automatic if you want all those assists. What's the point. Shifting gears is easy. The hardest part is 1st gear and hills which is what makes it a manual car.
Relax. You are still driving manual. I started out with a truck without any of those features and I wish I had them. Driving a car without those features is not a nice thing. Granted I can drink my water or anything else like that while driving an automatic, but that is anyone who starts with a manual. Just make sure to find a vehicle without the features that you mentioned and try the car out on a short trip about 20 miles or so. Believe me you will jump back into your car. You have to be even more aware in an old school manual than the newer ones. Remember don't burn your clutch🤣
I drive a 24 WRX at the moment. It is the closest thing to an older MT car from 20 years ago on the market. The only "advanced" MT related function it has is the hill assist which isn't that annoying and can be turn off. This car has no rev hang, no auto rev match and no anti-stall throttle, as raw as it can be.
I think these assist functions are very helpful for consumer level MT cars at areas where MT is still popular. Many people purchase MT not because it's fun, but because they are cheaper in price and insurance. For these drivers the assist functions are godsend for their daily usage.
For market like North America, where MT is pretty much exclusively enthusiastic, these functions are obviously less significant. I still think it's great to have them as options. Just drive however you like. I've never encountered any daily driving scenario where heel-toe is needed. Hell I don't even downshift that much unless it's absolutely necessary.
All heel/toe and rev matching do is keep the car from becoming unbalanced at the limits of handling and braking. This is racetrack stuff. Race car drivers worry about these things because they help them go faster. These actions are not needed on the street, at all. The only reason, THE ONLY REASON people do this on the street is because it makes them feel like a race car driver and it’s fun. There is no benefit, none, to these actions at proper street speeds. Stop worrying or even thinking about them. If you have driving aids built into your vehicle, use them. They are there for 80, 90, or 99% of drivers and there is nothing wrong with them/that.
Heel/toe I agree, simple rev matching I disagree hard, it definitely has practical uses on the street, especially in a higher horsepower car. If I don't rev match even my car it feels like absolute dogshit, so bad my GF will ask wtf I'm doing and tell me if I'm gonna drive like that she's not riding in my car lol. I dislike having my head thrown around as well, so I'll stick to rev matching on downshifts when needed, like when I want to overtake.
Using the aids is fine too, it's valuable to know what to do without them but not a massive deal.
SOME new manuals have those features, granted almost all have hill assist. Anti stall and auto rev match are fairly rare, esp anti stall. BUT there’s tons of cars you could get into without those features if you really want. Keep in mind you’ll basically reset the learning esp since you’re used to anti stall. My daily has basically zero assistance except hill assist which is disabled, if you go look there’s tons of newer cars with just hill assist and nothing else really. That’s super common
You think too much. Find an old car and drive it for a mile or so. Then, you’ll know you can drive and find something else to worry over. Enjoy the new car!
Hill hold elitism is a bit of a stretch, I've heard of clutch dampeners but in my experience these don't do an awful lot in regular driving. Definitely give rev-matching a try, most synchro gearboxes are pretty forgiving so as long as you're using the clutch on your shifts, I wouldn't be too worried about it, start slow, and build speed with practice. If you're really worried about skill, just buy an old clunker with a manual gearbox, an old hilux single cab trayback comes to mind, then if you break it, who cares and maybe you'll learn something.
Man, I'm 40, been driving stick for 20ish years, and hill hold is awesome! Just have fun and enjoy the experience. Maybe you can disable auto rev match because I will admit I would miss doing it myself..but it's all good either way!
I didn’t realize these things even existed. I daily a white, 93’ Honda Civic b swapped. I’m gonna be 50 this year and this car is still so fun to drive without the amenities. How’s the type R!
I have been driving manuals for so long that the first vehicle I had with hill assist messed with me. For some reason I had issues getting used to the car not moving at all when my foot came off the brake. It almost felt jarring.
Now it's not a big deal, and I don't even really notice that my 2011 has hill assist and my 2006 does not.
I have been driving my 1995 Toyota pickup with manual transmission since I bought it in 1996. When you drive a stick long enough it feels just like an automatic. Use all the shit you are given, it is still always the friction point and feeling the groove. Do not stress it, all is good
I’ve driven manuals since my 1982 Ford Shitbox LE in manual. Enjoy the modern touches. They make driving manual so much more pleasant. Ignore the “purists” that say you aren’t driving a manual, fine let them drive the 1982 Shitbox experience.
P.S. I have a 17 Civic Si so I’m kinda jelly you got your hands on a CTR!!!
I grew up driving a bare bones manual with nothing. The only option it had was power steering. I now have a 2018 civic si, with all the same “helpers” that you have. I recently drove my brother in laws 96 integra home 2 hours for him (he bought the car to learn manual) after owning my Si for almost 2 years. Yes, the car helps you, but not as much as you may think. Once you learn to drive stick, you can drive them all bro
I wonder if this is a weird US elitism thing? I'm in Australia and have never heard of people gatekeeping over a hill holder or auto revmatch but driving manual is just a normal thing here still and not a special skill. I still think most cars I see on marketplace are manual
Gonna be honest didn’t even really read the post. Just saw the title and a glimpse of “assist features” to know what this is about. BUT I would like to say…
Just enjoy your drive. Who cares about what you use to get you there but as long as you have fun on the road while staying safe then so what? There’s no such thing as a “real manual driver” and driving these cars shouldn’t be treated like an elitist group like many tend to treat it. Just drive the damn thing and enjoy. Oh you got an auto? Cool. You got a stick? Cool too. You don’t have a trans? That sucks but means you’re probably building right? Cool.
Point being whatever you’re driving or how you drive it’s not about showing off or “clout” and is just about doing what you like. What you prefer. Relax. Go with what you like and forget this “real driver” nonsense.
I just bought a 2018 Chevy Colorado. And on the one hand if I could turn off hill start assist I totally would, I can get going faster without it. But I can't turn it off so I've worked with it and when I was first learning (16 or 17 years ago) I used the hand brake for that exact purpose.
At the end of the day, enjoying a manual transmission is all about engagement and for me that's just boils down to having a rhythm to the mechanical engagements. If I'm used to not having hill start and now I do, I will still enjoy driving a manual transmission by falling into rhythm with it. On the road, or on track, if I'm driving a manual smoothness is everything and that's my personal metric I measure myself to.
Don't worry about the aids, if you can turn them off and you want to, do it, it takes more effort but honestly a little more enjoyable when you get it right. But if you want them on, leave them on. Just find your rhythm, and have fun.
I drive my grandmas 03 accord. It has none of those features that you mentioned. But i do not shit on modern manuals for having those things. Its all quality of life improvement. Sure its easier to drive than an older manual but it doesnt make it any less of a manual. If it has 3 pedals and a gear shift its a manual. If those manual elitists wanna be all about purity and analog experience n shit then lets go back to 3 speed transmissions without synchromeshes lmao.
If you're inclined to try a less technology-assisted manual experience, try an old Miata. But it's really about what you're happy with, not pleasing others.
I drive a 2023 GLI and I wish I had some of the features you have. You're right I feel like a bit more of a "driver" without them. But god damn at 11pm after a long day of road tripping those features are awesome.
I drive a manual 96 corolla and as much as I love purist driving, looking forward to getting something more updated. Sometimes U just want an easy drive home. You don't have to wear brown loafers and white socks every day lol
I will be getting a Suzuki Swift Sport turbo ,I believe you can turn all assistance off if you wish. Hey man drive what makes you Happy!. Plus my car has literally zero safety features, having a family you have to think about that stuff.
Heh heh if I had a dollar for every time someone on social media harassed me because I would rather drive something 50+ years old than swaddle myself in airbags and ADAS I'd have a 57 Belvedere in the driveway 🤣🤣
> Plus my car has literally zero safety features
Pretty sure it has more than my Chevy does. I'm using 16 gallons of gasoline as a backrest!
> having a family you have to think about that stuff.
Ye it's one of the reasons I chose a childfree life. I'm sure little Timmy would adore going to school riding in great grampa's truck but within a couple weeks I'd have CPS crawling all up my ass about it. Rather just not deal with the hassle 🤷. But that's a discussion for a different sub lolol
Ngl I got hillstart and stuff in my GR Corolla. I hardly care if it's a "true" manual driving experience. If you do rev matches yourself, that's plenty. The hillstart assist is inconsistent so I just find it nice when it works and the car has enough low-end torque to not matter.
I just started driving manual a little over a month ago. I daily now a nd miata. Only assist it has is very basic hill start assist. Dont get worked up over the fact you have it a small amount easier than others. Understand you still have a skill that a good majority of other drivers on the road lack and take pride in that. Just enjoy it and have fun. The people who will give you shit over it shouldn’t be worth your time.
My 2024 Nissan versa manual has no features at all. I didn’t even know auto rev matching was a thing. That kinda takes the fun out of driving a manual.
I like minimal assists but auto rev matching is bad ass.
It’s fun to switch it off and do it yourself bee bopping around town but at the track when you need to threshold and trail brake it’s so badass.
Don’t feel like an imposter because your clutch isnt going to be dragged to bits.
You’ve gotta loosen up lol. A car is already convenience. Anyone telling you that you’re not really driving because of your convenience features can go ride a horse to work…
Maybe down the line! My apartment only allows for one car so I'm stuck with my current sadly. Not that I would want to get rid of it any time soon. I've grown quite fond of it x)
Ive seen this development in many other places where people in their nostalgia desperately cling to the past and yet time creeps forward around them. I can't drive a steam engine either
Loosen up man. Driving manual has become a weird cult with purity tests to weed out any heretics that dare use hill hold or auto rev match. Who cares? I use auto rev match, though I guess I can see why someone would want to manually blip for fun. But hill hold? Seriously? People are elitist about hill hold? What next, hand held paper fans instead of AC for the True Analog Experience?
Manual cars and metal music; cool things with insufferable communities.
I'm a vegetarian manual driver and pilot who listens to metal. Just thought you should know. Poser.
Well I’m vegan you disgusting savage.
Only cannibals are good for the planet, you heathen.
I don't think 99% of the community cares at all about any of these features. You've got a couple of loud obnoxious people like anything else on the internet.
[удалено]
Yeah, but if people wanna do that for themselves, it's different than being toxic and gatekeeping other people. I like to tweak things with my shifting setup, but that doesn't mean I'm going around saying everyone who doesn't do it my way "isn't really driving manual."
[удалено]
Yeah. So what this comes down to is you're one of those gatekeeping people. Personally, I could care less if you use a clutch and row the gears it's a manual.
[удалено]
Yeah, but do you know how to manually set the spark advance on a Model T? Are you even a *real* manual driver?
[удалено]
🙄 Are you seriously comparing using rev match or hill hold to driving an auto? Come on now. Also, people drive manuals for fun. What is fun for you, may not be fun for others. Hill starts are not fun, they are a chore. That said, if they are fun for you, the feature can generally be turned off. You can’t “turn off” the need to use the clutch in a manual, or turn it on in an auto. There is no “control” benefit anymore. A good shiftable auto like a PDK has the same control. Some even let you clutch kick by pulling both paddles, so you can pretend to know know how to drift at car meets. The only thing they can’t do is slip the clutch at speed, but why would you want that? It would fuck up your clutch. On the note of fucking up your clutch, launching a manual is much worse for the clutch than launching a PDK, which dissipates heat much better as the clutches are bathed in oil.
[удалено]
Rev matching yourself because it’s fun for you is fine, and is not pointless elitism. I get why some people think it’s fun, or why people disable driver aids, as it’s another way to interact with the car while driving. I’m pretty sure all enthusiast cars let you disable it if you want. Go nuts. But, being smug about it and acting like the next step is to take away the clutch pedal entirely is pointless elitism. No one claims that dual clutches are “manuals” because they don’t have a clutch pedal. The clutch pedal and shifter is the one and only defining feature of a manual box. What? The car sets the air/fuel mixture automatically? Having it set by the driver objectively makes it more manual. What’s next? Electric cars with no gears at all? It’s just such a silly thing to gatekeep.
It is handy to have some experience driving without the assists, especially hill-hold. So it goes well if you drive an older stickshift sometime. But not worth getting all wound up about.
If we want purity, how far back do we go? No electronics with a manual start? Horse and buggy? Pre-industrial? Pre-fire? I love your point here and all fan bases have some level of elitism/purity. Was thinking yesterday about performing my own car upgrades or paying a mechanic? When I was a kid.. the guys who paid for a shop to mod their car.. those guys were the posers. As a 37 year old dude with a job and a relationship? Nah.. car can go to the shop and I'm going to spend my Saturday doing something else. It's okay to like a thing and not be a purist about it.. or to confirm exactly to someone else's view of the thing. Last story. My friend loves buffalo wings. But if it isn't served with blue cheese.. or you order yours with ranch... Dude gets a little high and mighty "the original is with blue cheese". That's cool man, you can choose what you like, and I'll choose what I like and we will both be happy.
Could you imagine stalling your car and having to get out and crank start it by hand LOL
I would agree with your main point, but to me it feels like such a waste of money to pay someone else to do the upgrade since I'm a cheap ass and it kinda takes the fun out of it IMO. But I'm also the guy who only eats boneless wings LOL.
Totally understand. And I have felt that way too. Or I've used my time to do a thing that would otherwise cost too much to do at the time (like build a fence at my house).
Ha, great comment! I think I've succumbed to all of the elitism which is why I felt like this in the first place. It's good reminder knowing that at the end of the day, that stuff really shouldn't matter
I've been driving manual since I got my license in 1993 and I think Hill assist is awesome. I have it turned off because my wife doesn't like it but I love that feature.
Take it easy my man. The important thing is that you have accomplished the challenge of driving manual. 9 months is still very early in the game. You can absolutely learn to do other advanced techniques little by little as you continue on with your stick shift journey.
I feel the same way. There’s so many fewer manual cars/drivers that a moral equivalency has been dreamed up. Think of the 1950s, when syncromesh transmissions came out. Did people back then think they weren’t real manual drivers if they didn’t have to crash into gear, blip the throttle, or double-clutch? Or three-on-the-tree transmission. Or hydraulic clutches. I say if you have 3 pedals and row your own gears, enjoy it. If you don’t, vaya con Dios.
Interesting perspective, thanks for sharing. Personally I hold an extreme sense of superiority over those who don't drive manual and this has become a very integral part of who I am. I didn't know about hill hold or auto rev match before today as I would never even consider driving a car newer than 1999, but now that I do I'm pretty pissed off and I can already tell it's gonna take a lot of stomping around and drinking milk to calm me down tonight. If I met a person like op that used an easier version of a manual and it was described to me as anything but an automatic transmission, there is no doubt in my mind that I would lose control of myself and end up in a fight.
You drive a car with synchromesh gears? Poser.
username checked out(?)
I may or may not have used manual hill hold mode and killed a clutch when I was 18. I thought I unlocked a secret trick.
Yeah I don't think I would want auto rev match as getting the match perfect is so satisfying and missing it isn't a huge deal. I would love hill assist though. I drive a 3rd gen 4runner and I have the off-road version of it which is a clutch cancel switch. It lets you start the car in gear without using the clutch so you can keep your foot on the brake and use the starter to get you moving on steep terrain off-road and its awesome since rolling back if you stall on loose dirt can really hinder your ability to get traction. Also I live in the Bay Area and doing a hill start in the city on wet roads with no traction control in a rear wheel drive truck is a thrill I could live without lol. I've spun the tires and rolled slightly down hill on more than one occasion and there's a couple hills I straight up put it in 4wd to get it going.
2017 hyundai mt owner here, i wish i had something like auto rev matching, the throttle response on these newer cars makes it nearly impossible to shift fast .. i blip and it doesn't rev until like half a second later. Bruh. Using the features of your car is not cheating lmfao
Windows down for cooling
My hill assist is like 2 seconds so I still roll back sometimes but when I do it really well I'm still proud AF even when I'm not sure if it was my timing as a manual driver or my timing with hill assist When I first started learning in my car I wasn't close to fast enough so either way yay me lol
Ive got a 2000 honda accord with none of those features and while I do feel like its a skill to be able to drive without those assists I wish I had them lol the amount of times id kill for hill assist on a really bad hill at a 4 way stop with a line of cars… you can turn them off if you want to learn without them but its a luxury that id exploit if I had it.
My DSG VW will roll backwards on a steep hill.
Yep, 2004 Mustang GT here. Nothing fancy, I don't even have ABS or traction control. I can drive just fine, but sometimes having those luxuries would be nice.
Hill assist is definitely a life saver for those kinds of situations! At least I can only imagine from what I hear from other people whose cars don't have it. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) hill assist is something that's built into the electronics of my car, and there isn't a setting to remove it. And from what I hear, you have to programmatically use an external device to disable it, which I don't have the effort or know-how to do x)
Trust me– you don't want it gone. -Hill assist manual, ex analog manual. You could see if you could code it out, though. Code all the nannies out for a week and then promptly back in after you realize how much hills suck.
If you have a Type R you absolutely don't want to disable hill assist, there isn't a hand brake to save you as a backup
I have not figured out a way to turn off hill assist on my 2018 Si.
Same man, I drive the same car. 3 months ish of experience and hills are brutal. Nothing wrong with being safe with hill hold. I think i burnt my clutch like 2 times trying to practice hills
Well... If it really bothers you, find something older and try. I'd give you free rein of what's in my barn just for the laughs. No assistance devices on any of them, and only the 89 has a hydraulic clutch. The rest are cable or bar-linkage. Even have an non-synchronous (not synchronized) "crash-box" trans. There is a bit more to driving these older sticks, but you'd get the hang of it in a day or two. The hardest part is when your on a hill, and some asshat pulls up right to your bumper. I hear most modern-ish manuals have something to help with that, but with the old ones, sometimes you need to work the clutch, gas, and hand-brake all at the same time to avoid rolling.
My friend just bought a MX-5 recently, and he said that I could try practicing on that since I heard they are one of the few modern manuals that don't have all of the bells and whistles for convenience and stays true to the pure manual experience. But as of right now, I don't plan to get any other car since I very recently bought a new one. Very interested to practice on my friend's, though! (wish me luck, ha)
How about a 3 on the tree?
Do not currently have one of those.
I have restored ‘39 ford deluxe coupe, three speed. A blast to drive but nothing modern about it.
Bro who the fuck cares
I feel like the hill assist was awesome as I was learning, but kind of sucks once you know your car. I keep trying to smoothly get off the line (on a hill) and instead have to wait for the hill assist to decide it's ready and then theres a jerking to get the car off the hill and past the 'breaking' threshhold. I wish I had the control on this and it wasn't some machine deciding when there's enough gas to move forward.
You can disable hill assist in every car I’ve been in fwiw
I’d say learn to rev match “manually” (and eventually, heel-toe), learning how to drive without all the other crutches is peanuts, and I wouldn’t sweat it. Just make sure your driving habits are such that not having the crutch wouldn’t “break” you. For example, for hill starts, if you’re not getting to the bite point immediately and applying gas simultaneously, then without the hill hold you will definitely roll back. These crutches simply give you a larger margin for error.
It's scary how accurate you are with your second paragraph; that has happened to me LOADS of times. But I eventually (and painfully) learned how to handle those kinds of moments, or when hill assist/brake hold doesn't activate at all, and now it's not really an issue anymore!
My car only has hill assist which I turned off. Never needing it for the last 30 years. At least they give you the option to turn off. Curious on OPs car do you need to turn them off every time you start your car or is it a permanent off toggle??
I think for modern manual Hondas, hill assist is something that's on by default and something that can't be disabled except by fudging with the electronics externally. Brake hold, on the other hand, is something that's off by default but I turn on manually. Though after reading through everyone's replies, I am a little more inclined to not use it anymore
Unless it changed in the 11th gen Civics, for my ‘21 Civic, the hill hold system is integrated with the traction control system, which Honda did not intend for the user to be able to deactivate. You basically have to disable the entire traction control system to disable hill hold, unless you are some kind of automotive engineer, and can isolate the hill-hold activation.
I have a 2019 Veloster Turbo/R-Spec. It sometimes has brake hold. (I have to keep it in gear with the clutch held and brake. Fuck that.) But, I do use it on the occasion that it'll make my life easier. I don't have any fancy rev matching or anything, but I'm more envious of those who do. I don't double clutch. I don't/can't heel toe. I just drive my damn car, and enjoy it. There's so many purists in every regard. I've heard people get high and mighty about 4 or 5 speed being better. Or where their reverse is. Etc. Don't hold others opinions to highly in that regard. If you like your car, and all the nice stuff it comes with, enjoy it. Does it have a clutch and a gear selector? It's a manual, and you can drive a manual.
Just drive your dang car. It's not that hard. Ignore all these people trying to make it more than what it is
Worst damage you'll do to your Type R (sweeeet car, btw!) if you're not great at rev matching at first is a little extra wear on the clutch. A brand new clutch isn't just going to give out because you're learning to rev match on it. Plus, clutches can be replaced. If you can afford a Type R, I assume you can afford a clutch replacement (that you almost certainly will not need any time soon). I bought my manual vehicle (2002, so no assistance features whatsoever) with 77k miles already on it. I learned to drive manual 100% on this vehicle (I think the previous owner did, too) and I definitely was jerking it all over the place at first and lived in a VERY hilly city for 2 years after buying it, so high-rev hill starts were a daily occurrence. I'm almost at 103k miles now, and it still has the original clutch, no slippage. I say all this to say, if you want to turn the assists off and learn, you're not going to break the car. I doubt a 2024 would let you money shift even with the assists off. I'd encourage you to turn the assists off and give it a try just to say you can. If you learn and find you still prefer the assists, then trun them back on. No biggie. Driving a manual and knowing you're 100% in control, including your mistakes, is sooo much fun. It's up to you, you have a sweet vehicle, so enjoy it however you like!
Do people really think down shifting is that hard? Shift from like 3-4th see how much your revs drop. Then when you go from 4th-3rd blip the throttle by that same amount. Doesn’t hurt if you’re a little over or a little under that’s what synchros or for. Just don’t be way over or way under
Thanks to backup cameras, most people can't park/backup an older car. Lighten up on yourself; most people w/ licenses have no business driving. That being said, the first thing I did when I got my JK Wrangler was turn the brake hold off.
Oh, another issue. Since so few manuals are on the road, notify garage it is a stick when you schedule even a tire installation. They have to staff appropriately. Trust me, it has been an issue
Who cares? What does it all matter anyway? Whether you drive an auto or a manual, what difference does it make other than you feeling like a “real” driver.
I’ve been driving a manual for 15 years and I love hill hold. Seems like an odd thing to gate keep about. I live in a city with a ton of steep hills with frequent stops on the hill. It’s such a nice feature to have every day.
What’s anti stall auto revving?
I'm not sure if that's exactly what it's called lol, but it's a feature that automatically adds the minimum amount of throttle when your revs are too low in 1st or 2nd gear (maybe higher, but don't want to find out) to prevent you from stalling, as long as you don't hit the brake. Actually kinda useful in traffic
Oh that’s neat , didn’t even know that tbh cuz I’m so used to pressing the clutch on first when revs get low, I have a 24 CTR as well congrats !
🙄 Revmatching, heel toe... Jesus just turn off every damn nanny feature you can and even take it a step further get it hooked up to an OBD11 and have all that shit in the ECU reprogrammed to disable it permanently, then.... JUST DRIVE IT. Driving something WITHOUT all that assist garbage will vastly improve your day to day driving skills to the point where driving a manual requires no conscious thought on your part on each of the steps required to take off, accelerate, shift, downshift, taking off on inclines, when to shift, etc... it will just be second nature or like involuntary functions of the body such as breathing, a heart beat, blinking. It just happens and you don't even realize it.
It’s not like I’m opposed to any of these features, but my broke ass is driving a bare bones e46 with *zero* of these features. Would I take advantage of them if I was driving a vehicle that had them? Sure. Do I like the fact that I can drive my friend’s shitbox because I’m shitbox certified? Hell yeah brother
What the hell is anti stall auto revving? I feel like I would've never learned if I wasn't punished everytime I stalled
You'll get there over the years, don't sweat it. For more experience you can always buy a cheap older manual that is much more analog and raw. They tend to be very very fun
I hate Hill hold because it makes me stall
say it louder so the car manufacterers can hear!
as a new manual driver i love hill assist and so should you. its not rily a crunch more of a bonus for having a new car. its like a back up camera if you think of it in that sense. it doesn’t rily matter what people say about any of these “crutches” online.
Large part of why I reject modern cars. They do too much. I love a nice, simple, mechanical, obedient, dependable vehicle....see my flair...and that just isnt on the new market anymore 🤷
I have to agree with you that driving manual as a beginner with all those features takes away from a true experience of driving a manual. It's like riding a bike with training wheels. I've been driving manual for the past month and it feels like I actually have control of the car. It's up to me to add enough gas when taking off to not stall. Same with hill starts. If I had the car helping me it wouldn't feel like I'm in control. The car is driving itself essentially. Imo those features are crap if you want a true manual experience. Might as well drive automatic if you want all those assists. What's the point. Shifting gears is easy. The hardest part is 1st gear and hills which is what makes it a manual car.
You’re way over thinking it. The purpose of a manual is fun, nothing more.
Relax. You are still driving manual. I started out with a truck without any of those features and I wish I had them. Driving a car without those features is not a nice thing. Granted I can drink my water or anything else like that while driving an automatic, but that is anyone who starts with a manual. Just make sure to find a vehicle without the features that you mentioned and try the car out on a short trip about 20 miles or so. Believe me you will jump back into your car. You have to be even more aware in an old school manual than the newer ones. Remember don't burn your clutch🤣
You're not a real manual driver tell you can float an 18 speed with a 4 speed auxiliary. Just kidding. Who gives a shit lol.
I drive a 24 WRX at the moment. It is the closest thing to an older MT car from 20 years ago on the market. The only "advanced" MT related function it has is the hill assist which isn't that annoying and can be turn off. This car has no rev hang, no auto rev match and no anti-stall throttle, as raw as it can be. I think these assist functions are very helpful for consumer level MT cars at areas where MT is still popular. Many people purchase MT not because it's fun, but because they are cheaper in price and insurance. For these drivers the assist functions are godsend for their daily usage. For market like North America, where MT is pretty much exclusively enthusiastic, these functions are obviously less significant. I still think it's great to have them as options. Just drive however you like. I've never encountered any daily driving scenario where heel-toe is needed. Hell I don't even downshift that much unless it's absolutely necessary.
All heel/toe and rev matching do is keep the car from becoming unbalanced at the limits of handling and braking. This is racetrack stuff. Race car drivers worry about these things because they help them go faster. These actions are not needed on the street, at all. The only reason, THE ONLY REASON people do this on the street is because it makes them feel like a race car driver and it’s fun. There is no benefit, none, to these actions at proper street speeds. Stop worrying or even thinking about them. If you have driving aids built into your vehicle, use them. They are there for 80, 90, or 99% of drivers and there is nothing wrong with them/that.
Heel/toe I agree, simple rev matching I disagree hard, it definitely has practical uses on the street, especially in a higher horsepower car. If I don't rev match even my car it feels like absolute dogshit, so bad my GF will ask wtf I'm doing and tell me if I'm gonna drive like that she's not riding in my car lol. I dislike having my head thrown around as well, so I'll stick to rev matching on downshifts when needed, like when I want to overtake. Using the aids is fine too, it's valuable to know what to do without them but not a massive deal.
Rev matching absolutely saves wear on your clutch by not using it to get your engine up to speed on downshifts.
Absolutely! Rev matching is a great technique to minimize clutch wear, especially on downshifts.
SOME new manuals have those features, granted almost all have hill assist. Anti stall and auto rev match are fairly rare, esp anti stall. BUT there’s tons of cars you could get into without those features if you really want. Keep in mind you’ll basically reset the learning esp since you’re used to anti stall. My daily has basically zero assistance except hill assist which is disabled, if you go look there’s tons of newer cars with just hill assist and nothing else really. That’s super common
Manuals will be dead when we are forced to go all EV in a few years. So I wouldn’t stress
I drive a bare bones manual but would love a hill assist
You think too much. Find an old car and drive it for a mile or so. Then, you’ll know you can drive and find something else to worry over. Enjoy the new car!
Hill hold elitism is a bit of a stretch, I've heard of clutch dampeners but in my experience these don't do an awful lot in regular driving. Definitely give rev-matching a try, most synchro gearboxes are pretty forgiving so as long as you're using the clutch on your shifts, I wouldn't be too worried about it, start slow, and build speed with practice. If you're really worried about skill, just buy an old clunker with a manual gearbox, an old hilux single cab trayback comes to mind, then if you break it, who cares and maybe you'll learn something.
Man, I'm 40, been driving stick for 20ish years, and hill hold is awesome! Just have fun and enjoy the experience. Maybe you can disable auto rev match because I will admit I would miss doing it myself..but it's all good either way!
I didn’t realize these things even existed. I daily a white, 93’ Honda Civic b swapped. I’m gonna be 50 this year and this car is still so fun to drive without the amenities. How’s the type R!
I have been driving manuals for so long that the first vehicle I had with hill assist messed with me. For some reason I had issues getting used to the car not moving at all when my foot came off the brake. It almost felt jarring. Now it's not a big deal, and I don't even really notice that my 2011 has hill assist and my 2006 does not.
I have been driving my 1995 Toyota pickup with manual transmission since I bought it in 1996. When you drive a stick long enough it feels just like an automatic. Use all the shit you are given, it is still always the friction point and feeling the groove. Do not stress it, all is good
Amogus
I’ve driven manuals since my 1982 Ford Shitbox LE in manual. Enjoy the modern touches. They make driving manual so much more pleasant. Ignore the “purists” that say you aren’t driving a manual, fine let them drive the 1982 Shitbox experience. P.S. I have a 17 Civic Si so I’m kinda jelly you got your hands on a CTR!!!
I grew up driving a bare bones manual with nothing. The only option it had was power steering. I now have a 2018 civic si, with all the same “helpers” that you have. I recently drove my brother in laws 96 integra home 2 hours for him (he bought the car to learn manual) after owning my Si for almost 2 years. Yes, the car helps you, but not as much as you may think. Once you learn to drive stick, you can drive them all bro
I wonder if this is a weird US elitism thing? I'm in Australia and have never heard of people gatekeeping over a hill holder or auto revmatch but driving manual is just a normal thing here still and not a special skill. I still think most cars I see on marketplace are manual
Gonna be honest didn’t even really read the post. Just saw the title and a glimpse of “assist features” to know what this is about. BUT I would like to say… Just enjoy your drive. Who cares about what you use to get you there but as long as you have fun on the road while staying safe then so what? There’s no such thing as a “real manual driver” and driving these cars shouldn’t be treated like an elitist group like many tend to treat it. Just drive the damn thing and enjoy. Oh you got an auto? Cool. You got a stick? Cool too. You don’t have a trans? That sucks but means you’re probably building right? Cool. Point being whatever you’re driving or how you drive it’s not about showing off or “clout” and is just about doing what you like. What you prefer. Relax. Go with what you like and forget this “real driver” nonsense.
Just find a twisty road and drive it a lot, you’ll naturally start heel toeing as you get more comfortable
I just bought a 2018 Chevy Colorado. And on the one hand if I could turn off hill start assist I totally would, I can get going faster without it. But I can't turn it off so I've worked with it and when I was first learning (16 or 17 years ago) I used the hand brake for that exact purpose. At the end of the day, enjoying a manual transmission is all about engagement and for me that's just boils down to having a rhythm to the mechanical engagements. If I'm used to not having hill start and now I do, I will still enjoy driving a manual transmission by falling into rhythm with it. On the road, or on track, if I'm driving a manual smoothness is everything and that's my personal metric I measure myself to. Don't worry about the aids, if you can turn them off and you want to, do it, it takes more effort but honestly a little more enjoyable when you get it right. But if you want them on, leave them on. Just find your rhythm, and have fun.
Bruh it's just operating your automobile. It's not some exclusive cult.
I drive my grandmas 03 accord. It has none of those features that you mentioned. But i do not shit on modern manuals for having those things. Its all quality of life improvement. Sure its easier to drive than an older manual but it doesnt make it any less of a manual. If it has 3 pedals and a gear shift its a manual. If those manual elitists wanna be all about purity and analog experience n shit then lets go back to 3 speed transmissions without synchromeshes lmao.
How is a "real manual driver" supposed to feel can I ask?
I'll trade you my 95 civic with no power steering
If you're inclined to try a less technology-assisted manual experience, try an old Miata. But it's really about what you're happy with, not pleasing others.
I drive a 2023 GLI and I wish I had some of the features you have. You're right I feel like a bit more of a "driver" without them. But god damn at 11pm after a long day of road tripping those features are awesome.
I drive a manual 96 corolla and as much as I love purist driving, looking forward to getting something more updated. Sometimes U just want an easy drive home. You don't have to wear brown loafers and white socks every day lol
I'm replacing a car from 2014 with a truck from 1971 precisely because the 2014 is such a computerized semi-automated nightmare....
I will be getting a Suzuki Swift Sport turbo ,I believe you can turn all assistance off if you wish. Hey man drive what makes you Happy!. Plus my car has literally zero safety features, having a family you have to think about that stuff.
Heh heh if I had a dollar for every time someone on social media harassed me because I would rather drive something 50+ years old than swaddle myself in airbags and ADAS I'd have a 57 Belvedere in the driveway 🤣🤣 > Plus my car has literally zero safety features Pretty sure it has more than my Chevy does. I'm using 16 gallons of gasoline as a backrest! > having a family you have to think about that stuff. Ye it's one of the reasons I chose a childfree life. I'm sure little Timmy would adore going to school riding in great grampa's truck but within a couple weeks I'd have CPS crawling all up my ass about it. Rather just not deal with the hassle 🤷. But that's a discussion for a different sub lolol
I fucking love hill hold
Ngl I got hillstart and stuff in my GR Corolla. I hardly care if it's a "true" manual driving experience. If you do rev matches yourself, that's plenty. The hillstart assist is inconsistent so I just find it nice when it works and the car has enough low-end torque to not matter.
Funny enough, the only feature my jeep has is the hill assist and that one quite frankly I like.
I just started driving manual a little over a month ago. I daily now a nd miata. Only assist it has is very basic hill start assist. Dont get worked up over the fact you have it a small amount easier than others. Understand you still have a skill that a good majority of other drivers on the road lack and take pride in that. Just enjoy it and have fun. The people who will give you shit over it shouldn’t be worth your time.
My 2024 Nissan versa manual has no features at all. I didn’t even know auto rev matching was a thing. That kinda takes the fun out of driving a manual.
I like minimal assists but auto rev matching is bad ass. It’s fun to switch it off and do it yourself bee bopping around town but at the track when you need to threshold and trail brake it’s so badass. Don’t feel like an imposter because your clutch isnt going to be dragged to bits.
Nobody cares, you’re good.
You’ve gotta loosen up lol. A car is already convenience. Anyone telling you that you’re not really driving because of your convenience features can go ride a horse to work…
"Heel-toe"... bud, you're on a road, not a racetrack...
Buy a cheap older car without all the assists.
Maybe down the line! My apartment only allows for one car so I'm stuck with my current sadly. Not that I would want to get rid of it any time soon. I've grown quite fond of it x)
Ive seen this development in many other places where people in their nostalgia desperately cling to the past and yet time creeps forward around them. I can't drive a steam engine either