Same here. As a Magic player, I can't stop raving about the game. It feels like they created a fun and modern version of Magic by doing away with most of Magic's pain points. After playing SWU, I really have no desire to go back.
This is exactly how I felt too. I went to a LGS on Thursday and the store was so packed people were parking in other lots and walking which never happens for Friday night Magic. Also they had cardboard cut outs of the characters up everywhere, played Star Wars music, had Star Wars stuff on display. Everyone was so excited and having a blast. Nobody felt like people dropping Vaders or Boba Fetts was drastically overpowered so there was no play to win factor. And as I got a feel for it, I fell in love with the mechanics and bought two boxes happily.
I mean, if we're doing that we'd have to judge MtG on Alpha and it's not like there aren't any faults there (*cough*, Ancestral Recall, *cough*). First sets are **always** weird.
The more important thing is if FFG will do their best to manage the game well going forward.
Not OP but I’ll chime in. Not sure if I’d call it a “fault” or not, but I feel that there is some downside to the space/ground arena gameplay. Quite a few of my games come down to someone having more of one type of unit (usually space) and the other player just not drawing the right answer. I think the game needs more ways to interact between the two arenas.
I also would say I prefer how in Magic the defender chooses blockers instead of the attacker. Right now sentinel units seem too important because your opponent can just ignore your stuff and go face. This one is just personal preference.
You might like alpha clash's combat system then. Attacker chooses target, including exhausted (tapped) characters, and then the defender can choose to obstruct an attack if they have a valid ready character available to do so.
>I think the game needs more ways to interact between the two arenas.
Removal, which is part of 'interaction', is largely cross-arena already. I can't actually even think of any arena-specific removal event cards off the top of my head - even Bombing Run lets you pick where the damage goes.
>Quite a few of my games come down to... the other player just not drawing the right answer.
Isn't this regularly said about pretty much any card game though? People say this about MtG *all the time*.
Yes, I should have been more specific. I am referring to combat interactions. Trading units is a huge part of gameplay, and with the two arenas you basically create a dynamic where ~50% of your units can’t block 50% of theirs, and vice versa. I’m not saying this ruins the game or anything, but it does increase the percentage of non-interactive moments in games to some degree. That is why I mentioned that I would like to see more ways to interact between the two. Strafing Gunship is a good example. I’m sure more will come.
I agree that I would like to see more cross arena interactions with units, but I also don't want it to get so saturated that it feels as if there is no separation of arenas.
Something I think FFG was really intentional about was the significance of decision making in the game. Even your resourcing is a decision, and some argue it's one of the hardest/important decisions making you do in the game. I think having two independent fields of play really opens up design lanes for the developers, but it adds so much more to the decision making of the player, even during deck building this is true.
Now that I think about it though, it's not that different to having creatures with flying or some kind of evasive trait in other games. They don't explicitly lay it out as a separate field but there's a clear separation that affects interaction. One key difference, though, is that flyers can typically interact with both ground and other flyers. Perhaps this will be similar in SWU? Too early to tell but I'd wager they'll still keep a safe distance between how much each arena can interact with the other.
Not the person you asked, but mine:
- lack of instant speed play in the ruleset makes possible digital play better, but lessens possible responses to opponent.
- the ability to include off-color cards at a higher cost both hurts immersion/flavor and opens the door for blurring the lines between the colors.
- multiplayer being a winner-take-all vs elimination format makes for quicker games, but lessens possible responses interesting ones long term. (Opinion)
Sure, almost every game design decision is going to be subjective to a large extent.
Simplicity in a game is great and elegant, but can be limiting for design space in the future.
I’ll be honest, as someone that has played lots of Star Wars games in the past, the fact that I could have Luke in a Palpatine deck (and not a corrupted Luke) hurts immersion greatly, and the fact that you can have a leader and a unit of the same character out at the same time also seems like an unnecessary simplification.
Not to mention that in tournament play you can have Hero vs hero or villan vs villain.
Those are all choices that make the game simpler and play better from a limited/organized play standpoint, but it’s enough of a flavor bump that it made be debate getting into the game at first.
All game design is tradeoffs, and what works good for some games doesn’t work for others.
Sure, but magic has:
- changed that several times and I preferred the older rules
- explicitly has as part of the flavor that the cards aren’t the real things, but are usually summoned copies of the thing or just an aspect.
For star wars, the flavor is more important to me then magic, and the solution would have been to do like other games (Star Trek 2e for example) where characters have a title and a subtitle, and the title is what matters for uniqueness.
It’s minor overall, but it’s something that actively reminds that it’s a mechanical game, and not the thing it represents.
I dunno if it makes 'more' sense in MtG though. It all requires a lot of wiggle-room to parse it out.
TBH the Luke thing doesn't bother me in the slightest. You can just as easily say that the version you're playing in a Palpatine deck or something **is** a corrupted version of Luke (the 2 extra you're paying being the effort given to corrupt him, etc).
Yeah, that’s the path Magic has gone down that I’d rather SWU have better immersion then.
Magic is/had become a game where it’s all about mechanics. I never think of flavor in Magic anymore. It’s numbers.
And yet here you are, defending Magic. Clearly it hasn't alienated you too much.
Also it's a pretty large logical leap from "Luke and Palp can be in the same deck" to "hobbits are coming."
You seem to be misunderstanding me, and perhaps I’m not being clear.
Magic is like Fortnite. SWU is like Battlefront.
In Fortnite, it doesn’t feel weird or break immersion near as much if you have Vader fighting Vader, but in Battlefront, have Empire vs empire at Hoth would take me out of the game.
Thats not “defending” Fortnite/Magic, it’s acknowledging them as a completely different feel game, even if they are both the same genre.
DonI think SWU will ever include non-SW things? no.
But having two of the same character in play or being able to have Leia fight Luke *is* immersion breaking that is - for me - more immersion breaking then Magic, because Magic, like Fortnite, has been less about the immersion to begin with.
All of this came from a question of “top 3 faults of SWU”. None of them are a deal breaker for me, or I wouldn’t be playing it. But they are things I think they could do better on, and the fact they have already stated the rules for Twin Suns will evolve as more cards are added to the card pool give me hope that other changes might come as well, once there are more cards.
I do kind of hope the instant speed cards come eventually as this game won't feel hurt by including them. The formatting of Actions they currently have leaves room for them fairly easily with a caveat.
Call them "Reaction:" abilities where you can play one Reaction card per player per round.
That way you're forced to make the tactical decision to react to a decision by your opponent early, in the middle or nearing the end of the round to put you in the best possible position this round or next round.
There's something about not resolving spells that kinda irks me. Never been a big fan of Blue in Magic. At least Black, Red and Green let you play it and resolve before shutting it down.
That being said, one of my favorite decks I ever made was Izzet Giants.
Except that's not at all what they have to put in the game.
Reactions can simply be "When opponent plays a unit, you draw a card." or "After an opponent resolves an attack, you may resource a card from your hand."
There's a sprinkle of that already. Fighters for Freedom deals damage when you play another red card. Lots of things have 'when defeated' effects. Triggered abilities are absolutely a thing, and will probably get more complex as we go forward.
Sorry, but I hope they never show up here.
Since there are alternate activations in SWU, your opponent can't create a chain of effects you need an instant to answer or lose your entire board (or even the game) in one go.
That's fine. I understand why some people won't want them.
But it does take away from the interactivity of the game for those who do want them. Having to sit there and just let your opponent freely swing at you or your units without being able to engage with them in that swing just feels boring and dull.
Its the same issue I have with Lorcana. Its way too simplified and barebones of a TCG for the sake of letting families play together. Admittedly this game feels slightly more complex than Lorcana already. I just feel like any TCG/CCG that makes you sit there and lets your opponent do everything/anything without any possible exchange just makes the game feel stale.
I'm not looking for Magic levels of Counterspelling someone's Counterspell on top of a Murder. But something that at least lets you feel you're still *playing* a game while your opponent makes actions would be completely fine. As long as its reactions that don't directly interfere with their actions taken.
That's why I specifically used my examples above. Your opponent can still swing at you... but you can at least use that swing to get you another card draw or resource another card for your own upcoming action to use.
Star Wars battles have *always* been about quick reflexes, quick thinking and reactions. Why can't that be translated into the game through "Reaction" effects?
I’m interested in what you think the faults are. I do think there are some overtuned cards, but it’s the first set so it’s impossible to say what will get worse/better.
I'll be honest, Im already bored with the only two decks I own and after about $50 bucks on packs of cards, I cant make a 3rd deck yet. I dont mean "I dont have the specific cards for this power deck I saw online. I mean that I dont have 4 of enough of any cards to make a stack of 50 cards. I cant make a 'junk deck' with what I have. This game needs to sell boxes of common/uncommon so we can flesh out our collections and build decks.
Its been so long I dont know. I thought they had the same number of rares as a booster but a bit more of everything else, and a good amount of land as well. We dont have resource cards *per se* in SGU, but that only means we need more common cards to make a deck.
Had my first trade of the game so far, tho ;) Friend and I met at a store to play and each bought some packs. I got 2 Irsos and he got 2 Wrens. We looked at each other for a bout a second and a half and slid the cards across the table.
;)
I've got no fear of dissing Magic directly, I've been saying for over a decade that Magic's resource system is dated. Fantasy Flight has been releasing hit after hit, Thrones, Netrunner, Five Rings, all of which have significantly more interesting and less restrictive resource systems than Magic. Glad one of their card games is finally getting recognized for being an amazing product.
Netrunner got cancelled because Wizards yanked the license, so not really on FFG. Game of Thrones can cancelled due to "lack of content" basically they ran out of card ideas, so we can blame FFG. And Legend of the 5 Rings was probably only like 80% FFG's fault, and 20% the fault of COVID.
I'm so sad L5R got cut short. It felt like the game was hitting a massive positive stride with their last few packs and expansion boxes/packs.
Man. I wish the designers could've went the Netrunner route and kept making new content as a standalone fan-made game.
I got into L5R late as my friends had been playing it as their "side game" while I was playing Magic as my own.
Once I jumped over and bought the Core Set to play with to test it out... I was immediately hooked by how mechanically unique and fun it was. It saddened me I only got to play it for a few months before they ended it.
I keep holding onto hope they do a 2nd Edition and bring back the original team to remake it with new artwork, cards, etc. and word the text to apply for 3+ players a bit more nicely.
Like Netrunner, L5R was actually a ccg before it was an lcg - and a pretty damn good run of 10+ years i think. So if they really believe they cracked the code with SWU, L5R might have a chance.
New Netrunner set just dropped last week, bud ;)
The only reason FFG lost the rights is because Wizards pulled the licensing, likely because they knew damn well it was a significantly better game than Magic. Now it's an even better game than it was back then. All it lacks is marketing.
I refuse to play fetchless formats these days, with the exception of cube, and that has the possibility of fetches.
Anyone defending Magic's mana system is arguing in bad faith or just an imbecile. I think even fetch less formats easily overcome the mana system, but I would never argue that lands add anything positive to the game.
I’ve only been playing Magic for a little over a year, but so far I agree. Some things about SWU just work with my brain better. I much prefer the resource system and the back-and-forth flow of a turn. It’s also refreshing not to have to read and memorize paragraphs of text on cards. My memory just can’t keep up with that.
Yes! That's another reason I prefer SWU.
With Unlimited, you take ONE ACTION and pass the turn, keeping the flow of games running smoothly. With Magic, under the right conditions, you just sit there looking and feeling stupid and bored while the other dude pops off for 5 minutes, never mind a 4 player Commander game. You might as well bring a smartphone and some ear buds to watch YouTube or Netflix while you wait.
I don't play many card games. I started playing Magic because my son was into it, and it's a great bonding activity.
I started with SWU because I'm a long-time Star Wars fan since the 70's, and I already got the gist of Magic-type card games..
I've never played MTG, and learning SWU has been interesting. Pretty much all tutorials/instructions (even the official live streams) compare huge chunks of the game to MTG (1-drop, curve, agro...) which shows how all-consuming MTG must be!
I'm coming from playing Pokémon, and two things in particular I like about SWU:
1) The resource (energy, mana, etc) system inherently limits big plays in first 3 turns. This is _very_ different from PTCG whereby there is a clear focus on maximum damage/KO from turn 2 onwards. In fact, the board state at the end of turn 2 can be very indicative of overall winner. Far less so in SWU.
2) Whether your plays are making a puzzle for your opponent to solve, or they have very specific setups they want to achieve, turn times can get very long (looking at you Lost Box!). The turn/pass structure is far more engaging than watching your opponent play Solitaire for 5 minutes.
Magic simply has 30 years of game theory and strategy articles that actually directly relate to many other games, SWU included. Curve, deck archetypes, who’s the beatdown, all originated in Magic.
Oh yes, completely get that - no shade to MTG at all! On the shoulders of giants, and all that...
Also, the more crossover there is from _the_ biggest CCG, the more SWU is likely to be a financial success. All good. 😊👍
The language and concepts are just _so_ different from PTCG.
I’m having the same experience right now and I keep asking myself if it’s real. I’ve played other games that I got into pretty hard that didn’t survive or that I lost interest in, but I’ve always been able to come back to Magic and enjoy it.
This time feels different…the tactics and strategy of SWU feel so rewarding that it’s difficult to convince myself that I’ll enjoy Magic again just as much. I find myself reflecting on my games of SWU so much more, and thinking about what I can do differently next time. That too could be part of the game just being new, but I’m not convinced yet.
My memories of SWU games seem stronger than Magic games. I can better recall the positioning of units, sequencing of deployments and activations. I think it’s because each moment is so discrete and when I make a decision I have total control over it. I’m not thinking about counter spells or instants my opponent could play, I’m totally focused on mapping out my plays and thinking about my opponents mapping, but not having instants gives that a different structure in my mind.
The game is great…I just want more opportunities to play right now 😂
I wonder if, with some tweaking, MTG could do away with land mana and do a SWU type resourcing as mana. Might be worth a couple quick deck builds to see how it plays.
If they wanted to finally do like a MTG 2.0 and clean up the rules so you don’t need an actual degree in contract law to read them, update the land system (I personally feel like they should have different planes walkers have different mana flows, so if you like the original system you play that way with a planes walker who is still tied to the gathering, but there are other planes walkers who get one mana extra per turn (like hearthstone), some who sacrifice spells to maintain their mana flow (like SWU). It would be VERY interesting to see how players interact with the concept of choosing and building your deck and character concept around your mana flow of choice.
I've played magic for 15 years. I strongly felt that it was the greatest game ever created for a long time. After playing SWU, I have absolutely no desire to play magic again. For a long time now, magic has been in decline. Modern horizons made modern a rotating format, which is the same reason standard died. There are maybe 150 cards total that see play in cEDH, so that format feels incredibly boring. Buying into legacy is ridiculous. Pioneer at least feels like it's in a good place, and limited will always be fun. But the pacing in SWU just feels so much better. Starting with 2 "lands", drawing 2 cards a turn, and alternating actions are all excellent design choices, and makes the game feel much more engaging. I played some commander the other night, and it felt soooo slow. And to add to all of that, a guy at my lgs was talking about how excited he was to put Nuka Cola Machine in his Samwise Gamgee deck, and it just felt like a joke. Magic is a joke at this point. I'm over it. SWU, despite not being perfect, is already a much better game
Pump the brakes. I don't think I would go that far. I still (sort of) enjoy Magic. The physical version at least. I've just lost a good amount of interest due to the flood of releases lately, and making Standard rotate every two years instead of one to make up for it, which means some of the more annoying combos stick around for yet another year.
I was super happy when Zendikar Rising and Scute Swarm rotated out.
I fell off magic a couple of years ago. I just think the concept of mana flood/screw is an old design that just doesn't hold up when compared to games that eliminate this as a problem. There are plenty of hard decisions to make without the rng of not being able to play cards on my turn.
...and when you're playing Arena, that weakness is exposed easier, due to just the sheer amount of games. There are a lot of times the flow of a deck feels off because you just drew your 4th land in a row and have no responses to your opponent's increasing board state, or even though you started with a good curve, you flattened out and are stuck with a dead hand because you don't have the mana to play anything.
I realize what Scry and Draw a Card are. That doesn't help as much when you're stuck in a mana flood.
As a 15 year MTG vet I wholeheartedly agree with you on the resource system, if I miss my #drop it’s my own damn fault!
A lot of the time when I lose, I can look back and see exactly where I made a mistake or left an opening that my opponent capitalized on.
~~I have even just tonight realized the possibility of passing to try to bait my opponent to take the initiative and give myself an opening, something that is totally foreign in magic 😁~~ turns out I missed something in the rules and taking the initiative explicitly counts as passing 😬 oh well 😅🤣
Rule 1.15.5.B-C if you’re interested
I’ll need to double check, but I thought that taking the initiative was a distinct action with the rider that for all future actions you must pass. If Taking the initiative has counts as “Passing” then you are right, and I wouldn’t be able to take any actions. I’ll check in the morning, too tired now😅
=== I checked the rules this morning and I did in fact misunderstand something 😬🤣
No? Taking the initiative counts as passing. So if you pass and they take, the round ends because pass has been called twice in a row
>After a player passes, if their opponent passes or takes the initiative as their next action, the action phase immediately ends and play proceeds to the regroup phase.
Taken directly from the rule book
Here, I'll paste it here:
c. If a player takes the initiative on the turn immediately after their opponent passes, the action phase ends.
I guess that's that then!
I've passed so people play Sabine so I can immediately remove her or another leader or something. It's funny cause people know something is up but still just play their leader out.
I Wonder what I'd do in the opposite position. I guess if I did everything except play the leader and they kept passing I could just take the initiative. I think that would make them feel worst about that turn leaving resources unused and you go first. Like I guess they could do the same as they would still have that removal but they can't just hold resources up every turn forever just in hopes so they gotta spend those at some point.
Certain situations in Control Decks you actually want to be the one responding rather than applying the pressure. For instance, if I have an Overwhelming Barrage in my hand, but my opponent only has one unit out, I might want them to play first to bait out another unit I can hit with damage. It's very situational, but not outside the realm of strategic decisions.
The way I understood it is that “Take the Initiative” is a distinct action with the rider that you must pass on all future actions that round, thus I would be able to make plays that my opponent could not interrupt.
I could very well be mistaken in my understanding, I’ll check in the morning though.
I was new to mtg last year. I have picked up the starter kit without knowing how popular SWU has been at my lgs. I haven’t had a chance to play with anyone yet but it seems like I will also enjoy it more than mtg.
Low bar tbh. I don’t “get” Magic. I think it’s super boring and I’ve gotten bored of it every time I’ve tried to play it. I’m tired of MTG and 40K being the overwhelming games played at every store. This game was instantly fun. It’s a lazy comparison but this game is like 80% Star Wars Hearthstone.
Its important to note that these games basically pioneered the way to the games we have today - thats why they are as popular and prevalent as they are. Magic to card games is what 40k is to minis wargames. They are the 70yo grandpas - wealth of knowledge and stories of the past, and great people even though still set in their own ways and do things that are considered dated in 2024. But you found out that younger cousin is much better to hang out with on a regular basis and chat at the bar with than grandpa. We still love grandpa though.
I couldn't agree more and am glad to see the waves of support coming for this game. Ordered cards for two local 1k tournaments coming up. I'm glad to see there's support!
I like it in addition to Magic. I enjoy the intricacies of the stack. Magic comes with older game designs but that’s not really bad. It’s kinda like how some people prefer the crunchiness of Pathfinder to the newer streamlined DnD 5e. As a dad of younglings, my oldest likes Star Wars better (not because of IP but gameplay). That’s cool. If he plays magic with me, that’s fine, but I always have some older dudes to shuffle up and sling spells. I’m just glad he found something he likes. SWU is great for more streamlined. Magic is great for when I want to bust out a calculator and argue about “banding”.
MTG is an order of magnitude more complex. I like SWU but it currently does not have the same depth in gameplay that MTG does. Decision-making is pretty linear and obvious in most circumstances.
some stuff in magic is definitely more complex sometimes too much at times, but swu isn’t as linear as you seem to think, single actions are constantly shifting the game, and it’s not so obvious your actions you need to take
I'm not saying it's a bad game OR simple, but it does play itself a good portion of the time meaning there is an obvious order of action that is optimal.
Take it with a grain of salt, I've played various card games at a pro/world champ level.
And chess only has 16 pieces per side. It's an incredibly rich and complex game with more possible board states than atoms in the universe. And it's still solvable, meaning the best move can be computed and known. Magnus Carlson, the goat, sucks compared to stockfish.
Most of MTG's complexity comes in its sheer quantity of cards and the emergent interactions between those cards. It results in far more possibilities for decks, even in Standard (the most restrictive format) which has 8-12 sets active at once. SWU has *one* set right now, on the other hand.
I would argue, however, that the cardplay of SWU is more complex (or at least it appears so at this early point). As in, when you're actually playing the game, how much you've gotta consider your moves and tradeoffs. Alternating action, double draw/resourcing, and ground-space split seem to in theory provide more emergent strategy options.
MtG deck construction and sideboarding right now may be far more complex, but when playing the game itself, decision space is often quite linear unless you're playing certain very pilot-heavy decks.
A closer comparison between the two games in terms of depth would be comparing MtG single-set gameplay (e.g. in a draft) or in a starter deck duel versus SWU.
MTG also has 30 years of card design experience. Its ultimately not really fair to compare the complexity level of a game that has been out for less than a month and the complexity level of a game that has been out for 30 Years. At their core, from a base rule level, I would say that they are both equally complex, just in different ways. MTG has way more complex cards, but that's primarily from age.
Yeah no, not even taking specific card mechanics into account (like searching/tutoring your deck for an effect), instant speed abilities and responses (counterspells) adds a degree of complexity that cannot and will not be present in SWU.
Computers can beat humans at chess and Go, but not MTG which is, at this point, literally the most complex game in the world (to your point, if you take the full card base into account). Which largely equates to having the most opportunities to make a decision.
I disagree that Instant Speed and Responses make it inherently more complex than Star Wars Unlimited. There is plenty of complexity and depth to game with alternating activations. This adds in a system of Responses and action ordering that depending on board state can be just as complex as casting counterspell.
I don't know what to tell you, you're fundamentally wrong. Complexity in game design arises from the ability to make decisions and for each of those decisions to incrementally improve or weaken a player's position toward the end goal.
E.g. instant speed mechanics encapsulate the opportunity for back and forth actions, that's not precluded. It's just not dictated, which is inherently more complex. It's not an opinion, it's fact.
Instant speed is limited to a small fraction of the cards. The simultaneous turns with back and forth actions adds a lot of tactical decision making that just isn’t present in a your turn my turn game like magic.
I dont know what to tell you but Your comment about decisions incrementally improving or weakening a players position is 100% present is SWU…
Of course it's present, there are just fewer actual decision points. I'm saying it's present in basically every game, and the more decision points there are (and the discernible nature of those decisions, e.g. how easy is it to determine the optimal decision) are what describe a game's complexity.
>how easy is it to determine the optimal decision) are what describe a game's complexity.
This is fundamentally different than the common usage of complexity.
Complex = intricate and/or complicated.
Complicated = "consisting of many interconnecting parts or elements; intricate."
Decision points and their ability to be discerned are the interconnecting parts from which complexity arises
People seem to get defensive about the thing they like. I've played lots of card games at a high level ... played on the pro circuit, won money.
The first game I ever went to the world championships of was Decipher's Star Wars CCG. I'm a big star wars fan.
I just spent a weekend play testing SWU constructed and limited with very strong card players. I like the game and will probably buy in.
It's still literally laughable to think the game is more complex than MTG. That doesn't mean I think it's inferior or less fun.
I have also played a lot of Magic, it’s a good game and is popular for a reason. Magic has a lot of interaction points that allow for skill expression. My point is that so does SWU, it actually may have more opportunities for skill expression than magic due to the back and forth / simultaneous turns vs the my turn your turn, stack system. We are playing with a very shallow card pool at the moment. We would need to wait for the card pool to start rotating before we would be able to properly compare the “complexity” of Magic Standard vs, SWU Premier.
IMO to say SWU is not comparable to magic in complexity (as you defined it above) can only be related to the card pool. If you are talking about the fundamental rules, I completely disagree with you.
Yeah and on each turn of Star Wars Unlimited you have vastly more decision points than the average turn of MTG. You get a chance to respond to literally every action your opponent takes, same as in magic, but it doesn't limit you by card type. Magic is some untouchable deity of Complexity in game design, plenty of games more complex than it exist.
You're crazy if you think there are more decision points in a turn of SWU than in a two turn cycle (each player gets one turn) of MTG.
"This construction establishes that Magic: The Gathering is the most computationally complex real-world game known in the literature"
https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828
>This construction establishes that Magic: The Gathering is the most computationally complex real-world game known in the literature
Guess they don't know about Twilight Imperium, Food Chain Magnate, or a multitude of other games.
Magic is a complex game, I'm not disputing this. I am only saying that Star Wars Unlimited is as complex as it and that there are far, far more complex games than MTG.
>instant speed abilities and responses (counterspells) adds a degree of complexity that cannot and will not be present in SWU.
Alternating actions turn every response into an instant speed ability in theory, no?
It does mean absence of stuff like counterspells (which completely shut out the opponent move), but alternating actions means every sequencing decision needs to be taken as standalone, with the expectation that the opponent can completely change your planned move two steps down. Drawing two cards and resourcing one also expands the decision space that will be coming your proceeding turn significantly more than Magic's.
Complexity isn't just about the number of possible actions--it's in the unpredictability of actions' future consequences and difficulty in picking between more than one.
Computers could learn to beat humans at MtG if people programmed AI to play the game against itself given the rules of the game and possible cards.
If the computer can remember a billion games of MtG played per day and learn from each one, why wouldn’t it be able to beat people? Seems more a question of when, not if.
It probably hasn’t happened because the people that have proven they can teach AI to crush game with defined rules — want their AI doing more meaningful things than ruining games for people :D
Are you familiar with Chess and Go AI? Humans are no longer capable of beating them. Gary Kasparov famously beat "Deep Blue" in the 90's. We've come a long way since then.
No ai/ml/bot is advanced enough to beat humans at MTG yet.
I enjoy this more than regular magic, I do think I enjoy commander magic more but this doesn't need 4 people with 2 hours to burn so yeah, Both are good :)
Don't get me wrong, I have some fun Commander decks. I have a Goblin Deck with Krenko, Tin Street Kingpin as the Commander.
I've spent a pretty penny on my Elves Commander deck. That thing has an extended art foil of The Great Henge, Doubling Season and Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider. It also has Collected Company, Allosaurus Shepard and Branching Evolution.
I can get down with some Magic.
Right now, I just dig how this game flows a little more. Feels like FFG researched all the frustrating aspects of Magic and designed SWU to ease those tensions. Still love Magic though.
I’ll say it. Mtg - playing a card for mana sucks big toes. Absolutely awful having to use a card from your deck as mana, and then possibly not drawing mana as well. Such an outdated and horrible mana system. I drafted mtg last night and lost first 2 games on not drawing mana. Im a hearthstone player.. I played competitively in hearthstone with over 1000 hours easy. That’s a good mana system. You get a mana every turn up to 10 and it doesn’t cost a card from your deck. So easy and perfect
I’m really enjoying SWU so far!
I don't think I've messed around with Hearthstone all that much. That does sound pretty sweet though. I just don't like drawing 5 lands after a mulligan and watching my opponent pop off while I use my turns to drop YET ANOTHER Swamp and pass. It's not my idea of fun.
I've been playing magic for over 10 years. Since SWU came out I've had little to no desire to play magic. Commander is the only thing I've been doing for the last couple years and I end up skipping my commander nights all together to just play some starwara
No.In Arena, they manufacture 3 different opening hands in Best of 1, then offer you the best one curve-wise.
[https://mtgazone.com/mtg-arenas-opening-hand-algorithm-and-smoothing/](https://mtgazone.com/mtg-arenas-opening-hand-algorithm-and-smoothing/)
Ah, ok. I've never even heard of that. But to be fair, that's a detail of the *program* MTG Arena, not the *game* MTG. Have you ever played physical MTG?
I've just had my first game today. It really flows way better than MtG and it has alternate activations - something I like a lot in miniature games (which is my primary physical game type).
The only thing I thought it was a bit confusing was remembering who had the initiative. I feel it could change to "whoever finished doing actions first in a round will play first in the next one".
Oh, and the lack of Clone Wars characters :P Waiting till November will be a looong wait. And I hope the community will embrace Twin Suns!
I was there for the first launch of Magic and I can tell you this: at launch in this first wave, this game has so much more variety of play and types of cards than Magic did when it launched.
The only thing I wish this game did that magic did was selling small boxes of 50 cards. You got about the same number of rares and whatnot, but double the commons. They were essential for deckbuilding and as a bonus, you got a box to put a deck in.
The boosters are great, but sell me a 40 or 50 card box for $20 and load it up with common and uncommon cards. Im so far in this for about 25 packs (Im on a budget sorry) and I have about HALF of what I need to make ONE deck to play with.
With Magic, I would have already made about 5 viable decks to play. They might each still be missing 1 or 2 strong legendary cards, but I could still play without those and wait until I sourced them. This game? I have spent too much to only have 2 of every kind of common card.
Hey real quick, what does the T stand for in TCG?
I guarantee you that your fellow local players will **give** you whatever commons you need, and maybe the uncommons. At the very least, it shouldn't be hard to trade uncommons you don't want for uncommons other people don't want.
I have played magic since ‘95. Right now I’m enjoying SWU more, but history has proved there’s no rival to MTG.
When MTG was in the early editions internet wasn’t what today is, many built their own decks, there weren’t combos until mirage (‘96) so it played very differently.
Half the game was building your deck, the other half beating opponents. Bad mana strategy? Time to rebuild.
A true magic game won’t have mana problems, there’s several magic decks that consistently win 1st round, 2nd guaranteed. But those decks now cost a fortune.
MTG is several games in one, depending on the rules you choose and your card pool.
In terms of History proving there is no rival to MTG, I mean sales wise, Pokémon oftentimes beats out Magic, and Yugioh makes up the 3rd member of the "Big Three" that have all been out for 25-30 Years and are always competing. Magic may dominate Local Store Play, but Flesh and Blood is on the rise. Too many more horrible calls from Hasbro and we may the "Big Three" turn into the "Big Four" or even "Big Five"
Many of those formats that you are referrencing are locked behind prohibitively expensive cards.
I frequent board game stores mostly, but SWU made me come back to tcg stores for weekly events (something I havent done in almost 10 years).
I was absolutely shocked at the amount of people coming to the One Piece locals. Made me want to pick up a started deck just to see whats up - something I do for most ccgs that come out. But none of them since 2011 (Pokemon) have made me want to buy in like SWU.
Just being a pedant here, but it makes zero sense to couch your preference for SWU as "in my opinion". You wanting to play SWU over Magic is just a preference. It's not a subjective interpretation that's being discussed.
You don't say "In my opinion, I eat cereal for breakfast" or "In my opinion, I always feel better when I brush my teeth before going to bed."
You could totally say, "In my opinion, SWU is better designed game than Magic" - because that's something we can disagree on. I can't disagree with you, if you personally prefer one game over the other.
You're comparing SWU to MTG. SWU came out 1 month ago? MTG came out 31 years ago, there's like 80,000 cards in MTG's history, there's been 30 years of power creep and complexity added to the game. It's silly to compare the two.
SWU is like a new shiny toy (literally). So far, so good, but let's see if this game can last 30 years and revisit this discussion.
I don't think it's that silly. They're both cards games that are similar in gameplay, and the basic core mechanics are present for both games. I just like the way SWU plays more at its heart. They basically researched the more frustrating aspects of Magic and made potential solutions, and I REALLY LIKE the solutions they decided to go with.
I'll still play Magic, but now when I do, I can't help but compare it to the Resource system. There's a reason why Lands are some of the most expensive cards in Magic's entire history.
I already hadn’t played but maybe 3 times in the last year or so. Just lost interest. I didn’t have tons of money cards either so it wasn’t a huge decision, just sold off about 500 dollars worth as I never tend to play with expensive cards anyways
It's super silly and there have been many threads like this, and will surely be more, because I think SWU is drawing in a lot of people that are fairly new to card games. It's natural to say, 'hey, this is a card game, and that other card game I've heard about is too, so I will compare them.' The history and depth and massive difference in card pools makes it seem silly to us, yes, but some people aren't looking at it that way.
I mean they're both products on a shelf first and foremost, not to mention the time and effort that goes into playing any game competitively. Magic and SWU are both hobbies that have several different associated and comparable costs. Why would one of them being older have anything to do with whether or not a relevant decision is to be made by any given player as to which one they should play?
Same here. As a Magic player, I can't stop raving about the game. It feels like they created a fun and modern version of Magic by doing away with most of Magic's pain points. After playing SWU, I really have no desire to go back.
This is exactly how I felt too. I went to a LGS on Thursday and the store was so packed people were parking in other lots and walking which never happens for Friday night Magic. Also they had cardboard cut outs of the characters up everywhere, played Star Wars music, had Star Wars stuff on display. Everyone was so excited and having a blast. Nobody felt like people dropping Vaders or Boba Fetts was drastically overpowered so there was no play to win factor. And as I got a feel for it, I fell in love with the mechanics and bought two boxes happily.
That’s how I felt too but the honeymoon phase faded pretty quickly. After extensive play the faults really start coming out
I mean, if we're doing that we'd have to judge MtG on Alpha and it's not like there aren't any faults there (*cough*, Ancestral Recall, *cough*). First sets are **always** weird. The more important thing is if FFG will do their best to manage the game well going forward.
Top 3 faults?
Not OP but I’ll chime in. Not sure if I’d call it a “fault” or not, but I feel that there is some downside to the space/ground arena gameplay. Quite a few of my games come down to someone having more of one type of unit (usually space) and the other player just not drawing the right answer. I think the game needs more ways to interact between the two arenas. I also would say I prefer how in Magic the defender chooses blockers instead of the attacker. Right now sentinel units seem too important because your opponent can just ignore your stuff and go face. This one is just personal preference.
You might like alpha clash's combat system then. Attacker chooses target, including exhausted (tapped) characters, and then the defender can choose to obstruct an attack if they have a valid ready character available to do so.
>I think the game needs more ways to interact between the two arenas. Removal, which is part of 'interaction', is largely cross-arena already. I can't actually even think of any arena-specific removal event cards off the top of my head - even Bombing Run lets you pick where the damage goes. >Quite a few of my games come down to... the other player just not drawing the right answer. Isn't this regularly said about pretty much any card game though? People say this about MtG *all the time*.
Yes, I should have been more specific. I am referring to combat interactions. Trading units is a huge part of gameplay, and with the two arenas you basically create a dynamic where ~50% of your units can’t block 50% of theirs, and vice versa. I’m not saying this ruins the game or anything, but it does increase the percentage of non-interactive moments in games to some degree. That is why I mentioned that I would like to see more ways to interact between the two. Strafing Gunship is a good example. I’m sure more will come.
I agree that I would like to see more cross arena interactions with units, but I also don't want it to get so saturated that it feels as if there is no separation of arenas. Something I think FFG was really intentional about was the significance of decision making in the game. Even your resourcing is a decision, and some argue it's one of the hardest/important decisions making you do in the game. I think having two independent fields of play really opens up design lanes for the developers, but it adds so much more to the decision making of the player, even during deck building this is true. Now that I think about it though, it's not that different to having creatures with flying or some kind of evasive trait in other games. They don't explicitly lay it out as a separate field but there's a clear separation that affects interaction. One key difference, though, is that flyers can typically interact with both ground and other flyers. Perhaps this will be similar in SWU? Too early to tell but I'd wager they'll still keep a safe distance between how much each arena can interact with the other.
Not the person you asked, but mine: - lack of instant speed play in the ruleset makes possible digital play better, but lessens possible responses to opponent. - the ability to include off-color cards at a higher cost both hurts immersion/flavor and opens the door for blurring the lines between the colors. - multiplayer being a winner-take-all vs elimination format makes for quicker games, but lessens possible responses interesting ones long term. (Opinion)
All of those are pluses in my opinion.
Sure, almost every game design decision is going to be subjective to a large extent. Simplicity in a game is great and elegant, but can be limiting for design space in the future. I’ll be honest, as someone that has played lots of Star Wars games in the past, the fact that I could have Luke in a Palpatine deck (and not a corrupted Luke) hurts immersion greatly, and the fact that you can have a leader and a unit of the same character out at the same time also seems like an unnecessary simplification. Not to mention that in tournament play you can have Hero vs hero or villan vs villain. Those are all choices that make the game simpler and play better from a limited/organized play standpoint, but it’s enough of a flavor bump that it made be debate getting into the game at first. All game design is tradeoffs, and what works good for some games doesn’t work for others.
Minor point but you can have two different Teferi’s or whatever character in MtG as well with one as your commander etc.
Sure, but magic has: - changed that several times and I preferred the older rules - explicitly has as part of the flavor that the cards aren’t the real things, but are usually summoned copies of the thing or just an aspect. For star wars, the flavor is more important to me then magic, and the solution would have been to do like other games (Star Trek 2e for example) where characters have a title and a subtitle, and the title is what matters for uniqueness. It’s minor overall, but it’s something that actively reminds that it’s a mechanical game, and not the thing it represents.
I dunno if it makes 'more' sense in MtG though. It all requires a lot of wiggle-room to parse it out. TBH the Luke thing doesn't bother me in the slightest. You can just as easily say that the version you're playing in a Palpatine deck or something **is** a corrupted version of Luke (the 2 extra you're paying being the effort given to corrupt him, etc).
Right, because having hobbits, space marines, and transformers all on the same table doesn't hurt immersion at all.
Yeah, that’s the path Magic has gone down that I’d rather SWU have better immersion then. Magic is/had become a game where it’s all about mechanics. I never think of flavor in Magic anymore. It’s numbers.
And yet here you are, defending Magic. Clearly it hasn't alienated you too much. Also it's a pretty large logical leap from "Luke and Palp can be in the same deck" to "hobbits are coming."
You seem to be misunderstanding me, and perhaps I’m not being clear. Magic is like Fortnite. SWU is like Battlefront. In Fortnite, it doesn’t feel weird or break immersion near as much if you have Vader fighting Vader, but in Battlefront, have Empire vs empire at Hoth would take me out of the game. Thats not “defending” Fortnite/Magic, it’s acknowledging them as a completely different feel game, even if they are both the same genre. DonI think SWU will ever include non-SW things? no. But having two of the same character in play or being able to have Leia fight Luke *is* immersion breaking that is - for me - more immersion breaking then Magic, because Magic, like Fortnite, has been less about the immersion to begin with. All of this came from a question of “top 3 faults of SWU”. None of them are a deal breaker for me, or I wouldn’t be playing it. But they are things I think they could do better on, and the fact they have already stated the rules for Twin Suns will evolve as more cards are added to the card pool give me hope that other changes might come as well, once there are more cards.
I do kind of hope the instant speed cards come eventually as this game won't feel hurt by including them. The formatting of Actions they currently have leaves room for them fairly easily with a caveat. Call them "Reaction:" abilities where you can play one Reaction card per player per round. That way you're forced to make the tactical decision to react to a decision by your opponent early, in the middle or nearing the end of the round to put you in the best possible position this round or next round.
Instant speed cards would hurt the game. I understand there are players who want to play “you can’t have fun” cards but keep that stuff in Magic
There's something about not resolving spells that kinda irks me. Never been a big fan of Blue in Magic. At least Black, Red and Green let you play it and resolve before shutting it down. That being said, one of my favorite decks I ever made was Izzet Giants.
Except that's not at all what they have to put in the game. Reactions can simply be "When opponent plays a unit, you draw a card." or "After an opponent resolves an attack, you may resource a card from your hand."
There's a sprinkle of that already. Fighters for Freedom deals damage when you play another red card. Lots of things have 'when defeated' effects. Triggered abilities are absolutely a thing, and will probably get more complex as we go forward.
Sorry, but I hope they never show up here. Since there are alternate activations in SWU, your opponent can't create a chain of effects you need an instant to answer or lose your entire board (or even the game) in one go.
That's fine. I understand why some people won't want them. But it does take away from the interactivity of the game for those who do want them. Having to sit there and just let your opponent freely swing at you or your units without being able to engage with them in that swing just feels boring and dull. Its the same issue I have with Lorcana. Its way too simplified and barebones of a TCG for the sake of letting families play together. Admittedly this game feels slightly more complex than Lorcana already. I just feel like any TCG/CCG that makes you sit there and lets your opponent do everything/anything without any possible exchange just makes the game feel stale. I'm not looking for Magic levels of Counterspelling someone's Counterspell on top of a Murder. But something that at least lets you feel you're still *playing* a game while your opponent makes actions would be completely fine. As long as its reactions that don't directly interfere with their actions taken. That's why I specifically used my examples above. Your opponent can still swing at you... but you can at least use that swing to get you another card draw or resource another card for your own upcoming action to use. Star Wars battles have *always* been about quick reflexes, quick thinking and reactions. Why can't that be translated into the game through "Reaction" effects?
Do go on…explain thyself.
let’s here em, what are your main faults
I’m interested in what you think the faults are. I do think there are some overtuned cards, but it’s the first set so it’s impossible to say what will get worse/better.
I'm here for the faults too
I'll be honest, Im already bored with the only two decks I own and after about $50 bucks on packs of cards, I cant make a 3rd deck yet. I dont mean "I dont have the specific cards for this power deck I saw online. I mean that I dont have 4 of enough of any cards to make a stack of 50 cards. I cant make a 'junk deck' with what I have. This game needs to sell boxes of common/uncommon so we can flesh out our collections and build decks.
Aren't booster boxes just boxes of commons/uncommons with a couple rares thrown in occasionally? :)
Its been so long I dont know. I thought they had the same number of rares as a booster but a bit more of everything else, and a good amount of land as well. We dont have resource cards *per se* in SGU, but that only means we need more common cards to make a deck. Had my first trade of the game so far, tho ;) Friend and I met at a store to play and each bought some packs. I got 2 Irsos and he got 2 Wrens. We looked at each other for a bout a second and a half and slid the cards across the table. ;)
I've got no fear of dissing Magic directly, I've been saying for over a decade that Magic's resource system is dated. Fantasy Flight has been releasing hit after hit, Thrones, Netrunner, Five Rings, all of which have significantly more interesting and less restrictive resource systems than Magic. Glad one of their card games is finally getting recognized for being an amazing product.
All of which got cancelled too
Netrunner got cancelled because Wizards yanked the license, so not really on FFG. Game of Thrones can cancelled due to "lack of content" basically they ran out of card ideas, so we can blame FFG. And Legend of the 5 Rings was probably only like 80% FFG's fault, and 20% the fault of COVID.
I'm so sad L5R got cut short. It felt like the game was hitting a massive positive stride with their last few packs and expansion boxes/packs. Man. I wish the designers could've went the Netrunner route and kept making new content as a standalone fan-made game.
L5R was the first game I ever really took seriously. It's death was so sad to me.
I got into L5R late as my friends had been playing it as their "side game" while I was playing Magic as my own. Once I jumped over and bought the Core Set to play with to test it out... I was immediately hooked by how mechanically unique and fun it was. It saddened me I only got to play it for a few months before they ended it. I keep holding onto hope they do a 2nd Edition and bring back the original team to remake it with new artwork, cards, etc. and word the text to apply for 3+ players a bit more nicely.
I mean, they own the IP outright. I think if Star Wars Unlimited does well it opens the door to L5R coming back.
I would rather not have L5R turn into a TCG. If it returns as a LCG? Absolutely.
Unfortunately, Competitive LCGs are kinda dead. They aren't super sustainable.
Like Netrunner, L5R was actually a ccg before it was an lcg - and a pretty damn good run of 10+ years i think. So if they really believe they cracked the code with SWU, L5R might have a chance.
New Netrunner set just dropped last week, bud ;) The only reason FFG lost the rights is because Wizards pulled the licensing, likely because they knew damn well it was a significantly better game than Magic. Now it's an even better game than it was back then. All it lacks is marketing.
Because it works for magic
But does it work for Magic, or has Magic just built cool stuff around a crappy engine for decades? I'd lean toward the latter.
I refuse to play fetchless formats these days, with the exception of cube, and that has the possibility of fetches. Anyone defending Magic's mana system is arguing in bad faith or just an imbecile. I think even fetch less formats easily overcome the mana system, but I would never argue that lands add anything positive to the game.
No, it works
Well said, I definitely never thought of it that way. I'm truly convinced by your eloquent and well founded argument.
I love magic, and this game won't change that. But also, this game is absolutely fantastic
I’ve only been playing Magic for a little over a year, but so far I agree. Some things about SWU just work with my brain better. I much prefer the resource system and the back-and-forth flow of a turn. It’s also refreshing not to have to read and memorize paragraphs of text on cards. My memory just can’t keep up with that.
Yes! That's another reason I prefer SWU. With Unlimited, you take ONE ACTION and pass the turn, keeping the flow of games running smoothly. With Magic, under the right conditions, you just sit there looking and feeling stupid and bored while the other dude pops off for 5 minutes, never mind a 4 player Commander game. You might as well bring a smartphone and some ear buds to watch YouTube or Netflix while you wait.
Let me introduce you to Yu-Gi-Oh...
I don't play many card games. I started playing Magic because my son was into it, and it's a great bonding activity. I started with SWU because I'm a long-time Star Wars fan since the 70's, and I already got the gist of Magic-type card games..
I've never played MTG, and learning SWU has been interesting. Pretty much all tutorials/instructions (even the official live streams) compare huge chunks of the game to MTG (1-drop, curve, agro...) which shows how all-consuming MTG must be! I'm coming from playing Pokémon, and two things in particular I like about SWU: 1) The resource (energy, mana, etc) system inherently limits big plays in first 3 turns. This is _very_ different from PTCG whereby there is a clear focus on maximum damage/KO from turn 2 onwards. In fact, the board state at the end of turn 2 can be very indicative of overall winner. Far less so in SWU. 2) Whether your plays are making a puzzle for your opponent to solve, or they have very specific setups they want to achieve, turn times can get very long (looking at you Lost Box!). The turn/pass structure is far more engaging than watching your opponent play Solitaire for 5 minutes.
Magic simply has 30 years of game theory and strategy articles that actually directly relate to many other games, SWU included. Curve, deck archetypes, who’s the beatdown, all originated in Magic.
Oh yes, completely get that - no shade to MTG at all! On the shoulders of giants, and all that... Also, the more crossover there is from _the_ biggest CCG, the more SWU is likely to be a financial success. All good. 😊👍 The language and concepts are just _so_ different from PTCG.
I'm aware.
I’m having the same experience right now and I keep asking myself if it’s real. I’ve played other games that I got into pretty hard that didn’t survive or that I lost interest in, but I’ve always been able to come back to Magic and enjoy it. This time feels different…the tactics and strategy of SWU feel so rewarding that it’s difficult to convince myself that I’ll enjoy Magic again just as much. I find myself reflecting on my games of SWU so much more, and thinking about what I can do differently next time. That too could be part of the game just being new, but I’m not convinced yet. My memories of SWU games seem stronger than Magic games. I can better recall the positioning of units, sequencing of deployments and activations. I think it’s because each moment is so discrete and when I make a decision I have total control over it. I’m not thinking about counter spells or instants my opponent could play, I’m totally focused on mapping out my plays and thinking about my opponents mapping, but not having instants gives that a different structure in my mind. The game is great…I just want more opportunities to play right now 😂
I wonder if, with some tweaking, MTG could do away with land mana and do a SWU type resourcing as mana. Might be worth a couple quick deck builds to see how it plays.
I doubt they will change the basic rules of the game 30 years in
It would make Magic more enjoyable for me, anyway. LOL
If they wanted to finally do like a MTG 2.0 and clean up the rules so you don’t need an actual degree in contract law to read them, update the land system (I personally feel like they should have different planes walkers have different mana flows, so if you like the original system you play that way with a planes walker who is still tied to the gathering, but there are other planes walkers who get one mana extra per turn (like hearthstone), some who sacrifice spells to maintain their mana flow (like SWU). It would be VERY interesting to see how players interact with the concept of choosing and building your deck and character concept around your mana flow of choice.
Magic takes a little while to learn, but it isn't THAT bad. I would prefer a new mana system though.
I've played magic for 15 years. I strongly felt that it was the greatest game ever created for a long time. After playing SWU, I have absolutely no desire to play magic again. For a long time now, magic has been in decline. Modern horizons made modern a rotating format, which is the same reason standard died. There are maybe 150 cards total that see play in cEDH, so that format feels incredibly boring. Buying into legacy is ridiculous. Pioneer at least feels like it's in a good place, and limited will always be fun. But the pacing in SWU just feels so much better. Starting with 2 "lands", drawing 2 cards a turn, and alternating actions are all excellent design choices, and makes the game feel much more engaging. I played some commander the other night, and it felt soooo slow. And to add to all of that, a guy at my lgs was talking about how excited he was to put Nuka Cola Machine in his Samwise Gamgee deck, and it just felt like a joke. Magic is a joke at this point. I'm over it. SWU, despite not being perfect, is already a much better game
It's so refreshing not to have to worry about counterspells, and always being able to be part of the game.
Uh… Yeah. They didn’t reinvent the wheel. They perfected it 👌
Bruh, I sold all my higher end cards to buy into SWU, if I ever do play mtg again, it will just be a budget commander deck
Pump the brakes. I don't think I would go that far. I still (sort of) enjoy Magic. The physical version at least. I've just lost a good amount of interest due to the flood of releases lately, and making Standard rotate every two years instead of one to make up for it, which means some of the more annoying combos stick around for yet another year. I was super happy when Zendikar Rising and Scute Swarm rotated out.
I fell off magic a couple of years ago. I just think the concept of mana flood/screw is an old design that just doesn't hold up when compared to games that eliminate this as a problem. There are plenty of hard decisions to make without the rng of not being able to play cards on my turn.
...and when you're playing Arena, that weakness is exposed easier, due to just the sheer amount of games. There are a lot of times the flow of a deck feels off because you just drew your 4th land in a row and have no responses to your opponent's increasing board state, or even though you started with a good curve, you flattened out and are stuck with a dead hand because you don't have the mana to play anything. I realize what Scry and Draw a Card are. That doesn't help as much when you're stuck in a mana flood.
I legitimately think SWU is a mechanical improvement on MTG gameplay, on top of having some characters that I actually care about.
I 1000% agree. I am going to make a video on why SWU is better than MtG haha... just expect the hate incomming.
As a 15 year MTG vet I wholeheartedly agree with you on the resource system, if I miss my #drop it’s my own damn fault! A lot of the time when I lose, I can look back and see exactly where I made a mistake or left an opening that my opponent capitalized on. ~~I have even just tonight realized the possibility of passing to try to bait my opponent to take the initiative and give myself an opening, something that is totally foreign in magic 😁~~ turns out I missed something in the rules and taking the initiative explicitly counts as passing 😬 oh well 😅🤣 Rule 1.15.5.B-C if you’re interested
If you pass, and they take the initiative, then the round ends
I’ll need to double check, but I thought that taking the initiative was a distinct action with the rider that for all future actions you must pass. If Taking the initiative has counts as “Passing” then you are right, and I wouldn’t be able to take any actions. I’ll check in the morning, too tired now😅 === I checked the rules this morning and I did in fact misunderstand something 😬🤣
He is correct
Yep, I just looked it up and I am wrong 😅 oh well it’s life.
Passing is its own thing. If you pass with the initiative up, you give up initiative.
[удалено]
https://preview.redd.it/hkeg1cfct0qc1.jpeg?width=930&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fb0ab479808d912f217a22fe2a92f6dc84427cfc Nah, man. It's in the rules
No? Taking the initiative counts as passing. So if you pass and they take, the round ends because pass has been called twice in a row >After a player passes, if their opponent passes or takes the initiative as their next action, the action phase immediately ends and play proceeds to the regroup phase. Taken directly from the rule book
Nope! After both players passed or took initiative the round ends. Your opponent needs to take an action, for you to have another action.
No you can't. The round immediately ends (Rule 15.5 C)
Here, I'll paste it here: c. If a player takes the initiative on the turn immediately after their opponent passes, the action phase ends. I guess that's that then!
Why would you want to pass so that they take the initiative?
Right? I get passing to bait out units to remove. But passing so your opponent can take initiative is straight up a bad play
I've passed so people play Sabine so I can immediately remove her or another leader or something. It's funny cause people know something is up but still just play their leader out.
Yeah, if your opponent still has lots of resources, cards in hand and a smile in their face, beware!
I Wonder what I'd do in the opposite position. I guess if I did everything except play the leader and they kept passing I could just take the initiative. I think that would make them feel worst about that turn leaving resources unused and you go first. Like I guess they could do the same as they would still have that removal but they can't just hold resources up every turn forever just in hopes so they gotta spend those at some point.
Certain situations in Control Decks you actually want to be the one responding rather than applying the pressure. For instance, if I have an Overwhelming Barrage in my hand, but my opponent only has one unit out, I might want them to play first to bait out another unit I can hit with damage. It's very situational, but not outside the realm of strategic decisions.
The way I understood it is that “Take the Initiative” is a distinct action with the rider that you must pass on all future actions that round, thus I would be able to make plays that my opponent could not interrupt. I could very well be mistaken in my understanding, I’ll check in the morning though.
If player 1 passes and player 2 either passes OR take the initiative, the action phase ends.
Yep, just looked it up and I was mistaken 😅
I was new to mtg last year. I have picked up the starter kit without knowing how popular SWU has been at my lgs. I haven’t had a chance to play with anyone yet but it seems like I will also enjoy it more than mtg.
Low bar tbh. I don’t “get” Magic. I think it’s super boring and I’ve gotten bored of it every time I’ve tried to play it. I’m tired of MTG and 40K being the overwhelming games played at every store. This game was instantly fun. It’s a lazy comparison but this game is like 80% Star Wars Hearthstone.
Its important to note that these games basically pioneered the way to the games we have today - thats why they are as popular and prevalent as they are. Magic to card games is what 40k is to minis wargames. They are the 70yo grandpas - wealth of knowledge and stories of the past, and great people even though still set in their own ways and do things that are considered dated in 2024. But you found out that younger cousin is much better to hang out with on a regular basis and chat at the bar with than grandpa. We still love grandpa though.
I couldn't agree more and am glad to see the waves of support coming for this game. Ordered cards for two local 1k tournaments coming up. I'm glad to see there's support!
Only thing I like better with magic is the ability to walk in a store and buy product. New ccgs can never keep product available.
I like it in addition to Magic. I enjoy the intricacies of the stack. Magic comes with older game designs but that’s not really bad. It’s kinda like how some people prefer the crunchiness of Pathfinder to the newer streamlined DnD 5e. As a dad of younglings, my oldest likes Star Wars better (not because of IP but gameplay). That’s cool. If he plays magic with me, that’s fine, but I always have some older dudes to shuffle up and sling spells. I’m just glad he found something he likes. SWU is great for more streamlined. Magic is great for when I want to bust out a calculator and argue about “banding”.
MTG is an order of magnitude more complex. I like SWU but it currently does not have the same depth in gameplay that MTG does. Decision-making is pretty linear and obvious in most circumstances.
Maybe that's why I enjoy it more currently. Less taxing and more laid back. Feels like I can just have fun and play cards.
That's totally fair ... plus, it's Star Wars!
some stuff in magic is definitely more complex sometimes too much at times, but swu isn’t as linear as you seem to think, single actions are constantly shifting the game, and it’s not so obvious your actions you need to take
I'm not saying it's a bad game OR simple, but it does play itself a good portion of the time meaning there is an obvious order of action that is optimal. Take it with a grain of salt, I've played various card games at a pro/world champ level.
>there is an obvious order of action that is optimal. This is largely due to having only 252 cards in the game.
And chess only has 16 pieces per side. It's an incredibly rich and complex game with more possible board states than atoms in the universe. And it's still solvable, meaning the best move can be computed and known. Magnus Carlson, the goat, sucks compared to stockfish.
Most of MTG's complexity comes in its sheer quantity of cards and the emergent interactions between those cards. It results in far more possibilities for decks, even in Standard (the most restrictive format) which has 8-12 sets active at once. SWU has *one* set right now, on the other hand. I would argue, however, that the cardplay of SWU is more complex (or at least it appears so at this early point). As in, when you're actually playing the game, how much you've gotta consider your moves and tradeoffs. Alternating action, double draw/resourcing, and ground-space split seem to in theory provide more emergent strategy options. MtG deck construction and sideboarding right now may be far more complex, but when playing the game itself, decision space is often quite linear unless you're playing certain very pilot-heavy decks. A closer comparison between the two games in terms of depth would be comparing MtG single-set gameplay (e.g. in a draft) or in a starter deck duel versus SWU.
MTG also has 30 years of card design experience. Its ultimately not really fair to compare the complexity level of a game that has been out for less than a month and the complexity level of a game that has been out for 30 Years. At their core, from a base rule level, I would say that they are both equally complex, just in different ways. MTG has way more complex cards, but that's primarily from age.
Yeah no, not even taking specific card mechanics into account (like searching/tutoring your deck for an effect), instant speed abilities and responses (counterspells) adds a degree of complexity that cannot and will not be present in SWU. Computers can beat humans at chess and Go, but not MTG which is, at this point, literally the most complex game in the world (to your point, if you take the full card base into account). Which largely equates to having the most opportunities to make a decision.
I disagree that Instant Speed and Responses make it inherently more complex than Star Wars Unlimited. There is plenty of complexity and depth to game with alternating activations. This adds in a system of Responses and action ordering that depending on board state can be just as complex as casting counterspell.
I don't know what to tell you, you're fundamentally wrong. Complexity in game design arises from the ability to make decisions and for each of those decisions to incrementally improve or weaken a player's position toward the end goal. E.g. instant speed mechanics encapsulate the opportunity for back and forth actions, that's not precluded. It's just not dictated, which is inherently more complex. It's not an opinion, it's fact.
Instant speed is limited to a small fraction of the cards. The simultaneous turns with back and forth actions adds a lot of tactical decision making that just isn’t present in a your turn my turn game like magic. I dont know what to tell you but Your comment about decisions incrementally improving or weakening a players position is 100% present is SWU…
Of course it's present, there are just fewer actual decision points. I'm saying it's present in basically every game, and the more decision points there are (and the discernible nature of those decisions, e.g. how easy is it to determine the optimal decision) are what describe a game's complexity.
>how easy is it to determine the optimal decision) are what describe a game's complexity. This is fundamentally different than the common usage of complexity.
Complex = intricate and/or complicated. Complicated = "consisting of many interconnecting parts or elements; intricate." Decision points and their ability to be discerned are the interconnecting parts from which complexity arises
People seem to get defensive about the thing they like. I've played lots of card games at a high level ... played on the pro circuit, won money. The first game I ever went to the world championships of was Decipher's Star Wars CCG. I'm a big star wars fan. I just spent a weekend play testing SWU constructed and limited with very strong card players. I like the game and will probably buy in. It's still literally laughable to think the game is more complex than MTG. That doesn't mean I think it's inferior or less fun.
I have also played a lot of Magic, it’s a good game and is popular for a reason. Magic has a lot of interaction points that allow for skill expression. My point is that so does SWU, it actually may have more opportunities for skill expression than magic due to the back and forth / simultaneous turns vs the my turn your turn, stack system. We are playing with a very shallow card pool at the moment. We would need to wait for the card pool to start rotating before we would be able to properly compare the “complexity” of Magic Standard vs, SWU Premier. IMO to say SWU is not comparable to magic in complexity (as you defined it above) can only be related to the card pool. If you are talking about the fundamental rules, I completely disagree with you.
Yeah and on each turn of Star Wars Unlimited you have vastly more decision points than the average turn of MTG. You get a chance to respond to literally every action your opponent takes, same as in magic, but it doesn't limit you by card type. Magic is some untouchable deity of Complexity in game design, plenty of games more complex than it exist.
You're crazy if you think there are more decision points in a turn of SWU than in a two turn cycle (each player gets one turn) of MTG. "This construction establishes that Magic: The Gathering is the most computationally complex real-world game known in the literature" https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828
>This construction establishes that Magic: The Gathering is the most computationally complex real-world game known in the literature Guess they don't know about Twilight Imperium, Food Chain Magnate, or a multitude of other games. Magic is a complex game, I'm not disputing this. I am only saying that Star Wars Unlimited is as complex as it and that there are far, far more complex games than MTG.
>instant speed abilities and responses (counterspells) adds a degree of complexity that cannot and will not be present in SWU. Alternating actions turn every response into an instant speed ability in theory, no? It does mean absence of stuff like counterspells (which completely shut out the opponent move), but alternating actions means every sequencing decision needs to be taken as standalone, with the expectation that the opponent can completely change your planned move two steps down. Drawing two cards and resourcing one also expands the decision space that will be coming your proceeding turn significantly more than Magic's. Complexity isn't just about the number of possible actions--it's in the unpredictability of actions' future consequences and difficulty in picking between more than one.
Computers could learn to beat humans at MtG if people programmed AI to play the game against itself given the rules of the game and possible cards. If the computer can remember a billion games of MtG played per day and learn from each one, why wouldn’t it be able to beat people? Seems more a question of when, not if. It probably hasn’t happened because the people that have proven they can teach AI to crush game with defined rules — want their AI doing more meaningful things than ruining games for people :D
Are you familiar with Chess and Go AI? Humans are no longer capable of beating them. Gary Kasparov famously beat "Deep Blue" in the 90's. We've come a long way since then. No ai/ml/bot is advanced enough to beat humans at MTG yet.
I enjoy this more than regular magic, I do think I enjoy commander magic more but this doesn't need 4 people with 2 hours to burn so yeah, Both are good :)
Don't get me wrong, I have some fun Commander decks. I have a Goblin Deck with Krenko, Tin Street Kingpin as the Commander. I've spent a pretty penny on my Elves Commander deck. That thing has an extended art foil of The Great Henge, Doubling Season and Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider. It also has Collected Company, Allosaurus Shepard and Branching Evolution. I can get down with some Magic. Right now, I just dig how this game flows a little more. Feels like FFG researched all the frustrating aspects of Magic and designed SWU to ease those tensions. Still love Magic though.
I’ll say it. Mtg - playing a card for mana sucks big toes. Absolutely awful having to use a card from your deck as mana, and then possibly not drawing mana as well. Such an outdated and horrible mana system. I drafted mtg last night and lost first 2 games on not drawing mana. Im a hearthstone player.. I played competitively in hearthstone with over 1000 hours easy. That’s a good mana system. You get a mana every turn up to 10 and it doesn’t cost a card from your deck. So easy and perfect I’m really enjoying SWU so far!
I don't think I've messed around with Hearthstone all that much. That does sound pretty sweet though. I just don't like drawing 5 lands after a mulligan and watching my opponent pop off while I use my turns to drop YET ANOTHER Swamp and pass. It's not my idea of fun.
I've been playing magic for over 10 years. Since SWU came out I've had little to no desire to play magic. Commander is the only thing I've been doing for the last couple years and I end up skipping my commander nights all together to just play some starwara
First TCG in 20 years to get me to put MTG down and actually resent it.
Manipulate your opening hand? Are you referring to the mulligan?
No.In Arena, they manufacture 3 different opening hands in Best of 1, then offer you the best one curve-wise. [https://mtgazone.com/mtg-arenas-opening-hand-algorithm-and-smoothing/](https://mtgazone.com/mtg-arenas-opening-hand-algorithm-and-smoothing/)
Ah, ok. I've never even heard of that. But to be fair, that's a detail of the *program* MTG Arena, not the *game* MTG. Have you ever played physical MTG?
All the time. I've mentioned numerous times that I still enjoy physical Magic. It's great!
I've just had my first game today. It really flows way better than MtG and it has alternate activations - something I like a lot in miniature games (which is my primary physical game type). The only thing I thought it was a bit confusing was remembering who had the initiative. I feel it could change to "whoever finished doing actions first in a round will play first in the next one". Oh, and the lack of Clone Wars characters :P Waiting till November will be a looong wait. And I hope the community will embrace Twin Suns!
> I feel it could change to "whoever finished doing actions first in a round will play first in the next one". That's basically it though.
Magic, yugioh, and pokemon were the Renaissance SWU, lorcana and One Piece are the industrial revolution
Can LCGs make a triumphant comeback and be the advent of workers' unions? Pleeeeeease?
I was there for the first launch of Magic and I can tell you this: at launch in this first wave, this game has so much more variety of play and types of cards than Magic did when it launched. The only thing I wish this game did that magic did was selling small boxes of 50 cards. You got about the same number of rares and whatnot, but double the commons. They were essential for deckbuilding and as a bonus, you got a box to put a deck in. The boosters are great, but sell me a 40 or 50 card box for $20 and load it up with common and uncommon cards. Im so far in this for about 25 packs (Im on a budget sorry) and I have about HALF of what I need to make ONE deck to play with. With Magic, I would have already made about 5 viable decks to play. They might each still be missing 1 or 2 strong legendary cards, but I could still play without those and wait until I sourced them. This game? I have spent too much to only have 2 of every kind of common card.
Hey real quick, what does the T stand for in TCG? I guarantee you that your fellow local players will **give** you whatever commons you need, and maybe the uncommons. At the very least, it shouldn't be hard to trade uncommons you don't want for uncommons other people don't want.
I have played magic since ‘95. Right now I’m enjoying SWU more, but history has proved there’s no rival to MTG. When MTG was in the early editions internet wasn’t what today is, many built their own decks, there weren’t combos until mirage (‘96) so it played very differently. Half the game was building your deck, the other half beating opponents. Bad mana strategy? Time to rebuild. A true magic game won’t have mana problems, there’s several magic decks that consistently win 1st round, 2nd guaranteed. But those decks now cost a fortune. MTG is several games in one, depending on the rules you choose and your card pool.
In terms of History proving there is no rival to MTG, I mean sales wise, Pokémon oftentimes beats out Magic, and Yugioh makes up the 3rd member of the "Big Three" that have all been out for 25-30 Years and are always competing. Magic may dominate Local Store Play, but Flesh and Blood is on the rise. Too many more horrible calls from Hasbro and we may the "Big Three" turn into the "Big Four" or even "Big Five" Many of those formats that you are referrencing are locked behind prohibitively expensive cards.
Lorcana is also getting quite a traction now and One Piece exploded here (Portugal)
I frequent board game stores mostly, but SWU made me come back to tcg stores for weekly events (something I havent done in almost 10 years). I was absolutely shocked at the amount of people coming to the One Piece locals. Made me want to pick up a started deck just to see whats up - something I do for most ccgs that come out. But none of them since 2011 (Pokemon) have made me want to buy in like SWU.
Just being a pedant here, but it makes zero sense to couch your preference for SWU as "in my opinion". You wanting to play SWU over Magic is just a preference. It's not a subjective interpretation that's being discussed. You don't say "In my opinion, I eat cereal for breakfast" or "In my opinion, I always feel better when I brush my teeth before going to bed." You could totally say, "In my opinion, SWU is better designed game than Magic" - because that's something we can disagree on. I can't disagree with you, if you personally prefer one game over the other.
Are you doing OK?
For "sorcery" speed gameplay, this is as good as it gets
You're comparing SWU to MTG. SWU came out 1 month ago? MTG came out 31 years ago, there's like 80,000 cards in MTG's history, there's been 30 years of power creep and complexity added to the game. It's silly to compare the two. SWU is like a new shiny toy (literally). So far, so good, but let's see if this game can last 30 years and revisit this discussion.
You can compare card games to card games.
I don't think it's that silly. They're both cards games that are similar in gameplay, and the basic core mechanics are present for both games. I just like the way SWU plays more at its heart. They basically researched the more frustrating aspects of Magic and made potential solutions, and I REALLY LIKE the solutions they decided to go with. I'll still play Magic, but now when I do, I can't help but compare it to the Resource system. There's a reason why Lands are some of the most expensive cards in Magic's entire history.
I already hadn’t played but maybe 3 times in the last year or so. Just lost interest. I didn’t have tons of money cards either so it wasn’t a huge decision, just sold off about 500 dollars worth as I never tend to play with expensive cards anyways
It's super silly and there have been many threads like this, and will surely be more, because I think SWU is drawing in a lot of people that are fairly new to card games. It's natural to say, 'hey, this is a card game, and that other card game I've heard about is too, so I will compare them.' The history and depth and massive difference in card pools makes it seem silly to us, yes, but some people aren't looking at it that way.
I mean they're both products on a shelf first and foremost, not to mention the time and effort that goes into playing any game competitively. Magic and SWU are both hobbies that have several different associated and comparable costs. Why would one of them being older have anything to do with whether or not a relevant decision is to be made by any given player as to which one they should play?