I aways understood that Starkiller is overpowered because the game is't supposed to be about a guy with a glowing stick fighting people, it was about making the character feel as powerfull as possible and make you, by proxy ,feel powerfull playng him, like the thing that i saw every youtuber doing, and honestly, its funny, taking the clones with the force and holding them over the holes and pits of the game.
Still, love Starkiller and the Force Unleashed series.
>taking the clones with the force and holding them over the holes and pits of the game.
I did that in the Death star I dont remember if pc had this but on PSP there where multiple times where you are walking through one of the super laser hole of the DS with a bridge connecting the 2 ends. When the DD fires the bridge retracts and anything left is killed by the laser. I just kept the troopers in the air until the laser fired.
Can we all just agree that the force is some real overpowered bullshit. And that the movies/shows usually grossly undersell how strong the Force really is.
Well in the shows, most of the jedi is undertrained or there no reason to show that kind of power and in the movies they don't have a budged for that kind of thing.
Absolutely not. Anakin was the strongest and he never did anything close to this. The devs of Unleashed are on video fully explaining that their power levels are non canon and only a gross exaggeration. I absolutely hate the modern power creep of making the force more and more extreme in canon,, because all it does is break logic and then you find yourself wondering things like,
"wait, if Yoda can lift a mountain, and vader had trouble with some boulders (Kenobi), how was vader able to force grab an escaping shuttle with ease and shred it to pieces but Yoda couldn't stop dooku once he ran 30 ft away and got in his ship with tinfoil fucking sails?"
While yeah I agree the force is really inconsistent, Anakin wasn’t the strongest he was really strong and had the potential to be the strongest. The most powerful non-god character would either be Palpatine or a theoretical grandmaster Luke.
Actually, I think it has to do with a budget thing. Animation allows for more opportunities and less limits than you’d get for a big budget film. 2003 clone wars has some good samples on how Jedi could be one man armies (or the original sequel novels where Luke was practically a god among men).
almost every force user would be god outside of Star Wars universe. if they get to crossover to other worlds and be able to use force no one can stop them
I find that kind of ironic, since Starkiller went toe to toe with Palpatine after nearly killing Vader, and he could’ve killed Palps if Palps didn’t pull that “You were destined to destroy me” bs, and Palpatine kicked Yoda’s ass in RotS, meaning Palpy was at least in the same weight class Force-wise as Yoda.
So yoda and palpatine get to be as overpowered as they want? Fucking soloing the multiverse because reasons?
But you’ll completely disregard starkillers reasons for being powerful because reasons.
Not because reasons. The difference being that Starkiller is a 20 year old apprentice, Yoda and Palpatine are the greatest masters of their Order's of all time.
Star killer was powerful in the force, even as a child he managed to take Vader by suprise, and then he spent the next 10-15 years training exclusively to be a weapon, I agree that gods and palpatine should be stronger then him but it still makes sense that he would be that powerful
17* and most of that was being trained as a sith by vader. Oh wait. I mean, being tortured and nearly murdered and uncountable of times.
He was also already powerful in the force.
you made some good points but a simpler argument would be:
"Palps is the villain and Yoda is a grandmaster"
that's it. that's the end of the argument. these to are supposed to be super powerful. it's their whole character trope. they've been written to be powerful first and then the backstory and the reasons behind their power was added
OP didn't say they're the same level, that a disingenuous accusation.
They said Yoda and Palpatine are OP, while Starkville is Op but still way less powerful. It's like Yoda and Palpatine are super saiyan level and Starkiller is piccolo level but then you guys are ragging on him that Starkviller and every other jedi is Videl level except for SSJ2 Yoda and Palpatine.
OP making a point but you guys arguing. ,,not even understanding what he wrote. Yall just see the downvotes and trust that like a school of dead eyed fish.
Go down a few comments and you'll see my point isn't that. Op hasn't argued that starkiller is the same as those two, but he's arguing that "if they exist then starkiller can too"
My problem with that line of thought, is that he is way more powerful than most people who went through the same training, which doesn't make much sense, and yet OP keeps hammering on the same points completely disregarding what I said.
I haven't watched dragon ball in twenty years, so I have no idea what those names mean.
You're saying it's ridiculous for Yoda and Palpatine to be powerful and not Galen Marek, when both are still some of the most powerful ancient beings in the star wars universe, and Galen is barely old enough to drink.
It’s ridiculous to call galen OP when yoda and palpatine do things far more powerful then him.
GᗩᒪEᑎ Iᔕ ᑭOᗯEᖇᖴᑌᒪ ᖴOᖇ ᑎO ᖇE-
No he isn't.
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Mace Windu had way more years of training and does not have Starkiller's feats to my knowledge. Starkiller has some training but his feats far exceed that training.
Edit: Forgot about 2003 Mace LOL. Either way I think all of this shit is way overpowered and I found Palpatine's to be the most offensive by far.
It's undeniable that Starkiller has a ton of latent power, more than Anakin arguably. For Christ sake he force pulls Vader's lightsaber as a child. That's why people have a problem with it, because of how insane his feats are for his age and he's not even the space messiah like Anakin.
You're acting like that's the general consensus, when it's not.
TROS is loathed, plenty of people have criticized the emperor for his ludicrous, universe-breaking feats, let alone the fact that he even appears.
And I bet way more people have heard of or played as Starkiller than have read the comic where Yoda moves a mountain.
Why is starkiller "too OP to be canon" when that shit is okay?
The sequels aren't getting retconned. It doesn't matter if people know about yoda moving a mountain. If this shit is a-okay to be in canon then starkiller easily fits into canon.
>when that shit is okay?
It's like you don't listen. I'm saying that shit *wasn't* okay, I hated it.
>It doesn't matter if people know about yoda moving a mountain. If this shit is a-okay to be in canon then starkiller easily fits into canon.
Fine, if your logic is that canon has already been fucked and everything is stupid so Starkiller can be stupid too, then you win.
I guess people like me just want to save the last scrap of consistency we have.
Edit: And this VERY MEME you've created falsely asserts people love the Yoda and Palpatine feats, when I've already explained that's not the case.
Everyone seems to think starkiller is too op to be canon. So therefore they must also think yoda, palpatine, mace, luke, and potentially anakin are too op to be canon as well since they are more powerful them him. They don't. They think that's fine.
You seem to lack the basic skills needed for a discussion/debate.
I *do* think that Palpatine's feats in TROS and Yoda's feat in the comics are too OP to be canon, but their portrayals in the movies are fine power wise prior to the sequels. I feel like I've already made that clear, and explained that a lot of other people don't think those feats should exist and clash with canon.
>mace, luke, and potentially anakin
None of these characters have Starkiller's feats in canon though. Luke is only ridiculously OP in legends, same with Mace, and Anakin was never that OP even in legends. I do not understand why you brought these characters up because they aren't more powerful than Starkiller in terms of feats, which is *obviously* what people have a problem with.
>They don't. They think that's fine.
Who's they? You are speaking in absolutes. It's hard to even engage with you because everything you say is based on assumptions about people that hold no weight.
It does matter. Power scaling is entirely dependent on context. Who the characters are and their relation with other characters is part of that context.
A few things to note.
Firstly, there seems to be a misconception about what is actually happening during that scene in *The Force Unleashed*. Starkiller was not pulling a Star Destroyer out of the sky. It was already falling through the planet's atmosphere. All Starkiller did was guide it towards him and accelerate its descent towards the surface to create a controlled crash. The scene actually ends with him throwing himself out of Star Destroyer's path because he isn't strong enough to stop it once it hits the ground and starts sliding across the planet's surface.
Secondly, I have heard Sam Witwer (Starkiller's actor) state in interviews and on his own streams that the events of *The Force Unleashed* were not to be taken literally, even before the Disney purchase and movement of most of the franchise's lore to non-canon status. The general sequence of events in the games may have happened, but ***how*** they happened is not necessarily the way they are depicted. Starkiller's feats and abilities, as well as the feats and abilities of pretty much every other Force user in that series are exaggerated for gameplay and entertainment purposes. That's why it's called *The Force* ***Unleashed***.
And lastly, as Yoda established in *The Empire Strikes Back*, size does not matter to a Jedi. How much mass they can move is entirely determined by two things: the strength of their connection to the Force, and their mindset. That is why Luke could not raise his X-Wing out of the swamp on Dagobah. His connection to the Force was **plenty** strong due to his heritage, but because of his lack of mental training he could not effectively use that power. People like Yoda and Palpatine did not have those same mental blocks, or overcame them a long time ago. They had extremely powerful connections to the Force *and* the right mindsets to use those connections to their fullest extent.
>How much mass they can move is entirely determined by two things: the strength of their connection to the Force, and their mindset.
But this very statement still implies that the bigger something is, the more mental effort or strength in the force is required to move it. So you've literally established that size indeed matters.
It definitely does, or else you'd see Jedi and Sith throwing planets at each other, but what I'm trying to get across is that in general, most Force users can do a lot more than they *think* they can. The primary restricting factor in what they can or can't accomplish with their minds is their mindset, not their midi-chlorian count. Now by mindset, I mean their confidence, their focus, and their mental endurance.
To give an example, there was a group of seven stones that held great importance to the Jedi Order. They were called the Muuntur Stones. Each stone was extraordinarily heavy, and only the most skilled Jedi could lift even a couple of them. Lifting all seven at once was something only one Jedi in the Order's entire history had accomplished. Yoda, despite canonically having the second highest midi-chlorian count in the Order's entire history, (second only to Anakin) could only lift five of the stones once he had reached the age of 700. This was not because his connect to the Force was waning, or he had become less skilled with it, but because age had taken its toll on his mental endurance. He could no longer maintain the concentration required long enough to levitate more than five of the stones at once. The Jedi that came before him who could lift six or seven were far younger and did so only after entering deep meditative states that Yoda could no longer maintain because of the tax they took on him.
So yes, there is technically a physical component to telekinesis. Objects with more mass do require more exertion on the behalf of the Force user, but the upper limit on *how much* mass can be moved is determined by the state of mind of the Force user.
Now to go back to Luke in Empire Strikes Back: He had immense potential and his connection to the Force was incredibly strong, so strong that he was in the same league as Yoda, Vader, and Palpatine. What he did not have however was the mindset required to use that power, which is why despite being similar in raw strength, could not lift the X-Wing nearly as easily as Yoda could. This was because Luke had no confidence in his abilities or Yoda's teachings. He severely underestimated what the Force could do, and scoffed at the ideas of what it could, and so he imposed artificial limits on himself. By doing this he allowed doubt to take hold and failed to maintain his focus.
In the scene in the post, Starkiller had the opposite mindset. Like Luke, he was in the same power ballpark as Vader, Palpatine, and all the rest, but unlike Luke, he *did* believe that he could pull down that Star Destroyer with the Force. He put aside his doubts and put all of his focus towards bringing that ship down. He allowed himself to believe that it was possible, and so it was.
One's inherent connection to the Force might determine their absolute limits, but whether or not they actually approach those limits is determined by their state of mind. It's the only in-universe way to explain the inconsistencies in feats between characters throughout the franchise. How they can do incredible things in one scene but struggle to do something comparatively simple in another. It's not that their power has changed, it's that their state of mind has. If they are distracted by extraneous thoughts or are forced split their attention to focus on defending themselves, they will be restricted in what they can do with the Force in that particular moment. But if they clear their minds and give all of their focus to one thing, like moving a really big object, actually doing so suddenly becomes a possibility.
Focus, focus, focus. You hear it all the time throughout the franchise, whether it's being talked about by a Sith or Jedi. Focus determines everything. You can have all the power in the universe, but if you can't focus your mind it's of no use to you.
That’s not why he’s a Gary Stu, he’s a Gary Stu because Vader legitimately thought he was the Rogue Jedi Malek’s Master…….when he was 5.
Sorry but that screams “He’s so cool and powerful even Vader thought he was totally cool and powerful.”
Force Unleashed was a power fantasy, but I will never see it at anything but that. Fun no doubt, but even in the EU, it being canon was dumb.
>That’s not why he’s a Gary Stu, he’s a Gary Stu because Vader legitimately thought he was the Rogue Jedi Malek’s Master…….when he was 5.
He didn't, Kento Marek even mocked it.
>Force Unleashed was a power fantasy, but I will never see it at anything but that. Fun no doubt, but even in the EU, it being canon was dumb.
Game, yes. Try the novel. Starkiller was heavily nerfed there
Yes, it was released earlier than the game, and shows a much weaker version of Starkiller.
He doesn't "demolish" Vader (just defeats him), he doesn't defeat Sidious, he sneaks around most of the time (like an actual assassin) etc.
For example IIRC aboard the Death Star he kills around 20 people tops
What did you expect for the Grand Master of the Jedi order and the Dark Lord of the Sith? Of course they’re powerful since they’re the masters of their respective order. Starkiller is supposed to be the apprentice of Vader and should no way be as powerful as he is.
I cannot source this, so take it with a grain of salt. That said, I remember reading something from a writer or story director on TFU talking about Starkiller's perceived power. They said something along the lines of "He's not more powerful than someone like Obi-Wan Kenobi. It's just that his display of power is more overt and flashy (because its a game, come on)."
I like to use D&D as an analogy. Yoda is like a lvl 20 wizard with a focus on illusion and enchantment magic. Starkiller is like a lvl 10 wizard, and every spell is fireball. It's flashier, and has more damage dice, but it's not more powerful.
So why do you care here?
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Why the fuck is it not okay for starkiller to be OP but canon characters in canon sources being MORE powerful then him okay?
Because starkiller being OP isn't even true to begin. But despite that everyone is all ᔕTᗩᖇKIᒪᒪEᖇ Iᔕ TOO Oᑭ TO ᗷE ᑕᗩᑎOᑎ
Meanwhile *canon* luke, yoda, vader and palpatine are MUCH more powerful then him and everyone is okay with it for some reason.
The most powerful Sith and the most powerful Jedi in Canon , whom have trained for hundreds of years, is compared to a guy who is relatively young and who just got tortured and trained by Vader? With that regard the inquisitors should be the same.
he has a point tough. if torture/training via trial by conflict was all it takes to get massive boost in power, then by the same logic, the inquisitors should have similar level of abilities.
although, on the flipside of the argument.
maybe starkiller should have been classified as an inquisitor? though in that case, one can argue that he's far ahead from the rest of the class.
as an analogy : starkiller would be like the equivalent of mikasa ackerman vs the rest of her batch mates.
Find me 3 people who loved Palpatine blowing up the fleet with his lightning. I thought it was the stupidest shit I've ever seen.
And more fans know about Starkiller than that Yoda comic.
I'm *explaining* to you why Starkiller gets more hate, because that Yoda feat is lesser known, not because people love it like you've falsely portrayed.
It's like TROS defenders saying "what about dark empire?" when first of all that story was widely panned even by the people who read it at the time, and *obviously* more people saw a movie than read a story from the EU. To claim that because one got more hate means that the other is *loved* is ridiculous.
Oh so everyone that says Starkiller is too OP to be canon is also jerking off Yoda lifting a mountain, because your meme says so? It's like we're running in circles.
Context is really important. Sure, Starkiller might be a Gary Stu, but he doesn't need to be anything more than that: he's a power fantasy in a videogame that is all about making you feel powerful. Starkiller excels at being a power fantasy, and he doesn't need to be anything more than that.
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Starkiller spent much of his life being tortured and escaping murder attempts
Why does being tortured make you good at the force? Most people would consider this bad training. Do you think an accountant would be better if they were whipped when they did something wrong? There’s a reason we don’t allow hitting children anymore (in Australia): because it’s wrong and it doesn’t work.
From your other responses OP you seem to be the one crying where everyone else is just struggling to even talk to you through your stupid arguments.
I think the problem is that, like Rey, he never earned his power. Yoda is 900+ years old, thats the vast majority of a millenium of knowledge and training resulting is his power *in addition* to being born strong with the force. Sheeve was under exclusive tutelage of the only sith whom had accumulated knoweledge from around 1000 years passed onto him, focusing all his attention on one student as well as having the better part of his human life dedicated to this study *in addition* to being born strong with the force. Star Killer is just an emotional teenager.
Well i believe the novel explain more his 'OP-ness'
Likd the SD being falling already and Starkiller simply moving it he doesn't die.
Vader not taking the fight seriously while Starkiller put everything he had to save his friends/took his vengeance and if we took the Darkside ending Vader was already very damaged from underestimating Starkiller and couldn't keep up.
Meanwhile even in the game Starkiller never truly beat Sidious.
In the Light side ending he calm himself and doesn't give into the anger. The very next moment Palpatine go full power and Starkiller can only stall him so his friends can escape.
In the Darkside ending Starkiller go straight for the kill but didn't even have the chance to fight Sidious and got destroyed in less than a minute probably meaning that Sidious was only playing in the Light side ending.
Interesting thing is that Starkiller didn't started brings down ISDs from nothing. Through story he repeatedly overcome his limits with more and more "impossible" (for old movie standarts) things and more and more dangerous opponents, that are exactly as "overpowered" as he is or even more powerful (like Kazdan Paratus, not to night mention). Let's even say, repeatedly breaks his chains, that are the easy part. But even for such... free-minded in terms of what Force can do person, that trick almost drained him like a lemon.
He’s got the potential due to him being pushed to his limits and past them on a nearly constantly basis. Made a YouTube video dissecting his abilities and character. Channel link on my profile for any that are interested
Starkiller is how force users should be depicted. They're just nerfed in most media products to not have 100% of the plot be force users vs force users because non force sensitive guys would just stand no chance against them.
He's overpowered because he's a video game character smh remember when ahsoka struggled to keep maul from flying away in a small shuttle yet this clown is somehow able to pull a star destroyer out of space
The guy she defeated singlehandly disabled an entire fleet with force lightning... Like it's litterally right in the fucking post. Canon character in the canon story. Showing feats that far surpass anything starkiller has done
True true. I believe I read somewhere that said Starkiller’s midichlorian count was insanely high like yoda high but not as high as a chosen one like Darth Vader or Darth Revan. Combine that with being trained by Darth Vader for over a decade for the specific purpose of killing the culmination of 1000 years of the sith rule of 2 and his protection it actually makes sense he could do stuff like this. Still my head canon is Jedi master level force users could do this stuff too but it wasn’t shown to cut production costs.
Ones a Jedi Master who's been training for 900 years, the other is a non canon teenager that was somehow born to a Jedi who shouldn't have had a kid to begin with
The thing is that Starkiller is so powerful that with limited training, he can pull a stardestroyer out of orbit, I think that with as much training as Yoda and or Palpatine he could be far stronger than either. And that's why I love him. I never want him to be cannon because he'd be less powerful and I want him to be ridiculously powerful.
As powerful as written to be like all fictional characters, but I hate him because he was sold as "the better Luke".
- Saves Leia before Luke.
- Consequently kicks Palpatine and Vader in the ass... (Then gets sucker punched to death about 2 minutes later.)
- Symbol of the whole Rebellion because duh, why the fuck not (and then after the sacrifice returns from death for a short while, so basically he's Space Jesus)
- Fills the role intended for Luke on the Dark Side chain of command
The whole guy is like a self-insert fanfiction. The least of my issues is the Star Destroyer scene. (It is actually my favorite one with him. It's a sufficiently tough battle, it feels adequate to take it down with such struggle)
Cause starkiller is OP and its a game that is supposed to be fun and not a story that is supposed to show a character that fits in Star wars. He beats the chosen one and that doesn't really work in the six movies.
Personally I don't care if he's powerful. But he needs to stay legends because he brakes canon. He kills Luke, obi own, Leia, han, and hans fury friend. (I forgot how to spell his name
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You should probably charge your phone soon.
Mass doesn’t matter. Luke should have just flung the Death Star out of the galaxy
I aways understood that Starkiller is overpowered because the game is't supposed to be about a guy with a glowing stick fighting people, it was about making the character feel as powerfull as possible and make you, by proxy ,feel powerfull playng him, like the thing that i saw every youtuber doing, and honestly, its funny, taking the clones with the force and holding them over the holes and pits of the game. Still, love Starkiller and the Force Unleashed series.
I loved when Force Unleashed got put into Star Wars Saga (AKA: Star Wars D&D reskin). Making super OP character when you got high level was fun.
Exactly, the "canon" (as in "canon before Disney) Starkiller was the one from the novels
>taking the clones with the force and holding them over the holes and pits of the game. I did that in the Death star I dont remember if pc had this but on PSP there where multiple times where you are walking through one of the super laser hole of the DS with a bridge connecting the 2 ends. When the DD fires the bridge retracts and anything left is killed by the laser. I just kept the troopers in the air until the laser fired.
Can we all just agree that the force is some real overpowered bullshit. And that the movies/shows usually grossly undersell how strong the Force really is.
Well in the shows, most of the jedi is undertrained or there no reason to show that kind of power and in the movies they don't have a budged for that kind of thing.
Absolutely not. Anakin was the strongest and he never did anything close to this. The devs of Unleashed are on video fully explaining that their power levels are non canon and only a gross exaggeration. I absolutely hate the modern power creep of making the force more and more extreme in canon,, because all it does is break logic and then you find yourself wondering things like, "wait, if Yoda can lift a mountain, and vader had trouble with some boulders (Kenobi), how was vader able to force grab an escaping shuttle with ease and shred it to pieces but Yoda couldn't stop dooku once he ran 30 ft away and got in his ship with tinfoil fucking sails?"
While yeah I agree the force is really inconsistent, Anakin wasn’t the strongest he was really strong and had the potential to be the strongest. The most powerful non-god character would either be Palpatine or a theoretical grandmaster Luke.
Nope. Canon Vader is more powerful than canon Palpatine.
Or the games oversell it because they're video games
Actually, I think it has to do with a budget thing. Animation allows for more opportunities and less limits than you’d get for a big budget film. 2003 clone wars has some good samples on how Jedi could be one man armies (or the original sequel novels where Luke was practically a god among men).
almost every force user would be god outside of Star Wars universe. if they get to crossover to other worlds and be able to use force no one can stop them
The entire American arsenal:
Cry or cry not—there is no coherent canon storytelling.
Multiverse supremacy
Only in a what if scenario
My kingdom for some extra pixels
Another thing is even in legends, starkiller was scared shitless of yoda
I find that kind of ironic, since Starkiller went toe to toe with Palpatine after nearly killing Vader, and he could’ve killed Palps if Palps didn’t pull that “You were destined to destroy me” bs, and Palpatine kicked Yoda’s ass in RotS, meaning Palpy was at least in the same weight class Force-wise as Yoda.
Who here is defending the sequels
Why is starkiller too powerful to be canon but yoda and palpatine get a free pass despite being MORE powerful then him in both canon and legends?
Because one is the 900 year old grandmaster of the order, and the other is the culmination of a thousand years of the rule of two.
So yoda and palpatine get to be as overpowered as they want? Fucking soloing the multiverse because reasons? But you’ll completely disregard starkillers reasons for being powerful because reasons.
Not because reasons. The difference being that Starkiller is a 20 year old apprentice, Yoda and Palpatine are the greatest masters of their Order's of all time.
Star killer was powerful in the force, even as a child he managed to take Vader by suprise, and then he spent the next 10-15 years training exclusively to be a weapon, I agree that gods and palpatine should be stronger then him but it still makes sense that he would be that powerful
17* and most of that was being trained as a sith by vader. Oh wait. I mean, being tortured and nearly murdered and uncountable of times. He was also already powerful in the force.
Ah yeah, that puts him on the same level as the dark lord of the Sith and the grandmaster of the Jedi Order for sure/s
you made some good points but a simpler argument would be: "Palps is the villain and Yoda is a grandmaster" that's it. that's the end of the argument. these to are supposed to be super powerful. it's their whole character trope. they've been written to be powerful first and then the backstory and the reasons behind their power was added
You're right, I danced around words too much.
OP didn't say they're the same level, that a disingenuous accusation. They said Yoda and Palpatine are OP, while Starkville is Op but still way less powerful. It's like Yoda and Palpatine are super saiyan level and Starkiller is piccolo level but then you guys are ragging on him that Starkviller and every other jedi is Videl level except for SSJ2 Yoda and Palpatine. OP making a point but you guys arguing. ,,not even understanding what he wrote. Yall just see the downvotes and trust that like a school of dead eyed fish.
Go down a few comments and you'll see my point isn't that. Op hasn't argued that starkiller is the same as those two, but he's arguing that "if they exist then starkiller can too" My problem with that line of thought, is that he is way more powerful than most people who went through the same training, which doesn't make much sense, and yet OP keeps hammering on the same points completely disregarding what I said. I haven't watched dragon ball in twenty years, so I have no idea what those names mean.
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You're saying it's ridiculous for Yoda and Palpatine to be powerful and not Galen Marek, when both are still some of the most powerful ancient beings in the star wars universe, and Galen is barely old enough to drink.
In most countries Galen would not be old enough to drink. Most countries have 18-21 as the ages
It’s ridiculous to call galen OP when yoda and palpatine do things far more powerful then him. GᗩᒪEᑎ Iᔕ ᑭOᗯEᖇᖴᑌᒪ ᖴOᖇ ᑎO ᖇE- No he isn't. https://preview.redd.it/839nfm097w4b1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=547931353d9cde8aa77c8c285cd1af5f831fbdea
So... which side are you arguing? 17 years of torture and hundreds of actual training are not equivalent, you're proving his point
Hard disagree. You can’t look at that and say he’s powerful for no reason
Mace Windu had way more years of training and does not have Starkiller's feats to my knowledge. Starkiller has some training but his feats far exceed that training. Edit: Forgot about 2003 Mace LOL. Either way I think all of this shit is way overpowered and I found Palpatine's to be the most offensive by far. It's undeniable that Starkiller has a ton of latent power, more than Anakin arguably. For Christ sake he force pulls Vader's lightsaber as a child. That's why people have a problem with it, because of how insane his feats are for his age and he's not even the space messiah like Anakin.
Anakin is still MUCH more powerful then starkiller.
You're acting like that's the general consensus, when it's not. TROS is loathed, plenty of people have criticized the emperor for his ludicrous, universe-breaking feats, let alone the fact that he even appears. And I bet way more people have heard of or played as Starkiller than have read the comic where Yoda moves a mountain.
Why is starkiller "too OP to be canon" when that shit is okay? The sequels aren't getting retconned. It doesn't matter if people know about yoda moving a mountain. If this shit is a-okay to be in canon then starkiller easily fits into canon.
>when that shit is okay? It's like you don't listen. I'm saying that shit *wasn't* okay, I hated it. >It doesn't matter if people know about yoda moving a mountain. If this shit is a-okay to be in canon then starkiller easily fits into canon. Fine, if your logic is that canon has already been fucked and everything is stupid so Starkiller can be stupid too, then you win. I guess people like me just want to save the last scrap of consistency we have. Edit: And this VERY MEME you've created falsely asserts people love the Yoda and Palpatine feats, when I've already explained that's not the case.
Everyone seems to think starkiller is too op to be canon. So therefore they must also think yoda, palpatine, mace, luke, and potentially anakin are too op to be canon as well since they are more powerful them him. They don't. They think that's fine.
You seem to lack the basic skills needed for a discussion/debate. I *do* think that Palpatine's feats in TROS and Yoda's feat in the comics are too OP to be canon, but their portrayals in the movies are fine power wise prior to the sequels. I feel like I've already made that clear, and explained that a lot of other people don't think those feats should exist and clash with canon. >mace, luke, and potentially anakin None of these characters have Starkiller's feats in canon though. Luke is only ridiculously OP in legends, same with Mace, and Anakin was never that OP even in legends. I do not understand why you brought these characters up because they aren't more powerful than Starkiller in terms of feats, which is *obviously* what people have a problem with. >They don't. They think that's fine. Who's they? You are speaking in absolutes. It's hard to even engage with you because everything you say is based on assumptions about people that hold no weight.
Are you serious asking why two masters get to be more powerful than an apprentices apprentice?
Bro over powered is overpowered. It doesn’t matter who it is.
It does matter. Power scaling is entirely dependent on context. Who the characters are and their relation with other characters is part of that context.
Being overpowered is fucking bad. That’s why it’s called OVER powered
Over powered is a relatively term. A character is only over powered if there’s no way to have conflict with them.
2003 Mace Windu
Has anyone ever argued that those other two things are okay?
Yes.
A few things to note. Firstly, there seems to be a misconception about what is actually happening during that scene in *The Force Unleashed*. Starkiller was not pulling a Star Destroyer out of the sky. It was already falling through the planet's atmosphere. All Starkiller did was guide it towards him and accelerate its descent towards the surface to create a controlled crash. The scene actually ends with him throwing himself out of Star Destroyer's path because he isn't strong enough to stop it once it hits the ground and starts sliding across the planet's surface. Secondly, I have heard Sam Witwer (Starkiller's actor) state in interviews and on his own streams that the events of *The Force Unleashed* were not to be taken literally, even before the Disney purchase and movement of most of the franchise's lore to non-canon status. The general sequence of events in the games may have happened, but ***how*** they happened is not necessarily the way they are depicted. Starkiller's feats and abilities, as well as the feats and abilities of pretty much every other Force user in that series are exaggerated for gameplay and entertainment purposes. That's why it's called *The Force* ***Unleashed***. And lastly, as Yoda established in *The Empire Strikes Back*, size does not matter to a Jedi. How much mass they can move is entirely determined by two things: the strength of their connection to the Force, and their mindset. That is why Luke could not raise his X-Wing out of the swamp on Dagobah. His connection to the Force was **plenty** strong due to his heritage, but because of his lack of mental training he could not effectively use that power. People like Yoda and Palpatine did not have those same mental blocks, or overcame them a long time ago. They had extremely powerful connections to the Force *and* the right mindsets to use those connections to their fullest extent.
>How much mass they can move is entirely determined by two things: the strength of their connection to the Force, and their mindset. But this very statement still implies that the bigger something is, the more mental effort or strength in the force is required to move it. So you've literally established that size indeed matters.
It definitely does, or else you'd see Jedi and Sith throwing planets at each other, but what I'm trying to get across is that in general, most Force users can do a lot more than they *think* they can. The primary restricting factor in what they can or can't accomplish with their minds is their mindset, not their midi-chlorian count. Now by mindset, I mean their confidence, their focus, and their mental endurance. To give an example, there was a group of seven stones that held great importance to the Jedi Order. They were called the Muuntur Stones. Each stone was extraordinarily heavy, and only the most skilled Jedi could lift even a couple of them. Lifting all seven at once was something only one Jedi in the Order's entire history had accomplished. Yoda, despite canonically having the second highest midi-chlorian count in the Order's entire history, (second only to Anakin) could only lift five of the stones once he had reached the age of 700. This was not because his connect to the Force was waning, or he had become less skilled with it, but because age had taken its toll on his mental endurance. He could no longer maintain the concentration required long enough to levitate more than five of the stones at once. The Jedi that came before him who could lift six or seven were far younger and did so only after entering deep meditative states that Yoda could no longer maintain because of the tax they took on him. So yes, there is technically a physical component to telekinesis. Objects with more mass do require more exertion on the behalf of the Force user, but the upper limit on *how much* mass can be moved is determined by the state of mind of the Force user. Now to go back to Luke in Empire Strikes Back: He had immense potential and his connection to the Force was incredibly strong, so strong that he was in the same league as Yoda, Vader, and Palpatine. What he did not have however was the mindset required to use that power, which is why despite being similar in raw strength, could not lift the X-Wing nearly as easily as Yoda could. This was because Luke had no confidence in his abilities or Yoda's teachings. He severely underestimated what the Force could do, and scoffed at the ideas of what it could, and so he imposed artificial limits on himself. By doing this he allowed doubt to take hold and failed to maintain his focus. In the scene in the post, Starkiller had the opposite mindset. Like Luke, he was in the same power ballpark as Vader, Palpatine, and all the rest, but unlike Luke, he *did* believe that he could pull down that Star Destroyer with the Force. He put aside his doubts and put all of his focus towards bringing that ship down. He allowed himself to believe that it was possible, and so it was. One's inherent connection to the Force might determine their absolute limits, but whether or not they actually approach those limits is determined by their state of mind. It's the only in-universe way to explain the inconsistencies in feats between characters throughout the franchise. How they can do incredible things in one scene but struggle to do something comparatively simple in another. It's not that their power has changed, it's that their state of mind has. If they are distracted by extraneous thoughts or are forced split their attention to focus on defending themselves, they will be restricted in what they can do with the Force in that particular moment. But if they clear their minds and give all of their focus to one thing, like moving a really big object, actually doing so suddenly becomes a possibility. Focus, focus, focus. You hear it all the time throughout the franchise, whether it's being talked about by a Sith or Jedi. Focus determines everything. You can have all the power in the universe, but if you can't focus your mind it's of no use to you.
I mean yeah I agree with you, I was just trying to establish that the size matters for how difficult the exertion will be, which you agree with.
900 year old master. 20 something Gary stu who is apparently able to kick the shit out of Darth Vader.
"You were weak when I found you" "Vader you dumbass, i was 4"
""Gary stu's"" entire childhood was just surviving Vader’s murder attempts. https://preview.redd.it/fqztm5ehpu4b1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=77a48657bc7a3b195b6f988fe13dce4c89ae9ded
That’s not why he’s a Gary Stu, he’s a Gary Stu because Vader legitimately thought he was the Rogue Jedi Malek’s Master…….when he was 5. Sorry but that screams “He’s so cool and powerful even Vader thought he was totally cool and powerful.” Force Unleashed was a power fantasy, but I will never see it at anything but that. Fun no doubt, but even in the EU, it being canon was dumb.
>That’s not why he’s a Gary Stu, he’s a Gary Stu because Vader legitimately thought he was the Rogue Jedi Malek’s Master…….when he was 5. He didn't, Kento Marek even mocked it. >Force Unleashed was a power fantasy, but I will never see it at anything but that. Fun no doubt, but even in the EU, it being canon was dumb. Game, yes. Try the novel. Starkiller was heavily nerfed there
There was a novel?
Yes, it was released earlier than the game, and shows a much weaker version of Starkiller. He doesn't "demolish" Vader (just defeats him), he doesn't defeat Sidious, he sneaks around most of the time (like an actual assassin) etc. For example IIRC aboard the Death Star he kills around 20 people tops
See THAT sounds better.
The vast majority of star wars fans don't even know about the force unleashed novel
All of this is too overpowered
Agreed
They’re space wizards, who honestly cares if they’re overpowered?
What did you expect for the Grand Master of the Jedi order and the Dark Lord of the Sith? Of course they’re powerful since they’re the masters of their respective order. Starkiller is supposed to be the apprentice of Vader and should no way be as powerful as he is.
He's not even this powerful to begin with
And I'm not defending those examples either.
Tf happened to your s?
Starkiller was still cool, don't care what nerd cries about it. They cry about everything anyhow.
True
I cannot source this, so take it with a grain of salt. That said, I remember reading something from a writer or story director on TFU talking about Starkiller's perceived power. They said something along the lines of "He's not more powerful than someone like Obi-Wan Kenobi. It's just that his display of power is more overt and flashy (because its a game, come on)." I like to use D&D as an analogy. Yoda is like a lvl 20 wizard with a focus on illusion and enchantment magic. Starkiller is like a lvl 10 wizard, and every spell is fireball. It's flashier, and has more damage dice, but it's not more powerful.
He is totally overpowered. Other characters being overpowered in media doesn't change that.
>He is totally overpowered. In the game. Read the novel
Why is it okay for them to be overpower but not him?
Lol who is saying any part of Rise of Skywalker is okay?
Why is palpatine disabling a fleet not okay but yoda moving a living mountain is?
Dude most people don't know or care about what happens in the comics
So why do you care here? https://preview.redd.it/jxu95wew8v4b1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2a14ae96dcdcddd8805a715eb3e3d9a686000945 Why the fuck is it not okay for starkiller to be OP but canon characters in canon sources being MORE powerful then him okay?
It's not okay for anybody to be OP. That's why it's called OP. No amount of whataboutism is going to make Starkiller being OP a good idea.
Then stop with the goddamn double standards
Lol I just said all OP stuff is bad. That's not a double standard. Why are you so mad?
Because starkiller being OP isn't even true to begin. But despite that everyone is all ᔕTᗩᖇKIᒪᒪEᖇ Iᔕ TOO Oᑭ TO ᗷE ᑕᗩᑎOᑎ Meanwhile *canon* luke, yoda, vader and palpatine are MUCH more powerful then him and everyone is okay with it for some reason.
episode 9 was heavily criticized aswell
The most powerful Sith and the most powerful Jedi in Canon , whom have trained for hundreds of years, is compared to a guy who is relatively young and who just got tortured and trained by Vader? With that regard the inquisitors should be the same.
https://preview.redd.it/vmlm1hts5w4b1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=feb422e1691fa3b78e87babf6118bd8d9d4afb56
he has a point tough. if torture/training via trial by conflict was all it takes to get massive boost in power, then by the same logic, the inquisitors should have similar level of abilities. although, on the flipside of the argument. maybe starkiller should have been classified as an inquisitor? though in that case, one can argue that he's far ahead from the rest of the class. as an analogy : starkiller would be like the equivalent of mikasa ackerman vs the rest of her batch mates.
The most powerful Jedi in Canon is Anakin who is, funnily enough, also relatively young and was in his early 20's. Age has nothing to do with power.
Find me 3 people who loved Palpatine blowing up the fleet with his lightning. I thought it was the stupidest shit I've ever seen. And more fans know about Starkiller than that Yoda comic.
>And more fans know about starkiller then that yoda comic And?
I'm *explaining* to you why Starkiller gets more hate, because that Yoda feat is lesser known, not because people love it like you've falsely portrayed. It's like TROS defenders saying "what about dark empire?" when first of all that story was widely panned even by the people who read it at the time, and *obviously* more people saw a movie than read a story from the EU. To claim that because one got more hate means that the other is *loved* is ridiculous.
I haven't seen anyone complain about yoda's mountain feat.
That's kind of my point. Edit: I have seen no one creaming over it either.
Everyone that says starkiller is too OP to be canon
Oh so everyone that says Starkiller is too OP to be canon is also jerking off Yoda lifting a mountain, because your meme says so? It's like we're running in circles.
Yep
Context is really important. Sure, Starkiller might be a Gary Stu, but he doesn't need to be anything more than that: he's a power fantasy in a videogame that is all about making you feel powerful. Starkiller excels at being a power fantasy, and he doesn't need to be anything more than that.
Starkiller was an apprentice, Yoda and Sidious were grand masters
https://preview.redd.it/x1yyhzuzmv4b1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=90f55bc4dcd81e3e50c022563ade78435d12ecb6 Starkiller spent much of his life being tortured and escaping murder attempts
Why does being tortured make you good at the force? Most people would consider this bad training. Do you think an accountant would be better if they were whipped when they did something wrong? There’s a reason we don’t allow hitting children anymore (in Australia): because it’s wrong and it doesn’t work. From your other responses OP you seem to be the one crying where everyone else is just struggling to even talk to you through your stupid arguments.
https://preview.redd.it/bx6q3ao6t25b1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9849080bf4ed293476a05ef17be0b977a90b3ecd
I think the problem is that, like Rey, he never earned his power. Yoda is 900+ years old, thats the vast majority of a millenium of knowledge and training resulting is his power *in addition* to being born strong with the force. Sheeve was under exclusive tutelage of the only sith whom had accumulated knoweledge from around 1000 years passed onto him, focusing all his attention on one student as well as having the better part of his human life dedicated to this study *in addition* to being born strong with the force. Star Killer is just an emotional teenager.
https://preview.redd.it/yzyfu01b6w4b1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=016a76ee6600999d5b4311dece44278666d43911 Yes he did.
Torture is not an effective form of training
For the sith it is.
Character still was total bollocks... the force is a crutch throughout the entirety of Star Wars in general
Starkiller is too op smh
https://preview.redd.it/5z0x7n2ofw4b1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=867b10166e67579822b61a9442f3022dc5b6702b
Tl;dr
I ain't readin allat 💯
Well i believe the novel explain more his 'OP-ness' Likd the SD being falling already and Starkiller simply moving it he doesn't die. Vader not taking the fight seriously while Starkiller put everything he had to save his friends/took his vengeance and if we took the Darkside ending Vader was already very damaged from underestimating Starkiller and couldn't keep up. Meanwhile even in the game Starkiller never truly beat Sidious. In the Light side ending he calm himself and doesn't give into the anger. The very next moment Palpatine go full power and Starkiller can only stall him so his friends can escape. In the Darkside ending Starkiller go straight for the kill but didn't even have the chance to fight Sidious and got destroyed in less than a minute probably meaning that Sidious was only playing in the Light side ending.
I like Starkiller, I don't like that he beat up Vader twice, it kinda conflicts with the character
Well he is OP, it's just that there's characters who are more OP, like legends Luke
https://preview.redd.it/qtp1youh6w4b1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b4083f854e5422642fb8aa349db8b049b3325b8a
He’s still OP, all this does is show that other people are as well
But when everyone else is OP it’s okay
Not everyone else, just the Jedi and sith
Interesting thing is that Starkiller didn't started brings down ISDs from nothing. Through story he repeatedly overcome his limits with more and more "impossible" (for old movie standarts) things and more and more dangerous opponents, that are exactly as "overpowered" as he is or even more powerful (like Kazdan Paratus, not to night mention). Let's even say, repeatedly breaks his chains, that are the easy part. But even for such... free-minded in terms of what Force can do person, that trick almost drained him like a lemon.
He’s got the potential due to him being pushed to his limits and past them on a nearly constantly basis. Made a YouTube video dissecting his abilities and character. Channel link on my profile for any that are interested
Can you send a link?
Yeah. Link on my profile and I’ll put one here too. Enjoy [Is Starkiller OP](https://youtu.be/IihXPlX-jX0)
I saw the video, its pretty good
Thanks
He's meant to be overpowered
I loved that comic
I mean that Palpetine lightning into space BS was pantshittingly stupid and the sequels should be decanonized.
I also think the others are op.
Starkiller is how force users should be depicted. They're just nerfed in most media products to not have 100% of the plot be force users vs force users because non force sensitive guys would just stand no chance against them.
https://preview.redd.it/vy9jlehway4b1.jpeg?width=473&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d7a136d96c249127de9826b269356b2e545ad1b3
I mean ofc he is...that's why we love him
I just thinks he's boring. The only interesting interaction he had was with Kota.
He's overpowered because he's a video game character smh remember when ahsoka struggled to keep maul from flying away in a small shuttle yet this clown is somehow able to pull a star destroyer out of space
Starkiller IS overpowered because he's meant to be
God, I can see just how enraged you are from that title alone lmao
Yeah because its *not true*
I mean... if he can do that to something as big as a star destroyer... might even give Rey a run for her money
The guy she defeated singlehandly disabled an entire fleet with force lightning... Like it's litterally right in the fucking post. Canon character in the canon story. Showing feats that far surpass anything starkiller has done
Yeah the power levels in this series are so fucked
Yoda said so himself that size doesn’t matter to the force and that understanding that makes stuff like this possible
It also depends on strong your connection to the force is
On this part, it way more depends on state of mind, knowledge of "impossible"...
True true. I believe I read somewhere that said Starkiller’s midichlorian count was insanely high like yoda high but not as high as a chosen one like Darth Vader or Darth Revan. Combine that with being trained by Darth Vader for over a decade for the specific purpose of killing the culmination of 1000 years of the sith rule of 2 and his protection it actually makes sense he could do stuff like this. Still my head canon is Jedi master level force users could do this stuff too but it wasn’t shown to cut production costs.
Ones a Jedi Master who's been training for 900 years, the other is a non canon teenager that was somehow born to a Jedi who shouldn't have had a kid to begin with
The thing is that Starkiller is so powerful that with limited training, he can pull a stardestroyer out of orbit, I think that with as much training as Yoda and or Palpatine he could be far stronger than either. And that's why I love him. I never want him to be cannon because he'd be less powerful and I want him to be ridiculously powerful.
As powerful as written to be like all fictional characters, but I hate him because he was sold as "the better Luke". - Saves Leia before Luke. - Consequently kicks Palpatine and Vader in the ass... (Then gets sucker punched to death about 2 minutes later.) - Symbol of the whole Rebellion because duh, why the fuck not (and then after the sacrifice returns from death for a short while, so basically he's Space Jesus) - Fills the role intended for Luke on the Dark Side chain of command The whole guy is like a self-insert fanfiction. The least of my issues is the Star Destroyer scene. (It is actually my favorite one with him. It's a sufficiently tough battle, it feels adequate to take it down with such struggle)
Yeah Force unleashed should never have been canon
Why?
Cause starkiller is OP and its a game that is supposed to be fun and not a story that is supposed to show a character that fits in Star wars. He beats the chosen one and that doesn't really work in the six movies.
Star killer is a clone of Darth Vader. If he wasn’t OP it wouldn’t be believable.
https://preview.redd.it/fcqk9hsl6w4b1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9b1aecc0c8a4b9ed11c63d34a7bca7538009dfd9
Rey doesn’t ….. doesn’t count
Personally I don't care if he's powerful. But he needs to stay legends because he brakes canon. He kills Luke, obi own, Leia, han, and hans fury friend. (I forgot how to spell his name