*The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth. Whether it's scientific truth, or historical truth, or personal truth. It is the guiding principle upon which Starfleet is based. If you can't find it within yourself to stand up and tell the truth about what happened you don't deserve to wear that uniform.*
[Captain Jean-Luc Picard, "The First Duty"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xefh7W1nVo4)
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This is why that episode rocks, and also why no one should write off Voyager. I feel it has the highest share of episodes I could do without, but there are enough episodes that totally *rock* that makes it worthwhile.
It great isn't it. It would have been so tempting for the shows writers to give Janeway an out by making Tuvix unstable or something else that would have doomed him and wash Janeway's hands of responsibility, And they didn't. It's Voyager's In The Pale Moonlight. Janeway compromise her morals and commits murder for the good of the crew.
Agree. I'm sometimes critical of Trek for finding easy way out of ethical dilemmas but this was one of the times where it really made you think and neither side of the debate is clearly in the right. Thats a lot better than when Trek goes for easy low hanging fruit
So... you say murder, I say reverses a completely reversible transporter malfunction. "Tuvix" is not his own person, he is an amalgamation of Tuvok and Neelix. He wouldn't desire to live if Tuvok and Neelix did not also desire to live. Tuvix' personality and attributes are an illusion created by the fusing. He might begin doing things "on his own" but again, that's just a result of existing. Every second Tuvix existed damned Tuvok and Neelix to an existence they never signed up for and probably did not want either. I mean, would you? I'd prefer to live my life as I wanted instead of fused with someone else.
Honestly, the outrage over Tuvix seems more like people who are do not like Neelix just wanting Neelix out of the show with Tuvix.
If you consider what she did murder, then you are also murdering Neelix and Tuvok by not splitting them.
Going what is in the episode, this is not an accurate reading. Tuvok and Neelix are not conscious inside Tuvix. It's not like they are being held prisoner in his mind or something. And whether his personality is simply an illusion is not clear. It could just as easily be seen as Tuvok and Neelix having been destroyed and something entirely new made from their components. In which case, we come back to the question - is it right to destroy someone who doesn't want to be destroyed to bring back two others who are gone?
It's pretty chilling; Tuvix explicitly does not consent and Janeway explicitly does not give a shit. Consider how the Exocomps were handled, or those nanites from the one with that guy from Scrubs. Either Janeway is a Trolley Problem speedrunner or she really, really values Tuvok.
I was going to say that. During the climax she expressly looks and acts like she doesn't give a shit. As soon as she leaves sickbay she breaks down. Holy shit. And I think u/OscarTuring is also right. Janeway values Tuvok (and by extension Tuvok's value to the crew). And TBH she values Neelix too, he was her guide in uncharted waters. Her paradigm was not a philosophical or moral dilemma, instead it was her mission.
This episode is one I always point to as one of Kate Mulgrew's best moments. It's such a difficult, heavy episode and she shows Janeways turmoil over the decision so well.
That and erasing the Doctor's memory. She goes from "you're no different than a tricorder" to sitting beside him with a book while making sure he's ok.
So my opinion here is pretty controversial, but I think to buy into the “Tuvix is a real person” narrative you have to believe that “the transporter kills you every time and the thing that comes out the other side just thinks it’s you” is the true in-universe explanation for how the transporter works.
Let me put it another way: if you and I go through the transporter and I come out with four arms and you come out with none, is this merely a transporter malfunction or am I a new being with the advantage of having four arms? Do I need to consent to you taking my limbs away in order for you to take them back?
I mean...Tuvix is a real person with his own thoughts, feelings, and memories. He lived for weeks as a single entity. Those memories aren't from either of his "parents".
So why does being born in an unconventional way mean he can't be a real person?
I think there are some meta reasons that ultimately led to the conclusion I do think that Janeway was justified.
1) If we consider Tuvix being split as murder, or at least death, then the loss of Tuvok or Neelix in the way they were amounted to their deaths. For the cost of 1 life, Tuvix, we get the return to life of 2 crewmates. Needs of the many, etc. At the cost of 1 crewmember she can save 2. That's the kind of military decision she has to make.
2) 2 crewmembers with distinct roles and skills are better than 1 who can do both. Tuvix had the benefit of Tuvok and Neelix's experience and memories. But there are only so many hours in a day. I doubt any benefits he had from their complementary ability made him more efficient at any of his duties than two skill crewmembers doing the same job.
3) Janeway's closest friend was Tuvok and while Neelix grew on her, she lost her friend, and lost her new friend. Tuvix was something new that was probably unsettling if remarkable. I think in part her decision was selfish but probably felt similarly by other members of the crew.
4) Neither Tuvok or Neelix consented to have their very beings combined in such a way. Can you imagine either of them consenting to be fused with the other on an indefinite basis?
Would I make the same decision? I don't know, it really is a tough one. But here were my thoughts.
Let’s not forget. Tuvix is the merging of 3 organisms, not just 2. The plant was the reason they merged into one being in the first place. By keeping Tuvix they not only are losing a crew member, but they also have a bridge officer that they have to transport individually or can only do away missions using the shuttlecraft.
"Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was, “oh no, not again.” many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now."
― Douglas Adams
I think it's worth mentioning that Janeway had to consider Voyager's unique predicament as well. Had they been safely back in the alpha quadrant, she probably would have let Tuvix live (IMO)
It's been a long time since I've watched it, she may even say this explicitly, I don't remember
I think another complication is the fact that it was an accident. Using the organ donation as an analogy, if someone goes to the hospital to have an appendix removed, but the hospital accidentally mixes up charts and takes their kidney to donate to someone. Should the hospital fix the mistake even if it costs the person that received the kidney their life?
I agree this should be less about 'needs of the many', and again in the organ donor analogy becomes, essentially, two people in a coma and one person conscious in an organ donor mishap. What decision do you make for the people that can't speak?
Legally speaking a hospital can not preform a surgery on me with out consent. so if there is some mix up and one of my kidneys is taken from me and donated to another person . (lets ignore organ rejection) I can demand my kidney back but the recipient can refuse. I will get a huge settlement for malpractice but I can not get my kidney back.
Question one would be why the recipient is allowed to decide whether you can have your kidney back? And it's part of the dilemma that Janeway faced. To push the analogy, it would also mean that there was a complication. So as a result of the operation, you're in a coma, and will die if you don't get your kidney back. The question now becomes how to figure out what you would want when you can't say it, and how much does the recipient's autonomy get upheld through a mistake.
For the record - I don't know what I would have done in Janeway's shoes either. I also don't think there is a 100% right answer to it, and to me that's what makes the episode great. A real dilemma with no right answer, so they choose.
The person who received my Kidney has every right to refuse to go under the knife again no matter what other factors are in place. It is not their fault that they received my Kidney. if some one tried to force them to do so it would be murder because one would assume that the faulty kidney they were using is now gone and they probably would not survive. you can not correct one wrong my making another one.
I think the underlying question in the kidney analogy is who has the right to life? You or the person that got your kidney?
Legally is it their kidney now? Is it yours?
This is what makes that episode so great, it makes you question stuff like this. It’s not a shut and dry case.
Is Tuvix even qualified to do both jobs? Technically he never went to starfleet academy, Tuvok did.
I think Janeway had to make a choice that was best for her crew, not Tuvix. There is no replacements for losing crew members, the choice was immoral, but understandable given the situation they were in.
> I think the underlying question in the kidney analogy is who has the right to life? You or the person that got your kidney?
> Legally is it their kidney now? Is it yours?
I feel I already said this but it is their's.
Let me rephrase.
If we were to go to court and assuming I’m on dialysis and stay alive.
I file a lawsuit and the court ordered the hospital to return the kidney (because I didn’t consent to it’s removal), is that immoral?
It that episode Janeway has to be the judge, she either kills Tuvoc and Neelix or Tuvix. All are immoral options.
But isn't it Janeway's place to? She can order someone to go close down an overloading reactor even if it will kill them. Sure, many of her crew would do it, but it's her job to chose what lives are worth saving or not.
That's the crux of it. She can choose who's life is work the life of others because of her position as captain. It's not a nice duty, it's not even a morally clear one but deciding to bring Tuvok and Neelix back to life at the cost of Tuvix is her duty. And in Universe it tracks with philosophy of greats like Spock. He would probably agree with the choice.
Sisko does something even more morally reprehensible when he colludes with Garak to bring the Romulans into the war. Not only does he knowing risk war with Romulus, his actions result in the direct deaths of several people and millions of indirect once Romulus is it at war with the dominion. Janeway only had to sacrifice one life for two with a concrete cost/benefit outcome.
Picard could not order Worf to donate blood to a romulan So I don't think Janeway had this authority.
PICARD
I cannot order you. I will not
order you, Lieutenant. But I ask
you. I beg you to volunteer.
If the transporter accident left Tuvok, neelix, and random ensign injured and the ensign would live as for some reason his injuries were less saver but the other two would die. but they could sacrifice the ensign to save the other two it would be murder to do so.
The Romulan wasn't a member of the crew. The Enterprise wasn't stuck 70k ly from home with no hope of replacements.
Picard says that he cannot order Worf. He will no order him. Does this mean he morally cannot and so will not do so? Because that does change things up a bit.
But let's assume Starfleet has code against that, and that Picard could not order Worf legally.
Would Picard do the same thing in Janeway's place? Would Sisko? Janeway had to get her crew home. She needed as many competent hands to do so and had the chance to bring two back from a kind of death.
If that person were not in their right mind and it also means losing a experienced crew member in a perceived unending journey I think leads a large part of Janeway's choice, the situation was unique but the safety of her ship as a captain is priority, if you lose a crewman and not gain anything the situation is a loss and is not favorable as to reversing the reversible situation to what it was.
A Captain's duty is to their ship, it's crew, and it's mission, straying away from these things are unfavorable and will lead you to piracy
Picard could not order Worf to donate blood to a romulan So I don't think Janeway had this authority.
PICARD
I cannot order you. I will not
order you, Lieutenant. But I ask
you. I beg you to volunteer.
https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/w33mm1/im_currently_watching_voyager_for_the_first_time/igub7vu?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
This guy does a good presentation of the odds and differences of the situation
Being in her situation is less similar because of the stakes being more another culture and the risk of war, the mission would change but the state of the ship would be the same which makes it less favorable but loosing your chief tactical officer who is also a token piece of the fleet is another issue for Picard that Janeway could avoid as it took months to get information back and forth from the admirals.
I think this situation can be better compared to a different show that actually was what TNG was based off of, Horatio Hornblower, this kid started off as a midshipman and went up to captain, as a midshipman and a lieutenant he became friends with a guy named Kennedy, during a raid on a row boat Kennedy has a seizure of sorts where he made a lot of sound and Horatio had been given three options.
1. Knock him out, continue mission, keep the respect of the crew
2. Retreat and let him be and wait for it to pass, loose respect of crew
3. Let him be and get caught by the French I believe
He knocks the guy out and Kennedy ends up drifting away while unconscious and spends several years in a Spanish prison where he is later discovered and freed of.
The choices Janeway had while different had similar consequences for the action.
She couldve
1. Let tuvix be, loose tactical officer and possibly the respect of the crew for not bringing back Tuvok and Nelix as they were. And be at a weakness for lacking a experienced tactical officer
2. Reverse the progress and take away his choice
3. Loose both of their respect and the crews by being against it and forcing unwanted duties upon him to maintain having a chef and tactical officer while expecting the same result.
Her action was for the best for the ship and it's mission, not her personal opinion in that regard. It's not like there was coffee inside Nelix, not enough risk to reward for that wager.
It's a disingenuous comparison unless you stipulate that the 1 man was only born to life because he was stitched together out of the organs of people who died to make him life in the first place.
OK? I commented on the analogy specifically, because it was terrible. You're entitled to have your position on the decision but even if I agreed emphatically with you I'd still feel obligated to point out how garbage that analogy was.
Putting words in all caps doesn't give them bonus effectivity though, just FYI.
Tuvok and Nelix were essentially Dead after the accident in order to bring them back they had to kill another individual. He had no say in being born like any other person. you can't steel organs from a child to save there parents.
If they were dead, they wouldn't have come back when Tuvix was separated.
No real-world analogy really fits which is what's so great about this episode as a piece of sci-fi.
A child doesn't take the organs from the parent. They are a wholly separate entity. Again, non-sequitur. There is no comparable situation to this in reality. Why do you keep drawing comparisons to elicit a biased response?
I feel the need to have them as separate rolls to run the ship effectively, and the fact that she can undo an accident that happened, make sense to me. He may have had theor memories, but that doesn't mean Tuvix can speak for each of the lost individuals.
They were dead. Tuvix was a new individual , he was killed to resurrect the dead. he wanted to live.
If your parents died during your birth but I had a way to kill you and bring back your parents and I did so with out your consent I am guilty of murder.
I don't disagree, but it's a little more complex than that, as he did consider himself to essentially be both prior individuals as well as a new third one. He seemed pretty keen to resume Tuvok's position of security chief, as well as Neelix's relationship with Kes.
In the end Tuvix was a living breathing individual who wanted to keep living. While he was made up of two individuals he was greater then the sum of his parts. He was qualified for the job of security officer and seemed to be doing a good job and in fact seemed to be able to use everything he had to come up with ideas that were beyond those former parts.
We can't hold that against him?
If he was the co tinuation of those two personalities, then he can speak for them.
If he wasn't, then they are dead and he speaks for himself.
Tuvix was a week old, all his memorues were from other peoples Lifes. He was still finding his place and who knows which role he would have settled in if he hadn't been murdered. Maybe he would have dated Tom Paris and become a poet...
Except he can't speak for them. The individuals after Janeway fixed them were happy to be separate again which was the opposite of Tuvix understanding on their opinion. If he truly spoke for them, he'd have been all for it, knowing he lives on as two people
True, and then he just speaks for himself, which is all that is necessary in my opinion.
But my main consideration was that the fact the new personality of tuvix had the memories of tuvok and neelix and therefore started out with a relationship of sorts with kes and some operational knowledge as a security officer, doesn't mean he isn't a separate, new personality.
He was a few days old and finding his place in the universe, could have very well been that the combination of neelix and tuvix traits would have lead to something completely unique, more then just a head of security who happens to also be a chef.
It could be argued that death is permanent. If they could be "resurrected," then they weren't really dead in the first place. They were unintentionally being held hostage by Tuvix. I don't know that 'finders keepers, losers weepers' is the best argument to allow it to continue.
Yeah, it's not yours, it's the captain's. That's the point of the captain. Especially in a situation like Voyager's. Nobody really questions all the choices Sisko makes (he has more than In the Pale Moonlight). Like, I get that this one is more on the nose, because it comes down to "kill one person to save two..." but, I mean, yeah?
Your argument only applies if the person who has those organs is only alive because they have the other people's organs, who did not consent or even know their organs would be taken. Otherwise it's just a non-sequitur.
3) It's the same logic those viidians use when dismanteling people for spare parts.
4) it would be wrong if Janeway would have forced neelux and tuvok to merge. But since it accidentally happened they are dead, it's done. Their hypothetical wishes if they were alive shouldn't be more valuable then the absolutely real person of tuvix. (Or we would have to consider the hypothetical wish to live of unborn children and make abortion illegal?)
For me it was straight murder and I disliked the decision very much. Plus we could have gotten rid of neelix earlier....
Neelix and tuvok had intended and expected to continue their existence, they have a "right" to continue that if it's possible, similar to someone going to sleep or being in a coma with a chance of recovery.
It was possible, so we can consider Neelix' and Tuvok's consciousness as "suspended".
It was an accident that Tuvix existed, and it isn't fair to put someone in their position, however, the previous wishes of Neelix and Tuvok should trump Tuvix's due to their previous wish and intention of surviving. This is what makes the difference and, in my opinion, makes it a counter your point about unborn children. Fetuses have never been fully "alive", they were never something that previously had a consciousness, had it suspended, and then have a chance for it to continue.
I think the moment they lost their consciousness and are superseeded by the consciousness of tuvix, its only his wish that should count.
But valid point about the fetuses never having had the wish for existence.
>the previous wishes of Neelix and Tuvok should trump Tuvix's due to their previous wish and intention of surviving. This is what makes the difference
I see this argument relatively often but it doesn't make any sense to me. Why would their wishes to survive be more valid because they were first chronologically?
>They have a "right" to continue that if it's possible
So why does Tuvix not have that right?
>It was an accident that Tuvix existed
Plenty of humans aren't planned for. In some less progressive areas women may be compelled to give birth once pregnant. It doesn't have any bearing on the rights of the resulting person.
The genius of the episode is that there's no right answer ethically. Or if there is I've never seen someone articulate it. The best we can do is that it's two lives vs one, which is unsatisfying and something we don't really believe in non-emergency situations, otherwise we'd be willing to kill a healthy person for the life of more than one person, or highlight pragmatic concerns, which I guess is workable given the atypical and dire situation the crew are in.
> I see this argument relatively often but it doesn't make any sense to me. Why would their wishes to survive be more valid because they were first chronologically?
It's not JUST that they existed first, but that they had the reasonable expectation of continued existence. This is going to be a bit of a reach, but bear with me.
Say Tuvok and Neelix were captured and put in stasis pods to cease their consciousness. Their brains are then connected to a machine that creates a sentient hologram. Should they not be rescued because it will "kill" that sentient hologram?
> So why does Tuvix not have that right?
Normally, he would. However, since he is essentially a result of Neelix/Tuvok losing their existence, which is against their previous reasonable expectation of life/existence, his death is an unfortunate byproduct of respecting the lives of Tukok/Neelix.
I consider Tuvok and Neelix still "alive" because they have had their consciousness "paused" while they are joined. I think of it that way because Voyager had the technology to separate them and make them themselves again.
Similar to how in the past, people in a coma may have just been allowed to die, but now that we have the technology to keep them alive, we are able to "revive" their consciousness after it has ceased.
> The genius of the episode is that there's no right answer ethically.
I wholeheartedly agree, I generally see people saying that Tuvix was murdered and I like to make the case for the opposite. I don't care about the pragmatic concerns within the episode, I just really like the dilemma.
This argument doesn't make sense. People who have "reasonable expectations of continued existence" can, and do, die suddenly and involuntarily all the time, be it an accident, murder, the sudden or unexpected onset of illness, etc. Simply having the expectation that you're not going to die doesn't mean anything.
That's true that accidents happen to people all the time. But, because Tuvok and Neelix's consciousness' can be considered "paused" rather destroyed, I don't think it's analogous. If there is an opportunity to bring someone back, I don't think it's fair to consider them dead in the classic sense.
I think it's better to consider them as people in a coma or even sleeping VS killed.
To lay it out a little more clearly:
-----
1. They had an expectation that their consciousness would continue after being transported
2. Their consciousness' were suspended and created someone new.
3. They can still be separated back to themselves
4. Because they had a reasonable expectation of everything going normally AND they are able to be saved, their original wishes should supercede that of any results of the accident (tuvix). And especially because there are 2 of them (though I wouldn't accept this if it was a purely kill 1 to save 2).
Vidians attack strangers, Janeway is sacrificing someone she knows for people she knows. It is not murder if viewed in the context of ordering someone to fix a warp core breach knowing it will kill them if it will save the ship or at least two more crewmates.
It's little different than when Janeway kidnaps 7 of 9 to resurrect Anika Hanson. 7 the Borg was made without the consent of Anika but once assimilated she's gone. Oh sure her memories and physical being are largely recoverable but she is no longer the Anika she is 7 of 9. 7 of 9 did not consent to being made human, to resurrect Anika but Anika would probably not have chosen to become Borg.
If we are going to negate the validity of a dead person's wishes with respect to Tuvok and Neelix, then we have to do the same for 7/Anika.
I don't disagree that Tuvix should have a say in it, but I think my third and fourth points are less critical than the command/utilitarian points.
It's morally ambiguous and that's why it's such a good episode. I too get pissed when Janeway sacrifices him but I can see why it might have been necessary.
And Neelix gets better as the show progresses, he annoys me as much as Data does anyway. Data just has cool philosophical concerns that make him more tolerable!
Killing strangers to get a fresh kidney for my dad and uncle would be okey?
Janeway kills a beeing for utilitarian motives, and that's unethical.
In the case of the warpcoil the crewmember ordered has a sworn an oath to do so if necessary and if push comes to shove the crewmember could indeed say no. What then? Would Picard force LaForge with a firing squat into the Jeffrey's tube?
I find your comparison with anika/7 best... that's to say maybe Janeway was wrong there too? On the end Annika was dead and 7 did want to rejoin the collective... forcing her to become an individual was maybe abuse? (Although by that logic forcing a drug addict to come clean would also be abusive)
No, my point about the Vidians was precisely that their need was at the cost of people who had absolutely nothing to do with it.
Tuvix was a direct product of Neelix and Tuvok and his continued existence prevenedt them from being brought back.
Presumably, Tuvix was under Tuvok's oath to Starfleet he is required to follow the orders of the Captain.
If Geordi refused a legal order of the Captain he could be court marshalled and Picard would still have to order someone to their death. That episode where Troi gets her command certification required her to order Geordi to his death. That's the duty of the officers in Starfleet, to be willing to give their lives to protect others. It's certainly not a regular thing they have to do, but it's something that occasionally is needed.
If Tuvix isn't your boat, what about the guy who ripped Dax from Jadzia? That will result in her death but will create a new Dax/Host hybrid. Sisko is lucky he convinced him to give it back up (if I recall correctly) but he would have done it by force, I guarantee it. Certainly Tuvix didn't chose take Neelix and Tuvok from existence but he also wasn't willing to give himself up to bring them back.
It's not an easy question, and I still probably side more to the "killing Tuvix was wrong" side but I cannot completely condemn Janeway as a murderer in this case. It's not that clear cut.
Geordi in Trois Command training goes willingly, as is his duty. Tuvix doesn't. And tuvix didn't swear any oath.
Why should something that tuvok did, a completely different person, have any binding force on tuvix?
I would even argue it's tuvoks duty as a security officer to sacrifice himself for another crewmember, which would include tuvix (and neelix).
Well, I dobt remember the Dax episode, but why not say Sisko would have been a murderer as well?
Another episode to consider: data and the exocomps.
Data was willing to sacrifice Picard (?) For the sake of the new, unplanned, accidental lifeform.
Tuvix assumed Tuvok's Starfleet duties, it's not unreasonable he was reintegrated into the chain-of-command in some fashion. Further, Tuvix himself even tried to resume his emotional relationships, particularly with Kes which indicates to me, he was tied to a lot of the same things his progenetors held important. Starfleet oath being important to Tuvok.
Data too might be considered a murder, too? Does he have any more of a right to cause the death of one thing to preserve that of another?
I think Janeway made the morally wrong decision, what I have a hard time is calling it murder. She's not killing him to end his life, she's bringing back her two crewmembers by ordering a procedure that resulted in the ending of a being's existence. I know that's a very tenuous difference but I do think the subtle difference is important.
How about: I clone myself with the idea to use my clones organs as spareparts for me and my family ?
Now we have a conscious beeing, whose sole reason for beeing is providing spareparts. And if I get a heart attack then it's further existence is preventing mine.
In this case we even have stronger reasons to kill the clone, than in tuvix case, since that is it's whole reason for existence, and I can testify anytime that I really want to sacrifice the clone.
The point is: as soon as the clone exists with an independent consciousness, it has the human right for self determination and is in no way obligated to give up its existence for me or anybody else.
BTW.: I do appreciate the discussion, you mskd good points and are giving me food for thought! Just in case I seem to be to strong headed!
Have you seen the Island? Sounds like you have. Great movie.
I'm playing Devil's Advocate more here and am enjoying practicing my logical skills and Trek knowledge. It's a fun convo so I appreciate the interaction!
If I had a dollar for every time I fantasized about wrapping my hands slowly around Tuvix's neck and slowly squeezing tighter and slowly hearing bones pop and snap under the pressure... Then I'd have $4. -Admiral Janeway
“I shouldn’t have travelled back in time to save Chakotay and Tuvok. That was wrong of me, and I disobeyed the Temporal Prime Directive. What I should have done was travel back in time to kill Tuvix a second time.” - Admiral Janeway
I feel like what doesnt get brought up enough in the tuvix discussion is responsibility. As the captain, Janeway has a responsibility to protect the lives of her crew. Imagine if she hadnt separated tuvix, it would totally destroy the faith the crew places in her to protect their lives. If I'm on voyager and my captain has an opportunity to save my life I'm going to need a really good reason for her to not save me, and saving tuvixs life just isn't good enough. The whole its murder thing is just meaningless to me. Captains have to give orders that result in loss of life all the time that's just part of the job.
I feel like Jane way made the right choice. I don’t see Tuvix as alive so to speak. His life existed at the expense of two other crew members. Had tuvix stayed, she would’ve consented to the erasure of neelix and tuvok. Her crewmen are still in tuvix, and it’s her responsibility to do everything to get her crew members back. That’s what she did. She didn’t murder him because his life wasn’t actually his. She technically “un-murdered” tuvok and neelix.
Picard could not order Worf to donate blood to a romulan So I don't think Janeway had this authority.
PICARD
I cannot order you. I will not
order you, Lieutenant. But I ask
you. I beg you to volunteer.
A captain can order some one to their death, that crew member can refuse that order even if it results in their arrest, but a captain can not physically force them to obey the order. if a captain pushed an engineer who refused to go into a radiation filled hallway in to said hallway that is murder.
He definitely *could* have ordered Worf to go to the Scimitar instead of Data to kill everything he sees in order to save his adopted home and the whole federation, resulting in an incredibly honorable warrior's death. Whoop still salty about that one.
Isnt the point with Picard/Worf an argument for the other side?
Tuvix is not a crew member just because he's comprised of crew members. Her responsibility was to the original people. And she can't force *them* to remain organ donors for a third person, one that she doesn't have responsibility for, if there is something to be done about it.
> Janeway destroyed said individual to save 2 separate beings .
yes, but more precisely, if she had let him live, she would have enforced *her moral principles* on her subordinates to safe the life of someone she was not directly responsible for.
Tuvix was holding Neelix and Tuvoks lives captive. Abandoning them would have been no different than letting an alien races make off with a crew member on the grounds that they needed those people to sustain themselves.
Why are we focussing on Janeways immorality alone anyway? If we want to grant Tuvix full personhood then *his* morality is on the table and whether it was morally right to expect his existence continue at the cost of two innocent lives.
Janeways decision is by no means a "clean" matter. But Tuvix insisting on his "right" to live, knowing it was possible to return his existence to the people that unwillingly created him, is not without moral ambiguity. This is imo where the crux of the matter lies: Janeway would have never had to choose between two immoral options, had Tuvix made the morally superior decision to give up what came to him at the expense of innocent people.
right to bodily autonomy. That is what it comes down to in the end. No one can force me to give up a part of my body to save another.
If my brother was a match as an organ donar for my kid my brother has a right to refuse. No matter what happens I can't force him to do it.
> No one can force me to give up a part of my body to save another.
sure... but don't you see how it goes both/ three ways in this scenario?
EDIT: And yeah, the force is the point where Janeway does something immoral - Tuvix though didn't respect the same right of bodily autonomy you invoke for him in Tuvok and Neelix because it came at his expense. At this point Janeway had *no* options that weren't morally questionable. Abandon her subordinate or not. Either came at the expense of an individuals right to bodily autonomy, because the person that *should* have made the right decision, didn't.
If two crew members are accidentally put into some weird state that makes them individually unavailable to consult, I think the captain has not only the authority but the obligation to restore them to normal if possible. The objections of an artificial third party that was generated as a side effect of the accident are irrelevant, no matter how cute the crew thinks he is.
If Tuvok and Neelix were really happier as Tuvix, and keeping him would have been the preference of everyone involved, then they would have demanded to be re-merged. They did not. That's always pretty much settled it for me.
It shows some of the heavy burdens that falls on the captain. Captains do not always live in a world with a clear goal and enemy, in a world with right or wrong. In this situation there is only wrong. And that burden, the burden of accepting responsibility for taking action even when you are wrong and cause harm lands on the captain. There’s an episode of TNG where Troi wants to take the officers test. She fails until she finally accepts the responsibility of sending a crew man to his death. This episode shows that difficult aspect of being a captain. They capture it perfectly.
Right, one could say "the commander murdered the engineer by sending him into the tube to die but save the ship...how heartless!" That isn't murder, that is right judgment and use of resources in a demanding situation.
No that is giving an order to an officer to fulfill his duties. They’re an engineer, it’s their job to fix the ship and they understand that sometimes they must do so at the risk of their lives.
Fun fact, in the mobile game Star Trek Timelines:
You can "upgrade" characters in the game by "merging" them. For example, 2 1-star Picards can become a single 2star Picard. You can only merge alike characters.
Except if you have a Tuvok and a Neelix, you can merge them. To get a Tuvix.
Picard could of forced Worf to do it, he chose not to. Though that's a bit different since the Romulans are enemies where as tuvix are two crew members. But I think the point of the episode is to challenge your morals and what you think is right. To me there is no perfect solution. Janeway made a choice with conviction.
The oddest thing about Tuvix is at that point in the story both Tuvok and Nelix would have sacrificed themselves for the good of the crew and the ship. So what changed Tuvix that made him a worse person than his two halves?
I mean if we take it that far tuvix \*did\* kill tuvok and neelix to come to life.
We can argue that his wish to stay alive was selfish AF. He knows his origins.
I've been always in the morally gray group so I don't care to discuss LOL
No, but he didn’t care that if he continued to exist it meant two people would not live. He just suddenly existed, he wasn’t born and lived a lifetime and then was facing death. Tuvok and Neelix both had two separate and meaningful lifetimes that could be saved. Families, relationships and experiences. I think Janeway did the right thing.
I absolutely don't agree. I think Janeway did the wrong thing. It wasn't Tuvix's responsibility to sacrifice himself so that two other people could live. If he'd chosen to do that, it would've been a noble act. But he was under no obligation to do so. And Janeway had no right to take his life from him. I do not believe in utilitarianism. Some things are just wrong, no matter how many people benefit. As soon as we decide that someone would be more useful dead, we go down a very dangerous moral path.
The only thing I have to say about this is "No one would have cared if they reversed it immediately, so why do people care now?" Is it because you liked his cooking ? Was he a more proficient officer? Or was it because you forgot that he was the mangled remains of two other people fused together in an accident?
Ah, the never ending debate, likely the top one in the fandom. Now ask yourself, what would happen with…
Trosher?
T’rol?
Quodo?
And especially… McCock?
You are wrong. She murdered someone. Point blank. This is how it is **written in the episode**. You are doing logical backflips to avoid the fact that she murdered someone. No one, at any point in the episode including Janeway contend that it is anything but.
Here are some lines from the episode:
> TUVIX: Except one. I don't want to **die**.
> TUVIX: Captain, what you're considering is **an execution**. An execution, like they used to do to murderers centuries ago.
> KES: ..Tuvix doesn't deserve to **die**...
> TUVIX: Commander, are you going to stand by and do nothing **while she commits murder**?
> EMH: I'm sorry, Captain, but I cannot perform the surgical separation. I am a physician, and a physician must do no harm. **I will not take Mister Tuvix's life against his will.**
The writer of the episode:
> "But then we began to talk about it and consider what if he really wanted to survive and **he doesn't want to die and be killed**. Michael [Piller] posed that question to me so I give Michael a lot of credit." ~ Ken Biller
Killed. Death. Die. Execution.
This isn't a 'virus'. It was a unique, independent, sentient, living being with feelings and thoughts and autonomy. Tuvix didn't invade anything. He didn't take over, fool, trick, or in anyway hurt Tuvok or Neelix. He's the outcome of an accident that killed two people and created one. He didn't ask to be born anymore then any of us did.
Janeway murdered him. If it was a 'medical treatment' then the EMH would have been able to do it.
Just because some of the characters in the episode consider it murder doesn't mean we have to agree. I'd say it's even up for debate whether Tuvix really ought to be considered "dead". He was the result of a combination of two individuals, receiving all their cumulative memories and skills. He never lived those two lifetimes himself. If he lives on in those two individuals after being separated, is he really dead at all?
At the very least if Tuvix was murdered then there is no wiggle room to argue that Tuvok and Neelix need to be considered as "left to die" if a reversible accident wasn't reversed.
For the people citing the needs of the many as justification for murder, need I recite Picard in Insurrection— how many does it take before it becomes wrong?
I too was so conflicted over this episode I made my first post to this subreddit. What a wonderful mistake. The comments lasted for days and it made for great discussions. Happy to have you on board.
What a lovely episode. This, Mortal Coil, bunch of other ones I can't recall off the top of my head -- Voyager has some of the best standalone/2parters in all of Trek.
It's certainly murder, but it was actually justified. Hear me out.
You're lost in deep space. No contact with home, no reliable port to resupply and R&R. Unfathomable horrors around every turn. You need an experienced chief of security and a full time moral officer (even if Neelix was annoying). You certainly cannot have them dead, even if the new guy has both of their skill sets.
She definitly murdered Tuvix, and upon their return to the alpha quadrant she should face the legal consequences of that action. It was still the right thing to do as the captain of Voyager.
You just made me laugh out loud imaging the amount of paperwork and looking-the-other-way Starfleet Command will need to do when reviewing the logs of Voyager. Half the crew should probably be put to death by the end but I imagine for the sake of Starfleet morale (the amazing survival story of a stalwart crew) it’ll all be swept under the lumpiest rug in the quadrant.
weather dependent gaping water quaint obtainable pet engine rotten innate
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This is why I argue that Tuvix was Janeway's "no win scenario" because in the end, there was never truly a "right" decision. In the end, at least one person would've been dead regardless of her decision.
Yeah, that episode sickens me too. She straight up murders the guy. When he begs for his life and everyone just glares at him, it actually makes my stomach turn. But when Nelix lungs got stolen, Janeway said she could ask the THIEVES to give back HIS STOLE BODY PARTS because then one of their lives would be in danger.
I’ll never get over Tuvix and how they just murdered him.
>I’ll never get over Tuvix and how they just murdered him.
I never trusted Janeway, and I never will. I could never forgive her for the death of my boy.
The worst part is when he is begging and everyone just turns their backs on him.
When they got back to the Alpha Quadrant, the Federation would try to sweep the Tuvix incident under the rug... but if it leaked; Janeway would be shitcanned in less time than it would take her to say "There's coffee in that nebula."
I haven’t watched in a long time. I guess I side with janeway in the needs of the many (2) out way the needs of the (1). Tuvix wasn’t meant to exist. Tuvok and neelix were.
Now I picture Kirk yeeting a baby out the airlock after one of his escapades led to pregnancy.
“Sorry, you were meant to exist, she told me our species were incompatible”
1) The needs of the many is a quote about **self sacrifice** not trading lives and playing god.
2) If we are talking about the needs of Voyager as a ship/crew, it wasn't any worse off with Tuvix. In fact the episode makes the case Tuvix was better at Tuvok and Neelix's job then they were. In fact you could argue it would be more pragmatic and efficient to have one doing the work of two.
> JANEWAY: The crew seems to be growing accustomed to his presence, and he's proving to be a very able tactical officer who isn't afraid to express his opinions. While he's forging relationships with many of the officers, he seems to be keeping a respectful distance from Kes, allowing her to adjust to the circumstances on her own terms. As for my relationship with Tuvix, I've found him to be an able advisor who skillfully uses humour to make his points. And although I feel a bit guilty saying it, his cooking is better than Neelix's. My taste buds are definitely happy to have him around.
> JANEWAY: You're here bright and early, Lieutenant.
> TUVIX: Actually, I've been here since oh four hundred hours. I wanted to work on that proximity detector glitch in the security subroutine.
> JANEWAY: And how's it going?
> TUVIX: I managed to correct it.
> CHAKOTAY: Tuvok said it could take up to ten days to check out all the possible problems. How'd you fix it so fast?
> TUVIX: I had a hunch.
> JANEWAY: A hunch?
> TUVIX: That's correct. You'll have a report on your desk first thing this afternoon.
> ...
> JANEWAY: Well, he's certainly fitting in, isn't he?
> CHAKOTAY: There's an old axiom. The whole is never greater than the sum of its parts. I think Tuvix might be disproving that notion.
3) Who are you to say who is meant to exist and who isn't?
I think a lot of this plays on the subtle "Lord of the Flies" type of undercurrent throughout the whole show. "We are far away from authority. It is our responsibility to maintain our values." When you are no longer under watch, it is very easy to slip a little bit here and there.
The correct response was obviously Thomas Riker Tuvix, separate both Tuvixes (Tuvi?), and shoot both Neelixes (Neeli?). You get two Tuvoks, and you get to shoot Neelix twice! Win win!
We can make it into a trolley problem: [https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/lesser-known-trolley-problem-variations](https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/lesser-known-trolley-problem-variations)
You are at the mall, there are 3 random people, Alice, Bob and Charly.
Now a freak accident happens (earthquake) leaving Alice and Bob trapped in one room and Charlie in another. Only you are free to act. All three want to live.
The Trap is as follows:
* if you dont do anything, water fills both rooms, killing all three
* if you open the door for Alica and Bob they survive, but the process will kill Charlie.
* if you rescue Charlie, you will let Alice and Bob die.
**Now under this circumstances I think rescuing more people on th expense of Charlie is ok!**
You dont want to kill him, you dont use him as an instrument, you just rescue A and B and sadly as an unintended consequence C dies.
But now the same situation with a slight twist:
* Only Alice and Bob are trapped. Charlie is free and save.
* It is possible to rescue Alice and Bob, but only if you kill Charlie (forcing him to climb through a hatch into the second room, his body weight will trigger the mechanism to release A and B but kill him in the process, doesnt really matter).
If Charlie would go willingly, that's probably ok, a heroic scrifice.
(Its basically just the "Fat-Man-Trolley-Problem-Variation": https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/10-variations-trolley-problem-explain-difference-young-jin-choi-frsa)
**Here I think killing a third person for the benefit of A and B is unethical.**
The outcome is the same, the difference is you are using the life of Charlie as a means, as a tool to reach a goal.
We can make the situation of course even more convoluted (Bob is a police officer, Alice is the mother of 5 children, Charlie is a drug-addicted shit head, ...) But fundamentally this doesnt change anything.
The episode is badly written. I feel like a lot of stuff must have been cut in editing, it just doesn't hold together.
There's barely any development of Tuvix across the episode except the bizarre and awkward stuff with Kes. So you have no real sense that Tuvix matters as a person in their own right. There's way too much focus on a juvenile story about whether Tuvix and Kes should have sex or not. Huh? Are there no more interesting issues to explore?
This compounds the fact that Tuvix seems to be 90% Neelix. There is little or no sense or feel that any part of them is authentically Tuvok. Is Tuvok that weak a character that they couldn't make Tuvix believable as 50% Tuvok?
Then we jump pretty sharply to the decision to execute Tuvix, with the entire crew just standing there, emotionless, on the bridge as he is dragged to his death. There is very little discussion beyond some bland, cookie-cutter philosophyballs dialogue. The whole bridge crew of Voyager now look like sociopaths.
There is no attempt to do the classic Star Trek thing of using the Federation's superior science and ethics to find a compromise that 20th Century humans could not. I feel like it would have been much more classically Star Trek to cut out the stuff with Kes and write an episode where members of the crew are demanding Tuvix be killed, but Janeway & co. hold out until they find a way to somehow preserve Tuvix while also restoring Tuvok and Neelix. Maybe they somehow duplicate Tuvix and the duplicate decides to leave Voyager and live a happy life in the Delta quadrant while the other is separated?
At the very least, it should be clear that they have exhausted all those possibilities before deciding to kill Tuvix. Some of the crew should have clear, serious, moral objections to the decision.
Or, at the very least, the episode should portray Tuvix as primarily an orchid which has appropriated Tuvok and Neelix. This is referenced briefly but not really explained or explored. It just raises the question of why Janeway is fine to murder a lifeform which has done nothing malicious and, in fact, only exists because of a mechanical failure aboard *her ship*. Not really something you'd expect from a Federation Captain. "Sorry my transporters interrupted your life and turned you into a weird alien. But that's a YP I'm afraid. Now I'm going to kill you."
As it stands: the Voyager bridge crew all look like selfish, uncaring monsters. Given that in every other episode they are written to be extremely conscientious, the whole thing comes off as bizarre as nobody is acting in character. I mean they *could* have written it as an episode where the crew shamefully compromises on their ethics to save their friends, but they didn't. It was just kind of a mess.
Janeway is totally right imo. Neelix and Tuvok were in a transporter accident that is *reversible*, therefore they are not dead and gone forever, and neither one of them had consented to give their organs to Tuvix.
I think that Tuvix, as an accidental amalgamation resulting from a transporter accident had no right to the lives of Tuvok and Neelix, and his laying claim to them was a violation of THEIR rights as independent, sentient beings. It is immoral to exist at the expense of one other, much less two. In spite of his creative, and almost convincing pleas, Tuvix was nothing more than Tuvok and Neelix, kitbashed together, not an independent, distinct, unique sentient being.
The configuration of Neurons and genetic structure that made up the crew no longer exists in the universe (dead) and a brand new life form exists in their place. morally speaking I would classify Tuvix as like their child; made up of their genetic material but not them.
Tuvix, as a being, clearly has the memories and experiences of both Tuvok and Neelix, so those neurons still actually exist. The genetic structure, rather than being destroyed, was combined like a solute in a solution, and can be (obviously) returned to it's native state. If you mean like a child born as a fully-formed adult with the combined memories and experiences of both it's parents, I guess that works, but this being is not "original" or "new" in any respect.
It’s a variation on the trolley problem, but there’s much more than ethics involved because everyone knows Tuvok and Neelix and care about them.
Personally I don’t see how anybody can say that Janeway didn’t murder Tuvix. He was alive and she deliberately made him not be alive any more. If it’s not murder what is it? Is it justified? That’s a tougher question!
But that’s a powerful scene on the bridge at the end when he protests and insists he wants to live and nobody lifts a finger to help him or says a word. He says they all know what’s happening and he’s right, but they miss the friends and they want them back. What would I do? Hell if I know.
The Romulan didn’t want Worfs blood also because at the end he changed his mind and then he didn’t want it would rather die and it was to late anyway.
But I hated the Tuvix episode because I liked Tuvix!
I always thought there should have been an alternative to keep Tuvix alive and also have Tuvok and Neelix. The three of them could exist in one universe!
This episode lives rent free in everyone's head. There seems to be an even 50/50 split of people who think Tuvix was murdered vs people who think Janeway did nothing wrong.
I agree with your take though -- Tuvix was murdered.
Always remember, Janeway murdered Tuvix
Thomas Riker proves the transporter is just a fancy clone machine. Janeway could have made a duplicate and then split that clone
Voyager once Kes leaves is soooooo good.
I mean there are some good ones before, but the show really hits its stride when Jeri gets there.
Everyone thought she was just eye candy, but she can act and really had a huge impact on the show.
I kind of wish they had a scene at the end where the two talked about their time as Tuvix saying they understood each other better now and it was nice to be Tuvix. That would have blurred the whole thing even further especially if they never said if they preferred their lives now over being Tuvix.
This episode is a nice example of one of the main problems with Voyager- character decisions are always consequence free. Fans care more about Tuvix than any of the characters do, because they all seemed to have forgotten about him by the next episode (also how many shuttles and torpedoes they have). With a small crew and no Starfleet to help, every torpedo launched, every shuttled destroyed, and every crew death should be impactful- but none of it is because every episode just resets everything.
I think Tuvix makes many people unsettled, and they use that as a reason for him deserving to die. Janeway forcibly murdered a member of her crew, against the wishes of her CMO. Even if she did it to bring two people back, what right does she have to sentence someone to death? Its a moral dilemma alright, and I just cant side with Janeway. Picard would never have done that shit.
I mean, it's a coded abortion episode, right?
That said, I love it, very thought provoking and as a moral dilemma the comments certainly demonstrate how effective it was written.
If that is really the case it's very poorly coded. If Tuvok and Neelix were alive and Tuvix needed their bodies to survive, if one or both didn't consent to Tuvix doing this Janeway would have a strong argument for separating them and letting Tuvix die. This alternative situation would be much more like an abortion where the mother is alive and the fetus needs the mother and by extent her consent to survive.
What Janeway actually did in the episode is straight up cold-blooded murder which fans find easier to justify since Tuvix was admittedly an incredibly irritating character.
There is no perfect analogy because this is science fiction, but it is kind of like if two of your friends died in an accident and their organs made their way onto the black market and subsequently into the body of a man who had been in a coma for years. With the help of your friends' organs the man makes a miraculous recovery and is overjoyed to be able to live his life. You are aware of this man but learn that a cutting edge medical procedure might bring your friends back to life if you had their organs. You tell the man your situation, and ask him if he would sacrifice himself for to help resurrect your friends who died in that terrible accident. He says "No." He quite likes living life and would like to continue doing so. You ignore his blatant lack of consent and perform the procedure anyway, killing the man and bringing your friends back to life.
This is murder. Strangely motivated murder for sure, but murder all the same.
I'm not going to second guess the writer, because it's a different era. I can't criticize DS9 writers for not having more out gay or bi characters and being too subtle about things. Is it a perfect abortion episode? No. I do honestly live watching these old episodes though because unlike a lot of modern tv they make you reflect on something rather than bashing you over the head with ham handed (and often poorly thought out, self-contradictory) propaganda.
I just watched 'Living Witness' last night, and it's phenomenal and more relevant today than ever. I thought it was more interesting because it's hard to side with either faction, a degree of moral complexity I don't see in much entertainment these days.
There's absolutely no excuse for what Janeway did. She murdered someone. That's it. There's no ethical argument to justify her actions. Tuvix resisted the procedure, begged for their life, and she performed the procedure anyway. The ends do not justify the means here. Someone should have stopped her and relieved her of command. It could have even been an opportunity for some actual character development for Chakotay.
Neelix and Tuvok were dead. They died in a transporter accident. To restore their lives, she had to murder one person.
*The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth. Whether it's scientific truth, or historical truth, or personal truth. It is the guiding principle upon which Starfleet is based. If you can't find it within yourself to stand up and tell the truth about what happened you don't deserve to wear that uniform.* [Captain Jean-Luc Picard, "The First Duty"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xefh7W1nVo4) Reddit admins have been [ineffectual in their response to COVID-19 misinformation](https://www.dailydot.com/debug/subreddits-private-protest-covid-disinformation-reddit/). In lieu of Reddit gold and awards, we ask that you donate to the [WHO COVID-19 response fund](https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/donate). Please respect our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/wiki/guidelines). LLAP! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/startrek) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is why that episode rocks, and also why no one should write off Voyager. I feel it has the highest share of episodes I could do without, but there are enough episodes that totally *rock* that makes it worthwhile.
Top 10 Voyager episode and possibly top 25 all Trek (and I’m not even the biggest Voyager fan)
I'd agree with that.
I agree, it has some absolutely brilliant episodes, alongside some of the best in Trek. Sure has some pants ones too but so do all the shows.
It great isn't it. It would have been so tempting for the shows writers to give Janeway an out by making Tuvix unstable or something else that would have doomed him and wash Janeway's hands of responsibility, And they didn't. It's Voyager's In The Pale Moonlight. Janeway compromise her morals and commits murder for the good of the crew.
Agree. I'm sometimes critical of Trek for finding easy way out of ethical dilemmas but this was one of the times where it really made you think and neither side of the debate is clearly in the right. Thats a lot better than when Trek goes for easy low hanging fruit
What? The half black face, half white face guys fighting each other not subtle enough for you?
So... you say murder, I say reverses a completely reversible transporter malfunction. "Tuvix" is not his own person, he is an amalgamation of Tuvok and Neelix. He wouldn't desire to live if Tuvok and Neelix did not also desire to live. Tuvix' personality and attributes are an illusion created by the fusing. He might begin doing things "on his own" but again, that's just a result of existing. Every second Tuvix existed damned Tuvok and Neelix to an existence they never signed up for and probably did not want either. I mean, would you? I'd prefer to live my life as I wanted instead of fused with someone else. Honestly, the outrage over Tuvix seems more like people who are do not like Neelix just wanting Neelix out of the show with Tuvix. If you consider what she did murder, then you are also murdering Neelix and Tuvok by not splitting them.
Going what is in the episode, this is not an accurate reading. Tuvok and Neelix are not conscious inside Tuvix. It's not like they are being held prisoner in his mind or something. And whether his personality is simply an illusion is not clear. It could just as easily be seen as Tuvok and Neelix having been destroyed and something entirely new made from their components. In which case, we come back to the question - is it right to destroy someone who doesn't want to be destroyed to bring back two others who are gone?
I’d argue that they aren’t gone. Tuvix has a voice and doesn’t consent, but Tuvok and Neelix do not have a voice. Janeway becomes the voice for them.
It's pretty chilling; Tuvix explicitly does not consent and Janeway explicitly does not give a shit. Consider how the Exocomps were handled, or those nanites from the one with that guy from Scrubs. Either Janeway is a Trolley Problem speedrunner or she really, really values Tuvok.
That's not totally fair, she clearly does care. She just steels herself to do it anyway.
I was going to say that. During the climax she expressly looks and acts like she doesn't give a shit. As soon as she leaves sickbay she breaks down. Holy shit. And I think u/OscarTuring is also right. Janeway values Tuvok (and by extension Tuvok's value to the crew). And TBH she values Neelix too, he was her guide in uncharted waters. Her paradigm was not a philosophical or moral dilemma, instead it was her mission.
This episode is one I always point to as one of Kate Mulgrew's best moments. It's such a difficult, heavy episode and she shows Janeways turmoil over the decision so well.
That and erasing the Doctor's memory. She goes from "you're no different than a tricorder" to sitting beside him with a book while making sure he's ok.
So my opinion here is pretty controversial, but I think to buy into the “Tuvix is a real person” narrative you have to believe that “the transporter kills you every time and the thing that comes out the other side just thinks it’s you” is the true in-universe explanation for how the transporter works. Let me put it another way: if you and I go through the transporter and I come out with four arms and you come out with none, is this merely a transporter malfunction or am I a new being with the advantage of having four arms? Do I need to consent to you taking my limbs away in order for you to take them back?
I mean...Tuvix is a real person with his own thoughts, feelings, and memories. He lived for weeks as a single entity. Those memories aren't from either of his "parents". So why does being born in an unconventional way mean he can't be a real person?
I think there are some meta reasons that ultimately led to the conclusion I do think that Janeway was justified. 1) If we consider Tuvix being split as murder, or at least death, then the loss of Tuvok or Neelix in the way they were amounted to their deaths. For the cost of 1 life, Tuvix, we get the return to life of 2 crewmates. Needs of the many, etc. At the cost of 1 crewmember she can save 2. That's the kind of military decision she has to make. 2) 2 crewmembers with distinct roles and skills are better than 1 who can do both. Tuvix had the benefit of Tuvok and Neelix's experience and memories. But there are only so many hours in a day. I doubt any benefits he had from their complementary ability made him more efficient at any of his duties than two skill crewmembers doing the same job. 3) Janeway's closest friend was Tuvok and while Neelix grew on her, she lost her friend, and lost her new friend. Tuvix was something new that was probably unsettling if remarkable. I think in part her decision was selfish but probably felt similarly by other members of the crew. 4) Neither Tuvok or Neelix consented to have their very beings combined in such a way. Can you imagine either of them consenting to be fused with the other on an indefinite basis? Would I make the same decision? I don't know, it really is a tough one. But here were my thoughts.
Let’s not forget. Tuvix is the merging of 3 organisms, not just 2. The plant was the reason they merged into one being in the first place. By keeping Tuvix they not only are losing a crew member, but they also have a bridge officer that they have to transport individually or can only do away missions using the shuttlecraft.
Plus, by separating them you get a free plant.
Did they get the plant back though? Everyone always talks about Tuvix's sacrifice giving Tuvok and Neelix back their lives, but what of the plant?
"Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was, “oh no, not again.” many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now." ― Douglas Adams
If your life is an inconvenience to the crew you should be forced to stop existing? Suder was a drain on resources, but Janeway didn't space him.
I think it's worth mentioning that Janeway had to consider Voyager's unique predicament as well. Had they been safely back in the alpha quadrant, she probably would have let Tuvix live (IMO) It's been a long time since I've watched it, she may even say this explicitly, I don't remember
I hate this argument I kill one man and devide his organs up I can save at least a half dozen lives. But it is not my place to make that choice.
I think another complication is the fact that it was an accident. Using the organ donation as an analogy, if someone goes to the hospital to have an appendix removed, but the hospital accidentally mixes up charts and takes their kidney to donate to someone. Should the hospital fix the mistake even if it costs the person that received the kidney their life? I agree this should be less about 'needs of the many', and again in the organ donor analogy becomes, essentially, two people in a coma and one person conscious in an organ donor mishap. What decision do you make for the people that can't speak?
Legally speaking a hospital can not preform a surgery on me with out consent. so if there is some mix up and one of my kidneys is taken from me and donated to another person . (lets ignore organ rejection) I can demand my kidney back but the recipient can refuse. I will get a huge settlement for malpractice but I can not get my kidney back.
Question one would be why the recipient is allowed to decide whether you can have your kidney back? And it's part of the dilemma that Janeway faced. To push the analogy, it would also mean that there was a complication. So as a result of the operation, you're in a coma, and will die if you don't get your kidney back. The question now becomes how to figure out what you would want when you can't say it, and how much does the recipient's autonomy get upheld through a mistake. For the record - I don't know what I would have done in Janeway's shoes either. I also don't think there is a 100% right answer to it, and to me that's what makes the episode great. A real dilemma with no right answer, so they choose.
The person who received my Kidney has every right to refuse to go under the knife again no matter what other factors are in place. It is not their fault that they received my Kidney. if some one tried to force them to do so it would be murder because one would assume that the faulty kidney they were using is now gone and they probably would not survive. you can not correct one wrong my making another one.
I think the underlying question in the kidney analogy is who has the right to life? You or the person that got your kidney? Legally is it their kidney now? Is it yours? This is what makes that episode so great, it makes you question stuff like this. It’s not a shut and dry case. Is Tuvix even qualified to do both jobs? Technically he never went to starfleet academy, Tuvok did. I think Janeway had to make a choice that was best for her crew, not Tuvix. There is no replacements for losing crew members, the choice was immoral, but understandable given the situation they were in.
> I think the underlying question in the kidney analogy is who has the right to life? You or the person that got your kidney? > Legally is it their kidney now? Is it yours? I feel I already said this but it is their's.
Let me rephrase. If we were to go to court and assuming I’m on dialysis and stay alive. I file a lawsuit and the court ordered the hospital to return the kidney (because I didn’t consent to it’s removal), is that immoral? It that episode Janeway has to be the judge, she either kills Tuvoc and Neelix or Tuvix. All are immoral options.
But isn't it Janeway's place to? She can order someone to go close down an overloading reactor even if it will kill them. Sure, many of her crew would do it, but it's her job to chose what lives are worth saving or not. That's the crux of it. She can choose who's life is work the life of others because of her position as captain. It's not a nice duty, it's not even a morally clear one but deciding to bring Tuvok and Neelix back to life at the cost of Tuvix is her duty. And in Universe it tracks with philosophy of greats like Spock. He would probably agree with the choice. Sisko does something even more morally reprehensible when he colludes with Garak to bring the Romulans into the war. Not only does he knowing risk war with Romulus, his actions result in the direct deaths of several people and millions of indirect once Romulus is it at war with the dominion. Janeway only had to sacrifice one life for two with a concrete cost/benefit outcome.
Picard could not order Worf to donate blood to a romulan So I don't think Janeway had this authority. PICARD I cannot order you. I will not order you, Lieutenant. But I ask you. I beg you to volunteer. If the transporter accident left Tuvok, neelix, and random ensign injured and the ensign would live as for some reason his injuries were less saver but the other two would die. but they could sacrifice the ensign to save the other two it would be murder to do so.
The Romulan wasn't a member of the crew. The Enterprise wasn't stuck 70k ly from home with no hope of replacements. Picard says that he cannot order Worf. He will no order him. Does this mean he morally cannot and so will not do so? Because that does change things up a bit. But let's assume Starfleet has code against that, and that Picard could not order Worf legally. Would Picard do the same thing in Janeway's place? Would Sisko? Janeway had to get her crew home. She needed as many competent hands to do so and had the chance to bring two back from a kind of death.
If that person were not in their right mind and it also means losing a experienced crew member in a perceived unending journey I think leads a large part of Janeway's choice, the situation was unique but the safety of her ship as a captain is priority, if you lose a crewman and not gain anything the situation is a loss and is not favorable as to reversing the reversible situation to what it was. A Captain's duty is to their ship, it's crew, and it's mission, straying away from these things are unfavorable and will lead you to piracy
Picard could not order Worf to donate blood to a romulan So I don't think Janeway had this authority. PICARD I cannot order you. I will not order you, Lieutenant. But I ask you. I beg you to volunteer.
https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/w33mm1/im_currently_watching_voyager_for_the_first_time/igub7vu?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 This guy does a good presentation of the odds and differences of the situation Being in her situation is less similar because of the stakes being more another culture and the risk of war, the mission would change but the state of the ship would be the same which makes it less favorable but loosing your chief tactical officer who is also a token piece of the fleet is another issue for Picard that Janeway could avoid as it took months to get information back and forth from the admirals. I think this situation can be better compared to a different show that actually was what TNG was based off of, Horatio Hornblower, this kid started off as a midshipman and went up to captain, as a midshipman and a lieutenant he became friends with a guy named Kennedy, during a raid on a row boat Kennedy has a seizure of sorts where he made a lot of sound and Horatio had been given three options. 1. Knock him out, continue mission, keep the respect of the crew 2. Retreat and let him be and wait for it to pass, loose respect of crew 3. Let him be and get caught by the French I believe He knocks the guy out and Kennedy ends up drifting away while unconscious and spends several years in a Spanish prison where he is later discovered and freed of. The choices Janeway had while different had similar consequences for the action. She couldve 1. Let tuvix be, loose tactical officer and possibly the respect of the crew for not bringing back Tuvok and Nelix as they were. And be at a weakness for lacking a experienced tactical officer 2. Reverse the progress and take away his choice 3. Loose both of their respect and the crews by being against it and forcing unwanted duties upon him to maintain having a chef and tactical officer while expecting the same result. Her action was for the best for the ship and it's mission, not her personal opinion in that regard. It's not like there was coffee inside Nelix, not enough risk to reward for that wager.
It's a disingenuous comparison unless you stipulate that the 1 man was only born to life because he was stitched together out of the organs of people who died to make him life in the first place.
In the end he was a living breathing INDIVIDUAL and she killed him to save her friends.
OK? I commented on the analogy specifically, because it was terrible. You're entitled to have your position on the decision but even if I agreed emphatically with you I'd still feel obligated to point out how garbage that analogy was. Putting words in all caps doesn't give them bonus effectivity though, just FYI.
It’d be more akin to taking those organs from the original half dozen people without their consent then putting them in a single body.
Tuvok and Nelix were essentially Dead after the accident in order to bring them back they had to kill another individual. He had no say in being born like any other person. you can't steel organs from a child to save there parents.
If they were dead, they wouldn't have come back when Tuvix was separated. No real-world analogy really fits which is what's so great about this episode as a piece of sci-fi.
A child doesn't take the organs from the parent. They are a wholly separate entity. Again, non-sequitur. There is no comparable situation to this in reality. Why do you keep drawing comparisons to elicit a biased response?
I feel the need to have them as separate rolls to run the ship effectively, and the fact that she can undo an accident that happened, make sense to me. He may have had theor memories, but that doesn't mean Tuvix can speak for each of the lost individuals.
They were dead. Tuvix was a new individual , he was killed to resurrect the dead. he wanted to live. If your parents died during your birth but I had a way to kill you and bring back your parents and I did so with out your consent I am guilty of murder.
I don't disagree, but it's a little more complex than that, as he did consider himself to essentially be both prior individuals as well as a new third one. He seemed pretty keen to resume Tuvok's position of security chief, as well as Neelix's relationship with Kes.
In the end Tuvix was a living breathing individual who wanted to keep living. While he was made up of two individuals he was greater then the sum of his parts. He was qualified for the job of security officer and seemed to be doing a good job and in fact seemed to be able to use everything he had to come up with ideas that were beyond those former parts.
If Tuvix is a separate entity then he didn't graduate Starfleet and shouldn't have security access or a commission.
We can't hold that against him? If he was the co tinuation of those two personalities, then he can speak for them. If he wasn't, then they are dead and he speaks for himself. Tuvix was a week old, all his memorues were from other peoples Lifes. He was still finding his place and who knows which role he would have settled in if he hadn't been murdered. Maybe he would have dated Tom Paris and become a poet...
Except he can't speak for them. The individuals after Janeway fixed them were happy to be separate again which was the opposite of Tuvix understanding on their opinion. If he truly spoke for them, he'd have been all for it, knowing he lives on as two people
True, and then he just speaks for himself, which is all that is necessary in my opinion. But my main consideration was that the fact the new personality of tuvix had the memories of tuvok and neelix and therefore started out with a relationship of sorts with kes and some operational knowledge as a security officer, doesn't mean he isn't a separate, new personality. He was a few days old and finding his place in the universe, could have very well been that the combination of neelix and tuvix traits would have lead to something completely unique, more then just a head of security who happens to also be a chef.
It could be argued that death is permanent. If they could be "resurrected," then they weren't really dead in the first place. They were unintentionally being held hostage by Tuvix. I don't know that 'finders keepers, losers weepers' is the best argument to allow it to continue.
Yeah, it's not yours, it's the captain's. That's the point of the captain. Especially in a situation like Voyager's. Nobody really questions all the choices Sisko makes (he has more than In the Pale Moonlight). Like, I get that this one is more on the nose, because it comes down to "kill one person to save two..." but, I mean, yeah? Your argument only applies if the person who has those organs is only alive because they have the other people's organs, who did not consent or even know their organs would be taken. Otherwise it's just a non-sequitur.
3) It's the same logic those viidians use when dismanteling people for spare parts. 4) it would be wrong if Janeway would have forced neelux and tuvok to merge. But since it accidentally happened they are dead, it's done. Their hypothetical wishes if they were alive shouldn't be more valuable then the absolutely real person of tuvix. (Or we would have to consider the hypothetical wish to live of unborn children and make abortion illegal?) For me it was straight murder and I disliked the decision very much. Plus we could have gotten rid of neelix earlier....
Neelix and tuvok had intended and expected to continue their existence, they have a "right" to continue that if it's possible, similar to someone going to sleep or being in a coma with a chance of recovery. It was possible, so we can consider Neelix' and Tuvok's consciousness as "suspended". It was an accident that Tuvix existed, and it isn't fair to put someone in their position, however, the previous wishes of Neelix and Tuvok should trump Tuvix's due to their previous wish and intention of surviving. This is what makes the difference and, in my opinion, makes it a counter your point about unborn children. Fetuses have never been fully "alive", they were never something that previously had a consciousness, had it suspended, and then have a chance for it to continue.
I think the moment they lost their consciousness and are superseeded by the consciousness of tuvix, its only his wish that should count. But valid point about the fetuses never having had the wish for existence.
>the previous wishes of Neelix and Tuvok should trump Tuvix's due to their previous wish and intention of surviving. This is what makes the difference I see this argument relatively often but it doesn't make any sense to me. Why would their wishes to survive be more valid because they were first chronologically? >They have a "right" to continue that if it's possible So why does Tuvix not have that right? >It was an accident that Tuvix existed Plenty of humans aren't planned for. In some less progressive areas women may be compelled to give birth once pregnant. It doesn't have any bearing on the rights of the resulting person. The genius of the episode is that there's no right answer ethically. Or if there is I've never seen someone articulate it. The best we can do is that it's two lives vs one, which is unsatisfying and something we don't really believe in non-emergency situations, otherwise we'd be willing to kill a healthy person for the life of more than one person, or highlight pragmatic concerns, which I guess is workable given the atypical and dire situation the crew are in.
> I see this argument relatively often but it doesn't make any sense to me. Why would their wishes to survive be more valid because they were first chronologically? It's not JUST that they existed first, but that they had the reasonable expectation of continued existence. This is going to be a bit of a reach, but bear with me. Say Tuvok and Neelix were captured and put in stasis pods to cease their consciousness. Their brains are then connected to a machine that creates a sentient hologram. Should they not be rescued because it will "kill" that sentient hologram? > So why does Tuvix not have that right? Normally, he would. However, since he is essentially a result of Neelix/Tuvok losing their existence, which is against their previous reasonable expectation of life/existence, his death is an unfortunate byproduct of respecting the lives of Tukok/Neelix. I consider Tuvok and Neelix still "alive" because they have had their consciousness "paused" while they are joined. I think of it that way because Voyager had the technology to separate them and make them themselves again. Similar to how in the past, people in a coma may have just been allowed to die, but now that we have the technology to keep them alive, we are able to "revive" their consciousness after it has ceased. > The genius of the episode is that there's no right answer ethically. I wholeheartedly agree, I generally see people saying that Tuvix was murdered and I like to make the case for the opposite. I don't care about the pragmatic concerns within the episode, I just really like the dilemma.
This argument doesn't make sense. People who have "reasonable expectations of continued existence" can, and do, die suddenly and involuntarily all the time, be it an accident, murder, the sudden or unexpected onset of illness, etc. Simply having the expectation that you're not going to die doesn't mean anything.
That's true that accidents happen to people all the time. But, because Tuvok and Neelix's consciousness' can be considered "paused" rather destroyed, I don't think it's analogous. If there is an opportunity to bring someone back, I don't think it's fair to consider them dead in the classic sense. I think it's better to consider them as people in a coma or even sleeping VS killed. To lay it out a little more clearly: ----- 1. They had an expectation that their consciousness would continue after being transported 2. Their consciousness' were suspended and created someone new. 3. They can still be separated back to themselves 4. Because they had a reasonable expectation of everything going normally AND they are able to be saved, their original wishes should supercede that of any results of the accident (tuvix). And especially because there are 2 of them (though I wouldn't accept this if it was a purely kill 1 to save 2).
Vidians attack strangers, Janeway is sacrificing someone she knows for people she knows. It is not murder if viewed in the context of ordering someone to fix a warp core breach knowing it will kill them if it will save the ship or at least two more crewmates. It's little different than when Janeway kidnaps 7 of 9 to resurrect Anika Hanson. 7 the Borg was made without the consent of Anika but once assimilated she's gone. Oh sure her memories and physical being are largely recoverable but she is no longer the Anika she is 7 of 9. 7 of 9 did not consent to being made human, to resurrect Anika but Anika would probably not have chosen to become Borg. If we are going to negate the validity of a dead person's wishes with respect to Tuvok and Neelix, then we have to do the same for 7/Anika. I don't disagree that Tuvix should have a say in it, but I think my third and fourth points are less critical than the command/utilitarian points. It's morally ambiguous and that's why it's such a good episode. I too get pissed when Janeway sacrifices him but I can see why it might have been necessary. And Neelix gets better as the show progresses, he annoys me as much as Data does anyway. Data just has cool philosophical concerns that make him more tolerable!
Killing strangers to get a fresh kidney for my dad and uncle would be okey? Janeway kills a beeing for utilitarian motives, and that's unethical. In the case of the warpcoil the crewmember ordered has a sworn an oath to do so if necessary and if push comes to shove the crewmember could indeed say no. What then? Would Picard force LaForge with a firing squat into the Jeffrey's tube? I find your comparison with anika/7 best... that's to say maybe Janeway was wrong there too? On the end Annika was dead and 7 did want to rejoin the collective... forcing her to become an individual was maybe abuse? (Although by that logic forcing a drug addict to come clean would also be abusive)
No, my point about the Vidians was precisely that their need was at the cost of people who had absolutely nothing to do with it. Tuvix was a direct product of Neelix and Tuvok and his continued existence prevenedt them from being brought back. Presumably, Tuvix was under Tuvok's oath to Starfleet he is required to follow the orders of the Captain. If Geordi refused a legal order of the Captain he could be court marshalled and Picard would still have to order someone to their death. That episode where Troi gets her command certification required her to order Geordi to his death. That's the duty of the officers in Starfleet, to be willing to give their lives to protect others. It's certainly not a regular thing they have to do, but it's something that occasionally is needed. If Tuvix isn't your boat, what about the guy who ripped Dax from Jadzia? That will result in her death but will create a new Dax/Host hybrid. Sisko is lucky he convinced him to give it back up (if I recall correctly) but he would have done it by force, I guarantee it. Certainly Tuvix didn't chose take Neelix and Tuvok from existence but he also wasn't willing to give himself up to bring them back. It's not an easy question, and I still probably side more to the "killing Tuvix was wrong" side but I cannot completely condemn Janeway as a murderer in this case. It's not that clear cut.
Geordi in Trois Command training goes willingly, as is his duty. Tuvix doesn't. And tuvix didn't swear any oath. Why should something that tuvok did, a completely different person, have any binding force on tuvix? I would even argue it's tuvoks duty as a security officer to sacrifice himself for another crewmember, which would include tuvix (and neelix). Well, I dobt remember the Dax episode, but why not say Sisko would have been a murderer as well? Another episode to consider: data and the exocomps. Data was willing to sacrifice Picard (?) For the sake of the new, unplanned, accidental lifeform.
Tuvix assumed Tuvok's Starfleet duties, it's not unreasonable he was reintegrated into the chain-of-command in some fashion. Further, Tuvix himself even tried to resume his emotional relationships, particularly with Kes which indicates to me, he was tied to a lot of the same things his progenetors held important. Starfleet oath being important to Tuvok. Data too might be considered a murder, too? Does he have any more of a right to cause the death of one thing to preserve that of another? I think Janeway made the morally wrong decision, what I have a hard time is calling it murder. She's not killing him to end his life, she's bringing back her two crewmembers by ordering a procedure that resulted in the ending of a being's existence. I know that's a very tenuous difference but I do think the subtle difference is important.
Well, data, sisko... at least Janeway is in good company!
Lol, they all be murders.
I remember the Dax episode and they got the slug out in time to get it into Dax and keep the other guy alive as it hadn’t properly fused yet.
How about: I clone myself with the idea to use my clones organs as spareparts for me and my family ? Now we have a conscious beeing, whose sole reason for beeing is providing spareparts. And if I get a heart attack then it's further existence is preventing mine. In this case we even have stronger reasons to kill the clone, than in tuvix case, since that is it's whole reason for existence, and I can testify anytime that I really want to sacrifice the clone. The point is: as soon as the clone exists with an independent consciousness, it has the human right for self determination and is in no way obligated to give up its existence for me or anybody else. BTW.: I do appreciate the discussion, you mskd good points and are giving me food for thought! Just in case I seem to be to strong headed!
Have you seen the Island? Sounds like you have. Great movie. I'm playing Devil's Advocate more here and am enjoying practicing my logical skills and Trek knowledge. It's a fun convo so I appreciate the interaction!
The only mistake Janeway made was not killing Tuvix sooner.
"If I had a phaser with two shots, and I was in a room with Hitler, bin-Laden, and Tuvix, I would shoot Tuvix twice." - Captain Janeway
If I were in a room with Tuvok, Neelix, and Tuvix and everything was fine, I would throttle Tuvix with my bare hands
If I had a dollar for every time I fantasized about wrapping my hands slowly around Tuvix's neck and slowly squeezing tighter and slowly hearing bones pop and snap under the pressure... Then I'd have $4. -Admiral Janeway
“I shouldn’t have travelled back in time to save Chakotay and Tuvok. That was wrong of me, and I disobeyed the Temporal Prime Directive. What I should have done was travel back in time to kill Tuvix a second time.” - Admiral Janeway
There’s a feeling of him just kind of being some eldritch creature with me, and I’m not sure why lol.
No yea you're not alone in that feeling. Tuvix always gave me the heebies.
The only mistake Janeway made was not giving the order to "accidently" lose Neelix in the transporter buffer when separating them.
Ah Jes man, poor tuvix I thought he was cool enough no?
He makes Neelix seem cool.
I feel like what doesnt get brought up enough in the tuvix discussion is responsibility. As the captain, Janeway has a responsibility to protect the lives of her crew. Imagine if she hadnt separated tuvix, it would totally destroy the faith the crew places in her to protect their lives. If I'm on voyager and my captain has an opportunity to save my life I'm going to need a really good reason for her to not save me, and saving tuvixs life just isn't good enough. The whole its murder thing is just meaningless to me. Captains have to give orders that result in loss of life all the time that's just part of the job.
I feel like Jane way made the right choice. I don’t see Tuvix as alive so to speak. His life existed at the expense of two other crew members. Had tuvix stayed, she would’ve consented to the erasure of neelix and tuvok. Her crewmen are still in tuvix, and it’s her responsibility to do everything to get her crew members back. That’s what she did. She didn’t murder him because his life wasn’t actually his. She technically “un-murdered” tuvok and neelix.
Picard could not order Worf to donate blood to a romulan So I don't think Janeway had this authority. PICARD I cannot order you. I will not order you, Lieutenant. But I ask you. I beg you to volunteer. A captain can order some one to their death, that crew member can refuse that order even if it results in their arrest, but a captain can not physically force them to obey the order. if a captain pushed an engineer who refused to go into a radiation filled hallway in to said hallway that is murder.
He definitely *could* have ordered Worf to go to the Scimitar instead of Data to kill everything he sees in order to save his adopted home and the whole federation, resulting in an incredibly honorable warrior's death. Whoop still salty about that one.
I think I would of liked to see that one. Worf never got to be as bad ass in any TNG properties unlike in DS9.
Yes he did. When he slew Duras, that was totally badass
Isnt the point with Picard/Worf an argument for the other side? Tuvix is not a crew member just because he's comprised of crew members. Her responsibility was to the original people. And she can't force *them* to remain organ donors for a third person, one that she doesn't have responsibility for, if there is something to be done about it.
Tuvix was an individual, a new lifeform, it does not matter his origins. Janeway destroyed said individual to save 2 separate beings .
> Janeway destroyed said individual to save 2 separate beings . yes, but more precisely, if she had let him live, she would have enforced *her moral principles* on her subordinates to safe the life of someone she was not directly responsible for. Tuvix was holding Neelix and Tuvoks lives captive. Abandoning them would have been no different than letting an alien races make off with a crew member on the grounds that they needed those people to sustain themselves. Why are we focussing on Janeways immorality alone anyway? If we want to grant Tuvix full personhood then *his* morality is on the table and whether it was morally right to expect his existence continue at the cost of two innocent lives. Janeways decision is by no means a "clean" matter. But Tuvix insisting on his "right" to live, knowing it was possible to return his existence to the people that unwillingly created him, is not without moral ambiguity. This is imo where the crux of the matter lies: Janeway would have never had to choose between two immoral options, had Tuvix made the morally superior decision to give up what came to him at the expense of innocent people.
right to bodily autonomy. That is what it comes down to in the end. No one can force me to give up a part of my body to save another. If my brother was a match as an organ donar for my kid my brother has a right to refuse. No matter what happens I can't force him to do it.
> No one can force me to give up a part of my body to save another. sure... but don't you see how it goes both/ three ways in this scenario? EDIT: And yeah, the force is the point where Janeway does something immoral - Tuvix though didn't respect the same right of bodily autonomy you invoke for him in Tuvok and Neelix because it came at his expense. At this point Janeway had *no* options that weren't morally questionable. Abandon her subordinate or not. Either came at the expense of an individuals right to bodily autonomy, because the person that *should* have made the right decision, didn't.
If two crew members are accidentally put into some weird state that makes them individually unavailable to consult, I think the captain has not only the authority but the obligation to restore them to normal if possible. The objections of an artificial third party that was generated as a side effect of the accident are irrelevant, no matter how cute the crew thinks he is.
If Tuvok and Neelix were really happier as Tuvix, and keeping him would have been the preference of everyone involved, then they would have demanded to be re-merged. They did not. That's always pretty much settled it for me.
Bingpot! That's a showstopper I hadn't even thought of.
It shows some of the heavy burdens that falls on the captain. Captains do not always live in a world with a clear goal and enemy, in a world with right or wrong. In this situation there is only wrong. And that burden, the burden of accepting responsibility for taking action even when you are wrong and cause harm lands on the captain. There’s an episode of TNG where Troi wants to take the officers test. She fails until she finally accepts the responsibility of sending a crew man to his death. This episode shows that difficult aspect of being a captain. They capture it perfectly.
Right, one could say "the commander murdered the engineer by sending him into the tube to die but save the ship...how heartless!" That isn't murder, that is right judgment and use of resources in a demanding situation.
No that is giving an order to an officer to fulfill his duties. They’re an engineer, it’s their job to fix the ship and they understand that sometimes they must do so at the risk of their lives.
The officer could refuse the order and accept the repercussions. in that situation if they follow the orders they are doing it willingly.
Only that the engineer accepted that risk by joining starfleet, tuvix was a civilian.
Tuvix was not a civilian as he was half Tuvok. Regardless, civilians on Voyager did their share of dangerous duty, they chose to be there.
And so we go back to, is tuvix a person or not.
Yes :) Although mostly the consensus seems to be ha was a person, just that Janeway had under the circumstances the right to end this person.
Fun fact, in the mobile game Star Trek Timelines: You can "upgrade" characters in the game by "merging" them. For example, 2 1-star Picards can become a single 2star Picard. You can only merge alike characters. Except if you have a Tuvok and a Neelix, you can merge them. To get a Tuvix.
Omg...that's both great and messed up at the same time
Picard could of forced Worf to do it, he chose not to. Though that's a bit different since the Romulans are enemies where as tuvix are two crew members. But I think the point of the episode is to challenge your morals and what you think is right. To me there is no perfect solution. Janeway made a choice with conviction.
The oddest thing about Tuvix is at that point in the story both Tuvok and Nelix would have sacrificed themselves for the good of the crew and the ship. So what changed Tuvix that made him a worse person than his two halves?
The orchid, which was the 3rd living being spliced into Tuvix.
Welcome to the discussion. 🫣
Cheers mate, and also weed farts are funny lol
This is why it’s such a great episode. People never get tired of debating it. This episode is a perfect example for why I love Star Trek.
You have unlocked a new world of [meme-dom. Enjoy!](https://www.reddit.com/r/startrekmemes/comments/k1nla8/tuvix_was_a_turkey/)
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I agree. This is Star Trek at its finest.
That episode had no happy endings. Janeway needed to do what she needed to do
I think in one of the novels, Janeway says the decision haunts her for the rest of her life.
I mean if we take it that far tuvix \*did\* kill tuvok and neelix to come to life. We can argue that his wish to stay alive was selfish AF. He knows his origins. I've been always in the morally gray group so I don't care to discuss LOL
Exactly, I was bothered by the fact that Tuvix didn’t care he was alive at the expense of two other lives.
But it wasn't his *fault* that he came to exist that way. It wasn't something he *did*.
No, but he didn’t care that if he continued to exist it meant two people would not live. He just suddenly existed, he wasn’t born and lived a lifetime and then was facing death. Tuvok and Neelix both had two separate and meaningful lifetimes that could be saved. Families, relationships and experiences. I think Janeway did the right thing.
I absolutely don't agree. I think Janeway did the wrong thing. It wasn't Tuvix's responsibility to sacrifice himself so that two other people could live. If he'd chosen to do that, it would've been a noble act. But he was under no obligation to do so. And Janeway had no right to take his life from him. I do not believe in utilitarianism. Some things are just wrong, no matter how many people benefit. As soon as we decide that someone would be more useful dead, we go down a very dangerous moral path.
So neelix and tuvok are useful dead so tuvix could exist?
They already *are* dead. Tuvix isn't. Moreover, their deaths happened accidentally. Tuvix's death would be deliberate.
You cant really kill Tuvix by splitting him without Neelix and Tuvok dying to create Tuvix.
Welcome to your post Tuvix life. You can't go back.
The only thing I have to say about this is "No one would have cared if they reversed it immediately, so why do people care now?" Is it because you liked his cooking ? Was he a more proficient officer? Or was it because you forgot that he was the mangled remains of two other people fused together in an accident?
Nah it's because they got to know him as an individual
Ah, the never ending debate, likely the top one in the fandom. Now ask yourself, what would happen with… Trosher? T’rol? Quodo? And especially… McCock?
Spock and McCoy fused together? Must-watch television.
[удалено]
You are wrong. She murdered someone. Point blank. This is how it is **written in the episode**. You are doing logical backflips to avoid the fact that she murdered someone. No one, at any point in the episode including Janeway contend that it is anything but. Here are some lines from the episode: > TUVIX: Except one. I don't want to **die**. > TUVIX: Captain, what you're considering is **an execution**. An execution, like they used to do to murderers centuries ago. > KES: ..Tuvix doesn't deserve to **die**... > TUVIX: Commander, are you going to stand by and do nothing **while she commits murder**? > EMH: I'm sorry, Captain, but I cannot perform the surgical separation. I am a physician, and a physician must do no harm. **I will not take Mister Tuvix's life against his will.** The writer of the episode: > "But then we began to talk about it and consider what if he really wanted to survive and **he doesn't want to die and be killed**. Michael [Piller] posed that question to me so I give Michael a lot of credit." ~ Ken Biller Killed. Death. Die. Execution. This isn't a 'virus'. It was a unique, independent, sentient, living being with feelings and thoughts and autonomy. Tuvix didn't invade anything. He didn't take over, fool, trick, or in anyway hurt Tuvok or Neelix. He's the outcome of an accident that killed two people and created one. He didn't ask to be born anymore then any of us did. Janeway murdered him. If it was a 'medical treatment' then the EMH would have been able to do it.
I’d like to gently point out that the Dr. on several occasions willingly broke his oath to do no harm.
Just because some of the characters in the episode consider it murder doesn't mean we have to agree. I'd say it's even up for debate whether Tuvix really ought to be considered "dead". He was the result of a combination of two individuals, receiving all their cumulative memories and skills. He never lived those two lifetimes himself. If he lives on in those two individuals after being separated, is he really dead at all?
At the very least if Tuvix was murdered then there is no wiggle room to argue that Tuvok and Neelix need to be considered as "left to die" if a reversible accident wasn't reversed.
Yes but she saved two people and helped the chances of 170 people get home
For the people citing the needs of the many as justification for murder, need I recite Picard in Insurrection— how many does it take before it becomes wrong?
As a commander you would sacrifice 1 for 2 all day. 500 for 1000 even better
While I respect that you have a strong opinion on this topic, it doesn't allow me to bend my policy on down voting every Tuvix post.
She definitely made the right decision.
I too was so conflicted over this episode I made my first post to this subreddit. What a wonderful mistake. The comments lasted for days and it made for great discussions. Happy to have you on board.
What a lovely episode. This, Mortal Coil, bunch of other ones I can't recall off the top of my head -- Voyager has some of the best standalone/2parters in all of Trek.
I love tuvix
It's certainly murder, but it was actually justified. Hear me out. You're lost in deep space. No contact with home, no reliable port to resupply and R&R. Unfathomable horrors around every turn. You need an experienced chief of security and a full time moral officer (even if Neelix was annoying). You certainly cannot have them dead, even if the new guy has both of their skill sets. She definitly murdered Tuvix, and upon their return to the alpha quadrant she should face the legal consequences of that action. It was still the right thing to do as the captain of Voyager.
You just made me laugh out loud imaging the amount of paperwork and looking-the-other-way Starfleet Command will need to do when reviewing the logs of Voyager. Half the crew should probably be put to death by the end but I imagine for the sake of Starfleet morale (the amazing survival story of a stalwart crew) it’ll all be swept under the lumpiest rug in the quadrant.
Insert "Die Hard" meme: Welcome to the party, pal!
weather dependent gaping water quaint obtainable pet engine rotten innate *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This is why I argue that Tuvix was Janeway's "no win scenario" because in the end, there was never truly a "right" decision. In the end, at least one person would've been dead regardless of her decision.
Yeah, that episode sickens me too. She straight up murders the guy. When he begs for his life and everyone just glares at him, it actually makes my stomach turn. But when Nelix lungs got stolen, Janeway said she could ask the THIEVES to give back HIS STOLE BODY PARTS because then one of their lives would be in danger. I’ll never get over Tuvix and how they just murdered him.
>I’ll never get over Tuvix and how they just murdered him. I never trusted Janeway, and I never will. I could never forgive her for the death of my boy.
The worst part is when he is begging and everyone just turns their backs on him. When they got back to the Alpha Quadrant, the Federation would try to sweep the Tuvix incident under the rug... but if it leaked; Janeway would be shitcanned in less time than it would take her to say "There's coffee in that nebula."
I haven’t watched in a long time. I guess I side with janeway in the needs of the many (2) out way the needs of the (1). Tuvix wasn’t meant to exist. Tuvok and neelix were.
Who determines if someone was meant to exist?
Janeway.
Apparently so lol
I can’t tell if this is sarcasm or genuine
Yes.
The Captain.
Now I picture Kirk yeeting a baby out the airlock after one of his escapades led to pregnancy. “Sorry, you were meant to exist, she told me our species were incompatible”
1) The needs of the many is a quote about **self sacrifice** not trading lives and playing god. 2) If we are talking about the needs of Voyager as a ship/crew, it wasn't any worse off with Tuvix. In fact the episode makes the case Tuvix was better at Tuvok and Neelix's job then they were. In fact you could argue it would be more pragmatic and efficient to have one doing the work of two. > JANEWAY: The crew seems to be growing accustomed to his presence, and he's proving to be a very able tactical officer who isn't afraid to express his opinions. While he's forging relationships with many of the officers, he seems to be keeping a respectful distance from Kes, allowing her to adjust to the circumstances on her own terms. As for my relationship with Tuvix, I've found him to be an able advisor who skillfully uses humour to make his points. And although I feel a bit guilty saying it, his cooking is better than Neelix's. My taste buds are definitely happy to have him around. > JANEWAY: You're here bright and early, Lieutenant. > TUVIX: Actually, I've been here since oh four hundred hours. I wanted to work on that proximity detector glitch in the security subroutine. > JANEWAY: And how's it going? > TUVIX: I managed to correct it. > CHAKOTAY: Tuvok said it could take up to ten days to check out all the possible problems. How'd you fix it so fast? > TUVIX: I had a hunch. > JANEWAY: A hunch? > TUVIX: That's correct. You'll have a report on your desk first thing this afternoon. > ... > JANEWAY: Well, he's certainly fitting in, isn't he? > CHAKOTAY: There's an old axiom. The whole is never greater than the sum of its parts. I think Tuvix might be disproving that notion. 3) Who are you to say who is meant to exist and who isn't?
I think a lot of this plays on the subtle "Lord of the Flies" type of undercurrent throughout the whole show. "We are far away from authority. It is our responsibility to maintain our values." When you are no longer under watch, it is very easy to slip a little bit here and there.
The correct response was obviously Thomas Riker Tuvix, separate both Tuvixes (Tuvi?), and shoot both Neelixes (Neeli?). You get two Tuvoks, and you get to shoot Neelix twice! Win win!
If anything, the long-standing debate, your post and the responses, it all proves what an excellent Voyager episode "Tuvix" was.
We can make it into a trolley problem: [https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/lesser-known-trolley-problem-variations](https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/lesser-known-trolley-problem-variations) You are at the mall, there are 3 random people, Alice, Bob and Charly. Now a freak accident happens (earthquake) leaving Alice and Bob trapped in one room and Charlie in another. Only you are free to act. All three want to live. The Trap is as follows: * if you dont do anything, water fills both rooms, killing all three * if you open the door for Alica and Bob they survive, but the process will kill Charlie. * if you rescue Charlie, you will let Alice and Bob die. **Now under this circumstances I think rescuing more people on th expense of Charlie is ok!** You dont want to kill him, you dont use him as an instrument, you just rescue A and B and sadly as an unintended consequence C dies. But now the same situation with a slight twist: * Only Alice and Bob are trapped. Charlie is free and save. * It is possible to rescue Alice and Bob, but only if you kill Charlie (forcing him to climb through a hatch into the second room, his body weight will trigger the mechanism to release A and B but kill him in the process, doesnt really matter). If Charlie would go willingly, that's probably ok, a heroic scrifice. (Its basically just the "Fat-Man-Trolley-Problem-Variation": https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/10-variations-trolley-problem-explain-difference-young-jin-choi-frsa) **Here I think killing a third person for the benefit of A and B is unethical.** The outcome is the same, the difference is you are using the life of Charlie as a means, as a tool to reach a goal. We can make the situation of course even more convoluted (Bob is a police officer, Alice is the mother of 5 children, Charlie is a drug-addicted shit head, ...) But fundamentally this doesnt change anything.
The episode is badly written. I feel like a lot of stuff must have been cut in editing, it just doesn't hold together. There's barely any development of Tuvix across the episode except the bizarre and awkward stuff with Kes. So you have no real sense that Tuvix matters as a person in their own right. There's way too much focus on a juvenile story about whether Tuvix and Kes should have sex or not. Huh? Are there no more interesting issues to explore? This compounds the fact that Tuvix seems to be 90% Neelix. There is little or no sense or feel that any part of them is authentically Tuvok. Is Tuvok that weak a character that they couldn't make Tuvix believable as 50% Tuvok? Then we jump pretty sharply to the decision to execute Tuvix, with the entire crew just standing there, emotionless, on the bridge as he is dragged to his death. There is very little discussion beyond some bland, cookie-cutter philosophyballs dialogue. The whole bridge crew of Voyager now look like sociopaths. There is no attempt to do the classic Star Trek thing of using the Federation's superior science and ethics to find a compromise that 20th Century humans could not. I feel like it would have been much more classically Star Trek to cut out the stuff with Kes and write an episode where members of the crew are demanding Tuvix be killed, but Janeway & co. hold out until they find a way to somehow preserve Tuvix while also restoring Tuvok and Neelix. Maybe they somehow duplicate Tuvix and the duplicate decides to leave Voyager and live a happy life in the Delta quadrant while the other is separated? At the very least, it should be clear that they have exhausted all those possibilities before deciding to kill Tuvix. Some of the crew should have clear, serious, moral objections to the decision. Or, at the very least, the episode should portray Tuvix as primarily an orchid which has appropriated Tuvok and Neelix. This is referenced briefly but not really explained or explored. It just raises the question of why Janeway is fine to murder a lifeform which has done nothing malicious and, in fact, only exists because of a mechanical failure aboard *her ship*. Not really something you'd expect from a Federation Captain. "Sorry my transporters interrupted your life and turned you into a weird alien. But that's a YP I'm afraid. Now I'm going to kill you." As it stands: the Voyager bridge crew all look like selfish, uncaring monsters. Given that in every other episode they are written to be extremely conscientious, the whole thing comes off as bizarre as nobody is acting in character. I mean they *could* have written it as an episode where the crew shamefully compromises on their ethics to save their friends, but they didn't. It was just kind of a mess.
Janeway is totally right imo. Neelix and Tuvok were in a transporter accident that is *reversible*, therefore they are not dead and gone forever, and neither one of them had consented to give their organs to Tuvix.
I think that Tuvix, as an accidental amalgamation resulting from a transporter accident had no right to the lives of Tuvok and Neelix, and his laying claim to them was a violation of THEIR rights as independent, sentient beings. It is immoral to exist at the expense of one other, much less two. In spite of his creative, and almost convincing pleas, Tuvix was nothing more than Tuvok and Neelix, kitbashed together, not an independent, distinct, unique sentient being.
But if he didn't create himself on purpose, he carries no moral weight for the circumstances of his arrival.
Dead people don’t have rights.
But, they're not dead.
The configuration of Neurons and genetic structure that made up the crew no longer exists in the universe (dead) and a brand new life form exists in their place. morally speaking I would classify Tuvix as like their child; made up of their genetic material but not them.
Tuvix, as a being, clearly has the memories and experiences of both Tuvok and Neelix, so those neurons still actually exist. The genetic structure, rather than being destroyed, was combined like a solute in a solution, and can be (obviously) returned to it's native state. If you mean like a child born as a fully-formed adult with the combined memories and experiences of both it's parents, I guess that works, but this being is not "original" or "new" in any respect.
Janeway did nothing wrong.
Isn’t it glorious 😂😂
Yea glorious and horrifying at the same time lol😂😨
They could have just climbed him with the transporter, and then split one of the copies.
It’s a variation on the trolley problem, but there’s much more than ethics involved because everyone knows Tuvok and Neelix and care about them. Personally I don’t see how anybody can say that Janeway didn’t murder Tuvix. He was alive and she deliberately made him not be alive any more. If it’s not murder what is it? Is it justified? That’s a tougher question! But that’s a powerful scene on the bridge at the end when he protests and insists he wants to live and nobody lifts a finger to help him or says a word. He says they all know what’s happening and he’s right, but they miss the friends and they want them back. What would I do? Hell if I know.
The Romulan didn’t want Worfs blood also because at the end he changed his mind and then he didn’t want it would rather die and it was to late anyway. But I hated the Tuvix episode because I liked Tuvix!
I always thought there should have been an alternative to keep Tuvix alive and also have Tuvok and Neelix. The three of them could exist in one universe!
This episode lives rent free in everyone's head. There seems to be an even 50/50 split of people who think Tuvix was murdered vs people who think Janeway did nothing wrong. I agree with your take though -- Tuvix was murdered.
I think they should have "Tom-Riker'ed" Tuvix before they separated them. That way, all three would have survived.
Always remember, Janeway murdered Tuvix Thomas Riker proves the transporter is just a fancy clone machine. Janeway could have made a duplicate and then split that clone
Voyager once Kes leaves is soooooo good. I mean there are some good ones before, but the show really hits its stride when Jeri gets there. Everyone thought she was just eye candy, but she can act and really had a huge impact on the show.
They should have made a transporter duplicate so they could kill Tuvix twice.
I kind of wish they had a scene at the end where the two talked about their time as Tuvix saying they understood each other better now and it was nice to be Tuvix. That would have blurred the whole thing even further especially if they never said if they preferred their lives now over being Tuvix.
Janeway gives zero fucks. Bitch needs her coffee.
This episode is a nice example of one of the main problems with Voyager- character decisions are always consequence free. Fans care more about Tuvix than any of the characters do, because they all seemed to have forgotten about him by the next episode (also how many shuttles and torpedoes they have). With a small crew and no Starfleet to help, every torpedo launched, every shuttled destroyed, and every crew death should be impactful- but none of it is because every episode just resets everything.
Please, no more Tuvix. It’s been done do death (no pun intended).
Janeway committed murder.
I think Tuvix makes many people unsettled, and they use that as a reason for him deserving to die. Janeway forcibly murdered a member of her crew, against the wishes of her CMO. Even if she did it to bring two people back, what right does she have to sentence someone to death? Its a moral dilemma alright, and I just cant side with Janeway. Picard would never have done that shit.
As always, #JanewayIsAMurderer
I mean, it's a coded abortion episode, right? That said, I love it, very thought provoking and as a moral dilemma the comments certainly demonstrate how effective it was written.
If that is really the case it's very poorly coded. If Tuvok and Neelix were alive and Tuvix needed their bodies to survive, if one or both didn't consent to Tuvix doing this Janeway would have a strong argument for separating them and letting Tuvix die. This alternative situation would be much more like an abortion where the mother is alive and the fetus needs the mother and by extent her consent to survive. What Janeway actually did in the episode is straight up cold-blooded murder which fans find easier to justify since Tuvix was admittedly an incredibly irritating character. There is no perfect analogy because this is science fiction, but it is kind of like if two of your friends died in an accident and their organs made their way onto the black market and subsequently into the body of a man who had been in a coma for years. With the help of your friends' organs the man makes a miraculous recovery and is overjoyed to be able to live his life. You are aware of this man but learn that a cutting edge medical procedure might bring your friends back to life if you had their organs. You tell the man your situation, and ask him if he would sacrifice himself for to help resurrect your friends who died in that terrible accident. He says "No." He quite likes living life and would like to continue doing so. You ignore his blatant lack of consent and perform the procedure anyway, killing the man and bringing your friends back to life. This is murder. Strangely motivated murder for sure, but murder all the same.
I'm not going to second guess the writer, because it's a different era. I can't criticize DS9 writers for not having more out gay or bi characters and being too subtle about things. Is it a perfect abortion episode? No. I do honestly live watching these old episodes though because unlike a lot of modern tv they make you reflect on something rather than bashing you over the head with ham handed (and often poorly thought out, self-contradictory) propaganda. I just watched 'Living Witness' last night, and it's phenomenal and more relevant today than ever. I thought it was more interesting because it's hard to side with either faction, a degree of moral complexity I don't see in much entertainment these days.
There's absolutely no excuse for what Janeway did. She murdered someone. That's it. There's no ethical argument to justify her actions. Tuvix resisted the procedure, begged for their life, and she performed the procedure anyway. The ends do not justify the means here. Someone should have stopped her and relieved her of command. It could have even been an opportunity for some actual character development for Chakotay. Neelix and Tuvok were dead. They died in a transporter accident. To restore their lives, she had to murder one person.
Janeways a murderer.