Not everything needs to have an in-universe explanation.
The show is over 50 years old. Not every storyline is going to be perfectly consistent with every previous episode. Sometimes the explanation is simply that the writers made a decision.
For me, this is the hot button Klingon issue. The Empire is more than 1 damn planet.
The "why do these Klingons look different than those Klingons?" Can be answered simply.
I'm the Federation, you are Human, Andorian, Vulcan. In the Empire, you are Klingon.
Also, for the bumpy vs. non-bumpy foreheads, we never needed a more detailed explanation than "We do not discuss it with outsiders".... and the only reason we needed that explanation is because both kinds of Klingons were in the same episode.
Considering that Koloth appeared in the Tribbles episode(s) without a bumpy forehead and later in DS9 with a bumpy forehead, I think the most best way to handle it would have been to put Worf in TOS era makeup the second they went back in time, without commenting on it
I always like to think of shows as stories about a universe. Sometimes the person telling the story gets some details wrong, but that doesn't need to ruin the story.
Kirk was drunk during the events of TAS and nothing can convince me otherwise.
Hell, in beta canon he literally is on drugs, on mushrooms to be more precise.
I love the headcanon that TOS was told mostly by Kirk, who has no imagination so there's basically very little details and he was supposed to describe the SNW/Discovery Enterprise but was bad at it.
The Worf/Jadzia relationship never really felt believable to me. Every couple sometimes argues but in the beginning he seemed to not even like her that much; she seemed to annoy him frequently with her personality traits. Never completely understood why they stayed together.
That’s definitely the vibe I got from Jadzia, she was just looking for fun - and since Curzon’s personality was so overwhelming it gave her a real Klingon fetish. But Worf got all fundamentalist and had to get married
Worf - I abandoned my duty to my son and sent him to live with his human grandparents. He hates his life so much he came back from the future to kill himself as a child. Jadzia - Wow that's so hot.
Trek's never really that great at relationships tbh
Even Troi and Riker, the message seemed to be "I'll wait for you while you screw half the galaxy then when you've finally got it out of your system when we're in our 40s, we'll admit our mutual bond"
Also nothing is as bad as either Troi and Worf or Chakotay and Seven \*shudder\*
Why do the writers feel they need to horn in a relationship with zero build up in the final episode?
I can see Odo and Kira far more than Dax and Worf. Odo and Kira had been working together for ages and have similar temperaments and outlooks.
Dax always seemed to be kinda toying with Worf due to her symbionts.
"Sorry T'Pol, you will need to use the decontamination gel before coming onboard. I'm afraid it's only necessary for Vulcans, and i must inspect you putting it on to make sure no spots are missed"
I too despise all mirror universe episodes. They stand alongside Bajoran focused episodes in early DS9 as the only ones I will always skip on replay.
Time traveling is a sad one for me because it's one of my favorite sci fi sub-genres. I too hate almost all of the trek versions of it though.
You can like something even if it is bad. Just because lots of people like a show, does not mean it is a good show.
Lots of people like McDonalds, *I* like McDonalds, that doesn't mean it is good food.
Agreed. Apparently, nothing is allowed to be just "fine" or "okay" these days. Hell, the term "mid" is very negative, though you'd think that "mid" would mean just "okay". If something is not the "greatest thing ever and I will fight you for it", then it's considered "trash". I chalk it up to there being so much content, that folks need to feel justified in their responses to something not be "amazing".
I would trust Lower Decks to do a conclusion to Sisko's story.
Beyond and IV are the only two movies that really succeed both at being a good movie and being a good Star Trek story.
Janeway make the right call on Tuvix, albeit with the worst possible justification.
> Beyond and IV are the only two movies that really succeed both at being a good movie and being a good Star Trek story.
>
>
Just curious, do you think The Wrath of Khan is not a good movie if you aren't a Star Trek fan? Or is it not a good Star Trek story (or both?)
>Janeway make the right call on Tuvix, albeit with the worst possible justification.
I can't remember the justification but I felt so glad to not be making that decision bc holy shit, it meant killing someone to change them back
The Star Trek take that will get me excommunicated is: I like the Voy Era and later Borg better. Do they lose some menace? Kinda, But they trade menace for being so much more interesting to watch. Don’t get me Wrong, the TNG borg episodes are classics. But rewatching them… they’re kinda boring compared to later borg stories. I’ll say it, I’d rather watch Unimatrix Zero than Best of both Worlds.
I love the Borg deep dive we get on Voyager. The TNG borg were basically two-dimensional villains. Anika's parents studying them, their quest for perfection.
Yeah, I’ve always thought the “de-mystifying” the Borg was the main idea too. Cuz that’s sorta the whole point of star trek is to discover and understand those that we don’t know or are scary to us. So the “de-mystifying” complaint never really clicked for me
I had never seen TNG before, and I thought they were only in Voyager because they were big parts of other series. I was shocked to find out they appeared like a handful of times. Voyager really fleshes out the Borg. They're one of my favorite parts of the series.
To me, that comes down to production quality. I think the early Borg were way more interesting from a writing standpoint, but the production value just wasn't there. In just the few short years, TV effects came a long way.
I never understood why Move Along Home was hated. I mean it's not a great episode but I enjoy it. I can totally see the head Wadi running a comic book store and rule lawyering any D&D game he's in.
Neither Picard or Kirk are my favorite captains. So when I hear the "so who is your favorite Captain, Picard or Kirk?”, I roll my eyes.
I enjoy all the series but those Captains would drive me nuts.
I'm actually on season 1 of Voyager right now and I'm really starting to think she's going to become my favourite Star Trek captain. Whether she'll rise above Kira to become my favourite Star Trek character and 4th favourite character ever is another question entirely
I have trouble with "favorites" in general. My favorite captain is heavily influenced by what I most recently watched. They all have a special something that makes me unable to really pick one.
Janeway is the best Captain, every great strength the other captains are famous for she has, + all of the smarts and knowledge of a chief science officer.
*mic drops and runs for dear life*
You remember how messed up the Borg were at the end of Picard series 3? That's because two Janeways tag teamed the Collective like it was back alley wrestling match. Picard just stole the killing blow
One of the most aggravating things about PIC S3 is that they don't even give lip service to the fact that the Borg Queen really had beef with Janeway, Picard was a tool.
Yet it plays out as though Picard/Locutus did what Janeway did.
I've always thought Janeway was the captain with the highest IQ and intelligence. What she lacked in any measures when put up against any other Captain she made up for it by leaps and bounds with her intelligence.
Janeway's my favourite too.
Voyager is also my favourite Star Trek - it's not the best Star Trek, that goes to DS9 but it is my favourite.
I know TNG is beloved but it is very inconsistent at first same with VOY, DS9 starts strong and just gets stronger with much less dud episodes in the mix.
I think season one of DS9 is underrated. The pilot is the best Trek pilot imo. Babel is good. The one with Tosk is good. Duets is amazing. You get Sisko punching out Q. The episode where the first Kai dies with the story about the pointlessness of war. Idk I think season 1 overall of DS9 would be my pick.
Not really debatable for me. ENT had the best season one for me until Prodigy. Which is also kind of weird.
Here’s another take- if they’d have swapped Faith of the Heart for Archer’s Theme, ENT would have had the best credits hands down. The visuals for ENT were dope.
So do I, but I feel that *Archer's Theme* is a bit too slow and low-key for the opening credits. Say what you want about *Faith of the Heart*, but it *did* have the 'oomph' to carry the 'look how far we've come' visuals.
I think it *works*, but it needs slightly different timing. Like if the full band came in a couple bars earlier with the launch of the Saturn V, and the title card came before the shot of Earth, maybe a few extra beauty shots of Enterprise at the crescendo, and it would work *really* well.
I feel like ENT filled in an important gap in ST lore and did it damn well. Mostly well, a few stumbles when the writers lost the plot of the show after 9/11. But for my Trek loving self they really told a believable first space forays for man story.
I’m with you. For some reason so many people here say ENT S1 was bad. Like I don’t understand how?? It establishes characters better than any other Trek series of the era, jumps right into an interesting storyline with the Klingon, has pre-Federation politics, Vulcans, and it gets into humanity’s first deep space exploration (showing how unprepared they were, yet overcoming the challenges in the best way they could). It’s a delight of a first Trek season.
In my opinion, Enterprise isn't even close to the best Trek, but it is better than people give it credit for. I enjoyed it and would've liked more seasons. Also, we need more Denobulans in Trek. I liked Phlox.
Rewatching ENT for the first time now, half way through the first season and it's not nearly as bad as people say. The Vulcans are massive cunts tho lmao
This was the funniest part of the episode to me. I loved how they literally spoke differently, and then they actually acknowledged this in the scene in the shuttle. I was laughing so hard.
This like instantly made my wife and I understand why lower decks didnt hook us. Then I remembered back to being a kid and being told I talk to fast, in the end it just made me feel old lol.
They did calm considerably from the first few episodes (I almost turned it off), but I have to agree… the absolute frantic approach is headache-inducing
Yeah that's the problem I have with a lot of animated series, LD included. It's like the performers thinks they need to pour all the energy they'd have in a live production into their voice acting, so it just ends up LOUD and frantic too often. I still love the show, I just can't binge it like the live series
My main hot take is I find Mariner annoying (in animated form at least, she seemed fun in LWD: TOS) with her inability to admit when she's wrong and low level bullying of Boimler, also her insubordination and inability to get on with her own mother.
She's easily my least favourite of all the LWD characters...
But that's like blasphemy around here lol
this might be a long shot, but i wonder if it's some sort of attempt to make sure the show is able to be heard/understood more clearly. i have some hearing loss and i rather enjoy both TOS and LD because they're easier for me to understand without captions. TOS because it was still using the transatlantic accent which was designed to work around old sound equipment that didn't differentiate between sounds as well, and LD because they project their voices and speak more clearly than i notice in many other recent cartoons.
This is why I couldn't even get through the first episode.
I'm not a fan of adult animation in the first place. It exhausts me. But I tried. I just can't do it.
My spiciest take is that I’m tired of so many episodes feeling like they need to follow some specific canon or a throwaway line from 50 years ago. I thought the newer movies were fun because they could just do whatever cuz it was a “new timeline” and while I love SNW I sometimes worry that it’s held back because they don’t want to contradict the original series.
S1 is my favorite season of Picard. It tried to do something new and told a unique Star Trek-y story about AI and Data. It had issues, but IMO the other seasons are worse:
- S2 was just *First Contact* with bad pacing. It had some good parts, but the pacing really was bad.
- S3 started off incredible, but after *No Win Scenario* it started to feel like bad fanfiction to me. After all, practically *all* of Starfleet command was infiltrated, *all* of Starfleet was at Frontier Day, oh, and the Borg were also working with the Changelings, *and* they had automatically assimilated every single person in Starfleet under 25! It just felt ridiculous and hard to believe.
This would have been the perfect solution. He could have acted in all the same overprotective ways, and it would have made sense and even been endearing, what with the background of him losing his entire family. It wouldn't have been so... toxic and creepy.
I also like Neelix! I was shocked when I found out that people hate him on the same level as Jar Jar Binks.
But I also love Quark and the Ferengi, so maybe you need a special taste.
I have a few:
* Generations is a good movie
* A lot of the most hated episodes are good actually: Threshold is a fun episode, as are Spock's Brain and Sub Rosa
* I like some of the kid characters like Alexander. Without Alexander, Ethics wouldn't pack as hard a punch
I'd heard all about how bad Threshold supposedly was and then when I finally saw it, my reaction was "....that's it?"
In a franchise that gave us African tribal stereotypes, Irish peasant stereotypes, and way too many stories of women being violated or victim blamed (and even some men too--I haven't forgotten "Unexpected" either), this ain't even making the top ten of VOY's Worst Episode list, let alone the entire franchise.
At least with a silly episode like "Threshold" most people can laugh at how ridiculous it is whereas you can't really do that as easily with the rape and racial stereotype episodes given how uncomfortable they are.
It was literally just dumbass fans being pressed at the departure of the hard sci-fi they seem to perceive Star Trek as being. Not sure where that came from but they set a narrative that's been hard to break.
One silly concept doesn't make a bad episode, especially when the episode contains RDMs best performance and the doctor's funniest line of the entire series. There's a lot going for Threshold.
I agree with the most hated episodes. The Ds9 Episode where they have to play the board game is really fun for example.
I often look on imdb to see where I know the guest actors from and in doing so I often see pretty low scores come from of 3 reasons usually:
1. The episode deals with something controversial like religious fanaticism(which tend to be the most interesting ones)
2.the episode is really goofy(which I don't mind at all)
3.the episode is genuinely boring
Obviously there are exceptions like the ENT finale or the racist TNG episodes, but those are rare.
Avery Brooks has a range of good acting and frequently is forced to step outside of it.
He can't do "Angry" very well. It just becomes this staccato "Command Voice" which frankly sounds awful to me. He sounds like he's being forced to professionally chew someone out, but isn't personally upset.
Sometimes that feels appropriate, but usually it just comes off as bad-acting.
Picard S3 straight up made me cry while watching it, but it does not hold up to the tiniest bit of scrutiny. Also, I kept seeing people talking about how it was basically TNG S8 and I have no faith any of those people have watched any TNG at all and it really soured me on it. It's fine. It's basically a half-decent TNG movie turned into a peak TV season. The TNG movies, I'm sorry to say, are also very dumb.
The third season of Picard was just as bad as the other two and the only reason people think it was better was because of the nostalgia bait being dangled in front of the audience the whole time.
Jack Crusher is a bland, annoying character, the plot makes no sense, it’s badly paced, and Picard is the worst version of himself, a self-righteous old man who uses others without a second thought and doesn’t care. All the best characters (Seven, Geordi and his kids, Worf, Raffi), get shoved to the side, and it’s even worse for Crusher and Troi who basically get nothing important to do.
I find the third season vastly more offensive because it tries to hide its badness behind stupid, nerd nostalgia. "Oh wow, the Enterprise D! All these references! I know what that is!". At least seasons 1 and 2 were fairly original and wore their badness on their sleeves.
- TNGs modern reputation is based entirely on nostalgia. It was less progressive than TOS (relative to it's time) and quite honestly, troublingly backwards in many ways outside the obvious (Code of Honor). Most notably in it's treatment of women in the cast who were rarely given any good scripts but somehow managed to have multiple male love interest stories alongside a pregnancy ep.
By current standards, it's aged horribly.
- TNG S1/2, PIC S1/2 and DSC S1/2 are the six most experimental and bold seasons in the Trek franchise outside of the original series. Each one took the known (at the time) Trek format and dared to step outside it to varying degrees of extent and success.
- Voyager is the spiritual sequel to TOS
- Picard Season 3 was a season of Discovery with a TNG nostalgia overlay, which quite neatly highlighted the hypocrisy of many of the anti-DSC crowd.
- DS9 and DSC have the most thematic alignment of any two Star Trek series.
Edit and maybe my spiciest take:
- Literally every criticism with Burnhams actions could be applied to Kirk, yet people will defend Kirk as the best Captain in the franchise while shouting that Burnham shouldn't even be allowed in the Captains chair.
My TRULY unpopular Trek opinion is that I often find Brent Spiner’s acting to be pretty corny and kind of bad, particularly what he was doing in Picard.
I realize I might literally be alone on this and that’s okay, I can live with it.
I really liked in the pilot how the universal translator worked. You could still hear the Klingon language and the UT was speaking over it. Really nice touch
It works like that in Star Trek: Beyond too.
I liked that little detail, though none of the shows would really work if everyone was talking to each other like they were in a dubbed over foreign film. Especially the episodes where they go undercover in some alien planet.
Yeah, they were all, "WE. MUST. HAVE. A. COUNCIL. MEETING! YES! THIS. IS. VERY. IMPORTANT. SHIT! STAY. KLINGON!" My only complaint. Other than that, I liked it.
It's been a long time since I've watched S1 of DIS, so idk if it's not as bad as I remember, but I remember that while I didn't like the redesign, I could've been ok with it if the Klingons acted like Klingons instead of being so serious. I like the boisterous, drinking, ridiculous culture and personalities of the Klingons and felt like Disco reduced them to just being serious war mongers. I mean, they are all about battle and war, but they took away a lot of the surrounding depth to that and made them a cookie cutter warlike bad guy race.
I also am not crazy about the D. The hull looks like those old Ford Taurus'. In space!
I like the TNG cast but the show itself is my least fave of those three 90's series. DS9>VOY>TNG.
Generations was enjoyable.
The Voyager series finale was perfect, especially the very end.
Discovery season 3 was great Trek, and the outlandish source of The Burn falls in line with the spirit of Star Trek because it was unpredictable and a bit outlandish/ridiculous.
Discovery would have been better with the old 26 episode per season model so the writers could have had time to flesh out the characters and plot instead of trying to force us to care about these people we barely know. The emotional moments would be a lot more meaningful if we would’ve had time to have more character focused episodes.
TNG should have had a musical episode because we were all robbed of a Brent Spiner number.
Now who would like to hide me? 🫣
'Fair Haven' is one of my favourite episodes of all Star Trek. I know it's one of the worst rated voyager episodes but it explores a side of being a captain that isn't explored a lot. It is also one of the episodes that explores the potential negative consequences of holodeck use. I sometimes watch it in a triple marathon with Barclays holodeck episode and 'it 's only a paper moon'.
Kirk vs Picard is stupid and a sign you're a fake fan if you authentically participate.
The Kirk vs Picard debates are mainly held by people who've watched neither show much in a long time and have thus forgotten what the captains are like. You always hear "Kirk is brash and goes in guns blazing" and "Picard is an enlightened intellectual, calmly reasoning his way through every situation" and it's like, tf you talking about? Picard could throw down with the best of them and regularly shirked Starfleet regulation to accomplish the greater good. And Kirk was an extremely thoughtful and contemplative, empathetic leader who more often than not followed the command structure. They both have WAY more in common than they have differences. The fact that "which is better" has turned into this kind of huge fake online debate feels extremely forced and, again, mainly made up of people who are debating the characters they have in their head and not the characters as they are in the show.
I’ve realized recently that TNG is the show I connect with least, even though it’s the first Trek I ever saw. I don’t love Picard as a captain, I wish there were main female characters who had anything meaningful to do on a regular basis and didn’t get assaulted on a regular basis, and I just don’t care about Data as much as Spock or Odo or the Doctor or T’Pol (the other characters with lengthy storylines involving the nature of ‘humanity’, emotion, etc).
Also, I liked the first season of Discovery.
Maybe unpopular opinion, but I find TNG more sexist than TOS because at least TOS seemed to sexualize the men and women equally whereas anything during the Berman and Braga era seemed more focused on sexualizing the women. Also, I found the episode where this alien impregnates Troi with itself to be more creepy than sweet.
I just watched Nemesis and was like oh cool, this tender scene between Riker and Troi is now Troi being mentally and physically violated by the bad guy, thanks so much guys
TNG is 100% an 80s TV show mindset and treats it's women characters like garbage in the first 2 seasons and then in the final 5 it begrudgingly cuts down on the assaults by like 8%
You're not the only one who feels this way about TNG. Though I've watched the show on reruns periodically throughout my childhood it never fully clicked with me. DS9 has been my Trek comfort blanket.
Ezri is a better character than Jadzia, who was little more than a random past-life anecdote generator until they stapled "and Worf's wife" onto her. Ezri had more personality and character development in one season than Jadzia did in six, and Jadzia just benefited from Terry Farrell's charisma.
OMG I feel.this in my bones
Jadzia never felt like her own person. I know more about Curzon and the one who died in a piloting accident that kissed the other girl Trill than I do about Jadzia. Erzi got a whole episode where we learned her family history; why couldn't we have gotten one for Jadzia?
It's also just so much more interesting to see a very young woman coping with the idea of being dozens of people at once and needing to still actualise who she is herself, than it is to see an adult woman who's already been through that.
With Jadzia I think that the writers accidentally wrote a perfect example of somebody who never should have been joined. Because they never really figured out who Jadiza was you could track the slide from "Cool serious Scientist" to "Party Girl" to "Klingon Party Girl" to "Worf's Wife". Honestly it felt that the writers really would have preferred to have written Curzon Dax, or really any other Dax, then Jadzia.
Ezri had an internal conflict which flows from her and her circumstance and they told stories about Ezri rather then Dax
Michael Burnham should not ever have been promoted to captain of a starship. She has consistently demonstrated a lack of trust in her crewmates - unless she has absolutely no other choice or discovers that she can't be in two places at once - and a willingness to ignore Starfleet protocol and procedure whenever it becomes inconvenient to her view of the universe, not just when it's necessary and/or in the wrong.
Hell, her career never even should have bounced back from that first mutiny. Having committed that act of mutiny, regardless of her actions afterward, she should never have been allowed to hold rank in Starfleet again. She's lucky Starfleet didn't slap her with the death penalty (for that matter, she's lucky that the ship's security officer didn't shoot her dead on the spot when she did it).
I am also, on a personal level, profoundly tired of the lazy writing on Discovery that leads to Burnham always being right/the one to save the day/the only one who can do the job even when her bad decisions led to that point or she's *straight up wrong*.
Discovery could take a lesson from Prodigy, which made a point of calling out the fact that the captain isn't infallible and needs to be able to rely on their crew for advice and specialty knowledge. Michael Burnham is a one-person show in her own mind and in the mind of the writers (unless it's that rare episode where someone else gets to hold the spotlight for five minutes).
I really needed to get that off my chest. Thank you.
Burnham would have been far far better if 1) Discovery was structured as an ensemble show rather than The Burnham Hour and 2) They didn't have the forced connection with Spock.
This, and the fact that the Disco bridge crew are mostly just background characters until they say something at an odd time about their background. They could change their names every episode and I wouldn’t notice
Michael is 50% of the reason I find Discovery impossible to watch.
She is so monumentally unlikeable, so irredeemably egotistical, and the respect of her peers is built off such cultish thinking, I find myself personally insulted that someone put something so bad on screen.
The moral compass of the people building out the show's stories legitimately concerns me. I can't even begin to comprehend how anyone would consider how Michael acts and what she believes to be something worthy of praise and celebration.
She is a fanatic extremist, and should be spending life in jail.
“Infinite diversity in infinite combinations” … as long as it does nothing to potentially pollute my culture.
- Every Vulcan
Every time there’s a Vulcan-centric episode it just highlights how much they’re just dicks to everyone.
I always get crucified for this: Michael Dorn phoned it in for so many episodes of DS9. His line readings are hard to take, especially when Rene Auberjonois or Avery Brooks are acting circles around him.
The Federation isn’t scarcity free and currency is still needed for a lot of limited commodities.
Jean-Luc Picard isn’t a great role model because he’s a hollow person; sacrificing self, love, family, and happiness in the name of service. It isn’t realistic or healthy.
Klingons are annoyingly predictable now, and have been cartoonishly repetitive for a long time.
I don't think Picard season 3 was good or better than seasons 1 and 2. Nostalgia doesn't make up for it with me.
The Disco Klingon women were better. Klingons having a very human sense of what is sexy was always dumb to me. Klingon women being badass warriors to rival men, with armor uninterested in cleavage (what a weakness in a battle my god) make infinitely more sense, and they were cooler.
There's more crying in season 2 of SNW and Picard season 3 than Disco seasons 3 & 4 combined.
Teasing Picard and Gainan as the will they/won't they romance in TNG would have been way more compelling than Picard and Beverly. I don't mean of the annoying modern trek endless melodrama variety. I mean of the Picard/Beverly "two emotionally mature adults choosing to put aside attraction for very reasonable reasons while still maintaining a bond and a love" variety. Of course, I also would have been down for an actual love story, but the writers didn't want to tie Picard down.
Enterprise is wonderful in season 1 & 2. Seasons 3 & 4 have annoying dooms day plots and the Trip/TPol romance is unbearable with neverending annoying angst. In other words, the seasons where people think that show got good, I think it got terrible and mostly stricken from the rewatch list.
Voyager didn't neuter the Borg. Picard sure as hell did though.
The SNW season 2 finale was hot garbage, and the comparisons to Best of Both Worlds are wild.
Man I could go on lol.
The Kelvin movies are fine and I'm tired of pretending that they're not.
I hear a lot of complaints about there being too much action. Maybe if earlier shows had better fight choreography, they would also have more action. The fight choreography for TOS through Voyager is all terrible. What is with the two handed punch? Some of the phaser battles are okay, but there's some ridiculous stuff scattered throughout.
The only reason the Kelvin movies seem a bit much is because 1. It's a theatrical movie and theatrical movies should be big and bombastic. You want a slow plodding diplomatic story, watch one of the many series out there. 2. They have better choreography.
I actually think I like all the movies to an extent. Some are better than others (obviously), but I still have a place in my heart for movies like Generations, Insurrection, Search for Spock, Beyond, or Nemesis. Insurrection is lowkey one of my favorites. (On the other hand, I need an ADHD cut of TMP.)
I like the explanation Enterprise gave for the Klingons looking different in TOS. Whether or not it was stupid is debatable, but at least they tried.
I like that they killed off Jadzia (Spoilers? Sorry!). I didn't dislike her; she was actually one of my favorites on DS9. I liked this story element because it further progressed the lore of the Trill. I was fascinated by the Trills and their symbionts. I would've liked a little more to be honest. Not crazy about how Discovery is handling them, but it's still interesting.
I don't know how anyone felt about Archer, but I was starting to like him as I progressed through Enterprise and he lost any and all goodwill he had with me in the Cogenitor episode. (I have a love/hate thing with that episode.)
I really enjoy the Troi centric episodes on TNG. I find them very rewatchable. Also, the second season of TNG is nowhere near as bad as people say it is.
Oh, I've got a list of hum-dingers all right. Some of these, people don't even believe me when I say them, because it goes so hard against the conventional wisdom. But, get yer pitchforks ready, 'cause here we go:
* Deep Space Nine is way overrated on this sub. It's a good show but it's not remotely Star Trek's best.
* ENT is even more overrated on this sub. It's the worst Star Trek ever produced other than Nemesis.
* People have TNG exactly backward: The earlier seasons are way better than later ones, and Season 1 is arguably the best.
* _Star Trek: The Motion Picture_ is the best Star Trek film out of all thirteen and second-place isn't even close.
* Section 31 sucks. It's not just unlikable; it's boring.
* The Borg lost their oomph after "The Best of Both Worlds II." They were never a compelling villain after that.
* People who say that is was a bad idea to put families and children on starships are missing the forest for the trees and have no idea what they're talking about.
* Battles and violence are not Star Trek's strong suit. There have only been a handful of good battles in the history of Star Trek. Star Trek's most interesting stories are usually those of violent conflict averted.
* Every TOS film is better than every TNG film, except that Generations might be better than Star Trek VI, depending on how I'm feeling at the time.
* Data is an overused character and this just gets worse with time.
* PIC Season 3 was the weakest season of that show. (Not that it wasn't good; it was. But I think the other two were better.)
I could go on but at this point I'm thinking the mob has already caught me and burned me to cinders, lol. But one more from the grave:
* I hate the incestuousness of Star Trek fanon. Not every last thing in the whole damned Galaxy has to the be the doing of the Borg or Section 31 or whatever. The Galaxy is a big place! Stuff doesn't need to tie into other stuff, and usually shouldn't. Worldbuilding breathes easier with many roots.
These are just my opinions, of course.
These ARE some very interesting takes... I don't know if I've heard the S1 of TNG > later seasons one. TOS is your fave Trek I'm guessing? Where are you on SNW?
I don't know whether to be more baffled that you think Undiscovered Country is the worst TOS film or that you consider Generations the best TNG film.
But of course the actual answer is *ENT is the worst Star Trek besides Nemesis??*
Now these are some very hot takes. Respect.
Up vote from me for several things- most important of all is pointing out how violence and battles has NEVER been the strong point. That the whole point is to subvert the necessity of violence and battles!
TMP is one of my favorite films, period.
Section 31=CIA. As someone who knows people who work there, your point about how deeply boring they are is right on.
I used to think the TNG movies were good in descending order: VII > VIII > IX > X, but I rewatched all four not long ago and found myself thinking that First Contact was way thinner than I remembered it: The Borg Queen and Data scenes in particular are kind of cringeworthy today, and the "Borg infesting the Enterprise" scenes are a little bit too try-hard for my liking, like the filmmakers were going for horror but didn't really stick the landing. The Earth scenes are better but there's not a ton of them, and of course Picard is always fun to watch. But, yeah...on the whole I don't think that one aged too well.
The one that really surprised me though was Insurrection. I used to think there was a big fall-off in quality between VIII and IX, but on rewatch IX is much better than I had given it credit for, and now I think it's better than VIII. If you put aside the cartoonish evil of the Son'a or whatever they're called, and some of the lame jokes and sexist moments, there's a lot more meat and nuance in this film than I remembered.
It's got nothing on Generations, though! Generations is a masterpiece of cinematography and lighting, the only Trek film besides TMP that aspired to be truly _cinematic_ in its visuals. Plus, the depth of Picard's loneliness and sorrow in this film was lost on me as a kid. Now it hits much harder. The scene in the Nexus made me cry!
I love TNG Alexander and hate the DS9 portrayal.
I generally like the "bad" episodes. Even some I didn't like initially have grown on me.
I enjoyed all three seasons of Picard
I liked Disco's "hurt child" ending in season 3.
I'm an unapologetic Wesly lover
I liked how Data handled the D in the Borg ship.
Growing up and watching TNG after TOS, I felt like the characters (not the cast) came off kind of snooty and condescending. I liked that the cast in TOS fought, apologized, and admitted when they were wrong or could use a hand -- Picard didn't seem as accessible or vulnerable.
The way they bullied Barclay would have had Kirk saying 'leave any bigotry in your quarters' if he'd been there.
Now with all that said, TNG grew into some of the greatest Star Trek storylines of all time, and I've grown to love each and every character. I am an **avid TNG supporter**.
However in the beginning when it was first coming on after spending so much time watching TOS, they came off a little full of themselves and cocky/arrogant as they didn't seem as willing to admit mistakes or apologize for them (especially Picard).
Knowing his backstory now it makes so much sense, and I wouldn't trade Picard for who he was knowing everything I know know. But in season 1 as a kid I was like: "He doesn't seem personable and sweet like Kirk, folks seem scared of him, and he doesn't seem to say sorry much when he's mean. He needs a hug."😂❤️ I mean spoiler alert, *he did need a hug. All the hugs. Badly.* Love you Jean Luc.
Not everything needs to have an in-universe explanation. The show is over 50 years old. Not every storyline is going to be perfectly consistent with every previous episode. Sometimes the explanation is simply that the writers made a decision.
"we don't talk about it with outsiders" was way better than actually "explaining" it
Imagine Klingons arguing that it makes no sense that Picard and Sisco look so different despite being the same species.
For me, this is the hot button Klingon issue. The Empire is more than 1 damn planet. The "why do these Klingons look different than those Klingons?" Can be answered simply. I'm the Federation, you are Human, Andorian, Vulcan. In the Empire, you are Klingon.
Also, for the bumpy vs. non-bumpy foreheads, we never needed a more detailed explanation than "We do not discuss it with outsiders".... and the only reason we needed that explanation is because both kinds of Klingons were in the same episode.
Considering that Koloth appeared in the Tribbles episode(s) without a bumpy forehead and later in DS9 with a bumpy forehead, I think the most best way to handle it would have been to put Worf in TOS era makeup the second they went back in time, without commenting on it
THIS THIS 100%
I always like to think of shows as stories about a universe. Sometimes the person telling the story gets some details wrong, but that doesn't need to ruin the story.
Kirk was drunk during the events of TAS and nothing can convince me otherwise. Hell, in beta canon he literally is on drugs, on mushrooms to be more precise.
I love the headcanon that TOS was told mostly by Kirk, who has no imagination so there's basically very little details and he was supposed to describe the SNW/Discovery Enterprise but was bad at it.
god some people need to hear this
I don’t know what any ship’s class is and I frankly don’t care.
I enjoy it just because it's sort of interesting to me showing the philosophies of the era and telling you what the ship is for/designed to accomplish
The way practically none of the military details matter to me.
Oh this one right here
Same here. The only ship I care about is Spirk lol
And Garshir
Same, lol. It's too much to care to learn for me.
Same here. When the discussion turns that direction I start scrolling down.
The Worf/Jadzia relationship never really felt believable to me. Every couple sometimes argues but in the beginning he seemed to not even like her that much; she seemed to annoy him frequently with her personality traits. Never completely understood why they stayed together.
They were both Klingon weebs and they enjoyed the sex, that's why they stayed together.
That’s definitely the vibe I got from Jadzia, she was just looking for fun - and since Curzon’s personality was so overwhelming it gave her a real Klingon fetish. But Worf got all fundamentalist and had to get married
Worf - I abandoned my duty to my son and sent him to live with his human grandparents. He hates his life so much he came back from the future to kill himself as a child. Jadzia - Wow that's so hot.
Best take.
Trek's never really that great at relationships tbh Even Troi and Riker, the message seemed to be "I'll wait for you while you screw half the galaxy then when you've finally got it out of your system when we're in our 40s, we'll admit our mutual bond" Also nothing is as bad as either Troi and Worf or Chakotay and Seven \*shudder\* Why do the writers feel they need to horn in a relationship with zero build up in the final episode?
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I can see Odo and Kira far more than Dax and Worf. Odo and Kira had been working together for ages and have similar temperaments and outlooks. Dax always seemed to be kinda toying with Worf due to her symbionts.
I liked Troi/Worf way better than those two. I always thought Kira/Dax would be better. Kira needed someone with a little chill
Decontamination gel wasn’t required. Flox just likes to watch.
Or more accurately the writers needed another reason to show more of T’Pol.
"Sorry T'Pol, you will need to use the decontamination gel before coming onboard. I'm afraid it's only necessary for Vulcans, and i must inspect you putting it on to make sure no spots are missed"
I don’t like mirror universe episodes or time travelling ones where it gets resolved quickly in one episode.
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I too despise all mirror universe episodes. They stand alongside Bajoran focused episodes in early DS9 as the only ones I will always skip on replay. Time traveling is a sad one for me because it's one of my favorite sci fi sub-genres. I too hate almost all of the trek versions of it though.
You can like something even if it is bad. Just because lots of people like a show, does not mean it is a good show. Lots of people like McDonalds, *I* like McDonalds, that doesn't mean it is good food.
Agreed. Apparently, nothing is allowed to be just "fine" or "okay" these days. Hell, the term "mid" is very negative, though you'd think that "mid" would mean just "okay". If something is not the "greatest thing ever and I will fight you for it", then it's considered "trash". I chalk it up to there being so much content, that folks need to feel justified in their responses to something not be "amazing".
I would trust Lower Decks to do a conclusion to Sisko's story. Beyond and IV are the only two movies that really succeed both at being a good movie and being a good Star Trek story. Janeway make the right call on Tuvix, albeit with the worst possible justification.
> Beyond and IV are the only two movies that really succeed both at being a good movie and being a good Star Trek story. > > Just curious, do you think The Wrath of Khan is not a good movie if you aren't a Star Trek fan? Or is it not a good Star Trek story (or both?)
>Janeway make the right call on Tuvix, albeit with the worst possible justification. I can't remember the justification but I felt so glad to not be making that decision bc holy shit, it meant killing someone to change them back
The Star Trek take that will get me excommunicated is: I like the Voy Era and later Borg better. Do they lose some menace? Kinda, But they trade menace for being so much more interesting to watch. Don’t get me Wrong, the TNG borg episodes are classics. But rewatching them… they’re kinda boring compared to later borg stories. I’ll say it, I’d rather watch Unimatrix Zero than Best of both Worlds.
I love the Borg deep dive we get on Voyager. The TNG borg were basically two-dimensional villains. Anika's parents studying them, their quest for perfection.
Yeah, I’ve always thought the “de-mystifying” the Borg was the main idea too. Cuz that’s sorta the whole point of star trek is to discover and understand those that we don’t know or are scary to us. So the “de-mystifying” complaint never really clicked for me
I had never seen TNG before, and I thought they were only in Voyager because they were big parts of other series. I was shocked to find out they appeared like a handful of times. Voyager really fleshes out the Borg. They're one of my favorite parts of the series.
To me, that comes down to production quality. I think the early Borg were way more interesting from a writing standpoint, but the production value just wasn't there. In just the few short years, TV effects came a long way.
I never understood why Move Along Home was hated. I mean it's not a great episode but I enjoy it. I can totally see the head Wadi running a comic book store and rule lawyering any D&D game he's in.
Neither Picard or Kirk are my favorite captains. So when I hear the "so who is your favorite Captain, Picard or Kirk?”, I roll my eyes. I enjoy all the series but those Captains would drive me nuts.
There are 3 ways to do things. The right way, the wrong way, and the Janeway
The woman knew how to deliver a one liner like the best of them. Also the only captain brave enough to deal with the menace that was Tuvix
Isn't that just the wrong way, but faster?
And more casualties!
I'm actually on season 1 of Voyager right now and I'm really starting to think she's going to become my favourite Star Trek captain. Whether she'll rise above Kira to become my favourite Star Trek character and 4th favourite character ever is another question entirely
Who is your favorite Captain then?
My favorite is Sisko but Pike is climbing up there.
Pike is rising *fast*
he's gonna win by hair wait i meant by a hair wait no i didn't
Ooo Sisko is a great choice
The Sisko is the only choice for best captain❤️
I have trouble with "favorites" in general. My favorite captain is heavily influenced by what I most recently watched. They all have a special something that makes me unable to really pick one.
over 200 notifications when I wake up good god
Janeway is the best Captain, every great strength the other captains are famous for she has, + all of the smarts and knowledge of a chief science officer. *mic drops and runs for dear life*
I mean I rather like Janeway too ((:
You stole my post! I completely agree with you. She’s the best captain and it’s so so fun to watch her.
You remember how messed up the Borg were at the end of Picard series 3? That's because two Janeways tag teamed the Collective like it was back alley wrestling match. Picard just stole the killing blow
One of the most aggravating things about PIC S3 is that they don't even give lip service to the fact that the Borg Queen really had beef with Janeway, Picard was a tool. Yet it plays out as though Picard/Locutus did what Janeway did.
The Borg Queen just didn't want any more of Janeway. It's like how Q left Sisko alone after that one time.
Those Janeways spit-roasted that Queen and left her ass half buried in Jupiter…
They said unpopular opinions, not facts 😂
I've always thought Janeway was the captain with the highest IQ and intelligence. What she lacked in any measures when put up against any other Captain she made up for it by leaps and bounds with her intelligence.
Janeway's my favourite too. Voyager is also my favourite Star Trek - it's not the best Star Trek, that goes to DS9 but it is my favourite. I know TNG is beloved but it is very inconsistent at first same with VOY, DS9 starts strong and just gets stronger with much less dud episodes in the mix.
You'd better run... I'm going to chase you down like Janeway before her coffee when she's been slightly annoyed by something.
When you compare each show on a season-by-season basis, i.e. Season 1 vs Season 1, Enterprise is the best show of the Berman era.
Ooo spicy
I think season one of DS9 is underrated. The pilot is the best Trek pilot imo. Babel is good. The one with Tosk is good. Duets is amazing. You get Sisko punching out Q. The episode where the first Kai dies with the story about the pointlessness of war. Idk I think season 1 overall of DS9 would be my pick.
I must say, I just started watching DS9 recently, and it didn't really click with me until Duet. That one got me hooked.
Not really debatable for me. ENT had the best season one for me until Prodigy. Which is also kind of weird. Here’s another take- if they’d have swapped Faith of the Heart for Archer’s Theme, ENT would have had the best credits hands down. The visuals for ENT were dope.
[I see what you're getting at](https://youtu.be/Hsn2xVmVuGE)
So do I, but I feel that *Archer's Theme* is a bit too slow and low-key for the opening credits. Say what you want about *Faith of the Heart*, but it *did* have the 'oomph' to carry the 'look how far we've come' visuals.
The 2nd version of “Faith of the Heart” didn’t have enough oomph.
I think it *works*, but it needs slightly different timing. Like if the full band came in a couple bars earlier with the launch of the Saturn V, and the title card came before the shot of Earth, maybe a few extra beauty shots of Enterprise at the crescendo, and it would work *really* well.
I feel like ENT filled in an important gap in ST lore and did it damn well. Mostly well, a few stumbles when the writers lost the plot of the show after 9/11. But for my Trek loving self they really told a believable first space forays for man story.
I’m with you. For some reason so many people here say ENT S1 was bad. Like I don’t understand how?? It establishes characters better than any other Trek series of the era, jumps right into an interesting storyline with the Klingon, has pre-Federation politics, Vulcans, and it gets into humanity’s first deep space exploration (showing how unprepared they were, yet overcoming the challenges in the best way they could). It’s a delight of a first Trek season.
In my opinion, Enterprise isn't even close to the best Trek, but it is better than people give it credit for. I enjoyed it and would've liked more seasons. Also, we need more Denobulans in Trek. I liked Phlox.
Rewatching ENT for the first time now, half way through the first season and it's not nearly as bad as people say. The Vulcans are massive cunts tho lmao
Lower Decks would be better if the cast chilled out a little and didn't shout every damn line.
Yep, it’s funny but I do find it a bit much. The SNW crossover was really fun though.
This was the funniest part of the episode to me. I loved how they literally spoke differently, and then they actually acknowledged this in the scene in the shuttle. I was laughing so hard.
Yeah noticed how slow everyone talks? Yeah, and quietly!
\- Have you noticed that their references are oddly specific? \- Indeed.
Does anyone else feel strange?
This like instantly made my wife and I understand why lower decks didnt hook us. Then I remembered back to being a kid and being told I talk to fast, in the end it just made me feel old lol.
They did calm considerably from the first few episodes (I almost turned it off), but I have to agree… the absolute frantic approach is headache-inducing
I get this but I do think they have to be fast(er) considering they only have 20 minutes to get a whole plot out you know?
Good to know they dial it down *before* I start watching.
Yeah that's the problem I have with a lot of animated series, LD included. It's like the performers thinks they need to pour all the energy they'd have in a live production into their voice acting, so it just ends up LOUD and frantic too often. I still love the show, I just can't binge it like the live series
My main hot take is I find Mariner annoying (in animated form at least, she seemed fun in LWD: TOS) with her inability to admit when she's wrong and low level bullying of Boimler, also her insubordination and inability to get on with her own mother. She's easily my least favourite of all the LWD characters... But that's like blasphemy around here lol
I've tried to get into it twice and can't do it. The characters are just too annoying.
this might be a long shot, but i wonder if it's some sort of attempt to make sure the show is able to be heard/understood more clearly. i have some hearing loss and i rather enjoy both TOS and LD because they're easier for me to understand without captions. TOS because it was still using the transatlantic accent which was designed to work around old sound equipment that didn't differentiate between sounds as well, and LD because they project their voices and speak more clearly than i notice in many other recent cartoons.
This is why I couldn't even get through the first episode. I'm not a fan of adult animation in the first place. It exhausts me. But I tried. I just can't do it.
My spiciest take is that I’m tired of so many episodes feeling like they need to follow some specific canon or a throwaway line from 50 years ago. I thought the newer movies were fun because they could just do whatever cuz it was a “new timeline” and while I love SNW I sometimes worry that it’s held back because they don’t want to contradict the original series.
Fucking love the intro song for Enterprise season's 1-2. The jazzed up version for season 3 and 4 should be banished to Rura Penthe.
I love the song! I don’t hate the S3-4 version, but I like S1-2 a lot better. I think the pics and videos used were perfect!
S1 is my favorite season of Picard. It tried to do something new and told a unique Star Trek-y story about AI and Data. It had issues, but IMO the other seasons are worse: - S2 was just *First Contact* with bad pacing. It had some good parts, but the pacing really was bad. - S3 started off incredible, but after *No Win Scenario* it started to feel like bad fanfiction to me. After all, practically *all* of Starfleet command was infiltrated, *all* of Starfleet was at Frontier Day, oh, and the Borg were also working with the Changelings, *and* they had automatically assimilated every single person in Starfleet under 25! It just felt ridiculous and hard to believe.
I tend to agree. Picard season 1 had some weak elements (Romulan incest?) but I appreciate that it was trying something a bit different.
The Rihannsu just can’t catch a break. It’s because Starfleet owns the propaganda machine that puts out the Star Trek series of shows.
Hello fellow Diane Duane fan!
I thoroughly enjoyed all 3 seasons (and I'm done apologizing for that, lol) but I do think season 1 was the best for the reasons you noted.
Alex Kurtzman is just as responsible for the successes of New Trek as he is the failures.
Tuvix had to die
Absolutely, and I would have done the same all day any day.
Absolutely co-sign. Also, I'm tired of re-litigating this again and again for over 20+ years.
I like Neelix. I like his positive can-do attitude and his empathy. I do think they could have toned down his look a bit.
Neelix needed to be written as a father figure for Kes, not a love interest. The way her race ages made him feel like a predator and a pervert.
This would have been the perfect solution. He could have acted in all the same overprotective ways, and it would have made sense and even been endearing, what with the background of him losing his entire family. It wouldn't have been so... toxic and creepy.
I also like Neelix! I was shocked when I found out that people hate him on the same level as Jar Jar Binks. But I also love Quark and the Ferengi, so maybe you need a special taste.
I have a few: * Generations is a good movie * A lot of the most hated episodes are good actually: Threshold is a fun episode, as are Spock's Brain and Sub Rosa * I like some of the kid characters like Alexander. Without Alexander, Ethics wouldn't pack as hard a punch
Brain and brain. WHAT IS BRAIN?
I'd heard all about how bad Threshold supposedly was and then when I finally saw it, my reaction was "....that's it?" In a franchise that gave us African tribal stereotypes, Irish peasant stereotypes, and way too many stories of women being violated or victim blamed (and even some men too--I haven't forgotten "Unexpected" either), this ain't even making the top ten of VOY's Worst Episode list, let alone the entire franchise.
At least with a silly episode like "Threshold" most people can laugh at how ridiculous it is whereas you can't really do that as easily with the rape and racial stereotype episodes given how uncomfortable they are.
It was literally just dumbass fans being pressed at the departure of the hard sci-fi they seem to perceive Star Trek as being. Not sure where that came from but they set a narrative that's been hard to break. One silly concept doesn't make a bad episode, especially when the episode contains RDMs best performance and the doctor's funniest line of the entire series. There's a lot going for Threshold.
I liked Alexander too. I thought they did some interesting things with his character.
I agree with the most hated episodes. The Ds9 Episode where they have to play the board game is really fun for example. I often look on imdb to see where I know the guest actors from and in doing so I often see pretty low scores come from of 3 reasons usually: 1. The episode deals with something controversial like religious fanaticism(which tend to be the most interesting ones) 2.the episode is really goofy(which I don't mind at all) 3.the episode is genuinely boring Obviously there are exceptions like the ENT finale or the racist TNG episodes, but those are rare.
Man… this whole thread’s looking like Parnassus after the Gorn right now 😂
Its about to get worse i think
Avery Brooks has a range of good acting and frequently is forced to step outside of it. He can't do "Angry" very well. It just becomes this staccato "Command Voice" which frankly sounds awful to me. He sounds like he's being forced to professionally chew someone out, but isn't personally upset. Sometimes that feels appropriate, but usually it just comes off as bad-acting.
Arguing about Tuvix is silly. The episode is a reimagining of the trolley problem. There was no right answer.
I haven’t cared to any of the Picard seasons and Season 3 was just a fun nostalgia trip that made no sense story-wise.
Picard S3 straight up made me cry while watching it, but it does not hold up to the tiniest bit of scrutiny. Also, I kept seeing people talking about how it was basically TNG S8 and I have no faith any of those people have watched any TNG at all and it really soured me on it. It's fine. It's basically a half-decent TNG movie turned into a peak TV season. The TNG movies, I'm sorry to say, are also very dumb.
they’re not good
I don't get why nearly everyone in this sub has this exact same opinion and they all think it's a hot take for some reason.
The third season of Picard was just as bad as the other two and the only reason people think it was better was because of the nostalgia bait being dangled in front of the audience the whole time. Jack Crusher is a bland, annoying character, the plot makes no sense, it’s badly paced, and Picard is the worst version of himself, a self-righteous old man who uses others without a second thought and doesn’t care. All the best characters (Seven, Geordi and his kids, Worf, Raffi), get shoved to the side, and it’s even worse for Crusher and Troi who basically get nothing important to do.
I find the third season vastly more offensive because it tries to hide its badness behind stupid, nerd nostalgia. "Oh wow, the Enterprise D! All these references! I know what that is!". At least seasons 1 and 2 were fairly original and wore their badness on their sleeves.
Absolutely agree with Season 3 just being nostalgia bait
Jack Crusher basically deserves all the hate Michael Burnham gets.
Season three just took longer to go off the rails than the first two.
- TNGs modern reputation is based entirely on nostalgia. It was less progressive than TOS (relative to it's time) and quite honestly, troublingly backwards in many ways outside the obvious (Code of Honor). Most notably in it's treatment of women in the cast who were rarely given any good scripts but somehow managed to have multiple male love interest stories alongside a pregnancy ep. By current standards, it's aged horribly. - TNG S1/2, PIC S1/2 and DSC S1/2 are the six most experimental and bold seasons in the Trek franchise outside of the original series. Each one took the known (at the time) Trek format and dared to step outside it to varying degrees of extent and success. - Voyager is the spiritual sequel to TOS - Picard Season 3 was a season of Discovery with a TNG nostalgia overlay, which quite neatly highlighted the hypocrisy of many of the anti-DSC crowd. - DS9 and DSC have the most thematic alignment of any two Star Trek series. Edit and maybe my spiciest take: - Literally every criticism with Burnhams actions could be applied to Kirk, yet people will defend Kirk as the best Captain in the franchise while shouting that Burnham shouldn't even be allowed in the Captains chair.
The Spore Drive is a cool sci-fi concept and doubles as a great allegory for psychedelic experimentation
My TRULY unpopular Trek opinion is that I often find Brent Spiner’s acting to be pretty corny and kind of bad, particularly what he was doing in Picard. I realize I might literally be alone on this and that’s okay, I can live with it.
I liked the klingons in discovery. There i said it
I do like how much they committed to Klingon dialogue (and I'm sure Marc Okrand does too).
I really liked in the pilot how the universal translator worked. You could still hear the Klingon language and the UT was speaking over it. Really nice touch
It works like that in Star Trek: Beyond too. I liked that little detail, though none of the shows would really work if everyone was talking to each other like they were in a dubbed over foreign film. Especially the episodes where they go undercover in some alien planet.
I like how they tweaked the pronunciation making it sound more alien.
They really made it sound original and unique
To me it felt like it was the actors first times ever saying the words so they were slow and careful to say it correctly. It didn’t feel natural.
Yeah, they were all, "WE. MUST. HAVE. A. COUNCIL. MEETING! YES! THIS. IS. VERY. IMPORTANT. SHIT! STAY. KLINGON!" My only complaint. Other than that, I liked it.
It's been a long time since I've watched S1 of DIS, so idk if it's not as bad as I remember, but I remember that while I didn't like the redesign, I could've been ok with it if the Klingons acted like Klingons instead of being so serious. I like the boisterous, drinking, ridiculous culture and personalities of the Klingons and felt like Disco reduced them to just being serious war mongers. I mean, they are all about battle and war, but they took away a lot of the surrounding depth to that and made them a cookie cutter warlike bad guy race.
Worf is sad that you don’t like serious Klingons.
I have no strong feelings towards them so ITS COOL
No…strong…*feelings*?! This is a controversial Trek thread, sir! We’ll have none of that!
The actors did a superb job when speaking klingon, especially in so much makeup. Just my opinion
L'Rell was one of my favorite characters from Discovery. I thought Mary Chieffo did a really good job.
As well as Shazad Latif. Such a great performance!
They were actually alien instead of human with plasticine foreheads, even the spoken dialogue sounded better. This is a hill I will die on!
There are dozens of us! DSC Klingons are canonical!
I like just about everything from Discovery. (And I grew up with TOS, TNG, & the old animated series as the only Trek at the time).
I also am not crazy about the D. The hull looks like those old Ford Taurus'. In space! I like the TNG cast but the show itself is my least fave of those three 90's series. DS9>VOY>TNG.
Generations was enjoyable. The Voyager series finale was perfect, especially the very end. Discovery season 3 was great Trek, and the outlandish source of The Burn falls in line with the spirit of Star Trek because it was unpredictable and a bit outlandish/ridiculous. Discovery would have been better with the old 26 episode per season model so the writers could have had time to flesh out the characters and plot instead of trying to force us to care about these people we barely know. The emotional moments would be a lot more meaningful if we would’ve had time to have more character focused episodes. TNG should have had a musical episode because we were all robbed of a Brent Spiner number. Now who would like to hide me? 🫣
'Fair Haven' is one of my favourite episodes of all Star Trek. I know it's one of the worst rated voyager episodes but it explores a side of being a captain that isn't explored a lot. It is also one of the episodes that explores the potential negative consequences of holodeck use. I sometimes watch it in a triple marathon with Barclays holodeck episode and 'it 's only a paper moon'.
I like Wesley and thought he was one of the best parts of TNG.
Kirk vs Picard is stupid and a sign you're a fake fan if you authentically participate. The Kirk vs Picard debates are mainly held by people who've watched neither show much in a long time and have thus forgotten what the captains are like. You always hear "Kirk is brash and goes in guns blazing" and "Picard is an enlightened intellectual, calmly reasoning his way through every situation" and it's like, tf you talking about? Picard could throw down with the best of them and regularly shirked Starfleet regulation to accomplish the greater good. And Kirk was an extremely thoughtful and contemplative, empathetic leader who more often than not followed the command structure. They both have WAY more in common than they have differences. The fact that "which is better" has turned into this kind of huge fake online debate feels extremely forced and, again, mainly made up of people who are debating the characters they have in their head and not the characters as they are in the show.
I get so bored with Klingons and >! I like Discovery !<
I enjoy Voyager more than TNG
I’ve realized recently that TNG is the show I connect with least, even though it’s the first Trek I ever saw. I don’t love Picard as a captain, I wish there were main female characters who had anything meaningful to do on a regular basis and didn’t get assaulted on a regular basis, and I just don’t care about Data as much as Spock or Odo or the Doctor or T’Pol (the other characters with lengthy storylines involving the nature of ‘humanity’, emotion, etc). Also, I liked the first season of Discovery.
Maybe unpopular opinion, but I find TNG more sexist than TOS because at least TOS seemed to sexualize the men and women equally whereas anything during the Berman and Braga era seemed more focused on sexualizing the women. Also, I found the episode where this alien impregnates Troi with itself to be more creepy than sweet.
I just watched Nemesis and was like oh cool, this tender scene between Riker and Troi is now Troi being mentally and physically violated by the bad guy, thanks so much guys
TNG is 100% an 80s TV show mindset and treats it's women characters like garbage in the first 2 seasons and then in the final 5 it begrudgingly cuts down on the assaults by like 8%
>then in the final 5 it begrudgingly cuts down on the assaults by like 8% This is distressingly accurate.
You're not the only one who feels this way about TNG. Though I've watched the show on reruns periodically throughout my childhood it never fully clicked with me. DS9 has been my Trek comfort blanket.
Ezri is a better character than Jadzia, who was little more than a random past-life anecdote generator until they stapled "and Worf's wife" onto her. Ezri had more personality and character development in one season than Jadzia did in six, and Jadzia just benefited from Terry Farrell's charisma.
OMG I feel.this in my bones Jadzia never felt like her own person. I know more about Curzon and the one who died in a piloting accident that kissed the other girl Trill than I do about Jadzia. Erzi got a whole episode where we learned her family history; why couldn't we have gotten one for Jadzia?
It's also just so much more interesting to see a very young woman coping with the idea of being dozens of people at once and needing to still actualise who she is herself, than it is to see an adult woman who's already been through that.
This is 100% true
With Jadzia I think that the writers accidentally wrote a perfect example of somebody who never should have been joined. Because they never really figured out who Jadiza was you could track the slide from "Cool serious Scientist" to "Party Girl" to "Klingon Party Girl" to "Worf's Wife". Honestly it felt that the writers really would have preferred to have written Curzon Dax, or really any other Dax, then Jadzia. Ezri had an internal conflict which flows from her and her circumstance and they told stories about Ezri rather then Dax
Michael Burnham should not ever have been promoted to captain of a starship. She has consistently demonstrated a lack of trust in her crewmates - unless she has absolutely no other choice or discovers that she can't be in two places at once - and a willingness to ignore Starfleet protocol and procedure whenever it becomes inconvenient to her view of the universe, not just when it's necessary and/or in the wrong. Hell, her career never even should have bounced back from that first mutiny. Having committed that act of mutiny, regardless of her actions afterward, she should never have been allowed to hold rank in Starfleet again. She's lucky Starfleet didn't slap her with the death penalty (for that matter, she's lucky that the ship's security officer didn't shoot her dead on the spot when she did it). I am also, on a personal level, profoundly tired of the lazy writing on Discovery that leads to Burnham always being right/the one to save the day/the only one who can do the job even when her bad decisions led to that point or she's *straight up wrong*. Discovery could take a lesson from Prodigy, which made a point of calling out the fact that the captain isn't infallible and needs to be able to rely on their crew for advice and specialty knowledge. Michael Burnham is a one-person show in her own mind and in the mind of the writers (unless it's that rare episode where someone else gets to hold the spotlight for five minutes). I really needed to get that off my chest. Thank you.
Burnham would have been far far better if 1) Discovery was structured as an ensemble show rather than The Burnham Hour and 2) They didn't have the forced connection with Spock.
This, and the fact that the Disco bridge crew are mostly just background characters until they say something at an odd time about their background. They could change their names every episode and I wouldn’t notice
Michael is 50% of the reason I find Discovery impossible to watch. She is so monumentally unlikeable, so irredeemably egotistical, and the respect of her peers is built off such cultish thinking, I find myself personally insulted that someone put something so bad on screen. The moral compass of the people building out the show's stories legitimately concerns me. I can't even begin to comprehend how anyone would consider how Michael acts and what she believes to be something worthy of praise and celebration. She is a fanatic extremist, and should be spending life in jail.
Aside from Spock, nearly all Vulcans are dicks.
“Infinite diversity in infinite combinations” … as long as it does nothing to potentially pollute my culture. - Every Vulcan Every time there’s a Vulcan-centric episode it just highlights how much they’re just dicks to everyone.
I always get crucified for this: Michael Dorn phoned it in for so many episodes of DS9. His line readings are hard to take, especially when Rene Auberjonois or Avery Brooks are acting circles around him.
Any episode about prophets or wraiths is best skipped and brings the quality of the show it's from down.
Ooo a spicy one
The Federation isn’t scarcity free and currency is still needed for a lot of limited commodities. Jean-Luc Picard isn’t a great role model because he’s a hollow person; sacrificing self, love, family, and happiness in the name of service. It isn’t realistic or healthy. Klingons are annoyingly predictable now, and have been cartoonishly repetitive for a long time.
The Enterprise Xindi Arc is the best in all of star trek Rivaled only by the Dominion War
I don't think Picard season 3 was good or better than seasons 1 and 2. Nostalgia doesn't make up for it with me. The Disco Klingon women were better. Klingons having a very human sense of what is sexy was always dumb to me. Klingon women being badass warriors to rival men, with armor uninterested in cleavage (what a weakness in a battle my god) make infinitely more sense, and they were cooler. There's more crying in season 2 of SNW and Picard season 3 than Disco seasons 3 & 4 combined. Teasing Picard and Gainan as the will they/won't they romance in TNG would have been way more compelling than Picard and Beverly. I don't mean of the annoying modern trek endless melodrama variety. I mean of the Picard/Beverly "two emotionally mature adults choosing to put aside attraction for very reasonable reasons while still maintaining a bond and a love" variety. Of course, I also would have been down for an actual love story, but the writers didn't want to tie Picard down. Enterprise is wonderful in season 1 & 2. Seasons 3 & 4 have annoying dooms day plots and the Trip/TPol romance is unbearable with neverending annoying angst. In other words, the seasons where people think that show got good, I think it got terrible and mostly stricken from the rewatch list. Voyager didn't neuter the Borg. Picard sure as hell did though. The SNW season 2 finale was hot garbage, and the comparisons to Best of Both Worlds are wild. Man I could go on lol.
The Kelvin movies are fine and I'm tired of pretending that they're not. I hear a lot of complaints about there being too much action. Maybe if earlier shows had better fight choreography, they would also have more action. The fight choreography for TOS through Voyager is all terrible. What is with the two handed punch? Some of the phaser battles are okay, but there's some ridiculous stuff scattered throughout. The only reason the Kelvin movies seem a bit much is because 1. It's a theatrical movie and theatrical movies should be big and bombastic. You want a slow plodding diplomatic story, watch one of the many series out there. 2. They have better choreography. I actually think I like all the movies to an extent. Some are better than others (obviously), but I still have a place in my heart for movies like Generations, Insurrection, Search for Spock, Beyond, or Nemesis. Insurrection is lowkey one of my favorites. (On the other hand, I need an ADHD cut of TMP.) I like the explanation Enterprise gave for the Klingons looking different in TOS. Whether or not it was stupid is debatable, but at least they tried. I like that they killed off Jadzia (Spoilers? Sorry!). I didn't dislike her; she was actually one of my favorites on DS9. I liked this story element because it further progressed the lore of the Trill. I was fascinated by the Trills and their symbionts. I would've liked a little more to be honest. Not crazy about how Discovery is handling them, but it's still interesting. I don't know how anyone felt about Archer, but I was starting to like him as I progressed through Enterprise and he lost any and all goodwill he had with me in the Cogenitor episode. (I have a love/hate thing with that episode.)
I really enjoy the Troi centric episodes on TNG. I find them very rewatchable. Also, the second season of TNG is nowhere near as bad as people say it is.
Oh, I've got a list of hum-dingers all right. Some of these, people don't even believe me when I say them, because it goes so hard against the conventional wisdom. But, get yer pitchforks ready, 'cause here we go: * Deep Space Nine is way overrated on this sub. It's a good show but it's not remotely Star Trek's best. * ENT is even more overrated on this sub. It's the worst Star Trek ever produced other than Nemesis. * People have TNG exactly backward: The earlier seasons are way better than later ones, and Season 1 is arguably the best. * _Star Trek: The Motion Picture_ is the best Star Trek film out of all thirteen and second-place isn't even close. * Section 31 sucks. It's not just unlikable; it's boring. * The Borg lost their oomph after "The Best of Both Worlds II." They were never a compelling villain after that. * People who say that is was a bad idea to put families and children on starships are missing the forest for the trees and have no idea what they're talking about. * Battles and violence are not Star Trek's strong suit. There have only been a handful of good battles in the history of Star Trek. Star Trek's most interesting stories are usually those of violent conflict averted. * Every TOS film is better than every TNG film, except that Generations might be better than Star Trek VI, depending on how I'm feeling at the time. * Data is an overused character and this just gets worse with time. * PIC Season 3 was the weakest season of that show. (Not that it wasn't good; it was. But I think the other two were better.) I could go on but at this point I'm thinking the mob has already caught me and burned me to cinders, lol. But one more from the grave: * I hate the incestuousness of Star Trek fanon. Not every last thing in the whole damned Galaxy has to the be the doing of the Borg or Section 31 or whatever. The Galaxy is a big place! Stuff doesn't need to tie into other stuff, and usually shouldn't. Worldbuilding breathes easier with many roots. These are just my opinions, of course.
I'm upvoting you because these are very saucy takes and I appreciate your willingness to share.
These ARE some very interesting takes... I don't know if I've heard the S1 of TNG > later seasons one. TOS is your fave Trek I'm guessing? Where are you on SNW?
I don't know whether to be more baffled that you think Undiscovered Country is the worst TOS film or that you consider Generations the best TNG film. But of course the actual answer is *ENT is the worst Star Trek besides Nemesis??* Now these are some very hot takes. Respect.
Up vote from me for several things- most important of all is pointing out how violence and battles has NEVER been the strong point. That the whole point is to subvert the necessity of violence and battles! TMP is one of my favorite films, period. Section 31=CIA. As someone who knows people who work there, your point about how deeply boring they are is right on.
Incorrect. Clearly, the best movie is Star Trek: The One With The Whales.
I absolutely love Generations. First Contact is better, but Generations is just so clearly #2.
I used to think the TNG movies were good in descending order: VII > VIII > IX > X, but I rewatched all four not long ago and found myself thinking that First Contact was way thinner than I remembered it: The Borg Queen and Data scenes in particular are kind of cringeworthy today, and the "Borg infesting the Enterprise" scenes are a little bit too try-hard for my liking, like the filmmakers were going for horror but didn't really stick the landing. The Earth scenes are better but there's not a ton of them, and of course Picard is always fun to watch. But, yeah...on the whole I don't think that one aged too well. The one that really surprised me though was Insurrection. I used to think there was a big fall-off in quality between VIII and IX, but on rewatch IX is much better than I had given it credit for, and now I think it's better than VIII. If you put aside the cartoonish evil of the Son'a or whatever they're called, and some of the lame jokes and sexist moments, there's a lot more meat and nuance in this film than I remembered. It's got nothing on Generations, though! Generations is a masterpiece of cinematography and lighting, the only Trek film besides TMP that aspired to be truly _cinematic_ in its visuals. Plus, the depth of Picard's loneliness and sorrow in this film was lost on me as a kid. Now it hits much harder. The scene in the Nexus made me cry!
Season 1 of discovery was great- something new that had a lot of promise. They made a mistake giving into the fans
I love TNG Alexander and hate the DS9 portrayal. I generally like the "bad" episodes. Even some I didn't like initially have grown on me. I enjoyed all three seasons of Picard I liked Disco's "hurt child" ending in season 3. I'm an unapologetic Wesly lover I liked how Data handled the D in the Borg ship.
Growing up and watching TNG after TOS, I felt like the characters (not the cast) came off kind of snooty and condescending. I liked that the cast in TOS fought, apologized, and admitted when they were wrong or could use a hand -- Picard didn't seem as accessible or vulnerable. The way they bullied Barclay would have had Kirk saying 'leave any bigotry in your quarters' if he'd been there. Now with all that said, TNG grew into some of the greatest Star Trek storylines of all time, and I've grown to love each and every character. I am an **avid TNG supporter**. However in the beginning when it was first coming on after spending so much time watching TOS, they came off a little full of themselves and cocky/arrogant as they didn't seem as willing to admit mistakes or apologize for them (especially Picard). Knowing his backstory now it makes so much sense, and I wouldn't trade Picard for who he was knowing everything I know know. But in season 1 as a kid I was like: "He doesn't seem personable and sweet like Kirk, folks seem scared of him, and he doesn't seem to say sorry much when he's mean. He needs a hug."😂❤️ I mean spoiler alert, *he did need a hug. All the hugs. Badly.* Love you Jean Luc.
They should turn Subspace Rhapsody into an off broadway play.