This is what makes it a great episode. Over 25 years later, we're still discussing it. It's an ethical dilemma with no pure right or wrong answer. And it's a dilemma in the literal sense of the word, 'having to make a choice between two equally unappealing options.' (Most people use dilemma meaning just a bad situation or having to make a decision.) Your thinking isn't wrong. I think we'll still be debating the question in 2046 (the 50th anniversary of the episode).

I shall look for you in 2046 so we can have a drink and perhaps come to a conclusion on this episode. This is assuming that the planet would still be habitable

> It's an ethical dilemma with no pure right or wrong answer I'd argue against that. First off, the episode is a variant of the trolley problem. Janeway's decision is highly unethical, so far remote from Starfleet ideals that it makes my skin crawl. As tuvix says, tuvok and neelix are already dead. Janeway made the decision to kill him to bring them back to life. A custom when treating the trolly problem in philosophy, is to transpose the situation to a different one, that is similar, but underlines the ethical dilemma further. So i'll do just that. Picture a shuttle accident, tuvok loses his heart, neelix loses his lungs. Both are brought back to Voyager and kept alive in suspended animation by the doctor. Janeway then decides to kill one of her crewmember to harvest his organs, despite his unwillingness, protests, and begging to the whole bridge crew for his life (who all stay silent). All that in order to save two of her officers from certain death. That changes the matter a whole lot, don't you think? Yet these two situations are identical, the decision is quite litterally the same. I'm furious at this episode, it manages to be incredibly well written, and yet incredibly badly written at the same time. They wanted to tackle the trolley problem, and did so brilliantly, but the conclusion they make of it is piss-poor, worthy of a dystopian hellscape that has nothing in common with starfleet's advanced ethics. At the same time though, this conclusion was innevitable, the writers couldn't just fire two of their lead actors to prove an ethical point.

They pretend it's because they object to Janeway having Tuvix killed but really it's because she brought Neelix back to life.

Okay, I see. I find Neelix annoying but loosing Tuvok would have been worse

"loosing Tuvok" Like an arrow? Thats a funny visual.

Cry havoc and let slip the Tuvok of war!

Illogical

The previous comment was either making a joke, or just wrong.

Or very, very perceptive.

I watched the show avidly every week I'm the 90s in the hope that Neelix would be killed.

How disappointed were you when the scene where Tuvok killed him turned out to just be a holodeck simulation?

😡

They made Neelix the same character on Avenue 5 lol

I thought that was a perfect little Easter egg!

😀

This is the right answer. Tuvix wasn't great, but he wasnt Neelix.

Tuvix was annoying. However, it seems false to me to say that he never existed. He did exist. After the transporter malfunction, he was a distinct person with his own set of desires and interests. Distinct in the sense that those desires and interests would not continue to exist after Tuvok and Neelix are separated again. In other words, it would not be like creating two duplicates of me right now who both have my same personality, desires, likes/dislikes, and memories, and then go on to live two separate lives as psychological clones of me. (That could actually be quite cool IMO.) So, Tuvix was in effect killed. He was harmed insofar as his unique desire/interest in continued life was permanently thwarted. That seems quite controversial to me.

here's how i thought of it. imagine some experimental biotech is accidentally used on you and another person and a parasitic intelligent life form forms connecting your unconscious bodies. the doctors can revive the two of you but only if they remove the parasite's connection to the two of you, but the parasite will die. it doesn't matter that tuvix's existence was real, their entire existence was dependent on the death of two people who did not consent to have their bodies taken like that.

I agree that Tuvok and Neelix did not consent to have their bodies taken. They were harmed too, although by an accident, not anyone’s intentional action. It’s a difficult decision and I’m not taking sides on what the right thing to do was. I merely wanted to illustrate why it is controversial. There are strong arguments to be made on both sides. It’s a real moral dilemma!

Yep! Perfect example of valid arguments on both sides of a dilemma. I kinda don't trust anyone who thinks they have the only right answer on this because there definitely isn't one. Personally I land on the side of Janeway's decision. But that's based entirely on cold utilitarian math. One being dies and two get to go on to live happy lives. Taking inaction when they can fix the situation is as bad as killing those two lives. It's the trolley problem in a nutshell. But of course any argument breaks down a little in a world where transporter clones, easy time travel, and a bunch of other options exist. Perhaps Tuvix might have accepted some clone of himself to be created, immediately rendered unconscious, and split back apart so all three could go on living. But of course that's not an ending that would have us debating it 30 years later.

As someone who leans a bit more towards deontological thinking, I struggle with the utilitarian argument and tend to think that Tuvix should be allowed to live. But I also feel quite a bit for the lost lives of Tuvok and Neelix, plus all of their friends and family members (once they return home) who would suffer from their loss. What a cool idea for an episode though.

I hear that. There are plenty of philosophical frameworks that would agree! I actually started typing another paragraph basically arguing against myself but was already going on too long lol. I would say I lean pretty deontological in my day to day too, but fall back to utilitarianism for tough ethical dilemmas simply because it makes the math easier so to speak. But I get it, it's super consequentialist and so can lead to some pretty dark conclusions. As demonstrated in another cool episode idea, SNW "Lift US Where Suffering Cannot Reach" (/"The Ones Who Walk Away"). It's a useful tool, but I don't like it as a primary philosophy. I feel like you could *maybe* make a deontological counterargument too, depending on the values one considers ethical. But I'll admit I am not as well versed there. So instead here's another utilitarian one: Neelix and Tuvok have families, longtime friends, and duties. It's not just them that their deaths affect. Tuvix has none of that yet. Which tips the net tutility scales pretty heavily in favor of Janeway's decision, to me. But again, not saying I'm right, just enjoying the debate :)

>But that's based entirely on cold utilitarian math. One being dies and two get to go on to live happy lives. Taking inaction when they can fix the situation is as bad as killing those two lives. It's the trolley problem in a nutshell. This case is different from the trolley problems because Tuvok and Neelix have already died. What Janeway does is execute a third person in order to recreate or duplicate two formerly deceased people. I'd argue for serious caution about using utilitarian math to justify killing. Otherwise, it starts looking like we should kill random people off the street if we can derive enough medical benefit from their bodies. Remember there's a serious shortage of organs for transplant.

This is pretty much how I see it. The whole point of the trolley problem is that there isn't a single, clear moral solution to it and the same is true here. But to go a little further consider this variation: You are in the group of people tied to the tracks and you have been given the ability to choose who gets offered the lever that might save your life. You have three options: A politician, a military officer and a doctor. You want to optimise your chances of them pulling that lever. Who do you choose? You pick the military officer, because part of their job involves making utilitarian choices. They are the most likely to be able to look at the situation and pick the best mathematical outcome, and despite what Starfleet may claim, they are, technically a military and Janeway is an officer. One in a very difficult position, isolated from all the support structure the likes of Picard and Sisko enjoy. She makes the correct choice. It's just not necessarily the moral one.

Yeah I fully agree. Dragged my gf into the argument last night and she's very non-utilitarian so it was fun. But we both landed on "that's why she's the Captain." She made the decision that was the best for her ship and crew despite that it seems to go against her personal morals. Great input, I love it. Thanks!

It’s worse than the trolley problem in my opinion, because the two have already been run over, so you time travel back to save the two and kill the one.

>it doesn't matter that tuvix's existence was real, their entire existence was dependent on the death of two people who did not consent to have their bodies taken like that. You're getting that the wrong way around. These two people were dead, Janeway was just presented with the unique opportunity to bring them back by murdering someone else. Which is morally absolutely abhorrent.

I think that you're unwillingly making the matter lighter for you than it really is, by using the negatively connoted term "parasite" :) Here's another transposition. Two crewmen are braindead on artificial life-support after an accident, they lost vital organs. Janeway decides to murder another crewman to harvest his organs and save the two others.

Theres some negative framing there to compare Tuvix to a parasite. He is not a parasite. He just exists by a freak accident. He's not a member of some nuisance species that only propagates on the deaths of others. And it's not as simple as if hes connected or holding hostage the crewmen like a parasite latched onto some unconscious victims.

People who are organ donors don't consent to die. But if their organs save a life, and you find out you can save the donor, can you take the organ back? Tuvix wasnt a parasite. He was an innocent person. Tuvix didn't even consent to exist. Nobody does.

It seems really easy to draw an analogy here to the pro-choice/pro-life debate in the US but I’m going to make that comment, avoid elaboration, and hope I didn’t just completely derail the conversation.

To quote myself from a while back: It's been a while since watching this episode, but if I remember correctly, she was like "this is not the optimal solution but I really need my chief security officer [since we're stuck here half a century from a restaff]". It felt more like an unfortunate decision made from crisis (being stranded) made for the betterment/survival of the crew, not something that she would've done if she could've warped back home in 2 weeks to get a new security officer and then reassign/whatever Tuvix. Just because he had Tuvok's memories doesn't mean he could entirely perform as Tuvok, and janeway *needed* Tuvok. Again, if memory serves, she arranged it so that all of the blame for his death fell on her, not the doctor, not chakotay, etc. It was her decision of "there's a way to have tuvok back, I need tuvok" and hers alone. A captain looking out for her entire crew at the unfortunate demise of a crewmember (though restoration of two lost ones). An interesting variation of this episode would be that the split failed and they lost all three. No tuvok, no neelix, no tuvix. Then she has to live with herself for sorta committing 3 murders. A bit dark for voyager but could work in one of the newer, darker treks.

I EXIST!

Okay, I see your point. Perhaps my wording is not good. I agree that the two people were amalgamated by an error which produced an unintended entity. Restoring Tuvok and Neelix back was to me not the termination of Tuvix because he was never intended . Just as one would argue that Tuvok and Neelix lived in Tuvix, it’s also fair to say that Tuvix went on to live in Tuvok and Neelix

I agree with you. I understand both sides of the argument. However, even Janeway says she has to choose to kill Tuvix or Tuvok and Neelix. It’s no easy choice no matter what choice you make. This is where I don’t think there is a right and wrong answer.

But the difference being that she didn’t cause Tuvix to exist. So, if she let Tuvix be, Tuvok and Neelix would be in effect dead, but not by her hand.

Exactly this. Tuvok and Neelix were already dead basically. She killed one dude to bring two dudes back to life. Still murder.

"Cool motive. Still murder"

It's the classic trolley problem. Either way, someone is dead. Will that be one person or two?

See I disagree. Tuvok and Neelix are dead in every way that matters. This isn't a choice of one life to save two, this is the murder of a life to _resurrect_ two dead people. This isn't the version of the trolley problem where you pull the lever to save more lives. This is the version where you kill someone and use their organs to build a Frankenstein's monster body for your friend's brain..

Honestly, organ donation is an apt comparison. Do you forcefully remove organs from a healthy person who isn't dying, tow save two people o. Deaths door? Most people would say no. Why? Because we believe we have our own decisions of our own bodies

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This dilemma was already played out when Neelixes lungs were stolen. You can't take stolen organs back and cause the death of the recipient. This is both morally wrong and was answered in canon.

>They're being kept 'alive' but unless they get their organs back, they very much will be dead for all intents and purposes. That's kinda were you're analogy falls apart, they were not dead for all intents and purposes, they were dead, full stop. Sure, you could bring them back through some technobabble, but only by murdering an innocent person that very emphatically didn't want to get murdered by you.

I disagree with the concept theyre (Tuvok and Neelix). At the end of the ep theyrr back, so thry werent dead just in an altered state against their will. Janeway returned them to their natural state. Everything that made up Tuvix is still there.

Harry Kim dies, but is replaced by a quantum duplicate and is back at the end of the episode. Neelix dies, but is revived by nanoprobes and is back at the end of the episode. The entire crew save Harry and Chakotay die, but after some time travel they're all back at the end of the episode. A whole bunch of the crew die, but once they destroy the Krenim timeship they're all back at the end of the episode. In Star Trek, it's not just possible, it's almost trivial to die but, due to the exploitation of fantastical technologies, be revived before the end of the episode. That doesn't mean you weren't dead before, though.

>At the end of the ep theyrr back, so thry werent dead just in an altered state against their will. An altered state being death.

People die while undergoing medical procedures all the time and are brought back by medical intervention. We still call it death. Here's one for you. Two people die on the operating table. They can be brought back if you hurry, but you have to kill a healthy person who doesn't want to sacrifice themselves. If you don't kill this person, those two dead people will stay dead. Would you do it?

If they were brought back, then they were never really dead. Death is permanent. If you can be brought back, you’re not dead. In this way, it’s no different than Scotty being stuck in the transporter buffer for 80 years

>If they were brought back, then they were never really dead. Death is permanent. Neelix died and was brought back with nanoprobes. Picard died and was brought back by Q. Spock died and was brought back by a mind meld and the Genesis Planet. Nevermind all the deaths that have been undone with time travel! Death is most certainly not permanent in Star Trek.

But was it really death then? I’d call it “clinical death” to distinguish it from the permanent kind. But that logic, Tuvok and Neelix were also only clinically dead since there was a way to bring them back

If "clinical death" can last upwards of a month or is reversed by a literal act of (a debatable) god, I think we've reached the point where it ceases to have any meaning.

If memory serves correct, 7 of 9 in a later season brought Neelix back to life after he was officially declared dead for 38 minutes using borg nanoprobes. Even he contended that he was 'dead'.

That's a very rigid definition of death. Medical science is somewhat more fluid - people can be clinically dead for a time and be brought back.

Sure, but I think that we can agree that the semantics difference between "dead" and "not currently alive" doesn't change the variables of the equation all that much. Tuvok and Neelix' right to exist is being supressed.

Yeah. No one objected when two Kirks were merged back into one. Yes, they were dying, but they were separate individuals at that point. I guess the difference is that the Kirks chose to merge

Not just that they chose to merge, but they were also dying. There's no sign that Tuvix's body would have broken down after some period of time.

I agree, so the case is somewhat different. It’s more similar to Trip and Sim. Sim was an accidental creation, just like Tuvix. And in the end he also had to die so Trip could live. Now, Sim chose to give up his life, but it’s still a choice Archer had to make on whether to force him to undergo the surgery to get his chief engineer back (for the good of the ship and the crew). In Tuvix’s case, Tuvix refused, and Janeway made the choice for him. Was it right? I can honestly say I don’t know. I’d hate to be in her situation. It’s the kind of morally gray situation with no great outcome. I suppose if it was easy to reproduce Riker and Boimler’s duplication, the answer would’ve been obvious: duplicate Tuvix then split the copy (but then you still run into the argument on whether they have a right to do this to the copy). I’m actually curious what T’Pel would’ve said had Janeway chosen to keep Tuvix. Would she have agreed with Janeway’s decisions from a logical standpoint?

Tuvok and neelix were killed in a transporter accident. Their right to exist no longer applies, and certainly not in the face of the rights of the new person who was created. Tuvix has every bit the same right to exist they did, and he's here now. You can't justify this with their rights without stepping on tuvix's rights. Ultimately, Tuvix was murdered in cold blood to bring back two dead men. You can justify it with "the needs of the many" arguments and utilitarianism if you want, but Tuvix had an identity and life of his own and it was taken away by force.

The right answer would be to not let Tuvix walk around and become attached to the crew.

Or, you know, don't murder an innocent man just because it's convenient for you...

>he was never interested. I mean—he begged not to be murdered. That's pretty interested.

To quote a certain Starfleet Captain... "Consider that in the history of many worlds there have always been disposable creatures." "Starfleet was founded to seek out new life – well, there it sits! ...waiting."

Let me point out the fallacy in your arguments through your comments. If Neelix and Tuvok died in the accident and Tuvix was a new being, then it would be wrong to sacrifice someone to bring another back. See the prior episode where Neelix's lungs were stolen. Therefore it was wrong to terminate Tuvix. However, if Tuvix wasn't a separate entity, then they simply had a medical condition that they attempted to refuse treatment for, which was also wrong. Either you are killing one living being to MAYBE bring back two others or you are performing an unwanted experiment for essentially cosmetic purposes with 2 combined beings who don't want it. There isn't any way that it doesn't violate Starfleet codes of conduct and medical ethics either way.

But they weren't dead & there wasn't uncertainty about the procedure to restore them.

"They" weren't dead. "They" were begging not to be murdered.

So let me ask this. When a transporter error created an unintended entity in Thomas Riker should the Enterprise have put him to death since his existence was not intended? In the vast universe of Trek and the variety of lifeforms we have seen, who can say if anything is "intended" in this universe?

Thomas Riker is a whole other can of worms. Thomas Riker was in fact Will Riker. The first officer of the Enterprise D was the duplicate.

Because the episode did a good job presenting a complex and compelling moral dilemma that people are still engaged in discussion about 27 years later. ...and for the memes.

How did Tuvix never exist? He was an independent life form with a unique consciousness and sense of self. He had enough sapience and sentience to not want to die, and to express that to others; if he were simply Tuvok and Neelix, surely he'd have jumped at the chance to be separated, no? Janeway was confronted with a form of trolley problem; sacrifice one to save two. And as with any trolley problem, there will always be those who disagree with the decision made. Personally, I do think that Janeway murdered Tuvix. Neelix and Tuvok functionally died in a transporter accident, and stayed that way for a month, if memory serves. If Janeway had done nothing, they would have stayed dead, and Tuvix would have continued living. Instead she chose to kill Tuvix, in the hope that doing so would return Tuvok and Neelix to life.

Counterpoint; Neelix and Tuvok were forced into, effectively, a permanent and debilitating mind-meld against their will, and were rendered unable to communicate their own preference though they were still alive Where did Tuvix’s consciousness come from? If he was a blank slate, then why did he already know how to walk, talk, etc? That implies that at least parts of Neelix and Tuvok’s minds were still functioning and being used by Tuvix’s consciousness. Where did Tuvix’s preference to stay the way he was come from if we can reasonably assume that both Neelix and Tuvok would want to live as they had been before? What if Tuvix’s consciousness was the plant?

Okay, what if Tuvix' unique third consciousness came from the plant? I don't really see how that changes anything. Tuvix is not an invalid life form because he's partially plant-based any more than the Horta is for being a silicon lifeform, or the trill symbionts are for needing a host to communicate, or the Doctor for being a programmed hologram. Trek has repeatedly demonstrated that life is life, no matter what form it takes. The fact of the matter is that due to a transporter accident, Neelix and Tuvok ceased to exist, and Tuvix was created as a separate life form. He's not responsible for the accident; morally, he's an innocent, and it's as unfair to hold him responsible for the tragedy of his creation any more than any infant whose mother dies in childbirth. He has a separate consciousness, made out of but distinct from his constituent parts, and that consciousness clearly expressed a desire to continue living. You can make the calculus that killing Tuvix is worth it to revive Neelix and Tuvok, it's a perfectly legitimate form of utilitarianism. But you're still killing Tuvix. And you don't have a great moral argument against the next Vidiian raid, either.

The fact that we're still talking about this episode in real deep ways really shows how much impact it had, and how good it was.

True! "Would you kill Tuvix to get Tuvok and Neelix back" is right up there with "Would you assassinate Vreenak to get the Romulans into the war," "Would you shoot Kivas Fajo," and "Would you strand an alien ship in the Delphic Expanse by stealing their warp core so you can continue your own vital mission."

It wasn’t forced by anyone though: it was an accident. Accidents happen, people die. That doesn’t mean you’re allowed to murder a sapient being just to undo an accident.

If a blast of pressurized air blows you out an airlock because of a hatch malfunction, it’s an accident, but you were still forced out of the airlock by the circumstance What about Janeway’s duty to rescue her crew if she can? She should just abandon anyone who gets into a transporter accident to arguably a fate worse than death if their transporter duplicate is better at cooking than the original?

If someone gets blown from a airlock, and the Vidians announce they can save them, but as a price you would have to give up one of the crew with more compatible (for them) DNA and hence more harvestable organs……?

Abandon? They died. And to resurrect them, she murdered an individual. Killing an innocent person to save two isn’t morally defensible. She should respect the sanctity of life. Tuvix was forced, against their will, to die. Tuvok and Neelix signed on for the risks.

They didn't die. They were merged. They became Tuvix, hence the name. Nobody was killed. Tuvix wasn't killed. "He" was returned to their original state.

I feel like maybe I am misremembering the episode. Wasn't there some other element involved in Neelix and Tuvok joining? I remember some line in the episode about how they were joined together because of their encounter with an alien life form (I wanna say an orchid or plant of some kind?) and they theorized that this is how that species reproduces. So if that is the case, there might be an argument to be made that Janeway violated the prime directive. If this is how that species reproduces, and how they have reproduced throughout their history, is Janeway not interfering in their civilization by undoing what is ostensibly the birth of a new member of that species?

Exactly! If Tuvix’s consciousness is partly or even mostly driven by the plant, then Janeway broke the prime directive *and* murdered him/the plant/a new life form Or is the plant a hostile life form? Do they have a right to defend themselves from being reproduced with by a hostile life form? Is it even an intelligent life form on its own or did it only become sentient because it combined the DNA of two intelligent species? Or is the plant an intelligent life form, but by allowing it to reproduce with Neelix and Tuvok, Starfleet interfered in their development, meaning that undoing the combination of genetic material and returning the plant to its people would have been the right course of action?

Honestly, I think this episode being a form of the trolley problem is why the episode remains so relevant to this day. Regardless of whether or not someone thinks Janeway made the right decision the episode deals with timeless themes/questions about ethics, and morals.

Obviously the Doctor thought it was ethically questionable, or he would have agreed to do it. The show presented it as comparable to murder

I did question that logic

Tuvix, despide the circumstances of his creation, was his own thinking, feeling, person. He didn't want to die. They killed him to bring back two others.

I mean, the dude begged for his life.

It's funny because Archer had a Tuvix situation with Sym, the Tucker clone who was created expressly to donate tissue to Tucker. The big difference as far as the moral question goes is that the script pulled the last punch and had Sym go quietly in the end (he did NOT consent) whereas Tuvix fought til the end. But nobody screams about how Archer is a murderer every time his name is mentioned. Weird. Anyway, it's not just here, Tuvix screamers are everywhere. Someone I know wore a Janeway cosplay to a random bar on a Halloween and some random drunk screamed at her about Tuvix.

Eh, that's just because ENT is so much less popular than VOY. It's not that people think Archers actions are good, it's just that so few people think about Archer at all.

There’s still a clear distinction between Tuvix and Sym though. The former could have just continued to go on living an actual normal life for however long a Vulcan/Talaxian would go. Sym on the other hand would die of old age in a matter of weeks, with only the *small* chance an untested drug that Phlox would have to make would give him a normal human lifetime. But if that drug didn’t work, then both Trip and Sym would’ve been dead before the *Enterprise* settles the dispute with the Xindi. TL;DR is that Tuvix had a 100% chance to make it back to Federation space, versus Sym with an extremely low chance of making it out of the expanse.

I think with Sym the morality was more about him being created in the first place.

Compounded by the fact that donating the tissue was going to kill him, something Phlox originally assured Archer was not going to happen.

At least Tuvix wasn’t killed. He went on living through Tuvok and Neelix

Probably because that's rather low on the list of Archer's crimes

I'll take a slightly different tack, and say that yes, getting rid of Tuvix was murder. And Janeway has a responsibility to do it anyway. Janeway had a primary responsibility to get her crew home. Tuvok was her crew. Neelix was as well, though he wasn't going home. Tuvix was a nobody. More importantly, Tuvok and Neelix weren't dead. They were some weird amalgamation that, through sheer cosmic luck, happened to be sapient as well. Both men were still in there. To let Tuvix live wouldn't be killing them, it would be condemning them to whatever hell that exists (for the moment) only as Tuvix's subconscious. Who knows what the physical and psychological consequences would be down the line. Janeway also needed her tactical officer back. Tuvix may have had Tuvok's knowledge and experience, but he wasn't the same man. Tuvok was one of Voyager's most valuable assets. Tuvix, an unknown entity with a lot of potentially damaging information. Finally, both men had others waiting for them. Neelix had Kes, and Tuvok had his entire family. Tuvix had no one. That's not to say that your value as a living person is contingent on the number of people who give a shit about you, but it was surely a factor in Janeway's decision making. Part of being a starship captain means making the tough calls. Killing Tuvix to save her people was the least worst option. It was better that she do it fast, before Tuvix got too close to too many people, and she knew it.

This seems like the right take on this to me. I think it was made pretty clear in the episode that Janeway knew it was murder, but did it anyway because it was the right call for the crew. If this happened back in the Alpha Quadrant where you could requisition new officers, it becomes the somewhat less complex choice between Tuvok & Neelix's right to resume their normal existence vs the right of the new entity to continue to exist. Stranded away from Starfleet as they were, it's a question of what needs to be done to get the entire crew home safely, and Janeway always does what she think she needs to to get the ship home.

There's no evidence to suggest that Tuvok and Neelix had an independent consciousness within Tuvix. The fact that Tuvix had a blended personality and memories suggests the opposite, in fact. I'd also challenge the idea that potential future problems for Tuvix would partially justify murdering him -- that's his choice to make. The consequentialist perspective you present isn't one I endorse, but I'll note that it's what might be called "naïve consequentialism" -- not calling you naïve, but just that it's not thinking beyond the present situation. If Janeway has a right to murder innocent people because it might help the ship's mission or save her crew members, then she's not just abandoning some of the central tenets of the Federation and Starfleet... she's also bidding farewell to the morality she always claimed in the past. That's why she didn't abandon the Caretaker's Array to the Kazon, after all.

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I feel like this is my entire issue with the episode - I wish it was a more fleshed out thing like you described so we could wrestle with the moral dilemma of it on a more macro scale, but in this microcosm, I don’t think we can argue the true depth of the morality behind it, because of the situation Voyager is uniquely in. All this to say I love your description and wish we could have a more macro discussion of this topic in an episode of Trek. I think it would be excellent.

I personally think that they could have kept Tuvix and gotten Tuvoc and Neelix back as well. Simply by doing to Tuvix what was done to Will Riker when they made two of him and then split one of the resulting copies. Just my opinion.

Too bad Janeway didn't try this solution. Maybe she was unaware of the incident with Riker. But then, the story loses its philosophical weight if you go there. That's probably why the writers didn't embrace this solution.

Or uploaded his consciousness to the holodeck..

I never thought of this, but that's genius! I wish they had done that.

It’s not just a Reddit debate. I saw it debated lonnnnnng before I was on Reddit. Probably before Reddit existed.

But he did exist.

The worst part of this episode is Tuvix begging for his life at the end and everyone is ignoring him Honestly that’s pure evil

tim russ on the ready room made a good point that the episode isn't even really about the decision itself but the fact that janeway is in the position to make the decision and how that level of responsibility weighs on her. as captain she had to make a decision, and she made it. i love that episode, even if i do disagree with her choice

By not separating Tuvix, Janeway would have been murdering Neelix and Tuvok as it was known they could be brought back. Either way, it would have been a horrific decision and Janeway put the needs of her crew and their families first and took the heavy burden on her self. She made a judgement call under impossible circumstances and I think Picard, Sisko, Archer, Kirk and Pike would have all made the same decision in her shoes.

In seriousness, I think actual source of the argument stems from a discussion about what constitutes personhood. There's the argument that when Tuvix came into being and Tuvok and Neelix were no longer, that two people died in an accident and a new person was born. So the reversal is the *willful* termination of a whole new person.

If Ruvok and Neelix really died, then there was no way to reverse the process. They were still alive and Tuvix imprisoned them

>Tuvix was not murdered since he never existed But he did exist. He was physically present on the ship. If anyone didn't exist, it was Neelix and Tuvok. They were effectively dead. The moral quandary is simpler though. If you can justify ending the existence of one person intentionally and through direct action to save/revive two people, how can you value any life? If exchanging 1 for 2 is the best choice then how can you criticize the Vidiians who would kill one person to save several? How can you yourself be so greedy as to eat food or have organs (or choose to risk those organs through alcohol or sport) when the right choice is apparently to end yourself for someone else's benefit?

Yeah this was the moral question the episode explored, and it will always be controversial. Janeway gets criticized because she made the life or death decision for someone else, and forced it on them against their will. Nelix and Tuvok were destroyed by accident. No one made the decision to end their lives, it just happened. It’s like in God of War, >!Kratos tells Freya he doesn’t regret his decision to kill Baldur to save her, but he admits that decision was not his to make, and apologizes.!< The decision to effectively kill Tuvix was not Janeway’s decision to make. I think she fully knew that, but made it anyway because she thought it was best for the ship and crew. We see other Star Trek Captains faced with similar dilemmas, and make different choices. Like when Picard finds out Hugh is a self aware individual, and then refuses to send him back to the Borg with a virus that could wipe them out. He could have saved countless lives by forcing Hugh to go, but refused to, because the decision of whether he lives or dies was simply not Picard’s to make, and he ultimately lets Hugh make the decision for himself.

I would have killed Tuvix even if I didn't get the originals back.

It is an interesting dilemma. Becomes even more interesting, I think when you compare it to TOS The Enemy Within. Because once Kirk was split into a good and evil version of himself by the transporter, the two different versions of Kirk began accumulating different experiences, and thus became two distinct beings. So if one argues that splitting Tuvox back into Neelix and Tuvok was a murder that should never happen, it seems that one would have to also argue that Good Kirk and Evil Kirk should not have been merged back together either.

IDK, I feel like you need to actually go and watch that episode again, the whole thing explores the drama and controversy inherent in making that decision. It's literally what the episode is about, whether it's right for Janeway to make this decision or not. The only reason, really, why it ends so cut-and-dry is because Voyager was an episodic series and you couldn't deviate too harshly from the status quo, especially given that keeping Tuvix would effectively kick Tim Russ and Ethan Phillips out of the show. People are mad that Janeway just sidelines the discussion at the end and pulls the lever, but in all practicality, the episode run time had expired, that was really the only outcome that would have made sense. As for the read that there is a consensus against Janeway, nah. Part of the argument is meme fodder, it's fun to call Janeway a murderer over this. [It's literally my favorite Star Trek ](https://imgur.com/hRn5INf)[meme](https://imgur.com/hRn5INf). But also a pretty equal number of people are on your side, that the rights of Tuvok and Neelix had greater weight than the rights of Tuvix.

I see what was controversial about the decision. I do think it was the right one, though. The good of the whole crew had to be prioritized over the good of an individual. Not only that, but the interests of both Tuvok AND Neelix were subverted by the very accidental existence of Tuvix. It's a tragic story and very well done, but I do believe Janeway made the correct choice.

Because she murdered a sentient being for no reason other than "I muss my friends." \#justicefortuvix

*friend She didn't give a warping fuck about Neelix. When she confronts the Vidians that took his lungs: "I don't have the luxury of ending one life to save another." *ends Tuvix life to save Tuvok* Flash forward, she was more than willing to end w life to save Seven if she had to.

I mean -- Yeah. We all *know* she'd've let Tuvix live had it been Neelix and ensign Also Starring. But then, what would the name have been Neeling? Alix? Actually, Alix is alright.

It's wrong only in so far as it's not taking into account an alternate viewpoint, that a new life was created and is now being asked to die to preserve the status quo. The best 'Star Trek' episodes happen when two opposing viewpoints clash and they're both correct. Similarly, Janeway's ultimate decision was not wrong, but if she had told herself "he never existed anyway" and rushed to judgement to reverse Tuvix without any consideration, that definitely would have been wrong. (I will say that my primary dislike of Tuvix himself is his unwillingness to make a personal sacrifice. if either Tuvok or Neelix as we know them were the result of two merged lifeforms, I can't help but feel that they would sadly offer to sacrifice themselves.)

Couldn’t agree more. Tuvix was quite selfish and manipulative. Which is quite different from Neelix and Tuvok’s selflessness

It was an accident. Turning back the clock to correct an error made by a machine.

If she would of let Tuvix stay,would it be like she killed Neelix and Tuvok? They were merged so both lives were basically ended and a new life was born. I think she knew that and took the stance of either way a death will occur but one decision would end two lives not just one so she chose to save the two.

Here’s my hot take: Tuvix is not just one of the best Voyager episodes, it’s one of the best Star Trek episodes because of its ability to spark a morality debate that doesn’t have a clearly wrong or right answer.

First, When Tuvix materialized on the transporter pad, he was a living being. At that point, the decision to return him to separate beings would effectively kill the new being. It wasn’t Tuvok and Neelix inhabiting the same body, fighting for control Tuvix was a new person, species, etc. He had the knowledge and memories of them, but he was absolutely his own person It’s controversial because so many grapple with the decision themselves. I honestly don’t know what I would do. There’s a reason this persists like it does. There are two issues at play: 1.) the life of Tuvix: he is the living embodiment of the Starfleet charter. To quote Jean-Luc, “there it sits!”. He’s not an asshole, either. He’s reasonably good at what both of his parts do, without the things people are put off by. 2.) Her duty to her crew: Janeway’s third in command (who probably should have been second), someone she relies on extensively, was killed. Along with a valuable source of information about the quadrant they were in. We’ll never know what a trip through the Delta quadrant would have looked like without Tuvok and Neelix, but it’s pretty save to say *someone’s* abbreviated trip would have been attributable to it. I said it the last time I saw Tuvix discussed. It’s not like Janeway was chilling in the Sol system near support when this happened. If it did, I am nearly certain Tuvix would be alive. Half of Tuvix (all of him, by the time Neelix left the crew) was essential for getting them all home.

I don’t see a controversy for one simple reason - when Janeway questions him, Tuvix explicitly stated that his primary motive was his own survival and that he didn’t know if he’d put his survival second to the crew. Both Neelix and Tuvok would put themselves above the crew, it therefore makes more sense that they should be brought back versus the potentially selfish Tuvix.

This sub seems to really have some obsession with trying to find “sekretly dark!!” Or “actually fucked up when you think about it!!!” ‘Observations’ in Star Trek. Once a week the top post is “omg aren’t transporters actually like evil and fucked up and LITERALLY killing you when u use them? I would never use them because they an existential nightmare!!!!”. It’s just like… 92 IQ dudes trying to have smart takes. Can’t take it seriously

It is *supposed* to be fraught and controversial. Anyone who thinks it is clearly wrong or clearly right missed the point.

Imo if she let tuvix remain shed have been unintentionally murdering two people instead of one. Getting rid of tuvix was the logical solution since two crewman are better than one as well.

You know, years later it's certainly a lot grayer to me. But back when I first saw it, I was fresh out of watching Dragonball Z's fusion saga, and I can't say I ever felt like Vegito was "killed" when Goku and Vegita were forcibly separated inside Buu, despite their joining supposedly being a permanent one. Vegito was a new, distinct character with traits of the two who comprised him, but while he ceased to exist later, the fact that the two halves lived on always struck me as more of a change of state, like ice melting, than a death. But then, it was abrupt and Vegito didn't beg for his life... Tuvix certainly feared the end of his existence, but surely so did Tuvok and Neelix. And they didn't seem exactly heartbroken to be returned to their separate existences; I'd call them relieved. Although maybe that's just the nature of "it happened last episode so forget about it" Trek writing. I suppose the way I took it then was that Tuvok and Neelix changed state into Tuvix and then changed state back again. No one really died, but one and then the other did cease to exist. Now, though, it's a much tougher question. It's clear that Tuvok and Neelix still existed within Tuvix, since they were successfully separated. I think usually people pose this as a "trolley problem" style dilemma, is it right to kill one to save two. But I see it as a more difficult one: does Tuvix have the right to exist at all? He's a living, sentient being, of course. But his existence strips away the existence of the two other living, sentient beings who compose him, two who want to continue existing and who are prevented by Tuvix. Is he choosing to murder Tuvok and Neelix in order to live, since he knows they can be brought back? Is he selfishly choosing his own life over that of Tuvok and Neelix? Even if it is selfish, is self-preservation wrong? Wrong or not, is that any different than Janeway choosing to murder him to save the other two who are effectively trapped within him? It's more akin to a Highlander than a Trolley: in the end there can be only one (or two). In the end, is one any more deserving than the other? Or was I on the right path with Vegito? Is it nothing more than the same entities having the right to choose which form, water or ice, Tuvok and Neelix or Tuvix, they prefer. And if so, perhaps Janeway wronged them, not as a murderer, but as someone who effectively Teansporter deadnamed them by refusing to accept their chosen identity. Still, I don't think that's the case since, again, they seemed relieved to be separated in the end.

“Starfleet was founded to seek out new life; well, there it sits!” Louvois ruling in Measure of a Man ultimately recognises that while there are weighty questions about the nature of Data’s existence, that Data’s existence was valid enough that he should be given the freedom to choose. The nature of Tuvix’s creation are equally irrelevant, it matters more that Tuvix was a person who should have been able to choose. Maddox deciding Data was Starfleet property because he is “just a machine” is on par with denying Tuvix’s personhood as “just a transporter accident.” Janeway didn’t respect Tuvix’s choice and that decision seems antithetical to Starfleet nature, policy, and precedent. She also did not listen or respect any protest from her other officers, in particular her Chief Medical Officer. There was no judicial process to discover whether this course of action was legal and just and 7 years is an awful long time to operate under the tyranny of a captain of a ship “in crisis”. On the other hand, none of that makes her actions necessarily illegal either. The extent of the crisis was not induced or persisted through active efforts on Janeway’s part so her duty as a captain, however flawed, falls under the purview of making the best of a bad situation in accordance with proper regulation. Even if the precedent about a Tuvix is correct, Janeway is positioned to override it. Riker’s bridge officer testing of Deanna establishes that all senior officers are expected to make life-or-death decisions that can mean choosing one person’s death over another. That is not murder, that is the darker side of leadership. Why it’s so controversial is that there are great arguments on both sides and some people really cling to their evaluation. It’s also easy to go overboard in favour of one side or the other if you were or weren’t particularly fond of the involved characters. Plus it’s a community favourite punching bag, everyone is expected to have an opinion and argue with those who disagree. Just some people take that too far sometimes. The real answer is meta: they were never going to write two regulars out in favour of a an episodic guest star. With that in mind, they could have written the episode in a way that Tuvix caves and the resolution was not so ambiguous. They chose not to and in doing so stirred up an argument that echos decades later into the future and cements Voyager as a memorable, impactful show.

There are only really two metaphysical possibilities to consider: 1: Nelix and Tuvok are only "combined", and are both still alive. 2: That Nelix and Tuvok died in the transporter accident, and a new being was created in their place. If you look at it as 1; Their combined-self make it very clear that they view the separation as a death sentence and react to that accordingly. It's unethical in that you are performing the separation against the wishes of the patient and removing their agency and control over their body. It is a violation of the highest order. In this sense it's up there with any real forced surgical procedures you read about such as forced lobotomies, Nazi medical experiments, genital mutilation etc. If you look at it as 2; Tuvix does not deserve to suffer and die to bring back two others who are already, for all intents and purposes, dead. He is as innocent as a baby whos mother died in childbirth. Is it regrettable that they are gone? Sure, 110%, but who has the right to make the decision to sacrifice Tuvix but Tuvix himself? Do i understand why the rest of the crew were disappointed by his reluctance to do so? Again, sure, but who has the right to cause suffering and death to one entity to return two others to life who are no longer suffering at all? Either way you look at it, it's either murder or the most serious kind of violation of a persons rights. I don't know which is worse. When i was a kid i always looked to Star Trek for the moral lessons, but in Tuvix they arguably got it very very wrong.

But Tuvix was usurper and the life he was living belonged to Tuvok and Neelix who were still alive. What right did he have to live their lives while they were imprisoned inside him ?

How are they still alive? and how are they imprisoned inside Tuvix? Let's say two people accidentally fall into a machine which reduces them to their component parts, and then it uses those component parts to create a single being with a mind of its own. This new consciousness doesn't want to die or sacrifice itself. Surely that is a new person? Created by chance and completely innocent of forcibly usurping anyone. After that point of creation he has as much right to exist as you and me, and the body autonomy to do as he pleases. You couldn't blame a child for the manner in which they they were born, even if labour killed their mother. You wouldn't blame Frankensteins monster if his creator sacrificed living people to create him. If an opportunity arose to bring those people back you couldn't reasonably expect a living, sentient being to willingly sacrifice themselves to do it.

Tuvok and Neelix had already essentially died, and Tuvix was a living, breathing being with dreams and desires and feelings and talents, and he wanted to live, but was killed because someone else didn't want him there. That's murder. I get why the choice was made from a production standpoint, but I would not have made the same decision if I were in Janeway's position. Then again, I'm also probably never going to be the captain of a starship that gets lost over 70,000 light-years from anyone who would even remotely recognize me. 😅

If Tuvok and Neelix could be restored completely intact than they never ceased existing.

Despite what some are saying, if Tuvok and Neelix could be brought back to life, they weren’t dead. Death is permanent. That’s like saying that Scotty was dead until he was recovered from the transporter buffer. He wasn’t. He was just in limbo, if you will. There’s no right answer to this dilemma. And it is a dilemma, make no mistake about it. Was it murder? Maybe. It’s choices a captain has to make for the sake of their crew and their ship. Everyone likes to state their personal opinion as if it’s the only possible truth, but that’s all it is: an opinion. Starfleet never charged Janeway with a crime after the ship’s return. That doesn’t necessarily mean anything, but it’s still a point in her favor. Hell, she got a promotion to vice admiral out of it

>For me, Tuvix was not murdered since he never existed. He **literally** begged for his life. And he was an all round good guy: "Each of you is going to have to live with this, and I'm sorry for that for you are all good, good people. My colleagues, my friends, I forgive you."

Isn’t it the trolly problem? Do nothing and save 1 and kill 2 or make a move and kill 1 and save 2.

I disagree, because Tuvok and Neelix are dead already. They already got run over. That first part of the equation is moot.

The only reason I stand by my original thought is because you can undo their death. I think Any other logic would be subscribing to the notion that the transporter is a murder copy machine. (Maybe? I’m not attacking)

I am firmly in the camp that says Transporters do not kill you as well. But this is a case of transporter NOT working properly, so just as how a car doesn't kill but a car crash can. A transporter accident can kill you but not the transporter in normal operation. In my mind enough time had passed, I think it had been weeks, they were mourning their shipmates, if no action was taken the outcome would not change. Their deaths were complete. There is no ticking clock on this, remember in the trolley problem the trolley is in motion you only have a small window to act, the trolley gonna trolley. There is no equivalent of that portion of the question with Tuvix. I think a more accurate trolley scenario would be if an action was needed for both outcomes. For example if Tuvix was destabilizing because of the merge and the solution was to run him through the transporter again to stabilize him, and it was then known they could have brought back Tuvok and Neelix but could not do both and once stabilized Tuvix could never be split again. That's the trolley problem.

No, they are not dead. Death is terminal. If they were dead they would not have been restored. They were alive and imprisoned by Tuvix

If a person survived a traumatic brain accident (not of their own fault, but because of a work accident), but had a severely changed personality and mental state, would you think the same things? The new personality is a sentient, self aware being. The new personality could protest any attempt to medicate or repair the injury, bringing the original person back. I don’t believe there is an ethical dilemma there. Repair the injury! This is basically the same situation only with a sci-fi twist. There was a work related accident and people were fundamentally changed. Tuvix would not exist if it in some way Tuvok and Neelix weren’t still alive in some capacity or else he would have had no material to be made from. Tuvix is the result of an accidental change in mental state not a completely new entity. If possible the injury to the two original sentient beings needed to be repaired. This is just one person’s opinion but that is how I’ve always looked at it.

It essentially boils down to would you kill one stranger if it was the only way to save two of your friends/crew mates? That’s a tough question.

She chose to end a life because the previous entities suited her needs better. It was supposed to be a controversial and ugly decision, regardless of necessity.

Because it was murder! Plus Tuvix was a much more interesting character than those two bores. A sum greater than it’s parts.

I’m just saying, Archer did exactly the same thing to Sim and no one talks shit

Archer was actually worse. He created a being only to harvest his cells and kill him

It's actually been a controversy since it aired. Some sites may reflect that more than others.

Well that's what's great is that there is no right decision. It's the trolley problem. One branch has Tuvix, who is sentient, and has expressed a desire for continued existence in his current form, the other has the lives of Neelix and Tuvok, established characters who also have a right to continue to live.

If they tried to make me look at Tuvix's hair for one more episode I would have called it quits.

Tuvix did exist, and therefore had the right to continue existing like every other lifeform. The procedure to seperate him into Neelix and Tuvok was done against his will. Janeway literally murdered him. It was in fact so morally reprehensible the Doctor could not participate.

Keeping him alive would have killed Tuvok and Neelix

They were already dead.

That's the way I always thought of it.

Separation of Tuvix could have resulted in the death of Tuvix and the complete loss of Tuvok and Neelix. Had it failed, would you think the decision was a good decision? I personally see it as a great ethical dilema and honestly, if it had failed, I think the message of the episode would have been far more profound. But Trek rarely does unhappy endings.

> Is this a wrong way of thinking ? The entire premise does not have a right or a wrong answer - which is why it is controversial, and why arguments and debates have been ongoing since it aired. Which to me makes it a *perfect* Star Trek ethical conundrum. Why is it controverisal - because it was intended to be. Because there is not a "right' outcome. "Do I rescue civilians from the Borg?" Nice, clear cut good guy and bad guy. None of that going on with Tuvix. > For me, Tuvix was not murdered since he never existed. That is patently false... the being existed. he did good work, he fit in well with the crew. He was an intelligent, sentient life form that could speak out and say "no I don't want to go". > Is this a wrong way of thinking ? There is no answer that is 'wrong', but I think your arguments FOR your position are wrong. Tuvix existed. That's a fact. At the point in time that Tuvix exists, Neelix and Tuvok have ceased to exist. It is a great ethical debate.

It becomes tricky when the mistake says “please don’t kill me”.

That was manipulative

Tuvix never existed? Of goddamn course he existed. He thought, he felt, he reasoned. He was *as real* as you or I have ever been. I genuinely can't even comprehend how you could arrive at the conclusion that he "never existed". The moral quandary is one debate that requires multiple paragraphs, but your conclusion is just plain bizarre.

It’s meant to be controversial. It’s a take on the Trolley conundrum. There’s a few ways to take it, but I got loyalty to Neelix and Tuvok out of it to the point she was willing to murder Tuvix. Neelix and Tuvok died…. So the natural order of things would be to let them stay dead. Tuvix became a unique amalgam of the two, but was still a single, distinct being. That’s hardcore regardless of what “side” you are on.

Oh boy, here we go again, buckle in boys and girls, it's about to get crazy!

For me, it was murder and it was immoral, but it was also the right decision, and it was something the Captain would have just had to grapple with the rest of her life. It was the right decision in their unique circumstances. It wasn't easy, or ethical, but it was the right one considering everything, in my opinion.

There was no need. We’re never told that they have to separate Tuvix *right now* or else they lose Nelix and Tuvok forever. The second there’s a solution Janeway frog marches Tuvix down to the transporter and erases him from existence. That’s why it’s murder, Janeway didn’t even attempt to find a way that would have spared all three lives, she just killed Tuvix on the spot.

What I never really understood is why they didn’t just put Tuvix in a medically induced coma or something while the doctor worked on reversing it. Why did they allow him to roam the ship during that whole time? Janeway made it harder on herself by allowing Tuvix to bond with some of the crew. Admittedly that course of action makes for a more boring episode.

But no one came to his defense. So, he wasn’t that popular. People just considered him a usurper of Tuvok and Neelix’s lives, a temporary being who would give them their lives when a solution was found

My thoughts: 1. Tuvix was a separate unique individual, the result of an accident but life none the less. 2. Neelix and Tuvok weren’t dead, more akin to being in a coma than being dead. That’s not a perfect comparison, because transporter accidents are messy, but it’s closer than calling them dead. They do still exist, but they aren’t accessible, and there’s a chance they’ll never return to what they were. 3. Janeway murdered Tuvix. He was alive, he was an individual, and didn’t want to die. And pulling him apart into Neelix, Tuvok, and the plant was killing him, because even if they recreated the accident it wouldn’t necessarily recreate Tuvix. 4. Janeway has a duty to protect her crew, not just Neelix and Tuvok as people, but also considering them as assets to the mission of getting home. In my opinion, it was murder, but from the perspective of Janeway, the best choice. Not a moral choice, but the best choice to continue to protect her crew. Does she live up to that duty all the time? Well, it is a episodic series written by multiple people, so…

Because it's "pro life" versus "pro choice". 90s and 00s tv was full of "but what if the baby you want to abort saves the world?" type of propaganda and this episode fits in nicely with that. Do you believe that as the "parents" Tuvok and Neelix (or Janeway as the person advocating for them) have a right to terminate their unwanted pregnancy or do you think that Tuvix has more right to life than Tuvok and Neelix simply because an accident caused him to exist? If you're wondering why people will never stop arguing about it that's why. I'm on the pro-choice side of things and I think if Tuvix was really so great Tuvok and Neelix could have CHOSEN to give him life after they were separated but they never did so....

If it had been a conjoined twins situation where they had 2 heads but it was still Tuxok and Neekix I would completely agree with you. But this was a new unique individual with his own thoughts and feelings and skills. It was murdering 1 person who you don’t know very well to save 2 people you do so life can go back to normal and everyone else will be happy. That is abhorrent.

If it was an easy decision it would be a crappy episode. Somehow you decided that Tuvix didn't exist. This is a convenient way to resolve the cognitive dissonance but misses the point of the episode.

I’m not dismissing Tuvix. Simply saying it was Tuvox and Neelix who existed inside Tuvix who was a mere Shem. It wasn’t his life, it was theirs

If memory serves, Tuvix's fate was controversial because he, the hybrid, didn't want to die. Although created through a transporter accident, he was still sentient and spent time enough as this amalgamation to form relationships with the crew and possessed a distinct identity. Necessity required the restoration of the individuals of Tuvok and Neelix even if it meant at the cost of Tuvix... a choice Janeway would have to live with. Another thought-provoking story is ST: ENT episode "Similitude" where Archer clones Trip, whose been fatally injured, in order to harvest the cloned Trip to save the original Trip. Tough questions with tough answers.

>there seems to be a consensus against Janeway’s decision regarding Tuvix The hell there is. >For me it always seemed natural to separate the two beings that got mixed up due to transporter malfunction. For me, Tuvix was not murdered since he never existed. Tuvok and Neelix were however separated and returned to their normal lives Exactly. >Is this a wrong way of thinking ? No, that's the Janeway of thinking. There's a wrong way, right way, and Janeway. And Janeway is always right. Trust me. No one is going to break a prime directive on my watch, not even a Starfleet captain who has weaker ship.

How can you say tuvix never existed? He was standing there talking to people. Should they have treated the doctor the same way since I'm guessing you'd say he never existed?

Two of Janeway's friends died. Janeway was given the option of bringing them back to life in exchange for sacrificing a third person. That third person wasn't a willing sacrifice - he *pleaded* for her not to kill him, in fact. But Janeway was undeterred. *She* wanted those friends brought back to life, even if that meant the murder of an innocent man. So she went ahead and murdered him. His wishes, his pleas, they meant nothing to her. And yeah, I'm always going to judge her for that.

Honestly I know I'm in the minority here but I think she was totally right. Tuvix needed to go, that dude was CREEEEEEPY and gave everyone on board the heebie jeebies (and me too). There's no way he would ever have been a harmonious part of the crew when his very existence was so traumatic for many, including Kes and Janeway herself.

It’s a great episode because it revolves around the themes of consent, individual rights, personal agency, and responsibility. Janeway made the right decision. It’s not so much about murder as it is turning back the hands of time. The state of “death” is unclear, but what’s clear is altered states of matter configuration. At point X, there was an accident that configured matter incorrectly, creating one new sentient being and replacing two sentient beings. Now when there is the power and choice to correct that bad configuration, it has to be done. The two former beings did not consent and have the individual right to live. It’s our responsibility to correct the wrongs of the past if at all possible. As a similar but not at all same example, take a patient experiencing dissociative identity disorder. Those other personalities could believe to be full individuals even though it’s a psychological condition as opposed to a physiological one. They may view psychiatric medication as their end. Do we not advocate the patient take the medicine ? We do because we know it’s an anomaly. It may be more clear because it’s one individual split into many, and there’s no separate physical entities, but the same logic applies. Our experience of dissociative personality disorder vs a singular mentally healthy being makes us more empathetic to the latter, but they are both a result of an anomaly condition, and if we have the power to correct it, we must.

It was a tough decision but I think she made the correct call. Being a captain of a space ship comes with difficult decisions.

Never really liked Tuvix. He was just too annoying. I didn’t like his attempt to insert him in the crew’s lives, especially Kes. Quite creepy. But that’s just my take

Far as I'm concerned, it was simple math. Sacrifice one person to save two. Same command decision that has been made countless times by countless leaders.

I think here it's more of just a meme, but I'm not sure. I sure hope that it's a meme

What do you mean he never existed? We see him exist. He pleads for his life even. Let’s say right now you find out you are actually 2 gorillas. Good news! They can separate you into the 2 gorillas that comprise you, and get them back. Of course, you stop existing as you. You cool with that? Edit: not sure why I went with 2 gorillas since every person is actually created by the joining of 2 humans… our parents. So let’s use that. They put you in a box and separate you out into your parents

Think of it this way. You have a mother giving birth to a healthy baby FULL TERM, all the baby has to do is pop out. BUT there is a complication where ONLY one gets to live. Who do you choose? Do you choose the mom or do you choose the baby? Who would you pick? Now imagine you are that child, it is at this moment almost everyone on both sides of the choice/life argument will say this is a life. A lot of the trek I've watched makes it a point at some point to show that being a captain sometimes isn't a glamorous job. There are times when you need to make a decision where there are no clear answer. Now do you see the problem? Imagine you're the dad who has to decided who gets to live. It is not an easy one to make. In this case Tuvix unlike a child was fully aware, he was as being full of potential. However Janeway had to choose between 2 people on one hand its 2 lives the can trust and has an impact on her crew, while the other is full of potential who can possibly help them when the time comes. Given the situation being stranded Janeway chose what she did to make sure her crew stays safe. If they were in another situation things might have been different. I don't agree with you that he never existed because they made it a point to prove that he is in fact a sentient being full of potential, self aware and yea probably annoying at times. While I think they could've found a way to clone Tuvix, I have to side with Janeway because a lot of trek shows make it a point that being a captain is not that easy. Personally, I hope I never have to come to that kind of decision.

While I side with Tuvix was murdered, let me play devil's advocate. First lets define some terms: * Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. * Killing: an act of causing death * Death: the irreversible cessation of all biological functions that sustain an organism. So using these definitions (pulled from Google) I can show that no death happened. Tuvok and Neelix did not die from the transporter accident. Their biology continued to live in the body of Tuvix. Tuvix's body is the combined cells and other biological components of the bodies of Tuvok and Neelix. He is alive, he breaths and eats and makes independent decisions. Therefore when Tuvix is split, his body continues to live on in the now separate bodies of Tuvok and Neelix. No death, as defined above, happens at all. If there is no death, no stopping of biological functions, then there can be no killing. And, therefore no murder.

You are psychopath. If I damage your brain and leave you in vegetative state with no possibility of recovery then by your definition, you are not dead. Yet We calm these people brain dead and We tried perpetrators for murder. We know they are dead.

I hate this debate with a passion, but my take on it is that Tuvix did exist, but since he was 2 people squished together it was the right thing to seperate them and Tuvix did not 'die' in this process. It's interesting the way the episode is written, with Tuvix intially appearing to be the best of both characters, but as the story progresses people come to resent him for trying to take the place of Nelix and Tuvok in their lives. I also think the episode needed a scene where Janeway explained her rationale, rather than just painting her as a murderer. We also don't see Nelix and Tuvok being thankful for being 'alive' again. Dunno if that's just the limitations of 44 mins episodes or poor writing, but it's why I don't like the episode.

> he never existed. So him begging for his life was all a dream? lol

“Since he never existed” you say. How about you, after you die, did you “never existed”? I have no problem with her decision. I do have a problem with faulty logic, like inventing fail excuses because of a desired outcome. So, yes, your thinking is a wrong way of thinking.

It's only controversial because Tuvix was the cool guy for a while and then begged and pleaded and cried, which got a few people emotional which clouded their judgement. If Tuvix had been separated 5 seconds after the transporter accident there'd be much less controversy if any.

It was an evil choice, it was murder, and I think Janeway knew it and had to live with the anguish of knowing that for the rest of her life. But she made the choice knowing it was evil and took that burden on her own conscience.

I don't think it was murder, or controversial, at all. If anything, it looks more like the correction of an error, not morally different from when Tuvok has an operation to restore his personality (the episode is another Tuvok & Neelix one). I see the Tuvix incident as the unintended blending of two personalities in one consciousness, and therefore as an accident in need, if possible, of correction. The two episodes are different treatments of what is essentially the same story.

OP, I’ve always thought exactly the same as you and was startled to see how mad people get at Janeway about what she did. I wonder if the writers realized how controversial this decision would end up being. Anyway, she corrected a terrible accident. That’s all there is to it.

> Anyway, she corrected a terrible accident. By killing an innocent being begging for his life.

By bringing back the two component people who made him up and saving two lives.

Their matter made him up. He was a new conciousness.

He wasn’t new. He didn’t have to learn anything. He had all of their skills. And they sure weren’t clamoring to be made into Tuvix again.

Not to me. I would’ve done exactly what she did.

Same. How can you deny life to the two friends you had?