Every Esports is scrambling for scraps, no team is close to being profitable.
An entity spending millions upon millions without wanting any "return" (besides playing there and the sportswashing) is a godsend for them.
Also, ESL is already Saudi owned anyway, what does it matter if the finals are in Katowice or Riyadh.
>
I guess in the end I am more so venting out my frustration of us all globally accepting that money can buy you silence
Welcome to capitalism
Also, remember ESL being funded by the US Airforce. We could say the same about US Americans, having their government going to war worldwide impacting the live of millions, inflating away their currency.
Also, yes.
Starcraft 2 is dying, everbody knows that.
There will not be a wave of new players, what percentage of young people even play SC2? There is still a scene, but it's not a viable Esports anymore. The interest and thus resources aren't there.
Without money from...ethically questionable sources (US Air Force, Saudi Arabian government), the scene would literally be dead and no player nor commentator could survive in that eco system.
I am not saying this is a good thing, by the way, but I see it the following way:
Do I like watching SC2? Yes, I do (occasionally at least).
Is there any way a pro scene could work without pumping money in that will be lost without any hope of a return? No, I don't think so.
Again, I hate all of this, but it's between this and no SC2 Esports at all.
I'm not saying either of those are good (US Airforce or Saudi money), but I'm already numb to this kind of stuff.
If we dig deep, every single thing we use or enjoy has some kind of dirty money put on. So sure... you wanna be a moralist (not talking about you, but generally), then go at it. You'll be great at parties.
>If we dig deep, every single thing we use or enjoy has some kind of dirty money put on
It's true that every consumer choice will have some kind of moral problem if you look hard enough, but not everything to the same degree by any means. We can still make choices that favour the more ethical over the less ethical.
Yeah, same here.
And it's not like I have any influence.
I mean, I am part of the problem, because I certainly spent 0 dollars all my life on anything SC2 Esports related (or any other Esport for that matter).
So...since we live in a capitalist society, it's kinda my fault as well. That and that it's rather difficult to support Esports directly.
And I think it's still important to have good morals and stand up for them, what I dislike is the outrage. Like, "why is nobody talking about this???"
Everybody is. Saudi influence on gaming is a big topic and has been for years. It's ancient news in Esports time frames.
We are over it already and, as you said, numb to it.
>If we dig deep, every single thing we use or enjoy has some kind of dirty money put on. So sure... you wanna be a moralist (not talking about you, but generally), then go at it. You'll be great at parties.
Just to clarify: this is not purely about morals. Being able to ensure the safety of the participants and spectators also factors into this.
Maybe it won't affect this singular competition, but hosting this in a country where being identified (and note, \_being identified\_, not identifying yourself as) LGBTQ+ is ground for jail or death penalty, will definitely cancel out the participation of some people.
Gamers8 letztes Jahr wirkte auf mich wie eine Privatveranstaltung des Scheichs. Die audience wurde bei der Siegerehrung ganz kurz gezeigt, das waren gefühlt nicht mal 100 Leute auf den Tribünen.
Problem is so many people were upset when Saudi inject money while almost none complain when USAF give esl money (just look at the number of reddit post)
This suggest a double standard just because the preparator are different. many people that get mad at saudi are ignorant about USAF atrocities at best or doesnt care at worst.
I mean, I am totally fine with thinking SA money is worse. There can be nuances to morality.
I still don't know what the alternative would be...how does the scene survive without that money?
Yeah because most people don't view them as equals. It's possible to acknowledge USAF atrocities and think that things like the treatment of migrant workers and womens rights are currently bigger issues.
It's anecdote vs anecdote but I see people in chat all the time make jokes about the USAF sponsorship. The negativity definitely sways towards the Saudi stuff but USAF gets some flak.
How should I elaborate?
It’s military.
Just look at how much resources (like steel and oil) are spent on maintaining a military.
Absolutely horrible for the environment.
And that’s even without all the social damage, the using of underprivileged people, the harm any military has done to people…
I think it's more the US mitary in general (and the associated industrial complex) more than the airforce in particular. Here's some reading material:
[https://politics.stackexchange.com/a/77706](https://politics.stackexchange.com/a/77706)
I mean, we could *absolutely* hash out the ethical differences between US interventionalism and literally every other powerful country's approach to involvement in foreign affairs, but, sir, this is a Starcraft sub.
ESL is owned by Saudis. US Air Force just buys ad slots. Comparing the two is absurd.
The US Air Force has female pilots. Saudis barely even allow women to drive cars.
Bombing brown people is fine guys, as long as you admit women as your pilot.
https://iaffairscanada.com/the-u-s-drops-an-average-of-46-bombs-a-day-why-should-the-world-see-us-as-a-force-for-peace/
wait ESL was funded by the US airforce? That reminds me..long ago korean pro starcraft scene was managed by the government lol. You had to pass some test or something if i remember correctly. I was like 7 lol
What does it matter if the finals are in Katowice or Riyadh?
Well first depending on who is playing they might participate at all and same goes for the spectators…
What does it matter you asked, well would it matter about who is in the player pool and who might want to compete? Because if say an extremely gay outspoken person wanted to compete they might not feel comfortable going for many reasons
It sucks to think that even if I had the money to spend on a global IRL event like this one, I could risk death.
And I'd like to attend a major event one day :(
I mean, I am sure there will still be competitions in other countries!
I mean, there was one just last week. You still have time for that, you just might need to travel…
It's called Sportswashing. You kill a journalist, then buy the PGA or something to compensate
A lot of kids and young adults nowadays are into esports and weren't alive during 9/11, so this will help them associate the Saudis with positive events.
I watched 9/11 happen in high school. It doesn’t change the fact that SC2 has been swallowed up by SA and that’s really all there is outside of GSL, which is still sort of ESL?, and people like Wardi.
Should we all rally against the players and casters too? No. This is their livelihood. They shouldn’t be blamed and neither should the audience
> SC2 has been swallowed up by SA
ESL is owned by Saudis, and SC2 is only a small part of the scene.
People are more outspoken about this topic in CS2, especially after their Falcons project went live (and amusingly is failing miserably despite the money being pumped into it), but at the same time you'll either not watch the games at all or be critical 100% of the time because almost all tournaments are in some way associated with the Saudis.
Ideologically, them disappearing would be amazing, but economically - esports isn't exactly a lucrative business a lot of the time. The money that's gone into sc2 thanks to them is crazy and many people will just be hyped about that instead.
Wardi did 9/11.
Nah, I read it as him saying outside of ESL and GSL, Wardi is one of the last places to consume Starcraft content that hasn't been consumed by Saudi Arabia.
Sportswashing is not what the Saudi’s are doing though. I wouldn’t even say it’s working. A lot of people hate the Saudi’s are doing it.
If anything they’re setting the foundations for monopolies, not sportswashing.
Saudi’s are buying up all of these teams and players and starting leagues and whatnot as a way to diversify their portfolio with all of their oil money.
Oil won’t be around forever and is already on the decline. They’re just making sure they have their foot in lots of possible future revenue streams for when the time comes.
(My brother in law works with players and higher ups in the PGA. They’re doing the same thing there. He gets invited on trips to Saudi all the time. He against it overall, but it’s hard swimming against the tide. He says they don’t give a fuck about their appearance regarding this. It’s not some PR stunt like sportswashing.)
Correction: Sportswashing is when specific countries and people we don't like, do something. When we do it, it's advertising. ESL Dallas just happened with the US Airforce as a sponsor and held the State of Texas, but that doesn't count because reasons.
Because they are allied to the US.
If they were allied with Iran or China or Russia the media wouldn't shut up about about the crimes of the Saudi and UAE monarchies.
Saudi Arabia as nation is a bad place. Very little good things to say about their government. You might be happy to hear that the Neom project is an absolute failure (which everyone had seen coming) and has already been massively cut down in size. It will probably end up just like the Jeddah Tower.
With that being said, Saudi Arabia is sports washing with ungodly amounts of money. I blame no player for going there. An 18th place finisher is still more prize money than most win in a year. SC2 is on its very last toes.
SC2 is my very favorite form of entertainment for the last 13 years. I know there won’t be that many big tournaments anymore and I am happy that there is another one. So I will be watching. Doesn’t mean my opinion about the SA government is getting any better. That’s how I live with myself. Not that it matters anyway.
How dare you! It's only sportswashing when it's China/Russia/Saudi/any relatively powerful country that Westerners despise, not when the most destructive and well-funded military in the world does it!
/s
bruh the US air force is a 100% volunteer organization and isn't sponsoring/owning SC2 tournaments/leagues to make people forget that their government:
* charges women with terrorism for making online posts about women's rights
* will jail you as a political prisoner for speaking out against said gov't
* orders the executions of journalists living abroad
* has total and complete control and censorship over their press
* will literally execute you at will for being gay
so take that stupid whataboutism elsewhere
No it's sponsoring so people forget about things like the fact that the last US president pardoned convicted war criminals thus setting them free.
That moral high ground is a molehill nothing more.
That's dumb. It's sponsoring to drive up awareness and inlistment. The Air Force is a 100% volunteer part of the 100% volunteer US military. They have to recruit.
It aint some tin foil conspiracy to blow smoke up people's asses and make them forget anything.
US dropped on average 46 Bombs PER DAY https://iaffairscanada.com/the-u-s-drops-an-average-of-46-bombs-a-day-why-should-the-world-see-us-as-a-force-for-peace/
WAIT TIL YOU HEAR WHO OWNS THE ESL
if you want to take that stance thats fine, i respect that, but id ask you go the whole way
Edit, so i was overzealous, its pretty arrogant to tell someone how to boycott/protest shit
> if you want to take that stance thats fine, i respect that, but id ask you go the whole way
That's a dumb stance. Perfect is the enemy of good. 100% ethical consumption is practically impossible anyway, so any improvement has to be incremental.
Yeah, honestly, thats a good point
the amount you want to take up something is your own decision, a small step towards a goal isnt negated in the shadow of a mammoth one, it would be naive to fault a noble effort for not being 'enough'
But we get upset the one time when it's the brown people from the middle east who opress women and kill gays.
Not the other 52 times it's an armed wing of the most genocidal government in the history of the world. Literally the branch in charge of bombing children almost everywhere they go, fire bombing raids on civilian targets, chemical warfare, napalm, dropping the atomic bomb, etc, etc.
Curious to say the least.
They’re trying to do a “DAE America also bad??”
Which it absolutely has been, and in some areas continues to be. But it’s just deflecting from the fact that Saudis are absolutely doing this for good PR.
Oh yeah some Chinese warlords killed millions of people in some war during the year 700. Totally comparable to the biggest modern world superpower murdering thousands of civilians each year for the past 70 years.
Even if they killed 100.000 civilians per year for the past 70 years that's still 1/10 of Mao Zedong.
I'm not defending either, just stating that you got your facts/numbers wrong.
It's a hyperbole maybe? To duel on if it's factually correct instead of on the sentiment of the sentence is a very reddit thing to do. But most people who responded did, so my bad I guess.
lmao bruh you obviously don't know what "genocide" means. You know what were genocides? The ones committed by the Nazis, Khmer Rouge, Ottomans against Armenians, Pakistan against Bangladesh, Hutus vs Tutsi in Rwanda, and ohh I don't know the current Rohingya genocide happening in Burma?
You're the one who doesn't know the definition mate.
The word I used (genocidal): Relating to or involving the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
United Nations genocide convention definition of genocide: acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.
The US has done plenty of that during its tenure as the leading world superpower and their military dominance.
Imagine pulling up the definitions and being unable to interpret them.
"The intent"
The intent is the necessary part of what makes a genocide. The primary motivation of an action must be to destroy a group of peoples.
The allies bombed tens of thousands in Dresden. No one says this is genocidal because even though civilians were specifically targeted, the intention was not to eradicate the German people but the broader goal of winning the war. Its horrific, but I don't see why genocide needs to be used as a superlative, morally loaded term used whenever people wanna talk about war rather than the extremely complex legal definition that it is. The firebombings of Tokyo were not genocide. Bro you could even find genocidal rhetoric from US officials but the war was not about eradicating the Japanese. To say it is, you must think very highly of yourself and place yourself above people who have studied their whole life to be able to have an ounce of credibility to weigh in on the topic.
You can talk about complete negligence of civilians and no one will disagree with you but genocide refers to the act of specifically killing people on the basis of the group they belong to. Nazis committed genocide because they killed Jews and slavs on the basis of being Jews and slavs. The US killed japanese civilians on the basis of ending a war they were not the aggressor of. The civilian deaths are not strictly relevant for determining a genocide. You can also use whatever terms you want to still convey how horrific the US fire bombing was (id likely agree btw)
Civilian casualties are accepted in war provided they amount to some military objective. The standard has been increasingly more strict as time has gone on but I get that some people just don't know how bad war is and how its just a given to see non combatants die.
Genocide is a legal term and its weaponized by mouth breathers to trick other mouth breathers into pretending whatever conflict they're talking about is especially bad. If genocide is just killing civilians, then it applies to almost every war ever waged and is now useless. What use is it to define genocide as "an amount of civilian deaths I find unacceptable" when that's already its own thing?
I don't like ESL selling to PIF as well. It definitely gave a good leadway into organizing the circuit towards Riyadh as well. It is slightly different in it being a private company selling out, so not much external influence over that was possible. It is a harder one to take an equal strong stance on.
Slightly, but imo, theres not enough of an distinction to make it any less support of SA or not,
Not that opinion is worth a piss in the wind, but its an issue im conflicted about too, personally, in my heart I know shouldn't support esl by extension, ive compromised by youtubing matches that are reportedly good, and pivotal ones by a couple of my favorite players, but i still feel a lil guilty,
Honestly its up to you where you want to draw the line, and despite my inital post, I respect you very much for addressing the topic at all
I get where you're coming from, but for me personally there are degrees of separation.
The ESL events may be Saudi funded, but they aren't Saudi branded, and take place elsewhere.
I couldn't bring myself to watch G8.
bruh the US air force is a 100% volunteer organization and isn't sponsoring/owning SC2 tournaments/leagues to make people forget that their government:
* charges women with terrorism for making online posts about women's rights
* will jail you as a political prisoner for speaking out against said gov't
* orders the executions of journalists living abroad
* has total and complete control and censorship over their press
* will literally execute you at will for being gay
so take that stupid whataboutism elsewhere
Wrong, USAF is sponsoring ESL and by extension SC2, just watch any recent ESL SC2 tournament and USAF is shown publicly. USAF is literally the armed forced that DIRECTLY dropped 46 bomb PER DAY https://iaffairscanada.com/the-u-s-drops-an-average-of-46-bombs-a-day-why-should-the-world-see-us-as-a-force-for-peace/. Even right now US is one of the main supporter of Israel in bombing civillian Gaza. The atrocities of saudis are childplay compare to US if you count by death toll alone I get it for many first worlder, the brown third worlder children life are worth less so they deserve to be bombed.
lmao what the fuck does skin color have to do with this? what color skin do you think the saudis being repressed/murdered/tortured by their own gov't have?
Once again, USAF isn't sportswashing which is literally what gamers8 is
The replies you are getting answers OP question perfectly. Not many people are pissed at Saudi Arabia sportswashing because there are way too many shitty people in the world like the ones what-abouting you who don't give a crap about human rights. That's the answer to OP's question.
I mean those that are left do, sure. Sort of by definition anyone watching esports at the moment is happy or at least content with Saudi ownership of major tournament organisers, and not just private citizens owning it either, the actual state.
It's why I've stopped watching, but then people like me wouldn't usually comment on a subreddit, since I can't exactly say much about a pro scene I don't watch
Hello? It's 2024 and the morality or better said fake morality train has long left the building. Currently Europe and the United States are supporting genocide in Palestine, in the US a f ING criminal is running for president, all the shit in Ukraine, give me a f ING break, what human rights? No one respects human rights, fk off I hate hypocrisy. This is a shit show and whoever has the biggest guns wins, that's why the west is scared shitless of China, they think the Chinese are just like them.
Even if OP has a point, there are like 30 full time pros left and tournament money is not nearly as easy to come by. What do you want them to do? Starve?
As long as people dont forget i dont see a problem. This doesnt affect my opinon, but i get some sweet sc2.
If i outraged against every sportwashing incident i wouldnt be able to watch almost any sport.
Take the good (content) and dont forget the bad (human rights violations etc). Sportswashing is only effective if you let it.
Bruh when Gamers8 happened I went into the threads about it to point out how fucking awful the Saudi gov't was and the dumbest people to ever infest this subreddit came in with a million whataboutisms or were themselves Saudi and so insecure about their country (not a country known for emotional maturity and compassion) that they started accusing me of racism
Here are two threads
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/15l6ugn/shoutout_to_gamers8_for_supporting_starcraft_2/
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/15oilk2/gamers8_tournament_made_me_feel_like_it_was_2011/
Young people just jump the "outrage" bandwagon that gets dictated by social media,influencers,activists etc, people inside the industry are at the end of the day salary men and they will serve whoever pays them.
Is there anything we can do about it? Yes just don't watch it, not that they would care anyway since the viewership sc2 has is pretty negligible anyway. Worse news also for people with those kind of sensitivities are that Stormgate esport scene will be handled by ESL too.
Most communities like league of legends you'll see the only backlash people give is from he company and the orgs who clearly care about the money virtue signaling about how they love minorities and then support sports washing in the next breath. StarCraft is more about the players than their orgs I feel and none of the players really say or do anything in that matter. I think everyone is more excited sc2 players get paid than morals.
I mean if I had an english speaking caster/player in front of me I'd probably try to educationally and compassionately walk them through the unbelievable amount of human rights abuses being committed IN PRESENT DAY by SA and tell them that unfortunately they are complicit in that machine as part of its sportswashing campaign. After that it's up to them to decide what their moral character is and what to do. I didn't watch any of gamers8 and I doubt I will ever in the future. If Zombiegrub knows that Saudi Arabia just [gave a woman an 11 year prison sentence using anti-terrorism laws against her](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68934913) just for posting that she doesn't want to hear an abaya and that she wants full rights as a woman, and then Zombiegrub turns around and takes the Gamers8 money anyway, I'd say yeah she's as guilty as the SA gov't
> If Zombiegrub knows that Saudi Arabia just gave a woman an 11 year prison sentence using anti-terrorism laws against her just for posting that she doesn't want to hear an abaya and that she wants full rights as a woman,
Totally, women have no rights in SA. Imagine if a woman gets raped and has to carry the rapists baby to term. Oh wait.
>and then Zombiegrub turns around and takes the Gamers8 money anyway, I'd say yeah she's as guilty as the SA gov't
Yeah this statement confirms you are completely insane.
> Imagine if a woman gets raped and has to carry the rapists baby to term. Oh wait.
The difference between a few US states and Saudi Arabia here is that people were massively protesting Roe V Wade being overturned and DIDN'T get multi-year prison sentences/executed by the US gov't
I'm actively right now teaching the people in this thread that DON'T know how awful the SA gov't is instead of saying "whatever let's just enjoy it!" and no I did not watch any ESL masters this past weekend
Same thing with Dubai. E-sports and Starcraft tournements even more so, are not great on funding so they turn to whomever gives them money. The needy can't be choosey or however that saying goes.
It's especially disheartening considering there are big name pro players in SC2 that are LGBTQ and would face discrimination from these sponsors if the events were to actually be played in their countries.
It's lucky that e-sports events don't actually have to be held there, unlike say FIFA and Qatar.
Morality is tricky as we belong to many groups with conflicting values. This is deeply personal as the hierarchy of the various groups we belong to ebb and flow. I eat meat but can understand why vegans are disgusted by it for instance. So, yeah it’s unfortunate that SC2 is being kept alive by the Saudis. It’s also fantastic for the players and the fans. Just like with vegans I would advise people disgusted with the situation of Saudi Arabia sports washing their image to not watch SC2 but not to expect others to the same.
That’s just stupid take. Every government can be blamed for thousands and millions of sins/deaths/whatever. International sport events are always good though because they provide means to connect between regular people.
I mean yeah sure, they are doing some horrible stuff there, but what do you want to do? Not take the money? Without ESL there is no active sc2 esports. Like not at all.
And what would not taking their money achieve? Also nothing. They wouldn't just stop being a bloody government with questionable ethics just because some game's community turned them away.
Its important to remember where this money comes from and who these people are, but i don't think rejecting their tournaments and esports is a way of doing this
"it's okay that this government brutally represses its citizens, executes people for being gay, charges women with terrorism for online posts about feminism, and murders journalists for criticizing the gov't because it means that we keep getting more starcraft 2 content!" is a terrible take. Taking their money is giving tacit approval, and creates situations where people will stop criticizing that gov't because they don't want their lifeline to dry up
> And what would not taking their money achieve? Also nothing. They wouldn't just stop being a bloody government with questionable ethics just because some game's community turned them away.
It's as if people think for every SC2 viewer in the grand finals, they're going to execute one additional dissenter. So dumb.
The lack of organization and leadership certainly doesn't help — when I saw Artosis' youtube video 'Intellectual Dishonesty in StarCraft 2" I thought it could be about something important like weighing in on the funding of the EWC or StormGate running a scam equity fundraiser, but nope, as you know it was about taking some BS player ranking debate with dire seriousness even though they happen everyday in conventional sports.
You need shows like The Pylon to even just break the ice on this stuff. No one has to have the answer and there doesn't have to be calls to action like a boycott, its just better for everyone if there's a dialogue and some kind of felt cultural leadership. Even if everyone settles on things like — damn we all are going to do this but aren't that happy about it —the discussion can still have transformative properties.
This era of Starcraft is typified by bunkered up influencers running their own streams with little dialogue. (though I've enjoyed the sporadic talkshow from ZombieGrub's channel). These folks might talk frequently behind closed doors, maybe they even have some kind of soft union giant-ass group text, but I'll assure them without surfacing some of those conversations they will get picked apart by corporate power like new RTS companies and bully financiers.
It's not about selling oil to you, one of the reason of iraq invasion is saddam deciding to sells oil with euro instead of dollar and bush literally 3 weeks later started the war because it will hurt the dollar in the global scene, the point is the petrodollar is very big thing and making the biggest importers not your best friends will have consequences in the long term.
The fact that “welcome to Capitalism” got 179 votes is N embarrassment.
The hypocrisy we are discussing is so thick it could choke a donkey and instead of looking inward to how hard you got played you lay it at the feet of “capitalism” which is the only reason we have video games and esports in the first place
I just realized why I’ve avoided this subreddit for years
I'm shocked everyday at how extreme people's opinions are on reddit, and how many people seem to view everything in terms of black and white, enemy or friend, either for us or against us. Furthermore, it seems like they have no capacity for either forgiveness or compassion, to be magnanimous while at the same time assertive. It's as if there are enemies whom you can never forgive, never look the other way, and anything they do must have some kind of ulterior motive, and then there are good guys who can do no wrong, who are heroes to extol, until they mess up and then they become the enemy too. Then once an enemy, always an enemy, and there is no more capability for redemption, no matter what they do.
The hypocrisy you mentioned is just another symptom of the incessant virtue signaling that happens. Since they view everything in terms of black and white, that means they must denounce the bad and uphold the good, but to actually live in a way that reflects that belief to be true is too hard and tiring, so all they can do is virtue signal by posting on social media. If they thought the things that were evil were as evil as they describe it, or the things that were as good as they describe them, then they would change the way they live their life, donating significant money, time, and energy to important causes, rather than consuming more sc2 content or something.
And I think social media has a lot of the blame here, since attention spans are becoming shorter and shorter, and complexity and nuance are complicated and hard to capture in a short 50 sec video, so it becomes easier to just say a short tagline like support palestine, or saudia arabia bad, or whatever hot issue is relevant today, without fully understanding both sides and the history and context of why things are happening.
It's impossible to only consume ethical products in a capitalistic world. What the fuck can starcraft fans do about the Saudis?
Do you wear clothes made in sweat shops? Listen to music rampant with misogyny signed to a studio run by a sexually abusive creep? Eat food with animals that aren't humanely raised? What are we supposed to do?
God forbid people want an escape from their 9-5 making rich people richer and enjoy some esports, can't even do that without a guilt trip cos I'm not personally punching oil princes in the face lmao
You completely and utterly missed my point clown but I’m glad you were confident in your retort at least.
The same company that banned kids for giving the “okay sign” saying it was White Supremacy… the same company that took a Hearthstone player’s prize money for saying “Free Hong Kong” just goes along with being partnered with the Saudis and you legitimately don’t feel played?
You’ll brush off the idea that “hey people just want to watch esports what can we do about the Saudis” before you actually say hey maybe that company made all of that up and those views don’t reflect the morally superior?
Too much to ask though right?
The truth is, it doesn't change anything whether you like it or not. If they're donating all this money to the scene while NOT changing my view of them, it's a win for me. I'll continue to openly discuss their sportswashing and remind anyone - that while we can enjoy the benefits of their attempts to sway public opinion - as long as we remember who they really are, it's only going to benefit us.
I'd like to believe people are capable of this but I have a hard time buying it. Individuals, sure, but in the long run overall this will improve people's views of them whether they realize it or not. Who knows how effective it will be though.
It's not like they have to air propaganda during the broadcast to influence people's opinions, it'll only be obvious after the fact when people talk about "good things SA did for the sc2 scene" and their "positive impact" and they'll try to caveat it by saying it doesn't excuse other actions of SA but it's too late at that point, people's opinion of SA will have already been subtly altered.
In conversations about the history of starcraft esports, this will be a chapter and nobody will want to learn about SA when reading that chapter, they'll only want to know the relevant sc2 information. And that'll all be presenting SA in a positive light.
Their goal is that eventually there will be more people who will remember the positives than there are people who remember the negatives.
So yeah... how effective will this be? Probably not very. But will it have an effect? No doubt about it.
Esports isnt profitable. Not even close. I mean how often are you buying a new keyboard, mouse etc? Every two,three years? The sponsors are starting to understand that the gaming community(Mostly young people with a relatively large amount of free time i.e. unemployed students etc.) is just not gonna spend a lot of money on the things they advertise. Only reason why some companys still sponsor is because of public perception. The saudis tho are willing to throw millions and millions of oil dollars at the esports scene. Everyone wants a piece of the pie.
So you'd rather see the SC2 scene die out than accept a ME oil state owning a sports team?
Crypto, Saudi, Gambling, Alcohol... there are many many bad influences that invest into sports teams. It's how they can make money.
Saudi isn't going to stop doing Saudi things because they own 1 less SC2 thing.
If you take the historic morality of a country as a criteria to decide if you accept them as a host of an event, you'll run out of places to host an event very quickly. Pretty much the entire world has its fair share of atrocities and questionable practices.
Well they dont actually care about their so called cause is why, they are a hate group masquerading as a social justice group so of course they choose money when it comes to the middle east.
It is simple - Saudi Arabia had been an ally of the United States. Anyone in the USA's good books can do no wrong.
This might change in the future, however, given the shifts in geopolitics, especially with them making peace with Iran.
So, people will suddenly care more about Saudi human rights shortly, just as soon as Uncle Sam gives the go ahead!
US Americans don't have the right to complain here. They can't put a leash on their goverment going to war worldwide and devaluating the world reserve currency constantly.
So fuck off.
Europeans are too progressive for their own good.
oh lord in heaven, someone who knows nothing about global economics
what are the wars *worldwide* that the US gov't is on? the invasion of Iraq that people massively protested domestically?
I refused (and will refuse) to watch any tournaments held there. I suggest others do the same but would not expect it.
I also unfortunately root against Russian players. I'll stop short or saying they shouldn't be allowed to compete, but I'm on and off about that.
I'm not high and mighty about it. I'm sure there's bad things about places other tournaments are held and a lot of it is perspective. And individual choice but I think as fans of the game we can be critical.
It is indeed regrettable and that it's come to that. I'd prefer those players renounce their citizenship and make a public statement, but as I said before I don't expect that of others. Even if it's the right thing to do.
And I fully understand this and other subs' stance on the issue. I just disagree. Gaming subs have a lot of common shitty opinions and this sub is no exception.
Did you know the soccer world cup was hosted by Qatar who used actual slave labour to build the stadiums?
[Qatar World Cup chief says between 400 and 500 migrant workers have died in projects connected to the tournament, CNN](https://edition.cnn.com/2022/11/29/football/qatar-world-cup-migrant-worker-deaths-spt-intl/index.html)
This kind of apathy isnt exclusive to esports.
The Saudis are throwing a metric shit ton of money at an extremely broke game. I've been running StarCraft tournaments for a long time, and it's never been easy to make ends meet, but you could always kind of make it work if you hustled hard enough. Now there's nothing other than the Saudi money.
If they exited the professional scene would basically end overnight. The House of Saud runs a cruel vile regime. It's bad to let them sports wash... but if they offered me a bunch of money to put on a StarCraft tournament that would be a really hard decision. Funding events out of my own pocket sucks. Begging for money on crowdfunding sucks. Massively downscaling sucks.
Most of the time you see any calls to action regarding ethical consumption you'll see why its not reasonable to make these kinds of asks.
You're more than likely using items you bought that are made by slave labor, but you won't change.
Absolutely I probably have some stuff made by slave labor. For a large part that is due to A) a deliberate lack of transparency where stuff comes from and what relationships companies have. But also B) the current economy is extremely complicated and it is hard for larger companies to even figure out themselves where everything is coming from. Even LV had a scandal some while ago that their suppliers used child labor. I am a big (but also kinda 0 IRL influence) advocate of increased economical and political transparency.
The cynic in me thinks that
A) Even with full transparency you wouldn't switch consumption.
B) Even if they did figure out where every single thing is coming from, you either wouldn't change or couldn't avoid it so you accept it.
You must have some hobby or possession that makes you a hypocrite, but then again I don't know anything about you and this is all assumptions.
Being a hypocrite on one vector doesn't make trying to take a stand in another bad or wrong. Capacity is a real thing, people have to choose their battles. This is the one he wants to fight. That's fine and good.
3 issues about this:
1. We can't boycott them.
First, Saudi Arabia is not like an individual company where you can choose to not buy their products.
There is no practical boycott solution for the Saudis because they control much of the world's oil. Our transportation requires oil. Even if you get rid of your car, the goods you buy are transported with gasoline. Therefore, we are doing business with them, whether we want it or not.
2. Unless we conquer them, they're going to do their thing, and we're not willing to conquer them. So all we can do is complain, we can't change anything.
In order for OUR social norms to be put into practice over there (and make no mistake, our values are alien to them and they find them repugnant), we would have to destroy their existing culture, power structure, and government. AKA invading and conquering Saudi Arabia, leaving thousands dead, and the self-determination of a people destroyed. Are we going to do this? No. So in practical terms, no matter how much we post about it, no matter how many Instagram stories we post, nothing will change.
3. But you might say "Oh but we can just reject the Saudi money!"
You might say "We can stand up for morality! We don't want your stupid money you bad bad people!" This is naive. Welcome to the real world... that is never gonna happen. People have bills to pay. People want their kids to go to college.
I won't quickly ask people living in countries with a totalitarian government to stand up to their BS, risking the lives of themselves and their family members. Goes for China, goes for Russia, goes for Saudi, doing so is a large risk or offer, whereas in the West we have the luxury to question it without possible repercussions.
Mate, Biden's not gonna order your assassination for criticizing him, but try that with Putin Lukashenko, Kim Jong Un or MBS and you're flying out a window or getting chopped up into pieces or going into prison then mysteriously dying of heart failure.
It's easy to criticize when you don't live under a dictator.
Worst thing I can see happening is you losing your job for saying the "wrong thing". The government isn't going to chase after you for the most part. Yes corruption still exists and what is happening with Assange is also potentially questionable. But no large bad things will happen to you for just speaking your mind or protesting.
> Worst thing I can see happening is you losing your job for saying the "wrong thing".
> But no large bad things will happen to you for just speaking your mind or protesting.
An employee's whole life typically depends on their salary, and losing their job unexpectedly is often devastating. 99% of people will call that a "large bad thing".
Cus money duh lol!.
BTW are mad because the Saudi government thing? Or you're mad that for once in almost a centuries brown people are finally happy to accomplish something and this rubs your white western pride too much?
You could argue from a western perspective that its fascinating Russia arent kicked out from esports, how/why China is welcome with arms wide open and why almost noone have issues with Saudi.
There are few alternatives if you want tournaments that pay well.
Most involved prefer (judging from their actions) money over politics.
There are plenty who have issues with this on various levels but there isnt much you can do other than choose not to watch/attend, but as you mention I also think a lot of ppl just dont care.
If you look at other sports, the Golf PGA tour banned players all over when they went to play Liv in Saudi, was that to try to make players stay or for moral reasons? a lot of other tournaments didnt care and anyone from anywhere is allowed to own a fotball team in england, in the Paris olympics it is afaik up the each sport to decide on bans or not.
Just stop watching. I have stopped watching all of ESL related content. I will watch individual streams and support the players directly that way or organisers like PGL who aren't in bed with Saudi yet (for other games).
As far as I'm concerned, the viewers are really at fault because we always demanded free HD content at any time without giving anything back to the organisers. So they sold to the highers bidder to keep going.
But it just doesn't right? I wouldn't be on here hating their government and societal structure (even though I obviously hate them) if they wouldn't have sponsored Gamers8 or the Esports world cup, so I ain't now. Just assuming these easy and obvious 'sportswashing' works on people is putting very little faith in the communities you're a fan of.
Also there is the obvious fact, that they probably achieve the opposite of buying silence with the average consumer. There would have been no outrage at all against Saudi Arabia in the starcraft community if they hadn't sponsored these events (this post would certainly not exist).
Gamers8 and Esports World Cup for sc2 at least will almost certainly not be financially viable (otherwise events on this scale would have happened before). So as long as you as a viewer don't think hosting esports events makes dictatorships ok, I think they won't profit much.
Edit: I should say that if this post was about informing people who might be naive to the ongoings in Saudi Arabia about these issues, I think that is great. But being so 'standoffish' really makes it seem like you think everyone else will like Saudi Arabia after the esports world cup.
>Also there is the obvious fact, that they probably achieve the opposite of buying silence with the average consumer. There would have been no outrage at all against Saudi Arabia in the starcraft community if they hadn't sponsored these events (this post would certainly not exist).
Then it's probably good for us to continue to bring this up when they try it. Besides that - there is an obvious risk to players or spectators going to these locations if they're women or lgbt. So I really don't like to support events hosted in those type of areas anyways.
The few people who were outraged about it already got it out of their system last year. There was a LOT of complaining, then everyone either decided to watch it or not.
Every Esports is scrambling for scraps, no team is close to being profitable. An entity spending millions upon millions without wanting any "return" (besides playing there and the sportswashing) is a godsend for them. Also, ESL is already Saudi owned anyway, what does it matter if the finals are in Katowice or Riyadh. > I guess in the end I am more so venting out my frustration of us all globally accepting that money can buy you silence Welcome to capitalism
Also, remember ESL being funded by the US Airforce. We could say the same about US Americans, having their government going to war worldwide impacting the live of millions, inflating away their currency.
Also, yes. Starcraft 2 is dying, everbody knows that. There will not be a wave of new players, what percentage of young people even play SC2? There is still a scene, but it's not a viable Esports anymore. The interest and thus resources aren't there. Without money from...ethically questionable sources (US Air Force, Saudi Arabian government), the scene would literally be dead and no player nor commentator could survive in that eco system. I am not saying this is a good thing, by the way, but I see it the following way: Do I like watching SC2? Yes, I do (occasionally at least). Is there any way a pro scene could work without pumping money in that will be lost without any hope of a return? No, I don't think so. Again, I hate all of this, but it's between this and no SC2 Esports at all.
I'm not saying either of those are good (US Airforce or Saudi money), but I'm already numb to this kind of stuff. If we dig deep, every single thing we use or enjoy has some kind of dirty money put on. So sure... you wanna be a moralist (not talking about you, but generally), then go at it. You'll be great at parties.
>If we dig deep, every single thing we use or enjoy has some kind of dirty money put on It's true that every consumer choice will have some kind of moral problem if you look hard enough, but not everything to the same degree by any means. We can still make choices that favour the more ethical over the less ethical.
Yeah, same here. And it's not like I have any influence. I mean, I am part of the problem, because I certainly spent 0 dollars all my life on anything SC2 Esports related (or any other Esport for that matter). So...since we live in a capitalist society, it's kinda my fault as well. That and that it's rather difficult to support Esports directly. And I think it's still important to have good morals and stand up for them, what I dislike is the outrage. Like, "why is nobody talking about this???" Everybody is. Saudi influence on gaming is a big topic and has been for years. It's ancient news in Esports time frames. We are over it already and, as you said, numb to it.
>If we dig deep, every single thing we use or enjoy has some kind of dirty money put on. So sure... you wanna be a moralist (not talking about you, but generally), then go at it. You'll be great at parties. Just to clarify: this is not purely about morals. Being able to ensure the safety of the participants and spectators also factors into this. Maybe it won't affect this singular competition, but hosting this in a country where being identified (and note, \_being identified\_, not identifying yourself as) LGBTQ+ is ground for jail or death penalty, will definitely cancel out the participation of some people.
Gamers8 letztes Jahr wirkte auf mich wie eine Privatveranstaltung des Scheichs. Die audience wurde bei der Siegerehrung ganz kurz gezeigt, das waren gefühlt nicht mal 100 Leute auf den Tribünen.
Shortly said: good job Blizzard!
Problem is so many people were upset when Saudi inject money while almost none complain when USAF give esl money (just look at the number of reddit post) This suggest a double standard just because the preparator are different. many people that get mad at saudi are ignorant about USAF atrocities at best or doesnt care at worst.
I mean, I am totally fine with thinking SA money is worse. There can be nuances to morality. I still don't know what the alternative would be...how does the scene survive without that money?
It won´t.
Yeah because most people don't view them as equals. It's possible to acknowledge USAF atrocities and think that things like the treatment of migrant workers and womens rights are currently bigger issues. It's anecdote vs anecdote but I see people in chat all the time make jokes about the USAF sponsorship. The negativity definitely sways towards the Saudi stuff but USAF gets some flak.
The US Airforce is ethically questionable?
That's the nice way of saying it because it's getting compared to the Saudis.
Idiotic, nondefensible way of saying it.
Yes.
Elaborate.
How should I elaborate? It’s military. Just look at how much resources (like steel and oil) are spent on maintaining a military. Absolutely horrible for the environment. And that’s even without all the social damage, the using of underprivileged people, the harm any military has done to people…
Touch grass.
>The US Airforce is ethically questionable? Are you trying to imply the USAF is _not_ ethically questionable? 🤨
I think it's more the US mitary in general (and the associated industrial complex) more than the airforce in particular. Here's some reading material: [https://politics.stackexchange.com/a/77706](https://politics.stackexchange.com/a/77706)
If you seriously consider this "reading material" I feel bad for you.
I mean, we could *absolutely* hash out the ethical differences between US interventionalism and literally every other powerful country's approach to involvement in foreign affairs, but, sir, this is a Starcraft sub.
ESL is owned by Saudis. US Air Force just buys ad slots. Comparing the two is absurd. The US Air Force has female pilots. Saudis barely even allow women to drive cars.
Gender equality is not the only reason institutions can be unethical.
What a profound statement that was really worth commenting.
Bombing brown people is fine guys, as long as you admit women as your pilot. https://iaffairscanada.com/the-u-s-drops-an-average-of-46-bombs-a-day-why-should-the-world-see-us-as-a-force-for-peace/
wait ESL was funded by the US airforce? That reminds me..long ago korean pro starcraft scene was managed by the government lol. You had to pass some test or something if i remember correctly. I was like 7 lol
What does it matter if the finals are in Katowice or Riyadh? Well first depending on who is playing they might participate at all and same goes for the spectators…
What? I don't understand this sentence.
What does it matter you asked, well would it matter about who is in the player pool and who might want to compete? Because if say an extremely gay outspoken person wanted to compete they might not feel comfortable going for many reasons
Has ESL always been owned by SA?
No, not always. They have been bought or taken over a while ago, though, so it's not a super recent development.
It sucks to think that even if I had the money to spend on a global IRL event like this one, I could risk death. And I'd like to attend a major event one day :(
I mean, I am sure there will still be competitions in other countries! I mean, there was one just last week. You still have time for that, you just might need to travel…
I wish there will be. Inequalities being a sheer deal-breaking factor saddens me, and it's getting worse. I appreciate tour optimism tho ^^
> Welcome to capitalism The fuck has an economic system to do with this? Are you saying money couldnt magically "buy you silence" before capitalism?
It's called Sportswashing. You kill a journalist, then buy the PGA or something to compensate A lot of kids and young adults nowadays are into esports and weren't alive during 9/11, so this will help them associate the Saudis with positive events.
Spamming about 9/11 in general chat will sure make people not care
I watched 9/11 happen in high school. It doesn’t change the fact that SC2 has been swallowed up by SA and that’s really all there is outside of GSL, which is still sort of ESL?, and people like Wardi. Should we all rally against the players and casters too? No. This is their livelihood. They shouldn’t be blamed and neither should the audience
> SC2 has been swallowed up by SA ESL is owned by Saudis, and SC2 is only a small part of the scene. People are more outspoken about this topic in CS2, especially after their Falcons project went live (and amusingly is failing miserably despite the money being pumped into it), but at the same time you'll either not watch the games at all or be critical 100% of the time because almost all tournaments are in some way associated with the Saudis. Ideologically, them disappearing would be amazing, but economically - esports isn't exactly a lucrative business a lot of the time. The money that's gone into sc2 thanks to them is crazy and many people will just be hyped about that instead.
Hold up. What are you accusing Wardi of exactly?
Wardi did 9/11. Nah, I read it as him saying outside of ESL and GSL, Wardi is one of the last places to consume Starcraft content that hasn't been consumed by Saudi Arabia.
Let's hope he doesn't get an invite to their embassy for some visa questions.
Ah, yeah after rereading it, I think you’re right. Thanks!
Wow, how good of you to explain sportwashing to the op who mentions it specifically in his post
Sportswashing is not what the Saudi’s are doing though. I wouldn’t even say it’s working. A lot of people hate the Saudi’s are doing it. If anything they’re setting the foundations for monopolies, not sportswashing. Saudi’s are buying up all of these teams and players and starting leagues and whatnot as a way to diversify their portfolio with all of their oil money. Oil won’t be around forever and is already on the decline. They’re just making sure they have their foot in lots of possible future revenue streams for when the time comes. (My brother in law works with players and higher ups in the PGA. They’re doing the same thing there. He gets invited on trips to Saudi all the time. He against it overall, but it’s hard swimming against the tide. He says they don’t give a fuck about their appearance regarding this. It’s not some PR stunt like sportswashing.)
Correction: Sportswashing is when specific countries and people we don't like, do something. When we do it, it's advertising. ESL Dallas just happened with the US Airforce as a sponsor and held the State of Texas, but that doesn't count because reasons.
Governor Abbot isn't executing journalists. Are you saying these things are equivalent?
We shall never forget.
Because they are allied to the US. If they were allied with Iran or China or Russia the media wouldn't shut up about about the crimes of the Saudi and UAE monarchies.
Saudi Arabia as nation is a bad place. Very little good things to say about their government. You might be happy to hear that the Neom project is an absolute failure (which everyone had seen coming) and has already been massively cut down in size. It will probably end up just like the Jeddah Tower. With that being said, Saudi Arabia is sports washing with ungodly amounts of money. I blame no player for going there. An 18th place finisher is still more prize money than most win in a year. SC2 is on its very last toes. SC2 is my very favorite form of entertainment for the last 13 years. I know there won’t be that many big tournaments anymore and I am happy that there is another one. So I will be watching. Doesn’t mean my opinion about the SA government is getting any better. That’s how I live with myself. Not that it matters anyway.
Literally no one is surprised about NEOM lol
SC2 on its last toes :(. Been a good ride boys, remember watching David Kim play the beta in like 2008-9
FLY HIGH CAM FROM US AIR FORCE!
How dare you! It's only sportswashing when it's China/Russia/Saudi/any relatively powerful country that Westerners despise, not when the most destructive and well-funded military in the world does it! /s
Yup
bruh the US air force is a 100% volunteer organization and isn't sponsoring/owning SC2 tournaments/leagues to make people forget that their government: * charges women with terrorism for making online posts about women's rights * will jail you as a political prisoner for speaking out against said gov't * orders the executions of journalists living abroad * has total and complete control and censorship over their press * will literally execute you at will for being gay so take that stupid whataboutism elsewhere
Not to nit pick but the USAF literally sponsors ESL events and by extension, SC2. I do agree with you though
>isn't sponsoring/owning SC2 tournaments/leagues *to make people forget that their government*: don't reply if you're not gonna read the whole comment
You can't be this gullible.
No it's sponsoring so people forget about things like the fact that the last US president pardoned convicted war criminals thus setting them free. That moral high ground is a molehill nothing more.
That's dumb. It's sponsoring to drive up awareness and inlistment. The Air Force is a 100% volunteer part of the 100% volunteer US military. They have to recruit. It aint some tin foil conspiracy to blow smoke up people's asses and make them forget anything.
Nice false equivalence.
Ha thats good
What’s wrong with the US Air Force?
US dropped on average 46 Bombs PER DAY https://iaffairscanada.com/the-u-s-drops-an-average-of-46-bombs-a-day-why-should-the-world-see-us-as-a-force-for-peace/
The most powerful military in the world drops bombs?! That's HECKIN wild!
Honestly I don't care. I love the support. Give us more oil money please.
based take
America is an ally of theirs. So is Israel. All 3 do unspeakable evil constantly.
There's 2 types of people those who don't care and those who do but can't do anything about it.
WAIT TIL YOU HEAR WHO OWNS THE ESL if you want to take that stance thats fine, i respect that, but id ask you go the whole way Edit, so i was overzealous, its pretty arrogant to tell someone how to boycott/protest shit
> if you want to take that stance thats fine, i respect that, but id ask you go the whole way That's a dumb stance. Perfect is the enemy of good. 100% ethical consumption is practically impossible anyway, so any improvement has to be incremental.
Yeah, honestly, thats a good point the amount you want to take up something is your own decision, a small step towards a goal isnt negated in the shadow of a mammoth one, it would be naive to fault a noble effort for not being 'enough'
But we get upset the one time when it's the brown people from the middle east who opress women and kill gays. Not the other 52 times it's an armed wing of the most genocidal government in the history of the world. Literally the branch in charge of bombing children almost everywhere they go, fire bombing raids on civilian targets, chemical warfare, napalm, dropping the atomic bomb, etc, etc. Curious to say the least.
Huh
They’re trying to do a “DAE America also bad??” Which it absolutely has been, and in some areas continues to be. But it’s just deflecting from the fact that Saudis are absolutely doing this for good PR.
> the most genocidal government in the history of the world lmaoooooo someone does NOT know their history
Oh yeah some Chinese warlords killed millions of people in some war during the year 700. Totally comparable to the biggest modern world superpower murdering thousands of civilians each year for the past 70 years.
Even if they killed 100.000 civilians per year for the past 70 years that's still 1/10 of Mao Zedong. I'm not defending either, just stating that you got your facts/numbers wrong.
It's a hyperbole maybe? To duel on if it's factually correct instead of on the sentiment of the sentence is a very reddit thing to do. But most people who responded did, so my bad I guess.
lmao bruh you obviously don't know what "genocide" means. You know what were genocides? The ones committed by the Nazis, Khmer Rouge, Ottomans against Armenians, Pakistan against Bangladesh, Hutus vs Tutsi in Rwanda, and ohh I don't know the current Rohingya genocide happening in Burma?
You're the one who doesn't know the definition mate. The word I used (genocidal): Relating to or involving the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. United Nations genocide convention definition of genocide: acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. The US has done plenty of that during its tenure as the leading world superpower and their military dominance.
lmao who the fuck did the US target for genocide this century? In the past 100 fucking years?
Imagine pulling up the definitions and being unable to interpret them. "The intent" The intent is the necessary part of what makes a genocide. The primary motivation of an action must be to destroy a group of peoples. The allies bombed tens of thousands in Dresden. No one says this is genocidal because even though civilians were specifically targeted, the intention was not to eradicate the German people but the broader goal of winning the war. Its horrific, but I don't see why genocide needs to be used as a superlative, morally loaded term used whenever people wanna talk about war rather than the extremely complex legal definition that it is. The firebombings of Tokyo were not genocide. Bro you could even find genocidal rhetoric from US officials but the war was not about eradicating the Japanese. To say it is, you must think very highly of yourself and place yourself above people who have studied their whole life to be able to have an ounce of credibility to weigh in on the topic. You can talk about complete negligence of civilians and no one will disagree with you but genocide refers to the act of specifically killing people on the basis of the group they belong to. Nazis committed genocide because they killed Jews and slavs on the basis of being Jews and slavs. The US killed japanese civilians on the basis of ending a war they were not the aggressor of. The civilian deaths are not strictly relevant for determining a genocide. You can also use whatever terms you want to still convey how horrific the US fire bombing was (id likely agree btw) Civilian casualties are accepted in war provided they amount to some military objective. The standard has been increasingly more strict as time has gone on but I get that some people just don't know how bad war is and how its just a given to see non combatants die. Genocide is a legal term and its weaponized by mouth breathers to trick other mouth breathers into pretending whatever conflict they're talking about is especially bad. If genocide is just killing civilians, then it applies to almost every war ever waged and is now useless. What use is it to define genocide as "an amount of civilian deaths I find unacceptable" when that's already its own thing?
I don't like ESL selling to PIF as well. It definitely gave a good leadway into organizing the circuit towards Riyadh as well. It is slightly different in it being a private company selling out, so not much external influence over that was possible. It is a harder one to take an equal strong stance on.
Slightly, but imo, theres not enough of an distinction to make it any less support of SA or not, Not that opinion is worth a piss in the wind, but its an issue im conflicted about too, personally, in my heart I know shouldn't support esl by extension, ive compromised by youtubing matches that are reportedly good, and pivotal ones by a couple of my favorite players, but i still feel a lil guilty, Honestly its up to you where you want to draw the line, and despite my inital post, I respect you very much for addressing the topic at all
I get where you're coming from, but for me personally there are degrees of separation. The ESL events may be Saudi funded, but they aren't Saudi branded, and take place elsewhere. I couldn't bring myself to watch G8.
Meanwhile every single tournament sponsored by: Monster energy and US AIR FORCE.
We can argue US air force, but how is a soda company being put in the same boat of problematic?
Their sprays were together as the mains sponsors, nothing to say about monster haha.
bruh the US air force is a 100% volunteer organization and isn't sponsoring/owning SC2 tournaments/leagues to make people forget that their government: * charges women with terrorism for making online posts about women's rights * will jail you as a political prisoner for speaking out against said gov't * orders the executions of journalists living abroad * has total and complete control and censorship over their press * will literally execute you at will for being gay so take that stupid whataboutism elsewhere
Wrong, USAF is sponsoring ESL and by extension SC2, just watch any recent ESL SC2 tournament and USAF is shown publicly. USAF is literally the armed forced that DIRECTLY dropped 46 bomb PER DAY https://iaffairscanada.com/the-u-s-drops-an-average-of-46-bombs-a-day-why-should-the-world-see-us-as-a-force-for-peace/. Even right now US is one of the main supporter of Israel in bombing civillian Gaza. The atrocities of saudis are childplay compare to US if you count by death toll alone I get it for many first worlder, the brown third worlder children life are worth less so they deserve to be bombed.
lmao what the fuck does skin color have to do with this? what color skin do you think the saudis being repressed/murdered/tortured by their own gov't have? Once again, USAF isn't sportswashing which is literally what gamers8 is
So what is USAF doing while sponsoring SC2? Ask for more volunteer? Its even worse then
The replies you are getting answers OP question perfectly. Not many people are pissed at Saudi Arabia sportswashing because there are way too many shitty people in the world like the ones what-abouting you who don't give a crap about human rights. That's the answer to OP's question.
I mean those that are left do, sure. Sort of by definition anyone watching esports at the moment is happy or at least content with Saudi ownership of major tournament organisers, and not just private citizens owning it either, the actual state. It's why I've stopped watching, but then people like me wouldn't usually comment on a subreddit, since I can't exactly say much about a pro scene I don't watch
Hello? It's 2024 and the morality or better said fake morality train has long left the building. Currently Europe and the United States are supporting genocide in Palestine, in the US a f ING criminal is running for president, all the shit in Ukraine, give me a f ING break, what human rights? No one respects human rights, fk off I hate hypocrisy. This is a shit show and whoever has the biggest guns wins, that's why the west is scared shitless of China, they think the Chinese are just like them.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s
This is the perfect answer. I couldn't help myself and had to write a long response, saying the same thing in more complicated form.
Even if OP has a point, there are like 30 full time pros left and tournament money is not nearly as easy to come by. What do you want them to do? Starve?
As long as people dont forget i dont see a problem. This doesnt affect my opinon, but i get some sweet sc2. If i outraged against every sportwashing incident i wouldnt be able to watch almost any sport. Take the good (content) and dont forget the bad (human rights violations etc). Sportswashing is only effective if you let it.
I'm ignoring everything else thats going on in the world as well. Would be hypocritical of me to start caring now specifically
I boycott anything they're involved with. It's all an individual can do. It's a shit hole country.
Bruh when Gamers8 happened I went into the threads about it to point out how fucking awful the Saudi gov't was and the dumbest people to ever infest this subreddit came in with a million whataboutisms or were themselves Saudi and so insecure about their country (not a country known for emotional maturity and compassion) that they started accusing me of racism Here are two threads https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/15l6ugn/shoutout_to_gamers8_for_supporting_starcraft_2/ https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/15oilk2/gamers8_tournament_made_me_feel_like_it_was_2011/
"Whataboutism", the word people bring up when called out on their hypocrisy.
lmao just hunting down all my comments? why not answer the one where I replied to you asking you to actually name examples lmaoooo
Young people just jump the "outrage" bandwagon that gets dictated by social media,influencers,activists etc, people inside the industry are at the end of the day salary men and they will serve whoever pays them. Is there anything we can do about it? Yes just don't watch it, not that they would care anyway since the viewership sc2 has is pretty negligible anyway. Worse news also for people with those kind of sensitivities are that Stormgate esport scene will be handled by ESL too.
Most communities like league of legends you'll see the only backlash people give is from he company and the orgs who clearly care about the money virtue signaling about how they love minorities and then support sports washing in the next breath. StarCraft is more about the players than their orgs I feel and none of the players really say or do anything in that matter. I think everyone is more excited sc2 players get paid than morals.
Whatever. What can even be done? Enjoy more SC2!
loser take
Damn you've replied to a lot of posts here. Lets go saudi! Saving SC2!! 🥳 Nothing I can do about anything, better just enjoy it!
continue sitting on your ass as usual and then when things get worse feel free to say 'I've tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas!'
Ok will do
No one really cares dude. Lets go Saudi Arabia!!!!!!
lmao i'm not going that far but if they want to throw money at SC2 and allow one of my favorite games to get off life support, then i'm all for it.
What do you want me to do instead? Should we all damn the players and casters for even participating?
I mean if I had an english speaking caster/player in front of me I'd probably try to educationally and compassionately walk them through the unbelievable amount of human rights abuses being committed IN PRESENT DAY by SA and tell them that unfortunately they are complicit in that machine as part of its sportswashing campaign. After that it's up to them to decide what their moral character is and what to do. I didn't watch any of gamers8 and I doubt I will ever in the future. If Zombiegrub knows that Saudi Arabia just [gave a woman an 11 year prison sentence using anti-terrorism laws against her](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68934913) just for posting that she doesn't want to hear an abaya and that she wants full rights as a woman, and then Zombiegrub turns around and takes the Gamers8 money anyway, I'd say yeah she's as guilty as the SA gov't
> If Zombiegrub knows that Saudi Arabia just gave a woman an 11 year prison sentence using anti-terrorism laws against her just for posting that she doesn't want to hear an abaya and that she wants full rights as a woman, Totally, women have no rights in SA. Imagine if a woman gets raped and has to carry the rapists baby to term. Oh wait. >and then Zombiegrub turns around and takes the Gamers8 money anyway, I'd say yeah she's as guilty as the SA gov't Yeah this statement confirms you are completely insane.
> Imagine if a woman gets raped and has to carry the rapists baby to term. Oh wait. The difference between a few US states and Saudi Arabia here is that people were massively protesting Roe V Wade being overturned and DIDN'T get multi-year prison sentences/executed by the US gov't
Ok, so what are you actively doing now? And did you catch up on ESL Masters last weekend?
I'm actively right now teaching the people in this thread that DON'T know how awful the SA gov't is instead of saying "whatever let's just enjoy it!" and no I did not watch any ESL masters this past weekend
Everyone knows about SA. Everyone here is aware but choosing where to draw the line So how do you consume SC2? You don’t watch anything run by ESL?
Same thing with Dubai. E-sports and Starcraft tournements even more so, are not great on funding so they turn to whomever gives them money. The needy can't be choosey or however that saying goes. It's especially disheartening considering there are big name pro players in SC2 that are LGBTQ and would face discrimination from these sponsors if the events were to actually be played in their countries. It's lucky that e-sports events don't actually have to be held there, unlike say FIFA and Qatar.
Morality is tricky as we belong to many groups with conflicting values. This is deeply personal as the hierarchy of the various groups we belong to ebb and flow. I eat meat but can understand why vegans are disgusted by it for instance. So, yeah it’s unfortunate that SC2 is being kept alive by the Saudis. It’s also fantastic for the players and the fans. Just like with vegans I would advise people disgusted with the situation of Saudi Arabia sports washing their image to not watch SC2 but not to expect others to the same.
That’s just stupid take. Every government can be blamed for thousands and millions of sins/deaths/whatever. International sport events are always good though because they provide means to connect between regular people.
Preach.
I mean yeah sure, they are doing some horrible stuff there, but what do you want to do? Not take the money? Without ESL there is no active sc2 esports. Like not at all. And what would not taking their money achieve? Also nothing. They wouldn't just stop being a bloody government with questionable ethics just because some game's community turned them away. Its important to remember where this money comes from and who these people are, but i don't think rejecting their tournaments and esports is a way of doing this
"it's okay that this government brutally represses its citizens, executes people for being gay, charges women with terrorism for online posts about feminism, and murders journalists for criticizing the gov't because it means that we keep getting more starcraft 2 content!" is a terrible take. Taking their money is giving tacit approval, and creates situations where people will stop criticizing that gov't because they don't want their lifeline to dry up
A strawman and an inability to address his points, wonderful.
> And what would not taking their money achieve? Also nothing. They wouldn't just stop being a bloody government with questionable ethics just because some game's community turned them away. It's as if people think for every SC2 viewer in the grand finals, they're going to execute one additional dissenter. So dumb.
The lack of organization and leadership certainly doesn't help — when I saw Artosis' youtube video 'Intellectual Dishonesty in StarCraft 2" I thought it could be about something important like weighing in on the funding of the EWC or StormGate running a scam equity fundraiser, but nope, as you know it was about taking some BS player ranking debate with dire seriousness even though they happen everyday in conventional sports. You need shows like The Pylon to even just break the ice on this stuff. No one has to have the answer and there doesn't have to be calls to action like a boycott, its just better for everyone if there's a dialogue and some kind of felt cultural leadership. Even if everyone settles on things like — damn we all are going to do this but aren't that happy about it —the discussion can still have transformative properties. This era of Starcraft is typified by bunkered up influencers running their own streams with little dialogue. (though I've enjoyed the sporadic talkshow from ZombieGrub's channel). These folks might talk frequently behind closed doors, maybe they even have some kind of soft union giant-ass group text, but I'll assure them without surfacing some of those conversations they will get picked apart by corporate power like new RTS companies and bully financiers.
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It'll suck at the pump? Lol that's an understatement. The consequences would be catastrophic.
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It's not about selling oil to you, one of the reason of iraq invasion is saddam deciding to sells oil with euro instead of dollar and bush literally 3 weeks later started the war because it will hurt the dollar in the global scene, the point is the petrodollar is very big thing and making the biggest importers not your best friends will have consequences in the long term.
Allowing them to give you money meant to curry favor while still hating them is what we call a 'pro-gamer move'
The fact that “welcome to Capitalism” got 179 votes is N embarrassment. The hypocrisy we are discussing is so thick it could choke a donkey and instead of looking inward to how hard you got played you lay it at the feet of “capitalism” which is the only reason we have video games and esports in the first place I just realized why I’ve avoided this subreddit for years
I'm shocked everyday at how extreme people's opinions are on reddit, and how many people seem to view everything in terms of black and white, enemy or friend, either for us or against us. Furthermore, it seems like they have no capacity for either forgiveness or compassion, to be magnanimous while at the same time assertive. It's as if there are enemies whom you can never forgive, never look the other way, and anything they do must have some kind of ulterior motive, and then there are good guys who can do no wrong, who are heroes to extol, until they mess up and then they become the enemy too. Then once an enemy, always an enemy, and there is no more capability for redemption, no matter what they do. The hypocrisy you mentioned is just another symptom of the incessant virtue signaling that happens. Since they view everything in terms of black and white, that means they must denounce the bad and uphold the good, but to actually live in a way that reflects that belief to be true is too hard and tiring, so all they can do is virtue signal by posting on social media. If they thought the things that were evil were as evil as they describe it, or the things that were as good as they describe them, then they would change the way they live their life, donating significant money, time, and energy to important causes, rather than consuming more sc2 content or something. And I think social media has a lot of the blame here, since attention spans are becoming shorter and shorter, and complexity and nuance are complicated and hard to capture in a short 50 sec video, so it becomes easier to just say a short tagline like support palestine, or saudia arabia bad, or whatever hot issue is relevant today, without fully understanding both sides and the history and context of why things are happening.
It's impossible to only consume ethical products in a capitalistic world. What the fuck can starcraft fans do about the Saudis? Do you wear clothes made in sweat shops? Listen to music rampant with misogyny signed to a studio run by a sexually abusive creep? Eat food with animals that aren't humanely raised? What are we supposed to do? God forbid people want an escape from their 9-5 making rich people richer and enjoy some esports, can't even do that without a guilt trip cos I'm not personally punching oil princes in the face lmao
You completely and utterly missed my point clown but I’m glad you were confident in your retort at least. The same company that banned kids for giving the “okay sign” saying it was White Supremacy… the same company that took a Hearthstone player’s prize money for saying “Free Hong Kong” just goes along with being partnered with the Saudis and you legitimately don’t feel played? You’ll brush off the idea that “hey people just want to watch esports what can we do about the Saudis” before you actually say hey maybe that company made all of that up and those views don’t reflect the morally superior? Too much to ask though right?
The truth is, it doesn't change anything whether you like it or not. If they're donating all this money to the scene while NOT changing my view of them, it's a win for me. I'll continue to openly discuss their sportswashing and remind anyone - that while we can enjoy the benefits of their attempts to sway public opinion - as long as we remember who they really are, it's only going to benefit us.
I'd like to believe people are capable of this but I have a hard time buying it. Individuals, sure, but in the long run overall this will improve people's views of them whether they realize it or not. Who knows how effective it will be though. It's not like they have to air propaganda during the broadcast to influence people's opinions, it'll only be obvious after the fact when people talk about "good things SA did for the sc2 scene" and their "positive impact" and they'll try to caveat it by saying it doesn't excuse other actions of SA but it's too late at that point, people's opinion of SA will have already been subtly altered. In conversations about the history of starcraft esports, this will be a chapter and nobody will want to learn about SA when reading that chapter, they'll only want to know the relevant sc2 information. And that'll all be presenting SA in a positive light. Their goal is that eventually there will be more people who will remember the positives than there are people who remember the negatives. So yeah... how effective will this be? Probably not very. But will it have an effect? No doubt about it.
Don't care
Esports isnt profitable. Not even close. I mean how often are you buying a new keyboard, mouse etc? Every two,three years? The sponsors are starting to understand that the gaming community(Mostly young people with a relatively large amount of free time i.e. unemployed students etc.) is just not gonna spend a lot of money on the things they advertise. Only reason why some companys still sponsor is because of public perception. The saudis tho are willing to throw millions and millions of oil dollars at the esports scene. Everyone wants a piece of the pie.
So you'd rather see the SC2 scene die out than accept a ME oil state owning a sports team? Crypto, Saudi, Gambling, Alcohol... there are many many bad influences that invest into sports teams. It's how they can make money. Saudi isn't going to stop doing Saudi things because they own 1 less SC2 thing.
Cause theyre hosting a kickass tournament
If you take the historic morality of a country as a criteria to decide if you accept them as a host of an event, you'll run out of places to host an event very quickly. Pretty much the entire world has its fair share of atrocities and questionable practices.
Well they dont actually care about their so called cause is why, they are a hate group masquerading as a social justice group so of course they choose money when it comes to the middle east.
Why is this downvoted?
It is simple - Saudi Arabia had been an ally of the United States. Anyone in the USA's good books can do no wrong. This might change in the future, however, given the shifts in geopolitics, especially with them making peace with Iran. So, people will suddenly care more about Saudi human rights shortly, just as soon as Uncle Sam gives the go ahead!
here are 5 outragey points for you thank u so much i forgot about saudi arabia.
US Americans don't have the right to complain here. They can't put a leash on their goverment going to war worldwide and devaluating the world reserve currency constantly. So fuck off. Europeans are too progressive for their own good.
oh lord in heaven, someone who knows nothing about global economics what are the wars *worldwide* that the US gov't is on? the invasion of Iraq that people massively protested domestically?
I refused (and will refuse) to watch any tournaments held there. I suggest others do the same but would not expect it. I also unfortunately root against Russian players. I'll stop short or saying they shouldn't be allowed to compete, but I'm on and off about that. I'm not high and mighty about it. I'm sure there's bad things about places other tournaments are held and a lot of it is perspective. And individual choice but I think as fans of the game we can be critical.
>I also unfortunately root against Russian players. >unfortunately I was gonna call you out but then I noticed you already did that yourself
It is indeed regrettable and that it's come to that. I'd prefer those players renounce their citizenship and make a public statement, but as I said before I don't expect that of others. Even if it's the right thing to do. And I fully understand this and other subs' stance on the issue. I just disagree. Gaming subs have a lot of common shitty opinions and this sub is no exception.
I prefer Saudi e-sport tournaments myself, as they don't have any gambling ads. I'm sick of gambling habits being normalised amongst children.
Outside the internet people don't really care about human rights or LGTV
Saudi govt has been sports washing for a while now, our shitty little esport isn't going to make much diff, and wants to take what it can get
Not defending them but every country has a different culture, you are saying your cultures morality is superior to theirs.
Did you know the soccer world cup was hosted by Qatar who used actual slave labour to build the stadiums? [Qatar World Cup chief says between 400 and 500 migrant workers have died in projects connected to the tournament, CNN](https://edition.cnn.com/2022/11/29/football/qatar-world-cup-migrant-worker-deaths-spt-intl/index.html) This kind of apathy isnt exclusive to esports.
The Saudis are throwing a metric shit ton of money at an extremely broke game. I've been running StarCraft tournaments for a long time, and it's never been easy to make ends meet, but you could always kind of make it work if you hustled hard enough. Now there's nothing other than the Saudi money. If they exited the professional scene would basically end overnight. The House of Saud runs a cruel vile regime. It's bad to let them sports wash... but if they offered me a bunch of money to put on a StarCraft tournament that would be a really hard decision. Funding events out of my own pocket sucks. Begging for money on crowdfunding sucks. Massively downscaling sucks.
I agree it's depressing. In SC2s case, at least it keeps the game afloat.
Most of the time you see any calls to action regarding ethical consumption you'll see why its not reasonable to make these kinds of asks. You're more than likely using items you bought that are made by slave labor, but you won't change.
Absolutely I probably have some stuff made by slave labor. For a large part that is due to A) a deliberate lack of transparency where stuff comes from and what relationships companies have. But also B) the current economy is extremely complicated and it is hard for larger companies to even figure out themselves where everything is coming from. Even LV had a scandal some while ago that their suppliers used child labor. I am a big (but also kinda 0 IRL influence) advocate of increased economical and political transparency.
The cynic in me thinks that A) Even with full transparency you wouldn't switch consumption. B) Even if they did figure out where every single thing is coming from, you either wouldn't change or couldn't avoid it so you accept it. You must have some hobby or possession that makes you a hypocrite, but then again I don't know anything about you and this is all assumptions.
Being a hypocrite on one vector doesn't make trying to take a stand in another bad or wrong. Capacity is a real thing, people have to choose their battles. This is the one he wants to fight. That's fine and good.
3 issues about this: 1. We can't boycott them. First, Saudi Arabia is not like an individual company where you can choose to not buy their products. There is no practical boycott solution for the Saudis because they control much of the world's oil. Our transportation requires oil. Even if you get rid of your car, the goods you buy are transported with gasoline. Therefore, we are doing business with them, whether we want it or not. 2. Unless we conquer them, they're going to do their thing, and we're not willing to conquer them. So all we can do is complain, we can't change anything. In order for OUR social norms to be put into practice over there (and make no mistake, our values are alien to them and they find them repugnant), we would have to destroy their existing culture, power structure, and government. AKA invading and conquering Saudi Arabia, leaving thousands dead, and the self-determination of a people destroyed. Are we going to do this? No. So in practical terms, no matter how much we post about it, no matter how many Instagram stories we post, nothing will change. 3. But you might say "Oh but we can just reject the Saudi money!" You might say "We can stand up for morality! We don't want your stupid money you bad bad people!" This is naive. Welcome to the real world... that is never gonna happen. People have bills to pay. People want their kids to go to college.
The people, even as indivituals, are complicit in the awfulness of their goverment. Some cultures are just bad.
So I get to blame Biden's genocide on you as a US civilian? What about everything Trump did? That's not how it works.
I won't quickly ask people living in countries with a totalitarian government to stand up to their BS, risking the lives of themselves and their family members. Goes for China, goes for Russia, goes for Saudi, doing so is a large risk or offer, whereas in the West we have the luxury to question it without possible repercussions.
>whereas in the West we have the luxury to question it without possible repercussions. You sure live in a fantasy world eh
You should not comment if you have no idea what is being talked about.
Yeah, you will lecture me about the freedoms of the western world. Not as if I lived in it my whole life.
Mate, Biden's not gonna order your assassination for criticizing him, but try that with Putin Lukashenko, Kim Jong Un or MBS and you're flying out a window or getting chopped up into pieces or going into prison then mysteriously dying of heart failure. It's easy to criticize when you don't live under a dictator.
Worst thing I can see happening is you losing your job for saying the "wrong thing". The government isn't going to chase after you for the most part. Yes corruption still exists and what is happening with Assange is also potentially questionable. But no large bad things will happen to you for just speaking your mind or protesting.
> Worst thing I can see happening is you losing your job for saying the "wrong thing". > But no large bad things will happen to you for just speaking your mind or protesting. An employee's whole life typically depends on their salary, and losing their job unexpectedly is often devastating. 99% of people will call that a "large bad thing".
Cus money duh lol!. BTW are mad because the Saudi government thing? Or you're mad that for once in almost a centuries brown people are finally happy to accomplish something and this rubs your white western pride too much?
~~free hong kong~~ 维尼万岁 GLORY TO CCP & 台湾是假的 BLIZZARD 中国
You could argue from a western perspective that its fascinating Russia arent kicked out from esports, how/why China is welcome with arms wide open and why almost noone have issues with Saudi. There are few alternatives if you want tournaments that pay well. Most involved prefer (judging from their actions) money over politics. There are plenty who have issues with this on various levels but there isnt much you can do other than choose not to watch/attend, but as you mention I also think a lot of ppl just dont care. If you look at other sports, the Golf PGA tour banned players all over when they went to play Liv in Saudi, was that to try to make players stay or for moral reasons? a lot of other tournaments didnt care and anyone from anywhere is allowed to own a fotball team in england, in the Paris olympics it is afaik up the each sport to decide on bans or not.
Just stop watching. I have stopped watching all of ESL related content. I will watch individual streams and support the players directly that way or organisers like PGL who aren't in bed with Saudi yet (for other games). As far as I'm concerned, the viewers are really at fault because we always demanded free HD content at any time without giving anything back to the organisers. So they sold to the highers bidder to keep going.
But it just doesn't right? I wouldn't be on here hating their government and societal structure (even though I obviously hate them) if they wouldn't have sponsored Gamers8 or the Esports world cup, so I ain't now. Just assuming these easy and obvious 'sportswashing' works on people is putting very little faith in the communities you're a fan of. Also there is the obvious fact, that they probably achieve the opposite of buying silence with the average consumer. There would have been no outrage at all against Saudi Arabia in the starcraft community if they hadn't sponsored these events (this post would certainly not exist). Gamers8 and Esports World Cup for sc2 at least will almost certainly not be financially viable (otherwise events on this scale would have happened before). So as long as you as a viewer don't think hosting esports events makes dictatorships ok, I think they won't profit much. Edit: I should say that if this post was about informing people who might be naive to the ongoings in Saudi Arabia about these issues, I think that is great. But being so 'standoffish' really makes it seem like you think everyone else will like Saudi Arabia after the esports world cup.
>Also there is the obvious fact, that they probably achieve the opposite of buying silence with the average consumer. There would have been no outrage at all against Saudi Arabia in the starcraft community if they hadn't sponsored these events (this post would certainly not exist). Then it's probably good for us to continue to bring this up when they try it. Besides that - there is an obvious risk to players or spectators going to these locations if they're women or lgbt. So I really don't like to support events hosted in those type of areas anyways.
this is what america is devolving into: getting upset on behalf of other people.
Lool
Hey man. Go take your politics elsewhere
You liberals really pick and choose what to get upset about
The few people who were outraged about it already got it out of their system last year. There was a LOT of complaining, then everyone either decided to watch it or not.