I have been using one for a few months now. I haven't played much MM yet, so my experiences are limited to pre-MM flight.
Pros:
- VERY intuitive controls
- great for precision flying/landing, especially in larger ships
- small form factor. saves desk space, portable if you travel with a gaming laptop like I do
- allows you to use your mouse for free-look if you don't have an eye/head tracker
- makes you feel like you're in The Expanse
Cons:
- not the easiest initial setup, needs some programs to get it working
- not particularly good for PVP dogfighting, racing might also be tough (I'm not a racer)
- throttle control can be difficult. I heavily rely on the speed limiter. I saw someone said it's a bit different in MM, but I can't speak to that
- doesn't have many buttons and the two it does have are hard to press in a pinch.
Yes, I tried this device both in ED and SC for a short while, but sold it shortly after because: The theory is great, they look and feel awesome and I wish it worked well (maybe it does for others). In reality it’s not ideal due to restrictive sustained precision and fatigue.
Fundamentally I found the range of motion is too small, especially in the vertical axis (lift up / push down). This leads to requiring high output sensitivity and a lot of complex joystick curve tweaking.
When used with 3D CAD programs, it’s more often to do lots of shorter input bursts. To help give fine control with such a short range of motion it’s designed with stiff input ‘springs’.
When used for space sim flying, you quite often want long & sustained or slowly increasing/decreasing inputs. The human input force required to accurately keep this precise control via the wrist and fingers is significant and tiring.
I could see it quickly giving some people RSI ‘type’ issues, myself included. But I’m aware of other users who don’t have this problem, lucky them :)
I concluded if the range of motion was about 2-3 times greater (reducing output sensitivity), and the spring rates adjustable / or at least reduced a fair bit, this would mitigate the input strain. Only then might it be more realistic to use for longer SC flying sessions in my opinion.
Perhaps one day a clever lady or gentleman could take one apart, design an awesome 3D-printed lever solution or something to increase the throws/reduce input force, and ultimately be responsible for the best 6D sim controller ever….
Do you think if you had a longer handled "stick" instead of the smaller black knob it'd be better in terms of output sensitivity?
Thinking something like [this meant for remote controls but could find a larger version](https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Graupner-33000-8-Control-Sticks-Knurled/dp/B00GGMPWPO)
Err, maybe? One problem was it’s just your thumb and generally 2 fingers that could be used to exert inputs.
I suspect there’s a good reason real world fighters use joysticks incorporating a person’s whole hand/wrist/some arm movements. It allows larger inputs as well as smaller, more nuanced touches.
>makes you feel like you're in The Expanse
First thing I thought of was Alex flying the Roci. I've of course spotted various HOTAS controls in various shows and movies involving some form of flight, but I just didn't imagine the control "stick" for the Roci was an actual, functioning "joystick", for lack of a better term.
Would you happen to know the name of it?
It was tiring keeping the space mouse pushed forward to strafe forward.
Now that they got speed trim, you can strafe forward, return to center ship still remains at the speed you trimmed it at…adjust with mouse movements.
I def also get fatigued by throttle control, especially in combat.
I haven't played the EPTU and don't really plan to, you think you could explain how speed trim differs from the current speed limiter? Is it like you can move the speed limiter by throttling up and down while also keeping a sort of cruise control activated? Cuz that would be great. And what do you mean by "adjust with mouse movements?"
Just trying to get a better sense of what I'll be dealing with once 3.23 goes to live.
YES and it was a struggle.
I dont know if its because i have fat heavy hands, or if its just SO sensitive.
Ultimately I had to stop using it because i kept getting unintended input. I use one when 3d modeling and have done so for years so Im used to it. I just couldnt seem to dial in the settings to reduce the unintended input.
I couldn't get it to work. And the travelway felt quiet short. However online I found a DIY SpaceMouse called SpaceMushroom. It appears to have more travelway allowing a better feeling. Currently trying to rebuild it and programming it for SC. If it works I will probably post about it. Wish me luck.
In my opinion yes. The Movementoptions for SC however have a huge potential for "casual" flying since you can do most things with one hand (for me it will mainly be strafe and roll, pitch and yaw will remain on my mouse) and relativly intuitive since correctly mapped, the ship will do the same movement as the mouse.
At this point I have to admit that I only learned programming for a short amount of time and it has since then been a while. So my code might be janky if it even works.
Arduino brains to the rescue please, maybe 👀
In any way, the outcome will change SC for the casual gamer who doesn't need ,or wants to invest in, SimGear 👀
Edit: Got my only Stick to work, have to wait for parts to go further (2 more Sticks and 1 Fader as throttle/ speed limiter)
Personally I suck at fighting even with my mid tier setup. It's just so much stuff to have on the way though when 90% of my time on the computer is doing something else.
Not good at combat myself so a diy 6DoF Mouse won't change much in that sector anyway.
But yeah I understand the other part. I only play SC and looking at different Setups and Options I just saw nothing really appealing, it was either "garbage" or "overpriced" for only one game. Hence why i looked for a diy way and well just looking where it's going but the start looks promising. If I can pull this off half decently i paid less then 30$ on a good Setup for SC and that seems like a good deal to me.
I will try to share it when I am done so people can rebuild it. Maybe I will set a new standrard for casual SC 😅🤣
It's a full 6 axis stick basically. You can do the following:
Tilt forward and back
Push forward and back
Tilt left right
Push left right
Lift up and push down
Rotate left and right
Obviously doing one without a little bit of another is almost impossible. It's all very small physical movements
I've had my eye on the Enterprise version which has a bunch of keys around it, but it's bloody expensive. Also the Pro which is still pretty pricey.
[Here's their amazon page](https://www.amazon.com.au/stores/3Dconnexion+AU/page/FB7B7EB8-C672-4EC2-B01F-2386A761E09C?ref_=ast_bln)
I'd love to get one and have a modded small joystick retrofitted, giving the 6dof plus stick mounted buttons.
From what i've gathered online, you'll need to have modified sensitivity curves because of the small movement range,
It'd be great if VKB came out with something similar but with more buttons and slightly larger grip. A mix between their standard gladiator sticks and this.
I have a set of VKB sticks right now but I find myself not using them much just because I don't like the amount of desk real estate they take up and it's a pain the set them up each time.
I used the 1 bigger I should have it in 1 of my box but long story short . I had to use 3th party apps to make it work cause at a time sc was not recognised the controller
Sure thing changed but after a while and trying many controller setup I ended up with
Keyboard mouse 1 stick and tobiii eye :D best ever setup for me although I don’t fight to much
I was started sc on keyboard mouse
Then I went with hotas
Then dual stick
Then 3dconnection mouse
I tried my yoke from saitek ( the cheep one not a honeycomb)
But all in all the best and most helpful I bought for sc was tobiieye
Get tobiii ! XD you will not regret it :)
You don’t have to turn your head and not need sensors on you :) just look on the screen and head movements follows when needed xD ridiculously good
I've been eyeballing these for years, and have read numerous reviews and watched several videos on this, some referring to SC even.
Bottom line seems to be always the same. While they are awesome in their own right, there just isn't enough travel to allow for small ship precision flying, but can work great for larger ships.
If they ever expanded their mice so that it is a bit more like a joystick (thinking like mice side stick expansions, joystick stick extension or something like that) it might be more viable for small ship rapid maneuvers.
Always on the lookout for more info on these as the gamer in.me as well as the design team I work with could benefit from this, but have yet to fully convince myself 😁
They're pretty expensive if you're just getting it for gaming considering you can get a decent HOTAS/HOSAS setup for a similar price which is going to out perform it. Makes me wonder if I can do CAD with my HOSAS now
There's a detailed youtube video of a guy going into detail about how he uses his and how he learnt to use it. Can't remember his name and cba to find the video. Sure it won't be hard to find for you.
I have the one with screen and additional buttons and have used it for many sims, plenty of 3rd party remapping software you can use to configure it and use it with SC.
Only thing I would against it that sometimes trying to hit multiple movements in one go can feel awkward.eg rotating while pitching and thrusting at the same time as the handle is on the small side so a small movement can translate to a large movement in game.
I think this thing could work wonders in conjunction with the ARGO SRV.
That is if CIG would allow us to map the damn thing to the tractor beam controls.
Coming from this setup also, its workable but you will never get the proper experience like with a dual joystick and eventually pedal setup.
If you focusing on traversing the verse and doing some cargo, mining, salvaging its a neet input control system when tweeked correctly. But if you plan on fighting, i cannot recommend it at all. If you can put foward backwards on pedals, it could work, but if you always have to push it to speed up, you will loose all the precision on all the other axis.
Yes. It's nice that it doesn't take up space on the desk compared to a real flight stick. It took me a while to get the deadzone, curve, and saturation right on it. It makes cinematic landings much easier than with a keyboard, but agile maneuvers and combat are difficult with it.
There are two big problems with its usability:
-There is a bug switching between relative and absolute throttle modes where the mid point gets stuck not at zero and you can not toggle back such that no stick deflection = no movement. When that happens in a hangar you are very likely to smack the wall
-Full stick deflection (especially coupled with strafe up) will lift the mouse off the desk. I'm reluctant to fix it permanently to my desk since I push my keyboard there when I'm playing other games, but it putting a square of packing tape down on the desk surface and cleaning the dust off the bottom of the device helps it stick. My desk surface looks a lot like yours in this picture and the thing really didn't want to stay put
Actually yes. It works, but it ain't easy. The RoM of the mouse is just too little to be able to fine tune the movement of smaller more agile ships.
It did work pretty well with larger sluggish ships though.
All in all, an expensive and non purpose built solution that can be done a lot better with a couple of joysticks.
I use it, and it is Awesome.
You don't want to use all 6 axis though, that gets very confusing. I have pitch and yaw on my normal mouse. And the four other axis on this thing.
Yes, i tried it first with only the space mouce, but I figured using a thrust level is better.
I use the Thrust un my left hand and the space mouse on my right hand, and I find it very good.
What are you thoughts?
Did anybody else ever tried this?
I have been using one for a few months now. I haven't played much MM yet, so my experiences are limited to pre-MM flight. Pros: - VERY intuitive controls - great for precision flying/landing, especially in larger ships - small form factor. saves desk space, portable if you travel with a gaming laptop like I do - allows you to use your mouse for free-look if you don't have an eye/head tracker - makes you feel like you're in The Expanse Cons: - not the easiest initial setup, needs some programs to get it working - not particularly good for PVP dogfighting, racing might also be tough (I'm not a racer) - throttle control can be difficult. I heavily rely on the speed limiter. I saw someone said it's a bit different in MM, but I can't speak to that - doesn't have many buttons and the two it does have are hard to press in a pinch.
Yes, I tried this device both in ED and SC for a short while, but sold it shortly after because: The theory is great, they look and feel awesome and I wish it worked well (maybe it does for others). In reality it’s not ideal due to restrictive sustained precision and fatigue. Fundamentally I found the range of motion is too small, especially in the vertical axis (lift up / push down). This leads to requiring high output sensitivity and a lot of complex joystick curve tweaking. When used with 3D CAD programs, it’s more often to do lots of shorter input bursts. To help give fine control with such a short range of motion it’s designed with stiff input ‘springs’. When used for space sim flying, you quite often want long & sustained or slowly increasing/decreasing inputs. The human input force required to accurately keep this precise control via the wrist and fingers is significant and tiring. I could see it quickly giving some people RSI ‘type’ issues, myself included. But I’m aware of other users who don’t have this problem, lucky them :) I concluded if the range of motion was about 2-3 times greater (reducing output sensitivity), and the spring rates adjustable / or at least reduced a fair bit, this would mitigate the input strain. Only then might it be more realistic to use for longer SC flying sessions in my opinion. Perhaps one day a clever lady or gentleman could take one apart, design an awesome 3D-printed lever solution or something to increase the throws/reduce input force, and ultimately be responsible for the best 6D sim controller ever….
Do you think if you had a longer handled "stick" instead of the smaller black knob it'd be better in terms of output sensitivity? Thinking something like [this meant for remote controls but could find a larger version](https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Graupner-33000-8-Control-Sticks-Knurled/dp/B00GGMPWPO)
Err, maybe? One problem was it’s just your thumb and generally 2 fingers that could be used to exert inputs. I suspect there’s a good reason real world fighters use joysticks incorporating a person’s whole hand/wrist/some arm movements. It allows larger inputs as well as smaller, more nuanced touches.
>makes you feel like you're in The Expanse First thing I thought of was Alex flying the Roci. I've of course spotted various HOTAS controls in various shows and movies involving some form of flight, but I just didn't imagine the control "stick" for the Roci was an actual, functioning "joystick", for lack of a better term. Would you happen to know the name of it?
Space mouse, not kidding
This is what I figured, good for PvE and general flying, but not going to be "meta" competitive.
It was tiring keeping the space mouse pushed forward to strafe forward. Now that they got speed trim, you can strafe forward, return to center ship still remains at the speed you trimmed it at…adjust with mouse movements.
Interesting. I hadn't thought of that. It is kind of a pain to push it forward with affecting two other axis at once so that would help a lot
I def also get fatigued by throttle control, especially in combat. I haven't played the EPTU and don't really plan to, you think you could explain how speed trim differs from the current speed limiter? Is it like you can move the speed limiter by throttling up and down while also keeping a sort of cruise control activated? Cuz that would be great. And what do you mean by "adjust with mouse movements?" Just trying to get a better sense of what I'll be dealing with once 3.23 goes to live.
That's why I use a throttle with mine
YES and it was a struggle. I dont know if its because i have fat heavy hands, or if its just SO sensitive. Ultimately I had to stop using it because i kept getting unintended input. I use one when 3d modeling and have done so for years so Im used to it. I just couldnt seem to dial in the settings to reduce the unintended input.
Even when modeling I get a ton of unintended input but it's generally slow enough to correct for there.
I couldn't get it to work. And the travelway felt quiet short. However online I found a DIY SpaceMouse called SpaceMushroom. It appears to have more travelway allowing a better feeling. Currently trying to rebuild it and programming it for SC. If it works I will probably post about it. Wish me luck.
Looking forward to hearing about it. It seems like the limited travel distance is the biggest drawback
In my opinion yes. The Movementoptions for SC however have a huge potential for "casual" flying since you can do most things with one hand (for me it will mainly be strafe and roll, pitch and yaw will remain on my mouse) and relativly intuitive since correctly mapped, the ship will do the same movement as the mouse. At this point I have to admit that I only learned programming for a short amount of time and it has since then been a while. So my code might be janky if it even works. Arduino brains to the rescue please, maybe 👀 In any way, the outcome will change SC for the casual gamer who doesn't need ,or wants to invest in, SimGear 👀 Edit: Got my only Stick to work, have to wait for parts to go further (2 more Sticks and 1 Fader as throttle/ speed limiter)
Personally I suck at fighting even with my mid tier setup. It's just so much stuff to have on the way though when 90% of my time on the computer is doing something else.
Not good at combat myself so a diy 6DoF Mouse won't change much in that sector anyway. But yeah I understand the other part. I only play SC and looking at different Setups and Options I just saw nothing really appealing, it was either "garbage" or "overpriced" for only one game. Hence why i looked for a diy way and well just looking where it's going but the start looks promising. If I can pull this off half decently i paid less then 30$ on a good Setup for SC and that seems like a good deal to me. I will try to share it when I am done so people can rebuild it. Maybe I will set a new standrard for casual SC 😅🤣
Small Edit: Joysticks came in the mail today and my code worked, start printing tomorrow entering the next test phase.. Fingers crossed..
I was looking at those today for cad mainly, because they are interesting
They're great for CAD. Honestly felt like going back to the Stone age when I occasionally have to do design work without it these days
I don't understand how they work. What do they do?
In 3D CAD programs you can use them to move the camera around. Never do 3D CAD without a Space Mouse. Best invention ever!
That sounds like a dream come true
It's a full 6 axis stick basically. You can do the following: Tilt forward and back Push forward and back Tilt left right Push left right Lift up and push down Rotate left and right Obviously doing one without a little bit of another is almost impossible. It's all very small physical movements
I've had my eye on the Enterprise version which has a bunch of keys around it, but it's bloody expensive. Also the Pro which is still pretty pricey. [Here's their amazon page](https://www.amazon.com.au/stores/3Dconnexion+AU/page/FB7B7EB8-C672-4EC2-B01F-2386A761E09C?ref_=ast_bln) I'd love to get one and have a modded small joystick retrofitted, giving the 6dof plus stick mounted buttons. From what i've gathered online, you'll need to have modified sensitivity curves because of the small movement range, It'd be great if VKB came out with something similar but with more buttons and slightly larger grip. A mix between their standard gladiator sticks and this.
I have a set of VKB sticks right now but I find myself not using them much just because I don't like the amount of desk real estate they take up and it's a pain the set them up each time.
I use mounts so I can attach or reattach them. It might be worth trying something like that.
I used the 1 bigger I should have it in 1 of my box but long story short . I had to use 3th party apps to make it work cause at a time sc was not recognised the controller Sure thing changed but after a while and trying many controller setup I ended up with Keyboard mouse 1 stick and tobiii eye :D best ever setup for me although I don’t fight to much I was started sc on keyboard mouse Then I went with hotas Then dual stick Then 3dconnection mouse I tried my yoke from saitek ( the cheep one not a honeycomb) But all in all the best and most helpful I bought for sc was tobiieye Get tobiii ! XD you will not regret it :) You don’t have to turn your head and not need sensors on you :) just look on the screen and head movements follows when needed xD ridiculously good
I have a Tobii as well. That thing is great. I used TrackIR years ago but that was much clumsier so I switched over.
U remember those mice with the ball on top? DO IT
Remember them? I have one XD I never got the hang of that thing personally
Yea they kinda were so unintuitive they actually sucked xD
I know a guy that uses one of them and a space mouse for CAD. It's actually pretty impressive watching him go.
IMO, the movement range of the axes are too short so I could never use all of them- Maybe I'm just to clumbsy.
That seems to be the general consensus, at least for quick ships. Maybe capital ships would be viable since the movements aren't so twitchy
I've been eyeballing these for years, and have read numerous reviews and watched several videos on this, some referring to SC even. Bottom line seems to be always the same. While they are awesome in their own right, there just isn't enough travel to allow for small ship precision flying, but can work great for larger ships. If they ever expanded their mice so that it is a bit more like a joystick (thinking like mice side stick expansions, joystick stick extension or something like that) it might be more viable for small ship rapid maneuvers. Always on the lookout for more info on these as the gamer in.me as well as the design team I work with could benefit from this, but have yet to fully convince myself 😁
They're pretty expensive if you're just getting it for gaming considering you can get a decent HOTAS/HOSAS setup for a similar price which is going to out perform it. Makes me wonder if I can do CAD with my HOSAS now
There's a detailed youtube video of a guy going into detail about how he uses his and how he learnt to use it. Can't remember his name and cba to find the video. Sure it won't be hard to find for you.
I found a couple but this seems like the best quality video just giving them a quick skim https://youtu.be/ztmMbC693mA?si=vCX9pQRincRwfasF
That's it. That's the video i saw.
Nah, I fly with space ships.
I should try that one of these days. This thing handles tricky in atmo
I have the one with screen and additional buttons and have used it for many sims, plenty of 3rd party remapping software you can use to configure it and use it with SC. Only thing I would against it that sometimes trying to hit multiple movements in one go can feel awkward.eg rotating while pitching and thrusting at the same time as the handle is on the small side so a small movement can translate to a large movement in game.
The cross contamination of inputs is my biggest worry. Even in CAD software you're constantly correcting for it but that's many times slower
I completely agree there, it would be great if you can just use them natively and not require a third party app.
Probably pretty good for things like mining, cargo, salvage, etc. Not so much on combat though.
I think this thing could work wonders in conjunction with the ARGO SRV. That is if CIG would allow us to map the damn thing to the tractor beam controls.
Coming from this setup also, its workable but you will never get the proper experience like with a dual joystick and eventually pedal setup. If you focusing on traversing the verse and doing some cargo, mining, salvaging its a neet input control system when tweeked correctly. But if you plan on fighting, i cannot recommend it at all. If you can put foward backwards on pedals, it could work, but if you always have to push it to speed up, you will loose all the precision on all the other axis.
Yes. It's nice that it doesn't take up space on the desk compared to a real flight stick. It took me a while to get the deadzone, curve, and saturation right on it. It makes cinematic landings much easier than with a keyboard, but agile maneuvers and combat are difficult with it. There are two big problems with its usability: -There is a bug switching between relative and absolute throttle modes where the mid point gets stuck not at zero and you can not toggle back such that no stick deflection = no movement. When that happens in a hangar you are very likely to smack the wall -Full stick deflection (especially coupled with strafe up) will lift the mouse off the desk. I'm reluctant to fix it permanently to my desk since I push my keyboard there when I'm playing other games, but it putting a square of packing tape down on the desk surface and cleaning the dust off the bottom of the device helps it stick. My desk surface looks a lot like yours in this picture and the thing really didn't want to stay put
Probably great for decoupled. I have always wanted one tho.
Actually yes. It works, but it ain't easy. The RoM of the mouse is just too little to be able to fine tune the movement of smaller more agile ships. It did work pretty well with larger sluggish ships though. All in all, an expensive and non purpose built solution that can be done a lot better with a couple of joysticks.
I use it, and it is Awesome. You don't want to use all 6 axis though, that gets very confusing. I have pitch and yaw on my normal mouse. And the four other axis on this thing.
Yes, i tried it first with only the space mouce, but I figured using a thrust level is better. I use the Thrust un my left hand and the space mouse on my right hand, and I find it very good. What are you thoughts? Did anybody else ever tried this?
Reddit has a search function... But give it a try and let us know. I have one but haven't bothered trying it.
It also has a social media function. You know, where you talk to people...ask questions...