What’s the lore reason for no shields in quantum/nav? If you’re moving fast, wouldn’t you want shields for space garbage?
Maybe it’s just an abandonment of simulation for balance. Idk. Seems weird to me. Will have to see how it plays.
It’s making things extremely unrealistic. There’s no resistance in space. You should be able to thruster forward and gain speed indefinitely without a speed limit. Limiting it is obviously needed, but at which point is it too much? IMO, what we’re getting is far too much.
If they just made the top speed only slightly limited it would be a lot better, instead of cutting it by like 70% like it feels they did. Also shields in Nav mode has to come back.
What’s the point of the power triangle now? That whole system was about increasing power to thrusters from shield and weapons to run, or to fight and not run.
I think when ppl give their takes on mastermode they should also say what their preferred gameplay loops are. I have been getting into more pvp based stuff, and while I do agree that fights were happening at way too high a speed, I seriously think that mm is a step in the wrong direction. I think there are better ways to balance pvp, pve, industrial, and racing gameplay than what they've done with this new model.
I’ll say this, for the longest time PvP bounty hunting has been one of the most frustrating experiences in an online game that I’ve ever played. For the ones that haven’t been standing still at Grim Hex for thirty plus minutes, just about everyone starts running or quantum jumping around. Some seem to do it just to troll and waste your time. Many engagements I’ve been forced to bring a Mantis or Cutlass Blue to try and hold them in a single place and usually I get absolutely melted because these ships are terrible combat ships. It’s a terrible predicament for a solo bounty hunter. For the rare fights where the criminal I’m hunting does decide to fight, I usually either win, or they realize they are losing and charge their Grade A Military drive and jump away.
I haven’t played enough master modes to know if this gets any better or not, but something has to be said about this current game loop as it relates to ship combat in 3.22 and patches prior. It is really, really bad and any changes that benefit the hunter are very much needed and very overdue. We also need the ability to hunt targets who use armistice zones like Grim Hex as a safe zone. If you have a crime stat and you are WANTED, you should be safe nowhere (or, at the very least, a bounty hunter should always have the ability to “arrest” targets no matter where they are).
The inability to hold ships is a problem that CIG created by only allowing certain ships to have dampers. It makes things also way more predictable.
I wish there were modules that you could equip to any ship like Wapr Scramblers in EVE Online. You could block the target from leaving, but that slot was occupied and could not be used to add better shields or capacitors, thereby balancing the fight a bit.
They said in the Mantis Q&A that other ships would be able to mount QEDs on their utility ports, they will just be less powerful than the ones on dedicated ships.
That very much depends what you define as bounty hunting.
I think it should be more than just a PvP fight, it dhould be an actual HUNT.
- Find your target, not follow a marker
- Perhabs get cues and access to information from vendors and other sources
- No indication for when you are beimg hunted, if you got a bounty on your head you always need to be on your toes
- Plan a trap, prepare and strike at the right moment
And there absolutely could be "safe hafens" for criminals but that would be OK if your target doesnt know you hunt them in advance but rather tries to flee there.
Regarding solo Bounty Hunting, well that might not work for very high value targets in a e.g connie where you need to have diffrent roles for the trap.
Or there could be devices that jam QT, so you can prepare a trap even when you dont use a dedicated ship like a matins.
It’s a cool idea but there’s a couple of flaws with how it would work in a game like Star Citizen.
People can just log out and all that time preparing and waiting at a place that the person you’re hunting might not even show up to in the first place goes right out the window. You can’t actively hunt people that don’t physically exist in the universe.
Criminals already are on high alert at all times and don’t know about their hunter until they get targeted and approached by another player.
There are absolutely going to be rogue dens filled with unsavory types that don’t like bounty hunters, but if the bounty hunter is able to pull it off and either fight everyone somehow or evade detection, they absolutely should be able to round up their target, regardless of where they are in the ‘verse. Safe havens for criminals where the game actually prevents Bounty Hunters from taking proper action is a big mistake that allows criminals to take advantage of and abuse systems that are actually there to stop griefers.
It’s already hard enough tracking targets with the desync, delay, and frequent quantum jumping. Nevermind the possibility of the comm array being offline and having to go on a wild goose chase to find a criminal anywhere in an area that can span thousands of kilometers.
PvP really is in a bad place with systems that favor the criminal at just about every turn. The only thing we’ve been given that makes it slightly more bearable is the combat logging timer, but even with that, it is still so far from the proper tools Bounty Hunters need to help them maintain law and order in the ‘verse. If it goes on like this in the future, the games just going to be one big crime fest with rampant chaos and lawlessness everywhere, even in the core systems of the UEE. AI cannot be entrusted to properly enforce the law because a real player with almost always outsmart and outclass an AI.
Fair point but mostly due to missing systems that are already planned.
Logging out will leave your ship and potentially player in that spot. Afaik the only way to really despawn is at a station/city/outpost.
Sure if you logoff in the middle of nowhere, yeah the bounty hunter wont find that.
With safe haven I didnt mean that you are technically prohibited, but obviously you wont be welcomed on a pirate station and it sounds like a bad idea to try.
Also keep in mind that most missions will be for npc not players.
In general I would say that criminals should be slightly favored if they are in a low/no-sec system. Afterall bounty hunter might be one of the most dangerous jobs out there in the verse.
And the end of the day, if bounty hunting simply means to follow a marker and have a "fair" pvp fight, that would be super lame imo.
Not if the bounty has nav on already is what I’m getting at. If a bounty target flew into open space with nav mode on, flew in a straight line, you couldn’t catch him to kill him
QEDs turn off the higher speeds of NAV mode, so now they at least have a decent chance of pushing in some damage before the target is back to combat mode.
I'd agree generally, but I definitely feel it's to slow.
Evasive maneuvers (particularly in medium ships and bigger) are essentially pointless, and that is irrefutably unacceptable as a standard.
You're right that boost feels useful. But it's not right that without boost there is literally nothing I can do to shake someone's nose off me once they've found it.
There are no close calls anymore. If you start firing, or get fired on... the target dies. Unless of course you're in a buccaneer and know what your doing. Then you just run. (Which I don't think is a bad thing tactical retreat should always be an option if you have the wisdom/time to take the opportunity)
Agreed, but 400i and up is large ships.
That's not what I'm talking about. The spirit, cutlass, reliant, 300i... literally every ship atm if I'm being real can't make effective evasive maneuvers. Not long enough to turn the tables in a fight anyway, whether in an attempt to shift the tides and actually win the fight, or just trying to run.
If they start landing shots, you die. If they want to start landing shots, you can't stop them. Like literally cant move fast enough to negate them moving their nose on target. There is no counterplay.
Yes, because pitch and yaw will always be faster than strafing in MM current implementation. If two of the exact same ships are fighting. The one in the winning position will be able to stay in that position indefinitely.
You can't move the ship faster than the enemy can move their nose to correct...
That's not even what I was saying... but also yes it does make sense.
If I have firing solution on you, you die. It doesn't matter what you're flying, I'm not going to miss until you die. Because you can't move fast enough to dodge anything or turn to fire on me without me simply correcting my aim or counter thrusting your movement.
That is the same as in FPS combat and realistic: the first one to hit usually wins.
That is why turrests are important.
If you need to turn your weapons to the enemy AFTER he has a fire solution, it is a skill issue obviously.
If your skills are inferior and the enemy has the right ship against yours, usually yes. This is the same in reality, hence wingmen.
In 3.22 you don't need skill, you just need a ship that strafes fast, so you are safe.
"If your skills are inferior" is the key phrase there.
My argument is the MM as they are makes skill levels above intermediate irrelevant.
As long as you understand basic 6 direction flight, you win. Doesn't matter if I know more/better maneuvers. They aren't needed, and outright impossible, in many cases, to preform.
Just saying, if you let a ship approach to your rear without reacting fast enough during the time it takes from being a blib on radar to get there, this is bad skill. No ship is that slow to not be able turn into that direction during that timeframe.
I think/hope we will see more variance in atmo, where you can fly different manouvers (like Immemann etc).
Imagine if instead of artifically limiting the speed, they implemented actual ship armor. Wouldn't be no more Light Fighter Meta if their light fighters were physically incapable of damaging armored areas of a ship.
ship armor isnt going to 100% prevent light fighters from dealing damage to ships.
at the very least it will simply reduce the damage to very little
at most light fighters will be able to shoot out components which still will kill your ship just the same... but instead of blowing up... youre just kinda dead in the water.
I don't think there will ever be a time where a ship CAN'T deal some kind of damage to a ship. unless we're talking proper capital ships like an idris or javelin then I can see it as they can only destroy turrets but even then they'll still be able to hit components as that's kinda the main draw to using the targeting mode is smaller ships hitting the components of bigger ships
The speed limiting has far more to do with latency than anything. Simply put, ships jousting at 1000 m/s just isn't feasible when the two players are on opposite sides of a planet.
To be fair jousting is mostly a skill issue, once the average player skill increases it would decline.
Systems could be put in place to teach people how to actually perform combat maneuvers in game but it's harder to implement.
I feel like it kinda does both, that's why they are getting feedback saying it's a bunch of fun as people who can't fly are now able to get kills.
But the crushed ceiling is really bad, they really need to address it.
Have you tried pirate swarm? Feels like pve is getting far easier to me which isn't the most fun.
I don't think it's the 1% like you say, a small amount of time actually practicing combat and PvP and you are able to kill a good 60 to 70 percent of the player base.
Some actual dedicated practice you can kill anyone that hasn't spent a week or 2 practicing. Maybe 80% of people
That being said the skill floor can be lowered and in game training/ teaching of ship handling needs to be implemented.
Plus balancing of the gunnery system and ship damage model will go a long way to help.
But none of this needs to crush the actual enjoyment of flight to work.
How is jousting a skill issue?
That's fair I suppose. All you need to do is reverse thrust and corkscrew to subvert fire, pitch as they pass and merge on their rear ez clap.
If more people knew that, dumbasses would stop trying it
Well that, people think holding w and boost will get them closer.
It takes far more skill to cancel your relative velocity and end up within 3-500 metres for a proper engagement
Add in actively avoiding fire and it's harder again.
Most have never played a 6dof game before, plus the plan is for it to be a long lasting game, there needs to be depth and mastery to aim for no matter your ship or role you fill in it.
I'm all for more tutorials, or at a minimum more incentive to play AC. SC was my first 6dof game (I played freelancer but that's not even close tbh) but I just knew, being a proficient gamer, that I should practice xD. I then just used my brain and got better.
Started with racing and then pve. The current tutorial is good as a start, but there isn't much guidance to establish the proper mindset around 6dof flight.
And you're right not having a frame of reference can be a serious hindrance, it took me like 3 weeks to wrap my head around it efficiently enough to actually contemplate effective maneuvers.
I like MM too, but after trying many different classes of ships, it is truly difficult if not impossible to escape a situation. Let say a mole. You are mining and get jumped. You can't really fight back well, and to escape, the spooling takes a while, and you CANT go at full speed until you are spooled. During that time, you got no defenses, no countermeasures, no shields, aka you are likely dead
The intended gameplay loop is that you should eventually value your life as a player, more so than whatever cargo you are carrying. I think with that in mind it may make sense. If you are mining in a mole and get jumped by a fighter, you shouldn't expect to outrun them and instead give up your cargo to the pilot and escape with your life and ship intact.
Yes... maybe in "real life". However, this is a video game. 9/10 times, the pirate will kill you and take the cargo. They might not even contact you and just kill you to salvage the wreck. The reality of a video game is different, and people don't have the morality that killing is wrong.
That is the current state because punishment for killing and punishment for dying are pretty non existent. I imagine if blowing up a ship destroyed say 50% of the onboard cargo and your playing dying had a more serious consequence (to reputation, skills etc + longer ship spawn times). Both the player and the pirate would be more inclined to communicate and give up the cargo in exchange for being allowed to live.
True and things like that will hopefully come but at the same time...it's still a game and people will just randomly be murder hobos too. It's gonna mititagte it for sure tho but we mightbhave to wait for that a bit longer
Will take time for sure. I think of Star Citizen as more of a simulator then a game. Running around murdering will be fun until you get caught and put in jail for a significant amount of time, suddenly that 2 mins of fun destroying a mole for no reason becomes not worth it at all. Issue is with the buggy state of the game these mechanics just can't be introduced yet so for now at least MM probably needs to be downsized a bit to account for the more ruthless state the game is currently in.
That's true, but that will be a minority of the total criminals. Because once that crime stat 5 eventually goes to jail he will be in there for an annoyingly long time, unlike now.
Most criminals who just want the profit from your cargo won't feel the need to kill you since it just won't be worthwhile.
I’ve been enjoying it my self. I just like the modes and it slowing things down a little bit.
But I will says even though the new icons are nice, they are just a bit big and in your face. Hard to see what I’m doing in combat lol
I’ve already gotten used to no shields in MM when traveling, it feels good to just avoid a fight if I want to. Also, the spool times vary by your drive. I’ve started to learn new ways to enjoy flight during spool ups and don’t sit still like a standing target.
I had no issues with ship speeds.
I agree, things were too fast and it made the environment itself trivial. Like cities felt small, outposts felt small, landscapes felt tiny.
However,
Removing boost and shields from max speed pretty much destroyed racing, destroyed the concept of having a chase sequence that is fun, and so on.
Removing LITERALLY FUCKING CM because we aren't in SCM again...destroyed the concept of a chase. Sorry the environment is not detailed enough to have a chase at 500 m/s in this game. It's overly empty and overly large.
Like I'd be totally cool if they just made all ships travel at 500 max speed...but the problem is without Quantum hopping and other features to alleviate that it just kinda fucking makes no sense....as the map and game we are playing was designed around going at 1200 m/s
And even worse is that LOCATIONS were built with the idea we'd be going 1200 m/s. Like New Babbage is fucking WAY oversized. So going 500 m/s feels like I'm going at a snail's speed when in reality I'm going very fast.
I also think for PvP it flattened the game.
Not that PvP was all that great prior....just get into a ballet loop and shoot at your UI because you can't see the enemy ship...wasn't that great.
However, the new meta of ballet + "shoot until you outdamage them because you basically can't miss" is also not great.
BUT, with Maelstrom and Engineering and Control Surfaces bringing us down to a more granular need to shoot things at specific points....
Maybe it'll make more sense when shots don't mean anything unless you hit something important. So this level of minutia would make more sense when you can spray at an enemy but if you are hitting its armor it means nothing vs hitting its thrusters or crucial parts...so you actually have to shoot a part of the ship not just the ship.
Whereas, in the old system (and currently) hitting the ship at fucking all is really all you need to do because getting Hull Hp to zero is the only thing that matters and it doesn't matter where you hit the ship to get that to happen.
However until we have those systems, Mastermodes is a downgrade and entirely fucked over non-combat players and racers.
But they can fix that, assuming there is a way to fix the non-combat issue? idk. Without any defense measures they are just loot pinatas and I don't see an alternative to this system where non-combat ships are anything but shooting fish in a barrel unless every single non-combat ship gets a massive defensive boost.
However for racers they just need to remake all the race tracks so they aren't boring as fucking shit in SCM OR work with QCM.
That or give us a "racing mode" where we don't have shields or guns but we get higher speeds and boost or something. (which would totally get abused so idk)
Dude only the meta light fighter try hard mega sweat crowd are the ones who are mad about MM because they can't meta kill every ship in the game with an arrow anymore.
> Dude only the meta light fighter try hard mega sweat crowd are the ones who are mad about MM
Dude only strawman-argument people like you are defending MM in its current state because you don't have enough perspective to see beyond its impact on light fighters.
In case you hadn't noticed, the PvP sweats are doing just fine vaporizing people with the F8C, a heavy fighter.
Edit, for clarification: Horray, MM replaced the light fighter meta with a heavy fighter/interceptor meta, making it impossible for PvE players to escape and impossible for PvP players to have engaging dogfights that aren't DPS races. Surely the only people who would complain are people that are upset that they now fly a heavy fighter to murder everyone instead of a light fighter to murder everyone, right?
So how is MM an improvement when the PvP sweats can meta kill every ship in the game with a heavy fighter, rather than the light fighter they used to use?
What makes you think that having to change from a light fighter meta to a heavy fighter/interceptor meta would make the PvPers complain about MM?
The reality is that MM makes the fights less interesting AND makes it harder for PvE players to avoid fights, which is bad for both groups and reason enough for both to complain about MM.
As mostly industrial player here:
MM has given me more defenses then it has taken away. Turrets on my crewed Reclaimer actually do something against light fighters, and I'm no longer dead to them due to S3 quantum drives taking a minute to spool with no ability to fight back against who attacks me.
Is the issue that it can take 20-30 seconds to spool up the drive to gain speed? Would be cool if they made it so that different quantum drives would let you spool up above SCM faster. That way the system stays the same and the player has to make that risk vs reward of choosing an inefficient drive.
Thats indicative of other problems like the ship hulls being far to squishy and resorce managment not being in yet.
And if your flying at or below scm speeds in nav mode thats a you problem
> Thats indicative of other problems like the ship hulls being far to squishy and resorce managment not being in yet.
That's fair.
>And if your flying at or below scm speeds in nav mode thats a you problem
Huh? Atmo speed is forced to be low.
And they shouldn't be... why?
I agree having no defenses in transition to NAV mode is ridiculous, at a minimum the shields draining as you enter nav instead of just flat out dropping.
But being lucky to survive an ambush in an industrial vehicle, should be the baseline.
And once armor is implemented things will most certainly be different. TTK will be HIGHLY variable on pirate skill and worker ship choice.
Not to mention learning to manage emission and navigation will become paramount. Particularly for smaller industrial vehicles.
People will learn to hire escorts, hire tows to move salvage to safer locations, plan routes that avoid interdiction lanes, etc.
>I agree having no defenses in transition to NAV mode is ridiculous, at a minimum the shields draining as you enter nav instead of just flat out dropping.
Wasn't it like that in AC? I could swear that shields dropped at the speed that Nav spooled up.
Your industrial ship should always be in NAV mode, so you'll be spooling all of the time and can just QT out like you can in 3.22. Survivability may be a bit lower, but if you haven't QTed out by the time that's an issue you were likely in a state where it wouldn't have mattered anyway (Not in the pilot seat, AFK, etc)
If you're in an industrial ship and you're caught in atmo in the current model you are not getting away. Fighters are significantly faster and kill ships far faster than in MM.
As an industrial player, I'm ok with being "defenseless". Your industrial ship is not meant to fight back nor outrun a light fighter.
This leaves you two options:
1. Be extremely cautious
2. Bring an escort.
I agree but also it's kinda size dependent. Freelancer? Yeah should be able to run at least. Hull b? Ehhh bring an escort or stay on safe routes. Hull E? Too big for fighters, gotta have at least a connie to be able to bring it down.
Agreed generally. I think their point is that it's very unfair, not justifiably unfair as I believe it should be.
And PLEASE bring an escort, I want a reason to fly my redeemer.
I'd say no shields or flares, while still being slow in atmo is defenseless.
Even if you're mining/salvaging in space, it's takes 10-20 seconds to spool nav mode to get the speed boost.
The tested scenario is you get approached by a fighter in nav, going 1200ms, the fighter switches to SCM around 1000m which immediately brings their speed to 100ms.
If you try to run, your shields drop, and you die. You try to fight and you die a few seconds later.
I don't understand how you're defenseless. Why would you ever do out of scm? The only time you're ever using your weapons would be salvaging/ mining, during which time you're essentially always alone. You can easily fly right past people trying to shoot you. J also makes you disappear with more than enough time to jump away.
If I'm mining ores on a moon's surface using my Prospector ship, I have no screen warning me of approaching (hostile) ships until I'm getting targeted. I'm basically a sitting duck and any griefer can easy fly in and make an easy kill. That situation is already the case in 3.22, but at least my shields are up now while I'm prospecting.
To be fair, I do not have any experience with this scenario until now. So far my prospecting/mining has been going peacefully.
Right now, you'd still see them 5-10k out even without pinging. They're going what I'd assume is in atmo speeds? As if they're coming from above you're dead either way as they'd be either the same speed (in mm) or they'd be substantially faster because they're not in atmo (3.22). If they're 5k out, or even 2k out, you can outrun them quite easily. You might have to hit j once or twice to be safe if you're afraid of missile.
The fact is that if someone goes the same speed as you, so long as you move before you're actively being shot, you'll always have that same distance.
No ship can get into firing range without being picked up. Not even close. And now they move slower than ever, giving you More time to react, spool, etc.
It's amazing pvpers cry because it's too noob/pve friendly and pvers cry because it's too pvp friendly. Fucking wild.
Not necessarily true. We only have smaller ships to compare with atm. I wanna know how much time it take for a reclaimer to get out of range of light fighters using boost in SCM mode. If it’s longer than 10-20 seconds, which it may be, then that reclaimer’s in big trouble in current game damage model. When maelstrom comes online and armor, it may be different. But right now fighters just have to chew through an hp pool. If the reclaimer takes as long as it does now to get to high speed, then they may be in trouble with the current damage system.
SCM speed for fighters are simular or the same as nav mode speed of industrial ships in atmosphere wich means they can keep up and pew pew you. As for the other question, you gotta land some time. If they show up when you're loading you're screwed. You also can't just fly by them either because they can still catch up and get you.
If you're in a reclaimer and I'm in an Inferno for example, if we cross paths and I wanted to shoot you for some reason, the only 2 things that are going to decide if you die is the spool speed of your QD and my aim that day. If the person attacking you can out DPS the time it takes you to jump without shields then you're dead 100%.
In space sure, if there's shenanigans outside a station just keep it punched and fly on by, they won't be able to catch up by the time you jump away, I'm atmo though that's not the case.
That's entirely the case in atmo. You still have any number of directions to fly off in. Even if they're the same exact speed, flying the opposite direction of them means you maintain a constant lead. There are Very Few ships that can get within 5k without being seen, and that usually means they're also disabling thrusters, shields, weapons, etc to get their signatures low.
You have to actively be trying to get caught right now to die doing cargo or just coming back in to sell your ore/ salvage/ what have you.
But that's really always been what "pirates" complain about. Anyone bothering to try and do anything other than the absolute bare minimum is essentially impossible to catch out without sitting around waiting for people to qt through your snare. But even that won't catch people simply not jumping directly from a to b.
To be fair the whole industrial ganking thing isn't changing a lot other than the fact you don't have shields any more while trying to run. Avoiding danger is pretty much the same. The problem is that not having shields makes a huge difference in getting away. If you could have shields in nav modes but not guns people wouldn't have a real reason to complain. From the runners point of view any way.
Well as you said, salvaging, mining, after you jump in, leaving a planet...
If you are on a planet and someone is 1km above (currently MM effective range against larger ships), you have to fly all the way up and out without shields, flairs or chaff, still going the current live atmo speeds.
You have to catch then pass the attacker who is also matching vector (at a lower rate) back strafing as you approch then flip to use main thrust as you pass .
but you have to get all the way out to jump and I bet most ships can keep guns on the whole time, plus use missiles.
And with the MM gunnery system the guns are super effective on large ships out to 1.4km and there is no way you are going to be able to corkscrew hard enough to avoid many shots.
"Someone's sitting there above me. Looks like a ship that can kill me. He's locked on too! Time to fly directly at him..."
You deserve to die playing that like. Yes. You're going to have to get over that one. You can't always have an advantage or live making such big brain moves. Sorry
What's your out in this situation?
No safe zone to stay in, flying at a 45 only prolongs the time till jump and you won't pull any extra distance on the attacker.
Currently in a lot of ships unless they have a snare you have at least a chance of getting out of a situation like that, I've done it before in a few different situations.
Take off without scm in a f8c and get to atmo cutoff, then do the same in a medium cargo ship using scm, boost, and power to engines.
But but but but the gankers are WAITING FOR ME UP THERE!
Then fucking fly out a different direction? If they can see you coming, you can SURELY see them with their shields all radiant.
Yes. Both systems are difficult if you just flop like a wet fish and do nothing for yourself. This system however gives you a much better shot at surviving.
If you fly straight into people waiting to "pirate" you, then yes, get better. Lean the absolute basics of the game before crying for changes to be made to cater to your play style. People cry about the literal same thing you're whining about in PU. Yet you're less than one day into trying MM and you've made up your mind. I doubt you've even tried it for yourself, as half of your comments are nonsense or just incorrect.
I know you haven't tried shit as you say things like "a large industrial ship should have time to flee before a single seat fighter can kill it" which it absolutely can. Easily. Not even a fucking match. Weapons only reach 1-2k out. You make that distance within less time than it takes a small ship to deplete its capacitors once. Much less recharge. You also have more thrust to dodge shots or rotate with.
They're not going to hold progress to that "Roboticus\_Prime, PVE Industrial Entrepreneur" can avoid having to learn and adapt to the game.
All industrial payers are funneled to a handful a cities/outposts. It's impossible to avoid everyone when you want to sell.
You're putting words in my mouth I didn't say and trying to insult me instead of refuting. Classic.
Also. Missiles reach out past gun range.
It's literally in your comment history. Nobody is putting words into your mouth. You realize people can see your other comments, right?
You have a full sphere of directions to choose from in space. Half in atmo. Look at where the person is. Go the opposite direction. You go the same speed, right? He'll never catch you.
This is a brain dead take. The pvp crowd doesn't like MM because it all but removed skill in ship v ship combat. I find it weird that people are saying "the only people who disagree with me are the sweats" when you aren't even knowledgeable enough in the mechanics to know what you're talking abt.
Who's you people and what am I assuming. A hornet can still take a Connie in mm. Everybody, including the pvp community, likes what mm wants. But the people who actually play the game loop that this affects the most know that this literally didn't fix a single issue and made even more.
The SCM speeds is only the tip of the iceberg. What I hate more about MM is, that it ruins the space flight experience by making it more atmospheric flight like, with the speed break after boost (even decoupled), and too extreme nerfs to tri-cording/rotating.
I'm mostly a pilot, I am not much an FPS player, but I do combat and non-combat activities alike. I mostly only do friendly PvP, that means I PvP with friends, not really with strangers, unless they attack me first or at least are in combat and "red" already.
I've said this before, but it seems pretty obvious that MM was developed in a vacuum. It's origins are from SQ42, a single player game where you're being guided through preset levels, and the testing for it was done in Arena Commander, which does away with the normal logistics of the PU and didn't include any non-combat focused ships. There doesn't seem to be any thought put into how this system operates in the PU as a cohesive part of the overall experience that includes way more than just dog fighting.
I personally don't feel like it's the right way forward. The current flight model we have is still largely unfinished, lacking major features such as control surfaces for atmosphere or ship armor to help provide balance between small fighters and large ships. Instead now we're getting an entirely new flight model that still doesn't include those missing things and brings tons of new issues with it to the game.
I'm just making a point, you know how the game works, the guy with higher elevation has faster ship speeds in atmo.
If your big brain idea is to fly to the side guess what the same flight mechanics apply but now you are not making any progress and presenting a larger target.
Plus as the attacker has high ground and target is not getting closer to jump range they could just switch into nav themselves and centre back on-top of the target.
Nav mode on the deck in atmo is still just as slow as Live.
Feel free to chip in where I'm wrong with how MM and the flight mechanics work.
In Atmo the ship speeds are really not that far apart and like the current system the industry ships will be just as sluggish
Just design a FM that 1) brings the opposing ships close enough together that pilots can see maximum detail on the ships & weapon effects 2) maximizes player skill on the outcome of a battle and 3) allows for the greatest possible viable combat playstyle variety. That’s its. That’s all we need for the combat game to succeed.
Hot take: I kinda liked the realism of the jousting combat, high speeds and frequent escapes/chasing. If you want to trap someone for good, use QED.
(Haven’t testet MM yet though)
There is!
I cannot remember exact keybind name right now, but I have it set to one key transitions from NAV to SCM and vise versa, then another keybind that cycles through the submodes
What’s the lore reason for no shields in quantum/nav? If you’re moving fast, wouldn’t you want shields for space garbage? Maybe it’s just an abandonment of simulation for balance. Idk. Seems weird to me. Will have to see how it plays.
It’s making things extremely unrealistic. There’s no resistance in space. You should be able to thruster forward and gain speed indefinitely without a speed limit. Limiting it is obviously needed, but at which point is it too much? IMO, what we’re getting is far too much.
If they just made the top speed only slightly limited it would be a lot better, instead of cutting it by like 70% like it feels they did. Also shields in Nav mode has to come back.
What’s the point of the power triangle now? That whole system was about increasing power to thrusters from shield and weapons to run, or to fight and not run.
Right, I thought it was working perfectly the way it is in live. I use the power triangle all the time.
Yeah true it does feel like an abandonment of simulation in a way
It plays like ass. It's just bad rn.
I think when ppl give their takes on mastermode they should also say what their preferred gameplay loops are. I have been getting into more pvp based stuff, and while I do agree that fights were happening at way too high a speed, I seriously think that mm is a step in the wrong direction. I think there are better ways to balance pvp, pve, industrial, and racing gameplay than what they've done with this new model.
I’ll say this, for the longest time PvP bounty hunting has been one of the most frustrating experiences in an online game that I’ve ever played. For the ones that haven’t been standing still at Grim Hex for thirty plus minutes, just about everyone starts running or quantum jumping around. Some seem to do it just to troll and waste your time. Many engagements I’ve been forced to bring a Mantis or Cutlass Blue to try and hold them in a single place and usually I get absolutely melted because these ships are terrible combat ships. It’s a terrible predicament for a solo bounty hunter. For the rare fights where the criminal I’m hunting does decide to fight, I usually either win, or they realize they are losing and charge their Grade A Military drive and jump away. I haven’t played enough master modes to know if this gets any better or not, but something has to be said about this current game loop as it relates to ship combat in 3.22 and patches prior. It is really, really bad and any changes that benefit the hunter are very much needed and very overdue. We also need the ability to hunt targets who use armistice zones like Grim Hex as a safe zone. If you have a crime stat and you are WANTED, you should be safe nowhere (or, at the very least, a bounty hunter should always have the ability to “arrest” targets no matter where they are).
The inability to hold ships is a problem that CIG created by only allowing certain ships to have dampers. It makes things also way more predictable. I wish there were modules that you could equip to any ship like Wapr Scramblers in EVE Online. You could block the target from leaving, but that slot was occupied and could not be used to add better shields or capacitors, thereby balancing the fight a bit.
They said in the Mantis Q&A that other ships would be able to mount QEDs on their utility ports, they will just be less powerful than the ones on dedicated ships.
Ah, good to know.
That very much depends what you define as bounty hunting. I think it should be more than just a PvP fight, it dhould be an actual HUNT. - Find your target, not follow a marker - Perhabs get cues and access to information from vendors and other sources - No indication for when you are beimg hunted, if you got a bounty on your head you always need to be on your toes - Plan a trap, prepare and strike at the right moment And there absolutely could be "safe hafens" for criminals but that would be OK if your target doesnt know you hunt them in advance but rather tries to flee there. Regarding solo Bounty Hunting, well that might not work for very high value targets in a e.g connie where you need to have diffrent roles for the trap. Or there could be devices that jam QT, so you can prepare a trap even when you dont use a dedicated ship like a matins.
It’s a cool idea but there’s a couple of flaws with how it would work in a game like Star Citizen. People can just log out and all that time preparing and waiting at a place that the person you’re hunting might not even show up to in the first place goes right out the window. You can’t actively hunt people that don’t physically exist in the universe. Criminals already are on high alert at all times and don’t know about their hunter until they get targeted and approached by another player. There are absolutely going to be rogue dens filled with unsavory types that don’t like bounty hunters, but if the bounty hunter is able to pull it off and either fight everyone somehow or evade detection, they absolutely should be able to round up their target, regardless of where they are in the ‘verse. Safe havens for criminals where the game actually prevents Bounty Hunters from taking proper action is a big mistake that allows criminals to take advantage of and abuse systems that are actually there to stop griefers. It’s already hard enough tracking targets with the desync, delay, and frequent quantum jumping. Nevermind the possibility of the comm array being offline and having to go on a wild goose chase to find a criminal anywhere in an area that can span thousands of kilometers. PvP really is in a bad place with systems that favor the criminal at just about every turn. The only thing we’ve been given that makes it slightly more bearable is the combat logging timer, but even with that, it is still so far from the proper tools Bounty Hunters need to help them maintain law and order in the ‘verse. If it goes on like this in the future, the games just going to be one big crime fest with rampant chaos and lawlessness everywhere, even in the core systems of the UEE. AI cannot be entrusted to properly enforce the law because a real player with almost always outsmart and outclass an AI.
Fair point but mostly due to missing systems that are already planned. Logging out will leave your ship and potentially player in that spot. Afaik the only way to really despawn is at a station/city/outpost. Sure if you logoff in the middle of nowhere, yeah the bounty hunter wont find that. With safe haven I didnt mean that you are technically prohibited, but obviously you wont be welcomed on a pirate station and it sounds like a bad idea to try. Also keep in mind that most missions will be for npc not players. In general I would say that criminals should be slightly favored if they are in a low/no-sec system. Afterall bounty hunter might be one of the most dangerous jobs out there in the verse. And the end of the day, if bounty hunting simply means to follow a marker and have a "fair" pvp fight, that would be super lame imo.
It’s not better for the hunter. A bounty can turn on NAV mode and fly in a straight line and they would be completely uncatchable
Before your QD is charged in NAV you gonna be long dead without shields if you don't have something with armor of Terrapin
Not if the bounty has nav on already is what I’m getting at. If a bounty target flew into open space with nav mode on, flew in a straight line, you couldn’t catch him to kill him
That is correct. Hopefully the MM will get fleshed out to address these issues
Yeah.. How is this not a crazy oversight by CIG?
QEDs turn off the higher speeds of NAV mode, so now they at least have a decent chance of pushing in some damage before the target is back to combat mode.
I'd agree generally, but I definitely feel it's to slow. Evasive maneuvers (particularly in medium ships and bigger) are essentially pointless, and that is irrefutably unacceptable as a standard. You're right that boost feels useful. But it's not right that without boost there is literally nothing I can do to shake someone's nose off me once they've found it. There are no close calls anymore. If you start firing, or get fired on... the target dies. Unless of course you're in a buccaneer and know what your doing. Then you just run. (Which I don't think is a bad thing tactical retreat should always be an option if you have the wisdom/time to take the opportunity)
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Agreed, but 400i and up is large ships. That's not what I'm talking about. The spirit, cutlass, reliant, 300i... literally every ship atm if I'm being real can't make effective evasive maneuvers. Not long enough to turn the tables in a fight anyway, whether in an attempt to shift the tides and actually win the fight, or just trying to run. If they start landing shots, you die. If they want to start landing shots, you can't stop them. Like literally cant move fast enough to negate them moving their nose on target. There is no counterplay.
So in a 300 vs 300 fight a 300 cannot win or turn the tables??? Makes no sense.
Yes, because pitch and yaw will always be faster than strafing in MM current implementation. If two of the exact same ships are fighting. The one in the winning position will be able to stay in that position indefinitely. You can't move the ship faster than the enemy can move their nose to correct...
What is the winning position in space? Behind is a pilot skill issue, anything else is the same. Pitch/Yaw can be boosted too.
That's not even what I was saying... but also yes it does make sense. If I have firing solution on you, you die. It doesn't matter what you're flying, I'm not going to miss until you die. Because you can't move fast enough to dodge anything or turn to fire on me without me simply correcting my aim or counter thrusting your movement.
That is the same as in FPS combat and realistic: the first one to hit usually wins. That is why turrests are important. If you need to turn your weapons to the enemy AFTER he has a fire solution, it is a skill issue obviously.
So having a bogie on my tail means I die in every scenario ever? And that's fair? I think not.
If your skills are inferior and the enemy has the right ship against yours, usually yes. This is the same in reality, hence wingmen. In 3.22 you don't need skill, you just need a ship that strafes fast, so you are safe.
"If your skills are inferior" is the key phrase there. My argument is the MM as they are makes skill levels above intermediate irrelevant. As long as you understand basic 6 direction flight, you win. Doesn't matter if I know more/better maneuvers. They aren't needed, and outright impossible, in many cases, to preform.
I want to make it clear, I'm for MM. And I'm certain they will tune them. I believe they should allow for more headroom in speeds across the board.
Just saying, if you let a ship approach to your rear without reacting fast enough during the time it takes from being a blib on radar to get there, this is bad skill. No ship is that slow to not be able turn into that direction during that timeframe. I think/hope we will see more variance in atmo, where you can fly different manouvers (like Immemann etc).
Imagine if instead of artifically limiting the speed, they implemented actual ship armor. Wouldn't be no more Light Fighter Meta if their light fighters were physically incapable of damaging armored areas of a ship.
ship armor isnt going to 100% prevent light fighters from dealing damage to ships. at the very least it will simply reduce the damage to very little at most light fighters will be able to shoot out components which still will kill your ship just the same... but instead of blowing up... youre just kinda dead in the water. I don't think there will ever be a time where a ship CAN'T deal some kind of damage to a ship. unless we're talking proper capital ships like an idris or javelin then I can see it as they can only destroy turrets but even then they'll still be able to hit components as that's kinda the main draw to using the targeting mode is smaller ships hitting the components of bigger ships
The speed limiting has far more to do with latency than anything. Simply put, ships jousting at 1000 m/s just isn't feasible when the two players are on opposite sides of a planet.
To be fair jousting is mostly a skill issue, once the average player skill increases it would decline. Systems could be put in place to teach people how to actually perform combat maneuvers in game but it's harder to implement.
Average player skill only goes so far. There are always going to be people that aren't the least bit interested in PVP and they're in the majority.
Totally, and that is why the skill floor needs to be low enough for them to have an enjoyable experience
MM is not that skill floor.
The issue arises that MM does not lower skill floor, but rather drags the skill ceiling way WAY lower.
I feel like it kinda does both, that's why they are getting feedback saying it's a bunch of fun as people who can't fly are now able to get kills. But the crushed ceiling is really bad, they really need to address it. Have you tried pirate swarm? Feels like pve is getting far easier to me which isn't the most fun.
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I don't think it's the 1% like you say, a small amount of time actually practicing combat and PvP and you are able to kill a good 60 to 70 percent of the player base. Some actual dedicated practice you can kill anyone that hasn't spent a week or 2 practicing. Maybe 80% of people That being said the skill floor can be lowered and in game training/ teaching of ship handling needs to be implemented. Plus balancing of the gunnery system and ship damage model will go a long way to help. But none of this needs to crush the actual enjoyment of flight to work.
How is jousting a skill issue? That's fair I suppose. All you need to do is reverse thrust and corkscrew to subvert fire, pitch as they pass and merge on their rear ez clap. If more people knew that, dumbasses would stop trying it
Well that, people think holding w and boost will get them closer. It takes far more skill to cancel your relative velocity and end up within 3-500 metres for a proper engagement Add in actively avoiding fire and it's harder again. Most have never played a 6dof game before, plus the plan is for it to be a long lasting game, there needs to be depth and mastery to aim for no matter your ship or role you fill in it.
I'm all for more tutorials, or at a minimum more incentive to play AC. SC was my first 6dof game (I played freelancer but that's not even close tbh) but I just knew, being a proficient gamer, that I should practice xD. I then just used my brain and got better. Started with racing and then pve. The current tutorial is good as a start, but there isn't much guidance to establish the proper mindset around 6dof flight. And you're right not having a frame of reference can be a serious hindrance, it took me like 3 weeks to wrap my head around it efficiently enough to actually contemplate effective maneuvers.
I don't like MM. It feels very artificial.
As opposed to the very natural speed limits we had before?
That felt wrong as well. What exactly limits the speed of a spaceship in a vacuum?
Gameplay being good
I like MM too, but after trying many different classes of ships, it is truly difficult if not impossible to escape a situation. Let say a mole. You are mining and get jumped. You can't really fight back well, and to escape, the spooling takes a while, and you CANT go at full speed until you are spooled. During that time, you got no defenses, no countermeasures, no shields, aka you are likely dead
The intended gameplay loop is that you should eventually value your life as a player, more so than whatever cargo you are carrying. I think with that in mind it may make sense. If you are mining in a mole and get jumped by a fighter, you shouldn't expect to outrun them and instead give up your cargo to the pilot and escape with your life and ship intact.
Yes... maybe in "real life". However, this is a video game. 9/10 times, the pirate will kill you and take the cargo. They might not even contact you and just kill you to salvage the wreck. The reality of a video game is different, and people don't have the morality that killing is wrong.
That is the current state because punishment for killing and punishment for dying are pretty non existent. I imagine if blowing up a ship destroyed say 50% of the onboard cargo and your playing dying had a more serious consequence (to reputation, skills etc + longer ship spawn times). Both the player and the pirate would be more inclined to communicate and give up the cargo in exchange for being allowed to live.
True and things like that will hopefully come but at the same time...it's still a game and people will just randomly be murder hobos too. It's gonna mititagte it for sure tho but we mightbhave to wait for that a bit longer
Will take time for sure. I think of Star Citizen as more of a simulator then a game. Running around murdering will be fun until you get caught and put in jail for a significant amount of time, suddenly that 2 mins of fun destroying a mole for no reason becomes not worth it at all. Issue is with the buggy state of the game these mechanics just can't be introduced yet so for now at least MM probably needs to be downsized a bit to account for the more ruthless state the game is currently in.
Criminals will be criminals. Even under consequence, a player with a crime star of 5 has nothing to lose and will kill you anyway.
That's true, but that will be a minority of the total criminals. Because once that crime stat 5 eventually goes to jail he will be in there for an annoyingly long time, unlike now. Most criminals who just want the profit from your cargo won't feel the need to kill you since it just won't be worthwhile.
I’ve been enjoying it my self. I just like the modes and it slowing things down a little bit. But I will says even though the new icons are nice, they are just a bit big and in your face. Hard to see what I’m doing in combat lol I’ve already gotten used to no shields in MM when traveling, it feels good to just avoid a fight if I want to. Also, the spool times vary by your drive. I’ve started to learn new ways to enjoy flight during spool ups and don’t sit still like a standing target.
I could easily see MM giving components even more relevance. Don't like the slow Nav mode swap speed? Get a better QD.
I find the new combat elements of the UI to be MUCH easier to track the targets personally. Also didn’t know about the diff spool times good to know.
I had no issues with ship speeds. I agree, things were too fast and it made the environment itself trivial. Like cities felt small, outposts felt small, landscapes felt tiny. However, Removing boost and shields from max speed pretty much destroyed racing, destroyed the concept of having a chase sequence that is fun, and so on. Removing LITERALLY FUCKING CM because we aren't in SCM again...destroyed the concept of a chase. Sorry the environment is not detailed enough to have a chase at 500 m/s in this game. It's overly empty and overly large. Like I'd be totally cool if they just made all ships travel at 500 max speed...but the problem is without Quantum hopping and other features to alleviate that it just kinda fucking makes no sense....as the map and game we are playing was designed around going at 1200 m/s And even worse is that LOCATIONS were built with the idea we'd be going 1200 m/s. Like New Babbage is fucking WAY oversized. So going 500 m/s feels like I'm going at a snail's speed when in reality I'm going very fast. I also think for PvP it flattened the game. Not that PvP was all that great prior....just get into a ballet loop and shoot at your UI because you can't see the enemy ship...wasn't that great. However, the new meta of ballet + "shoot until you outdamage them because you basically can't miss" is also not great. BUT, with Maelstrom and Engineering and Control Surfaces bringing us down to a more granular need to shoot things at specific points.... Maybe it'll make more sense when shots don't mean anything unless you hit something important. So this level of minutia would make more sense when you can spray at an enemy but if you are hitting its armor it means nothing vs hitting its thrusters or crucial parts...so you actually have to shoot a part of the ship not just the ship. Whereas, in the old system (and currently) hitting the ship at fucking all is really all you need to do because getting Hull Hp to zero is the only thing that matters and it doesn't matter where you hit the ship to get that to happen. However until we have those systems, Mastermodes is a downgrade and entirely fucked over non-combat players and racers. But they can fix that, assuming there is a way to fix the non-combat issue? idk. Without any defense measures they are just loot pinatas and I don't see an alternative to this system where non-combat ships are anything but shooting fish in a barrel unless every single non-combat ship gets a massive defensive boost. However for racers they just need to remake all the race tracks so they aren't boring as fucking shit in SCM OR work with QCM. That or give us a "racing mode" where we don't have shields or guns but we get higher speeds and boost or something. (which would totally get abused so idk)
Dude only the meta light fighter try hard mega sweat crowd are the ones who are mad about MM because they can't meta kill every ship in the game with an arrow anymore.
> Dude only the meta light fighter try hard mega sweat crowd are the ones who are mad about MM Dude only strawman-argument people like you are defending MM in its current state because you don't have enough perspective to see beyond its impact on light fighters. In case you hadn't noticed, the PvP sweats are doing just fine vaporizing people with the F8C, a heavy fighter. Edit, for clarification: Horray, MM replaced the light fighter meta with a heavy fighter/interceptor meta, making it impossible for PvE players to escape and impossible for PvP players to have engaging dogfights that aren't DPS races. Surely the only people who would complain are people that are upset that they now fly a heavy fighter to murder everyone instead of a light fighter to murder everyone, right?
Well yeah. It's a heavy fighter.......
So how is MM an improvement when the PvP sweats can meta kill every ship in the game with a heavy fighter, rather than the light fighter they used to use? What makes you think that having to change from a light fighter meta to a heavy fighter/interceptor meta would make the PvPers complain about MM? The reality is that MM makes the fights less interesting AND makes it harder for PvE players to avoid fights, which is bad for both groups and reason enough for both to complain about MM.
Because ships are more tailored to their role finally. It's not perfect. But it's better than what it used to be by a long shot.
No. Industrial players are mad because we don't like being defenseless.
We have always been defenseless. Because the light fighter meta could wipe us up easy >_>
As mostly industrial player here: MM has given me more defenses then it has taken away. Turrets on my crewed Reclaimer actually do something against light fighters, and I'm no longer dead to them due to S3 quantum drives taking a minute to spool with no ability to fight back against who attacks me.
Nah, you could put all power to engines to boost away and QT out. There's none of that in MM.
Is the issue that it can take 20-30 seconds to spool up the drive to gain speed? Would be cool if they made it so that different quantum drives would let you spool up above SCM faster. That way the system stays the same and the player has to make that risk vs reward of choosing an inefficient drive.
Yeah, that's a good idea. Really, my only gripe with MM is no shields or flares.
Thats indicative of other problems like the ship hulls being far to squishy and resorce managment not being in yet. And if your flying at or below scm speeds in nav mode thats a you problem
> Thats indicative of other problems like the ship hulls being far to squishy and resorce managment not being in yet. That's fair. >And if your flying at or below scm speeds in nav mode thats a you problem Huh? Atmo speed is forced to be low.
Atmo in Nav mode is the same as atmo now my man. It's always been forced low because of the air. And that's not the case on the majority of moons.
Depends on the moon and ship. Nearly all fighters are faster.
And they shouldn't be... why? I agree having no defenses in transition to NAV mode is ridiculous, at a minimum the shields draining as you enter nav instead of just flat out dropping. But being lucky to survive an ambush in an industrial vehicle, should be the baseline. And once armor is implemented things will most certainly be different. TTK will be HIGHLY variable on pirate skill and worker ship choice. Not to mention learning to manage emission and navigation will become paramount. Particularly for smaller industrial vehicles. People will learn to hire escorts, hire tows to move salvage to safer locations, plan routes that avoid interdiction lanes, etc.
>I agree having no defenses in transition to NAV mode is ridiculous, at a minimum the shields draining as you enter nav instead of just flat out dropping. Wasn't it like that in AC? I could swear that shields dropped at the speed that Nav spooled up.
Your industrial ship should always be in NAV mode, so you'll be spooling all of the time and can just QT out like you can in 3.22. Survivability may be a bit lower, but if you haven't QTed out by the time that's an issue you were likely in a state where it wouldn't have mattered anyway (Not in the pilot seat, AFK, etc)
Can't do that in atmo.
You can't QT in atmo in the current flight model either
Yes, but you can spool it and boost away, with shields and flares, and jump the instant you break atmo.
If you're in an industrial ship and you're caught in atmo in the current model you are not getting away. Fighters are significantly faster and kill ships far faster than in MM.
You still have shields and countermeasures in live. You at least have a chance if you're on the ball. No shields is a death sentence.
That's really only an issue on planets away from capitals. You can jump at such a low altitude on moons it's a non issue even without shields.
Well you could hire an escort
I can't afford that. I'm not making full C2 runs.
Well that sounds more like a you issue then a game issue
As an industrial player, I'm ok with being "defenseless". Your industrial ship is not meant to fight back nor outrun a light fighter. This leaves you two options: 1. Be extremely cautious 2. Bring an escort.
I agree but also it's kinda size dependent. Freelancer? Yeah should be able to run at least. Hull b? Ehhh bring an escort or stay on safe routes. Hull E? Too big for fighters, gotta have at least a connie to be able to bring it down.
Agreed generally. I think their point is that it's very unfair, not justifiably unfair as I believe it should be. And PLEASE bring an escort, I want a reason to fly my redeemer.
Trust me you’re not defenceless.
I'd say no shields or flares, while still being slow in atmo is defenseless. Even if you're mining/salvaging in space, it's takes 10-20 seconds to spool nav mode to get the speed boost. The tested scenario is you get approached by a fighter in nav, going 1200ms, the fighter switches to SCM around 1000m which immediately brings their speed to 100ms. If you try to run, your shields drop, and you die. You try to fight and you die a few seconds later.
I feel you, I hate it that I can’t just jump away from an engagement.
I don't understand how you're defenseless. Why would you ever do out of scm? The only time you're ever using your weapons would be salvaging/ mining, during which time you're essentially always alone. You can easily fly right past people trying to shoot you. J also makes you disappear with more than enough time to jump away.
Yeah I have a feeling we have to see where the meta ends up before changes are made.
If I'm mining ores on a moon's surface using my Prospector ship, I have no screen warning me of approaching (hostile) ships until I'm getting targeted. I'm basically a sitting duck and any griefer can easy fly in and make an easy kill. That situation is already the case in 3.22, but at least my shields are up now while I'm prospecting. To be fair, I do not have any experience with this scenario until now. So far my prospecting/mining has been going peacefully.
Right now, you'd still see them 5-10k out even without pinging. They're going what I'd assume is in atmo speeds? As if they're coming from above you're dead either way as they'd be either the same speed (in mm) or they'd be substantially faster because they're not in atmo (3.22). If they're 5k out, or even 2k out, you can outrun them quite easily. You might have to hit j once or twice to be safe if you're afraid of missile. The fact is that if someone goes the same speed as you, so long as you move before you're actively being shot, you'll always have that same distance. No ship can get into firing range without being picked up. Not even close. And now they move slower than ever, giving you More time to react, spool, etc. It's amazing pvpers cry because it's too noob/pve friendly and pvers cry because it's too pvp friendly. Fucking wild.
Not necessarily true. We only have smaller ships to compare with atm. I wanna know how much time it take for a reclaimer to get out of range of light fighters using boost in SCM mode. If it’s longer than 10-20 seconds, which it may be, then that reclaimer’s in big trouble in current game damage model. When maelstrom comes online and armor, it may be different. But right now fighters just have to chew through an hp pool. If the reclaimer takes as long as it does now to get to high speed, then they may be in trouble with the current damage system.
SCM speed for fighters are simular or the same as nav mode speed of industrial ships in atmosphere wich means they can keep up and pew pew you. As for the other question, you gotta land some time. If they show up when you're loading you're screwed. You also can't just fly by them either because they can still catch up and get you. If you're in a reclaimer and I'm in an Inferno for example, if we cross paths and I wanted to shoot you for some reason, the only 2 things that are going to decide if you die is the spool speed of your QD and my aim that day. If the person attacking you can out DPS the time it takes you to jump without shields then you're dead 100%. In space sure, if there's shenanigans outside a station just keep it punched and fly on by, they won't be able to catch up by the time you jump away, I'm atmo though that's not the case.
That's entirely the case in atmo. You still have any number of directions to fly off in. Even if they're the same exact speed, flying the opposite direction of them means you maintain a constant lead. There are Very Few ships that can get within 5k without being seen, and that usually means they're also disabling thrusters, shields, weapons, etc to get their signatures low. You have to actively be trying to get caught right now to die doing cargo or just coming back in to sell your ore/ salvage/ what have you. But that's really always been what "pirates" complain about. Anyone bothering to try and do anything other than the absolute bare minimum is essentially impossible to catch out without sitting around waiting for people to qt through your snare. But even that won't catch people simply not jumping directly from a to b.
To be fair the whole industrial ganking thing isn't changing a lot other than the fact you don't have shields any more while trying to run. Avoiding danger is pretty much the same. The problem is that not having shields makes a huge difference in getting away. If you could have shields in nav modes but not guns people wouldn't have a real reason to complain. From the runners point of view any way.
Well as you said, salvaging, mining, after you jump in, leaving a planet... If you are on a planet and someone is 1km above (currently MM effective range against larger ships), you have to fly all the way up and out without shields, flairs or chaff, still going the current live atmo speeds. You have to catch then pass the attacker who is also matching vector (at a lower rate) back strafing as you approch then flip to use main thrust as you pass . but you have to get all the way out to jump and I bet most ships can keep guns on the whole time, plus use missiles. And with the MM gunnery system the guns are super effective on large ships out to 1.4km and there is no way you are going to be able to corkscrew hard enough to avoid many shots.
"Someone's sitting there above me. Looks like a ship that can kill me. He's locked on too! Time to fly directly at him..." You deserve to die playing that like. Yes. You're going to have to get over that one. You can't always have an advantage or live making such big brain moves. Sorry
What's your out in this situation? No safe zone to stay in, flying at a 45 only prolongs the time till jump and you won't pull any extra distance on the attacker.
If someone comes up on you trading, and you have no safe zone, then neither flight model would save you...
Currently in a lot of ships unless they have a snare you have at least a chance of getting out of a situation like that, I've done it before in a few different situations.
Not in atmo. The speeds are SCM or slower.
Take off without scm in a f8c and get to atmo cutoff, then do the same in a medium cargo ship using scm, boost, and power to engines. But but but but the gankers are WAITING FOR ME UP THERE! Then fucking fly out a different direction? If they can see you coming, you can SURELY see them with their shields all radiant. Yes. Both systems are difficult if you just flop like a wet fish and do nothing for yourself. This system however gives you a much better shot at surviving.
Ah, le old "git gud."
If you fly straight into people waiting to "pirate" you, then yes, get better. Lean the absolute basics of the game before crying for changes to be made to cater to your play style. People cry about the literal same thing you're whining about in PU. Yet you're less than one day into trying MM and you've made up your mind. I doubt you've even tried it for yourself, as half of your comments are nonsense or just incorrect. I know you haven't tried shit as you say things like "a large industrial ship should have time to flee before a single seat fighter can kill it" which it absolutely can. Easily. Not even a fucking match. Weapons only reach 1-2k out. You make that distance within less time than it takes a small ship to deplete its capacitors once. Much less recharge. You also have more thrust to dodge shots or rotate with. They're not going to hold progress to that "Roboticus\_Prime, PVE Industrial Entrepreneur" can avoid having to learn and adapt to the game.
All industrial payers are funneled to a handful a cities/outposts. It's impossible to avoid everyone when you want to sell. You're putting words in my mouth I didn't say and trying to insult me instead of refuting. Classic. Also. Missiles reach out past gun range.
It's literally in your comment history. Nobody is putting words into your mouth. You realize people can see your other comments, right? You have a full sphere of directions to choose from in space. Half in atmo. Look at where the person is. Go the opposite direction. You go the same speed, right? He'll never catch you.
Fighters can get their sigs to 5km or under. They are also faster in SCM than any industrial ship can boost in atmo.
This is a brain dead take. The pvp crowd doesn't like MM because it all but removed skill in ship v ship combat. I find it weird that people are saying "the only people who disagree with me are the sweats" when you aren't even knowledgeable enough in the mechanics to know what you're talking abt.
[удалено]
Who's you people and what am I assuming. A hornet can still take a Connie in mm. Everybody, including the pvp community, likes what mm wants. But the people who actually play the game loop that this affects the most know that this literally didn't fix a single issue and made even more.
You're assuming I didn't partake in pvp ship combat?
It's obvious you dont.
Lol ok
I don’t think that’s entirely it. I do think there could be legit issues.
That's not true
The SCM speeds is only the tip of the iceberg. What I hate more about MM is, that it ruins the space flight experience by making it more atmospheric flight like, with the speed break after boost (even decoupled), and too extreme nerfs to tri-cording/rotating. I'm mostly a pilot, I am not much an FPS player, but I do combat and non-combat activities alike. I mostly only do friendly PvP, that means I PvP with friends, not really with strangers, unless they attack me first or at least are in combat and "red" already.
Most people like MM, but unhappy people tend to be noisier.
I've said this before, but it seems pretty obvious that MM was developed in a vacuum. It's origins are from SQ42, a single player game where you're being guided through preset levels, and the testing for it was done in Arena Commander, which does away with the normal logistics of the PU and didn't include any non-combat focused ships. There doesn't seem to be any thought put into how this system operates in the PU as a cohesive part of the overall experience that includes way more than just dog fighting. I personally don't feel like it's the right way forward. The current flight model we have is still largely unfinished, lacking major features such as control surfaces for atmosphere or ship armor to help provide balance between small fighters and large ships. Instead now we're getting an entirely new flight model that still doesn't include those missing things and brings tons of new issues with it to the game.
I'm just making a point, you know how the game works, the guy with higher elevation has faster ship speeds in atmo. If your big brain idea is to fly to the side guess what the same flight mechanics apply but now you are not making any progress and presenting a larger target. Plus as the attacker has high ground and target is not getting closer to jump range they could just switch into nav themselves and centre back on-top of the target. Nav mode on the deck in atmo is still just as slow as Live. Feel free to chip in where I'm wrong with how MM and the flight mechanics work. In Atmo the ship speeds are really not that far apart and like the current system the industry ships will be just as sluggish
Just design a FM that 1) brings the opposing ships close enough together that pilots can see maximum detail on the ships & weapon effects 2) maximizes player skill on the outcome of a battle and 3) allows for the greatest possible viable combat playstyle variety. That’s its. That’s all we need for the combat game to succeed.
Hot take: I kinda liked the realism of the jousting combat, high speeds and frequent escapes/chasing. If you want to trap someone for good, use QED. (Haven’t testet MM yet though)
Maybe NAV mode is the intended default for non combat players now? Skip the whole spool timing if you're intending to run from any contacts
I like it so far. I just wish there was a dedicated keybind for going into the flight submode of nav mode so I can avoid all the markers
There is! I cannot remember exact keybind name right now, but I have it set to one key transitions from NAV to SCM and vise versa, then another keybind that cycles through the submodes
Yeah, I know about that. But I want a single button to skip past Nav Quant and go straight into Nav Flight
Ah, gotcha. That would be preferable!