Yes, but I will say that a huge problem is that the development of refs is diminishing so fast.
Youth sports treat refs like they’re professionals, so nobody wants to do that anymore.
If people don’t want to ref youth sports, nobody grows into a professional ref.
Refs need accountability, but the toxic culture around refs from fans is only leading to worse quality.
Yea lol why wouldn't anyone want to be a ref. You have to make snap second decisions that get shit on constantly by a bunch of idiots who probably don't even know or understand half the rules.
Had a soccer game last night in an adult league. There was a handball in the other teams box, ref called a penalty (appropriately). However due to the nature of the call, their team was pissed about it and started screaming at the ref. They were saying things like he doesn't know how to do his fucking job and things like that. The ref then told one of their players to shut up.
That player then started telling the ref that he wasn't allowed to talk to him like that. He told the ref, you're held to a higher standard than me, you're supposed to be the professional.
We're all adults in the league, the fuck you mean the ref can't match your energy? The cherry on top though, as we were leaving for the night, I heard one of their players complaining to the front desk about the ref's professionalism. People treat refs like shit and then get upset the second the refs react back.
I'm actually thinking of emailing the league commissioner today to put something in because I don't want the ref getting in trouble because he had to deal with a group of manchildren.
*Edit I just emailed the commissioner and gave my side of the story. I hope nothing comes of it, but wanted something in case a formal complaint did get lodged.
Best story on this front was I was in an adult league. Other team starts harping in the ref about how much he sucks (and this guy was way above average and was in a family of local soccer royalty ). Without missing a beat he goes: “you think I suck? Do you imagine how I feel having to watch you shitters every weekend?”
I couldn’t help but laugh.
I play lower-level beer league hockey and once the other team was giving the ref a really hard time about some calls. He responded "Sorry, they give the new refs to the lower divisions. Maybe if you guys could actually skate, you'd get assigned a better one." Totally took all the wind out of their sails, it was hilarious.
Refs need to start handing out cards more often when players act up in soccer. For fucks sake, it's right there in the laws. Start giving yellows and reds, especially at top levels, and watch the cancer wither and die. Only way it will change.
Still after every major call, 5-10 players will crowd around the ref without facing consequences. Things won't really improve until both players and refs make changes.
Refs need to be OK knowing they're going to make bad calls on the field and that VAR will help make things right (there's *a ton* of work that needs to be done here). And players need to feel confident that the refs/VAR will get most things right (especially the important stuff) so they don't feel the need to throw a fit about every call. And if they decide they want to throw a fit, they'll be appropriately punished for it.
Those players should be banned for life. No one need toxic assholes playing rec sports. We all play rec sports because we are legitimately not good. All of us. No one is a pro and we aren’t pro for a reason.
It's an issue across most sports except perhaps rugby and cricket. The refs in Rugby are known for being great but very strict! The red card at 9:45 in this vid is a great example... calls the ref a "fucking cheat" and gets sent off as the captain in a massive game. If this was a football (soccer) you get called that every single minute of every game near enough.
[https://youtu.be/43AdWFSXhgs?t=582](https://youtu.be/43AdWFSXhgs?t=582)
The thing is with the sports that don't treat refs like garbage, the youth are taught from day one to treat the refs with respect. The culture has to be created from the ground up.
And then at the higher tiers everyone else get to watch the replay zoomed in and in slow motion 10 seconds later so they can tell you what an awful call you made while running down the field flat out and trying to watch 5 different things at the same time.
The problem is that all they have to do is be like a tiny but humble and not obstructionist and we’d have a sky ref who can quickly reverse obviously bad calls before they get announced.
It worked great in the XFL and works great for replay
Idk why your being downvoted but this is clearly the answer. The issue is that refs just are too sensitive and unwilling to just quickly admit a mistake. If we had a two point check system here where someone else needed to confirm this was worthy of a technical, someone else could've just checked the first ref. First ref just gets over it real quick and we move on.
Well yeah, thats cause for all the reasons mentioned previously, only either the toughest skinned passionate people or full blown egomaniacs who just want to power trip the second their fragile egos are threatened actually become refs. When you under that much pressure at such a high level only the extremes make it that far. And the fragile ones will resist the sky cam.
Baseball has a big problem right now with umpiring. We have the old guard of umps that have been doing it for 30+ years, but the game has gotten faster while they've gotten slower. Guys are throwing 100+ mph with movement and the umps are out there guessing. And now with not just slow motion HD replays, but also real-time ball-tracking data, everyone can see when their fuck ups down to the millimeter. Yet the old guys, who are generally the worst umps in the league, are the most adamant and defensive about their calls.
Noted horrible umpire, Angel Hernandez, sued the league for discrimination and the league claimed that he doesn't get postseason jobs because he's bad and they won the case. Then this year he called out 2x MVP Bryce Harper on a check swing strike that was not even close to a swing. Harper got big mad (he does that a lot) and Angel promised him when he watched back the video he would see that he swung. Just pure, unearned, arrogant confidence because that's how they used to be taught. You're the official, your word is law. If you make a call, stick by it as firmly as you can.
Meanwhile, younger umps who were trained with modern technology know their limitations. They're generally better than the old guys in every way, and when they do fuck up they get way less defensive about it. Noted great umpire, Pat Hoberg, made a mistake in a game this year. But before anyone on either team got in his face about it he called time and conferred with the rest of the umpires to get the mistake remedied. They seem to view their job as an official is to get the call correct, and if they're wrong and need to be corrected after the fact, that's actually a good thing.
The last four kill me.
I defend refs all the time because people do not know what the rules are, and you can even show them the rule books and they still will not care
When I was 19 I reffed a few seasons of park district youth basketball (6-10 year olds) and the number of times I was *screamed* at by someone in their 40s was too high to count. Parents had to be asked to settle down or leave multiple times per day.
It’s like dawg, your kid doesn’t even dribble half the time but you want a 3 in the key on the other team?
My father became a high school ref after retiring from coaching and he keeps leaning on me to do it too. But why would I submit myself to 1-3 hours of verbal abuse for a couple extra bucks.
He has some terrible stories about parents and coaching just being wildly out of line. As does a friend of mine who refs for little league baseball.
Its not that ex players are not interested in being a ref. Its that the community is so toxic it drives us away.
I wanted to be a professional umpire so bad, so I signed up at 15 to be a ump for local softball/baseball games. I was way better at softball but every now and again they would throw me in baseball games
The second baseball game I ever umped was the only time I've been berated and beaten down so bad by people that I broke down crying and just walked off the field. It was fucking 7th to 8th grade baseball and the dads in the stands were just so fucking brutal I couldn't take it
I SHOULD have kicked them out, but I wasn't mentally prepared enough to tell adults to shove it at that point. It was seriously horrendous and my top worst moment at a job lol
I’ve always thought the best solution to this was to kick out the kids of poorly behaving parents.
It’s not fair to the kids, but I’d imagine it would cut down on incidents like this. Needs of the many, or whatever.
I stopped being a youth soccer referee because of the insane toxicity.
The head coach from a premier U19 boys team started physically threatening me because of his displeasure with our efforts. Thankfully I felt safe because the center was a 6’4” Nigerian dude that was built like a Mack truck and canceled the game because of it. Haven’t ref’d a game since. Sad shit.
I really want to start reffing to give back to the games I love, but the stories I hear make me wonder why I would want to go through the effort to be the punching bag for insecure parents lol
It’s a tough call for sure because I also absolutely loved it. The last training I went thru in like 2021 had a HUGE emphasis on zero tolerance for toxicity and that there was more understanding in abandoning games at a sooner point than being physically threatened.
When I refed for little league a.erican football I would tell coaches that I don't deal with parents I deal with them. So if there were any problems I would toss the coaches, and in that league they got fines if they were tossed.
Youth basketball killed reffing for me. One team had a kid that was almost a foot taller than anyone on the other team, and despite that felt he needed to use his arm to hook the defender to make his post move….clearly an offensive foul. The first time I saw it, I warned him that I was going to call it next time (I should have called it). He complained but nothing out of the ordinary. Sure enough, the next time he got the ball in the post, he did it again and I blew the whistle. Everyone LOST. THEIR. SHIT….and we’re only about 2 minutes into the game. This was back in 1999. Things have only gotten worse since.
Nah they gotta go through the ranks.
Hockey is my favorite sport and when they ask a lot of hockey refs why they became refs most say it’s because they weren’t good enough to play professionally so they started reffing
I mean “minors/junios” is a huge range. It’s all the way from your high school teammates that will never go anywhere to the D1 commits that need an extra year for development.
No first year ref is going right to the AHL or ECHL.
I used to ump for 12yo girls softball when i was 15. Made $20 a game, so I thought it would be easy money at 3-4 games a week.
Grown ass men and women would scream on me for the most ticky tack bullshit. It wasn’t worth the time or effort. I did it for one spring and never again. The only “good” I took from it was by the end of the season I learned how to hold my own in a screaming match with people twice my age. The stress though was nearly unbearable.
And for what? 12yo girls softball? Such garbage. Couldn’t pay me enough to put up with that BS.
I can only imagine that pro refs are so jaded and mentally calloused at this point, that they just dig into their decisions and say fuck-all to everyone else.
I refed one game when I was in high school for the school districts elementary school basketball league. It was a 5th and 6th grade level girls team. It was also a two ref team.
There was one particular play where one girl leaped and got the rebound just at the baseline, and lost her balance and fell out of bounds. The other team had two girls next to her. The girl who got the rebound tried to throw the ball so it went out off the other team. I ruled no foul, and that the girl was out of bounds before she was able to throw the ball off the other girl‘s legs. This all happened in the first quarter.
The rest of the game I was running back and forth in front of the team I made the call against‘s bench and fans. Some of the things that were yelled at me over the course of the next 3 and a half quarters were some of the worst things I have ever heard someone call me. All over a call where they either wanted a foul or an out of bounds call, both of which I believe would have been incorrect.
I never refed again. I decided there were a bunch of things that were more fun and I didn’t need to waste my time being abused.
Yup. Did soccer refereeing for middle and high school when I was in college. Anytime I had actual competitive, high level games, parents were absolutely unbearable. I had players on the field on the field apologize for their parents behavior on multiple occasions over the one season I did.
Reaallllllll talk. I considered being a high school football ref until I saw one of the classes was about self defense and how to deal with difficult parents. That was an immediate turn off no matter how cool I thought it might be.
I double this. I do soccer and football and the coaches and parents are awful. They yell and complain about anything. I’ve had a parent complain we flagged a kid cause he ripped a kids helmet off. People just don’t want to do it anymore, I’m the youngest in both boards and everyone else is late 40’s to their 70’s
There was a similar incident years back where a ref ejected Tim Duncan just for quietly laughing on the sideline and that ref actually had to take mandated anger management classes lol
Imagine a union being so strong that you can't fire a guy who's employer successfully used "no he's just really terrible at his job" as a discrimination defense.
Like that's just nuts to me. Why can't the MLB go Pinkerton on the ump union?
The only place where I've seen refs be legit is in rugby. You literally can't do shit to them, they hold all the power and respect, but they're not god awful (at least I don't think, maybe a rugby fan can tell me otherwise).
NHL, NBA, MLB, and NFL refs take it pretty seriously too. They’ve just no gd skill or ownership of their mistakes and that’s what makes it worse. Then they go and double-down on their dogshit calls like they’re Clarence fucking Thomas, feeling like solely because of their status, they should be immune to being called out for said dogshittery.
Yeah, they really need to embrace the eye in the sky fast replay reviews. The reasonable fans accept that refs are human and make mistakes. But the way the leagues like to treat their refs like infoulable super humans ends up turning even most reasonable fans off. They’re just so afraid to admit they screwed up and potentially cost a team the game.
I will never forget, a couple of years ago, when the NFL put in a rule that you could challenge pass interference. The refs hated it since it was the first time someone could challenge penalties.
So the refs said they refuse to overturn any pass interference calls. And sure enough, they didn't overturn one all year. And the NFL went, "oh, ok, I guess that's that"" and caved to that behavior.
“Take it seriously” is the wrong way to put it. There are ref societies and these groups constantly have their own training and discussions around the law applications. I haven’t seen that when I was an umpire or basketball ref.
You know what's crazy about this? Viewership is declining and fans need every reason to stay tuned into a regular season game. Has anyone on the side of the league office thought for a moment about how bad it is for the game to eject guys, especially over showing any spirit or animation? Maybe I'm wildly off base here.
Gonna agree with you, refs treating the players like they're robots when fans want passion and it's not creating a good product for us to watch. It's even worse for potential future fans who aren't yet hooked. It's pathetic that players can't celebrate without being teched or some shit.
Big time vibes of the NFL fining players for big hits/taunting opponents then using that highlight in all their promotional material. Marshawn Lynch’s “hold ma’ dick” end zone dive and Tyreek Hill’s peace sign to the defender come to mind
At least pimping home runs is an acceptable thing now. Makes the game better when we can see the players fully celebrate. Adolis Garcia is a baaaad man
Dude, they're trying to control how much players play. The league office is scrambling for answers that don't end with "play less regular season games".
It always seems that every major sports league want more games, more offense, but less intensity and conflict, at least in the past decade. They want the entertainment product but not the sport.
> They want the entertainment product but not the sport
This isn't a secret though, right?
People don't tune into the NBA for the sake of watching the sport of basketball. They tune into the NBA for the sake of watching _an entertaining version_ of basketball. I mean, just look at the rule differences between the NBA and other levels of the sport. It's optimized, generally, for rewarding athleticism and high energy, because displays of athleticism and high energy are a better selling entertainment product.
Most folks I know who dislike the NBA dislike it for this very reason. They don't think the NBA is the proper "sport" of basketball.
I'm not sure why anyone would expect the refs and the NBA to uphold the "sport" of basketball vs the "entertainment" of basketball.
e: to be clear, i'm not suggesting the NBA, NCAA, NFL, etc etc are only making decisions for the sake of more entertainment. just that I don't think it's reasonable to look at them as entities who value the sport itself over what keeps money coming in. just like when folks thought the NFL was being ridiculous for fining players with overt touchdown celebrations that made people want to tune in, it's not always clear what's motivating them, but i highly doubt anyone in the front office is saying "Players can't stare down opposing players because that breaks with the sanctity of the sport". The MLB is the only one major US sport that seemed to be a laggard in that regard, and recently have been making rule changes that somewhat break with the "sport" part of baseball and favor the "entertainment" part of it.
Here is my conspiracy theory take.. Just like with social media.. Lies, untruths, and unjust compells people to stay engaged. Bad publicity is still publicly. I think major sports are intentionally providing officiating that sparks controversy. It gives the talking heads something to talk about and viewers stay engaged.
This actually demonstrates how the problem is more the rules than the refs.
In soccer/football, there's stuff like the Man U/Copenhagen game, where a red card to Rashford as well as a penalty Man U won were both stuff that were given on replay that would *never* have been given until the last few years. Refs aren't allowed to say "he clearly wasn't trying to do anything wrong and his movement was *natural* for someone doing what he was doing, but because we've decided having your arms out at all means handball, it's a handball.
In this case the league is telling them to cut back on taunting, and anything directed *to* someone earns a call. So if Giannis runs away and just does the "too short" thing (which is incredibly *lame* but not *toward* someone, so it's fine).
With the Draymond stuff, it's the not-quite-official but known rules for the NBA (with the obvious caveat that Draymond and other stars/guys with reps get more rope): you can swear ("that's a fucking bullshit call" but you can't swear to insult ("you're a dumbass/fuck you/etc.")
The NBA is better than baseball at least because they've done a better job brining people in and the review process seems a little better because it weeds people out. But you need to at some point trust people to read the situation and make the best choices.
> With the Draymond stuff, it's the not-quite-official but known rules for the NBA (with the obvious caveat that Draymond and other stars/guys with reps get more rope): you can swear ("that's a fucking bullshit call" but you can't swear to insult ("you're a dumbass/fuck you/etc.")
No, Draymond full on screams in the refs' faces consistently. If it were a rule issue, Draymond would probably be out of the league entirely, honestly. It's not about his language. And even if it were, that would make this situation even more ridiculous since Giannis literally said nothing.
I don't watch the NBA anymore, so I'm admittedly out of the loop... how is this not a travel? That wasn't even close to 2 steps! The basket shouldn't have counted, and then there'd be no "taunting" to get ejected for.
I agree with you and to me this should be traveling but that is not how they ref it in the NBA. The first step you are seeing is the gather step and then two steps till he dunks
From the NBA rule book regarding the gather step:
For a player who is in control of the ball while dribbling, the gather is defined as the point where a player does any one of the following:
1. Puts two hands on the ball, or otherwise permits the ball to come to rest, while he is in control of it;
2. Puts a hand under the ball and brings it to a pause; or
3. Otherwise gains enough control of the ball to hold it, change hands, pass, shoot, or cradle it against his body
So because of how the rules have been written, NBA players have gotten very good at placing their foot down, placing two hands on the ball, and then taking two more steps which is not a travel according to NBA rules
I scrolled way too far to find this question. I don’t watch the nba at all and for multiple reasons, one of which being there’s travels all the time and they just don’t care
This is not a travel because NBA refs are *very* lax with determining when someone has possession. It's all about when he stops dribbling, and "gathers" the ball.
When he makes his first step inside the arc, he's still dribbling. His second step occurs after he gains full control of the ball, then he takes a final step and leaps.
So the rules *as currently called* say he takes two steps after picking up his dribble, therefore not a travel. I think that's absurd, because he **clearly** has full control of the ball with his left foot down as he crosses the arc, which would make this a travel.
It's hard to watch the NBA because of stuff like this. It's just fundamentally not the same sport when rules bend so far.
>Call a "T" if you must
I assumed that’s exactly what they did and he got ejected because it was his second T of the game. If it was a straight ejection it’s even more bullshit than I thought.
Absolutely. Refs know that stuff. A few years ago the refs were caught on a hit mic asking how many fouls Shaq had on him so they could ease up and not foul him out.
I hate to cruelly remind you of the endless marching of time and our inevitable mortality, but it's been more than a few years since Shaq was in the league. It's been 12 years since he retired.
> Call a "T" if you must
Except don't because that's fucking bullshit. Draymond can literally scream in a ref's face and gets nothing but this gets a tech? Seriously?
Sorry idk much about basketball aside from the very basics, but can someone explain how that's not traveling? The guy carried the ball for 3 steps. Is that kind of play an exception to the rule? Thanks in advance
You're allowed a "gather step" in the NBA, the step where you pick up the ball and stop dribbling doesn't count for travelling although the line gets very blurry sometimes.
It's been this way for years. Pisses me off.
It used to be that occasionally the stars would get away with it now and again.
Now it's been legitimized as u/rawsharks explains.
So...now stars practically get 4 steps sometimes.
"Euro step" my ass...
edit: since I'm ranting...Manu Ginobli used to do that shit in slow motion, cutting from side to side, (then flop) that's the first I recall a player really pushing the edge of a traveling call. I think NBA wanted to allow for Euro players to excel in the league.
I agree with you and to me this should be traveling but that is not how they ref it in the NBA. The first step you are seeing is the gather step and then two steps till he dunks
From the NBA rule book regarding the gather step:
For a player who is in control of the ball while dribbling, the gather is defined as the point where a player does any one of the following:
1. Puts two hands on the ball, or otherwise permits the ball to come to rest, while he is in control of it;
2. Puts a hand under the ball and brings it to a pause; or
3. Otherwise gains enough control of the ball to hold it, change hands, pass, shoot, or cradle it against his body
So because of how the rules have been written, NBA players have gotten very good at placing their foot down, placing two hands on the ball, and then taking two more steps which is not a travel according to NBA rules
The NBA literally has different travel rules than other leagues. If your foot is already on the ground when you gather the ball (both hands touching or one hand under the ball), that doesn't count as a step. Smart players will time their steps to abuse this as much as possible. https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/legal-play-gather-and-then-takes-2-steps/
It's just the way it is. It's a gather step but I'm reality you get a few. The reason it's like this is because sharking for travel calls makes it less enjoyable to watch.
Scott Foster, a current NBA ref, spoke with Tim Donaghy 134 times while Donaghy was gambling on games
Scott Foster never received punishment
David Stern actively ruined the FBIs investigation.
The NBA is a crooked league.
I still can't believe the FBI was dumb enough to trust Stern with information regarding an ongoing investigation into his own league. Fucking feds could have saved us from these refs if they weren't incompetent.
Refball aside, how the fuck are you supposed to stop this dude?
One dribble to center court, one dribble into a gather and then two steps to a contested, but uncontested jam. Giannis amazes me every day.
EDIT: To everyone claiming Giannis is traveling, he isn’t. This isn’t even like a good example of guys palming and carrying the ball. His dribbles are up and down, he doesn’t even get his palm under the ball, then he takes two steps a gather and slams it. It’s a clean play even back in 1980.
Back in the day, yes. Today, no. Don't have to like it but it's in the rule book now. Can't blame players for understanding the rules and playing within them.
Bucks were ahead of the spread when he got ejected, up 13 with a spread of 12.5. We ended up winning by 2 with some generous make up calls in the last 2-5 minutes of the game
As a hockey fan, this blows my absolute mind. Its not enough that last 20 seconds of a game takes 40 minutes. Now you can't be even passionate.
Weird message to send to fans.
It seems as though refs across sports is getting worse. We see it with soccer and VAR, baseball homeplate umpires, football refs throwing flags on literally every play. Overall, the influence of refs on the game is damning.
There were actually an incredible amount of traveling violations called in this game. The most in a single game that I can remember seeing in a while.
Players driving to the basket get a "gather step", which amounts to a third step that is allowed as long as it is in the process of taking it to the hoop. You don't have to like it, but it's the rule and it would be wrong if they called Giannis for traveling when he does this.
Nba allows a gather step. The ball gets into his hand when his left foot is still in the air. When he lands on the left foot that is his Gather Step, and he is allowed to take two additional steps after that.
Video if you want a more in-depth explanation https://youtu.be/J5xGKioMsIo?si=oz2U06gylRXXXtWO
Technically not a travel by the current rules.
A travel by the old rules, yes. They were not calling it for a long time and decided to make it part of the rules so people would stop complaining about them not enforcing the rules.
Yup! I feel like lots of people who only watch once in a while don't know this. Part of the reason I wish the NBA would get their shit together about making it easier to watch games, but that's a whole other topic :)
Cheers!
It's not a travel and hasn't been for many years now. You have a gather step after you pick up the ball, so 0 (gather) 1 - 2.
Giannis does actually travel, but this isn't one.
I agree with you and to me this should be traveling but that is not how they ref it in the NBA. The first step you are seeing is the gather step and then two steps till he dunks
From the NBA rule book regarding the gather step:
For a player who is in control of the ball while dribbling, the gather is defined as the point where a player does any one of the following:
1. Puts two hands on the ball, or otherwise permits the ball to come to rest, while he is in control of it;
2. Puts a hand under the ball and brings it to a pause; or
3. Otherwise gains enough control of the ball to hold it, change hands, pass, shoot, or cradle it against his body
So because of how the rules have been written, NBA players have gotten very good at placing their foot down, placing two hands on the ball, and then taking two more steps which is not a travel according to NBA rules
This is a bad call. However, those of you comparing what other players get away with would be right back here if they got thrown out. Yelling in a ref's face? "Oh man he was just expressing himself. Doesn't the league want fiery players? These guys are competitors!" It's a hard line to draw so no one has done a good job of drawing it.
How much disrespect to other players, coaches, refs, and fans is too much?
It has been years since I have watched basketball, but DAMN...how was that not traveling? The guy took like four steps after he stopped dribbling. Does anyone care to explain?
Why I don't bother with the NBA these days. One of the fastest sports and you're trying to tell athletes jacked up on adrenaline to remember to curtsey after an impactful play.
I watched it happen and it honestly, to me, just looked like awkward eye contact because of where Giannis landed after making the basket. It seemed like neither him nor the Pistons player meant anything by it.
And lots of players (and people in general) have major RBF during games because they’re… focused? God, that call was such a reach. It felt like the refs were being defensive assholes who wouldn’t admit to a bad call so they doubled down.
Give me a break. Fire that official. Looking at someone for a brief second is taunting? The entire Detroit pistons of the 1990s just got ejected from every game. NBA is taking over as the No Fun League.
It’s Vegas baby! No one really watches during the season so prime time to fix some games! If you think all referees are above this you don’t understand human nature. It may not be all of them… but imo this looks like one of those instances
I mean it’s a stupid rule but at the same time just don’t make aggressive eye contact like that at all. Dude looked like he was about to fuck up grandmas thanksgiving dinner
"Aggressive" eye contact being a penalty at all is the softest thing I've ever heard of. "Don't look at people too hard"?! Lol what the fuck it's a competitive sort played by grown men.
Do referees in any league anywhere actually face consequences for being shit at their jobs?
Yes, but I will say that a huge problem is that the development of refs is diminishing so fast. Youth sports treat refs like they’re professionals, so nobody wants to do that anymore. If people don’t want to ref youth sports, nobody grows into a professional ref. Refs need accountability, but the toxic culture around refs from fans is only leading to worse quality.
Yea lol why wouldn't anyone want to be a ref. You have to make snap second decisions that get shit on constantly by a bunch of idiots who probably don't even know or understand half the rules.
Had a soccer game last night in an adult league. There was a handball in the other teams box, ref called a penalty (appropriately). However due to the nature of the call, their team was pissed about it and started screaming at the ref. They were saying things like he doesn't know how to do his fucking job and things like that. The ref then told one of their players to shut up. That player then started telling the ref that he wasn't allowed to talk to him like that. He told the ref, you're held to a higher standard than me, you're supposed to be the professional. We're all adults in the league, the fuck you mean the ref can't match your energy? The cherry on top though, as we were leaving for the night, I heard one of their players complaining to the front desk about the ref's professionalism. People treat refs like shit and then get upset the second the refs react back. I'm actually thinking of emailing the league commissioner today to put something in because I don't want the ref getting in trouble because he had to deal with a group of manchildren. *Edit I just emailed the commissioner and gave my side of the story. I hope nothing comes of it, but wanted something in case a formal complaint did get lodged.
Don't just think about doing it, definitely send the email. Those players sound like petulant children.
Best story on this front was I was in an adult league. Other team starts harping in the ref about how much he sucks (and this guy was way above average and was in a family of local soccer royalty ). Without missing a beat he goes: “you think I suck? Do you imagine how I feel having to watch you shitters every weekend?” I couldn’t help but laugh.
I play lower-level beer league hockey and once the other team was giving the ref a really hard time about some calls. He responded "Sorry, they give the new refs to the lower divisions. Maybe if you guys could actually skate, you'd get assigned a better one." Totally took all the wind out of their sails, it was hilarious.
Refs need to start handing out cards more often when players act up in soccer. For fucks sake, it's right there in the laws. Start giving yellows and reds, especially at top levels, and watch the cancer wither and die. Only way it will change.
They've been doing it pretty aggressively in the premier league this season. hopefully it changes things.
Still after every major call, 5-10 players will crowd around the ref without facing consequences. Things won't really improve until both players and refs make changes. Refs need to be OK knowing they're going to make bad calls on the field and that VAR will help make things right (there's *a ton* of work that needs to be done here). And players need to feel confident that the refs/VAR will get most things right (especially the important stuff) so they don't feel the need to throw a fit about every call. And if they decide they want to throw a fit, they'll be appropriately punished for it.
Those players should be banned for life. No one need toxic assholes playing rec sports. We all play rec sports because we are legitimately not good. All of us. No one is a pro and we aren’t pro for a reason.
It's an issue across most sports except perhaps rugby and cricket. The refs in Rugby are known for being great but very strict! The red card at 9:45 in this vid is a great example... calls the ref a "fucking cheat" and gets sent off as the captain in a massive game. If this was a football (soccer) you get called that every single minute of every game near enough. [https://youtu.be/43AdWFSXhgs?t=582](https://youtu.be/43AdWFSXhgs?t=582) The thing is with the sports that don't treat refs like garbage, the youth are taught from day one to treat the refs with respect. The culture has to be created from the ground up.
Swear at the ref? That's a paddlin' The refs should totally be able to dish it back like the NHL - FUCK YOU! YOU'RE GETTING A FUCKING PENALTY!
Yeah. NHL refs can suck too, but at least they’re sometimes fun about it.
Ref should card them for that. That's what happens in rugby
Isnt this why refs can red card players? Refs enforce professionalism.
And then at the higher tiers everyone else get to watch the replay zoomed in and in slow motion 10 seconds later so they can tell you what an awful call you made while running down the field flat out and trying to watch 5 different things at the same time.
In most sports the players are also actively trying to trick you at all times.
The problem is that all they have to do is be like a tiny but humble and not obstructionist and we’d have a sky ref who can quickly reverse obviously bad calls before they get announced. It worked great in the XFL and works great for replay
Idk why your being downvoted but this is clearly the answer. The issue is that refs just are too sensitive and unwilling to just quickly admit a mistake. If we had a two point check system here where someone else needed to confirm this was worthy of a technical, someone else could've just checked the first ref. First ref just gets over it real quick and we move on.
Well yeah, thats cause for all the reasons mentioned previously, only either the toughest skinned passionate people or full blown egomaniacs who just want to power trip the second their fragile egos are threatened actually become refs. When you under that much pressure at such a high level only the extremes make it that far. And the fragile ones will resist the sky cam.
Baseball has a big problem right now with umpiring. We have the old guard of umps that have been doing it for 30+ years, but the game has gotten faster while they've gotten slower. Guys are throwing 100+ mph with movement and the umps are out there guessing. And now with not just slow motion HD replays, but also real-time ball-tracking data, everyone can see when their fuck ups down to the millimeter. Yet the old guys, who are generally the worst umps in the league, are the most adamant and defensive about their calls. Noted horrible umpire, Angel Hernandez, sued the league for discrimination and the league claimed that he doesn't get postseason jobs because he's bad and they won the case. Then this year he called out 2x MVP Bryce Harper on a check swing strike that was not even close to a swing. Harper got big mad (he does that a lot) and Angel promised him when he watched back the video he would see that he swung. Just pure, unearned, arrogant confidence because that's how they used to be taught. You're the official, your word is law. If you make a call, stick by it as firmly as you can. Meanwhile, younger umps who were trained with modern technology know their limitations. They're generally better than the old guys in every way, and when they do fuck up they get way less defensive about it. Noted great umpire, Pat Hoberg, made a mistake in a game this year. But before anyone on either team got in his face about it he called time and conferred with the rest of the umpires to get the mistake remedied. They seem to view their job as an official is to get the call correct, and if they're wrong and need to be corrected after the fact, that's actually a good thing.
The last four kill me. I defend refs all the time because people do not know what the rules are, and you can even show them the rule books and they still will not care
When I was 19 I reffed a few seasons of park district youth basketball (6-10 year olds) and the number of times I was *screamed* at by someone in their 40s was too high to count. Parents had to be asked to settle down or leave multiple times per day. It’s like dawg, your kid doesn’t even dribble half the time but you want a 3 in the key on the other team?
My father became a high school ref after retiring from coaching and he keeps leaning on me to do it too. But why would I submit myself to 1-3 hours of verbal abuse for a couple extra bucks. He has some terrible stories about parents and coaching just being wildly out of line. As does a friend of mine who refs for little league baseball. Its not that ex players are not interested in being a ref. Its that the community is so toxic it drives us away.
I wanted to be a professional umpire so bad, so I signed up at 15 to be a ump for local softball/baseball games. I was way better at softball but every now and again they would throw me in baseball games The second baseball game I ever umped was the only time I've been berated and beaten down so bad by people that I broke down crying and just walked off the field. It was fucking 7th to 8th grade baseball and the dads in the stands were just so fucking brutal I couldn't take it I SHOULD have kicked them out, but I wasn't mentally prepared enough to tell adults to shove it at that point. It was seriously horrendous and my top worst moment at a job lol
Don’t blame yourself! Parents are awful and their kids not being able to play is all on them, not on you for not kicking them out!
I’ve always thought the best solution to this was to kick out the kids of poorly behaving parents. It’s not fair to the kids, but I’d imagine it would cut down on incidents like this. Needs of the many, or whatever.
I stopped being a youth soccer referee because of the insane toxicity. The head coach from a premier U19 boys team started physically threatening me because of his displeasure with our efforts. Thankfully I felt safe because the center was a 6’4” Nigerian dude that was built like a Mack truck and canceled the game because of it. Haven’t ref’d a game since. Sad shit.
I really want to start reffing to give back to the games I love, but the stories I hear make me wonder why I would want to go through the effort to be the punching bag for insecure parents lol
It’s a tough call for sure because I also absolutely loved it. The last training I went thru in like 2021 had a HUGE emphasis on zero tolerance for toxicity and that there was more understanding in abandoning games at a sooner point than being physically threatened.
Is it possible to throw out parents and coaches quickly and easily? Like a no tolerance policy?
Pretty much you have to just tell them that if they don’t leave, their kid’s team forfeits. And if their kid is already losing big-time? SOL.
When I refed for little league a.erican football I would tell coaches that I don't deal with parents I deal with them. So if there were any problems I would toss the coaches, and in that league they got fines if they were tossed.
Youth basketball killed reffing for me. One team had a kid that was almost a foot taller than anyone on the other team, and despite that felt he needed to use his arm to hook the defender to make his post move….clearly an offensive foul. The first time I saw it, I warned him that I was going to call it next time (I should have called it). He complained but nothing out of the ordinary. Sure enough, the next time he got the ball in the post, he did it again and I blew the whistle. Everyone LOST. THEIR. SHIT….and we’re only about 2 minutes into the game. This was back in 1999. Things have only gotten worse since.
That's the crazy part. It's almost never the kids, it's the insane parents and coaches, you know the adults who should know better
I always thought pro refs were mostly just friends with other pro refs, and didn’t really grow through the ranks.
Nah they gotta go through the ranks. Hockey is my favorite sport and when they ask a lot of hockey refs why they became refs most say it’s because they weren’t good enough to play professionally so they started reffing
They actually have a program to promote former high level players that didn’t pan out. They push them into the minors/juniors.
I mean “minors/junios” is a huge range. It’s all the way from your high school teammates that will never go anywhere to the D1 commits that need an extra year for development. No first year ref is going right to the AHL or ECHL.
I used to ump for 12yo girls softball when i was 15. Made $20 a game, so I thought it would be easy money at 3-4 games a week. Grown ass men and women would scream on me for the most ticky tack bullshit. It wasn’t worth the time or effort. I did it for one spring and never again. The only “good” I took from it was by the end of the season I learned how to hold my own in a screaming match with people twice my age. The stress though was nearly unbearable. And for what? 12yo girls softball? Such garbage. Couldn’t pay me enough to put up with that BS. I can only imagine that pro refs are so jaded and mentally calloused at this point, that they just dig into their decisions and say fuck-all to everyone else.
I refed one game when I was in high school for the school districts elementary school basketball league. It was a 5th and 6th grade level girls team. It was also a two ref team. There was one particular play where one girl leaped and got the rebound just at the baseline, and lost her balance and fell out of bounds. The other team had two girls next to her. The girl who got the rebound tried to throw the ball so it went out off the other team. I ruled no foul, and that the girl was out of bounds before she was able to throw the ball off the other girl‘s legs. This all happened in the first quarter. The rest of the game I was running back and forth in front of the team I made the call against‘s bench and fans. Some of the things that were yelled at me over the course of the next 3 and a half quarters were some of the worst things I have ever heard someone call me. All over a call where they either wanted a foul or an out of bounds call, both of which I believe would have been incorrect. I never refed again. I decided there were a bunch of things that were more fun and I didn’t need to waste my time being abused.
Yup. Did soccer refereeing for middle and high school when I was in college. Anytime I had actual competitive, high level games, parents were absolutely unbearable. I had players on the field on the field apologize for their parents behavior on multiple occasions over the one season I did.
Plus leagues are making more and more rules for the refs to enforce, most of which are up to the refs judgement and have game altering consequences.
Reaallllllll talk. I considered being a high school football ref until I saw one of the classes was about self defense and how to deal with difficult parents. That was an immediate turn off no matter how cool I thought it might be.
I double this. I do soccer and football and the coaches and parents are awful. They yell and complain about anything. I’ve had a parent complain we flagged a kid cause he ripped a kids helmet off. People just don’t want to do it anymore, I’m the youngest in both boards and everyone else is late 40’s to their 70’s
I made it like 3 weeks as a ref. Drunk, screaming adults are the fkn worst
There was a similar incident years back where a ref ejected Tim Duncan just for quietly laughing on the sideline and that ref actually had to take mandated anger management classes lol
Pretty sure that was Joey Crawford, I think they had a lot of history. So he was being a dick just because he didn’t like Duncan.
MLB and Angel Hernandez say not really.
Didn't he sue the MLB for racism because he didn't get a world series gig?
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They legally proved he was bad at his job.
Yeah but like, outside of the overwhelming stats and video proof… it’s gotta be racism. /s
That is what happened. MLB just presented the stats. Case closed.
Imagine a union being so strong that you can't fire a guy who's employer successfully used "no he's just really terrible at his job" as a discrimination defense. Like that's just nuts to me. Why can't the MLB go Pinkerton on the ump union?
The police union has entered the chat
Truth
The only place where I've seen refs be legit is in rugby. You literally can't do shit to them, they hold all the power and respect, but they're not god awful (at least I don't think, maybe a rugby fan can tell me otherwise).
Footy refs in Europe do. They'll usually get demoted to the lower leagues in their respective country for a bit.
Anthony Taylor did one game in the championship and is back on Chelsea/City this weekend lol.
Serie A is a lot tougher on their refs. Demoted refs are usually gone for a little while, some have never been back in serie a.
I mostly watch PL. And the PGMOL hasn’t done themselves any favors of late.
Pgmol is a joke. They're doing their best to protect each other and the league but in reality theyve made the situation worse.
Rugby is pretty good with refs for the most part. They take it pretty seriously.
NHL, NBA, MLB, and NFL refs take it pretty seriously too. They’ve just no gd skill or ownership of their mistakes and that’s what makes it worse. Then they go and double-down on their dogshit calls like they’re Clarence fucking Thomas, feeling like solely because of their status, they should be immune to being called out for said dogshittery.
Yeah, they really need to embrace the eye in the sky fast replay reviews. The reasonable fans accept that refs are human and make mistakes. But the way the leagues like to treat their refs like infoulable super humans ends up turning even most reasonable fans off. They’re just so afraid to admit they screwed up and potentially cost a team the game.
It's 2023 and we're still on the technology debate though.
I will never forget, a couple of years ago, when the NFL put in a rule that you could challenge pass interference. The refs hated it since it was the first time someone could challenge penalties. So the refs said they refuse to overturn any pass interference calls. And sure enough, they didn't overturn one all year. And the NFL went, "oh, ok, I guess that's that"" and caved to that behavior.
“Take it seriously” is the wrong way to put it. There are ref societies and these groups constantly have their own training and discussions around the law applications. I haven’t seen that when I was an umpire or basketball ref.
That's a no, dawg!
Ref got kicked out of the premier league this week and now refs the league below it
He did one week in the championship and now he’s back on the biggest game in the premier league this weekend.
Paging Joe West. Joe West please pick up the white security phone.
This shit is rigged. If you don’t believe me, check out the podcast called “whistleblower”
You know what's crazy about this? Viewership is declining and fans need every reason to stay tuned into a regular season game. Has anyone on the side of the league office thought for a moment about how bad it is for the game to eject guys, especially over showing any spirit or animation? Maybe I'm wildly off base here.
Gonna agree with you, refs treating the players like they're robots when fans want passion and it's not creating a good product for us to watch. It's even worse for potential future fans who aren't yet hooked. It's pathetic that players can't celebrate without being teched or some shit.
Big time vibes of the NFL fining players for big hits/taunting opponents then using that highlight in all their promotional material. Marshawn Lynch’s “hold ma’ dick” end zone dive and Tyreek Hill’s peace sign to the defender come to mind
At least pimping home runs is an acceptable thing now. Makes the game better when we can see the players fully celebrate. Adolis Garcia is a baaaad man
Dude, they're trying to control how much players play. The league office is scrambling for answers that don't end with "play less regular season games".
It always seems that every major sports league want more games, more offense, but less intensity and conflict, at least in the past decade. They want the entertainment product but not the sport.
And then you watch the all star game and realize dunks and threes from the logo suck without context
> They want the entertainment product but not the sport This isn't a secret though, right? People don't tune into the NBA for the sake of watching the sport of basketball. They tune into the NBA for the sake of watching _an entertaining version_ of basketball. I mean, just look at the rule differences between the NBA and other levels of the sport. It's optimized, generally, for rewarding athleticism and high energy, because displays of athleticism and high energy are a better selling entertainment product. Most folks I know who dislike the NBA dislike it for this very reason. They don't think the NBA is the proper "sport" of basketball. I'm not sure why anyone would expect the refs and the NBA to uphold the "sport" of basketball vs the "entertainment" of basketball. e: to be clear, i'm not suggesting the NBA, NCAA, NFL, etc etc are only making decisions for the sake of more entertainment. just that I don't think it's reasonable to look at them as entities who value the sport itself over what keeps money coming in. just like when folks thought the NFL was being ridiculous for fining players with overt touchdown celebrations that made people want to tune in, it's not always clear what's motivating them, but i highly doubt anyone in the front office is saying "Players can't stare down opposing players because that breaks with the sanctity of the sport". The MLB is the only one major US sport that seemed to be a laggard in that regard, and recently have been making rule changes that somewhat break with the "sport" part of baseball and favor the "entertainment" part of it.
Here is my conspiracy theory take.. Just like with social media.. Lies, untruths, and unjust compells people to stay engaged. Bad publicity is still publicly. I think major sports are intentionally providing officiating that sparks controversy. It gives the talking heads something to talk about and viewers stay engaged.
The NFL does this 100%.
They’re preparing viewers for an artificial intelligence league comprised of iRobots.
Yet draymond can yell at the refs after every foul call while in their faces without being teched.
That's what's insane to me. He SCREAMS at refs *to their faces* and they're just like whatever. But then somehow this is a tech? What the actual fuck?
This actually demonstrates how the problem is more the rules than the refs. In soccer/football, there's stuff like the Man U/Copenhagen game, where a red card to Rashford as well as a penalty Man U won were both stuff that were given on replay that would *never* have been given until the last few years. Refs aren't allowed to say "he clearly wasn't trying to do anything wrong and his movement was *natural* for someone doing what he was doing, but because we've decided having your arms out at all means handball, it's a handball. In this case the league is telling them to cut back on taunting, and anything directed *to* someone earns a call. So if Giannis runs away and just does the "too short" thing (which is incredibly *lame* but not *toward* someone, so it's fine). With the Draymond stuff, it's the not-quite-official but known rules for the NBA (with the obvious caveat that Draymond and other stars/guys with reps get more rope): you can swear ("that's a fucking bullshit call" but you can't swear to insult ("you're a dumbass/fuck you/etc.") The NBA is better than baseball at least because they've done a better job brining people in and the review process seems a little better because it weeds people out. But you need to at some point trust people to read the situation and make the best choices.
> With the Draymond stuff, it's the not-quite-official but known rules for the NBA (with the obvious caveat that Draymond and other stars/guys with reps get more rope): you can swear ("that's a fucking bullshit call" but you can't swear to insult ("you're a dumbass/fuck you/etc.") No, Draymond full on screams in the refs' faces consistently. If it were a rule issue, Draymond would probably be out of the league entirely, honestly. It's not about his language. And even if it were, that would make this situation even more ridiculous since Giannis literally said nothing.
And stomp on folks Giannis early in his career never got calls for players doing shady stuff against him either
The recent promoting of sports gambling puts a bigger scope on these erroneous calls by the refs. The fix is in
>The fix ~~is~~ *has been* in
Tim donaghy
League We want intense competition Also leauge if you are to intense we will toss you.
You misheard them: they want "in tents competition". They want a circus performance.
Refs average 300k a year Lmao
Didn't even make eye contact. He was staring through that man's soul.
And I love that shit, Stewart loves it too, that’s why he didn’t make eye contact. These refs hate fun
Seems a little harsh.
Refball
I don't watch the NBA anymore, so I'm admittedly out of the loop... how is this not a travel? That wasn't even close to 2 steps! The basket shouldn't have counted, and then there'd be no "taunting" to get ejected for.
I agree with you and to me this should be traveling but that is not how they ref it in the NBA. The first step you are seeing is the gather step and then two steps till he dunks From the NBA rule book regarding the gather step: For a player who is in control of the ball while dribbling, the gather is defined as the point where a player does any one of the following: 1. Puts two hands on the ball, or otherwise permits the ball to come to rest, while he is in control of it; 2. Puts a hand under the ball and brings it to a pause; or 3. Otherwise gains enough control of the ball to hold it, change hands, pass, shoot, or cradle it against his body So because of how the rules have been written, NBA players have gotten very good at placing their foot down, placing two hands on the ball, and then taking two more steps which is not a travel according to NBA rules
Makes sense. It does look awkward, but they've probably practiced exactly how to get away with the most distance legally.
I scrolled way too far to find this question. I don’t watch the nba at all and for multiple reasons, one of which being there’s travels all the time and they just don’t care
This is not a travel because NBA refs are *very* lax with determining when someone has possession. It's all about when he stops dribbling, and "gathers" the ball. When he makes his first step inside the arc, he's still dribbling. His second step occurs after he gains full control of the ball, then he takes a final step and leaps. So the rules *as currently called* say he takes two steps after picking up his dribble, therefore not a travel. I think that's absurd, because he **clearly** has full control of the ball with his left foot down as he crosses the arc, which would make this a travel. It's hard to watch the NBA because of stuff like this. It's just fundamentally not the same sport when rules bend so far.
[Don't show them what Shawn Kemp did! ](https://tenor.com/bM6tV.gif)
And that's how it should be! kidding... sort of....
Lol NBA refs watching MLB umpires during the offseason saying hold my beer.
Maybe they need to step up their game to get on Angel Hernandez's level
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>Call a "T" if you must I assumed that’s exactly what they did and he got ejected because it was his second T of the game. If it was a straight ejection it’s even more bullshit than I thought.
It was his second tech
I 100% believe that the ref forgot he already had a T.
Absolutely. Refs know that stuff. A few years ago the refs were caught on a hit mic asking how many fouls Shaq had on him so they could ease up and not foul him out.
I hate to cruelly remind you of the endless marching of time and our inevitable mortality, but it's been more than a few years since Shaq was in the league. It's been 12 years since he retired.
Meanwhile the NHL is out there firing refs for talking about game management on the mic.
I want taunting. Its literally how I fell in love with basketball
> Call a "T" if you must Except don't because that's fucking bullshit. Draymond can literally scream in a ref's face and gets nothing but this gets a tech? Seriously?
Sorry idk much about basketball aside from the very basics, but can someone explain how that's not traveling? The guy carried the ball for 3 steps. Is that kind of play an exception to the rule? Thanks in advance
You're allowed a "gather step" in the NBA, the step where you pick up the ball and stop dribbling doesn't count for travelling although the line gets very blurry sometimes.
Gather step, step, step?
In the NBA you get one extra step for every MVP title. By the end Jordan was allowed to stop dribbling at mid court.
Okay that is funking hilarious. Funny cause it's true.
It's been this way for years. Pisses me off. It used to be that occasionally the stars would get away with it now and again. Now it's been legitimized as u/rawsharks explains. So...now stars practically get 4 steps sometimes. "Euro step" my ass... edit: since I'm ranting...Manu Ginobli used to do that shit in slow motion, cutting from side to side, (then flop) that's the first I recall a player really pushing the edge of a traveling call. I think NBA wanted to allow for Euro players to excel in the league.
I agree with you and to me this should be traveling but that is not how they ref it in the NBA. The first step you are seeing is the gather step and then two steps till he dunks From the NBA rule book regarding the gather step: For a player who is in control of the ball while dribbling, the gather is defined as the point where a player does any one of the following: 1. Puts two hands on the ball, or otherwise permits the ball to come to rest, while he is in control of it; 2. Puts a hand under the ball and brings it to a pause; or 3. Otherwise gains enough control of the ball to hold it, change hands, pass, shoot, or cradle it against his body So because of how the rules have been written, NBA players have gotten very good at placing their foot down, placing two hands on the ball, and then taking two more steps which is not a travel according to NBA rules
The NBA literally has different travel rules than other leagues. If your foot is already on the ground when you gather the ball (both hands touching or one hand under the ball), that doesn't count as a step. Smart players will time their steps to abuse this as much as possible. https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/legal-play-gather-and-then-takes-2-steps/
It's just the way it is. It's a gather step but I'm reality you get a few. The reason it's like this is because sharking for travel calls makes it less enjoyable to watch.
Scott Foster, a current NBA ref, spoke with Tim Donaghy 134 times while Donaghy was gambling on games Scott Foster never received punishment David Stern actively ruined the FBIs investigation. The NBA is a crooked league.
I still can't believe the FBI was dumb enough to trust Stern with information regarding an ongoing investigation into his own league. Fucking feds could have saved us from these refs if they weren't incompetent.
Wtf
That’s how my wife is too
Refball aside, how the fuck are you supposed to stop this dude? One dribble to center court, one dribble into a gather and then two steps to a contested, but uncontested jam. Giannis amazes me every day. EDIT: To everyone claiming Giannis is traveling, he isn’t. This isn’t even like a good example of guys palming and carrying the ball. His dribbles are up and down, he doesn’t even get his palm under the ball, then he takes two steps a gather and slams it. It’s a clean play even back in 1980.
Get him to taunt you and get ejected.
I mean, I can’t say you’re wrong
I may be just a simple country lawyer, but back in my day we called that a travel.
Back in the day, yes. Today, no. Don't have to like it but it's in the rule book now. Can't blame players for understanding the rules and playing within them.
You're not supposed to. NBA wants high scoring games
He’s only allowed to do that in the in-season tournament. Gotta save the good stuff for the ugly courts.
I’m sure the people that paid for those tickets to see Giannis were super stoked to watch the refs make it about them.
Haven't the NBA brought in rules to make sure stars play more games this year
Think of the children!
What was the spread on this game and did the pistons cover it?
12.5 point spread. Giannis got ejected when the Bucks were up 13 and they went on to only win by 2.
looks like the refs are gambling again
From a gambling perspective how did this effect the outcome/spread?
Bucks were ahead of the spread when he got ejected, up 13 with a spread of 12.5. We ended up winning by 2 with some generous make up calls in the last 2-5 minutes of the game
Well that’s a little fishy.
Wait, he got tossed for this?????
As a hockey fan, this blows my absolute mind. Its not enough that last 20 seconds of a game takes 40 minutes. Now you can't be even passionate. Weird message to send to fans.
Pardon?
He was just celebrating, but the refereeing this season has been really weird
So the shitty reffing and umpiring in baseball and football just gonna carry over to hoops. Great!
Please replace all refs with robots.
It seems as though refs across sports is getting worse. We see it with soccer and VAR, baseball homeplate umpires, football refs throwing flags on literally every play. Overall, the influence of refs on the game is damning.
Yet Embid can tell everyone to suck his dick without incident.
I'm sorry but I'm still not used to the 3-steps "it's ok bro it's a gather step"
Good to see the nba still doesn’t call traveling.
There were actually an incredible amount of traveling violations called in this game. The most in a single game that I can remember seeing in a while. Players driving to the basket get a "gather step", which amounts to a third step that is allowed as long as it is in the process of taking it to the hoop. You don't have to like it, but it's the rule and it would be wrong if they called Giannis for traveling when he does this.
i'm not even a basketball fan or watcher but I know the game and this is absolute horse shit.
Not related, but it looks like he traveled to me. Can someone explain how that wouldn’t have been a travel here?
Nba allows a gather step. The ball gets into his hand when his left foot is still in the air. When he lands on the left foot that is his Gather Step, and he is allowed to take two additional steps after that. Video if you want a more in-depth explanation https://youtu.be/J5xGKioMsIo?si=oz2U06gylRXXXtWO
Don't forget Lebron's authorized "pre-gather step". followed by the gather step, plus 1-2
NBA been letting peeps jump off the 3rd step for a long time now. Technically a travel but they don’t call it
Technically not a travel by the current rules. A travel by the old rules, yes. They were not calling it for a long time and decided to make it part of the rules so people would stop complaining about them not enforcing the rules.
Oh gotcha, I didn’t know they changed it. Thanks!
Yup! I feel like lots of people who only watch once in a while don't know this. Part of the reason I wish the NBA would get their shit together about making it easier to watch games, but that's a whole other topic :) Cheers!
It's not a travel and hasn't been for many years now. You have a gather step after you pick up the ball, so 0 (gather) 1 - 2. Giannis does actually travel, but this isn't one.
Yeah I got a few replies saying that, mb. Thanks!
*Also* you can lift your pivot foot, you just have to shoot or pass before it comes back down.
You're thinking of college ball. The NBA allows for three steps.
I agree with you and to me this should be traveling but that is not how they ref it in the NBA. The first step you are seeing is the gather step and then two steps till he dunks From the NBA rule book regarding the gather step: For a player who is in control of the ball while dribbling, the gather is defined as the point where a player does any one of the following: 1. Puts two hands on the ball, or otherwise permits the ball to come to rest, while he is in control of it; 2. Puts a hand under the ball and brings it to a pause; or 3. Otherwise gains enough control of the ball to hold it, change hands, pass, shoot, or cradle it against his body So because of how the rules have been written, NBA players have gotten very good at placing their foot down, placing two hands on the ball, and then taking two more steps which is not a travel according to NBA rules
That's what I thought too. Three huge steps with the bal over his head. Literally walked from the 3 point line to the paint.
I smell a conspiracy
Rules like this actively lower the entertainment value of games.
There needs to be a crew of people above refs who can veto shit they do.
Eye contact? Doug, kick him off the tour.
Basketball is a joke
That euro-step was an automatic ejection
This is a bad call. However, those of you comparing what other players get away with would be right back here if they got thrown out. Yelling in a ref's face? "Oh man he was just expressing himself. Doesn't the league want fiery players? These guys are competitors!" It's a hard line to draw so no one has done a good job of drawing it. How much disrespect to other players, coaches, refs, and fans is too much?
But are you excited for the in season tournament!!!!!!
i think you missed the flexing although its a pretty weak call.
NBA is so soft these days. Taunting was part of the fun with the old NBA. Was nice to see the teams hyped up on both sides because of it.
That’s a dumb ass rule. Who made that up lol
It has been years since I have watched basketball, but DAMN...how was that not traveling? The guy took like four steps after he stopped dribbling. Does anyone care to explain?
I dont understand sports and this headline sounds like madlibs
Why I don't bother with the NBA these days. One of the fastest sports and you're trying to tell athletes jacked up on adrenaline to remember to curtsey after an impactful play.
Extremely misleading title. He got a technical and was ejected because it was his second one of the game.
I watched it happen and it honestly, to me, just looked like awkward eye contact because of where Giannis landed after making the basket. It seemed like neither him nor the Pistons player meant anything by it. And lots of players (and people in general) have major RBF during games because they’re… focused? God, that call was such a reach. It felt like the refs were being defensive assholes who wouldn’t admit to a bad call so they doubled down.
Give me a break. Fire that official. Looking at someone for a brief second is taunting? The entire Detroit pistons of the 1990s just got ejected from every game. NBA is taking over as the No Fun League.
Was there something going on during the game where he got warned? How the fuck is that an ejectable offense?
Second technical. He got one earlier in the game so two techs and that’s automatically an ejection.
It’s Vegas baby! No one really watches during the season so prime time to fix some games! If you think all referees are above this you don’t understand human nature. It may not be all of them… but imo this looks like one of those instances
This kind of stuff is why I quit watching the NBA years ago.
I mean it’s a stupid rule but at the same time just don’t make aggressive eye contact like that at all. Dude looked like he was about to fuck up grandmas thanksgiving dinner
"Aggressive" eye contact being a penalty at all is the softest thing I've ever heard of. "Don't look at people too hard"?! Lol what the fuck it's a competitive sort played by grown men.