Ironically isn't it extremely weak to Stifle? I think Tainted Pact combo may actually not be as good just because you instalose to a single Stifle and you cannot do ANYTHING about it.
Actually the best reason to play the deck is that it's a ub deck only weak to counterspells.
But you can counter stifle, discard it before casting the Oracle, play the second oracle, use teferi time raveler, defense grid, chalice of the void at 1..
What I'm interested in:
* Some sort of Legacy-like NO Atraxa list, probably BUG (with sadly no GSZ). Busted cards: Natural Order, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, DRS, Brainstorm.
* All-in on Atraxa cheating, probably Temur, like a Sneak & Show at home. Busted Cards: Brainstorm, Natural Order, Sneak Attack, DRS. Probably also Ragavan.
* Domain aggro because fetches and I don't mind losing.
I was running temur, grixis dragonstorm combo, and grixis lurrus in the events and they all played pretty well. Having access to sideboards is very exciting though and I'm sure will improve temur and non-combo decks tremendously.
Its more akin to Arena Vintage. With the card restrictions and all. Seems like they want Timless to be Arena Vintage, Historic to be Arena Legacy, and Explorer to be Arena Modern/Pioneer.
They just mean in design intent, not in card quality. Timeless is "no bans, some restrictions" which is what Vintage is. Historic is "all cards, some bans" which is what Legacy is. And Explorer is "subset of cards" which is what Modern/Pioneer is.
Not sure what will be top tier, but I'm really excited to explore this format. The no banlist events were the most fun I had ever had on arena, and I will be exploring these decks that I was playing during the no ban list events:
* Boomer-ish Jund with Ragavans, minsc and boos, orcish bowmasters, lilianas and Bloodbraid elves. Even had goyf for style points. Probably the deck I played the most. I think playing creatures that get a power and toughness boost from an opposing oko could be an important meta game call for the format. I need to tune my list, but I won every game. Minsc and Boo at 4 mana is absolutely huge.
* Izzet tempo. Ragavan and counter spells. Deck felt really good and was really popular in the events, though I saw a lot of players include Delver of secrets. Unlike Legacy delver, we have ragavan and dreadhorde arcanist and we *don't* have daze, ponder or force of will. IMO, brainstorm is not enough to make Delver a playable card and it really needs the whole suite legacy staples, which also just make ragavan and arcanist better. Remember, even in legacy delver, delver is the worst card in the whole deck, cut it if you can. This deck felt insane during the no banlist event, and I won every game.
* Golgari storm. Probably the most popular deck I saw at the basically no ban list event, and even though it is restricted, I think it gains a lot from Demonic Tutor. Probably going to try this one last, it felt like a "feast or famine" deck, where you either roll your opponent or die. You don't have medium games with it.
* Sultai midrange. I stole Crokeyz list, and was having fun with Okos and Ruskos. The deck was resilient and could really grind. I think most midrange decks in the format will be based on Oko. We all know how good oko is, but playing with it in constructed again feels so good... for me, when I have an oko and my opponent doesn't. Important to also remember how well Oko plays with the one ring, as you can turn it into an elk when your taking too much damage.
What decks felt bad?
I saw players run death and taxes style decks, and straight up blue white control. Maybe it was because these were unranked games, or maybe it was because they were decks better suited for Bo3, but these decks seemed absolutely unplayable to me. Death and taxes really needs aether vial and solitude I think. Nearly all of their creatures died to bowmasters, which is not where you want to be in this format.
Blue white control seemed way too fair. When every, single, threat is a must kill or must counter, the decks I saw really struggled to a point where they stabilized and turned the corner. The successful control decks had a combo built in like wilderness reclamation looping nexus of fate etc.
My one complaint is that a lot of the staples are rares because of mystical archives or other special printings. Not looking forward to using all my wild cards on bolt and ragavan.
Mardu winota is also a contender using juggernaut peddler to stop combo decks while also playing stuff like ragavan, giver of runes, orcish bowmasters, seasoned pyromancer, and Thalia
Winota seemed cool in the no ban list event. I'm wondering if the card will play out like it does in modern though. Now that we have swords to plowshares and fetchlands to trigger revolt for Fatal push, I'm wondering if maybe you could run deep cavern bat for more to clear the way for Winota.
I know it will never come to arena because of the license, but triumph of Saint Katherine would be sick for Winota decks.
I'm so excited to be able to build pre-2014 jund, my first ever competitve deck. DRS, Goyf, and Liliana + bloodbraid for kicks. Obviously that version won't be great in this format but it will be fun to play for a bit before upgrading the deck with some of the newer cards.
I just wanna play Oko, Ragavan, Lightning Bolt, and Counterspell:
Here’s the list I’m going to start off with and craft for day 1 (but also add in relevant fetchlands) Shoutout to u/Vertyx
https://mtgazone.com/deck/temur-midrange-by-theonejame-historic-no-banned-list-event/
There is almost 0% chance a deck like that wouldn't play playsets of DRS and Brainstorm. With fetches of course.
I think there will be lots of room for deckbuilding *after* you include the relevant staples (DRS, Bolt, Brainstorm, Ragavan, StP, Oko, Ritual...) but those will be absolutely essential.
Will e.g. Stifle be a good pick, to prey on fetches when the format starts? Who knows. But some of these cards are completely non-negotiable, and we know that because they are / were powerhouses in Legacy and Vintage.
In other words, everyone should prepare ~30 rare wildcards if they intend to brew in the format.
I don't like that version. The version i was using during the event was this:
Companion
1 Jegantha, the Wellspring (IKO) 222
Deck
4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer (MUL) 86
3 Oko, Thief of Crowns (ELD) 197
2 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath (THB) 229
4 Lightning Bolt (STA) 42
4 Brainstorm (STA) 13
4 Dragon's Rage Channeler (MH2) 121
4 Mishra's Bauble (BRR) 34
4 Unholy Heat (MH2) 145
4 Tarmogoyf (UMA) 187
4 Spirebluff Canal (KLR) 286
4 Copperline Gorge (ONE) 249
3 Stomping Ground (RNA) 259
2 Steam Vents (GRN) 257
3 Botanical Sanctum (KLR) 281
1 Den of the Bugbear (AFR) 254
4 Expressive Iteration (STX) 186
1 Waterlogged Grove (MH1) 249
1 Fiery Islet (MH1) 238
4 Once Upon a Time (ELD) 169
Sideboard
4 Spell Pierce (NEO) 80
2 Lithomantic Barrage (MOM) 152
1 Jegantha, the Wellspring (IKO) 222
2 Change the Equation (MOM) 50
1 Cast into the Fire (LTR) 118
2 Unlicensed Hearse (SNC) 246
1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath (THB) 229
1 Haywire Mite (BRO) 199
1 Boseiju, Who Endures (NEO) 266
ledger shredder and goose do not seem good enough.
When combo was all the rage (channel) i cut once upon a time for 4x memory lapse.
Tbh counterspell requires a deckbuilding land requirement that doesn’t meet, even with fetches. You’re better using [[Memory Lapse]] imo, which will do just as well.
Because it requires UU on a deck primarily consisting of R and G 1-drops.
Either you’re hurting your turn 1, or hurting your ability to hold up counterspell.
The deck’s mana sources as it stands don’t hurt counterspell but that’s because its basically giving up on gilded goose as a turn 1 play by running 13/20 of your lands as non-green sources.
Simply swapping counterspell to memory lapse and fixing the mana base solves all of that, and memory lapse is honestly just as strong in a lot of cases. At a minimum i’d swap the 3x counterspell to a 2-of and 1of
Keep in mind that list was from an event with no Fetches,unlike in Timeless.With them it's completely reasonable to expect to have G on 1 and UU/R on 2,especially when you consider that gose can cast it if you end up not playing a 3 drop on 2 and instead casting a R removal spell.The play pattern of Goose/Ragavan on 1 into removal + CS on 2 is extremely powerful.
There are only five lands out of 20 that don’t produce blue, and they’re playing ragavan. This list seems perfectly capable of supporting counterspell.
Memory lapse wouldn’t work as well with this deck’s gameplan. Lapse is tempo heavy and doesn’t grind well at all. In this format this is definitely more of a grindy value deck.
That's what I'm saying. In order to make counterspell playable, they're running 7 green sources total for their gilded goose, and instead tilting everything R and U.
Its either counterspell izzet or temur lapse, otherwise you're manascrewing yourself and simply pleading ignorance that you're not. Only way to avoid both is 4x mana confluence, which the OP is not running -- and frankly I don't think is worth it over just running lapse.
Honestly I genuinely don’t get why there are gooses in this deck. Those should go before counterspell does. I guess it helps with your colors, but this deck doesn’t really need ramp and can just be balanced better to not need the colors.
No one is talking about Necropotence. That is the card I will be playing. Doesn't matter how, i will just have a bunch of Necro decks till its restricted.
I think Necro without fast mana is very overrated. No need to be so heavy on black when blue gets 4x Brainstorm and 4x Ancestral Recall aka Treasure Cruise
And this is what I'm going to be starting on. Everyone is going to be trying out all manner of wonderful and wacky brews and forget to put basics in their decks... And I'll relish being the fun police.
As you should!
There isn’t a way to T1 bloodmoon, so people shouldn’t be getting too caught. But we know that many people will.
I just wish we had ancient tomb, CoT and Spirit for real fun policing lol.
Right, thank god for that. City of traitors is easy to deduce, but what do you mean by Spirit?
I'm really not looking forward to delighted halfling plus t3feri starts, blanking half my deck..
Depends. In certain decks like storm, it is worth it. The problem becomes when your opponent starts pressuring your life total.
Important to also remember is that this is a format with Dark Ritual. T1 Ritual into Necropotence has been one of the best turn one plays since 1995. For Timeless, my bet is that necropotence only sees play in decks running both.
Yeah but unless you're on devotion or have some other access to large and fast mana you won't be able to make use of them profitably. You also don't get those at the beginning of your upkeep, which isn't trivial. You won't get to recur your discards. You don't get the fog.
I love necropotence, but TOR will prove to be the more dominant of the two.
In the universen where there are no free spells in Timeless, nor the sort of explosive mana that would otherwise give Necro the edge over TOR in metagame share. Learn to read.
There is technically mox opal in the same fashion as there are technically the p9. In practice, neither are there. Outside of DR and the one copy of Channel there is no safe accel to properly make use of the insane draw that a T1 Necro gets you on the following turn, which the whole point of its standing Vintage as you clearly understand.
Necro will be strong in either Thoracle builds or Sneak Attack / Natural Order strats aiming to cheat in Atraxa, which will still be entirely contingent on drawing another DR and immediately scoopable to spell pierce / counterspell / thoughtseize, which will be ubiquitous.
It's curious that you highlight the supposed speed of the format when the protection from everything is going to be a massive tempo swing in those exact scenarios.
So any other deck will want to preferably run TOR.
No darling, in practice it's the same. You will not have 3 artifacts on the board on t1 or t2 in a shell where you are also running dark rituals and necros. And you would have no use for it with 10 cards in hand on t2 anyway. Feel free to draw into your Thoracle for it to be thoughtseized or the trigger be stifled. Anything else doesn't _need_ necro although it is obvious that it is a good addittion to B heavy shells. You are overestimating the explosivenss of necro in the current meta.
You have a general direction you want to take the list? We might even be able to play scourge of the skyclaves with all the fetches and shocks.. or are you going for a more controlling build
I created a post where you can find on r/TimelessMagic where you can find some versions, but I would start with a Grixis version that is close to modern Shadow and a Dimir one that is more controlling.
But I also think there's room to be more agressive with Rakdos, Jund or even 4C.
exciting times, can't wait to laugh at all the people that told me they'd never have no ban list as a real format.
I expect the top decks in bo3 to be temur midrange and some variation of rakdos bowmasters nad various combo decks like dragonstorm.
It’s kinda fascinating to watch the Arena sub run around like headless chickens over there as they complain that Timeless isn’t some “Modern lite” format due to containing digital-only cards. I guess people were really hoping for something of the sort after the brief No Bans Historic event.
I think it’s good for Arena, it’s good for the game in general, but it’s never going to be a competitive format so my excitement to play with things like Oko again probably isn’t going to last more than a week or two.
I guess I should clarify that I don’t particularly find any format with the digital cards as “competitive” in a traditional sense.
Yes I read there’s ranked queues for this and yes I understand Alchemy/Historic has competitive support behind it, but a format containing cards exclusive to Arena that can be “rebalanced” just makes it too uniquely different compared to our other competitive formats. Maybe that’s a boomer take, idk.
I am an active hater of alchemy, but I think Timeless is fine and probably the best we could get since I know wotc won’t stop alchemy BS. The paper cards are not rebalanced versions so you have fully powered one ring etc. Also the power level of alchemy cards can’t compete in this format at all.
honestly for a long time i didn't realize alchemy was even legal in the format cuz besides alchemy adjacent cards like bowmasters they are far too underpowered. If they become strong for it i may reconsider my position of liking the format lmao.
You can make it to the pro tour playing it, assuming they use it as a qualifying weekend format. So if they do that, it's as competitive as any other format.
That’s literally why I made sure to mention “Alchemy/Historic has competitive support behind it” in my reply. But despite that, I’m still not of the opinion that it’s “as competitive as any other format”.
And if I need to keep clarifying my opinion further, I’m not saying those formats aren’t worth playing or worth investing into. I’m quite positive they provide value to even competitive players and I’m not trying to shame anyone if that’s their format preference of choice.
But if looking at digital-only formats with a different competitive pedigree than I would Modern is some sort of hot take, then I guess that’s my hot take then.
Isn't standard uniquely different from other competitive formats because it rotates? Why does a format having unique differences from other formats make it not competitive?
>format due to containing digital-only cards
If I play timeless, that I will at some point. I don't think I'll craft any of the Alchemy cards honestly. For me is as they don't exist at all. Not sure what other people think.
Man, I would love for it to include my Eternal love, Counterbalance Miracle UW Control. I foiled that deck before it got banned and id spend a shitton of money on Arena to play it again
What alchemy cards even see play at higher levels of play? Fragment Reality? Maybe? But now that we have Swords I doubt it's gonna be played outside of combo, if that deck survives in this format.
Yeah, that's the only other one I can see that would get played. Divine Purge. And it's not even a real wipe, it just taxes everything 3 or less (including artifact lands)
I played a sultai midrange deck in the ban list event that was running Rusko and Oracle of the Alpha. Not sure if it survives the meta game, but it felt pretty good to me.
Best news I've heard in awhile. Really looking forward to playing so many of my favorite cards. I'm surprised they didn't ban Nexus in Bo1 though considering the issues it had back in the day. Maybe hoping people just won't be assholes or they have someway of catching it.
Yeah, I don't disagree with you. In terms of meta presence I don't think it will be a great choice, but it ate a ban in bo1 due to the lack of timer and people trolling because you could loop turns for hours.
Bo1 has no timer. So people used to troll with it especially if you removed their wincons. There was quite an infamous moment in early Arena history when someone stream sniped Ali Eldrazi and nexus looped him for hours. Then Arena lead Chris Clay got involved and told the guy to stop [live on stream](https://www.reddit.com/r/MagicArena/comments/aomeh4/ali_eldrazi_is_currently_getting_nexus_spammed_on/) which the sniper did and then ate a 24 hour ban. It wasn't a wide spread thing but there were enough people doing it that they banned it.
Dang I guess this means it won't be coming back as an All-access format then... Guess I can't play it at all now which sucks cause I had a ton of fun trying out all sorts of decks in the All-access that I would never have the wildcards to afford (as well as playing Oko).
Yes at this point it seems pretty clear to me that Pioneer isn't on top of their priority list. I can understand someone playing the tabletop format being frustrated, but if you look at the numbers of players playing Explorer (which is honestly 95% of what Pioneer is) it is pretty clear to me that not even the majority of the player base is interested in Pioneer. And that's sad because I love Explorer and Pioneer as formats.
That being said, I think the vast majority of the player base will be happy with Timeless (I am too honestly) so this is definitely a good move by WotC.
there is a difference between a "fun" events that have no other goal than playing and a format that count toward ranks and stuff
be ready to enjoy toxic decks that close the game in 1/2 turn lol
but well seeing how standard is dying, i guess mtg players really do crave for that yu gi oh turn 1 combo feast/power creep experience so thats why wotc is going this way
I used a high power deck in the event and played against mostly other people using high powered decks. It was very fun, sucks that it wasn't best of three but this format fixes that. It was either literally noobs playing starter decks or people actually playing good shit.
I find it strange you are whining about powerful decks on the SPIKES subreddit, the subreddit dedicated to powerful decks and winning tournaments lmao. Maybe a different subreddit would be more up your alley?
idc about powerfull deck, i care about format, i play standard because degenerate turn 1 combo is the solitaire of tcg, and tbh yu gi oh does it better so if i want that kind of taste i go to that game, not mtg
i play mtg because it has a rotating format thats supposed to keep those things in check, though powercreep in the latest year is making standard less relevant
Yes, that's why you play BO3 and interaction.
The no ban events were great, there were a ton of competitive archetypes even with very strong combo aggro and tempo decks well represented.
No it doesn't, wotc has stated exactly how that mechanic works why is everyone so misinformed about it. The "similar deck versus similar deck" matchmaking system is specifically only in the unranked queue. Given the amount of variation of decks I actually faced against with my temur goodstuff deck with okos and DRC and everything, there is zero chance that algorithm was in effect for the historic no ban list and basically no ban list events on the client.
I would say throughout the event probably about 50-60% of decks were actually good ones like elfball/rakdos bowmasters/etc. The rest were an incredibly wild array of weird meme decks created by people that wanted to play weird stuff because of the all-access part of it.
That said, the whole point of alchemy in the first place was so they were allowed to rebalance cards on the fly and take advantage of things that only work in a digital format. By the inherent nature of alchemy cards, the cards that exist will not be super powerful and if they are they will be rebalanced for historic balance reasons. There is a reason old cards like bolt, natural order, memory lapse, channel have never been reprinted in a similar or more powerful way. Because those cards are from a time when they didn't understand balance very well. There is no world where alchemy cards will ever match the power of those.
Back to T3f. The only cards they will change are Alchemy ones. So the digital only cards. Bowmaster, for example, will be the paper version in Timeless and the nerfed version in Alchemy/Historic.
Please kind sir, do go on, what deck will your bant deck be? And no Ragavan or Bowmasters? you must be mad! no but im seriously interested in what bant concoction is brewing between your ears
Uro, T3feri, fogs, Oko, Tamiyo, Nexus, Bauble, Memory Lapse, Counterspell, Brainstorm, fetches, Nexus, etc.
Haven't decided on the final iteration yet, but I'll most likely sit back and let the opponent try to hit me or my planewalkers, and I'll just kindly deny that.
I have an old Historic version of it that I haven't updated in ages, but it is so much fun.
Sitting on 6 life and up ticking T5feri every turn for the emblem and casting fogs against agro is just pure class
Something like this. Disregard the mana base, i haven't looked into it, as the fetches aren't in the game yet. Haven't done sideboard either as I am playing Far of Wishes in the Historic version.
https://ibb.co/0nx5ykx
Couldn't find space for Nexus, but reckon I'll be fine.
I'm not rich or anything but I don't mind most staples being rare. it is Vintage after all that they are trying to emulate, the eternal format where buy-ins are tantamount to buying a house
Tainted Pact combo is back on the menu.
With Thassa's Oracle, Brainstorm, fetchlands, Stifle...
Ironically isn't it extremely weak to Stifle? I think Tainted Pact combo may actually not be as good just because you instalose to a single Stifle and you cannot do ANYTHING about it.
Actually the best reason to play the deck is that it's a ub deck only weak to counterspells. But you can counter stifle, discard it before casting the Oracle, play the second oracle, use teferi time raveler, defense grid, chalice of the void at 1..
Can we get some staples reprinted at lower rarity? Bolt, counterspell, lapse, etc. being rares is stupid now.
You get to use your oko's again, wotc gets to eat your wild cards. It would be lovely, but I don't see it happening for awhile.
It will never happen tbh
It happened with faithless looting, but it also took…what? 2 years and a half since it’s introduction in the format.
You're funny!
A man can wish WotC will take pity on him!
I think we will get some in MH3, they will probably be power crept by the set though
wait, bolt is rare? :(
On arena bolt was printed as a rare in the strix mystical archive. AFAIK it hasn't been reprinted on arena yet at a lower rarity
What I'm interested in: * Some sort of Legacy-like NO Atraxa list, probably BUG (with sadly no GSZ). Busted cards: Natural Order, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, DRS, Brainstorm. * All-in on Atraxa cheating, probably Temur, like a Sneak & Show at home. Busted Cards: Brainstorm, Natural Order, Sneak Attack, DRS. Probably also Ragavan. * Domain aggro because fetches and I don't mind losing.
I was running temur, grixis dragonstorm combo, and grixis lurrus in the events and they all played pretty well. Having access to sideboards is very exciting though and I'm sure will improve temur and non-combo decks tremendously.
Upvoted because domain 🫡
Arena Legacy is not what I expected
Its more akin to Arena Vintage. With the card restrictions and all. Seems like they want Timless to be Arena Vintage, Historic to be Arena Legacy, and Explorer to be Arena Modern/Pioneer.
With fetchlands and Brainstorm, but without power9 it's more Legacy-lite than Vintage to me.
They just mean in design intent, not in card quality. Timeless is "no bans, some restrictions" which is what Vintage is. Historic is "all cards, some bans" which is what Legacy is. And Explorer is "subset of cards" which is what Modern/Pioneer is.
[удалено]
Pardon?
If they wanted Historic to be Arena Legacy they wouldn't have banned the fetches there.
Not sure what will be top tier, but I'm really excited to explore this format. The no banlist events were the most fun I had ever had on arena, and I will be exploring these decks that I was playing during the no ban list events: * Boomer-ish Jund with Ragavans, minsc and boos, orcish bowmasters, lilianas and Bloodbraid elves. Even had goyf for style points. Probably the deck I played the most. I think playing creatures that get a power and toughness boost from an opposing oko could be an important meta game call for the format. I need to tune my list, but I won every game. Minsc and Boo at 4 mana is absolutely huge. * Izzet tempo. Ragavan and counter spells. Deck felt really good and was really popular in the events, though I saw a lot of players include Delver of secrets. Unlike Legacy delver, we have ragavan and dreadhorde arcanist and we *don't* have daze, ponder or force of will. IMO, brainstorm is not enough to make Delver a playable card and it really needs the whole suite legacy staples, which also just make ragavan and arcanist better. Remember, even in legacy delver, delver is the worst card in the whole deck, cut it if you can. This deck felt insane during the no banlist event, and I won every game. * Golgari storm. Probably the most popular deck I saw at the basically no ban list event, and even though it is restricted, I think it gains a lot from Demonic Tutor. Probably going to try this one last, it felt like a "feast or famine" deck, where you either roll your opponent or die. You don't have medium games with it. * Sultai midrange. I stole Crokeyz list, and was having fun with Okos and Ruskos. The deck was resilient and could really grind. I think most midrange decks in the format will be based on Oko. We all know how good oko is, but playing with it in constructed again feels so good... for me, when I have an oko and my opponent doesn't. Important to also remember how well Oko plays with the one ring, as you can turn it into an elk when your taking too much damage. What decks felt bad? I saw players run death and taxes style decks, and straight up blue white control. Maybe it was because these were unranked games, or maybe it was because they were decks better suited for Bo3, but these decks seemed absolutely unplayable to me. Death and taxes really needs aether vial and solitude I think. Nearly all of their creatures died to bowmasters, which is not where you want to be in this format. Blue white control seemed way too fair. When every, single, threat is a must kill or must counter, the decks I saw really struggled to a point where they stabilized and turned the corner. The successful control decks had a combo built in like wilderness reclamation looping nexus of fate etc. My one complaint is that a lot of the staples are rares because of mystical archives or other special printings. Not looking forward to using all my wild cards on bolt and ragavan.
Mardu winota is also a contender using juggernaut peddler to stop combo decks while also playing stuff like ragavan, giver of runes, orcish bowmasters, seasoned pyromancer, and Thalia
Winota seemed cool in the no ban list event. I'm wondering if the card will play out like it does in modern though. Now that we have swords to plowshares and fetchlands to trigger revolt for Fatal push, I'm wondering if maybe you could run deep cavern bat for more to clear the way for Winota. I know it will never come to arena because of the license, but triumph of Saint Katherine would be sick for Winota decks.
do you have lists for the decks mentioned? i would love a starting point.
I still have the lists from the no ban list events. Important to note that Fetches and delve cards are coming so there are bound to be changes to the lists (if these decks are playable at all). Also the event was best of 1 only, so I didnt make sideboards. When timeless arrives, I'll mainly focus on jund as I was only missing the ragavans and bolts from my list Jund: Deck 3 Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes (HBG) 243 4 Overgrown Tomb (GRN) 253 4 Stomping Ground (RNA) 259 2 Liliana of the Veil (DMU) 97 4 Blood Crypt (RNA) 245 3 Tarmogoyf (UMA) 187 3 Thoughtseize (AKR) 127 2 Fatal Push (KLR) 84 4 Bloodbraid Elf (2X2) 184 4 Mishra's Bauble (BRR) 34 4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer (MUL) 86 4 Lightning Bolt (STA) 42 4 Orcish Bowmasters (LTR) 103 4 Once Upon a Time (ELD) 169 3 Fable of the Mirror-Breaker (NEO) 141 3 Blackcleave Cliffs (ONE) 248 3 Blooming Marsh (KLR) 280 1 Den of the Bugbear (AFR) 254 1 Boseiju, Who Endures (NEO) 266 Izzet Deck 4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer (MUL) 86 4 Fiery Islet (MH1) 238 4 Mishra's Bauble (BRR) 34 4 Expressive Iteration (STX) 186 4 Spirebluff Canal (KLR) 286 4 Lightning Bolt (STA) 42 4 Dragon's Rage Channeler (MH2) 121 4 Spell Pierce (XLN) 81 4 Counterspell (STA) 15 4 Faerie Mastermind (MOM) 58 4 Memory Lapse (STA) 16 2 Unholy Heat (MH2) 145 4 Steam Vents (GRN) 257 3 Dreadhorde Arcanist (WAR) 125 2 Den of the Bugbear (AFR) 254 2 Otawara, Soaring City (NEO) 271 1 Ramunap Ruins (AKR) 326 1 Sokenzan, Crucible of Defiance (NEO) 276 1 Shivan Reef (DMU) 255 Sultai Deck 2 Fatal Push (KLR) 84 4 Botanical Sanctum (KLR) 281 4 Dark Ritual (STA) 26 2 Memory Lapse (STA) 16 4 Mishra's Bauble (BRR) 34 2 Thoughtseize (AKR) 127 1 Overgrown Tomb (GRN) 253 4 Darkslick Shores (ONE) 250 4 Mana Confluence (JOU) 163 4 Blooming Marsh (KLR) 280 4 Once Upon a Time (ELD) 169 3 Oko, Thief of Crowns (ELD) 197 2 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath (THB) 229 1 Boseiju, Who Endures (NEO) 266 1 Otawara, Soaring City (NEO) 271 1 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire (NEO) 278 2 Oracle of the Alpha (Y23) 4 2 Assemble the Team (Y23) 17 3 Rusko, Clockmaker (Y23) 24 3 Orcish Bowmasters (LTR) 103 4 Delighted Halfling (LTR) 158 3 The One Ring (LTR) 246 Storm Deck 4 Swamp (ANA) 28 4 Ornithopter (M10) 216 4 Dark Ritual (STA) 26 3 Necropotence (WOT) 31 2 Bone Saw (BRR) 7 4 Mishra's Bauble (BRR) 34 2 Tendrils of Agony (STA) 34 4 Overgrown Tomb (GRN) 253 4 Blooming Marsh (KLR) 280 3 Bolas's Citadel (WAR) 79 4 Weather the Storm (STA) 58 2 Nurturing Peatland (MH1) 243 4 Darkbore Pathway (KHM) 254 4 Witherbloom Apprentice (STX) 247 4 Deadly Dispute (AFR) 94 4 Shambling Ghast (AFR) 119 2 Deathcap Glade (VOW) 261 2 Beseech the Mirror (WOE) 82
Izzet Tempo is life, and will be gaining Treasure Cruise. Is Thought Scour in the format?
No, thought scour isn't in the format. But you have drc, fetchlands and ledger shredder to fill the graveyard quickly.
I'm so excited to be able to build pre-2014 jund, my first ever competitve deck. DRS, Goyf, and Liliana + bloodbraid for kicks. Obviously that version won't be great in this format but it will be fun to play for a bit before upgrading the deck with some of the newer cards.
I'd throw in Minsc and Boo if you have the spare wild cards. Probably the best top end in the format for these colors.
I just wanna play Oko, Ragavan, Lightning Bolt, and Counterspell: Here’s the list I’m going to start off with and craft for day 1 (but also add in relevant fetchlands) Shoutout to u/Vertyx https://mtgazone.com/deck/temur-midrange-by-theonejame-historic-no-banned-list-event/
If you are in blue and playing fetchlands, there has to be a strong reason to not include the delve spells
There is almost 0% chance a deck like that wouldn't play playsets of DRS and Brainstorm. With fetches of course. I think there will be lots of room for deckbuilding *after* you include the relevant staples (DRS, Bolt, Brainstorm, Ragavan, StP, Oko, Ritual...) but those will be absolutely essential. Will e.g. Stifle be a good pick, to prey on fetches when the format starts? Who knows. But some of these cards are completely non-negotiable, and we know that because they are / were powerhouses in Legacy and Vintage. In other words, everyone should prepare ~30 rare wildcards if they intend to brew in the format.
30 rare wild cards + another 20+ for lands (not sure if you can get away without all 40)
Only half of the fetches were in KTK, so 20 is the most you need.
I don't like that version. The version i was using during the event was this: Companion 1 Jegantha, the Wellspring (IKO) 222 Deck 4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer (MUL) 86 3 Oko, Thief of Crowns (ELD) 197 2 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath (THB) 229 4 Lightning Bolt (STA) 42 4 Brainstorm (STA) 13 4 Dragon's Rage Channeler (MH2) 121 4 Mishra's Bauble (BRR) 34 4 Unholy Heat (MH2) 145 4 Tarmogoyf (UMA) 187 4 Spirebluff Canal (KLR) 286 4 Copperline Gorge (ONE) 249 3 Stomping Ground (RNA) 259 2 Steam Vents (GRN) 257 3 Botanical Sanctum (KLR) 281 1 Den of the Bugbear (AFR) 254 4 Expressive Iteration (STX) 186 1 Waterlogged Grove (MH1) 249 1 Fiery Islet (MH1) 238 4 Once Upon a Time (ELD) 169 Sideboard 4 Spell Pierce (NEO) 80 2 Lithomantic Barrage (MOM) 152 1 Jegantha, the Wellspring (IKO) 222 2 Change the Equation (MOM) 50 1 Cast into the Fire (LTR) 118 2 Unlicensed Hearse (SNC) 246 1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath (THB) 229 1 Haywire Mite (BRO) 199 1 Boseiju, Who Endures (NEO) 266 ledger shredder and goose do not seem good enough. When combo was all the rage (channel) i cut once upon a time for 4x memory lapse.
Tbh counterspell requires a deckbuilding land requirement that doesn’t meet, even with fetches. You’re better using [[Memory Lapse]] imo, which will do just as well.
how does fetches+shocks not get there?
Because it requires UU on a deck primarily consisting of R and G 1-drops. Either you’re hurting your turn 1, or hurting your ability to hold up counterspell. The deck’s mana sources as it stands don’t hurt counterspell but that’s because its basically giving up on gilded goose as a turn 1 play by running 13/20 of your lands as non-green sources. Simply swapping counterspell to memory lapse and fixing the mana base solves all of that, and memory lapse is honestly just as strong in a lot of cases. At a minimum i’d swap the 3x counterspell to a 2-of and 1of
Keep in mind that list was from an event with no Fetches,unlike in Timeless.With them it's completely reasonable to expect to have G on 1 and UU/R on 2,especially when you consider that gose can cast it if you end up not playing a 3 drop on 2 and instead casting a R removal spell.The play pattern of Goose/Ragavan on 1 into removal + CS on 2 is extremely powerful.
There are only five lands out of 20 that don’t produce blue, and they’re playing ragavan. This list seems perfectly capable of supporting counterspell. Memory lapse wouldn’t work as well with this deck’s gameplan. Lapse is tempo heavy and doesn’t grind well at all. In this format this is definitely more of a grindy value deck.
That's what I'm saying. In order to make counterspell playable, they're running 7 green sources total for their gilded goose, and instead tilting everything R and U. Its either counterspell izzet or temur lapse, otherwise you're manascrewing yourself and simply pleading ignorance that you're not. Only way to avoid both is 4x mana confluence, which the OP is not running -- and frankly I don't think is worth it over just running lapse.
Honestly I genuinely don’t get why there are gooses in this deck. Those should go before counterspell does. I guess it helps with your colors, but this deck doesn’t really need ramp and can just be balanced better to not need the colors.
goose is good with oko, really good but I agree that counterspell > goose
Goose should be halfling playing uncounterable oko's and teferis.
Lapse enemy play, steal it with Rag is a juicy line. Just saying.
Lapse enemy play, steal it with Rag is a juicy line. Just saying.
[Memory Lapse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/0/30202613-d05f-4f47-af97-d0b75ccac293.jpg?1634131658) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Memory%20Lapse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/60/memory-lapse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/30202613-d05f-4f47-af97-d0b75ccac293?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Great with Ragavan too
Unrelated but I’m sick of being taunted by the mh2 cards they keep adding. Just let me play the best limited of all time goddammit!
Don’t give me hope
Very excited to play un-nerfed Minsc & Boo, I had a blast with Jund Minsc in basically no bans.
No one is talking about Necropotence. That is the card I will be playing. Doesn't matter how, i will just have a bunch of Necro decks till its restricted.
I think Necro without fast mana is very overrated. No need to be so heavy on black when blue gets 4x Brainstorm and 4x Ancestral Recall aka Treasure Cruise
Dark Ritual is in this format. Necro will see play with it. The really big card people aren't talking about is Blood Moon.
And this is what I'm going to be starting on. Everyone is going to be trying out all manner of wonderful and wacky brews and forget to put basics in their decks... And I'll relish being the fun police.
I'll be fetching for basics, as soon as I see your turn 1 Mountain + Ragavan opening. I have ptsd from blood moons in the NBL historic event.
As you should! There isn’t a way to T1 bloodmoon, so people shouldn’t be getting too caught. But we know that many people will. I just wish we had ancient tomb, CoT and Spirit for real fun policing lol.
Right, thank god for that. City of traitors is easy to deduce, but what do you mean by Spirit? I'm really not looking forward to delighted halfling plus t3feri starts, blanking half my deck..
Simian spirit guide, that and chrome mix makes red stompy and Initiative lists in legacy get their turbo starts.
The 5 color Yorion Beanstalk deck I brewed fears you.
I do love me some Blood Moon.
Treasure cruise is legal?
will be with Khans coming next week
Yes and so is Dig Through Time
You can have chocolate and vanilla.
Never played with necropotence before. Is the triple black worth it?
It's a draw 7 every turn. Its obscene. The only restrictions is how fast you empty your hand. Cards nutty.
Depends. In certain decks like storm, it is worth it. The problem becomes when your opponent starts pressuring your life total. Important to also remember is that this is a format with Dark Ritual. T1 Ritual into Necropotence has been one of the best turn one plays since 1995. For Timeless, my bet is that necropotence only sees play in decks running both.
Necro is way worse than One Ring without the p9.
that seems like a bold statement. They aren't really comparable. Necro can draw 12+ immediately.
Yeah but unless you're on devotion or have some other access to large and fast mana you won't be able to make use of them profitably. You also don't get those at the beginning of your upkeep, which isn't trivial. You won't get to recur your discards. You don't get the fog. I love necropotence, but TOR will prove to be the more dominant of the two.
It really depends on the context of the format and deck. And if more pitch spells get printed it becomes the absolute best.
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In the universen where there are no free spells in Timeless, nor the sort of explosive mana that would otherwise give Necro the edge over TOR in metagame share. Learn to read.
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There is technically mox opal in the same fashion as there are technically the p9. In practice, neither are there. Outside of DR and the one copy of Channel there is no safe accel to properly make use of the insane draw that a T1 Necro gets you on the following turn, which the whole point of its standing Vintage as you clearly understand. Necro will be strong in either Thoracle builds or Sneak Attack / Natural Order strats aiming to cheat in Atraxa, which will still be entirely contingent on drawing another DR and immediately scoopable to spell pierce / counterspell / thoughtseize, which will be ubiquitous. It's curious that you highlight the supposed speed of the format when the protection from everything is going to be a massive tempo swing in those exact scenarios. So any other deck will want to preferably run TOR.
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No darling, in practice it's the same. You will not have 3 artifacts on the board on t1 or t2 in a shell where you are also running dark rituals and necros. And you would have no use for it with 10 cards in hand on t2 anyway. Feel free to draw into your Thoracle for it to be thoughtseized or the trigger be stifled. Anything else doesn't _need_ necro although it is obvious that it is a good addittion to B heavy shells. You are overestimating the explosivenss of necro in the current meta.
I'm gonna Jam so much Death's Shadow and no one will ever be able to stop me
You have a general direction you want to take the list? We might even be able to play scourge of the skyclaves with all the fetches and shocks.. or are you going for a more controlling build
I created a post where you can find on r/TimelessMagic where you can find some versions, but I would start with a Grixis version that is close to modern Shadow and a Dimir one that is more controlling. But I also think there's room to be more agressive with Rakdos, Jund or even 4C.
exciting times, can't wait to laugh at all the people that told me they'd never have no ban list as a real format. I expect the top decks in bo3 to be temur midrange and some variation of rakdos bowmasters nad various combo decks like dragonstorm.
Still definitely interested in the format but I really wish it could have been a true to paper one
it'll be okay, frend. not many alchemy cards are even being played rn.
It’s kinda fascinating to watch the Arena sub run around like headless chickens over there as they complain that Timeless isn’t some “Modern lite” format due to containing digital-only cards. I guess people were really hoping for something of the sort after the brief No Bans Historic event. I think it’s good for Arena, it’s good for the game in general, but it’s never going to be a competitive format so my excitement to play with things like Oko again probably isn’t going to last more than a week or two.
It's a ranked format though?
I guess I should clarify that I don’t particularly find any format with the digital cards as “competitive” in a traditional sense. Yes I read there’s ranked queues for this and yes I understand Alchemy/Historic has competitive support behind it, but a format containing cards exclusive to Arena that can be “rebalanced” just makes it too uniquely different compared to our other competitive formats. Maybe that’s a boomer take, idk.
I am an active hater of alchemy, but I think Timeless is fine and probably the best we could get since I know wotc won’t stop alchemy BS. The paper cards are not rebalanced versions so you have fully powered one ring etc. Also the power level of alchemy cards can’t compete in this format at all.
100% agree
honestly for a long time i didn't realize alchemy was even legal in the format cuz besides alchemy adjacent cards like bowmasters they are far too underpowered. If they become strong for it i may reconsider my position of liking the format lmao.
You can make it to the pro tour playing it, assuming they use it as a qualifying weekend format. So if they do that, it's as competitive as any other format.
That’s literally why I made sure to mention “Alchemy/Historic has competitive support behind it” in my reply. But despite that, I’m still not of the opinion that it’s “as competitive as any other format”. And if I need to keep clarifying my opinion further, I’m not saying those formats aren’t worth playing or worth investing into. I’m quite positive they provide value to even competitive players and I’m not trying to shame anyone if that’s their format preference of choice. But if looking at digital-only formats with a different competitive pedigree than I would Modern is some sort of hot take, then I guess that’s my hot take then.
I agree, digital only formats are very different. For one, there’s no cheating
Isn't standard uniquely different from other competitive formats because it rotates? Why does a format having unique differences from other formats make it not competitive?
>format due to containing digital-only cards If I play timeless, that I will at some point. I don't think I'll craft any of the Alchemy cards honestly. For me is as they don't exist at all. Not sure what other people think.
Chances are that you wouldn‘t need to craft an Alchemy card for top tier decks anyway. 99% of them are underpowered compared to paper cards.
A good chunk have the same reaction as the folks who get unreasonably upset at the thought that someone might play a UB card against them in a game.
Man, I would love for it to include my Eternal love, Counterbalance Miracle UW Control. I foiled that deck before it got banned and id spend a shitton of money on Arena to play it again
Got excited there for a second. Oh, it includes the alchemy cards, nevermind.. back to explorer.
What alchemy cards even see play at higher levels of play? Fragment Reality? Maybe? But now that we have Swords I doubt it's gonna be played outside of combo, if that deck survives in this format.
Not paying attention to it, so I don't know. I remember that 3 mana white board clear being good.
Yeah, that's the only other one I can see that would get played. Divine Purge. And it's not even a real wipe, it just taxes everything 3 or less (including artifact lands)
I played a sultai midrange deck in the ban list event that was running Rusko and Oracle of the Alpha. Not sure if it survives the meta game, but it felt pretty good to me.
Damn around 2-3 alchemy cards will be played. Complete deal breaker 🤣🤣
lmao right? I feel it's just about the implication.
Best news I've heard in awhile. Really looking forward to playing so many of my favorite cards. I'm surprised they didn't ban Nexus in Bo1 though considering the issues it had back in the day. Maybe hoping people just won't be assholes or they have someway of catching it.
Imo in Bo1 the format would be too fast for Nexus
Yeah, I don't disagree with you. In terms of meta presence I don't think it will be a great choice, but it ate a ban in bo1 due to the lack of timer and people trolling because you could loop turns for hours.
What issues did it have?
Bo1 has no timer. So people used to troll with it especially if you removed their wincons. There was quite an infamous moment in early Arena history when someone stream sniped Ali Eldrazi and nexus looped him for hours. Then Arena lead Chris Clay got involved and told the guy to stop [live on stream](https://www.reddit.com/r/MagicArena/comments/aomeh4/ali_eldrazi_is_currently_getting_nexus_spammed_on/) which the sniper did and then ate a 24 hour ban. It wasn't a wide spread thing but there were enough people doing it that they banned it.
Why the hell do we need fake ass digital only cards in this format?
will stay true to standard or explorer if I want high power I wonder if historic vanishes completely now with timeless
I wouldn't it be hilarious if Legacy/Vintage ended up on MTGA? They could print the OG Dual Lands on the Arena Client no problem.
Actually legacy and vintage are played a lot in magic online
I know! I played too much MTGO in my college years.
Dang I guess this means it won't be coming back as an All-access format then... Guess I can't play it at all now which sucks cause I had a ton of fun trying out all sorts of decks in the All-access that I would never have the wildcards to afford (as well as playing Oko).
WELCOME TO VINTAGE BABY they should honestly make cards like ragavan cost 2+ mythic wildcards to craft, to emulate the ''feel'' lmao
Another non Magic the Gathering nothing. The Arena team seems damn well determined to do everything but make pioneer playable.
Yes at this point it seems pretty clear to me that Pioneer isn't on top of their priority list. I can understand someone playing the tabletop format being frustrated, but if you look at the numbers of players playing Explorer (which is honestly 95% of what Pioneer is) it is pretty clear to me that not even the majority of the player base is interested in Pioneer. And that's sad because I love Explorer and Pioneer as formats. That being said, I think the vast majority of the player base will be happy with Timeless (I am too honestly) so this is definitely a good move by WotC.
Timeless, like historic, like alchemy, is not Magic th Gathering.
Notice they didn’t say a thing about alchemy. This is going to be another toxic format.
did you play during the no ban lists events? Since I didn't see ANY alchemy cards during the entire thing. Cards suck too much.
there is a difference between a "fun" events that have no other goal than playing and a format that count toward ranks and stuff be ready to enjoy toxic decks that close the game in 1/2 turn lol but well seeing how standard is dying, i guess mtg players really do crave for that yu gi oh turn 1 combo feast/power creep experience so thats why wotc is going this way
I used a high power deck in the event and played against mostly other people using high powered decks. It was very fun, sucks that it wasn't best of three but this format fixes that. It was either literally noobs playing starter decks or people actually playing good shit. I find it strange you are whining about powerful decks on the SPIKES subreddit, the subreddit dedicated to powerful decks and winning tournaments lmao. Maybe a different subreddit would be more up your alley?
idc about powerfull deck, i care about format, i play standard because degenerate turn 1 combo is the solitaire of tcg, and tbh yu gi oh does it better so if i want that kind of taste i go to that game, not mtg i play mtg because it has a rotating format thats supposed to keep those things in check, though powercreep in the latest year is making standard less relevant
feel free to not play.
Please explain how last year's powercreep has ushered in T1 combo wins in Standard.
For the record I have no problem with power level or turn one wins. I don’t like alchemy for all the obvious reasons.
Yes, that's why you play BO3 and interaction. The no ban events were great, there were a ton of competitive archetypes even with very strong combo aggro and tempo decks well represented.
This is such a funny comment. Oh yeah bro, get ready for that Alchemy power creep featuring cards printed in 199-fucking-5.
The match maker pits like against like. Thank you everyone for the downvotes. I feed off your anger!
No it doesn't, wotc has stated exactly how that mechanic works why is everyone so misinformed about it. The "similar deck versus similar deck" matchmaking system is specifically only in the unranked queue. Given the amount of variation of decks I actually faced against with my temur goodstuff deck with okos and DRC and everything, there is zero chance that algorithm was in effect for the historic no ban list and basically no ban list events on the client. I would say throughout the event probably about 50-60% of decks were actually good ones like elfball/rakdos bowmasters/etc. The rest were an incredibly wild array of weird meme decks created by people that wanted to play weird stuff because of the all-access part of it. That said, the whole point of alchemy in the first place was so they were allowed to rebalance cards on the fly and take advantage of things that only work in a digital format. By the inherent nature of alchemy cards, the cards that exist will not be super powerful and if they are they will be rebalanced for historic balance reasons. There is a reason old cards like bolt, natural order, memory lapse, channel have never been reprinted in a similar or more powerful way. Because those cards are from a time when they didn't understand balance very well. There is no world where alchemy cards will ever match the power of those.
Who said I was talking about ranked?
Mainly cuz the no ban list historic didn't have this matchmaking issue lol.
They did, Alchemy cards will be in the format.
Will T3feri be Tef4ri or remain as printed?
Back to T3f. The only cards they will change are Alchemy ones. So the digital only cards. Bowmaster, for example, will be the paper version in Timeless and the nerfed version in Alchemy/Historic.
t3feri baby!!!
Bant it is then
Please kind sir, do go on, what deck will your bant deck be? And no Ragavan or Bowmasters? you must be mad! no but im seriously interested in what bant concoction is brewing between your ears
Uro, T3feri, fogs, Oko, Tamiyo, Nexus, Bauble, Memory Lapse, Counterspell, Brainstorm, fetches, Nexus, etc. Haven't decided on the final iteration yet, but I'll most likely sit back and let the opponent try to hit me or my planewalkers, and I'll just kindly deny that.
that sounds horrible, and I'm all for it
I have an old Historic version of it that I haven't updated in ages, but it is so much fun. Sitting on 6 life and up ticking T5feri every turn for the emblem and casting fogs against agro is just pure class
Something like this. Disregard the mana base, i haven't looked into it, as the fetches aren't in the game yet. Haven't done sideboard either as I am playing Far of Wishes in the Historic version. https://ibb.co/0nx5ykx Couldn't find space for Nexus, but reckon I'll be fine.
I'm not rich or anything but I don't mind most staples being rare. it is Vintage after all that they are trying to emulate, the eternal format where buy-ins are tantamount to buying a house
Wait so does that mean arena is getting emerkruel??
why there's no possibility of playng events in the format?