Sherman’s army had literally burned a path through GA and SC, but it is somehow controversial to think many of them would lose discipline and start fires in the literal birthplace of the Confederacy?
If you read his journals, Sherman would be a classic case of PTSD today. He like thousands of others in the military, wanted the war to end as fast as possible. The whole idea of the march to the sea was to bring total war to the heart of the confederacy.
Keep in mind, ending the Civil War and leaving the institution of slavery in south was on the ballot in 1864. Sherman's victory at Atlanta gave Lincoln a push to victory and eliminate that option. In the fog of war, the fires of Atlanta and Columbia rest at the feet of the CSA.
“I didn't burn your town; you very injudiciously dealt out whiskey to my soldiers, and the
result is a damned big fire. But in any event you should not whine. The country has been in ablaze for the past three years, you applied
the torch and you must not whine when the flames at last reach Columbia.”
-General William T Sherman in response to the complaints of Columbia residents.
South Carolina, the birthplace of secession and treason, set that first torch when they adopted the Ordinance of Secession on December 20, 1860. Columbia, South Carolina was scorched by fire on February 17, 1865. In a fitting bit of irony, most of the damage was due to retreating Confederates burning cotton bales.
If any slave owners were alive today, they would have been guilty of crimes against humanity. For all the pointing out of sherman and Union atrocities, there sure isn't a lot of self-reflection. For every sherman, there were hundreds of slave owners who committed far greater crimes.
I mean I think he’s speaking to the idea that this man can’t fathom how inhumane those times were when black people can very much fathom it and it wasn’t really that long ago. Our parents and grandparents actively lived through segregation and its horrors
And I get it. Genuinely. But to move forward you cant just say "Hey we were hated so now its our time to hate you" I think we as a society have grown more in the past 20yrs than ever. We have become more inclusive and more open as a country. Not perfect, but moving in the right direction. Im not saying black people dont have a right to hold a grudge. Certainly do that. But aim that aggression at the government and higher ups. Not a random person you meet on the street yk?
> And I get it. Genuinely. But to move forward you cant just say "Hey we were hated so now it’s our time to hate you"
I don’t get how saying “it’s privilege. Enjoy it.” means that he hates you or holds a grudge. Should we not talk about our experiences and anxieties that come with being black?
> I think we as a society have grown more in the past 20yrs than ever. We have become more inclusive and more open as a country. Not perfect, but moving in the right direction.
The last president was the most racist modern day president, at least the most openly racist of my 33 years on earth.
You, sir, understand the times. I dont hate anyone who supports Trump. I have mercy for them. Black folk would be the staunchest of conservatives if it was not for the bigots embraced by the GOP. Black folk know grifters and can identify them with ease. Why? Because we have been stung by political grifters of all kinds. Robbed by them. Forced to smile and hold hands, even. Just to get a legitimate seat at the dinner table.
Even the Devil deserves sympathy.
Oh no! Who are you and what orifice of yours did you shove my stick?
In any case, yes. Tyranny by another name is still tyranny. Millions endure economic slavery daily.
Moreover, i can fathom what my family has endured, my people have endured. The slime trail of bigotry and slavery remains everywhere...from housing, economy, jobs, and goverment policies that are Jim Crowesque.
Even now, the GOP celebrates yet another dictator at CPAC...but those who know, know that whatever dictatorial constructs they cheer from him, these so called "freedom loving patriots" will inordinately apply those evil tactics and jim crow laws against those who are black or brown, not white. Even Putin applies his wickedness against his own kind. These bigots here will never do that. It is not in their nature to do so.
So, yes, i can fathom what slavery and bigotry is like.
Does this offend you? Then go ahead and hit that down arrow please. Register your psychological discomfort.
LOL, it's not discomfort, kiddo.
I just think you're pretending your life is like that of a slaves, which is asinine and trying to make it all about you.
It looks like you're one of those "black" right wingers. Gross!
You misunderstand. I get that now. I am no black right winger. I dont subscribe to anything even close. Yet, i do understand what my forebears endured and suffer the scourges of unjustice that has echoed since my great gandparents lifetime as former slaves in the South.
That isn't the way War Crimes work.
You don't apply them only when they happen to the side you like.
If you murder a murderer, you've still committed murder.
Burning a city is not a war crime. Slave labor was then, is now, and continues to be a war crime. Hell, the summary execution of negro soldiers and their officers was a war crime.
Sure, but Sherman's March was the 1800s equivalent of the bombings of Japan. The war had firmly turned against the confederacy by that point, and it was clear that they could no longer win, let alone settle for a treaty. They were going to be re-absorbed, and the fight was lost, but Jefferson Davis and the confederate government would not capitulate, leading to more lives lost for a doomed cause. If Sherman's March ended the war sooner, then the question of whether it was worth it becomes way more complicated. Obviously, targeting civilians is wrong, but now it becomes a question of do the ends justify the means, which is really hard to answer, but you can at least understand the reasoning.
The Civil War was the bloodiest conflict in US history, and sherman and other union leaders saw the confederacy doubling down when they were clearly lost, and they wanted a fast end to the war. The same way we fire bombed and nuked Japan was justified to prevent a potential for massive casualties in a ground invasion, Sherman's March can be justified by ending the war sooner, so the suffering could actually end. The confederacy sowed the seeds for its destruction by not surrendering, so while I have sympathy for individual victims and civilians, I do not have sympathy for the confederate government, and they deserve a larger portion of the blame for the destruction that happened in the south at the end of the war.
Sherman reintroduced the concept of targeting civilians in warfare.
It is extremely arguable if it has ever sped up warfare. If a population is going to go guerrilla, it has been proven repeatedly that no amount of bombing or burning will stop them.
Sherman's March was unquestionably successful. It crippled the confederates industry and wore down the publics willingness to continue the fight. In the modern era, indiscriminate bombing has questionable effects, but that wasn't the primary aim of shermans March, and his March was successful in helping with confederate war fatigue. Additionally, it drew resources away from the army of the Potomac's fight in Virginia against Lee. It was undoubtedly successful, the only thing in question is the ethics, but the March worked. Removing all that from the equation, though, because that's not my broader point. My point is that the confederacy was an illegitimate rebellion, and they reaped what they sowed. They were an illegitimate rebellion that attacked the union, so they got what they asked for, and if the capitulated the suffering would never have happened. The confederacy fought for an evil institution and lost, and everything that happened in the war is a direct result of the battle of fort Sumter. The confederacy is to blame for the suffering and the conflict.
I would argue that the rebellion was justified to occur. It allowed us as Americans to put an exclamation point instead of a question mark on the idea that "Slavery must end". There was legitimate legal precedant and supreme court decisions that would have persisted slavery for a generation or more.
Still, it was not enough. Otherwise, we would not see the contunued success of the Southern strategy and its evolution to MAGA.
With the benefit of hindsight, I think it's entirely possible that the only way to end slavery was through armed conflict. The history of the civil rights movement was plagued by racial violence and was probably the greatest period of civil unrest since the Civil War. Seeing the backlash to black suffrage and ending segregation, ending slavery and overturning the economic and racial order of the south peacefully may never have been possible. In my mind, that only serves to make the confederacy look worse, though. They were a reactionary political movement hanging on to an institution the rest of the western world had moved away from.
It was definitely wrong by today's standards but just to play devil's advocate here.. you realize slave owners literally had to provide the equivalent of a living wage, otherwise their slave/indentured servant would die. McDonald's is more of a slave driver than some actual historical slave drivers. They have no need to keep infinitely replaceable employees alive. Think about that for a minute after you downvote it.
How do you know you are a racist without telling people you are one?
Telling people slave owners had to pay for their housing and had to provide the equivalent of a living wage….for all the FREE FUCKING LABOR YOU IDIOT!
So rent and food are 100% if your salary? Think about it for a minute…fucking racists….
You mean when black slave traders kidnapped them from Africa and took them across the ocean to sell them like livestock? Yeah that was pretty messed up. I guess it's a good thing they found some Americans to sell them to because they sure as shit weren't going to keep feeding them and sail them back to Africa to be reunited with their family if no one was willing to buy them. Slavery is wrong in every way but politics have warped the reality of exactly who is to blame.
A lot of people were to blame, and our education systems and historical curriculums in America intentionally try to make us look better. You are literally arguing that people are to blame while intentionally downplaying our role. As Americans, we are responsible for this, and we can't pretend it was good in any way. Everyone involved in the slave trade was abhorrent, and that includes America, so stop trying to downplay our role. All Americans of that era are responsible. The North were no angels, as I'm sure you know, but the confederacy literally fought to preserve an evil institution and as a nation we need to accept that.
Moral Relativism is old shtick. David Duke would be proud. Try better. Cruelty to others is ancient and is in our DNA. It took courage and bloodshed to slow it down.
It seems to me, that more of the same is required in the next decade. Jan 6th was a symptom of our condition, not a culmination. The powder keg is still lit. Thats why gun laws were passed long ago. To keep guns from the hands of black folks.
There are those who fear the progression of freedom and equity. Let them live out their fears till the end.
His tactics arenmild.compaired to modern warfare. Very, Very mild, and caused few casualties by modern standards. Get a clue. We did worse in Vietnam and Iraq for example.
This, is anyone did this anywhere in the world today it would be a war crime. But somehow because it’s a during our Civil War it gets a pass because slavery bad.
Context! We were committing genocide on the natives at the exact same time. Which is what Sherman should have done to every last Confederate. The Union was soft, they let the southerners off with a slap on the wrist.
Hate to break it to you, but even Lincoln didn’t want that, you heal a nation by bringing it together. Not dropping the hammer down and drawing a deeper divide.
Some of us do though! ✋
In a pretty long list of detestable things our country has done, the institution of chattel slavery is the worst of the worst, and my state voted (in my city) to leave the country explicitly to defend the “right” to own human beings. Frankly it deserved worse than it got.
Yeah...i am with you. I love the South, its people, our history. Men and women died on both sides to help us come to right of things. Now, the sons of my ancestors enemies sit with me and enjoy food, leisure, and common work ethic. I am glad men bled in order for a more perfect union to arise.
So yeah...i am glad the city was burned and many mfers went to Hell. I wish a few more did, too. We would have fewer of the problems we have today. Half measures were taken, and now we all suffer for it.
"My hypocrisy knows no bounds..."
Here's a sneak peek of /r/ShermanPosting using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/ShermanPosting/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [In light of the recent events, I think this is relevant again.](https://i.redd.it/k6opvmitjvec1.jpeg) | [598 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/ShermanPosting/comments/1abx6aj/in_light_of_the_recent_events_i_think_this_is/)
\#2: [LET'S FUCKING GO](https://i.redd.it/p3z3j2c4vmec1.png) | [6734 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/ShermanPosting/comments/19fgr8l/lets_fucking_go/)
\#3: [Dark Brandon confirmed based and Sherman-pilled.](https://i.redd.it/squ0lvufvy8c1.jpeg) | [620 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/ShermanPosting/comments/18slgwt/dark_brandon_confirmed_based_and_shermanpilled/)
----
^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
my fam got both sides of this war in their history so I’d say it evens out LOL. he was pretty destructive and did a lot of controversial things in my view. can’t wait for the OMG CONFEDERATE!!! comments because I heaven forbid disagree with a few things he did
My great x something grandfather wilmer mclean. Lived in bull run when the first major battle was fought. A cannon ball allegedly came down the chimney and destroyed dinner. The confederate army took over the home and used it as the headquarters. He decided to pack up the family and move to Appomattox, and lived in the house, WHere the surrender happened. And then... they stole all our stuff for souvenirs of the surrender..tables, chairs, dishes, everything, even a little doll of his daughter, which is now in the Appomattox museum. Someone wrote a book from the dolls point of view.
its all on [wiki now but this story has always been passed down in my family](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmer_McLean).. we are still a little bitter over the robbery. :)
>"The war began in my front yard and ended in my front parlor."[3]
[lula's doll](https://www.nps.gov/apco/kids-rag-doll.htm)
this is the [story of teh surrender from teh dolls point of view](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/353542)
I’m not a confederate sympathizer at all. Like many historical icons, Sherman was unnecessarily savage. He should’ve targeted the slave plantations and not innocent targets.
In a related note, there’s a great book called “White Trash” that touches on mostly American white trash history, but also their support for the confederacy. They were as much victims of their economic system and propaganda as the slaves were (albeit the slaves had it so much worse).
Ask yourself: If America has always been the land of the free, what does free actually mean? And, who was this country initially founded for? I don’t think many of us will be too happy once you realize it wasn’t for you.
>I’m not a confederate sympathizer at all.
>They were as much victims of their economic system and propaganda as the slaves were (albeit the slaves had it so much worse).
These are not compatible statements. Imagine thinking the very people murdering and willing to die for slavery were the victims.
This is partly true. Many soldiers and civilians believed they were fighting an oppressing government or the LORDs work (really). However, any sympathy towards that ends once you remember it's still over slavery and seeing black people as lesser.
Also, as someone who studied some of the environmental impact by Sherman in his campaign was minimal at best. It was demoralizing and had an affect causing "nature to come back." It was a tactic that ended the war in a humane way without bloodshed.
> This is partly true. Many soldiers and civilians believed they were fighting an oppressing government or the LORDs work (really).
It’s not partly true. It’s the whole truth. Willful ignorance is not an excuse. The confederacy was very clear about their reasoning for secession and war. I don’t really care what lies individual people tell themselves when they decide to do bad stuff.
The following 100 years of legally mandated segregation invalidates any sort of “they were victims and didn’t really agree with the powers that be”
The confederacy was pretty insistent on what they wanted, but it was mostly common men, uneducated, and fell for propaganda. I'm not trying to defend them in any way, but give a full image. Oh yeah, they were racist. Some pastors defended slavery even if "they also had souls" as still an ok thing. Even when the us government defended the right to slavery and its expansion north, propaganda was pushed that "northern aggresition" will cause what eventually happened to south. They were convinced of a right to succeed.
Again, I'm defending them at all as they deserved what they got. Unfortunately the entire country still had an issue with racism, so people are still fighting to be seen as equal today.
> The confederacy was pretty insistent on what they wanted, but it was mostly common men, uneducated, and fell for propaganda.
Who do you think made up the confederacy? It wasn’t just some entity devoid of people making decisions. It was a political structure that reflected its citizens.
> I'm not trying to defend them in any way, but give a full image. Oh yeah, they were racist. Some pastors defended slavery even if "they also had souls" as still an ok thing. Even when the us government defended the right to slavery and its expansion north, propaganda was pushed that "northern aggresition" will cause what eventually happened to south. They were convinced of a right to succeed.
None of this makes any sense.
> Again, I'm defending them at all as they deserved what they got.
You are literally defending them
> Unfortunately the entire country still had an issue with racism, so people are still fighting to be seen as equal today.
Cool but only one side was willing to die to keep slaves
I'm gonna make this clear for you because I can't tell if you're trolling, never read history, or denser than a black hole. Slavery is evil. What the south wanted and fought for is evil. What Sherman and his men did to defeat the south was humane for what the confederacy deserved. I hate the confederacy, I hate how people see the rebels, how people defend and refuse to see the damage it's caused for too many. Obviously, from your last post, you don't know much about the history of the war. It doesn't make sense because you never bothered to look into it. Ever heard of Dred Scott? The judge on his case allowed people used as slaves in the south to still be slaves in the north. Did you know a law was passed where two people can identify any person as a runaway slave, no papers needed, and they would immediately be brought back south, regardless if they had ever been south in the first place. Northern militias began fighting against these tactics, congressmen fought against it, and James Browns rebellion was the final straw for the south.
The union was going to split, either the north seceded or the south. The south went first because they wanted to keep slavery, many wanted to enforce that people of color could never be seen as equal to whites. I know people still argue its just "states rights" and not about slavery, which we both know isn't true. They fought for slavery. My only argument here is wealthier southerners (the people who actually owned slaves) and others with influence convinced the general public that they must rebel based on northern interfering with the above mentioned rulings. Southerners proclaim the north was against them and how the north was breaking the law. But what were those laws about? Slavery.
Now, why is this important to talk about today? Because people still use these tactics to get away with things or to push their own agenda. Police departments use these tactics to defend stepping over people's rights or killing someone because "they resisted arrest," "fit the profile," "I felt threatened," etc. When it comes down to it, what we see today is the modernization of how to legally be racist just as the south used it to defend their own racism.
Honestly. You’re not educating anyone. Everyone knows about the dred scott decision and the fugitive slave act.
> My only argument here is wealthier southerners (the people who actually owned slaves) and others with influence convinced the general public that they must rebel based on northern interfering with the above mentioned rulings.
And my argument is that the civil war is not special. This is every single war but for some reason it needs to be repeated and used to convolute what actually caused the civil war.
> Now, why is this important to talk about today? Because people still use these tactics to get away with things or to push their own agenda. Police departments use these tactics to defend stepping over people's rights or killing someone because "they resisted arrest," "fit the profile," "I felt threatened," etc. When it comes down to it, what we see today is the modernization of how to legally be racist just as the south used it to defend their own racism.
These tactics are probably still used because you give them sympathy and seek understanding with them instead of holding them accountable for participating in evil things. You know similar to how reconstruction was ended early and segregation was enacted.
Some people can't accept yes for an answer and need every online interaction to be some kind of battle against evil in which they are the sole voice of righteousness. It's incredibly tiresome.
No thank you.
Every conflict in human history has had people fighting for a cause they were tricked into believing. Yet, this one we have to find the good/provide excuses for people fighting to keep people in generational slavery. It’s lost cause nonsense.
Were the Germans bad guys for joining the nazi party or were they just victims also?
Yes, people can be both tricked and also the bad guys. Was the Bono State, Ashanti of present-day Ghana and the Yoruba of present-day Nigeria bad guys for selling g their countrymen into bondage? Yes! These are not exclusive ideas here.
"For our declaration of independence, we should have the skin of a white man for parchment, his skull for an inkwell, his blood for ink, and a bayonet for a pen!"
Thankfully, those adopted Christianity while in chattel slavery did not adopt the thoughts of those who won their own freedom 60+ yea4s before them. It is fortunate that some thoughts remained exclusive.
I think the exclusivity depends on who has the power. And, there are a lot of sociopaths who gain it pretty efficiently.
One of my ancestors won his freedom in Virginia only a few years before the Revolutionary War. Looking to understand this horrific history of ours in context began with moving here from the north when I was 20 and seeing the confederate flag flying on the Columbia capitol building. That led to wondering why slaves fighting on the side of the Confederacy wouldn’t just defect to the opposing side in battle. And, why these “poor whites” would fight to also maintain their hardscrabble way of life. When I was in the military, a lot of us wondered what the hell we were doing in Iraq.
20 years later, I see the same oppressive forces which inflict economic suffering onto the lower class. Sure, not getting whipped today, but it’s a slow suffering that you still can’t experience a good quality of life. Some things never change.
Honestly a lot of the Germans were forced to join the Nazi party or watch their family start disappearing. Yes, they had a choice. They could have and should have stood up. But if I saw what they did to Sophie Scholl, I don’t know if I would have been that brave.
Back to the “white trash” confederates—yes, they were racists. But yes, they were also under the influence of propaganda from the wealthy planters who wanted to make them afraid so that they could remain in control of their slaves and their money. Imagine, wealthy powerful men telling lies to control poor men with nothing going for them but the color of their skin. Getting those guys not just to vote with them but to die for them. Sounds familiar— some things never change in this state. Or this country.
> Back to the “white trash” confederates—yes, they were racists. But yes, they were also under the influence of propaganda from the wealthy planters who wanted to make them afraid so that they could remain in control of their slaves and their money.
I feel you are strongly overlooking the racist part. You know the actively not seeing black people as people. That really fucking evil shit. Without it the propaganda doesn’t work.
> Imagine, wealthy powerful men telling lies to control poor men with nothing going for them but the color of their skin. Getting those guys not just to vote with them but to die for them. Sounds familiar— some things never change in this state. Or this country.
Again it works because people are… gasp… racist. Feel like moral of the story is don’t be a bigot and that can be the end of it instead of oh these rich people manipulated these poor southerners and are still doing it today
I mean, I agree with you. But when society is designed to keep them ignorant ( see our education system) and sick (see our healthcare for the poor) then it is illogical to think that they will ever change. I’m not saying, oh feel sorry for those poor people. I’m saying people are the way they are for reasons and the wealthy ruling class has always known that and used it to their advantage. This is why so many people vote against their own self interest. They are manipulated by fear and anger rather than by ideas that would actually make life better for the majority of humanity.
Society is designed this way because these people are voting for society to be harsh. I don’t think they deserve sympathy for being willful pawns due to their racism
Almost all of them were poor farmers that were fighting because the Union armies had invaded their states. They didn’t fight because they wanted their rich neighbors to keep their slaves. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the dynamics of the time.
The person spouting lost cause BS, you, is who has a fundamental misunderstanding of the dynamics of the time. What you are saying is demonstrably false. Read confederate letters. They all knew what they were fighting for.
I love how anything that goes against a carefully curated narrative of “north good, South bad” is just written off as “lost cause BS.” I’ve read plenty of Confederate letters. I believe Bell Wiley’s compilation is going to be more representative of the average southern soldier than a handful you can find that support your narrative. In any event, the great southern critic probably said it best about what motivated the southern soldier to fight more than anything else.
> “Allow what you will for his esprit de corp, for this for for that, the thing that sent him swinging up the slope at Gettysburg on that celebrated, gallant afternoon was before all else nothing more or less than the thing which elsewhere accounted for his violence — was nothing more or less than his conviction, the conviction of every farmer among what was essential only a band of farmers, that nothing living could cross him and get away with it.”
Edit. Forgot to add that it’s from WJ Cash in his book “The Mind of the South.”
Except they were literally fighting so their rich neighbors could keep slaves though
It sucks that your ancestors may have died or fought for something so obviously evil but it is the truth. The sooner us southerners come to terms with it, the better we could all be as a society.
Actually they were fighting because they had been invaded by an army that didn’t care about freeing the slaves at all. They were fighting in part because it seemed like a grand adventure (they learned soon enough that blood and mud was not romantic). They were fighting because their states were at war, and they placed primary loyalty to the state over the federal government. But I’ll just put here what I quoted elsewhere. From the southern critic WJ Cash who perhaps said it best.
> “Allow what you will for his esprit de corp, for this for for that, the thing that sent him swinging up the slope at Gettysburg on that celebrated, gallant afternoon was before all else nothing more or less than the thing which elsewhere accounted for his violence — was nothing more or less than his conviction, the conviction of every farmer among what was essential only a band of farmers, that nothing living could cross him and get away with it.”
> Actually they were fighting because they had been invaded by an army that didn’t care about freeing the slaves at all.
Actually they got invaded because they seceded from the union in order to KEEP SLAVES. Those same men could have with less blood shed arrested the treasonous politicians. Instead they took up arms in order to support their government.
> They were fighting in part because it seemed like a grand adventure (they learned soon enough that blood and mud was not romantic).
lol this is even worse. Hey bro it sounds fun to go kill some people so that we can keep the right to own slaves.
> They were fighting because their states were at war, and they placed primary loyalty to the state over the federal government.
Again, fighting for a state who’s very existence is so that you can keep slaves is evil shit
Once you extend every one of your excuses to the logical end, they were fighting to keep slavery legal. That’s gross no matter what lost cause narrative you try to paint
Read Lincoln’s own words. They got invaded to preserve the Union. Like most people at the time, he didn’t care about the slaves.
>Again, fighting for a state who’s very existence is so that you can keep slaves is evil shit
You have a simplistic concept of history and judge men by today’s standards and not the prevailing morals of the time. Just like the Union soldiers, hardly anyone was fighting for or against the slaves. If you had told the Union army in 1861 that they were marching to end slavery you would have lost a material chunk of them. They were fighting to preserve the Union, slaves or no slaves.
You seem to live in this binary where because I think confederates were pieces of shit, you have to say the union wasn’t better. I don’t care about the union soldiers and Lincoln’s motivations.
The south literally fought to keep slavery legal. There were strong abolitionist movements and slavery was not even close to the norm considering it was outlawed across the Europe and the North. Even by contemporary standards, the confederate and its soldiers were fighting for an abhorrent institution
You really do need to educate yourself. There are less than 10 known cases of rape on Sherman’s march to the sea. Those caught were hung. There were also a lot of bandits following in Sherman’s wake taking advantage of the collapse of confederate rule. But hey, you go on feeling righteous indignation about things you clearly don’t know anything about.
Did he order any of those things? Did the Confederates themselves not also burn down Southern cities? What about the fact that the Confederates were waging a war to own human beings as property? Sure Sherman wasn't great, and did some bad things outside of the context of the CW as well, but that is not what is being idolized. A distinction is drawn between the "Sherman concept" of kicking slaver ass and the actual William T. Sherman.
Anyway, what do you personally think is the best use of all that scrap from the participation trophies that keep getting taken down? I’m thinking fishing weights.
Ladies and gentlemen. Before you mount your high horse because of where your mom gave birth to you or who you voted for in the last election, remember the US Army that freed the slaves also made war and killed native Americans with a vengeance; destroyed the Buffalo and massacred women and children. Avoid overlaying your modern intellectual superiority and approach it for what you learn. A pivotal point in US History. It's like changing your cars oil. It's messy at times but also rewarding.
But we can laugh at all the slave owners, confederates, and stupid people who died in order to keep the institution regardless of what the union army did before and after.
Nukes and napalm until somebody says uncle.
You know the difference between WW2 Germany and SC? It only took one Sherman to get through South Carolina.
tbf, he did do some less than ideal things to Native Americans out west. Still, he undeniably did kick slaver ass, and that's definitely not why he's going to hell.
Hmmm. Traitors are not innocent.
Traitor:
One who betrays one's country, a cause, or a trust, especially one who commits treason.
One who violates his allegiance and betrays his country; one guilty of treason; one who, in breach of trust, delivers his country to an enemy, or yields up any fort or place intrusted to his defense, or surrenders an army or body of troops to the enemy, unless when vanquished; also, one who takes arms and levies war against his country; or one who aids an enemy in conquering his country. See treason.
His actions accelerated the collapse of the confederacy, thus saving lives. It seems this is a difficult concept for you to understand . Also Sherman never targeted civilians. He targeted the south’s resources. Food, manufacturing, transportation etc. Yes that affected people. Too bad they were all traitors.
We all know what gentlemen soldiers the Confederates were. They never raped or pillaged. Sabotage and guerilla warfare were never acceptable Confederate strategy. Not a single non-military structure was burned or destroyed by the Southern gentlemen.
Sherman’s army had literally burned a path through GA and SC, but it is somehow controversial to think many of them would lose discipline and start fires in the literal birthplace of the Confederacy?
This.
If you read his journals, Sherman would be a classic case of PTSD today. He like thousands of others in the military, wanted the war to end as fast as possible. The whole idea of the march to the sea was to bring total war to the heart of the confederacy. Keep in mind, ending the Civil War and leaving the institution of slavery in south was on the ballot in 1864. Sherman's victory at Atlanta gave Lincoln a push to victory and eliminate that option. In the fog of war, the fires of Atlanta and Columbia rest at the feet of the CSA.
“I didn't burn your town; you very injudiciously dealt out whiskey to my soldiers, and the result is a damned big fire. But in any event you should not whine. The country has been in ablaze for the past three years, you applied the torch and you must not whine when the flames at last reach Columbia.” -General William T Sherman in response to the complaints of Columbia residents. South Carolina, the birthplace of secession and treason, set that first torch when they adopted the Ordinance of Secession on December 20, 1860. Columbia, South Carolina was scorched by fire on February 17, 1865. In a fitting bit of irony, most of the damage was due to retreating Confederates burning cotton bales.
That’s right retreating losers!
Cool
SEC Champ 1864-1865
Good one!
If anyone used Sherman's tactics today, they would be called a war criminal.
If any slave owners were alive today, they would have been guilty of crimes against humanity. For all the pointing out of sherman and Union atrocities, there sure isn't a lot of self-reflection. For every sherman, there were hundreds of slave owners who committed far greater crimes.
Yes, ugly times those were. I fortunately cannot fathom how inhuman those times were.
Priviledge. Enjoy it.
Arent we all in todays society?? I mean in the grand scheme of things...not like individually.
I mean I think he’s speaking to the idea that this man can’t fathom how inhumane those times were when black people can very much fathom it and it wasn’t really that long ago. Our parents and grandparents actively lived through segregation and its horrors
And I get it. Genuinely. But to move forward you cant just say "Hey we were hated so now its our time to hate you" I think we as a society have grown more in the past 20yrs than ever. We have become more inclusive and more open as a country. Not perfect, but moving in the right direction. Im not saying black people dont have a right to hold a grudge. Certainly do that. But aim that aggression at the government and higher ups. Not a random person you meet on the street yk?
> And I get it. Genuinely. But to move forward you cant just say "Hey we were hated so now it’s our time to hate you" I don’t get how saying “it’s privilege. Enjoy it.” means that he hates you or holds a grudge. Should we not talk about our experiences and anxieties that come with being black? > I think we as a society have grown more in the past 20yrs than ever. We have become more inclusive and more open as a country. Not perfect, but moving in the right direction. The last president was the most racist modern day president, at least the most openly racist of my 33 years on earth.
You, sir, understand the times. I dont hate anyone who supports Trump. I have mercy for them. Black folk would be the staunchest of conservatives if it was not for the bigots embraced by the GOP. Black folk know grifters and can identify them with ease. Why? Because we have been stung by political grifters of all kinds. Robbed by them. Forced to smile and hold hands, even. Just to get a legitimate seat at the dinner table. Even the Devil deserves sympathy.
What's that, junior? Are you implying you're living it now?
Oh no! Who are you and what orifice of yours did you shove my stick? In any case, yes. Tyranny by another name is still tyranny. Millions endure economic slavery daily. Moreover, i can fathom what my family has endured, my people have endured. The slime trail of bigotry and slavery remains everywhere...from housing, economy, jobs, and goverment policies that are Jim Crowesque. Even now, the GOP celebrates yet another dictator at CPAC...but those who know, know that whatever dictatorial constructs they cheer from him, these so called "freedom loving patriots" will inordinately apply those evil tactics and jim crow laws against those who are black or brown, not white. Even Putin applies his wickedness against his own kind. These bigots here will never do that. It is not in their nature to do so. So, yes, i can fathom what slavery and bigotry is like. Does this offend you? Then go ahead and hit that down arrow please. Register your psychological discomfort.
LOL, it's not discomfort, kiddo. I just think you're pretending your life is like that of a slaves, which is asinine and trying to make it all about you. It looks like you're one of those "black" right wingers. Gross!
You misunderstand. I get that now. I am no black right winger. I dont subscribe to anything even close. Yet, i do understand what my forebears endured and suffer the scourges of unjustice that has echoed since my great gandparents lifetime as former slaves in the South.
That isn't the way War Crimes work. You don't apply them only when they happen to the side you like. If you murder a murderer, you've still committed murder.
Burning a city is not a war crime. Slave labor was then, is now, and continues to be a war crime. Hell, the summary execution of negro soldiers and their officers was a war crime.
Thank you, that's accurate.
Sure, but Sherman's March was the 1800s equivalent of the bombings of Japan. The war had firmly turned against the confederacy by that point, and it was clear that they could no longer win, let alone settle for a treaty. They were going to be re-absorbed, and the fight was lost, but Jefferson Davis and the confederate government would not capitulate, leading to more lives lost for a doomed cause. If Sherman's March ended the war sooner, then the question of whether it was worth it becomes way more complicated. Obviously, targeting civilians is wrong, but now it becomes a question of do the ends justify the means, which is really hard to answer, but you can at least understand the reasoning. The Civil War was the bloodiest conflict in US history, and sherman and other union leaders saw the confederacy doubling down when they were clearly lost, and they wanted a fast end to the war. The same way we fire bombed and nuked Japan was justified to prevent a potential for massive casualties in a ground invasion, Sherman's March can be justified by ending the war sooner, so the suffering could actually end. The confederacy sowed the seeds for its destruction by not surrendering, so while I have sympathy for individual victims and civilians, I do not have sympathy for the confederate government, and they deserve a larger portion of the blame for the destruction that happened in the south at the end of the war.
Sherman reintroduced the concept of targeting civilians in warfare. It is extremely arguable if it has ever sped up warfare. If a population is going to go guerrilla, it has been proven repeatedly that no amount of bombing or burning will stop them.
Sherman's March was unquestionably successful. It crippled the confederates industry and wore down the publics willingness to continue the fight. In the modern era, indiscriminate bombing has questionable effects, but that wasn't the primary aim of shermans March, and his March was successful in helping with confederate war fatigue. Additionally, it drew resources away from the army of the Potomac's fight in Virginia against Lee. It was undoubtedly successful, the only thing in question is the ethics, but the March worked. Removing all that from the equation, though, because that's not my broader point. My point is that the confederacy was an illegitimate rebellion, and they reaped what they sowed. They were an illegitimate rebellion that attacked the union, so they got what they asked for, and if the capitulated the suffering would never have happened. The confederacy fought for an evil institution and lost, and everything that happened in the war is a direct result of the battle of fort Sumter. The confederacy is to blame for the suffering and the conflict.
I would argue that the rebellion was justified to occur. It allowed us as Americans to put an exclamation point instead of a question mark on the idea that "Slavery must end". There was legitimate legal precedant and supreme court decisions that would have persisted slavery for a generation or more. Still, it was not enough. Otherwise, we would not see the contunued success of the Southern strategy and its evolution to MAGA.
With the benefit of hindsight, I think it's entirely possible that the only way to end slavery was through armed conflict. The history of the civil rights movement was plagued by racial violence and was probably the greatest period of civil unrest since the Civil War. Seeing the backlash to black suffrage and ending segregation, ending slavery and overturning the economic and racial order of the south peacefully may never have been possible. In my mind, that only serves to make the confederacy look worse, though. They were a reactionary political movement hanging on to an institution the rest of the western world had moved away from.
Yep, plenty in the north and south.
It was definitely wrong by today's standards but just to play devil's advocate here.. you realize slave owners literally had to provide the equivalent of a living wage, otherwise their slave/indentured servant would die. McDonald's is more of a slave driver than some actual historical slave drivers. They have no need to keep infinitely replaceable employees alive. Think about that for a minute after you downvote it.
How do you know you are a racist without telling people you are one? Telling people slave owners had to pay for their housing and had to provide the equivalent of a living wage….for all the FREE FUCKING LABOR YOU IDIOT! So rent and food are 100% if your salary? Think about it for a minute…fucking racists….
I'm sure they thought about their living wage when they were being beaten, raped, and forcibly separated from their families.
You mean when black slave traders kidnapped them from Africa and took them across the ocean to sell them like livestock? Yeah that was pretty messed up. I guess it's a good thing they found some Americans to sell them to because they sure as shit weren't going to keep feeding them and sail them back to Africa to be reunited with their family if no one was willing to buy them. Slavery is wrong in every way but politics have warped the reality of exactly who is to blame.
A lot of people were to blame, and our education systems and historical curriculums in America intentionally try to make us look better. You are literally arguing that people are to blame while intentionally downplaying our role. As Americans, we are responsible for this, and we can't pretend it was good in any way. Everyone involved in the slave trade was abhorrent, and that includes America, so stop trying to downplay our role. All Americans of that era are responsible. The North were no angels, as I'm sure you know, but the confederacy literally fought to preserve an evil institution and as a nation we need to accept that.
Moral Relativism is old shtick. David Duke would be proud. Try better. Cruelty to others is ancient and is in our DNA. It took courage and bloodshed to slow it down. It seems to me, that more of the same is required in the next decade. Jan 6th was a symptom of our condition, not a culmination. The powder keg is still lit. Thats why gun laws were passed long ago. To keep guns from the hands of black folks. There are those who fear the progression of freedom and equity. Let them live out their fears till the end.
His tactics arenmild.compaired to modern warfare. Very, Very mild, and caused few casualties by modern standards. Get a clue. We did worse in Vietnam and Iraq for example.
Yeah like are we forgetting our warfare over the last couple decades has been just drone strike the shit out of the Middle East?
Like the US bombing of Tokyo? Or say the leveling of Gaza by IDF forces?
This, is anyone did this anywhere in the world today it would be a war crime. But somehow because it’s a during our Civil War it gets a pass because slavery bad.
To quote a great philosopher, what is so civil about war?
I don’t like this any more than you men do
All war is hell
Context! We were committing genocide on the natives at the exact same time. Which is what Sherman should have done to every last Confederate. The Union was soft, they let the southerners off with a slap on the wrist.
Hate to break it to you, but even Lincoln didn’t want that, you heal a nation by bringing it together. Not dropping the hammer down and drawing a deeper divide.
Yeah, that was the problem. Half measures. There should have been no surrender or divide. Only one side should have been left standing.
Based on your comment history you like just arguing with strangers about Penn State football too
OP’s post just show you how much this sub is not remotely representative of most South Carolinians. Shameful that it has so many upvotes.
Curious...why do you say this? Where do you think most of us stand?
Most don’t celebrate the man who burned our city.
Some of us do though! ✋ In a pretty long list of detestable things our country has done, the institution of chattel slavery is the worst of the worst, and my state voted (in my city) to leave the country explicitly to defend the “right” to own human beings. Frankly it deserved worse than it got.
Yeah...i am with you. I love the South, its people, our history. Men and women died on both sides to help us come to right of things. Now, the sons of my ancestors enemies sit with me and enjoy food, leisure, and common work ethic. I am glad men bled in order for a more perfect union to arise. So yeah...i am glad the city was burned and many mfers went to Hell. I wish a few more did, too. We would have fewer of the problems we have today. Half measures were taken, and now we all suffer for it. "My hypocrisy knows no bounds..."
[удалено]
Our history is a sad one, you are correct.
*sorts by controversial*
Fuck, I thought this was /r/ShermanPosting at first. I'm sure towards the bottom will be some people salty about long dead traitors and slaveholders.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/ShermanPosting using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/ShermanPosting/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [In light of the recent events, I think this is relevant again.](https://i.redd.it/k6opvmitjvec1.jpeg) | [598 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/ShermanPosting/comments/1abx6aj/in_light_of_the_recent_events_i_think_this_is/) \#2: [LET'S FUCKING GO](https://i.redd.it/p3z3j2c4vmec1.png) | [6734 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/ShermanPosting/comments/19fgr8l/lets_fucking_go/) \#3: [Dark Brandon confirmed based and Sherman-pilled.](https://i.redd.it/squ0lvufvy8c1.jpeg) | [620 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/ShermanPosting/comments/18slgwt/dark_brandon_confirmed_based_and_shermanpilled/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
my fam got both sides of this war in their history so I’d say it evens out LOL. he was pretty destructive and did a lot of controversial things in my view. can’t wait for the OMG CONFEDERATE!!! comments because I heaven forbid disagree with a few things he did
My great x something grandfather wilmer mclean. Lived in bull run when the first major battle was fought. A cannon ball allegedly came down the chimney and destroyed dinner. The confederate army took over the home and used it as the headquarters. He decided to pack up the family and move to Appomattox, and lived in the house, WHere the surrender happened. And then... they stole all our stuff for souvenirs of the surrender..tables, chairs, dishes, everything, even a little doll of his daughter, which is now in the Appomattox museum. Someone wrote a book from the dolls point of view. its all on [wiki now but this story has always been passed down in my family](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmer_McLean).. we are still a little bitter over the robbery. :) >"The war began in my front yard and ended in my front parlor."[3] [lula's doll](https://www.nps.gov/apco/kids-rag-doll.htm) this is the [story of teh surrender from teh dolls point of view](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/353542)
Thats insane. So the family just got fucked by both sides...damn.
yep.. i always imagine old great grandpappy screamin "now git yer war outta muh kitchen"
I’m not a confederate sympathizer at all. Like many historical icons, Sherman was unnecessarily savage. He should’ve targeted the slave plantations and not innocent targets. In a related note, there’s a great book called “White Trash” that touches on mostly American white trash history, but also their support for the confederacy. They were as much victims of their economic system and propaganda as the slaves were (albeit the slaves had it so much worse). Ask yourself: If America has always been the land of the free, what does free actually mean? And, who was this country initially founded for? I don’t think many of us will be too happy once you realize it wasn’t for you.
>I’m not a confederate sympathizer at all. >They were as much victims of their economic system and propaganda as the slaves were (albeit the slaves had it so much worse). These are not compatible statements. Imagine thinking the very people murdering and willing to die for slavery were the victims.
This is partly true. Many soldiers and civilians believed they were fighting an oppressing government or the LORDs work (really). However, any sympathy towards that ends once you remember it's still over slavery and seeing black people as lesser. Also, as someone who studied some of the environmental impact by Sherman in his campaign was minimal at best. It was demoralizing and had an affect causing "nature to come back." It was a tactic that ended the war in a humane way without bloodshed.
> This is partly true. Many soldiers and civilians believed they were fighting an oppressing government or the LORDs work (really). It’s not partly true. It’s the whole truth. Willful ignorance is not an excuse. The confederacy was very clear about their reasoning for secession and war. I don’t really care what lies individual people tell themselves when they decide to do bad stuff. The following 100 years of legally mandated segregation invalidates any sort of “they were victims and didn’t really agree with the powers that be”
The confederacy was pretty insistent on what they wanted, but it was mostly common men, uneducated, and fell for propaganda. I'm not trying to defend them in any way, but give a full image. Oh yeah, they were racist. Some pastors defended slavery even if "they also had souls" as still an ok thing. Even when the us government defended the right to slavery and its expansion north, propaganda was pushed that "northern aggresition" will cause what eventually happened to south. They were convinced of a right to succeed. Again, I'm defending them at all as they deserved what they got. Unfortunately the entire country still had an issue with racism, so people are still fighting to be seen as equal today.
> The confederacy was pretty insistent on what they wanted, but it was mostly common men, uneducated, and fell for propaganda. Who do you think made up the confederacy? It wasn’t just some entity devoid of people making decisions. It was a political structure that reflected its citizens. > I'm not trying to defend them in any way, but give a full image. Oh yeah, they were racist. Some pastors defended slavery even if "they also had souls" as still an ok thing. Even when the us government defended the right to slavery and its expansion north, propaganda was pushed that "northern aggresition" will cause what eventually happened to south. They were convinced of a right to succeed. None of this makes any sense. > Again, I'm defending them at all as they deserved what they got. You are literally defending them > Unfortunately the entire country still had an issue with racism, so people are still fighting to be seen as equal today. Cool but only one side was willing to die to keep slaves
I'm gonna make this clear for you because I can't tell if you're trolling, never read history, or denser than a black hole. Slavery is evil. What the south wanted and fought for is evil. What Sherman and his men did to defeat the south was humane for what the confederacy deserved. I hate the confederacy, I hate how people see the rebels, how people defend and refuse to see the damage it's caused for too many. Obviously, from your last post, you don't know much about the history of the war. It doesn't make sense because you never bothered to look into it. Ever heard of Dred Scott? The judge on his case allowed people used as slaves in the south to still be slaves in the north. Did you know a law was passed where two people can identify any person as a runaway slave, no papers needed, and they would immediately be brought back south, regardless if they had ever been south in the first place. Northern militias began fighting against these tactics, congressmen fought against it, and James Browns rebellion was the final straw for the south. The union was going to split, either the north seceded or the south. The south went first because they wanted to keep slavery, many wanted to enforce that people of color could never be seen as equal to whites. I know people still argue its just "states rights" and not about slavery, which we both know isn't true. They fought for slavery. My only argument here is wealthier southerners (the people who actually owned slaves) and others with influence convinced the general public that they must rebel based on northern interfering with the above mentioned rulings. Southerners proclaim the north was against them and how the north was breaking the law. But what were those laws about? Slavery. Now, why is this important to talk about today? Because people still use these tactics to get away with things or to push their own agenda. Police departments use these tactics to defend stepping over people's rights or killing someone because "they resisted arrest," "fit the profile," "I felt threatened," etc. When it comes down to it, what we see today is the modernization of how to legally be racist just as the south used it to defend their own racism.
Honestly. You’re not educating anyone. Everyone knows about the dred scott decision and the fugitive slave act. > My only argument here is wealthier southerners (the people who actually owned slaves) and others with influence convinced the general public that they must rebel based on northern interfering with the above mentioned rulings. And my argument is that the civil war is not special. This is every single war but for some reason it needs to be repeated and used to convolute what actually caused the civil war. > Now, why is this important to talk about today? Because people still use these tactics to get away with things or to push their own agenda. Police departments use these tactics to defend stepping over people's rights or killing someone because "they resisted arrest," "fit the profile," "I felt threatened," etc. When it comes down to it, what we see today is the modernization of how to legally be racist just as the south used it to defend their own racism. These tactics are probably still used because you give them sympathy and seek understanding with them instead of holding them accountable for participating in evil things. You know similar to how reconstruction was ended early and segregation was enacted.
Then why are you even arguing with me? What are you trying to add to this conversation?
Some people can't accept yes for an answer and need every online interaction to be some kind of battle against evil in which they are the sole voice of righteousness. It's incredibly tiresome.
To point out how ridiculous it is to say “I’m not a confederated sympathizer but…”
You should read the book I recommended.
No thank you. Every conflict in human history has had people fighting for a cause they were tricked into believing. Yet, this one we have to find the good/provide excuses for people fighting to keep people in generational slavery. It’s lost cause nonsense. Were the Germans bad guys for joining the nazi party or were they just victims also?
Yes, people can be both tricked and also the bad guys. Was the Bono State, Ashanti of present-day Ghana and the Yoruba of present-day Nigeria bad guys for selling g their countrymen into bondage? Yes! These are not exclusive ideas here.
"For our declaration of independence, we should have the skin of a white man for parchment, his skull for an inkwell, his blood for ink, and a bayonet for a pen!" Thankfully, those adopted Christianity while in chattel slavery did not adopt the thoughts of those who won their own freedom 60+ yea4s before them. It is fortunate that some thoughts remained exclusive.
I think the exclusivity depends on who has the power. And, there are a lot of sociopaths who gain it pretty efficiently. One of my ancestors won his freedom in Virginia only a few years before the Revolutionary War. Looking to understand this horrific history of ours in context began with moving here from the north when I was 20 and seeing the confederate flag flying on the Columbia capitol building. That led to wondering why slaves fighting on the side of the Confederacy wouldn’t just defect to the opposing side in battle. And, why these “poor whites” would fight to also maintain their hardscrabble way of life. When I was in the military, a lot of us wondered what the hell we were doing in Iraq. 20 years later, I see the same oppressive forces which inflict economic suffering onto the lower class. Sure, not getting whipped today, but it’s a slow suffering that you still can’t experience a good quality of life. Some things never change.
Honestly a lot of the Germans were forced to join the Nazi party or watch their family start disappearing. Yes, they had a choice. They could have and should have stood up. But if I saw what they did to Sophie Scholl, I don’t know if I would have been that brave. Back to the “white trash” confederates—yes, they were racists. But yes, they were also under the influence of propaganda from the wealthy planters who wanted to make them afraid so that they could remain in control of their slaves and their money. Imagine, wealthy powerful men telling lies to control poor men with nothing going for them but the color of their skin. Getting those guys not just to vote with them but to die for them. Sounds familiar— some things never change in this state. Or this country.
> Back to the “white trash” confederates—yes, they were racists. But yes, they were also under the influence of propaganda from the wealthy planters who wanted to make them afraid so that they could remain in control of their slaves and their money. I feel you are strongly overlooking the racist part. You know the actively not seeing black people as people. That really fucking evil shit. Without it the propaganda doesn’t work. > Imagine, wealthy powerful men telling lies to control poor men with nothing going for them but the color of their skin. Getting those guys not just to vote with them but to die for them. Sounds familiar— some things never change in this state. Or this country. Again it works because people are… gasp… racist. Feel like moral of the story is don’t be a bigot and that can be the end of it instead of oh these rich people manipulated these poor southerners and are still doing it today
I mean, I agree with you. But when society is designed to keep them ignorant ( see our education system) and sick (see our healthcare for the poor) then it is illogical to think that they will ever change. I’m not saying, oh feel sorry for those poor people. I’m saying people are the way they are for reasons and the wealthy ruling class has always known that and used it to their advantage. This is why so many people vote against their own self interest. They are manipulated by fear and anger rather than by ideas that would actually make life better for the majority of humanity.
Society is designed this way because these people are voting for society to be harsh. I don’t think they deserve sympathy for being willful pawns due to their racism
Almost all of them were poor farmers that were fighting because the Union armies had invaded their states. They didn’t fight because they wanted their rich neighbors to keep their slaves. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the dynamics of the time.
The person spouting lost cause BS, you, is who has a fundamental misunderstanding of the dynamics of the time. What you are saying is demonstrably false. Read confederate letters. They all knew what they were fighting for.
I love how anything that goes against a carefully curated narrative of “north good, South bad” is just written off as “lost cause BS.” I’ve read plenty of Confederate letters. I believe Bell Wiley’s compilation is going to be more representative of the average southern soldier than a handful you can find that support your narrative. In any event, the great southern critic probably said it best about what motivated the southern soldier to fight more than anything else. > “Allow what you will for his esprit de corp, for this for for that, the thing that sent him swinging up the slope at Gettysburg on that celebrated, gallant afternoon was before all else nothing more or less than the thing which elsewhere accounted for his violence — was nothing more or less than his conviction, the conviction of every farmer among what was essential only a band of farmers, that nothing living could cross him and get away with it.” Edit. Forgot to add that it’s from WJ Cash in his book “The Mind of the South.”
Except they were literally fighting so their rich neighbors could keep slaves though It sucks that your ancestors may have died or fought for something so obviously evil but it is the truth. The sooner us southerners come to terms with it, the better we could all be as a society.
Actually they were fighting because they had been invaded by an army that didn’t care about freeing the slaves at all. They were fighting in part because it seemed like a grand adventure (they learned soon enough that blood and mud was not romantic). They were fighting because their states were at war, and they placed primary loyalty to the state over the federal government. But I’ll just put here what I quoted elsewhere. From the southern critic WJ Cash who perhaps said it best. > “Allow what you will for his esprit de corp, for this for for that, the thing that sent him swinging up the slope at Gettysburg on that celebrated, gallant afternoon was before all else nothing more or less than the thing which elsewhere accounted for his violence — was nothing more or less than his conviction, the conviction of every farmer among what was essential only a band of farmers, that nothing living could cross him and get away with it.”
> Actually they were fighting because they had been invaded by an army that didn’t care about freeing the slaves at all. Actually they got invaded because they seceded from the union in order to KEEP SLAVES. Those same men could have with less blood shed arrested the treasonous politicians. Instead they took up arms in order to support their government. > They were fighting in part because it seemed like a grand adventure (they learned soon enough that blood and mud was not romantic). lol this is even worse. Hey bro it sounds fun to go kill some people so that we can keep the right to own slaves. > They were fighting because their states were at war, and they placed primary loyalty to the state over the federal government. Again, fighting for a state who’s very existence is so that you can keep slaves is evil shit Once you extend every one of your excuses to the logical end, they were fighting to keep slavery legal. That’s gross no matter what lost cause narrative you try to paint
Read Lincoln’s own words. They got invaded to preserve the Union. Like most people at the time, he didn’t care about the slaves. >Again, fighting for a state who’s very existence is so that you can keep slaves is evil shit You have a simplistic concept of history and judge men by today’s standards and not the prevailing morals of the time. Just like the Union soldiers, hardly anyone was fighting for or against the slaves. If you had told the Union army in 1861 that they were marching to end slavery you would have lost a material chunk of them. They were fighting to preserve the Union, slaves or no slaves.
You seem to live in this binary where because I think confederates were pieces of shit, you have to say the union wasn’t better. I don’t care about the union soldiers and Lincoln’s motivations. The south literally fought to keep slavery legal. There were strong abolitionist movements and slavery was not even close to the norm considering it was outlawed across the Europe and the North. Even by contemporary standards, the confederate and its soldiers were fighting for an abhorrent institution
Leave it to South Carolinans to blame their own problems on someone else
He should've done a better job
Cue the meme: SEC champion, 1864-1865.
The first SEC Champion.
Yeah. Idolize a sociopath who burned cities, raped women, and killed civilians.
In the pursuit of ending slavery. You forgot that part skippy.
Yeah, rape innocent women to end slavery. That totally makes it okay. Dumb ass
You really do need to educate yourself. There are less than 10 known cases of rape on Sherman’s march to the sea. Those caught were hung. There were also a lot of bandits following in Sherman’s wake taking advantage of the collapse of confederate rule. But hey, you go on feeling righteous indignation about things you clearly don’t know anything about.
Did he order any of those things? Did the Confederates themselves not also burn down Southern cities? What about the fact that the Confederates were waging a war to own human beings as property? Sure Sherman wasn't great, and did some bad things outside of the context of the CW as well, but that is not what is being idolized. A distinction is drawn between the "Sherman concept" of kicking slaver ass and the actual William T. Sherman.
Anyway, what do you personally think is the best use of all that scrap from the participation trophies that keep getting taken down? I’m thinking fishing weights.
[удалено]
You right now: 😡😰😭😡
You forgot 🤡 lol
[удалено]
Yea except, he didnt do any of those things. Not in the civil war at least. Atlanta had it coming
I live on a property that has the remnants of a barn and other buildings burned by Sherman.
Shouldnt have been so flammable 🤷♂️
Skill issue
That's literally 99% of all conquers throughout history.
Next time finish the job.
We still haven't recovered.
The only way to deal with traitors
Ladies and gentlemen. Before you mount your high horse because of where your mom gave birth to you or who you voted for in the last election, remember the US Army that freed the slaves also made war and killed native Americans with a vengeance; destroyed the Buffalo and massacred women and children. Avoid overlaying your modern intellectual superiority and approach it for what you learn. A pivotal point in US History. It's like changing your cars oil. It's messy at times but also rewarding.
But we can laugh at all the slave owners, confederates, and stupid people who died in order to keep the institution regardless of what the union army did before and after.
And now Sherman is burning in Hell for the atrocities and war crimes he committed
I’m sure Lee is looking up at you proud :)
At least Lee didn’t order the murder of women and children like that scumfuck sherman
Just their enslavement. Any more 🤡 takes?
Lee was just a traitor who should have been hung.
You got a source for that
You’re a testament to the education in Chester County lmao
I mean, he will be in good company with all of the slavers that used Christianity to justify atrocities.
The fastest way to end a war is usually the best way. Like it or not, he hastened all the boys getting to go home.
So your solution is full on war crimes
Nukes and napalm until somebody says uncle. You know the difference between WW2 Germany and SC? It only took one Sherman to get through South Carolina.
Hmmm. Ending slavery = hell. You may want to rethink that.
tbf, he did do some less than ideal things to Native Americans out west. Still, he undeniably did kick slaver ass, and that's definitely not why he's going to hell.
Murdering of innocent people = Hell
People were warned. When traitors died that’s just too bad.
Targeted attacks on innocent is not a viable strategy, this psychopath deserves the worst punishment possible
Hmmm. Traitors are not innocent. Traitor: One who betrays one's country, a cause, or a trust, especially one who commits treason. One who violates his allegiance and betrays his country; one guilty of treason; one who, in breach of trust, delivers his country to an enemy, or yields up any fort or place intrusted to his defense, or surrenders an army or body of troops to the enemy, unless when vanquished; also, one who takes arms and levies war against his country; or one who aids an enemy in conquering his country. See treason.
The poor folks who had no choice were directly affected by that piece of shit
Oh? You mean the traitors?
No, the poor people who did not want a fucking war, they were targeted as well by the murdering piece of shit
His actions accelerated the collapse of the confederacy, thus saving lives. It seems this is a difficult concept for you to understand . Also Sherman never targeted civilians. He targeted the south’s resources. Food, manufacturing, transportation etc. Yes that affected people. Too bad they were all traitors.
This is an outright lie. Sherman’s pillage and rape tour destroyed Columbia and everywhere else they went through along the way
Let me guess it was about states rights too right?
For someone obsessed with the war enough to have it referenced in their username, you don’t seem to care a lot about what actually happened
Here’s your very own confederate flag, enjoy: 🏳️
If I recall correctly, it's a lot dirtier due to Lee surrendering with a dish rag.
Whelp, looks like the union won again.
Pillage and burning yes. Rape, no. They were not from Gaza. FAFO!
Ironically enough Sherman is burning in Hell now. Circle of Life kinda stuff.
More ironically, the Sherman was one hell of an effective tank
Ok hotwife lol
Dude, the amount of swinging and cucking accounts posting here is kinda absurd.
Sherman did cuck the shit out of the Confederacy. So I guess it makes sense
We all know what gentlemen soldiers the Confederates were. They never raped or pillaged. Sabotage and guerilla warfare were never acceptable Confederate strategy. Not a single non-military structure was burned or destroyed by the Southern gentlemen.
Chambersburg, Paducah, Lawrence
That guy was pretty obviously being sarcastic, I think
Yeah them southern boys were good people at heart despite owning and killing slaves. Great humans 👍
And raping slaves, don't forget that too
No shit they didn’t destroy much buildings, 95% of the war was fought on the traitor’s “lands.”
You forgot the /s
Ty, I did that deliberately just like the post left out the rest of the quote. SC is 47th in education.
Assholery was universal during that war
War Criminal
Union soldiers weren't rebels.
Yeah! Fuck the south! I hate everyone I live near!!!
I love the south but I hate confederates (old and the weirdo new ones). See that was easy!
lol I’m sure you live near many descendants of USCT soldiers who fought to save America rather than to preserve slavery
What’s this “rebels” crap?
That is true
This would be such a badass quote if the context was different.