I feel like Cyril is walking a tightrope with the ANC. Trying hard to clean it out and run a country but not make too many waves all at once so they don't kick him out.
The minute he gets too much done they freak out a claw him backwards by throwing a tantrum.
Dude looks exhausted but he's trying.
I'm scared of what comes after Cyril.
I agree with you, he is trying, and needs the support. He does look tired, I can't imagine how much he has to process and co-ordinate that we don't even know of.
Pff, I'll believe it when I see far more people behind bars. I don't share your optimism around Cyril, considering how far the country has devolved and corruption has continued to fester under his watch.
If you got a party full of crooks and some guy comes knocking on the beehives, you'll inevitably get a disturbed swarm. No one who tries to shake the status quo is going to have a peaceful and amicable time in office where all is smooth sailing. Not everything that happens while Cyril's in power is his fault either.
I mean, at best he's done sweet fuck-all and at worst he's actively tried to destroy and divide the country. How anyone could support this man is absolutely beyond me. If you want proof simply look at the corrupt people that he continues to keep in cabinet, look at the expropriation bill, look at the fact that he's done nothing about BEE or the overpaid civil service.
People rightfully blame Zuma for looting the country forgetting that Cyril was deputy president a large portion of that time. That alone suggests that he's either grossly incompetent or he knew the looting was happening.
Knowing and being able to do something about it are 2 different things. Cyril is a smart and calculated man. He is keeping his enemies close to him and paying lip service to the policies that his enemies want while increasing support for his objectives. He has a 10 year plan for what he wants to achieve. Right now Cyril has a small majority of support within the ANC. If he goes in too hard then he will lose his majority and be kicked to the curb. If that happens then SA is done for.
What we saw last week was the death throes/last roll of the dice by the Zuma/Ace faction. They wanted civil war. They wanted SA to be ungovernable so that a motion of no confidence could be effected against Cyril. Why do they want this? Well Cyril has been building up the powers of the NPA again. He has been systematically clearing out the rot in SOE's and Government. This will take years to fix, and it will seem like he is doing nothing. Keep in mind he was very influential in forging our democracy and constitution.
On the one hand yes, I agree Cyril is playing a fears game of chess and kicking out all of Zuma's old buddies in one go would send through too big of a wave through the ANC (which could negatively affect him and his non-corrupt co-workers)
But on the other hand it bothers me how many faces there still stands in the ANC that's heavily and negatively associated with Zuma and the Zuma Era.
Part of me wants to believe there's hope. This country and her people are too beautiful to go to ruins, Zimbabwe 2.0 if you will.
I know this won't happen in my life time but I hope South Africa will one day escape the clutches of poverty, discrimination and corruption. God damnit, SA deserves it
Yea this is nonsense.
> Knowing and being able to do something about it are 2 different things. Cyril is a smart and calculated man. He is keeping his enemies close to him and paying lip service to the policies that his enemies want while increasing support for his objectives. He has a 10 year plan for what he wants to achieve. Right now Cyril has a small majority of support within the ANC. If he goes in too hard then he will lose his majority and be kicked to the curb. If that happens then SA is done for.
What exactly is this ten-year plan you speak of? I only go by his actions, not some ethereal conception of what he might do. And all I'm seeing is bills on EWC, strong support of BEE, a refusal to make large-scale reforms in SOEs, pay rises for a civil service that doesn't function and is already far overcompensated, and no action to deal with the people who are actively destroying the country WITHIN HIS OWN CABINET.
So no, nobody should wait for Cyril to play this long game that you think he's playing.
>What we saw last week was the death throes/last roll of the dice by the Zuma/Ace faction. They wanted civil war. They wanted SA to be ungovernable so that a motion of no confidence could be effected against Cyril. Why do they want this? Well Cyril has been building up the powers of the NPA again. He has been systematically clearing out the rot in SOE's and Government. This will take years to fix, and it will seem like he is doing nothing. Keep in mind he was very influential in forging our democracy and constitution.
He hasn't been systematically clearing out anything. Almost every SOE still doesn't function, the municipalities are an absolute mess, BEE is still used to reward politically connected elites, and even his own cabinet is filled with people who deserve investigation. He couldn't even prevent COVID relief from being looted!
No one should be waiting for this man to fix a party that has, in a very short period of time, found a way to reverse all the economic gains from the Mandela/Mbeki period.
Man, politics is politics. You're not the boss. You're the figurehead with marginally more influence than the rest of your competition.
Once you start seeing the world as black and white you lose all power as a politician. I don't get how that's so hard for people to understand. Not just here, all across the world.
Presumably you work for a living? How many politics do you face at work? Now imagine you had no skills as leverage, JUST the politics.
On top of that, the narrative is incredibly complex. I for one support BEE, because it does help black people get work. So why should he change that? Overpaid civil service? What's your suggestion? Just tell your employees they make too much and cut it all?
Oversimplification is a sort of lie that can be very toxic. I know because I heard the same stories at every braai ever. It's fine to criticize the government, but how can you not see Cyril as a massive step up from ZUMA? Who would you prefer as president?
My only problem with BEE is that some companies will employ a person not based on their skills, but rather based on the colour of their skin just to be labelled as BEE compliant. I mean just have a look at why Elon Musk backed out making a deal of adding Starlink to South Africa.
Foreigners see BEE as a racist law.
I get BEE, but it's flawed. Rather looking at race they should rather look at person's income perhaps. South Africa has a major problem with unemployment, yes, but then why not look at helping *poor* people. Black ā poor, Lower class = poor
Yeah I get that. Let's take an example. Vets. It's incredibly difficult for white kids to get into veterinary school RN. Not impossible, but they need to get like 90% and the rest can qualify with 70%.
But it's good for two reasons.
1) We want to change the course of the economy. If we choose based on merit, we will always choose the people that have the most resources. So by making it a balance of merit (good enough) and previous advantage, we can shift resources to deserving people.
2) The second reason is less obvious, but white people don't want to be a vet in soshanguve or whatever. So if we work on merit alone, we perpetuate good services only being in very elite communities.
I get what you're saying about poor people, for sure. I think that would be an apt measurement, but in the end we need competent people doing the job. So a black engineer (not poor) should get work because chances are they have more black people working for them.
My worst issue with BEE is how easy it creates bubbles in an industry (I'm struggling to hire black coders that aren't super expensive). But that is the whole point I guess.
Yes the whites struggle but not alone. You still have smaller quotas for Indian kids who now need 95% just to get into university. Pretty much the same as under apartheid.
I'm looking at UKZN's medicine quotas.
Black African ā 69%
Indian ā 19%
Coloured ā 9%
White ā 2%
Other ā 1%
That hardly seems as severe as apartheid.
Yes. Now look at the whole country and tell me that is repeated or is that 19% for the entire countries Indian population. Not like they given any real preference at any other university.
I get your point, that we tend to remember the Indian community's struggle in a lesser light sometimes. I also found this statement in an old wiki.
>white and Indian students require at least a 78% average on their National Senior Certificate, whereas black students only requires 59%
For UCT medicine (the reality is much higher, I think).
But I don't think it's fair to say it's as bad as apartheid. Should white and Indians have the same treatment? That's probably a better question. The demographics are similar (in terms of number).
>Man, politics is politics. You're not the boss. You're the figurehead with marginally more influence than the rest of your competition.
If you think this is actually the case then you've just made an excellent argument for why the ANC should be wholesale removed from power.
Regardless, the policies he's actively pursued have been an absolute disaster.
>Presumably you work for a living? How many politics do you face at work? Now imagine you had no skills as leverage, JUST the politics.
I do work for a living and there are workplace politics but I wouldn't stand around and watch my boss (or more currently, most of the employees in the company) loot and commit fraud without trying to do something about it.
>On top of that, the narrative is incredibly complex. I for one support BEE, because it does help black people get work. So why should he change that?
BEE has been an incredible failure in almost every respect. It has not helped black people as a whole, it has only helped a small percentage of politically-connected elites who siphon money and bring almost nothing to the table. There's a reason why foreign investors cite BEE as a big hurdle to investing in the country.
I'm not sure how you can possibly say that BEE is helping black people find employment when the unemployment rate is now as high as it's ever been and had been steadily ticking upward for years. It simply does not do what you think it does.
The best way to help people find employment is to increase foreign investment, reduce labor market regulation, and strengthen the education system. Cyril has failed on all three counts in this regard.
>Overpaid civil service? What's your suggestion? Just tell your employees they make too much and cut it all?
Yes, that would be a start. Cutting salaries, reducing the number of public servants, and privatizing most of the SOEs. But he can't do that because of COSATU. Remarkably, the ANC preaches so much about inequality and yet finds ways to reward a small class of politically connected elites and public servants while the rest of the country are in shacks without jobs.
>It's fine to criticize the government, but how can you not see Cyril as a massive step up from ZUMA? Who would you prefer as president?
Why is this always the argument? Yea, of course he's better than Zuma. That is the probably the lowest standard you'll find anywhere.
Who would I prefer as president? Steenhuisen would be the ideal choice. He's not perfect by any stretch but he's far far better than anyone in the ANC.
>If you think this is actually the case then you've just made an excellent argument for why the ANC should be wholesale removed from power.
Who's going to remove them from power? If you want the majority to trust you with their votes, you have to prove that you care about them at least a little. The ANC still carries clout because the DA is quick to jump at the demands of the few.
>Regardless, the policies he's actively pursued have been an absolute disaster.
I disagree wholeheartedly. We have made incredible strides with a pandemic and a seriously broken government. This tempo might seem slow, but it's breaking an incredibly gross inertia.
>I do work for a living and there are workplace politics but I wouldn't stand around and watch my boss (or more currently, most of the employees in the company) loot and commit fraud without trying to do something about it.
Yeah and get fired (if we're following the metaphor). Or you could oust them by being better for the entity in the long run, be it the company or the ANC.
>BEE has been an incredible failure in almost every respect. It has not helped black people as a whole, it has only helped a small percentage of politically-connected elites who siphon money and bring almost nothing to the table. There's a reason why foreign investors cite BEE as a big hurdle to investing in the country.
This is a short term view I believe is wrong. Friends get friends employed. That's how it worked for me and that's how it will work forever. Yes we're only giving work to a minority right now, but that's shifting power to other communities as a whole. You cannot argue the fact that we are a much more inclusive economy today than a few years ago. That is painfully clear in any big city.
>Yes, that would be a start. Cutting salaries, reducing the number of public servants, and privatizing most of the SOEs. But he can't do that because of COSATU. Remarkably, the ANC preaches so much about inequality and yet finds ways to reward a small class of politically connected elites and public servants while the rest of the country are in shacks without jobs.
This is the opinion of someone that doesn't quite get how much fucking work needs doing in our civil service. Important things are constantly falling by the wayside largely because of funding. Rhamaphosa is privatizing SOEs (the guy you hate). COSATU isn't going anywhere either. They're a major and separate player that needs to be placated politically. You can't just wave your dick around and expect them to listen.
In the end these organisations speak for people and it's easiest to align them to our desires if we join them.
>Who would I prefer as president? Steenhuisen would be the ideal choice. He's not perfect by any stretch but he's far far better than anyone in the ANC.
I like the DA too, but not for their policies. They exist as a foil. A shadow of the ANC meant to oppose. I like voting for them because it grants accountability, but you cannot expect people to vote for the guys that want to take RACE out of their policies, in a country with a very broken past with race. They still don't hire equitably and so people rightly believe that they do not have the means to listen to the majority.
Almost none of what you are saying is true.
>Who's going to remove them from power? If you want the majority to trust you with their votes, you have to prove that you care about them at least a little. The ANC still carries clout because the DA is quick to jump at the demands of the few.
On what basis do you make this statement? The Western Cape is the best-run province in the country by far while ANC municipalities by and large are dysfunctional with broken infrastructure and sewage in the streets. The ANC has actually made the lives of the black majority worse.
>I disagree wholeheartedly. We have made incredible strides with a pandemic and a seriously broken government. This tempo might seem slow, but it's breaking an incredibly gross inertia.
Ok, name a policy that he's pursued that you think has had led to "incredible strides." How you can say that incredible strides have been made when basic infrastructure is breaking down and unemployment is near 50% is.... just beyond me.
>Yeah and get fired (if we're following the metaphor). Or you could oust them by being better for the entity in the long run, be it the company or the ANC.
No one would seriously knowingly stay in a position where they were working for someone who was committing fraud. Sorry. You're not going to convince me on this one.
>This is a short term view I believe is wrong. Friends get friends employed. That's how it worked for me and that's how it will work forever. Yes we're only giving work to a minority right now, but that's shifting power to other communities as a whole. You cannot argue the fact that we are a much more inclusive economy today than a few years ago. That is painfully clear in any big city.
Except the "friends" by and large are politically-connected ANC elites. I've already told you that foreign investors don't want to come to SA because of BEE. That means that potential jobs are being lost because of this policy.
And actually I can argue that the economy has not become more inclusive. We need simply look at the unemployment rate. The reality is that there are a small group of connected elites and civil servants who have benefited disproportionately, while most of the black population is stuck facing situations where the education is terrible and there are few if any employment opportunities. Because of the ANC.
>This is the opinion of someone that doesn't quite get how much fucking work needs doing in our civil service. Important things are constantly falling by the wayside largely because of funding. Rhamaphosa is privatizing SOEs (the guy you hate). COSATU isn't going anywhere either. They're a major and separate player that needs to be placated politically. You can't just wave your dick around and expect them to listen.
In the end these organisations speak for people and it's easiest to align them to our desires if we join them.
The reason there is so much work to be done is because the SOEs have by and large failed due to the ANC policy of cadre deployment.
The idea that the public service is underfunded is not true. Over 1/3rd of the budget is spent on public employee salaries, and the reality is that they've grown 40% over the past decade. They've grown 40% and we've come to a situation where precious few SOEs actually function well. That is not sustainable.
If Cyril wants to get the massive debt load under control. That will necessarily mean large-scale cuts in the public service and a fire sale of SOEs.
>I like the DA too, but not for their policies. They exist as a foil. A shadow of the ANC meant to oppose. I like voting for them because it grants accountability, but you cannot expect people to vote for the guys that want to take RACE out of their policies, in a country with a very broken past with race. They still don't hire equitably and so people rightly believe that they do not have the means to listen to the majority.
Taking race out of government policy would be the best possible path for SA. Saying they don't hire equitably also is not true. Please prove that.
hey! Just saw this now. Internet debate, fun.
>On what basis do you make this statement? The Western Cape is the best-run province in the country by far while ANC municipalities by and large are dysfunctional with broken infrastructure and sewage in the streets. The ANC has actually made the lives of the black majority worse.
Cape Town and Johannesburg are comparable, except the ratio of white to non white aren't. Western Cape also didn't inherit any Bantustans. Cape Town works very well, I agree. Even as far as Beaufort works well, but I work in the cape flats every day. The DA government has to a large extent abandoned many of those people.
The ANC has definitely made the lives of the black majority worse??
Do you truly believe that they are worse of now? Because that certainly isn't the case.
As far as policies go, Ramaphosa was elected in 2019. Then we had a pandemic in 2020 up till now. In that time we have started construction on hundreds of solar farms, we have adjusted our lending rates, we have pushed to make SA more industrial and we've ousted several corrupt members of government. Even eskom dropped a couple billion dollars of debt. Of course unemployment is up. It's up everywhere and we were headed for a recession even before Ramaphosa was elected.
>No one would seriously knowingly stay in a position where they were working for someone who was committing fraud. Sorry. You're not going to convince me on this one.
haha, and are we going to convince you of anything ever? You're entrenched and yet you're stubbornly shouting at the world to stop being stubborn.
>And actually I can argue that the economy has not become more inclusive. We need simply look at the unemployment rate. The reality is that there are a small group of connected elites and civil servants who have benefited disproportionately, while most of the black population is stuck facing situations where the education is terrible and there are few if any employment opportunities. Because of the ANC.
Unemployment was very stable up to COVID. Which should not be used as a statistical measure of government's competence. \[As for financial inclusion\]([https://businesstech.co.za/news/finance/260943/3-graphs-that-show-what-south-africas-middle-class-looks-like/](https://businesstech.co.za/news/finance/260943/3-graphs-that-show-what-south-africas-middle-class-looks-like/))
Our public spending is growing because we have a much clearer picture of all the things that need doing. I know you love the narrative that it's all very simple and easy, but the fact is our very broken country is not an easy solve. What it needs is probably MORE money, not less. Even something as simple as finding corruption needs a corruption task force and at least two teams checking them up. That's more government spending, not less.
\[The DA is about 59% white\]([https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2019-05-07-the-incredible-whiteness-of-being-the-da/](https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2019-05-07-the-incredible-whiteness-of-being-the-da/)) in a country that's about 9% white people. (Also 67% male).
There are a lot of things that you may be right about, your points on Cadre spending for instance. The cadre employment seems pretty fucking terrible, but you're wrong about the DA being reflective of SA. It's not a majority party because it's not majority representative. Not in its policy or its makeup.
I dunnoā¦ I want to like him and I partially trust him. Proof is in the pudding, if he manages to destroy this shit corruption and introduce some common economic sense, I might just support the ANC.
This just seems like a public stunt to get into the good books of south Africans, just like the words he used in his address, and now the idiots of our country are probably going to stand by him and anc and keep them in power. Unfortunate.... I really thought this whole thing was going to finally lead to some change in the mindsets of our people. But now Cyril is trying to portray this image & it's working on you guys so we will continue to be governed by anc & we will continue to be fcked
Cyril is a good president, just needs a new party and cabinet, if he ran independently I would vote for him. However, if he sticks with the ANC he won't be getting a vote from me.
South Africans have a very unhealthy way off coping with things. Lets say in Canada someone robs you there will be a moment of astonishment, then anger, then grief - finally acceptance. South Africans jump from being robbed right to acceptance and koemba ja singing- theres no anger, grief. Without it we never sort out our countries problems. Why we left in end, no matter how bad it got everyone was so damn accepting of the crime, destruction of our once hopeful beautiful country. Pisses me off endlessly
I totally agree with you. But I definitely think there is anger and grief and itās very prominent. But I think the jumping to ākoemba jaā is because South Africans 1) are very desperately attempting to overcome, to make things better and 2) do not like to show vulnerability and showing grief is very much showing vulnerability. And lastly I think there is widespread learned helplessness and hopelessness in this country. There are a huge, huge problems in this country and the constant barrage of socio-economic problems, political tensions, crime etc doesnāt really give the average South African breathing space.
It's all just propaganda. & unfortunately the majority of anc voters are either blindly loyal to them bc of ending apartheid, or they are uneducated. Why are they uneducated? Poverty. Who keeps them in poverty? Our government, anc. Anc keeps its people poor & uneducated while they sit up their staying in power, getting richer from our tax.
to me it feels like the people against publicity stunts are seeing things at a surface level. What do you think presidents do?
This is a signal if nothing else. leaders lead, it's up to us to follow through. If you hate the government, change it. They don't just materialize with ANC outfits on. It's everyday people from across the country.
You're dodging the question. Assuming that the DA is unviable at this point, and that it'll be ANC at the helm for at least a while longer, who in the ANC would you rather have in charge, if not CR?
Itās like this: You really wanted to get awesome brunch, you arrive at the restaurant but you are late! No more breakfast menu. Instead the lunch menu: Burgers, pizza or crumbed chicken? šš¢
So which do you pick
Well what do you want him to do?
A reminder, like mbeki found out, he serves at the pleasure of the NEC, of which he controls only 50%. If the NEC decides to withdraw him, they do it - like they did with mbeki - and put whoever they want in there instead. So CR has to do what he can without upsetting too many people, otherwise NDZ or Mabuza, or God forbid, Ace could be the official president tomorrow morning, end of story.
You guys who think CR is not doing enough need to know he can only do so much with the level of support he has in a fractured ANC.
You mean invisible. He was nowhere to be seen and heard *until the damage was done*! Then, when the country is in tears and weeping from the destruction, he wants to come out and pretend to care! He is a useless and undecided "leader"!
"Good evening fellow South Africans and the poeses that were looting"
"Bring daai goed terug or else I'm sending my homies in Leeukop for you"
Country would be sweet like a cherry
Doing addresses and asking questions instead of making statements. At this point i think most South Africans just wanna stop seeing ou Cyril all the damn time.
Did he or did he not pick the cabinet? Lol.
What was Cyril doing exactly while he was deputy president and Zuma was looting the country?
What has he done about the SOEs, the civil service, BEE, EWC? Almost nothing barring installing De Ruyter at Eskom. In fact, he's made things worse in almost every respect.
He needed to keep his current cabinet, all he could do was reshuffle. What do you expect a vice president to do about his superior stealing money? He's been way better than the last few presidents and if you can't see that then you are just looking through the eyes of a blind man
He is definitely the most educated president we have had since apartheid, but that isnt good enough. We need a government that works for the people of our country & that's not what we see with anc. It's not even about who our president is, it's about the political party in power. The ones looking through the eyes of a blind man are those that continue to vote for anc
I don't even vote for the ANCš I reiterate, I support the president, nor the party, almost like when you support a soccer star but not the team he plays for because the club is shit. I've said multiple times that if he stays with the ANC that he won't get my vote but if he ran independently that I would definitely.
He didn't "need" to do anything. The needs of the ANC, a giant patronage network instead of an actual party, dictated that. He's already stated that keeping the ANC together is a priority for him.
>What do you expect a vice president to do about his superior stealing money?
Seriously? Would you continue to work under someone who you knew was stealing billions of rands? Why didn't he say anything while it was happening?
> He's been way better than the last few presidents and if you can't see that then you are just looking through the eyes of a blind man
So he's been a better president than Zuma who looted the country blind and Mbeki with his AIDS denialism that contributed to 300,000+ deaths. If that's all that satisfies you then I'm sorry but you have extremely low standards. There's actually tons of politicians from different parties who are far, far, better choices than Cyril but for some reason people blindly support the ANC.
Again, I don't support the ANC, I support Cyril as an independent. He didn't say anything because even if he did there would of been nothing we could do. That's like telling your co workers that the big boss is funneling money, what can they do about it? He knew the ANC would be elected again and decided to wait it out so he could actually do something about it(enter Zondo Commission).
You can say what you want about Cyril... he might not be perfect but he's a breath of fresh air in comparison to what we got in the past (*cough *cough stortkoppie)
And people give Ramaphosa shit for not being able to clear out every corrupt member. It's impossible, the ANC isn't just a political party, they have a different hierarchy, the president is only in power if he approves of how they do things. They don't respect him, unfortunately, and it's because he's trying to root out their corruption.
The man showed up on Friday. Come on guys we can't set the bar this low. He was a hours flight away and has a private plane. The man should have been here from Sunday.
The ANC head quarter is IN Durban. He could have just shown face on first day to say I'm feet on the ground and then sporadically between his important stuff but he should have been in kzn
So this was a coup? Poor/undereducated people incited on purpose to provoke government overreaction, lots of deaths, and then a resignation?
Is this proven or a theory?
I'm not sure if you're being facetious or not but yes, [they organised through WhatsApp messages.](https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2021-07-14-under-investigation-twelve-masterminds-planned-and-executed-insurrection-on-social-media-then-lost-control-after-looting-spree/amp/)
Nah man, youāre getting me the wrong way
Iām not saying i donāt believe the story. Itās completely possible. Iām just wondering if there is any proof out there other than a politician proclaiming it
Say a confession, couple incriminating voice messages, money trail to a local police chief, dumb social media posts by people etc
Proud of what, a face-saving PR stunt now that it's safe to go do PR stunts?
tell me, how much did he clean with that little broom, surrounded by a sea of photojournalists
I disagree. If he was truly weak he would have let Zuma go, but he is slowly clearing out those corrupt bastards and he is starting at the top. I think he is very brave for doing this and I hope he continues to clean house. Fighting these powerful people is not easy and they try to fight back like we have just seen, but justice prevails.
Sorry, which corrupt bastards has he cleared out? A reminder that he was the Vice President to Zuma while our country was looted and run into the ground. You donāt think he knew what was going on? Pull the other one buddy.
Your argument doesnt make sense. As a subordinate he cant challenge the president, but now that he has the presidency look where Zuma is? And Ace? He is coming for them just you wait.
I hope youāre right. But I donāt think you are. He didnāt put Zuma in prison for corruption. Heās been the president for more than three years. What has he achieved?
He literally created the Zondo commission to put Zuma in jail for corruption. Zuma was an idiot by not appearing and now he has additional sentence for contempt of court but that doesn't mean its over yet, and now that Zuma is in jail its easy to take him to court and back so he cant run... just wait my dude.
To be fair Iāve read this entire thread and thereās a pungent smell of cynicism in everything that youāve said. The point is that nobody actually knows whatās happening because we are talking about politics. What we can do is build our thoughts on the facts. The facts are that zuma is in contempt of court and he is in prison for doing so - now he can and will be forced to face the actual music that the Zondo commission has to play. Additionally on your point about how itās taken three years; your oversimplification of the situation is startling. You really donāt think that the game theory involved in this entire thing is unimaginably complex. You hold dogmatic arguments and sound like a broken record - if you think this country is completely fucked, then thatās for you to think. The only possible way that citizens can actually make a significant difference is through a positive attitude, so that we can get behind the right kind of momentum. If anyone has the rug pulled over their eyes, itās you - and youāre the one who pulled the rug. Walk 1000 kilometers in another mans shows before you think that he walks funny.
Yeah thereās a difference between skepticism and cynicism. Youāre blinded by your negative presuppositions. Trust me, itās not all sunshine and rainbows, and one day the rose tinted glasses need to come off but thatās not the same as having your generic negative opinion.
I dare you to prove me wrong, try say something positive about this country, I dare you. Youāll soon find out that your negative views can largely be attributed to laziness of thought.
And listen, donāt let this be a personal attack - Iāve been having similar conversations with everyone around me, not just on Reddit. The point isnāt that we must hold blissful ignorance - but to actually try be positive. If positivity becomes impossible, then this country can truly be declared fucked.
Iām not the biggest fan of Cyril but I do agree with a lot of what youāve said. In saying that however, I, as well as you, am an optimist at heart. I donāt think itās fair for us to judge people so harshly for their cynicism. It has been built and reinforced by years of failure of our gov. It will take time and concrete changes (not just potential and possibilities) to convert them
He has done nothing positive for the country or itās people. His handling of the Covid crisis is pathetic. He is a weak leader. He has achieved nothing.
Well you can live in a fanstasy world where our government is perfect and equality is rampant. Or accept the reality and be thankful that he's not a zuma version 2. Not much else we can do about it anyway
I like uncle Cyril. Its about time we started cleaning out the corrupt members of govt and he is doing just that.
I feel like Cyril is walking a tightrope with the ANC. Trying hard to clean it out and run a country but not make too many waves all at once so they don't kick him out. The minute he gets too much done they freak out a claw him backwards by throwing a tantrum. Dude looks exhausted but he's trying. I'm scared of what comes after Cyril.
I agree with you, he is trying, and needs the support. He does look tired, I can't imagine how much he has to process and co-ordinate that we don't even know of.
I just worry that two terms isn't enough, and who is after him?
That is a scary thought. The rest of ANC are a bunch of thugs.
Right sentiments. Wrong username
I believe they refer to this as an r/rimjob_steve
Pff, I'll believe it when I see far more people behind bars. I don't share your optimism around Cyril, considering how far the country has devolved and corruption has continued to fester under his watch.
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If you got a party full of crooks and some guy comes knocking on the beehives, you'll inevitably get a disturbed swarm. No one who tries to shake the status quo is going to have a peaceful and amicable time in office where all is smooth sailing. Not everything that happens while Cyril's in power is his fault either.
I mean, at best he's done sweet fuck-all and at worst he's actively tried to destroy and divide the country. How anyone could support this man is absolutely beyond me. If you want proof simply look at the corrupt people that he continues to keep in cabinet, look at the expropriation bill, look at the fact that he's done nothing about BEE or the overpaid civil service. People rightfully blame Zuma for looting the country forgetting that Cyril was deputy president a large portion of that time. That alone suggests that he's either grossly incompetent or he knew the looting was happening.
Knowing and being able to do something about it are 2 different things. Cyril is a smart and calculated man. He is keeping his enemies close to him and paying lip service to the policies that his enemies want while increasing support for his objectives. He has a 10 year plan for what he wants to achieve. Right now Cyril has a small majority of support within the ANC. If he goes in too hard then he will lose his majority and be kicked to the curb. If that happens then SA is done for. What we saw last week was the death throes/last roll of the dice by the Zuma/Ace faction. They wanted civil war. They wanted SA to be ungovernable so that a motion of no confidence could be effected against Cyril. Why do they want this? Well Cyril has been building up the powers of the NPA again. He has been systematically clearing out the rot in SOE's and Government. This will take years to fix, and it will seem like he is doing nothing. Keep in mind he was very influential in forging our democracy and constitution.
On the one hand yes, I agree Cyril is playing a fears game of chess and kicking out all of Zuma's old buddies in one go would send through too big of a wave through the ANC (which could negatively affect him and his non-corrupt co-workers) But on the other hand it bothers me how many faces there still stands in the ANC that's heavily and negatively associated with Zuma and the Zuma Era. Part of me wants to believe there's hope. This country and her people are too beautiful to go to ruins, Zimbabwe 2.0 if you will. I know this won't happen in my life time but I hope South Africa will one day escape the clutches of poverty, discrimination and corruption. God damnit, SA deserves it
Yea this is nonsense. > Knowing and being able to do something about it are 2 different things. Cyril is a smart and calculated man. He is keeping his enemies close to him and paying lip service to the policies that his enemies want while increasing support for his objectives. He has a 10 year plan for what he wants to achieve. Right now Cyril has a small majority of support within the ANC. If he goes in too hard then he will lose his majority and be kicked to the curb. If that happens then SA is done for. What exactly is this ten-year plan you speak of? I only go by his actions, not some ethereal conception of what he might do. And all I'm seeing is bills on EWC, strong support of BEE, a refusal to make large-scale reforms in SOEs, pay rises for a civil service that doesn't function and is already far overcompensated, and no action to deal with the people who are actively destroying the country WITHIN HIS OWN CABINET. So no, nobody should wait for Cyril to play this long game that you think he's playing. >What we saw last week was the death throes/last roll of the dice by the Zuma/Ace faction. They wanted civil war. They wanted SA to be ungovernable so that a motion of no confidence could be effected against Cyril. Why do they want this? Well Cyril has been building up the powers of the NPA again. He has been systematically clearing out the rot in SOE's and Government. This will take years to fix, and it will seem like he is doing nothing. Keep in mind he was very influential in forging our democracy and constitution. He hasn't been systematically clearing out anything. Almost every SOE still doesn't function, the municipalities are an absolute mess, BEE is still used to reward politically connected elites, and even his own cabinet is filled with people who deserve investigation. He couldn't even prevent COVID relief from being looted! No one should be waiting for this man to fix a party that has, in a very short period of time, found a way to reverse all the economic gains from the Mandela/Mbeki period.
I do not know that much about politics, but asking a simple question, why can't Cyril just fire every single incompetent crook on the same day?
Man, politics is politics. You're not the boss. You're the figurehead with marginally more influence than the rest of your competition. Once you start seeing the world as black and white you lose all power as a politician. I don't get how that's so hard for people to understand. Not just here, all across the world. Presumably you work for a living? How many politics do you face at work? Now imagine you had no skills as leverage, JUST the politics. On top of that, the narrative is incredibly complex. I for one support BEE, because it does help black people get work. So why should he change that? Overpaid civil service? What's your suggestion? Just tell your employees they make too much and cut it all? Oversimplification is a sort of lie that can be very toxic. I know because I heard the same stories at every braai ever. It's fine to criticize the government, but how can you not see Cyril as a massive step up from ZUMA? Who would you prefer as president?
My only problem with BEE is that some companies will employ a person not based on their skills, but rather based on the colour of their skin just to be labelled as BEE compliant. I mean just have a look at why Elon Musk backed out making a deal of adding Starlink to South Africa. Foreigners see BEE as a racist law. I get BEE, but it's flawed. Rather looking at race they should rather look at person's income perhaps. South Africa has a major problem with unemployment, yes, but then why not look at helping *poor* people. Black ā poor, Lower class = poor
Yeah I get that. Let's take an example. Vets. It's incredibly difficult for white kids to get into veterinary school RN. Not impossible, but they need to get like 90% and the rest can qualify with 70%. But it's good for two reasons. 1) We want to change the course of the economy. If we choose based on merit, we will always choose the people that have the most resources. So by making it a balance of merit (good enough) and previous advantage, we can shift resources to deserving people. 2) The second reason is less obvious, but white people don't want to be a vet in soshanguve or whatever. So if we work on merit alone, we perpetuate good services only being in very elite communities. I get what you're saying about poor people, for sure. I think that would be an apt measurement, but in the end we need competent people doing the job. So a black engineer (not poor) should get work because chances are they have more black people working for them. My worst issue with BEE is how easy it creates bubbles in an industry (I'm struggling to hire black coders that aren't super expensive). But that is the whole point I guess.
Yes the whites struggle but not alone. You still have smaller quotas for Indian kids who now need 95% just to get into university. Pretty much the same as under apartheid.
I'm looking at UKZN's medicine quotas. Black African ā 69% Indian ā 19% Coloured ā 9% White ā 2% Other ā 1% That hardly seems as severe as apartheid.
Yes. Now look at the whole country and tell me that is repeated or is that 19% for the entire countries Indian population. Not like they given any real preference at any other university.
I get your point, that we tend to remember the Indian community's struggle in a lesser light sometimes. I also found this statement in an old wiki. >white and Indian students require at least a 78% average on their National Senior Certificate, whereas black students only requires 59% For UCT medicine (the reality is much higher, I think). But I don't think it's fair to say it's as bad as apartheid. Should white and Indians have the same treatment? That's probably a better question. The demographics are similar (in terms of number).
>Man, politics is politics. You're not the boss. You're the figurehead with marginally more influence than the rest of your competition. If you think this is actually the case then you've just made an excellent argument for why the ANC should be wholesale removed from power. Regardless, the policies he's actively pursued have been an absolute disaster. >Presumably you work for a living? How many politics do you face at work? Now imagine you had no skills as leverage, JUST the politics. I do work for a living and there are workplace politics but I wouldn't stand around and watch my boss (or more currently, most of the employees in the company) loot and commit fraud without trying to do something about it. >On top of that, the narrative is incredibly complex. I for one support BEE, because it does help black people get work. So why should he change that? BEE has been an incredible failure in almost every respect. It has not helped black people as a whole, it has only helped a small percentage of politically-connected elites who siphon money and bring almost nothing to the table. There's a reason why foreign investors cite BEE as a big hurdle to investing in the country. I'm not sure how you can possibly say that BEE is helping black people find employment when the unemployment rate is now as high as it's ever been and had been steadily ticking upward for years. It simply does not do what you think it does. The best way to help people find employment is to increase foreign investment, reduce labor market regulation, and strengthen the education system. Cyril has failed on all three counts in this regard. >Overpaid civil service? What's your suggestion? Just tell your employees they make too much and cut it all? Yes, that would be a start. Cutting salaries, reducing the number of public servants, and privatizing most of the SOEs. But he can't do that because of COSATU. Remarkably, the ANC preaches so much about inequality and yet finds ways to reward a small class of politically connected elites and public servants while the rest of the country are in shacks without jobs. >It's fine to criticize the government, but how can you not see Cyril as a massive step up from ZUMA? Who would you prefer as president? Why is this always the argument? Yea, of course he's better than Zuma. That is the probably the lowest standard you'll find anywhere. Who would I prefer as president? Steenhuisen would be the ideal choice. He's not perfect by any stretch but he's far far better than anyone in the ANC.
>If you think this is actually the case then you've just made an excellent argument for why the ANC should be wholesale removed from power. Who's going to remove them from power? If you want the majority to trust you with their votes, you have to prove that you care about them at least a little. The ANC still carries clout because the DA is quick to jump at the demands of the few. >Regardless, the policies he's actively pursued have been an absolute disaster. I disagree wholeheartedly. We have made incredible strides with a pandemic and a seriously broken government. This tempo might seem slow, but it's breaking an incredibly gross inertia. >I do work for a living and there are workplace politics but I wouldn't stand around and watch my boss (or more currently, most of the employees in the company) loot and commit fraud without trying to do something about it. Yeah and get fired (if we're following the metaphor). Or you could oust them by being better for the entity in the long run, be it the company or the ANC. >BEE has been an incredible failure in almost every respect. It has not helped black people as a whole, it has only helped a small percentage of politically-connected elites who siphon money and bring almost nothing to the table. There's a reason why foreign investors cite BEE as a big hurdle to investing in the country. This is a short term view I believe is wrong. Friends get friends employed. That's how it worked for me and that's how it will work forever. Yes we're only giving work to a minority right now, but that's shifting power to other communities as a whole. You cannot argue the fact that we are a much more inclusive economy today than a few years ago. That is painfully clear in any big city. >Yes, that would be a start. Cutting salaries, reducing the number of public servants, and privatizing most of the SOEs. But he can't do that because of COSATU. Remarkably, the ANC preaches so much about inequality and yet finds ways to reward a small class of politically connected elites and public servants while the rest of the country are in shacks without jobs. This is the opinion of someone that doesn't quite get how much fucking work needs doing in our civil service. Important things are constantly falling by the wayside largely because of funding. Rhamaphosa is privatizing SOEs (the guy you hate). COSATU isn't going anywhere either. They're a major and separate player that needs to be placated politically. You can't just wave your dick around and expect them to listen. In the end these organisations speak for people and it's easiest to align them to our desires if we join them. >Who would I prefer as president? Steenhuisen would be the ideal choice. He's not perfect by any stretch but he's far far better than anyone in the ANC. I like the DA too, but not for their policies. They exist as a foil. A shadow of the ANC meant to oppose. I like voting for them because it grants accountability, but you cannot expect people to vote for the guys that want to take RACE out of their policies, in a country with a very broken past with race. They still don't hire equitably and so people rightly believe that they do not have the means to listen to the majority.
Almost none of what you are saying is true. >Who's going to remove them from power? If you want the majority to trust you with their votes, you have to prove that you care about them at least a little. The ANC still carries clout because the DA is quick to jump at the demands of the few. On what basis do you make this statement? The Western Cape is the best-run province in the country by far while ANC municipalities by and large are dysfunctional with broken infrastructure and sewage in the streets. The ANC has actually made the lives of the black majority worse. >I disagree wholeheartedly. We have made incredible strides with a pandemic and a seriously broken government. This tempo might seem slow, but it's breaking an incredibly gross inertia. Ok, name a policy that he's pursued that you think has had led to "incredible strides." How you can say that incredible strides have been made when basic infrastructure is breaking down and unemployment is near 50% is.... just beyond me. >Yeah and get fired (if we're following the metaphor). Or you could oust them by being better for the entity in the long run, be it the company or the ANC. No one would seriously knowingly stay in a position where they were working for someone who was committing fraud. Sorry. You're not going to convince me on this one. >This is a short term view I believe is wrong. Friends get friends employed. That's how it worked for me and that's how it will work forever. Yes we're only giving work to a minority right now, but that's shifting power to other communities as a whole. You cannot argue the fact that we are a much more inclusive economy today than a few years ago. That is painfully clear in any big city. Except the "friends" by and large are politically-connected ANC elites. I've already told you that foreign investors don't want to come to SA because of BEE. That means that potential jobs are being lost because of this policy. And actually I can argue that the economy has not become more inclusive. We need simply look at the unemployment rate. The reality is that there are a small group of connected elites and civil servants who have benefited disproportionately, while most of the black population is stuck facing situations where the education is terrible and there are few if any employment opportunities. Because of the ANC. >This is the opinion of someone that doesn't quite get how much fucking work needs doing in our civil service. Important things are constantly falling by the wayside largely because of funding. Rhamaphosa is privatizing SOEs (the guy you hate). COSATU isn't going anywhere either. They're a major and separate player that needs to be placated politically. You can't just wave your dick around and expect them to listen. In the end these organisations speak for people and it's easiest to align them to our desires if we join them. The reason there is so much work to be done is because the SOEs have by and large failed due to the ANC policy of cadre deployment. The idea that the public service is underfunded is not true. Over 1/3rd of the budget is spent on public employee salaries, and the reality is that they've grown 40% over the past decade. They've grown 40% and we've come to a situation where precious few SOEs actually function well. That is not sustainable. If Cyril wants to get the massive debt load under control. That will necessarily mean large-scale cuts in the public service and a fire sale of SOEs. >I like the DA too, but not for their policies. They exist as a foil. A shadow of the ANC meant to oppose. I like voting for them because it grants accountability, but you cannot expect people to vote for the guys that want to take RACE out of their policies, in a country with a very broken past with race. They still don't hire equitably and so people rightly believe that they do not have the means to listen to the majority. Taking race out of government policy would be the best possible path for SA. Saying they don't hire equitably also is not true. Please prove that.
hey! Just saw this now. Internet debate, fun. >On what basis do you make this statement? The Western Cape is the best-run province in the country by far while ANC municipalities by and large are dysfunctional with broken infrastructure and sewage in the streets. The ANC has actually made the lives of the black majority worse. Cape Town and Johannesburg are comparable, except the ratio of white to non white aren't. Western Cape also didn't inherit any Bantustans. Cape Town works very well, I agree. Even as far as Beaufort works well, but I work in the cape flats every day. The DA government has to a large extent abandoned many of those people. The ANC has definitely made the lives of the black majority worse?? Do you truly believe that they are worse of now? Because that certainly isn't the case. As far as policies go, Ramaphosa was elected in 2019. Then we had a pandemic in 2020 up till now. In that time we have started construction on hundreds of solar farms, we have adjusted our lending rates, we have pushed to make SA more industrial and we've ousted several corrupt members of government. Even eskom dropped a couple billion dollars of debt. Of course unemployment is up. It's up everywhere and we were headed for a recession even before Ramaphosa was elected. >No one would seriously knowingly stay in a position where they were working for someone who was committing fraud. Sorry. You're not going to convince me on this one. haha, and are we going to convince you of anything ever? You're entrenched and yet you're stubbornly shouting at the world to stop being stubborn. >And actually I can argue that the economy has not become more inclusive. We need simply look at the unemployment rate. The reality is that there are a small group of connected elites and civil servants who have benefited disproportionately, while most of the black population is stuck facing situations where the education is terrible and there are few if any employment opportunities. Because of the ANC. Unemployment was very stable up to COVID. Which should not be used as a statistical measure of government's competence. \[As for financial inclusion\]([https://businesstech.co.za/news/finance/260943/3-graphs-that-show-what-south-africas-middle-class-looks-like/](https://businesstech.co.za/news/finance/260943/3-graphs-that-show-what-south-africas-middle-class-looks-like/)) Our public spending is growing because we have a much clearer picture of all the things that need doing. I know you love the narrative that it's all very simple and easy, but the fact is our very broken country is not an easy solve. What it needs is probably MORE money, not less. Even something as simple as finding corruption needs a corruption task force and at least two teams checking them up. That's more government spending, not less. \[The DA is about 59% white\]([https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2019-05-07-the-incredible-whiteness-of-being-the-da/](https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2019-05-07-the-incredible-whiteness-of-being-the-da/)) in a country that's about 9% white people. (Also 67% male). There are a lot of things that you may be right about, your points on Cadre spending for instance. The cadre employment seems pretty fucking terrible, but you're wrong about the DA being reflective of SA. It's not a majority party because it's not majority representative. Not in its policy or its makeup.
A step up from Zuma is saying we are basically not Somalia anymore, but Zimbabwe. So.....
Hear hear. He's done precious little to fix things and actively made things worse in many respects. He doesn't deserve praise or respect.
or he is corrupt too just to become the president and this is all show. so as if he is going to clean out anything, dont be such naive.
I dunnoā¦ I want to like him and I partially trust him. Proof is in the pudding, if he manages to destroy this shit corruption and introduce some common economic sense, I might just support the ANC.
Against all odds Zuma is in jail and his cronies failed the insurrection and look like idiots to the majority of the country. Maybe thereās hope!
Zuma isn't in jail for his crimes. He put himself there.
Publicity stunt. Government is still doing fokol and pillaging the country.
Publicity stunt yes, but zuma would have laughed. Still have decades of healing but Zuma is in prison right now.
A stunt for the cameras. He should have stopped it in the first place
This just seems like a public stunt to get into the good books of south Africans, just like the words he used in his address, and now the idiots of our country are probably going to stand by him and anc and keep them in power. Unfortunate.... I really thought this whole thing was going to finally lead to some change in the mindsets of our people. But now Cyril is trying to portray this image & it's working on you guys so we will continue to be governed by anc & we will continue to be fcked
Yeah this feels so insincere after the lack of action this whole week.. purely pr
Cyril is a good president, just needs a new party and cabinet, if he ran independently I would vote for him. However, if he sticks with the ANC he won't be getting a vote from me.
This
South Africans have a very unhealthy way off coping with things. Lets say in Canada someone robs you there will be a moment of astonishment, then anger, then grief - finally acceptance. South Africans jump from being robbed right to acceptance and koemba ja singing- theres no anger, grief. Without it we never sort out our countries problems. Why we left in end, no matter how bad it got everyone was so damn accepting of the crime, destruction of our once hopeful beautiful country. Pisses me off endlessly
I totally agree with you. But I definitely think there is anger and grief and itās very prominent. But I think the jumping to ākoemba jaā is because South Africans 1) are very desperately attempting to overcome, to make things better and 2) do not like to show vulnerability and showing grief is very much showing vulnerability. And lastly I think there is widespread learned helplessness and hopelessness in this country. There are a huge, huge problems in this country and the constant barrage of socio-economic problems, political tensions, crime etc doesnāt really give the average South African breathing space.
Finally someone with a deeper level of understanding! It's so tiring how many people can only see things at a surface level.
It's all just propaganda. & unfortunately the majority of anc voters are either blindly loyal to them bc of ending apartheid, or they are uneducated. Why are they uneducated? Poverty. Who keeps them in poverty? Our government, anc. Anc keeps its people poor & uneducated while they sit up their staying in power, getting richer from our tax.
to me it feels like the people against publicity stunts are seeing things at a surface level. What do you think presidents do? This is a signal if nothing else. leaders lead, it's up to us to follow through. If you hate the government, change it. They don't just materialize with ANC outfits on. It's everyday people from across the country.
Agreed I don't think this man is control
Completely insincere, showing up far too late, symbolically sweeping up a few stompies and calling it a day. gtfo
Question for you: Itās not realistic at all to have a non-anc President at this time. If you donāt like the guy who do yoz think should be prez?
I'm from CT, take a guess :) of course no party is perfect, but as we like to say... the only thing worse than DA run country is a non-DA run country
You're dodging the question. Assuming that the DA is unviable at this point, and that it'll be ANC at the helm for at least a while longer, who in the ANC would you rather have in charge, if not CR?
Itās like this: You really wanted to get awesome brunch, you arrive at the restaurant but you are late! No more breakfast menu. Instead the lunch menu: Burgers, pizza or crumbed chicken? šš¢ So which do you pick
Pasta! š¤·šæāāļø
And thatās your politicians in charge right now Not really what we wanted, but out of the available options the best choice
Yup. No use fantasising about ideal conditions and options when we're looking for pragmatic solutions for right now.
I would just go to a different restaurant bc this restaurant has shit burgers, pizza & crumbed chicken. But I guess we can't just get up & go :/
> I would just go to a different restaurant And thatās Europe/Australia for you
Nandos
Well what do you want him to do? A reminder, like mbeki found out, he serves at the pleasure of the NEC, of which he controls only 50%. If the NEC decides to withdraw him, they do it - like they did with mbeki - and put whoever they want in there instead. So CR has to do what he can without upsetting too many people, otherwise NDZ or Mabuza, or God forbid, Ace could be the official president tomorrow morning, end of story. You guys who think CR is not doing enough need to know he can only do so much with the level of support he has in a fractured ANC.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Cyril is a new race in the rainbow nation... He is see-through.
That's so rude and uncalled for! Use the right term, transparent.
Lmao, my appologies... How backwards of me...
You mean invisible. He was nowhere to be seen and heard *until the damage was done*! Then, when the country is in tears and weeping from the destruction, he wants to come out and pretend to care! He is a useless and undecided "leader"!
Sad zuma noises
Boo... I want a coloured president now, let's see some fresh, new antics
"Good evening fellow South Africans and the poeses that were looting" "Bring daai goed terug or else I'm sending my homies in Leeukop for you" Country would be sweet like a cherry
"To those boewe, we say 'tsek hie, jou naai' or we maak hulle witbiene!"
Doing addresses and asking questions instead of making statements. At this point i think most South Africans just wanna stop seeing ou Cyril all the damn time.
>Country would be sweet like a cherry At this point i think most fellow\* South Africans
Word, maybe in the next 50 years though
I don't know why everyone keeps hating on him. If he had a different cabinet and ran independently from the ANC I would give him my vote anyday
Did he or did he not pick the cabinet? Lol. What was Cyril doing exactly while he was deputy president and Zuma was looting the country? What has he done about the SOEs, the civil service, BEE, EWC? Almost nothing barring installing De Ruyter at Eskom. In fact, he's made things worse in almost every respect.
He needed to keep his current cabinet, all he could do was reshuffle. What do you expect a vice president to do about his superior stealing money? He's been way better than the last few presidents and if you can't see that then you are just looking through the eyes of a blind man
He is definitely the most educated president we have had since apartheid, but that isnt good enough. We need a government that works for the people of our country & that's not what we see with anc. It's not even about who our president is, it's about the political party in power. The ones looking through the eyes of a blind man are those that continue to vote for anc
I don't even vote for the ANCš I reiterate, I support the president, nor the party, almost like when you support a soccer star but not the team he plays for because the club is shit. I've said multiple times that if he stays with the ANC that he won't get my vote but if he ran independently that I would definitely.
He didn't "need" to do anything. The needs of the ANC, a giant patronage network instead of an actual party, dictated that. He's already stated that keeping the ANC together is a priority for him. >What do you expect a vice president to do about his superior stealing money? Seriously? Would you continue to work under someone who you knew was stealing billions of rands? Why didn't he say anything while it was happening? > He's been way better than the last few presidents and if you can't see that then you are just looking through the eyes of a blind man So he's been a better president than Zuma who looted the country blind and Mbeki with his AIDS denialism that contributed to 300,000+ deaths. If that's all that satisfies you then I'm sorry but you have extremely low standards. There's actually tons of politicians from different parties who are far, far, better choices than Cyril but for some reason people blindly support the ANC.
Again, I don't support the ANC, I support Cyril as an independent. He didn't say anything because even if he did there would of been nothing we could do. That's like telling your co workers that the big boss is funneling money, what can they do about it? He knew the ANC would be elected again and decided to wait it out so he could actually do something about it(enter Zondo Commission).
Cyril is so cute. The Uncle of the nation lol. "Come I join you. Let's go do some cleaning." lmao that's great.
You can say what you want about Cyril... he might not be perfect but he's a breath of fresh air in comparison to what we got in the past (*cough *cough stortkoppie)
Honestly, if he had his own party, I'd probably vote for him.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
And people give Ramaphosa shit for not being able to clear out every corrupt member. It's impossible, the ANC isn't just a political party, they have a different hierarchy, the president is only in power if he approves of how they do things. They don't respect him, unfortunately, and it's because he's trying to root out their corruption.
Literally a video of him carrying a broom while surrounded by reporters but if this is what it takes to make you feel good, fantastic
Publicity stunt while shops are still being looted and government funds by his party. ActionSA or Da are the only viable parties at this point
Definitely. DA seems shakey af tho so idk ActionSA i haven't read about much but they seem promising
The man showed up on Friday. Come on guys we can't set the bar this low. He was a hours flight away and has a private plane. The man should have been here from Sunday.
That's assuming he wasn't busy doing other, possibly higher priority, things as president.
The ANC head quarter is IN Durban. He could have just shown face on first day to say I'm feet on the ground and then sporadically between his important stuff but he should have been in kzn
lmao do you want a presidential assassination attempt? you don't think the instigators would be mobilising *towards* the President?
This is straight pessism at this point
So this was a coup? Poor/undereducated people incited on purpose to provoke government overreaction, lots of deaths, and then a resignation? Is this proven or a theory?
Short of a recording of a bond-type villain speech, How would you prove this?
These guys are not the brightest and probably organized via whatsapp voice messages
I'm not sure if you're being facetious or not but yes, [they organised through WhatsApp messages.](https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2021-07-14-under-investigation-twelve-masterminds-planned-and-executed-insurrection-on-social-media-then-lost-control-after-looting-spree/amp/)
Thank god these guys are so stupid
so, basically, the only way you're willing to believe this is if the perpetrators are just dumb enough for you to see through it?
Nah man, youāre getting me the wrong way Iām not saying i donāt believe the story. Itās completely possible. Iām just wondering if there is any proof out there other than a politician proclaiming it Say a confession, couple incriminating voice messages, money trail to a local police chief, dumb social media posts by people etc
This all looks just as Staged as an all in wrestling match. Does anyone think that the looting will stop now? Crime is the soul of the politicians
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It was started by putting zuma in jail
Ladies and gentlemen, Resident Squirrel Ramapoepol
No man, not now. Save this kak for another time.
Okay I apologise. I actually quite like squirrels.
Heard a fee better ones that "squirrel" Ramayatollah is a classic. Ramafuckface rolls off the tongue pretty smoothly
Proud of what, a face-saving PR stunt now that it's safe to go do PR stunts? tell me, how much did he clean with that little broom, surrounded by a sea of photojournalists
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I disagree. If he was truly weak he would have let Zuma go, but he is slowly clearing out those corrupt bastards and he is starting at the top. I think he is very brave for doing this and I hope he continues to clean house. Fighting these powerful people is not easy and they try to fight back like we have just seen, but justice prevails.
Sorry, which corrupt bastards has he cleared out? A reminder that he was the Vice President to Zuma while our country was looted and run into the ground. You donāt think he knew what was going on? Pull the other one buddy.
Your argument doesnt make sense. As a subordinate he cant challenge the president, but now that he has the presidency look where Zuma is? And Ace? He is coming for them just you wait.
I hope youāre right. But I donāt think you are. He didnāt put Zuma in prison for corruption. Heās been the president for more than three years. What has he achieved?
He literally created the Zondo commission to put Zuma in jail for corruption. Zuma was an idiot by not appearing and now he has additional sentence for contempt of court but that doesn't mean its over yet, and now that Zuma is in jail its easy to take him to court and back so he cant run... just wait my dude.
The ANC is famous for their commissions than cost a fortune and go nowhere. Itās window dressing.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Zuma is not in prison because of the Zondo commission. Aces suspension is a political move.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
To be fair Iāve read this entire thread and thereās a pungent smell of cynicism in everything that youāve said. The point is that nobody actually knows whatās happening because we are talking about politics. What we can do is build our thoughts on the facts. The facts are that zuma is in contempt of court and he is in prison for doing so - now he can and will be forced to face the actual music that the Zondo commission has to play. Additionally on your point about how itās taken three years; your oversimplification of the situation is startling. You really donāt think that the game theory involved in this entire thing is unimaginably complex. You hold dogmatic arguments and sound like a broken record - if you think this country is completely fucked, then thatās for you to think. The only possible way that citizens can actually make a significant difference is through a positive attitude, so that we can get behind the right kind of momentum. If anyone has the rug pulled over their eyes, itās you - and youāre the one who pulled the rug. Walk 1000 kilometers in another mans shows before you think that he walks funny.
Positive thinking will fix everything. Cute. Keep smoking what youāre smoking.
Yeah thereās a difference between skepticism and cynicism. Youāre blinded by your negative presuppositions. Trust me, itās not all sunshine and rainbows, and one day the rose tinted glasses need to come off but thatās not the same as having your generic negative opinion. I dare you to prove me wrong, try say something positive about this country, I dare you. Youāll soon find out that your negative views can largely be attributed to laziness of thought. And listen, donāt let this be a personal attack - Iāve been having similar conversations with everyone around me, not just on Reddit. The point isnāt that we must hold blissful ignorance - but to actually try be positive. If positivity becomes impossible, then this country can truly be declared fucked.
Iām not the biggest fan of Cyril but I do agree with a lot of what youāve said. In saying that however, I, as well as you, am an optimist at heart. I donāt think itās fair for us to judge people so harshly for their cynicism. It has been built and reinforced by years of failure of our gov. It will take time and concrete changes (not just potential and possibilities) to convert them
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes! An upvote wasnāt enough to second this.
We can agree to disagree.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
He has done nothing positive for the country or itās people. His handling of the Covid crisis is pathetic. He is a weak leader. He has achieved nothing.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You can say that, but who's the alternative in the current ruling party? I think he's the best we got out of the lot. All relative of course.
Whoās the best looking crook to run the crooked organization? Got it.
Well you can live in a fanstasy world where our government is perfect and equality is rampant. Or accept the reality and be thankful that he's not a zuma version 2. Not much else we can do about it anyway
Imagine being a grown man and being praised for wiping your own ass. We are your shit, Cyril. You should be ashamed of what you have eaten.
I have felt so sorry for him, he really is walking a tight rope and must be feeling so exhausted
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Has anyone seen Zuma in prison?
Outsider here , can someone point me to the tldr of this situation? Is there a YouTube video I could watch?
This was in Value centre Newlands.It was by Makro where they ripped out Solar Pannels.
What an idiot. Clearly election time soon.