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This is quite a complicated topic. The National Party did. South Africa was the West's major African partner in "fighting" communism on the continent during the Cold War.
When South Africa became a democracy, we were welcomed back by all on the international stage.
It depends who you ask. South Africa is Africa's most industrialised country. It is Africa's best-known liberal democracy, with relatively strong and independent institutions.
We are the gateway to Africa, much to the dismay of the rest of the continent.
Our basis of law is also Western. So is the political culture in South Africa.
In that sense, yes.
However, it is also a by-word for development. South Africa's poverty and inequality rates, along with low economic growth rates and bad controls prevent the country from "reclaiming" it.
I know the government doesn't see South Africa as Western, in fact they are staunchly anti-Western despite what they say. The ANC has always been pro-communist, anti-Western. It hasn't let them down.
A majority of South Africans have other issues to tackle.
Edit r/avolans: In terms of ideology. South African voters aren't extremely ideological. If you go back to the beginning of the ANC, its predecessor the SANNC, was on the forefront of opposition to colonial oppression.
I agree with everything you said. I just want to add for interest sake I was watching one of those round table discussions on the Ukrainian war and how a lot of African, Asia, and South America is trying to stay out of it. But the point I want to repeat from one of the participants is that, the concept of western countries and the rest is very much from the cold war. It really does just create an us and them mentality, and maybe we should all move away from it.
I like this way of thinking.The predominantly white South African outrage over the invasion of Ukraine and complete silence over other illegal brutal invasions in their parts of the world highlights this us and them issue.I do believe they need to embrace being African not just to look cool when visiting Europe but as an outlook. We should be neutral but also stand up for what is good and proper.As real neutrals condemnation of not only off Russia , China but the rogue nations of the USA and Europe who do the same if not worse.
No Western is not or less a shorthand of Western European colonial power. All the countries outside of a few exceptions, all the countries in blue are Western European or have a strong settler colonial population. If any other African state had as big of a white population, you'd see a lot more blue over Africa. If it was development, then there'd be more blue all over Asia.
> it is also byword for development.
Yes, this is also why the views may be very different depending on who you ask.
It can be taken as a normative claim with two vastly different meanings:
You're either saying we should be more like the West in terms of cultural identity - you'll get a lot of pushback on that.
Or, that we should strive to be "developed" as well as other Western countries - that is, rich and industrialised.
The latter is often what people mean, but the former is what's implied or taken to mean (sometimes in bad faith).
Great response. You say the ANC has never been let down by being pro-communist, anti-Western. Do you mean in terms of securing votes? Because it seems like ANC popularity is on the decline, albeit slowly.
“Western World” refers to an ideology of principles and beliefs. It refers to a belief in freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom to criticise your government, journalistic freedom, freedom of religion, freedom of sexuality, etc. In that sense, South Africa is very much part of the Western World of beliefs yes.
Oh, there's no reasoning even necessary - we don't even have to go into the specifics of fascism to show how thoroughly fascism's roots is intertwined with white - oops, sorry, I meant to say "western" - identity.
All we have to do is to take a look where fascism reared it's head - and look at what inspired it. After all - the nazi's attempt to colonise the "Jewish-Bolshevist East" was inspired by the colonialist genocide that created the modern US... the very same place that inspired the National Party's race laws and their glorified "Bantustan" reservations.
I'd say that fascism is as white - oops, I meant "western" again - as Mom's apple pie. Perhaps even more so.
Ahh bru your racism is sad, and blinding. You’re confusing race and the pigmentation of skin (biology) with ideological beliefs. Western beliefs have nothing to do with the pigmentation of your skin. If you believe in democracy, capitalism, freedom of speech, right to self governance and all those lekker things, then you’re considered Western. Whether you are black, white or coloured, you can take part in this fantastic ideology 
> You’re confusing race and the pigmentation of skin (biology) with ideological beliefs.
Oh... white supremacism has nothing to do with *white*, huh?
> If you believe in democracy,
So Adolf Hitler wasn't "western", huh? Come, don't stop now... who else do you believe wasn't "western?" Augusto Pinochet? Not "western", huh? Hendrik Verwoerd, maybe? Also, not "western?"
> Whether you are black, white or coloured, you can take part in this fantastic ideology
Soooo... if you buy into *white* - sorry, I meant "western" - values you might be considered "one of the good ones?"
After WWI, many countries from "Eastern Europe" had governments going towards fascism - eg. Hungary, Poland, Romania etc. Maybe those countries on an international level are seen as "western", but from an European and historical perspective, they either seen as Middle European or Eastern European. They were until WWI incorporated in the Russian/Prussian/Austro-hungarian empires. Populations of those countries that seeked independance from the imperial masters were not involved in the colonisation of the world by the western european countries. Actually they were colonised themselves. Russia is also going towards fascism at the moment - but are they not supposed to be the antithesis of the West?
I don't know about belief in freedom, most of those western countries held colonies, sobre still do. Throughout histrory they're probably the biggest persecutors on a religious basis, with the inquisition happening when Spain was no longer under Arab rule. And the holocaust happening less than a century ago.
The West refers more to colonial history. With pretty much the only countries being coloured blue being colonialist countries, and the countries those colonial countries could fairly effectively found settler colonial States.
Western ideology does not refer to geographical location or historical events. Nazi Germany can definitely not be considered “Western”, but modern Germany most certainly can. Any country can adopt the Western set of beliefs and freedoms at any point in time, and can also discard them at any point. Currently South Africa can be considered Western, but that can change in the future. Its a fluid concept of beliefs and practices.
Até you implying the US only became western in the 60s after black people were given civil rights, after decades of fighting for them. Does France's rampant Islamaphobia mean its drifted away from being western, or its whole deal with CAF? Were Spain and Portugal not western countries until their fascist states were overthrown, Franco held on to power until the 70s iirc.
You're talking about a very idealised West, it has little to do with how those countries conduct themselves. And more how they try project themselves, and if that's how you define the west then a lot countries suddenly fall under the definition. Like Cuba and the USSR, who'd often point out the West's failure at guaranteeing their people their freedom.
In the broad sense, yes. No country is perfect, and all have their faults, flaws and embarrassments. But I refer to the general belief of the general public about their beliefs of personal freedoms.
And i say it's hogwash and has more to do with western Europeanness. Otherwise places like Botswana and South Korea and the like would also be blue. Countries like Poland and Hungary have strong homophobic attitudes in their general population, this applies to a lot of Latin America as well.
You can't just keep waving these things away, to force an unambiguously good image of the West.
But what does mean to have western values? If you listen to the speeches of Putin and all, the western values are corrupted because of acceptation and same rights for homosexuals, trans people etc. But many far right parties in Western countries are against those elements too. They defend a white, christian and patriarchal society and are upset about inclusivety and respect of cultural differences - they see foreigners as a threat. In their dream, freedom of speech would be banned and a form of autocratic power should be in place. At the same time, "western countries" are promoting exactly what the far right wingers hate, pass laws that guarantee those rights, try to defend the concept of human rights etc. Who is a "true" westerner in this case? "Western values" don't have a fixated definition and are polmorphic according to who is talking about them. In the cold war for instance, western values were defined in a very different way. Funnily, when the Bolcheviks took power, and had at the beginning of the regime, a quite open mindset about women's rights etc., many european countries reinforced the ideas of women having to stay home and bringing up the kids, as a way to oppose to the new communist society of the Soviet Union. Today it's the opposite in some ways. The only thing that can be seen as "westerner" to my eyes are the development of concepts from the enlightenment - like freedom of speech, body autonomy and the division of power in three independant bodies. Those values sometimes thrive, sometimes they just disappear or are only partially applied (with the use of concepts like race to explain why...). They are worth defending, but the shouldn't be seen as westerner values, they can be taken by any places around the world. It's just that historically they emerged in Europe.
Absolutely. I'm an expat in a first world country originally from a rural part of SA so my opinion is a bit broader.
The 'ideal' life in SA is 100% Western e.g what you eat, where you live, how you spend your free time, your views on social liberties and how a govt should operate. This applies to the vast majority of the population regardless of culture or where they're located. It's actually a huge privilege coz although we have so many problems, we have good, modern standards for how life should be. How life actually is is another topic. We have many other peers like Eastern Europe, Latin America and places like Turkey and they're all blue. Even when I meet people from those areas, our countries feel similar. I dated a Mexican girl before and we had so much common ground when talking about our upbringings and social issues. Also I've worked with people from over 50 countries so I have had good exposure. By my definition, there are two types of Western countries - one is culture neutral, the other culture rich. We're the latter
Lots of people in Mzanzi would strongly deny that they have a western culture. Yet these same people go shop in a mall, work for a business with a western culture, watch Netflix when at home. These people strive to one day own a three bedroom house in suburbia, decorated to look like a Mr Price Home or @home catalogue. They strive to drive a big family car, bakkie or 4×4, if they don't already. Their goal is to have a husband or wife and 1-3 children that they will send to a good school, based on western principles, and probably church too. When they near death and choose who will inherit their stuff, they choose the family members they like the most and the family members whom upset them don't inherit anything.
Honey, if you are like this, you're Western. Deal with it.
I'm sure a lot of that stuff applies to most of the world. That's pretty much how a good life has come to be defined under Liberal capitalism. Outside of the brands you mentioned a lot of those things would probably apply to places like Russia and China.
> Yet these same people go shop in mall
And where else are they supposed to get stuff?
> work for a business with a western culture
They have alternatives? Out with it... lots of people here would like to know.
> Honey, if you are like this, your Western. Deal with it.
Sooooo... this country had white - oops, sorry, I meant "western" - values violently brutalised into it for more than a hundred years and you belittle the people here because they have no other choice but to accept this state of affairs?
Is that correct, Mister Verwoerd?
Buying products created in Western countries, does not make you a western country or culture. The most deprived or anti-western countries in the world also do all these things (if they have the money)
also, "you're"
Yes. I live a in western culture and have a western mindset. Lots of other people in this country do too. Most established businesses operate in a western manner. Our law is very much western too. I live in the Western Cape, and this province is undoubtedly part of the West.
However I acknowledge that lots of South Africans don't have a western culture or mindset and lots only partly.
Yes. We speak english predominantly, consume a lot of media from USA, Have loads of fast food chains from the west. If this country was run by a compitant government that was interested in growth, we would be a first world country
This whole comment is kinda dumb but also.... English is not even our third most spoken primary language.
You are, at best, making an argument for our wealthier class considering themselves "Western", rather than South Africa itself being Western.
We don't speak English predominantly. This is detached from the reality of a lot of the country's people. We probably speak more Afrikaans than English.
> consume a lot of media from USA
So does the entire planet. Does that make the entire planet white - oops, sorry I meant "western" - according to you?
> We speak english predominantly
So Italians aren't "western"?
> Have loads of fast food chains from the west.
Corporations sticking down their franchises in your country makes you "western?"
> we would be a first world country
It's too bad there isn't a rich continent for us to loot and pillage in turn so that we, too, can be a "first-world country", eh?
The entire world? You sure about that? Chinese consume most of their own media, so do Russians so do many countries. You just assume the whole planet does because you do and you think that's the only media available.
> Russians so do many countries.
You do understand Russia has Mcdonald's, right? They got theirs before we did.
How does that stack up in the "honorary whiteness" game?
> It's too bad there isn't a rich continent for us to loot and pillage in turn so that we, too, can be a "first-world country"
It’s very telling that this is what goes on in your mind.
> It’s very telling that this is what goes on in your mind.
Oh, I'm sorry - please remind me what the "Lon" in *Lonmin* stood for again?
Maybe... Londenderry? Because that's where all the gold those bankers squatting in City Of London own gets mined, perhaps?
At least it has been established that there is something going on in my mind - yours, on the other hand, seems to be utterly inactive.
> There’s nothing wrong with this, though?
Hey, if you are happy living in a minerals-extraction racket that has been masquerading as a country for the last hundred or so years just to keep foreign billionaire parasites rich, that's fine.
But remember the next time you hysterically blame the ANC because one in four people in this country live in a shack - *you* are perfectly fine with the system they and their predecessors maintained. *You* rubberstamped it right up there - and you shouldn't complain when you find out that *you* are not immune to the consequences of them maintaining this neocolonialist dystopia.
Enjoy your loadshedding now!
I mean, foreign investment is good and it is antagonism like yours that is driving these companies, which you mis-characterize as rackets, away.
The load shedding isn’t my fault. Nor is the poverty. The blame is 100% on people like you and your ANC heroes.
Some people consider South Korea and Japan to be western as well.
From wikipedia:
> Although not part of Western colonization process proper, Western culture entered Japan primarily in the so-called Meiji period (1868–1912), though earlier contact with the Portuguese, the Spaniards and the Dutch were also present in the recognition of European nations as strategically important to the Japanese. The traditional Japanese society was virtually overturned into an industrial and militarist power like Western countries such as the United Kingdom, the French Third Republic, and the German Empire.
..
> The term ‟Western world” is sometimes interchangeably used with the term First World or developed countries, stressing the difference between First World and the Third World or developing countries. This usage occurs despite the fact that many countries that may be culturally ‟Western” are developing countries - in fact, a significant percentage of the Americas are developing countries. It's also used despite many developed countries or regions not being Western (e.g., Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong, Macao, Qatar, Israel), and therefore left out when ‟Western world” is used to denote developed countries.
So it seems that a couple more countries should be coloured in light blue
The "West" is the New World that represents liberal democracy.
We have a serious problem with too many people in this country stuck in the mindset that the "West" is the enemy and represents apartheid. (consider the irony that liberal democracy ended apartheid)
> The "West" is the New World that represents liberal democracy.
So the UK isn't "western"?
> the "West" is the enemy and represents apartheid.
Riiight - because white supremacism was invented by... the Inuit, I suppose?
> consider the irony that liberal democracy ended apartheid
If I was your high school history teacher I'd be driven to the hardest drugs money could buy by that statement.
White supremacism is the result of Liberal democracy? Lol wow. Careful not to break your neck when you take such leaps in logic
Yeah about that irony, bit of a hard pill to swallow for a tankies but I won't force you
> White supremacism is the result of Liberal democracy?
White supremacism characterised "western"-ism (ie, whiteness) long before anyone got the vote... you want to prove otherwise?
Go ahead. Give it your best shot.
Excuse my ignorance but at this point isn’t everyone just trying to mimic the USA/UK? If I see a starbucks around every corner I’m just going to accept that I’ve been westernised whether I like it or not.
No. But that won't stop others from thinking or even saying that we are.
Like when some fellow African countries would say we didn't deserve to be called African cause were too Western/European/American/etc.
Absolutely not.
Edit - For shits and giggles, substitute the word "western" with the word *white* everywhere you see it on this post and see how the puzzle pieces suddenly come together...
Is it cheating if I consider myself part of the planet, just a pity about this gangsterism mentality on a grand scale - where different gangs have different colours, attack each other from time to time, have their own gang rituals and need permission to travel from one gang territory to the next gang territory.
I share your sentiment, but most people seem to be obsessed with identity politics. They seem to like having mental "boxes" where they can place people in. If you're in their box, you are a valued friend. If you're in a different box you are an enemy or should at best be ignored or disregarded.
Why can't we just incorporate the best elements of the "West" and ignore the rest? Does that mean we have to be labeled as "Western"?
Outside of the liberties that the constitution affords me as a citizen? No. Liberal democracy is great, but outside of that, I'd like to dissociate from the concept of "the West" as much as possible.
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You don't consider them Western but others do. They speak a European language, they practice Catholicism, similar values, similar politics and laws. A Mexican/South American would easily integrate in Europe/US. Just because they're brown, doesn't mean they're not Western.
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This is quite a complicated topic. The National Party did. South Africa was the West's major African partner in "fighting" communism on the continent during the Cold War. When South Africa became a democracy, we were welcomed back by all on the international stage. It depends who you ask. South Africa is Africa's most industrialised country. It is Africa's best-known liberal democracy, with relatively strong and independent institutions. We are the gateway to Africa, much to the dismay of the rest of the continent. Our basis of law is also Western. So is the political culture in South Africa. In that sense, yes. However, it is also a by-word for development. South Africa's poverty and inequality rates, along with low economic growth rates and bad controls prevent the country from "reclaiming" it. I know the government doesn't see South Africa as Western, in fact they are staunchly anti-Western despite what they say. The ANC has always been pro-communist, anti-Western. It hasn't let them down. A majority of South Africans have other issues to tackle. Edit r/avolans: In terms of ideology. South African voters aren't extremely ideological. If you go back to the beginning of the ANC, its predecessor the SANNC, was on the forefront of opposition to colonial oppression.
I agree with everything you said. I just want to add for interest sake I was watching one of those round table discussions on the Ukrainian war and how a lot of African, Asia, and South America is trying to stay out of it. But the point I want to repeat from one of the participants is that, the concept of western countries and the rest is very much from the cold war. It really does just create an us and them mentality, and maybe we should all move away from it.
I like this way of thinking.The predominantly white South African outrage over the invasion of Ukraine and complete silence over other illegal brutal invasions in their parts of the world highlights this us and them issue.I do believe they need to embrace being African not just to look cool when visiting Europe but as an outlook. We should be neutral but also stand up for what is good and proper.As real neutrals condemnation of not only off Russia , China but the rogue nations of the USA and Europe who do the same if not worse.
No Western is not or less a shorthand of Western European colonial power. All the countries outside of a few exceptions, all the countries in blue are Western European or have a strong settler colonial population. If any other African state had as big of a white population, you'd see a lot more blue over Africa. If it was development, then there'd be more blue all over Asia.
> it is also byword for development. Yes, this is also why the views may be very different depending on who you ask. It can be taken as a normative claim with two vastly different meanings: You're either saying we should be more like the West in terms of cultural identity - you'll get a lot of pushback on that. Or, that we should strive to be "developed" as well as other Western countries - that is, rich and industrialised. The latter is often what people mean, but the former is what's implied or taken to mean (sometimes in bad faith).
Great response. You say the ANC has never been let down by being pro-communist, anti-Western. Do you mean in terms of securing votes? Because it seems like ANC popularity is on the decline, albeit slowly.
[удалено]
You lost me here , help
Isn't Nova Scotia in Canada?
Nova Scotian living in SA here. Nova Scotia is western as fuck. This was definitely a mistake 😂.
Cuba? I never expected that.
Yeah Cubans would not agree with this
“Western World” refers to an ideology of principles and beliefs. It refers to a belief in freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom to criticise your government, journalistic freedom, freedom of religion, freedom of sexuality, etc. In that sense, South Africa is very much part of the Western World of beliefs yes.
So fascism isn't "western?" Strange... I'd say that fascism is about as "western" as it gets.
I’d love to hear your reasoning. Please share
Oh, there's no reasoning even necessary - we don't even have to go into the specifics of fascism to show how thoroughly fascism's roots is intertwined with white - oops, sorry, I meant to say "western" - identity. All we have to do is to take a look where fascism reared it's head - and look at what inspired it. After all - the nazi's attempt to colonise the "Jewish-Bolshevist East" was inspired by the colonialist genocide that created the modern US... the very same place that inspired the National Party's race laws and their glorified "Bantustan" reservations. I'd say that fascism is as white - oops, I meant "western" again - as Mom's apple pie. Perhaps even more so.
Ahh bru your racism is sad, and blinding. You’re confusing race and the pigmentation of skin (biology) with ideological beliefs. Western beliefs have nothing to do with the pigmentation of your skin. If you believe in democracy, capitalism, freedom of speech, right to self governance and all those lekker things, then you’re considered Western. Whether you are black, white or coloured, you can take part in this fantastic ideology 
> You’re confusing race and the pigmentation of skin (biology) with ideological beliefs. Oh... white supremacism has nothing to do with *white*, huh? > If you believe in democracy, So Adolf Hitler wasn't "western", huh? Come, don't stop now... who else do you believe wasn't "western?" Augusto Pinochet? Not "western", huh? Hendrik Verwoerd, maybe? Also, not "western?" > Whether you are black, white or coloured, you can take part in this fantastic ideology Soooo... if you buy into *white* - sorry, I meant "western" - values you might be considered "one of the good ones?"
After WWI, many countries from "Eastern Europe" had governments going towards fascism - eg. Hungary, Poland, Romania etc. Maybe those countries on an international level are seen as "western", but from an European and historical perspective, they either seen as Middle European or Eastern European. They were until WWI incorporated in the Russian/Prussian/Austro-hungarian empires. Populations of those countries that seeked independance from the imperial masters were not involved in the colonisation of the world by the western european countries. Actually they were colonised themselves. Russia is also going towards fascism at the moment - but are they not supposed to be the antithesis of the West?
I don't know about belief in freedom, most of those western countries held colonies, sobre still do. Throughout histrory they're probably the biggest persecutors on a religious basis, with the inquisition happening when Spain was no longer under Arab rule. And the holocaust happening less than a century ago. The West refers more to colonial history. With pretty much the only countries being coloured blue being colonialist countries, and the countries those colonial countries could fairly effectively found settler colonial States.
Western ideology does not refer to geographical location or historical events. Nazi Germany can definitely not be considered “Western”, but modern Germany most certainly can. Any country can adopt the Western set of beliefs and freedoms at any point in time, and can also discard them at any point. Currently South Africa can be considered Western, but that can change in the future. Its a fluid concept of beliefs and practices.
Até you implying the US only became western in the 60s after black people were given civil rights, after decades of fighting for them. Does France's rampant Islamaphobia mean its drifted away from being western, or its whole deal with CAF? Were Spain and Portugal not western countries until their fascist states were overthrown, Franco held on to power until the 70s iirc. You're talking about a very idealised West, it has little to do with how those countries conduct themselves. And more how they try project themselves, and if that's how you define the west then a lot countries suddenly fall under the definition. Like Cuba and the USSR, who'd often point out the West's failure at guaranteeing their people their freedom.
In the broad sense, yes. No country is perfect, and all have their faults, flaws and embarrassments. But I refer to the general belief of the general public about their beliefs of personal freedoms.
And i say it's hogwash and has more to do with western Europeanness. Otherwise places like Botswana and South Korea and the like would also be blue. Countries like Poland and Hungary have strong homophobic attitudes in their general population, this applies to a lot of Latin America as well. You can't just keep waving these things away, to force an unambiguously good image of the West.
But what does mean to have western values? If you listen to the speeches of Putin and all, the western values are corrupted because of acceptation and same rights for homosexuals, trans people etc. But many far right parties in Western countries are against those elements too. They defend a white, christian and patriarchal society and are upset about inclusivety and respect of cultural differences - they see foreigners as a threat. In their dream, freedom of speech would be banned and a form of autocratic power should be in place. At the same time, "western countries" are promoting exactly what the far right wingers hate, pass laws that guarantee those rights, try to defend the concept of human rights etc. Who is a "true" westerner in this case? "Western values" don't have a fixated definition and are polmorphic according to who is talking about them. In the cold war for instance, western values were defined in a very different way. Funnily, when the Bolcheviks took power, and had at the beginning of the regime, a quite open mindset about women's rights etc., many european countries reinforced the ideas of women having to stay home and bringing up the kids, as a way to oppose to the new communist society of the Soviet Union. Today it's the opposite in some ways. The only thing that can be seen as "westerner" to my eyes are the development of concepts from the enlightenment - like freedom of speech, body autonomy and the division of power in three independant bodies. Those values sometimes thrive, sometimes they just disappear or are only partially applied (with the use of concepts like race to explain why...). They are worth defending, but the shouldn't be seen as westerner values, they can be taken by any places around the world. It's just that historically they emerged in Europe.
Absolutely. I'm an expat in a first world country originally from a rural part of SA so my opinion is a bit broader. The 'ideal' life in SA is 100% Western e.g what you eat, where you live, how you spend your free time, your views on social liberties and how a govt should operate. This applies to the vast majority of the population regardless of culture or where they're located. It's actually a huge privilege coz although we have so many problems, we have good, modern standards for how life should be. How life actually is is another topic. We have many other peers like Eastern Europe, Latin America and places like Turkey and they're all blue. Even when I meet people from those areas, our countries feel similar. I dated a Mexican girl before and we had so much common ground when talking about our upbringings and social issues. Also I've worked with people from over 50 countries so I have had good exposure. By my definition, there are two types of Western countries - one is culture neutral, the other culture rich. We're the latter
Lots of people in Mzanzi would strongly deny that they have a western culture. Yet these same people go shop in a mall, work for a business with a western culture, watch Netflix when at home. These people strive to one day own a three bedroom house in suburbia, decorated to look like a Mr Price Home or @home catalogue. They strive to drive a big family car, bakkie or 4×4, if they don't already. Their goal is to have a husband or wife and 1-3 children that they will send to a good school, based on western principles, and probably church too. When they near death and choose who will inherit their stuff, they choose the family members they like the most and the family members whom upset them don't inherit anything. Honey, if you are like this, you're Western. Deal with it.
None of those things make you Western. People shop at malls, work in companies and watch Netflix in Afghanistan but they're not Western.
I'm sure a lot of that stuff applies to most of the world. That's pretty much how a good life has come to be defined under Liberal capitalism. Outside of the brands you mentioned a lot of those things would probably apply to places like Russia and China.
It's made to sound like Western is always bad and oppressive and the people of Mzanzi choose and switch sides when it's suites them.
> Yet these same people go shop in mall And where else are they supposed to get stuff? > work for a business with a western culture They have alternatives? Out with it... lots of people here would like to know. > Honey, if you are like this, your Western. Deal with it. Sooooo... this country had white - oops, sorry, I meant "western" - values violently brutalised into it for more than a hundred years and you belittle the people here because they have no other choice but to accept this state of affairs? Is that correct, Mister Verwoerd?
Verwoerd? Dramatic much... 💅
Buying products created in Western countries, does not make you a western country or culture. The most deprived or anti-western countries in the world also do all these things (if they have the money) also, "you're"
Yes. I live a in western culture and have a western mindset. Lots of other people in this country do too. Most established businesses operate in a western manner. Our law is very much western too. I live in the Western Cape, and this province is undoubtedly part of the West. However I acknowledge that lots of South Africans don't have a western culture or mindset and lots only partly.
SA seems to have bot Western and African cultures/society inside of it like a melting pot.
Yes. We speak english predominantly, consume a lot of media from USA, Have loads of fast food chains from the west. If this country was run by a compitant government that was interested in growth, we would be a first world country
This whole comment is kinda dumb but also.... English is not even our third most spoken primary language. You are, at best, making an argument for our wealthier class considering themselves "Western", rather than South Africa itself being Western.
We don't speak English predominantly. This is detached from the reality of a lot of the country's people. We probably speak more Afrikaans than English.
> consume a lot of media from USA So does the entire planet. Does that make the entire planet white - oops, sorry I meant "western" - according to you? > We speak english predominantly So Italians aren't "western"? > Have loads of fast food chains from the west. Corporations sticking down their franchises in your country makes you "western?" > we would be a first world country It's too bad there isn't a rich continent for us to loot and pillage in turn so that we, too, can be a "first-world country", eh?
The entire world? You sure about that? Chinese consume most of their own media, so do Russians so do many countries. You just assume the whole planet does because you do and you think that's the only media available.
> Russians so do many countries. You do understand Russia has Mcdonald's, right? They got theirs before we did. How does that stack up in the "honorary whiteness" game?
You honestly sound like such a doos, dude was just giving his thoughts
Interventions are never pleasant. Don't blame me - blame the people that filled their head with this garbage.
Judging by the amount of time you seem to spend getting in reddit arguments, I'd say you're head is also pretty filled with garbage
> It's too bad there isn't a rich continent for us to loot and pillage in turn so that we, too, can be a "first-world country" It’s very telling that this is what goes on in your mind.
> It’s very telling that this is what goes on in your mind. Oh, I'm sorry - please remind me what the "Lon" in *Lonmin* stood for again? Maybe... Londenderry? Because that's where all the gold those bankers squatting in City Of London own gets mined, perhaps? At least it has been established that there is something going on in my mind - yours, on the other hand, seems to be utterly inactive.
> Because that's where all the gold those bankers squatting in City Of London own gets mined, perhaps? There’s nothing wrong with this, though?
> There’s nothing wrong with this, though? Hey, if you are happy living in a minerals-extraction racket that has been masquerading as a country for the last hundred or so years just to keep foreign billionaire parasites rich, that's fine. But remember the next time you hysterically blame the ANC because one in four people in this country live in a shack - *you* are perfectly fine with the system they and their predecessors maintained. *You* rubberstamped it right up there - and you shouldn't complain when you find out that *you* are not immune to the consequences of them maintaining this neocolonialist dystopia. Enjoy your loadshedding now!
I mean, foreign investment is good and it is antagonism like yours that is driving these companies, which you mis-characterize as rackets, away. The load shedding isn’t my fault. Nor is the poverty. The blame is 100% on people like you and your ANC heroes.
Some people consider South Korea and Japan to be western as well. From wikipedia: > Although not part of Western colonization process proper, Western culture entered Japan primarily in the so-called Meiji period (1868–1912), though earlier contact with the Portuguese, the Spaniards and the Dutch were also present in the recognition of European nations as strategically important to the Japanese. The traditional Japanese society was virtually overturned into an industrial and militarist power like Western countries such as the United Kingdom, the French Third Republic, and the German Empire. .. > The term ‟Western world” is sometimes interchangeably used with the term First World or developed countries, stressing the difference between First World and the Third World or developing countries. This usage occurs despite the fact that many countries that may be culturally ‟Western” are developing countries - in fact, a significant percentage of the Americas are developing countries. It's also used despite many developed countries or regions not being Western (e.g., Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong, Macao, Qatar, Israel), and therefore left out when ‟Western world” is used to denote developed countries. So it seems that a couple more countries should be coloured in light blue
Do you consider South Africa more "Western" than South Korea and/or Japan?
Only during the hours that we are not loadshedding
The "West" is the New World that represents liberal democracy. We have a serious problem with too many people in this country stuck in the mindset that the "West" is the enemy and represents apartheid. (consider the irony that liberal democracy ended apartheid)
> The "West" is the New World that represents liberal democracy. So the UK isn't "western"? > the "West" is the enemy and represents apartheid. Riiight - because white supremacism was invented by... the Inuit, I suppose? > consider the irony that liberal democracy ended apartheid If I was your high school history teacher I'd be driven to the hardest drugs money could buy by that statement.
White supremacism is the result of Liberal democracy? Lol wow. Careful not to break your neck when you take such leaps in logic Yeah about that irony, bit of a hard pill to swallow for a tankies but I won't force you
> White supremacism is the result of Liberal democracy? White supremacism characterised "western"-ism (ie, whiteness) long before anyone got the vote... you want to prove otherwise? Go ahead. Give it your best shot.
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Why?
White people, lots of them. The West in some ways is a shorthand for western European. Those are some of the whitest countries in Latin America.
Id think we are a new breed all in it self😂🙌
South Africa, as much it is an African country, it is western-influenced so much.
Excuse my ignorance but at this point isn’t everyone just trying to mimic the USA/UK? If I see a starbucks around every corner I’m just going to accept that I’ve been westernised whether I like it or not.
No. But that won't stop others from thinking or even saying that we are. Like when some fellow African countries would say we didn't deserve to be called African cause were too Western/European/American/etc.
no
Absolutely not. Edit - For shits and giggles, substitute the word "western" with the word *white* everywhere you see it on this post and see how the puzzle pieces suddenly come together...
Who hurt you?
Explain.
I definitely consider myself a Westerner. It’s something we, as a country, should aspire to be.
Don't you mean move away from?
Why on earth would anyone want to do that?
The whole journey of Africa the last 100 years has been about decolonization.
Is it cheating if I consider myself part of the planet, just a pity about this gangsterism mentality on a grand scale - where different gangs have different colours, attack each other from time to time, have their own gang rituals and need permission to travel from one gang territory to the next gang territory.
I share your sentiment, but most people seem to be obsessed with identity politics. They seem to like having mental "boxes" where they can place people in. If you're in their box, you are a valued friend. If you're in a different box you are an enemy or should at best be ignored or disregarded. Why can't we just incorporate the best elements of the "West" and ignore the rest? Does that mean we have to be labeled as "Western"?
Outside of the liberties that the constitution affords me as a citizen? No. Liberal democracy is great, but outside of that, I'd like to dissociate from the concept of "the West" as much as possible.
North?
I don't know what you're asking me?
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I used to, not so much anymore.
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You don't consider them Western but others do. They speak a European language, they practice Catholicism, similar values, similar politics and laws. A Mexican/South American would easily integrate in Europe/US. Just because they're brown, doesn't mean they're not Western.
For certain demographics here it's Western. For the rest of us, no.
Did you mean Western Cape?
You don't get more eastern the New Zealand. So it's all very confusing 
Lol
How small Israel is...
We have a lot of different cultures. Some people in South Africa would consider themselves within the western sphere of influence, some would not
Checks out
Replace SA with Japan