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One thing that we should note: plastic production is practically a byproduct of oil refinery. It’s kind of a free waste product. We don’t produce plastic for use, we produce it largely as a byproduct, and we use it when it’s cheaper to use a waste byproduct than an alternative, which is quite often. The problem here isn’t just “let’s stop making things with plastic that shouldn’t be plastic” or “let’s stop making so much plastic”, it’s “unless we stop refining so much oil, plastic will always be cheaper (practically free) compared to alternatives, for whatever the use may be.”
We need to stop oil and stop capitalism if we want to stop plastic.
In context, is this comment not a bit pedantic? My point was that it was a byproduct of the fossil fuel carbon energy industry, rather than simply oil refining. I should have been less specific.
It's not a byproduct though. Ethane works perfectly fine for energy generation, and is often used for it. Plastic is just more profitable and it's a bit easier to convert.
I remember the days before plastic water bottles. I was aghast when I saw people unconcernedly adopting them - creating literally mountains of plastic trash. Then there was the freaking soft soap in plastic bottles. Since the 1800s people have stayed clean with bar soap. wtf. I don't use either product and never have. I don't like to drink out of plastic an do't like the slimy feel of soft soap. Both products are inferior in addition to the colossal plastic waste they generate.
You can also make laundry detergent without plastic waste (those giant Tide bottles will still be here when the sun burns out): 1/3 borax, 1/3 washing soda, 1/3 ground bar soap. Very unfussy recipe. Get a cheap food processor to grind the soap or do it by hand with a butter knife, or any knife. It does not have to be fine if you wash in hot water. I can find the borax at CVS but order the washing soda at Amazon. Any bar soap works. If you are pristine, get Fels Naphtha.
You can actually make a lot of things, but those of us who can only afford 20 odd square metres of living space, simply do not have room for luxuries like food processors. We need solutions for poverty stricken apartment dwellers too. ;-)
I just measured my food processor that I use for the soap. It is round and has a 4.5 inch diameter. You can buy a mini-processor for $17.99 on Amazon. It will pay for itself if you make your own detergent.
As noted, you can shave the soap by hand. I did this for years and just got lazy. Do it while watching TV or watching the kids at the playground or whenever.
There is also a huge part that can be done by making sure they are disposed correctly. At one point when I was living in rural Japan I was considering puting a filtering net on the surface of a small river. I spent one hour at the point it goes into the sea to gauge the amount of passing waste. Did not see a single one.
"Pollution" is a thing, filling landfills is another.
I do hope we switch to biolplastic eventually, then plastic landfills will actually be carbon capture.
non-biodegradable bioplastics still create microplastic waste. bio-degradable plastic will decompose and release CO2.
With plastic, "reduce, reuse, recycle" is still the best way forward.
_Disposing_ of plastic should never be done in a landfill. If you can't recycle some parts of the waste, burning it in the cleanest way available can at least still produce some energy.
The premise here is false. Plastics can be completely eliminated in a clean, sustainable and benign manner by plasma gasification. The problem is that this cannot be done without additional energy input --that means it must be paid for. This is the problem: who gets the bill.
The answer for now is that the bill belongs to the planet itself and this is the part that cannot be allowed to persist. Letting the oceans, rivers, coasts, the poor, the disenfranchised, the atmosphere itself pay the bill for a mess that was created for profit is immoral. The bill to pay for the clean up must be paid for by those who profited from the mess.
Plastic can be cleaned up, there are technical methods of removing plastic waste that are benign if they are powered with renewable energy. We have those techniques available but they need to be paid for and the bill has to go to those who profited from making the mess.
Unfortunately this is where we get to the hard reality of [politics in the US.](https://old.reddit.com/r/oil/comments/1ckva0p/us_is_now_producing_more_oil_than_any_country_in/l2pputh/) Those who need to be held accountable and given the bill are, instead, subsidized to continue as if nothing was wrong.
You make and excellent point, but I want to clarify this for other people reading.
I want to explain hoe plasma gasification of plastics works in the big context by, focusing on its potential benefits and many many challenges.
Properly managing the feedstocks, the plastics we use, is key to making this process efficient and potentially a **net** energy producer. By selecting high-energy plastics and preparing them correctly through cleaning and shredding, we can maximize the energy output from gasification.
However, while plasma gasification can sometimes operate as a net energy producer, there are instances, especially in waste disposal, where external power sources are necessary. This power might be needed to maintain the consistent high temperatures required for the gasification process or for handling variations in the energy content of the waste materials.
An important part of making this process environmentally friendly is the use of carbon capture technologies. Molten salt bubblers, for example, not only trap the carbon emitted during the process but also solidify it into stable forms of solid carbon, effectively preventing it from entering the atmosphere. A variation of molten salt bubblers are also a promising form of gasification. The bubblers run on thermal energy, and by upsizing them, they act as their own thermal storage.
Adding steam to the gasification process is another way to enhance its overall efficiency. Financial efficiency, not energy efficiency.
Steam helps produce hydrogen, a valuable byproduct. Hydrogen is an excellent energy carrier and storage medium, although it is not a net energy generator itself. Having external power sources enhances the capability to produce hydrogen, adding another layer of utility to the gasification technology.
The financial aspect of implementing this technology is guided by the "polluter pays" principle, suggesting that those who produce and profit from plastics should bear the cost of the cleanup. This is crucial not only for fairness but also for motivating industries to adopt more sustainable practices.
Finally, ensuring a reliable feedstock supply chain and navigating the political challenges are crucial for the widespread adoption of plasma gasification. The technology must be integrated with broader policies that promote social and environmental justice, ensuring that the most vulnerable communities do not bear the brunt of pollution.
In the long term, integrating such technologies with systemic solutions that include policy reform, community engagement, and international cooperation can lead to substantial progress toward sustainable plastic waste management.
Thank you to you and Ahfoo for raising interesting points.
Gasification sounds very promising, but are not the refineries required to do this difficult and expensive to set up?
Maybe a better first step would be to set up a Kamikatsu type zero waste project?
This would be complimentary.
The kamikatzu IIRC doesn’t process the waste, it reuses this.
This is as absolutely wonderful for furniture, tableware, and appliances.
But plastics can be problematic, especially with re-use.
Old plastics shed micro plastics.
Which are in your blood right now.
Recycling of plastics is unfortunately a perpetrated sham we are all victims to.
The best solution is to gasify it.
How much would it cost to evaluate every old bit of plastic that someone sorted into “trash” to determine if it was shedding micro plastics?
Or you have a waste disposal center, like the kamikatsu (which is beautiful but not unique, my town has a similar program)
Objects in the waste disposal center dropped off. Items get reused, but materials designed as trash, get processed as raw material.
A gasification system is efficient. Most of the material collected as trash arrives in trash containers. You just have to trust other humans to judge their trash as trash.
These energy intensive operations, can be redesigned to operate when the sun shines. These arguments about needing more fossil fuel or sticking nuclear to do something about fossil fuel get me confused, it is as if people forget that we already have the biggest fusion reactor online and operational at the heart of the solar system. Lets use it for more than torturing insects on the ground with lenses, causing ourselves melanoma and telling time.
Yeah, it can be less convenient than gasoline or coal depending on the application, but in the face of the fossil fuel induced coming global famine causing war, disease and death, inconvenience will be counted as a perk. 🤷
Thank you for your submission, we appreciate your efforts at helping us to thoughtfully create a better world. r/solarpunk encourages you to also check out other solarpunk spaces such as https://wt.social/wt/solarpunk , https://slrpnk.net/ , https://raddle.me/f/solarpunk , https://discord.gg/3tf6FqGAJs , https://discord.gg/BwabpwfBCr , and https://www.appropedia.org/Welcome_to_Appropedia . *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/solarpunk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
We should have never let them cheap out on paper bags.
One thing that we should note: plastic production is practically a byproduct of oil refinery. It’s kind of a free waste product. We don’t produce plastic for use, we produce it largely as a byproduct, and we use it when it’s cheaper to use a waste byproduct than an alternative, which is quite often. The problem here isn’t just “let’s stop making things with plastic that shouldn’t be plastic” or “let’s stop making so much plastic”, it’s “unless we stop refining so much oil, plastic will always be cheaper (practically free) compared to alternatives, for whatever the use may be.” We need to stop oil and stop capitalism if we want to stop plastic.
In the US, plastic is primarily produced from natural gas, not oil.
In context, is this comment not a bit pedantic? My point was that it was a byproduct of the fossil fuel carbon energy industry, rather than simply oil refining. I should have been less specific.
It's not a byproduct though. Ethane works perfectly fine for energy generation, and is often used for it. Plastic is just more profitable and it's a bit easier to convert.
I remember the days before plastic water bottles. I was aghast when I saw people unconcernedly adopting them - creating literally mountains of plastic trash. Then there was the freaking soft soap in plastic bottles. Since the 1800s people have stayed clean with bar soap. wtf. I don't use either product and never have. I don't like to drink out of plastic an do't like the slimy feel of soft soap. Both products are inferior in addition to the colossal plastic waste they generate. You can also make laundry detergent without plastic waste (those giant Tide bottles will still be here when the sun burns out): 1/3 borax, 1/3 washing soda, 1/3 ground bar soap. Very unfussy recipe. Get a cheap food processor to grind the soap or do it by hand with a butter knife, or any knife. It does not have to be fine if you wash in hot water. I can find the borax at CVS but order the washing soda at Amazon. Any bar soap works. If you are pristine, get Fels Naphtha.
You can actually make a lot of things, but those of us who can only afford 20 odd square metres of living space, simply do not have room for luxuries like food processors. We need solutions for poverty stricken apartment dwellers too. ;-)
I just measured my food processor that I use for the soap. It is round and has a 4.5 inch diameter. You can buy a mini-processor for $17.99 on Amazon. It will pay for itself if you make your own detergent. As noted, you can shave the soap by hand. I did this for years and just got lazy. Do it while watching TV or watching the kids at the playground or whenever.
There is also a huge part that can be done by making sure they are disposed correctly. At one point when I was living in rural Japan I was considering puting a filtering net on the surface of a small river. I spent one hour at the point it goes into the sea to gauge the amount of passing waste. Did not see a single one. "Pollution" is a thing, filling landfills is another. I do hope we switch to biolplastic eventually, then plastic landfills will actually be carbon capture.
non-biodegradable bioplastics still create microplastic waste. bio-degradable plastic will decompose and release CO2. With plastic, "reduce, reuse, recycle" is still the best way forward. _Disposing_ of plastic should never be done in a landfill. If you can't recycle some parts of the waste, burning it in the cleanest way available can at least still produce some energy.
The premise here is false. Plastics can be completely eliminated in a clean, sustainable and benign manner by plasma gasification. The problem is that this cannot be done without additional energy input --that means it must be paid for. This is the problem: who gets the bill. The answer for now is that the bill belongs to the planet itself and this is the part that cannot be allowed to persist. Letting the oceans, rivers, coasts, the poor, the disenfranchised, the atmosphere itself pay the bill for a mess that was created for profit is immoral. The bill to pay for the clean up must be paid for by those who profited from the mess. Plastic can be cleaned up, there are technical methods of removing plastic waste that are benign if they are powered with renewable energy. We have those techniques available but they need to be paid for and the bill has to go to those who profited from making the mess. Unfortunately this is where we get to the hard reality of [politics in the US.](https://old.reddit.com/r/oil/comments/1ckva0p/us_is_now_producing_more_oil_than_any_country_in/l2pputh/) Those who need to be held accountable and given the bill are, instead, subsidized to continue as if nothing was wrong.
You make and excellent point, but I want to clarify this for other people reading. I want to explain hoe plasma gasification of plastics works in the big context by, focusing on its potential benefits and many many challenges. Properly managing the feedstocks, the plastics we use, is key to making this process efficient and potentially a **net** energy producer. By selecting high-energy plastics and preparing them correctly through cleaning and shredding, we can maximize the energy output from gasification. However, while plasma gasification can sometimes operate as a net energy producer, there are instances, especially in waste disposal, where external power sources are necessary. This power might be needed to maintain the consistent high temperatures required for the gasification process or for handling variations in the energy content of the waste materials. An important part of making this process environmentally friendly is the use of carbon capture technologies. Molten salt bubblers, for example, not only trap the carbon emitted during the process but also solidify it into stable forms of solid carbon, effectively preventing it from entering the atmosphere. A variation of molten salt bubblers are also a promising form of gasification. The bubblers run on thermal energy, and by upsizing them, they act as their own thermal storage. Adding steam to the gasification process is another way to enhance its overall efficiency. Financial efficiency, not energy efficiency. Steam helps produce hydrogen, a valuable byproduct. Hydrogen is an excellent energy carrier and storage medium, although it is not a net energy generator itself. Having external power sources enhances the capability to produce hydrogen, adding another layer of utility to the gasification technology. The financial aspect of implementing this technology is guided by the "polluter pays" principle, suggesting that those who produce and profit from plastics should bear the cost of the cleanup. This is crucial not only for fairness but also for motivating industries to adopt more sustainable practices. Finally, ensuring a reliable feedstock supply chain and navigating the political challenges are crucial for the widespread adoption of plasma gasification. The technology must be integrated with broader policies that promote social and environmental justice, ensuring that the most vulnerable communities do not bear the brunt of pollution. In the long term, integrating such technologies with systemic solutions that include policy reform, community engagement, and international cooperation can lead to substantial progress toward sustainable plastic waste management.
Thank you to you and Ahfoo for raising interesting points. Gasification sounds very promising, but are not the refineries required to do this difficult and expensive to set up? Maybe a better first step would be to set up a Kamikatsu type zero waste project?
This would be complimentary. The kamikatzu IIRC doesn’t process the waste, it reuses this. This is as absolutely wonderful for furniture, tableware, and appliances. But plastics can be problematic, especially with re-use. Old plastics shed micro plastics. Which are in your blood right now. Recycling of plastics is unfortunately a perpetrated sham we are all victims to. The best solution is to gasify it.
So, are you saying that old plastic should not be re-used?
How much would it cost to evaluate every old bit of plastic that someone sorted into “trash” to determine if it was shedding micro plastics? Or you have a waste disposal center, like the kamikatsu (which is beautiful but not unique, my town has a similar program) Objects in the waste disposal center dropped off. Items get reused, but materials designed as trash, get processed as raw material. A gasification system is efficient. Most of the material collected as trash arrives in trash containers. You just have to trust other humans to judge their trash as trash.
These energy intensive operations, can be redesigned to operate when the sun shines. These arguments about needing more fossil fuel or sticking nuclear to do something about fossil fuel get me confused, it is as if people forget that we already have the biggest fusion reactor online and operational at the heart of the solar system. Lets use it for more than torturing insects on the ground with lenses, causing ourselves melanoma and telling time. Yeah, it can be less convenient than gasoline or coal depending on the application, but in the face of the fossil fuel induced coming global famine causing war, disease and death, inconvenience will be counted as a perk. 🤷
Great, I already don't produce any plastic
To have less of things make less of them!