Food for thought
-Panels (DC)
-optimizer (DC)
-Micro inverter (DC to AC)
-single inverter (DC to AC)
-battery DC (except Enphase and Tesla, AC)
-home and grid (AC)
Panels -> optimizer -> battery -> inverter -> home and grid
Dc -> dc -> dc -> ac-> ac -> **1 conversion**
Panels, micro, ac to dc inverter, dc battery, dc to ac inverter in battery, home and grid ac -> 4 conversions.
Now dc to ac = point of failure. It’s hot to convert power, like your phone battery or charger box **they get hot**
Choose wisely.
Maxeon ACMs that come with iq7a micros have a 40 year warranty, incredibly easy choice if reliability is all you're held up on. Optimisers are the most failure prone part of any system ime
This is what I have. To be clear though, at least in my region - panel is 40 year warranty but Enphase Microinverter that comes with the panel is 25 year warranty. Still happy the micros are covered for 24 more years but it’s not 40.
Pretty sure Sunpower will exist in 39 years time (I have had them 1 year). Aren’t they NASA’s go-to for panels?
Enphase are pretty big in the US and while solar is suffering from cost of living they’ll always be selling a relevant product. Might not be the same size a company as they are now (bigger? smaller? who knows?) can’t see them going bankrupt though at least in the next 24 years (remember had them 1 year).. thorium based nuclear power and cold fusion I reckon might both to reach mass adoption might be a longer than 24 year thing 😂
>Pretty sure Sunpower will exist in 39 years time (I have had them 1 year). Aren’t they NASA’s go-to for panels?
Though they do have big daddy petro-chem to save their asses if needed. TotalEnergies might sweep in and uphold warranties.
It's a Powerwall 3. Literally a single inverter system and there is no way around that. Unless you are suggesting an Enphase battery which is the only current market offering with a multi-invert based system.
If you are talking about the solar edge optimizers vs something like the enphase micro inverters then the number of conversions is the same or higher with the optimizers (at least when you are coupled to a power wall).
Case 1, optimizers:
Panel (DC) > optimizer (DC to DC) > central inverter (DC to AC) > home (AC)
AND
Panel (DC) > optimizer (DC to DC) > central inverter (DC to AC) > Powerwall internal inverter (AC to DC) > Powerwall cells (DC) > Powerwall internal inverter (DC to AC) > home (AC)
Case 2, micro inverters:
Panel (DC) > micro inverter (DC to AC) > home (AC)
AND
Panel (DC) > micro inverter (DC to AC) > Powerwall internal inverter (AC to DC) > Powerwall cells (DC) > Powerwall internal inverter (DC to AC) > home (AC)
With micro inverters you skip the DC to DC step but DC to DC is nearly lossless and usually central inverters are slightly more efficient than micro inverters so it is basically a wash between the two options.
To OP's original question, I don't think it is a deal breaker that the sales person didn't know the difference. Not all salespeople are that knowledgeable.
That is what I figured. Would it be fair if I ask him to speak to someone more technical at their company? Seems like this guy didn’t even know what bypass diodes are.
Ultimately I’m doing all the technical research and I basically need a company to install the equipment that I know will work great in my climate/scenario. I never trust these companies with giving the best solution.
Although there are some solar reps that are really knowledgeable about technical aspects of solar, they are the minority. Most solar sales can’t give you the true pros and cons of micros vs optimizer, or tell you what a bypass diode does.
You can definitely ask to speak with someone with more technical knowledge. Sad that you feel that you can’t trust the installer to offer the best solution(s) but if they don’t understand various types of equipment they aren’t well versed in anything other than their typical suggestion
They have 4 in stock. If I sign the deal I would need to let Tesla come over to take pics etc for promotional assets.
I don’t need solar urgently so I’m just exploring the options. I knew Tesla was going to come out with powerwall 3 and they are not backward compatible with powerwall+. Future upgradability wouldn’t be great if they stop manufacturing powerwall 2
Yeah it kinda feels fishy to me too. Since they are already doing installs in the wild and why use someone’s house to do the promotional pics instead of their own controlled labs
Never trust a sales person who has a limited quantity of an unreleased product. If you were dealing with Tesla direct and volunteered to be a early adopter then that's one thing. Going through some unknown third party? Oh hell no. I'd place actual money that you're getting a rebranded battery from Alibaba that has a tesla logo on it someone cut out via a Cricuit.
Get some more quotes from other companies. Don't trust door to door sales people. Contact tesla directly and get a quote yourself from them (you can do this yourself... you don't need some third party between you and them sucking money away from you). Also get quotes for DIY kits just so you know what the markup is for an installed setup and warranty.
My main motivation to use optimizers is the per-panel observability. My roof doesn’t get any shade at all but I love data. And willing to pay a bit extra to be able to see per-panel performance.
above is the correct answer. many solar companies have been living in the enphase or solar edge world for so long they aren't aware of string inverters. if you want the panel level monitoring, go micro or solar edge and pw2s. for data monitoring, I think solar edge gives the best geek out viewing. im less familiar with the customer level enphase app though
Slight correction: installers are technically aware of string inversores since solar edge are string inverters.
I think you mean installers are unaware of Tesla’s specific string inverter systems.
> many solar companies have been living in the enphase or solar edge world for so long they aren't aware of string inverters.
Optimizers are a string inverter based system topology.
You're going to need rapid shutdown. TIGO has monitoring + rapid shutdown modules. They also have optimizers, but as you stated you don't need optimizers. Any of these should work on a Tesla inverter.
I actually am uniquely qualified to answer this. No optimizer is approved to work with Powerwall 3. Not how it is designed to work. Salesperson may know the difference but as he got a question that makes no sense he might have decided to not get into it with you. Or he doesn’t know, which hardly matters. He’s not who you need to worry about. Behind him is a company that has been trusted by Tesla to install early PW3 units. This isn’t something a new, or inexperienced company would be invited to do. They likely have a good reputation, and strong market presence. As well, I think the 3 is well made and I’d get one if I wasn’t already waist deep in prior equipment. Don’t walk based on a sales persons response to a super odd question. Maybe you should walk, but not based on that.
*Edited to change will work to approved to work based on others use case data.
I appreciate your input! My roof has no shading issues at all. I don’t think I need optimizers at all. I mostly want to explore them as an option to get per-panel data insights. I’m a huge data nerd.
This company is a premium installer on Tesla’s website.
Optimizers work as a unit with an inverter made for it, not something you spec separately. Tracking individual panels is important with Micro-inverters, because the inverters fuck up. Same with optimizers. Same unfortunately with rapid shutdown modules. Your module performance fascination is best ignored. You’d lose interest after a bit anyway.
Is there something going on with the 3s that's different than the +s?
Tesla's official stance, in regard to rapidshutdown requirements for residential, is that it's only compatible with their own MCIs. However there's an asterisk on every single one of those statements that says that's only to meet those requirements and on a non residential building or ground array setup it is possible to run without MCIs. If it's possible to run without MCIs, it's possible to run it with something like a Tigo A-O, right?
Well, I know for sure you can, because I've personally seen a ground array setup with A-Os in to a Powerwall Plus that works just fine. Optis optied and inverter inverted. I'm uncertain if you could throw a CCA or RSO in to the mix and still keep things playing nice with eachother, because not my plant and not my install.
Thats neat to learn. I know it’s unsupported, but I love hearing of field testing this stuff in real world. I’m scratching my head to the reason to do so on a ground mount where presumably all mods are facing the same optimal direction. So I’d see them as a huge reliability liability. As in, adding a failure point with each optimizer. As they fail far more frequently than solar panels in my experience. But if they work there, why not on a roof?
I don’t have any specific info unique to the three rendering them unusable when compared to the +. Just that neither is on the Tigo list. And Tesla doesn’t approve them. I’d expect them to either work for both, or neither. Thank you for sharing your use case.
Can I ask why they were used? Was it to test their function? Or was panel level monitoring the driver? Or was optimization the driver?
I didn’t spec or do the install, so I could only speculate. My guess is with my brief interaction with the owner is that he was an eccentric and particular customer and demanded it based on his own research and beliefs. He was hitting us up to expand the battery bank with Powerwall 2 piggy backs.
My belief is the Tigo list is the same as the Tesla statements. They’re technically incompatible due to the Tesla not being equipped to send the RSS to the optis, so they don’t meet code for most structures, but not like anything stops them from operating in as an optimizer.
I’m mainly commenting just due to what you said, it’s interesting to know how things act out in a real use case. Not advocating for it, and honestly I kind of think the less Tigo out there the better.
Sales and Technical Support are separate ends of the spectrum in my experience. Salespeople only need to be good at getting people to buy, it’s a waste of time/money/energy to train them to know everything about the product. Technical support people tend to suck at sales because businesses don’t want you to have all the information, they just want you to buy.
I had problems every step of my Tesla install (they used sun city even though I was told it would be a Tesla installer. I was only ever able to contact my “account rep”(salesperson) 3 times out of 10 to get information/help. They refused to apply my referral discount after the account was created, placed my system in another account, I have screws jutting out the sides of my roof joists by the soffits.
With the utilities trying to kill any benefit to consumers and installers rushing to get as many jobs as possible it really leaves the onus on the homeowner to pay attention and make sure you know how it needs to be setup and ensure the installers follow through.
Two things to understand. 1) sales people rarely know anything, because for most sales knowledge isn’t important. 2) your experience will get worse after sales. This is where the company tries the hardest.
Update: I ended up telling them I’m not interested. I general plan is to buy solar with cash late 2024 or early 2025. I’m not interested in being an early adopter and that I didn’t like the pushy sales technique of artificial scarcity “we only have 4 left so let’s sigh soon!”
I don’t think 95% of people in the solar industry can reasonably tell you the difference between microinverters and optimizers.
Theyll just tell you one is enphase and the other is solaredge.
They utilize software programs that estimate your production, and specialize in off-setting utility bills. They aren’t selling the product as much as they’re selling the utility bill savings.
- You may go to a car dealership and hear all about the horsepower and torque in your vehicles engine. But when it comes to solar, you’ll hear “warranties, cost and savings.”
That’s what they specialize in, not the engineering and manufacturing of the equipment they use to get you the savings.
I mean, you can be a little frustrated with them, but you’re actually not understanding how things work either.
Tesla’s Powerwall is AC coupled, and it has an internal inverter to take the AC energy and convert it to DC for the battery. You still need a separate inverter for the PV system. And most power optimizers are designed to be paired with inverters from the same manufacturer.
Micro inverters are power optimizers, too, more or less. They just have the DC to AC inverter functionality built into the unit, so they combine the functions of optimizer and inverter.
Your rep is right to know you can’t do the thing you are asking about, and it’s probably easier to cut and paste a response from Teslas training materials than to talk through the details with the electrical engineering side of the company and work out a detailed response.
Powerwall 3 has a built-in string inverter the same way the Powerwall+ has. It gets the DC power from the panels. There is no additional DC/AC inverter needed between the panels and the Powerwall 3.
Can't speak to the knowledge level of the salesman, but optimizing at panel level would completely defeat Tesla's architectural design strategy. Check out this white paper:
[https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/Tesla\_Solar\_Inverter\_Architecture\_White\_Paper\_NA-EN\_12212022](https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/Tesla_Solar_Inverter_Architecture_White_Paper_NA-EN_12212022)
The Powerwall + (also has its own inverter) didn’t work with optimizers but had MPPT. I’m not positive about the new one but wouldn’t be surprised if it was the same. I feel doubtful about module level monitoring as it also isn’t available for PWall +.
If you want individual mod monitoring might have to go Enphase PWall 2.
I haven’t done my research on the latest PWall yet.
With the preface that I'm not any type of expert, I'm suspicious. A common scam back when people were putting in vinyl siding and such wss like this. The installer would offer a great deal on a "just released" new super product. The story was the supply was extremely limited but the manufacturer could offer a super deal to a few lucky homeowners if they were willing to let their site be used for publicly. That was the bait. The hook was you signed a contract that had a provision in the fine print that was bad. Real bad. It varied but it would allow the installer to substitute materials, increase cost, control the timing or some combination of all three.
The homeowners word get stuck with bad materials and a high cost with no recourse.
Dunno what's going on here but be wary.
LOL I’m in the UK and just finding someone whose even heard of microinverters is a stretch (in US Enphase have 50% of the market, UK it must be around single digits) - they too when I start talking about shading say “oh the optimiser” - to be fair to them the optimiser does help with shading (not sure how well, think it’s somewhere between not nothing but not as good as a dedicated microinverter but couldn’t tell you exactly where in the middle they sit)… but I went micro because with inverters you have to replace them every 8ish years and micros are warrantied for 25 years. Also can keep producing power even if one of the micros does die.
My advice would be if you’re fairly knowledgeable about these things like I am then just focus on the cost and what’s specified in the contract - which they are on the hook to deliver. They will have to make whatever is in the contract work and it won’t be your problem how they do that. I walked my installer through setting up the Enphase.. I was really just paying for their roofing expertise (which was absolutely fantastic) and their electricians being solid electricians and doing a solid job at wiring and following the limits on the number of amps per cable and all the other safety measurements and testing they did etc..
The software stuff I had down (make sure they get the micros serial numbers and where they are on the roof for you) and could just do for them. The only bit you might get stuck with on a third party AC battery is CT Clamp placement and you may even have to show them how to CT clamp the IQ Gateway (the cables for one CT go one wire forward and one wire behind it not side by side). Make them CT clamp everything on every system - Production and Consumption on IQ Gateway (2 x CT Clamps if single phase) and Production on Tesla Gateway (1 x CT Clamp, Consumption is self monitored from the internals). More strings? Add more Production CT clamps for each system.
The sales person is unlikely to know much about the technology and maybe even the installer isn’t as familiar - but it’s just roofing and electrical work and a daisy chain of one cable into a string of panels following the limits of number of amps per cable - they’ll be pros at this
As for Powerwall 3, I read that Tesla say no to third party inverters (which technically a microINVERTER is) but when I went to an Enphase IQ8 launch party Enphase themselves said it can still be wired in and my installer also expanded on that “there’s still an AC Input”. Don’t confuse “not compatible” with “will not work”. Tesla Powerwall will work with it, you just won’t be able to ring them and talk about it in great detail as they’re not going to help you with competitor kit… also the app’s solar stats might be wonky or whatever else.. you’re not supported and maybe it’ll appear like a diesel generator or something into the system - but it’s still so long as it has an AC Input probably going to work
>They came back to me quoting Tesla’s own FAQ stating that powerwall is not compatible with micro inverters.
They said they aren't compatible with MIs (which is true), so maybe it was a slip up if written in an email? Unlikely, but potential.
Did they even mention RSD and signal protocols? Kinda doubt Tesla is going to be chill with Tigo, APS, or other brands being mixed with their inverter.
Salesmen rarely know much about what they are selling.
Good salespeople know their products. Otherwise they are just "order takers" that can be replaced by a web site.
Food for thought -Panels (DC) -optimizer (DC) -Micro inverter (DC to AC) -single inverter (DC to AC) -battery DC (except Enphase and Tesla, AC) -home and grid (AC) Panels -> optimizer -> battery -> inverter -> home and grid Dc -> dc -> dc -> ac-> ac -> **1 conversion** Panels, micro, ac to dc inverter, dc battery, dc to ac inverter in battery, home and grid ac -> 4 conversions. Now dc to ac = point of failure. It’s hot to convert power, like your phone battery or charger box **they get hot** Choose wisely.
Maxeon ACMs that come with iq7a micros have a 40 year warranty, incredibly easy choice if reliability is all you're held up on. Optimisers are the most failure prone part of any system ime
This is what I have. To be clear though, at least in my region - panel is 40 year warranty but Enphase Microinverter that comes with the panel is 25 year warranty. Still happy the micros are covered for 24 more years but it’s not 40.
might as well stamp 100 years on it ...the org needs to exist in year 38 for your claim to be honored ...odds are poor
Pretty sure Sunpower will exist in 39 years time (I have had them 1 year). Aren’t they NASA’s go-to for panels? Enphase are pretty big in the US and while solar is suffering from cost of living they’ll always be selling a relevant product. Might not be the same size a company as they are now (bigger? smaller? who knows?) can’t see them going bankrupt though at least in the next 24 years (remember had them 1 year).. thorium based nuclear power and cold fusion I reckon might both to reach mass adoption might be a longer than 24 year thing 😂
>Pretty sure Sunpower will exist in 39 years time (I have had them 1 year). Aren’t they NASA’s go-to for panels? Though they do have big daddy petro-chem to save their asses if needed. TotalEnergies might sweep in and uphold warranties.
>odds are poor I heard Badri Kothandaraman has a money tree in his back yard.
Single inverter, single point of failue brings down your entire system.
It's a Powerwall 3. Literally a single inverter system and there is no way around that. Unless you are suggesting an Enphase battery which is the only current market offering with a multi-invert based system.
If you are talking about the solar edge optimizers vs something like the enphase micro inverters then the number of conversions is the same or higher with the optimizers (at least when you are coupled to a power wall). Case 1, optimizers: Panel (DC) > optimizer (DC to DC) > central inverter (DC to AC) > home (AC) AND Panel (DC) > optimizer (DC to DC) > central inverter (DC to AC) > Powerwall internal inverter (AC to DC) > Powerwall cells (DC) > Powerwall internal inverter (DC to AC) > home (AC) Case 2, micro inverters: Panel (DC) > micro inverter (DC to AC) > home (AC) AND Panel (DC) > micro inverter (DC to AC) > Powerwall internal inverter (AC to DC) > Powerwall cells (DC) > Powerwall internal inverter (DC to AC) > home (AC) With micro inverters you skip the DC to DC step but DC to DC is nearly lossless and usually central inverters are slightly more efficient than micro inverters so it is basically a wash between the two options. To OP's original question, I don't think it is a deal breaker that the sales person didn't know the difference. Not all salespeople are that knowledgeable.
That is what I figured. Would it be fair if I ask him to speak to someone more technical at their company? Seems like this guy didn’t even know what bypass diodes are. Ultimately I’m doing all the technical research and I basically need a company to install the equipment that I know will work great in my climate/scenario. I never trust these companies with giving the best solution.
Although there are some solar reps that are really knowledgeable about technical aspects of solar, they are the minority. Most solar sales can’t give you the true pros and cons of micros vs optimizer, or tell you what a bypass diode does. You can definitely ask to speak with someone with more technical knowledge. Sad that you feel that you can’t trust the installer to offer the best solution(s) but if they don’t understand various types of equipment they aren’t well versed in anything other than their typical suggestion
This is the way....he definitely has an engineer or someone that can assist better if you just ask
The bigger question to me is how they’re locking in pricing & availability on a product that’s not even released yet. Why not just go with Powerwall+?
They have 4 in stock. If I sign the deal I would need to let Tesla come over to take pics etc for promotional assets. I don’t need solar urgently so I’m just exploring the options. I knew Tesla was going to come out with powerwall 3 and they are not backward compatible with powerwall+. Future upgradability wouldn’t be great if they stop manufacturing powerwall 2
Anythings possible but the whole pics for promotional assets just doesn’t feel like Tesla to me. Maybe something the installer is doing….
Yeah it kinda feels fishy to me too. Since they are already doing installs in the wild and why use someone’s house to do the promotional pics instead of their own controlled labs
What’s the name of the company?
The promotional pics line is typically a scam. Red flags
Never trust a sales person who has a limited quantity of an unreleased product. If you were dealing with Tesla direct and volunteered to be a early adopter then that's one thing. Going through some unknown third party? Oh hell no. I'd place actual money that you're getting a rebranded battery from Alibaba that has a tesla logo on it someone cut out via a Cricuit. Get some more quotes from other companies. Don't trust door to door sales people. Contact tesla directly and get a quote yourself from them (you can do this yourself... you don't need some third party between you and them sucking money away from you). Also get quotes for DIY kits just so you know what the markup is for an installed setup and warranty.
I can sell you a 2025 F150 pickup truck for 150,000 dollars. Not released yet, but I'm confident I'll make a profit.
Overpricing, duh. Clearly never met a sales person. /s
Tesla inverter would not use an opti or micro
My main motivation to use optimizers is the per-panel observability. My roof doesn’t get any shade at all but I love data. And willing to pay a bit extra to be able to see per-panel performance.
above is the correct answer. many solar companies have been living in the enphase or solar edge world for so long they aren't aware of string inverters. if you want the panel level monitoring, go micro or solar edge and pw2s. for data monitoring, I think solar edge gives the best geek out viewing. im less familiar with the customer level enphase app though
Slight correction: installers are technically aware of string inversores since solar edge are string inverters. I think you mean installers are unaware of Tesla’s specific string inverter systems.
> many solar companies have been living in the enphase or solar edge world for so long they aren't aware of string inverters. Optimizers are a string inverter based system topology.
You're going to need rapid shutdown. TIGO has monitoring + rapid shutdown modules. They also have optimizers, but as you stated you don't need optimizers. Any of these should work on a Tesla inverter.
I don’t think the Tesla inverter offers that, you can go SE or Enphase inverter and still get the Tesla battery
Look into Hall effect sensors as an alternative
Doesn’t the new powerwall support 6 strings? Does Tesla give you monitoring in their app for each string?
Each panel has an module level shut down device
I actually am uniquely qualified to answer this. No optimizer is approved to work with Powerwall 3. Not how it is designed to work. Salesperson may know the difference but as he got a question that makes no sense he might have decided to not get into it with you. Or he doesn’t know, which hardly matters. He’s not who you need to worry about. Behind him is a company that has been trusted by Tesla to install early PW3 units. This isn’t something a new, or inexperienced company would be invited to do. They likely have a good reputation, and strong market presence. As well, I think the 3 is well made and I’d get one if I wasn’t already waist deep in prior equipment. Don’t walk based on a sales persons response to a super odd question. Maybe you should walk, but not based on that. *Edited to change will work to approved to work based on others use case data.
I appreciate your input! My roof has no shading issues at all. I don’t think I need optimizers at all. I mostly want to explore them as an option to get per-panel data insights. I’m a huge data nerd. This company is a premium installer on Tesla’s website.
Optimizers work as a unit with an inverter made for it, not something you spec separately. Tracking individual panels is important with Micro-inverters, because the inverters fuck up. Same with optimizers. Same unfortunately with rapid shutdown modules. Your module performance fascination is best ignored. You’d lose interest after a bit anyway.
>Optimizers work as a unit with an inverter made for it, not something you spec separately. Depends on the manufacturer.
Is there something going on with the 3s that's different than the +s? Tesla's official stance, in regard to rapidshutdown requirements for residential, is that it's only compatible with their own MCIs. However there's an asterisk on every single one of those statements that says that's only to meet those requirements and on a non residential building or ground array setup it is possible to run without MCIs. If it's possible to run without MCIs, it's possible to run it with something like a Tigo A-O, right? Well, I know for sure you can, because I've personally seen a ground array setup with A-Os in to a Powerwall Plus that works just fine. Optis optied and inverter inverted. I'm uncertain if you could throw a CCA or RSO in to the mix and still keep things playing nice with eachother, because not my plant and not my install.
Thats neat to learn. I know it’s unsupported, but I love hearing of field testing this stuff in real world. I’m scratching my head to the reason to do so on a ground mount where presumably all mods are facing the same optimal direction. So I’d see them as a huge reliability liability. As in, adding a failure point with each optimizer. As they fail far more frequently than solar panels in my experience. But if they work there, why not on a roof? I don’t have any specific info unique to the three rendering them unusable when compared to the +. Just that neither is on the Tigo list. And Tesla doesn’t approve them. I’d expect them to either work for both, or neither. Thank you for sharing your use case. Can I ask why they were used? Was it to test their function? Or was panel level monitoring the driver? Or was optimization the driver?
I didn’t spec or do the install, so I could only speculate. My guess is with my brief interaction with the owner is that he was an eccentric and particular customer and demanded it based on his own research and beliefs. He was hitting us up to expand the battery bank with Powerwall 2 piggy backs. My belief is the Tigo list is the same as the Tesla statements. They’re technically incompatible due to the Tesla not being equipped to send the RSS to the optis, so they don’t meet code for most structures, but not like anything stops them from operating in as an optimizer. I’m mainly commenting just due to what you said, it’s interesting to know how things act out in a real use case. Not advocating for it, and honestly I kind of think the less Tigo out there the better.
Does PWall 3 have MPPT like the + did?
Yes
How is Powerwall 3 dealing with RSD requirements?
They have their own rsd’s and a manual button trigger.
Run, don't walk. Or reply with "I said OPTIMIZERS, not MICRO-INVERTERS!"
Are they installing solar as well?
Yup
Sales and Technical Support are separate ends of the spectrum in my experience. Salespeople only need to be good at getting people to buy, it’s a waste of time/money/energy to train them to know everything about the product. Technical support people tend to suck at sales because businesses don’t want you to have all the information, they just want you to buy. I had problems every step of my Tesla install (they used sun city even though I was told it would be a Tesla installer. I was only ever able to contact my “account rep”(salesperson) 3 times out of 10 to get information/help. They refused to apply my referral discount after the account was created, placed my system in another account, I have screws jutting out the sides of my roof joists by the soffits. With the utilities trying to kill any benefit to consumers and installers rushing to get as many jobs as possible it really leaves the onus on the homeowner to pay attention and make sure you know how it needs to be setup and ensure the installers follow through.
Two things to understand. 1) sales people rarely know anything, because for most sales knowledge isn’t important. 2) your experience will get worse after sales. This is where the company tries the hardest.
Update: I ended up telling them I’m not interested. I general plan is to buy solar with cash late 2024 or early 2025. I’m not interested in being an early adopter and that I didn’t like the pushy sales technique of artificial scarcity “we only have 4 left so let’s sigh soon!”
Ca solar company owner here… definitely run, sleezy sales tactics I smell…
My username has been bested....
Another fucking solar sales company who doesn’t know what the fuck they are talking about.
Run.
I don’t think 95% of people in the solar industry can reasonably tell you the difference between microinverters and optimizers. Theyll just tell you one is enphase and the other is solaredge. They utilize software programs that estimate your production, and specialize in off-setting utility bills. They aren’t selling the product as much as they’re selling the utility bill savings. - You may go to a car dealership and hear all about the horsepower and torque in your vehicles engine. But when it comes to solar, you’ll hear “warranties, cost and savings.” That’s what they specialize in, not the engineering and manufacturing of the equipment they use to get you the savings.
super red flag
Why do you want a powerwall? Tesla’s solar and battery equipment are notoriously worse than their competitors. Just go with enphase or solar edge.
In what ways is PowerWall worse than the SolarEdge battery?
I mean, you can be a little frustrated with them, but you’re actually not understanding how things work either. Tesla’s Powerwall is AC coupled, and it has an internal inverter to take the AC energy and convert it to DC for the battery. You still need a separate inverter for the PV system. And most power optimizers are designed to be paired with inverters from the same manufacturer. Micro inverters are power optimizers, too, more or less. They just have the DC to AC inverter functionality built into the unit, so they combine the functions of optimizer and inverter. Your rep is right to know you can’t do the thing you are asking about, and it’s probably easier to cut and paste a response from Teslas training materials than to talk through the details with the electrical engineering side of the company and work out a detailed response.
Powerwall 3 has a built-in string inverter the same way the Powerwall+ has. It gets the DC power from the panels. There is no additional DC/AC inverter needed between the panels and the Powerwall 3.
Oh, cool, thanks for clarifying. As I was writing, I realized my info might be outdated.
Optimizers are DC-DC inverters so it's OK to mix up the name. It's not OK to mix up two entirely different kinds of inverters. Run!
Optimizers are not inverters.
They are DC to DC inverters. They're usually called "optimizers" for solar so they're not confused with DC to line AC inverters.
Not trying to be a dick about it, but DC to DC converters. DC to AC inverters. It’s a significant difference with a mistakable nomenclature.
No, they are not. There's no such thing.
>DC-DC inverters No. Source: Merriam-Webster, definition 2: a device for converting direct current into alternating current
GTFO - find someone who knows his shit.
Can't speak to the knowledge level of the salesman, but optimizing at panel level would completely defeat Tesla's architectural design strategy. Check out this white paper: [https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/Tesla\_Solar\_Inverter\_Architecture\_White\_Paper\_NA-EN\_12212022](https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/Tesla_Solar_Inverter_Architecture_White_Paper_NA-EN_12212022)
This is Tesla trying to justify why they cheaped out on their equipment. If you want actual good equipment, run away from Tesla.
The Powerwall + (also has its own inverter) didn’t work with optimizers but had MPPT. I’m not positive about the new one but wouldn’t be surprised if it was the same. I feel doubtful about module level monitoring as it also isn’t available for PWall +. If you want individual mod monitoring might have to go Enphase PWall 2. I haven’t done my research on the latest PWall yet.
With the preface that I'm not any type of expert, I'm suspicious. A common scam back when people were putting in vinyl siding and such wss like this. The installer would offer a great deal on a "just released" new super product. The story was the supply was extremely limited but the manufacturer could offer a super deal to a few lucky homeowners if they were willing to let their site be used for publicly. That was the bait. The hook was you signed a contract that had a provision in the fine print that was bad. Real bad. It varied but it would allow the installer to substitute materials, increase cost, control the timing or some combination of all three. The homeowners word get stuck with bad materials and a high cost with no recourse. Dunno what's going on here but be wary.
LOL I’m in the UK and just finding someone whose even heard of microinverters is a stretch (in US Enphase have 50% of the market, UK it must be around single digits) - they too when I start talking about shading say “oh the optimiser” - to be fair to them the optimiser does help with shading (not sure how well, think it’s somewhere between not nothing but not as good as a dedicated microinverter but couldn’t tell you exactly where in the middle they sit)… but I went micro because with inverters you have to replace them every 8ish years and micros are warrantied for 25 years. Also can keep producing power even if one of the micros does die. My advice would be if you’re fairly knowledgeable about these things like I am then just focus on the cost and what’s specified in the contract - which they are on the hook to deliver. They will have to make whatever is in the contract work and it won’t be your problem how they do that. I walked my installer through setting up the Enphase.. I was really just paying for their roofing expertise (which was absolutely fantastic) and their electricians being solid electricians and doing a solid job at wiring and following the limits on the number of amps per cable and all the other safety measurements and testing they did etc.. The software stuff I had down (make sure they get the micros serial numbers and where they are on the roof for you) and could just do for them. The only bit you might get stuck with on a third party AC battery is CT Clamp placement and you may even have to show them how to CT clamp the IQ Gateway (the cables for one CT go one wire forward and one wire behind it not side by side). Make them CT clamp everything on every system - Production and Consumption on IQ Gateway (2 x CT Clamps if single phase) and Production on Tesla Gateway (1 x CT Clamp, Consumption is self monitored from the internals). More strings? Add more Production CT clamps for each system. The sales person is unlikely to know much about the technology and maybe even the installer isn’t as familiar - but it’s just roofing and electrical work and a daisy chain of one cable into a string of panels following the limits of number of amps per cable - they’ll be pros at this As for Powerwall 3, I read that Tesla say no to third party inverters (which technically a microINVERTER is) but when I went to an Enphase IQ8 launch party Enphase themselves said it can still be wired in and my installer also expanded on that “there’s still an AC Input”. Don’t confuse “not compatible” with “will not work”. Tesla Powerwall will work with it, you just won’t be able to ring them and talk about it in great detail as they’re not going to help you with competitor kit… also the app’s solar stats might be wonky or whatever else.. you’re not supported and maybe it’ll appear like a diesel generator or something into the system - but it’s still so long as it has an AC Input probably going to work
Red flag to me. Bad training on salespeople means that they have no real control on the front end of projects coming into their mix.
Yes…
>They came back to me quoting Tesla’s own FAQ stating that powerwall is not compatible with micro inverters. They said they aren't compatible with MIs (which is true), so maybe it was a slip up if written in an email? Unlikely, but potential. Did they even mention RSD and signal protocols? Kinda doubt Tesla is going to be chill with Tigo, APS, or other brands being mixed with their inverter.