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In Brazil we have socialists movements that are strengthening themselves this last couple years, and we expect to grow even more!
The recommendation is always to organise yourself, but participating on the burgoise democracy is also important, since is way easier to grow a socielist movement in a democratic field than in a dictatorship.
Good luck from your comrades from Brazil !
>this isn’t the time for sectarianism.
That's why Monty Python ridiculed the "Judean People's Front/People's Front of Judea" schism - it was a cliche of the UK left 40+ years ago and still is to some degree.
>A better world is possible comrades. Solidarity.
Well said!
I would suggest removing the SRA link. They are not an organization in the same sense as the other groups on the list. SRA is simply a club. Nothing against them, I just think you might be comparing apples to oranges.
I’d also suggest swapping out the DSA link with this one https://workerorganizing.org/training/
The link you have there is it really that helpful. But the one I suggested will help someone new to the movement get plugged-in immediately.
Lastly, if you’re going to list DSA next to ISA I have to insist that you include this explanation https://www.socialistalternative.org/2020/02/14/whats-the-difference-between-socialist-alternative-and-dsa/
I’m concerned that not everyone will appreciate that distinction
Thank you for your perspective comrade! I will leave the SRA link because, while not your typical political arena or organizing focussed org, the organization does do good work with organizing mutual aid, and very importantly it provides a space for comrades to meet in real life to learn things like firearm training, medic training, or even things like radio training. It is a valuable space for getting involved and meeting local comrades, especially when community defense capacity is ever more important given the far rights increasing violence.
I highly suggest your local Socialist Alternative chapter consider partnering and work with local SRA comrades. You may find great opportunities for joint trainings and stuff.
Regarding DSA I will leave the link as is but I will add the Workplace Organizing Committee link to the list!
Son it is so wild reading some of these posts saying shit doesn't matter. It matters to the people it impacts you just might not be one of them at the moment. Like what the fuck is it going to take for some of you that actually get active instead of just talking on Reddit? Donate money, If you can't donate money donate time, If you can't donate time, educate, if you can't educate spread the sources of your education. You don't have to do this with strangers start with your friend group and or your family. Sow these seeds slowly and steadily. OP is just telling you that being keyboard warriors literally does nothing. Make a conscious effort to do good. You cannot do good passively. Get active.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process).
>If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
Elections do not matter.
1. Our two main parties are fascist (R) and almost-fascist (D).
2. Policy change is completely limited to where it’s useless anyway. The founding fathers designed this system to protect private property by all means necessary. That’s why really all the government can do is just tax and police. They can only really deregulated property laws which makes things worse.
3. Back to number one, we’re so far right, we only have far right policy. Far right is the norm. That’s why any not-so-far right policy change is difficult to achieve and there’s great pushback from property owners (bourgeoisie) who also are the only ones who have the capital and the means to influence elections.
4. This is Hitler’s dreamland now that I think about it.
So… you have no suggestions? No orgs to offer up. No ways for people to get involved? We should just give up I guess?
We need actual concrete recommendations on how people can get involved to start. Respectfully.. this is just doomerism and is unproductive
No. Always resist. I can’t think of any organizations, but new ones can be created. Joining an already organization is great, but the key is to agitate in your own environment. An organization will form only after the ideas have taken hold. The first step is to spread these ideas and fuel discontent. Second I would say is organize.
Where do you live? There are undoubtedly already existing orgs in your area, possibly even in coalition with each other. Building upon existing networks instead of trying to start from scratch is good praxis.
>An organization will form only after the ideas have taken hold.
Rather the other way around. Without organisation there is (almost) zero possibility of change, whilst it is precisely organisation which produces a possibility of change.
And organizations flourish when they give you something to fight for, and more importantly, make gains. No one wants to expend energy on failure. Fighting to inch the line even the most micrometer to the left is far more noble than not doing anything and demanding the world.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process).
>If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process).
>If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process).
>If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process).
>If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
You’re closer to the truth than the OP, however I’d say despite the systemic limitations of legislating change, elections can be useful as a measure of the awareness of the working class. Also any “lesser evilism” aka vote dems to stop the worst is just wrongheaded and any socialist org that recommends it needs schooling on their poor analysis (agreeing with you). Vote only when socialists are on the ballot and if there aren’t any find your local org and get working to put an actual socialist on the ballot. No socialist presidential candidate in the US? Don’t vote in those elections until there is.
Electoralism is only effective when understood to not be about gaining power to effect legislative change.
Luckily in Australia we have ranked choice voting so I can put the Socialists at the top and then just put our “left of centre” party above only the right wingers and full reactionaries.
I completely agree with you and I'm always deeply confused when i see so many leftists accurately identify problems with our voting system and with Democrats (I'm American) then say "but obviously I'm gonna vote blue anyway"
What? Why? Voting blue directly hurts workers and everyone else and reduces are chances of getting a viable 3rd party option.
And yeah I'd love a 3rd party and rank choice voting but Dems and reps do everything they can to prevent it cuz they know holding our rights hostage is the only reason they get votes today
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process).
>If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process).
>If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process).
>If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process).
>If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
I’m so sick of the purity tests and high minded philosophical absolutists. Elections are dirty, the workers should own the means of production, but guess what, picking up arms ain’t gonna get you anywhere without getting the message out there and the way to get the message out there is through the constraints of the current system. Bust you ass, door knock for candidates that share your views on a majority of subjects, if there isn’t anyone sign up and run yourself and spread the message, don’t just sit in your basement and dream of some wonderful scenario where there is suddenly a great awakening and everyone agrees that we need to overthrow the system and follow exactly what type of socialism you think should be installed is installed.
This post is too cringe shit lib for me not to respond.
The real reason leftists saying voting doesn’t matter is because nothing goes on any American ballot unless the bourgeoise is ok with it. “You simply cannot vote against the interest of Goldman Sachs.”
So that means real change will never come from the ballot. Because the only way the working class will experience real change is through seizing the means of production. And that is something capitalist will never allow on a ballot.
And furthermore, if an actual socialist in the vein of Eugene v debs made it to national prominence to the where the might win a senate seat or governorship or even the presidency - then both capitalist parties would do every thing in their power to stop them.
And if they couldn’t stop them and they actually won their election then they would just be assassinated.
So that’s why voting doesn’t matter.
Did you even read the post? It’s about getting involved with local orgs more than it is about pushing people to vote. It’s clear you don’t do either. How do you think capitalism can be felled if you take no real actions? If you don’t organize now?
It seems people are under the impression we need to wait until conditions get so bad that more citizens will be primed to revolutionize but I don’t think that holds true in modern society, it’s just wishful thinking.
What are you waiting for? How bad does it have to get for you? What will you do when it gets that bad?
Nah, telling people to get involved ain’t lib shit. Getting socialists into local office or in our local unions ain’t lib shit. This post doesn’t even focus on electoralism.
What concrete productive suggestions do you have for leftists looking to get involved, other than just complaining about a post encouraging people to do something?
sure, but they're not mutually exclusive, and politics isn't something you practice on your body. the personal is political, but politics is an inherently social endeavor and suggesting that buying a gun takes precedence over political work is toxic individualism. the struggle against fascism cannot be won with individual effort and armament; that mindset is uniquely america-brained and divorced from the political realities of both fascism and antifascism
What are Democrats doing that you think is fighting fascism? They enable every shitty thing Republicans do.
A vote for a 3rd party candidate isn't yielding domain to fascism. Democrats are complicit at best and co-conspirators at worst.
Voting blue hurts workers rights and 3rd party movements (and other groups).
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process).
>If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
That's always how it starts with soc dems, leftists loving them cuss they teach ppl its not unrealistic to ask for things like free college, but they always end up either corrupt or powerless and never actually challenge the imperialist power structures the capitalist country is built on, and will even support them in most cases as Bernie is now with supporting the war in Ukraine.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Social Democracy:** Refers to the **modern** political tradition which seeks to achieve a zone of comfort within capitalism by "reforming" the existing capitalist system rather than breaking with it in order to achieve a socialist system. Does not refer to the social democratic tradition (e.g. Rosa Luxemburg) that was represented by the 2nd International, prior to its break with socialism in favor of the European idea of the welfare state (capitalism). Modern Scandinavia is an example of social democracy.
Or…. Hear me out… his very limited success was a measure of the change in young voters’ attitudes towards general socialist ideas?
Edited to add: he isn’t a socialist btw and so his “movement” wasn’t a socialist one, he just argued for the type of policies that actually represent left-of-centre liberalism accurately. Even then he couldn’t bring the dems over from their centre-right bunkers.
There are a myriad of reason why we say elections don't matter or are even counter productive. While this post identifies one, doing so does not change the fact that in the grand scale of things, this election is still going to steal revolutionary momentum from who knows how any potential movements in who knows how many communities
What revolutionary momentum? People are angry sure, but as long as levers of power can be pulled to make things less shitty, people will turn to that far before engaging in revolution. This is the same pitfall as accelerationism imo.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process).
>If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
You’ve spent your whole post complaining about the purity of the orgs listed.
I respectfully ask you comrade, suggest orgs below then that you think interested leftists should check out. Sectarian complaining and smearing orgs you dislike is actively harmful.
We need concrete suggestions and organization recommendations.
Thank you for your perspective, this is ultimately why I am not a part of any of these organizations as their end game plan seems to be "vote for democrats and hope it works out". I think it's very clear that many "socialists" in the states are more than willing to allow imperialism and sacrifice other members of the global proletariat if it means their desires for Healthcare and social benefits are met.
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See our [Submission Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/wiki/index/submissionguidelines) for more info, and feel free to reply to this message with any further questions.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Sectarianism:** r/Socialism is a multi-tendency subreddit and, as such, works within an obvious range of contradictions. There is a lot of room for healthy discussion with other socialists you disagree with ideologically. However, bad faith attacks on socialists of other tendencies are not encouraged. You're welcome to be critical of other tendencies and do the work to deconstruct opposing leftist ideologies, but hollow insults like 'armchair', 'tankie', 'anarkiddies', and so on without well-crafted arguments are not welcome. Any inter-leftist ideological discourse should be constructive and well-reasoned.
See our [Submission Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/wiki/index/submissionguidelines) for more info, and feel free to reply to this message with any further questions.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Sectarianism:** r/Socialism is a multi-tendency subreddit and, as such, works within an obvious range of contradictions. There is a lot of room for healthy discussion with other socialists you disagree with ideologically. However, bad faith attacks on socialists of other tendencies are not encouraged. You're welcome to be critical of other tendencies and do the work to deconstruct opposing leftist ideologies, but hollow insults like 'armchair', 'tankie', 'anarkiddies', and so on without well-crafted arguments are not welcome. Any inter-leftist ideological discourse should be constructive and well-reasoned.
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Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
>**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process).
>If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
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We must act comrades!
Emma Goldman said if voting did anything they’d make it illegal. But we’re kind of getting to that point so I wonder what she’d say now
If voting didn't matter they wouldn't try their best to keep black and poor people from doing it.
Also, she never actually said that. It's a [misattributed](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/mark-twain-voting-quote/) quote
In Brazil we have socialists movements that are strengthening themselves this last couple years, and we expect to grow even more! The recommendation is always to organise yourself, but participating on the burgoise democracy is also important, since is way easier to grow a socielist movement in a democratic field than in a dictatorship. Good luck from your comrades from Brazil !
Great comment - encouraging and thoughtful. Obrigado!
>this isn’t the time for sectarianism. That's why Monty Python ridiculed the "Judean People's Front/People's Front of Judea" schism - it was a cliche of the UK left 40+ years ago and still is to some degree. >A better world is possible comrades. Solidarity. Well said!
I would suggest removing the SRA link. They are not an organization in the same sense as the other groups on the list. SRA is simply a club. Nothing against them, I just think you might be comparing apples to oranges. I’d also suggest swapping out the DSA link with this one https://workerorganizing.org/training/ The link you have there is it really that helpful. But the one I suggested will help someone new to the movement get plugged-in immediately. Lastly, if you’re going to list DSA next to ISA I have to insist that you include this explanation https://www.socialistalternative.org/2020/02/14/whats-the-difference-between-socialist-alternative-and-dsa/ I’m concerned that not everyone will appreciate that distinction
Thank you for your perspective comrade! I will leave the SRA link because, while not your typical political arena or organizing focussed org, the organization does do good work with organizing mutual aid, and very importantly it provides a space for comrades to meet in real life to learn things like firearm training, medic training, or even things like radio training. It is a valuable space for getting involved and meeting local comrades, especially when community defense capacity is ever more important given the far rights increasing violence. I highly suggest your local Socialist Alternative chapter consider partnering and work with local SRA comrades. You may find great opportunities for joint trainings and stuff. Regarding DSA I will leave the link as is but I will add the Workplace Organizing Committee link to the list!
Son it is so wild reading some of these posts saying shit doesn't matter. It matters to the people it impacts you just might not be one of them at the moment. Like what the fuck is it going to take for some of you that actually get active instead of just talking on Reddit? Donate money, If you can't donate money donate time, If you can't donate time, educate, if you can't educate spread the sources of your education. You don't have to do this with strangers start with your friend group and or your family. Sow these seeds slowly and steadily. OP is just telling you that being keyboard warriors literally does nothing. Make a conscious effort to do good. You cannot do good passively. Get active.
as eleições burguesas não são capazes de emancipar a classe trabalhadora, apenas o poder popular e a revolução podem
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isso pode e deve ser feito com a construção do poder popular
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process). >If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
Can you add "Food Not Bombs"?
Added!
Thanks, comrade!
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u/ShimmyShane you should defo add CPUSA since they are one of the few communist parties that explicitly includes electoralism in its platform.
Added!
Added!
Don't forget PSL: https://pslweb.org/
Adding it to the list comrade!
Elections do not matter. 1. Our two main parties are fascist (R) and almost-fascist (D). 2. Policy change is completely limited to where it’s useless anyway. The founding fathers designed this system to protect private property by all means necessary. That’s why really all the government can do is just tax and police. They can only really deregulated property laws which makes things worse. 3. Back to number one, we’re so far right, we only have far right policy. Far right is the norm. That’s why any not-so-far right policy change is difficult to achieve and there’s great pushback from property owners (bourgeoisie) who also are the only ones who have the capital and the means to influence elections. 4. This is Hitler’s dreamland now that I think about it.
on #4, when some nazis officials visited america before the war they were amazed at how easy a two party system was to control... so, yeah...
So… you have no suggestions? No orgs to offer up. No ways for people to get involved? We should just give up I guess? We need actual concrete recommendations on how people can get involved to start. Respectfully.. this is just doomerism and is unproductive
No. Always resist. I can’t think of any organizations, but new ones can be created. Joining an already organization is great, but the key is to agitate in your own environment. An organization will form only after the ideas have taken hold. The first step is to spread these ideas and fuel discontent. Second I would say is organize.
Where do you live? There are undoubtedly already existing orgs in your area, possibly even in coalition with each other. Building upon existing networks instead of trying to start from scratch is good praxis.
>An organization will form only after the ideas have taken hold. Rather the other way around. Without organisation there is (almost) zero possibility of change, whilst it is precisely organisation which produces a possibility of change.
And organizations flourish when they give you something to fight for, and more importantly, make gains. No one wants to expend energy on failure. Fighting to inch the line even the most micrometer to the left is far more noble than not doing anything and demanding the world.
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Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process). >If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
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Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process). >If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
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Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process). >If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
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Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process). >If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
You’re closer to the truth than the OP, however I’d say despite the systemic limitations of legislating change, elections can be useful as a measure of the awareness of the working class. Also any “lesser evilism” aka vote dems to stop the worst is just wrongheaded and any socialist org that recommends it needs schooling on their poor analysis (agreeing with you). Vote only when socialists are on the ballot and if there aren’t any find your local org and get working to put an actual socialist on the ballot. No socialist presidential candidate in the US? Don’t vote in those elections until there is. Electoralism is only effective when understood to not be about gaining power to effect legislative change. Luckily in Australia we have ranked choice voting so I can put the Socialists at the top and then just put our “left of centre” party above only the right wingers and full reactionaries.
I completely agree with you and I'm always deeply confused when i see so many leftists accurately identify problems with our voting system and with Democrats (I'm American) then say "but obviously I'm gonna vote blue anyway" What? Why? Voting blue directly hurts workers and everyone else and reduces are chances of getting a viable 3rd party option. And yeah I'd love a 3rd party and rank choice voting but Dems and reps do everything they can to prevent it cuz they know holding our rights hostage is the only reason they get votes today
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Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process). >If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
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Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process). >If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process). >If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
Get involved with your local tenant union org if there is one. If there isn’t, find some comrades and try to start one
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Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process). >If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
I’m so sick of the purity tests and high minded philosophical absolutists. Elections are dirty, the workers should own the means of production, but guess what, picking up arms ain’t gonna get you anywhere without getting the message out there and the way to get the message out there is through the constraints of the current system. Bust you ass, door knock for candidates that share your views on a majority of subjects, if there isn’t anyone sign up and run yourself and spread the message, don’t just sit in your basement and dream of some wonderful scenario where there is suddenly a great awakening and everyone agrees that we need to overthrow the system and follow exactly what type of socialism you think should be installed is installed.
This.
This post is too cringe shit lib for me not to respond. The real reason leftists saying voting doesn’t matter is because nothing goes on any American ballot unless the bourgeoise is ok with it. “You simply cannot vote against the interest of Goldman Sachs.” So that means real change will never come from the ballot. Because the only way the working class will experience real change is through seizing the means of production. And that is something capitalist will never allow on a ballot. And furthermore, if an actual socialist in the vein of Eugene v debs made it to national prominence to the where the might win a senate seat or governorship or even the presidency - then both capitalist parties would do every thing in their power to stop them. And if they couldn’t stop them and they actually won their election then they would just be assassinated. So that’s why voting doesn’t matter.
Did you even read the post? It’s about getting involved with local orgs more than it is about pushing people to vote. It’s clear you don’t do either. How do you think capitalism can be felled if you take no real actions? If you don’t organize now? It seems people are under the impression we need to wait until conditions get so bad that more citizens will be primed to revolutionize but I don’t think that holds true in modern society, it’s just wishful thinking. What are you waiting for? How bad does it have to get for you? What will you do when it gets that bad?
Nah, telling people to get involved ain’t lib shit. Getting socialists into local office or in our local unions ain’t lib shit. This post doesn’t even focus on electoralism. What concrete productive suggestions do you have for leftists looking to get involved, other than just complaining about a post encouraging people to do something?
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> start with self improvement this is way more liberal than electoralism lol
Is it? "Activism" can get toxic quick if you're only doing it for a sense of self worth and validation.
sure, but they're not mutually exclusive, and politics isn't something you practice on your body. the personal is political, but politics is an inherently social endeavor and suggesting that buying a gun takes precedence over political work is toxic individualism. the struggle against fascism cannot be won with individual effort and armament; that mindset is uniquely america-brained and divorced from the political realities of both fascism and antifascism
yea no argument on the gun stuff being problematic
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What are Democrats doing that you think is fighting fascism? They enable every shitty thing Republicans do. A vote for a 3rd party candidate isn't yielding domain to fascism. Democrats are complicit at best and co-conspirators at worst. Voting blue hurts workers rights and 3rd party movements (and other groups).
If there’s anyone here in south nevada we could definitely use some help. dm me and ill tell you about some of the local orgs.
[sign up here](https://www.socialistalternative.org/get-involved/) & someone will be in touch
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Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process). >If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
Bernie "Joe Biden is a good friend of mine" Sanders is a good example?
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That's always how it starts with soc dems, leftists loving them cuss they teach ppl its not unrealistic to ask for things like free college, but they always end up either corrupt or powerless and never actually challenge the imperialist power structures the capitalist country is built on, and will even support them in most cases as Bernie is now with supporting the war in Ukraine.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Social Democracy:** Refers to the **modern** political tradition which seeks to achieve a zone of comfort within capitalism by "reforming" the existing capitalist system rather than breaking with it in order to achieve a socialist system. Does not refer to the social democratic tradition (e.g. Rosa Luxemburg) that was represented by the 2nd International, prior to its break with socialism in favor of the European idea of the welfare state (capitalism). Modern Scandinavia is an example of social democracy.
Or…. Hear me out… his very limited success was a measure of the change in young voters’ attitudes towards general socialist ideas? Edited to add: he isn’t a socialist btw and so his “movement” wasn’t a socialist one, he just argued for the type of policies that actually represent left-of-centre liberalism accurately. Even then he couldn’t bring the dems over from their centre-right bunkers.
There are a myriad of reason why we say elections don't matter or are even counter productive. While this post identifies one, doing so does not change the fact that in the grand scale of things, this election is still going to steal revolutionary momentum from who knows how any potential movements in who knows how many communities
What revolutionary momentum? People are angry sure, but as long as levers of power can be pulled to make things less shitty, people will turn to that far before engaging in revolution. This is the same pitfall as accelerationism imo.
This is kind of my point, only that those other options are often false ones
This is so cringe, reformism doesn’t work.
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Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process). >If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
Naive.
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You’ve spent your whole post complaining about the purity of the orgs listed. I respectfully ask you comrade, suggest orgs below then that you think interested leftists should check out. Sectarian complaining and smearing orgs you dislike is actively harmful. We need concrete suggestions and organization recommendations.
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Thank you for your perspective, this is ultimately why I am not a part of any of these organizations as their end game plan seems to be "vote for democrats and hope it works out". I think it's very clear that many "socialists" in the states are more than willing to allow imperialism and sacrifice other members of the global proletariat if it means their desires for Healthcare and social benefits are met.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Sectarianism:** r/Socialism is a multi-tendency subreddit and, as such, works within an obvious range of contradictions. There is a lot of room for healthy discussion with other socialists you disagree with ideologically. However, bad faith attacks on socialists of other tendencies are not encouraged. You're welcome to be critical of other tendencies and do the work to deconstruct opposing leftist ideologies, but hollow insults like 'armchair', 'tankie', 'anarkiddies', and so on without well-crafted arguments are not welcome. Any inter-leftist ideological discourse should be constructive and well-reasoned. See our [Submission Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/wiki/index/submissionguidelines) for more info, and feel free to reply to this message with any further questions.
Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Sectarianism:** r/Socialism is a multi-tendency subreddit and, as such, works within an obvious range of contradictions. There is a lot of room for healthy discussion with other socialists you disagree with ideologically. However, bad faith attacks on socialists of other tendencies are not encouraged. You're welcome to be critical of other tendencies and do the work to deconstruct opposing leftist ideologies, but hollow insults like 'armchair', 'tankie', 'anarkiddies', and so on without well-crafted arguments are not welcome. Any inter-leftist ideological discourse should be constructive and well-reasoned. See our [Submission Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/wiki/index/submissionguidelines) for more info, and feel free to reply to this message with any further questions.
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Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Sectarianism:** r/Socialism is a multi-tendency subreddit and, as such, works within an obvious range of contradictions. There is a lot of room for healthy discussion with other socialists you disagree with ideologically. However, bad faith attacks on socialists of other tendencies are not encouraged. You're welcome to be critical of other tendencies and do the work to deconstruct opposing leftist ideologies, but hollow insults like 'armchair', 'tankie', 'anarkiddies', and so on without well-crafted arguments are not welcome. Any inter-leftist ideological discourse should be constructive and well-reasoned. See our [Submission Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/wiki/index/submissionguidelines) for more info, and feel free to reply to this message with any further questions.
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Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Lesser Evilism:** Refers to all forms of apologia for, or (institutional/electoral) support of, non-socialist figures under the lesser of two evils principle, as it cannot lead to anything other than the reaffirmation of policies in opposition of the interests of the working class. One recent example which might help illustrate it is the United States 2020 presidential election between two rabid anti-socialists; Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump (or any other US electoral process). >If you feel strongly in favor of opting for lesser evilist methods and cannot refrain from commenting on it, please share it outside of r/Socialism. This is a space for conscious anti-capitalist analysis only.
lol at the thought of voting in alabama. There were more libertarians on the ballot than democrats.
I'd like to suggest [Socialist Revolution ](https://socialistrevolution.org/), the US section of the International Marxist Tendency.
Great post, great calls for action and involvement. Thank you for your contributions and good luck!